Bad News For Those Desiring No Kids Aboard

[Arubalisa]

Although not new information, IMHO, interesting article, considering the number of posts here on CC, pro and con, regarding children on HAL.


Club HAL Update (http://www.avidcruiser.com/news/newsdetail1.php?NID=2137)
http://www.avidcruiser.com/news/newsdetail1.php?NID=2137

Two weeks after Holland America LIne announced its fleet-wide Club HAL upgrades, we sailed the Zuiderdam's seven-day Western Caribbean itinerary. On one of the final "family heavy" loads before the school year begins, 428 kids ages 17 and under were on board. Only a few weeks earlier, Zuiderdam carried a record (for the ship) 465 kids. Clearly, Holland America Line is achieving its goal to grab a slice of the family cruise market and, as my nine-year-old daughter and I witnessed during our seven nights on board, the line is developing a strong family cruise program. "We're finally getting into the kids' business," said Rose Vega-Luna, supervisor of youth programs for Holland America Line. Vega-Luna, whose position was created in November 2003, said new features recently announced will be rolled out on all ships during the next two years. Among those new features: age-specific facilities on all ships, including new teen areas; and a new minimum age (3 instead of 5) for Club HAL participants. Ryndam will be the first ship to carry the full complement of Club HAL enhancements when it emerges from drydock in October. "We're focusing initially on the ships that do not have any kids facilities at all," Vega-Luna said. During our full-capacity sailing, the average age of passengers was 46, skewed because of the number of children on board. Our cruise had a younger feel about it than a traditional Holland America Line cruise. HAL has also just announced a program of added amenities for families holding reunions. Families booking five staterooms or more may receive benefits such as special group pricing; unlimited soft drinks; a family photo per stateroom; and a choice of either dinner at the Pinnacle Grill Restaurant or, on Caribbean cruises, free rentals of watersports gear on Half Moon Cay. Families booking ten or more staterooms or five staterooms or more on a holiday cruise in 2004 will receive one complimentary upgrