HAL Tipping Policy

[travelingduo]

I have been reading a lot about the new tipping policy; what it covers, what it does not. I recently recieved my documents for the 12/11 sailing on the Maasdam and they included a letter about the new policy that states: "Good service starts with the crewmembers you may never have the opportunity to meet: the baker who works during the night to provide you with fresh breads and pastries for breakfast or the housekeeper who keeps out lounges in meticulous condition. They also benefit from the gratutities included with your bill." It goes on to say that "To ensure the efforts of these crewmembers are also recognized and to discourage solicitation of guests, dining and cabin stewards are required to turn in any tips they receive directly from those guests who have removed or reduced the gratuities on their onboard bills." This leads one to believe that everyone is taken care of -- just like in the old days when they had a no tipping required policy. I certainly wouldn't want to "stiff" anyone deserving of a gratuity (ex. room service waiters)
:confused: Does anyone else read it differently? Thanks.

[Krazy Kruizers]

There have been a lot of threads in the last few months concerning HAL's new tipping policy.

As your letter indicates - it is $10 per day per person and is added onto your shipbaord account.

If you choose to remove it, then any monies you give to anyone (cabin stewards, dining room waitstaff, etc.) has to be turned into the front office and those monies will be split among EVERYONE.

HAL is now ensuring that the bakers, floor cleaners, those who polish the brass railings, etc - will all get a bit of the $10 auto tips.

[cruzincurt]

We left the "auto tip" on, added an extra $10 in envelopes to hand to the steward, waiter and assn't waiter. And tipped $2 for each room service visit.

[Orcrone]

My opinion is (and it's just my opinion) is that I would tip extra for service above and beyond. I would also tip extra for service that I specifically request. For example, a tip for room service or for the spa personnel.

[RuthC]

If you choose to remove it, then any monies you give to anyone (cabin stewards, dining room waitstaff, etc.) has to be turned into the front office and those monies will be split among EVERYONE.Or reduce it, too. Let's not forget that you cannot reduce the service charge due to poor service by one steward without it effecting all the intended recipients.

[Kami's pal]

I have been appalled by this policy since I encountered it on HAL's NOORDAM in May. I still do not understand why the ordinary incentives i.e. wages, aren't being used as incentives for the "behind the scenes" crew. I have never tipped a chef, a window washer, a laundry service for linens in an hotel. My take on this is that HAL has found a way to increase the take home pay for some employees by decreasing the gratuities off the ones we would usually tip, i.e. the staff we meet.

This caused great consternation aboard in May as we passengers realized that if we wanted to recognize exemplary service, we were being forced to first contribute to the pool of tips.

I have been monitoring this board since June, and I have seen a lot of posts indicating less satisfaction with dining and cabin service. I haven't noticed any indications that the satisfaction with cleanliness or food taste has improved since we have been giving incentives to the cleaners or kitchen staff.

[elmorejj]

KamisPal, I think this probably started when HAL started charging all of the crew for their airfares to and from their homes. Given the low pay I assume the behind the scenes crew receive, It would be a hard thing for them to spring for their airfares without receiving some additional monies from somewhere. In other words, we are just subsidising their take home pay. JMHO.....jean :cool:

[Yknot]

I cruised through the Panama Canal this year on the Oosterdam and got the info on the tipping policy. I thought it was OK and was then surprised to hear several passengers throughout the voyage continually bringing up what to tip and to who, and what would happen to the money etc., ad nauseum.

I thought it was quite clear, that HAL and their crew had a gratuity arrangement and I never would give it another thought. It appears to be very much in line with standard European practice where service charges are included. There is simply no need to tip extra anywhere at anytime on board.

[lknick]

The so-called tipping policy is nothing more than a service charge, or if you like, the transfer of labor costs directly to the passengers. In this way, advertised prices can be kept low as many buy cruises the same way they read a menu in a restaurant..from right [price first] to left [item.]

If you want to insure improved service, you can tip at the beginning of the cruise...but then some would consider this a bribe.

It makes no difference to your cruise experience who gets the tips, how much pay they receive, or the number of children and wives [Muslims are allowed up to four] they have at home. But for some reason, we on this board think we must debate an agreement reached between HAL and the crew's unions.

[tommy]

I think it does make a difference,of who gets it and how much.It seems to have made a difference in the service or lack of service since the new tipping policy has started. TOM

[Kami's pal]

KamisPal, I think this probably started when HAL started charging all of the crew for their airfares to and from their homes. Given the low pay I assume the behind the scenes crew receive, It would be a hard thing for them to spring for their airfares without receiving some additional moneys from somewhere. In other words, we are just subsidizing their take home pay. JMHO.....jean :cool:

Apparently, once upon a time, the fare for the trip home was an incentive for the crew to work the full term of their contract. Now, that incentive is gone, and I/12 per month of their revenue from the pooled gratuities are kept back to pay for their homeward fare. Also, there are other deductions: a fee owed to the agency they applied with for help getting the job, money promised to repay expenses for education, references etc. and, of course, deductions authorized by the crew to be banked for their loved ones at home. In some cases, (re Ross Klein, Cruise Ship Blues), many of the crew come aboard owing so much money that they are in effect indentured. They also pay for laundry of uniforms, and I suspect, must launder their owen clothes, linens, towels, jeans. If the only machines are in coin operated, that would be costly too.

So we are not just "subsidizing their take home pay"; we may be cooperating with a system set up to take advantage of a desperately vulnerable people who agreed to new contract terms while far way from home, in the middle of a contract, and without fully understanding the consequences. I hated being co-opted into this exploitation, as I was in May, when I only learned about the new contract terms after I had made my final payment.

I agree that it is no more my business whether my cabin steward is supporting 4 wives than it is whether my lawyer, dentist, doctor, legislative representative, teacher, accountant ... is supporting 3 families by paying child support and alimony, while he begins his fourth marriage. Both these people are supporting their children and spouses from revenues generated by exchanging their work skills for my dollars. But as an ethical responsible world citizen, I hope to insist that those who work in the services I chose to patronize are treated fairly. Thus, I agitated for the union of school aides in my school board: first that they had a right to unionize, second that they had a right to bargain as a union for incremental raises based on experience and performance review, with a formative process (proper training) before being summarily fired, wages scales, working conditions, and so on. I have informed HAL in writing that I will no longer cruise on a HAL ship where the crew are forced into this contract because no less harmful options were available. As I understand it, some crew have opted to use hard earned savings to leave early. After all, they have to pay their fare anyway. The highly trained very experienced may be able to find employment on lines like Crystal, with its shorter contract, higher ratio of crew to passenger. At least, they are making choices instead of staying trapped in a contract that may not be the one they signed before May, 2004. Some are still trying to decide if the new contract is going to deliver a decent pay check in the long term.

Those who agree with HAL's new policy will be able to influence whether HAL loses "old hands" and is constantly having to train new crew. Since we now know that the initial price is not the final price, we will either adopt a pooled tipping policy where we pay the extra incentives to all the behind the scenes staff and then pay gratuities to those even more dependent on our tips as wages. It's a doudle dipping into our pockets.

[FrankenLouis]

I just do not see the big deal here folks. As one person said.... call it a service charge and be done with it. Is this really such a big deal? I guess so from all the people that seem so upset about it. As for people saying the service they feel has gone down hill since this all started I also have my doubts about this. People in general and esp when they travel they tend to make all these general statements. I have heard people on a ship yelling about how poor the service was because they had only 3 towels in the cabin instead of 4 ! When they called it took 35 minutes for the 4th towel to arrive! ( like this would make or break your cruise experience). Sadly enough for some it does.
It seems so clear and simple to me. The service charge is applied. If you do not want this then take it off. If you want to keep the service charge and ALSO add something extra you are also free to do so.
I just wish that people would start seeing the bigger picture. I can think of a few million people who would love to have such a problem to worry about. Instead they are worried about food for their kids, a place to live for the family, and clean water to drink. Please.... go on these cruises with your family, loved ones, husbands, wives, etc and have the time of your life! This is all such small stuff in the big picture. Why let $10 per person per day ruin a one week or longer cruise you have spent far more on.
Happy Cruising.

[lknick]

Everyone wants to forget that the hotel staff is now, and has been since the early 1970s when the Dutch hotel was replaced by Indonesians, represented by a union.

These are not people who are without an organized representation being put upon. It took over a year to negotiate the current agreement whereby the pooling of tips came about. Like all union agreements, the rank and file approved it. Obviously, democracy is bad when the outcome is not what you want. To quote one of the Brit tabloids: "How can 52 million Americans be so stupid."

[DFD1]

Of the many on here, this is the best and most thought-out thread about the new tipping policy I have read. Thanks to everyone.

IMO....When the incentive (i.e. the tip) is taken away and turned into a salary increase administered by the company after being forceably collected from the passengers, the quality of the service will invaribly decline.

The evidence of this decline is beginning to come in. The quality of service is down, not only in the dining room where it has been attributed to staff cut backs, but it is also down in the bars, lounges, and most importantly, in the steward service to the staterooms.

Further, there are many credible reports that some of the smile has gone out of the crew, that there is evidence of a new indifferentness in the crew's attitude.

The incentive for the crew to excell is gone.

Some have said that this reasoning is faulty in that service is excellent on some of the smaller, more expensive (exclusive?) cruise lines where tipping is included. I don't think this argument is valid because those cruise lines educate and acclimate (sp) their crew from the beginning not to expect tips. In other words, the mindset is different.

Thanks for listening. I wish HAL had not changed the tipping policy and just have increased the cruise fare enough to pay the baker and the brass polisher a little more.

[Sue's Mom]

I wish HAL had not changed the tipping policy and just have increased the cruise fare enough to pay the baker and the brass polisher a little more.

Hear, hear. I would prefer it that way too. Thinking of what I see as "unfair wages" makes me a bit uncomfortable. I am a believer in justice and I think that must have something to do with it.

We will be tipping extra on our upcoming cruise and not to get better service.

[jollycruiser]

From the beginning when the new tipping policy was announced I felt that service would suffer because all the incentive to do a great job, then get personally rewarded by the pax, is all but gone. The staff will basicly get the same amount of money whether they go out of their way and make the extra effort or not. It is just basic human psychology. Human nature unfortunately for the most part will always migrate to the lowest common denomenator when all else remains equal. To bad for HAL and especially for us PAX.

[tommy]

I agree totally with the last 3 post,and stated this on returning from Oct sailing on the Zuiderdam and took some hits for stating it.It is also evident that they have cut back on personel in some departments.And its to bad because IMO that was thier biggest perk over other lines. TOM

[johno95]

I don't agree with this new tipping policy.

However, those who excel will get tipped extra (in addition to the mandatory), and will continue to be great in dealing with passengers.

however, even if extra tipping was forbidden, some workers would continue to excel because their freindly and hard working disposition won't change because of a tip, or lack thereof. It is just their nature, how they have been raised by their parents, and the country they are from.

The staff will basicly get the same amount of money whether they go out of their way and make the extra effort or not. It is just basic human psychology. Human nature unfortunately for the most part will always migrate to the lowest common denomenator when all else remains equal. To bad for HAL and especially for us PAX.

[tankerjo2]

Hear, hear. I would prefer it that way too. Thinking of what I see as "unfair wages" makes me a bit uncomfortable. I am a believer in justice and I think that must have something to do with it.

We will be tipping extra on our upcoming cruise and not to get better service.

What are "unfair wages" and by what standards are they unfair?? Maybe things have changed bigtime but most of the people I talked too working on HAL as well as several other cruiselines we have cruised with since the early 90's were more than tickled pink to have their jobs.
Sure they worked long hours and missed their families but you know so did I during my working days in the Military, i.e. low pay, long hours and away from loved ones for extended periods of time but it was a choice I made and so do they. I appreciate what they do for us when we travel, have no problem with an additional gratuity at the end of the cruise but refuse to feel sorry for them.

[jhannah]

So we are not just "subsidizing their take home pay"; we may be cooperating with a system set up to take advantage of a desperately vulnerable people who agreed to new contract terms while far way from home, in the middle of a contract, and without fully understanding the consequences.I could hardly disagree more. You are, IMO, dissing the crew by indicating that they are ignorant of what they're doing. They are very bright people. Give them a little credit in the intelligence department. And as noted above, they and their union had to agree to all this before it was implemented.

And so far as reduced service is concerned, this was noted many, many months before the auto-tipping was instituted. It began as cutbacks in staffing levels were made for financial reasons.

[lknick]

When the saving of our "little brown brothers" [not my term, but T. R. Roosevelt's] mentality takes over, all reality goes out of the windows.

Completely forgotten is these people are represented by a rather active union and are not stupid.

Completely forgotten is that these people have some of the highest paying jobs when compared to the jobs available in their home countries.

Completely forgotten is that more than half sign up year after year to work for HAL and advance through the ranks if they are capable.

We just get stuff like this: "cooperating with a system set up to take advantage of a desperately vulnerable people who agreed to new contract terms while far way from home, in the middle of a contract, and without fully understanding the consequences."

The staff is NOT our "little brown brothers" in need of our protection, nor do they need our sympathy. They are hard working people who have made a choice about their occupation and are well compensated. Believe it or not, a cabin steward makes more in disposable income than a house cleaner in the USA.

And if you're concerned about service levels decaying, bribe the staff you want to pay attention to you.

[bobpatj]

lknick -
Well said! Thank you.

[travelingduo]

As I read the threads relative to the question I posed, I think there was some major misunderstanding. I have no issue with tipping or the automatic charge. My only concern was whether or not it included everyone, including some of the folks one normally tips like room service. I don't want to "miss" recognizing someone who deserves it. I also have no problem with giving extra-- I am just truing to discern the new policy. My reading of the letter lead me to believe that it was just like the old days-- "no tipping required" but now there will be a small $10 pp per day charge on your account.

[Opinions]

As a lifetime union member I realize there are "real" unions and "company" unions...I often wonder what type the HAL shipboard employees have...They certainly do not have a 40 hour week or the benefits "real" unions have.

[Aussie Gal]

Iknick and Vegas Jim,

I agree with both of your comments. The crew on board HAL are certainly not unintelligent in fact they would not be working on the ships if they were. First of all they have to be able to speak English which is the hardest language in the world to master.

Secondly they know they have very good jobs. If only you could see the conditions and wages that Indonesians who live and work in their own country receive, you would then all realize that the crew on board the HAL ships have it "made". Sure they do work long hours but they do receive very good wages and those wages can keep and educate their families in a way they would never have dreamed.

I have no problems with the new system. As Iknick said in an earlier post it is really a service charge and we have paid that in most European countries. On the Prinsendam at the disembarkation talk, the Cruise Director did stress that the new tipping policy would only work if we all left it on. He did not mention about extra tipping etc.

We felt that the service on board the Prinsendam was second to none. Perhaps we are not so demanding as some people and do not expect something done within the snap of a finger, we just like good service and that is what we received. We also treat them as human beings and always remember to thank them, not like some people on board the ship.

Jennie

[bonnyweed]

This gets to the part of cruising that is somewhat unsavory. If the servers and housekeeping staff were paid by U.S. standards of a living wage (or even minimum wage) cruises would cost so much that people like me would never be able to afford to pay for the corresponding increase in cruise fares.
I love to cruise but don't need a high level of "service" to keep me happy. I don't know which is worse....service staff who were (?falsely) smiling and friendly in the past in anticipation of a gratuity OR the current situation where servers are, reportedly, less "friendly" because they know the gratuity outcome is guaranteed to a certain extent.
Don't get me wrong; I expect civility and a reasonable level of service. The crew deserves my civility and respect in return. I have felt just a bit uncomfortable in the past with the expectations of some other passengers that the crew ought to treat each passenger like some long-lost relative. It's a bit cloying and not really what I need to have a great vacation. I don't need the multi-national farewell song with lighters held high into the air, the baked Alasksa parade, towels tied into bunnies, etc. I think that is a bit demeaning to the crew.
Similarly, I don't find it professional for crew to unload on passengers about the miseries of their existence, the travails of airfare, uniforms and laundry.
I'm going to leave the auto-tip in place and enjoy my trip.

[BorderLady]

As a lifetime union member I realize there are "real" unions and "company" unions...I often wonder what type the HAL shipboard employees have...They certainly do not have a 40 hour week or the benefits "real" unions have.If they had an American-type union, each of their positions would take about three or four people to fill one job. The cruiselines wouldn't stay in business long if that many berths were filled with crew.

Face it, these folks aren't dummies. The crew members are members of respected unions (the Filipino Hotel Workers Union and the Indonesian Hotel & Cruise Ship Workers Union) and are part of a larger international union. The rank and file took a year to analyze the contract, then signed onto it and are willing to live with it. (It's my observation that it's the passengers who are doing all the hand-wringing.)

Most people who go to a job every day think they deserve a better deal than what they're getting. That's why its called "work" instead of "vacation".

Instead of agonizing over the crew conditions, why not pay attention to HAL's service level? If it's not satisfactory (for whatever root cause), simply give your business to some other line.

[Santa Fe Jim]

From the beginning when the new tipping policy was announced I felt that service would suffer because all the incentive to do a great job, then get personally rewarded by the pax, is all but gone. The staff will basicly get the same amount of money whether they go out of their way and make the extra effort or not. It is just basic human psychology. Human nature unfortunately for the most part will always migrate to the lowest common denomenator when all else remains equal. To bad for HAL and especially for us PAX.I presume you do as little as possible in order to get by, based on your statement. However, I've worked for 48 years, largely with people who, thank goodness, have not had the lack of personal pride in their work that you exhibit.

I just returned from the Zaandam and, based on their performance, gave the cabin and dining room stewards tips in addition to the auto-tip. They were certainly the equal, and in some cases, superior to the service I received on previous cruises. I simply could not think of anything that my cabin steward could have done in addition to what he did. The dining room staff (except for the head waiter for my section) did not have the time to talk that had been possible on earlier cruises, but their service was flawless. The wine steward did have the time to discuss choices and was both knowledgable and cordial, which was not always the case in the past.

I may at some point receive less than excellent service, but unless it is obviously an individual's problem, I would not attribute it to "human nature ... always migrat[ing] to the lowest common denomenator [sic] when all else remains equal."

SFJ

[iluvcruzin]

I admit that I didn't care for the policy before I sailed HAL. I thought it was was more like a service charge and they were forcing me to pay it although calling it a "tip".

However.. After thinking about it.. Most HAL sailings from my observation have some sort of shipboard credit promotions. This basically covers some if not all of the fee. Also, once I boarded, I could think of many of the staff that served me who would not have benefited from a tip as I would have needed to bring a box of envelopes otherwise.

I agree the baker, the painter etc.. are behind the scenes and services should be included in the fare. It's those that one encounters on a daily basis that deserve reward.

JMHO (and I don't agree with paying a tip in advance to ensure good service. It's never been a proven fact).

[jollycruiser]

I presume you do as little as possible in order to get by, based on your statement. However, I've worked for 48 years, largely with people who, thank goodness, have not had the lack of personal pride in their work that you exhibit.

SFJ

Actually I do the best job I can possibly do because I will be and have been rewarded for my efforts. Didn't gain cruising status by doing as little as possible. By the way you made my whole point, the loss of direct incentive to the crew from the pax through tipping has been removed. The deteriortion in service has been well documented here.

I am pleased for you that you have not encountered any deterioration of service as has been reported by many pax on this board. May your good luck continue.

[Opinions]

If they had an American-type union, each of their positions would take about three or four people to fill one job. The cruiselines wouldn't stay in business long if that many berths were filled with crew.

.
Don't paint all "American" unions with the same brush...There are many hard working union members...The majority of my union were piece workers...We only got paid for work performed...Many police and firemen are union...Do you feel we have too many of those?

[lknick]

As a lifetime union member I realize there are "real" unions and "company" unions...I often wonder what type the HAL shipboard employees have...They certainly do not have a 40 hour week or the benefits "real" unions have.Since this is not the first time you have posted a similar thought, I just wonder what your definitional difference is?

Are you saying 'company' unions do not bargain in good faith and are under the thumb of the company, ie just a show organization?

Or are you saying there is difference between the benefits the members receive?

And how do you know the difference based on outcome?

Or are you just saying 'their union is not as good as my union', ie an extension of the 'little brown brothers' theme?

[marybeach]

We are in a great debate in our county and city goverment with accommodation taxes, and I'm mulling the similarities with some of the ideas in this thread. I have been reading the tipping posts, and finally decided to offer this thought. JMHO.

I am so disappointed that this new tipping system seems to be such a failure to the waitstaff and stewards we see most often. Surely, HAL must understand that the frontline staff are the ones we interact with and remember. If they need to charge $50/pp more on the cruise upfront to pay the staff, so be it. Then, let us tip the people as we wish. The long standing advertised and promoted policy of "no tipping required" on HAL to "autotip" change was drastic and apparantly not very well thought out, and it is showing in the service, from what those of you who have sailed over the past six months or so are saying.

I also question the fairness when there is the same charge for the "steerage" (as one of the frequent posters calls her usual inside cabin) as for the Suite passengers. 10% of a $5000 cabin is $500 - versus - 10% for a $1500 cabin is $150. Do the suites get more service, perks and benefits? From what people rave about the suites, apparently so, in that they are showered with private parties, cocktail receptions, special lounge, special concierge, and other this and that.

So, are the inside cabins subsidizing the suites service charge? Using the above comparisons, the Suites, therefore, have a 4% add on ($10pp/day/10 day cruise or $200/$5000), while the insides pay 13.33% ($200/$1500). What is fair about that? Would you charge the same property tax for a $1,000,000 home as you would for a $50,000 condo? Is the autotip a service charge? Is it a tip [to insure promptness] (not by definition it seems)?

I've never seen this theory put forth. Just playing with numbers, as I am prone to do. Try working with a few of the policy wonks in government and see the numbers churned.

Oh, and South Carolina is a "right to work" state! (for you union guys)

[lknick]

An interesting concept of taxing passengers based on accomidations.

Raising base rates will never fly due to the propensity of TAs promoting cruises based on the base price. Unlike the airlines who have discovered TAs do them no good, cruise lines are tied to the TA community. The attempt at eliminating them by Renaissance was one of the reasons leading to Renaissance's failure.and apparantly not very well thought out, and it is showing in the service, from what those of you who have sailed over the past six months or so are saying. I know it is fashionable to place blame, but the fact, as I understand them, was management at HAL reviewed the alternatives for almost two years, and the review led to some managerial resignations.

[chimera]

Marybeach-

Where did 10% come from? The auto tip is $10.00 per person per day- the same for anyone from the penthouse down to "steerage."

[lknick]

Marybeach-

Where did 10% come from? The auto tip is $10.00 per person per day- the same for anyone from the penthouse down to "steerage."That's the posters point. In her eyes, we all should pay the same percentage, and not have the suite crowd pay less on a percentage basis.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I've read this thread through and have to say I agree with lknick 100%:) .

And I still don't understand why HAL took this route when Celebrity's method is working beautifully and no one is upset by it. I wrote HAL asking if there was any chance they might reconsider this "forced" service charge giving all of us the opportunity to choose between tipping on our own and the automated tip with no repercussions for the staff (which is what Celebrity does). They wrote back the same rhetoric that comes with the documents and is on their website.

However, I also know that HAL does read the CC boards so while I used to think this subject was over discussed here, I now believe that voicing our displeasure with the system from time to time can do no harm.

Again, lknick, right on with all your comments.

[marybeach]

Ikick, thank you for reading the post as it was written. You understood my theory. BTW, I am not espousing the theory, just conjecturing. (I'm one of those mid-level folks who could swing either way.) [Mary holds finger to the wind.]

The 10% was a theoretical assumption of base accommodation surcharge applied to two theoretical cabin costs. I was using the low end for hypothetical tip charges...you could easily use 5%, 15% or 20%. Then the numbers get even more interesting....and I would need a spread sheet!
Hey, I can figure commissions and overrides in my head, though!!! ;)

[Opinions]

[QUOTE=lknick]

Are you saying 'company' unions do not bargain in good faith and are under the thumb of the company, ie just a show organization?

Or are you saying there is difference between the benefits the members receive?

And how do you know the difference based on outcome?

QUOTE]

I can see the difference in wages and benefits for real union represented workers on U.S flagged ships...If you are satisfied with a "company" union,congratulations...But I personally prefer a independent organization to represent me.

[lknick]

I can see the difference in wages and benefits for real union represented workers on U.S flagged ships...If you are satisfied with a "company" union,congratulations...But I personally prefer a independent organization to represent me.A few facts, please, such as ships with hotel staff that are U.S. flagged, annual wages, benefits, etc.

Or is this like good writing and pornography...[To quote our Supreme Court] 'I know it when I see it'.

[Opinions]

A few facts, please, such as ships with hotel staff that are U.S. flagged, annual wages, benefits, etc.

.

Pride of Aloha U.S. flagged
Starting Salary stewards $2900 per month plus tips (no pooling)
Benefits of all U.S. labor laws including overtime.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[lknick]

The Pride of Aloha [a rename] came into service during July 2004 and does 7 day enter-island cruises in Hawaii. So far, prices have been high and occupancy below expectations.

So guess we'll just have to wait. The last American flagged ships in Hawaii are no longer with us.

[madaroch]

I am only just hearing about this tipping policy now and I have to say I think it's a bit much. $10/day/passenger, does that include for the 3rd person in a room too. What if the child is 2 years of age. I can't find a stipulation in the policy there. So for those of you travelling with 3 people for 10 days it amounts to $300.00. For those of us who are Canadian it isn't $10 a day it's $13.00 a day. That is considerably more. That is something to wonder about. We will decide at the end of our cruise if we agree with the $390/Cdn charge if it was worth it.

Then an additional 15% gratuity for all bar service. That is going to start people coming in with their own liquor at each port. That is atrocious. The only good thing about it is my husband won't drink so much but now I have to very cautious about even having a daily special cause their $6.00 per day, again amounting to almost $7.50 Cdn. Now I'm sure so smart alec out there is going to suggest that I am being cheap and that I shouldn't worry about this when compared to what people around the world have as their personal issues, but we ultimately are all looking out for #1 aren't we. I would dearly love to give me room attendant a tip at the end of the cruise and always have and it has been substantial, as well as the serving staff. We make a point of going to those who we saw put out just a little bit more irregardless of what their job was. My husband is a contractor and one day leaned over the pier when at port and handed both of the guys painting the side of the ship $40 each.

But this nickle and diming us to death after we have chosen Holland America for years because of their no tipping policy which allowed us to tip those who were there for us during the cruise. Even if I accept the charge at the end I certainly cannot justify giving more and that is ashame.

[Esme]

madaroch - as long as you leave the $10.00 per day per person on your bill, you can still give extra money to whoever you want. They will not have to pool it. However, if the $10.00 is removed, then anything extra they get they have to put into the pool.

As far as I am concerned, the $10.00 isn't that much more than we used to give - $3.50 per day for cabin steward and dining room steward + 2.00 per day for the Asst. waiter. We always added to this anyway, so don't see a difference. I don't know what you would give for a 2 year old child, but I would give them something extra - don't think the $10.00 applies to them, but I am not sure.

Got our first taste of old man winter here in Ontario yesterday and of course lots of accidents. I know you have already had snow. :)

[lknick]

It is my understanding that the service charge applies to all passenger, regardless of age.

An any or all of the service charge can be removed if you're not satisfied.

[johno95]

i am a steerage guy. having said that, i agree that those with expensive accomodations pay a very low percentage tip. very interesting point.

but i must remind you that these big spenders are paying a lot to have their butler, afternoon tea, complimentary parties, etc. (not really complimentary at all.)

so they are indeed paying. and it probably is the rare case when a big spender doesn't give their butler or waiter a little something extra in an exvelope at disembarkation. their total tip may not be 13% of their fare. but that's ok.

John


So, are the inside cabins subsidizing the suites service charge? Using the above comparisons, the Suites, therefore, have a 4% add on ($10pp/day/10 day cruise or $200/$5000), while the insides pay 13.33% ($200/$1500)...

[peaches from georgia]

Why should the automatic gratuity % be based on the cost of the cabin or suite? It should be like it is- per person. Whether a couple is in an inside cabin or an S suite the room stewards are still serving 2 people. It has nothing to do with the cost of the accomodations, so why should the % be higher for a suite? By that logic the % would increase with the fare for every class of cabin, not just for suites.

John, there are no butlers on HAL ships. If we were to order 'afternoon tea' (which I actually have never seen being served, but I'm sure some pax do have it) it would be through room service and we would tip at the time of service like everyone using room service probably does or should do. What's the difference if the RS steward is taking a full course dinner to an inside cabin or afternoon tea to a suite? The dinner is probably more work anyway, not less. I think suites use less room service to begin with because of the Neptune Lounge. We do tip the concierges separately and I think most suite pax do likewise. Dining stewards have the same amount of work whether their tables are suite pax or not so there is no more effort expended for a suite pax than anyone else.

So, I don't get your point. :rolleyes:

[lknick]

Heather, I think the initiator of this idea proposes a flat percentage of the cabin cost, ie you pay more for your cabin, and you pay more for the service. My interpretation of the concept is ‘those who can afford it should pay more.’

One of the perks of S and PH is to have hors d'oevres, afternoon tea etc served in your abode. This is arranged through the Neptune concierge and delivered by room service. Whether you tip or not is a personal decision, just like whether you tip roomservice for any services they provide.

[DaveOKC]

I think the new tipping policy is better for the stewarts in general - I bet they get fewer people stiffing them now then before - some people were confused with the old policy of "tipping not required".
As to suite customers tipping more - we use the services of the Neptune Lounge staff and always tip them and will continue to do so with the new policy. Same goes for room service - yes we likely use them more but we always tip them when they deliver. As to the room steward - I agree they should get a bit more since the rooms are twice as large and there is more to clean. Plus they handle the "free" laundry service for us.
Of course these extra tips depend on the level of service we receive, but this has never been a problem in the past.
DaveOKC

[trubey]

i am a steerage guy. having said that, i agree that those with expensive accomodations pay a very low percentage tip. very interesting point.

John
Don't you think also, perhaps, that some of the (outrageous?) price of the suites pays for a good chunk of us steerage folks' fare? What do they get that's five times as good for their money? A little more cabin room? A free ticket to an 'exclusive' bar?

Lane

Hey, Iknick! I love your new logo!

[Cambridgedons]

We will soon be cruising Zuiderdam and have taken a great interest in the BIG TIPPING DEBATE. We shall be opting out for the following reasons.

1. If I am going to reward an individual for special service I object to VISA/Mastercard getting their hand in the till first by way of service charge/commision.

2. I am not convinced and they would not admit, that HAL do not 'skim off' a service charge for all this money handling or retain the interest.

3. The trite and patronising letter from Mr Stein Kruse, HAL President and Chief Operating Officer and his reference to crew members and bakers. The baker does a job for which HAL should pay the going rate. Likewise, the the crew member that fixes the ropes. Question for Mr Kruse and the Cruise Directors that promote the same tune. Do they tip the checkout staff for being available and kind enough to ring up their purchases when at the supermarket ?

We totally agree with those people who make the point that this is just another way of boosting revenue and keeping the wage bill low. Likewise, tipping is personal and I will not be filling out any forms to explain my personal actions.

We had a truly delightful cruise on Amsterdam to Alaska a few years back - with a 'no tipping' policy, even then, we made personal 'gifts' to those special crew members that made the cruise 'truly delightful' and I have little doubt everyone was happy and we will continue this practice. As for handing over personal tips to the pool I shall make it clear to the individuals concerned that I do not give tips nudge,nudge,wink,wink.

It is regrettable that HAL has introduced this contentious practice while more and more cruise lines are adopting the 'Gratuities included' approach which leaves everyone knowing where they stand on recognition of personal service.

[johnnycruise]

Do you really think if you hand an employee $50 at the end of your cruise he will turn it in to the "tipping pool?" Besides, they probably won't know until you're off the ship whether or not you went to the front desk on the next-to-last day and changed your gratuity to zero. I guess they could circulate a list of "non-tippers" among the staff or plaster a "most wanted" style poster of noncompliants in the staff break room. Still that would be unlikely to persuade the guy with $50 to share it with the baker (even with a supposed threat of termination). Who would know anyway?


As to the argument of a service charge based on the room rate, many hotels in the Caribbean and Asia add a 10% (rather than $10) service charge; the people in the more expensive rooms pay more in service charges. If HAL did that, high-end customers would leave them in droves.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Cambridgedons, I'm not sure how long you've been reading these boards, but believe me every point you state has been touched on. Personally, I couldn't agree with you more on all points.

However, I don't think your "wink wink nudge nudge" ploy will work because I'm afraid the crew has been "threatened" in more ways than one of the repercussions. If you've removed the "service charge" (which is what I call it since it's not a tip), than you are not safe giving them a tip on the side. The only way you can do that and be assured they can keep it is to leave the charge, chalk it up as part of the cruise cost, and tip as you always would. That way you'll be assured they can keep the tips.

Obviously there are all sort of ways you can think of for them to get away with it. They can say the cash came from a cabin where they know the service charge was left in place on the account. But this is devious and I don't think these are devious people. I could be wrong.

In any case, I don't think you want to put these people in the difficult and awkward position of having to lie. Frankly, one reason I am so against the new policy is that I think it invites inpropriety.

[lknick]

It is regrettable that HAL has introduced this contentious practice while more and more cruise lines are adopting the 'Gratuities included' approach which leaves everyone knowing where they stand on recognition of personal service.Tell me who so I can select them for cruising. The only one I know of is Radisson.

[johnnycruise]

Tell me who so I can select them for cruising. The only one I know of is Radison.Raddison, Silversea, SeaDream, and one listed in your signature (Seabourn). The practice is certainly not widespread and limited to luxury lines. Windstar is "Tipping Not Required."

[HeatherInFlorida]

Raddison, Silversea, SeaDream, and one listed in your signature (Seabourn). The practice is certainly not widespread and limited to luxury lines. Windstar is "Tipping Not Required."
Windstar is HAL. It's only a matter of time before they switch over to the new policy.

[johnnycruise]

I'm hoping they won't. Anyway, they won't before my cruise in two weeks:) They actually may be moving in the opposite direction. In 2005 they will have ten Signature Voyages which include soft drinks, beer, wine with dinner, cabin bar set-up and a shore excursion. If those cruises are a big draw perhaps they'll expand it to their entire schedule.

[lknick]

Raddison, Silversea, SeaDream, and one listed in your signature (Seabourn). The practice is certainly not widespread and limited to luxury lines. Windstar is "Tipping Not Required."Thank you. Tipping is so unimportant to me, I had forgotten Seabourn.

[sandydownunder]

We sailed on Carnival Ledgend's inaugural Transatlantic Crossing in 2002. The cruise was promoted in Australia and the price included gratuities. At that stage we had 100+ on HAL. When I commented that it was unusual to have the gratuities included I was told "that's because Australians don't tip". Australians are generous people, but tipping is not part of our culture. I'd rather know the true price of the cruise and have the gratuities included, then be able to reward someone for exceptional service.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I'm hoping they won't. Anyway, they won't before my cruise in two weeks:) They actually may be moving in the opposite direction. In 2005 they will have ten Signature Voyages which include soft drinks, beer, wine with dinner, cabin bar set-up and a shore excursion. If those cruises are a big draw perhaps they'll expand it to their entire schedule.Johnnycruise, completely off subject and nothing to do with anything, but I have to tell you I envy you sailing on Windstar so soon. Our favorite cruise of all time was on Windstar Cruises (the "Wind Song") sailing the islands of French Polynesia ... absolutely beyond description. It's a whole 'nother way of cruising.

Have a wonderful time and I hope you're right about going the "other direction" ... Windstar has always set itself apart as much as possible from HAL (and even moreso from Carnival:o )

[johnnycruise]

Thank you, Heather. I'll provide a full report on the Windstar page upon my return.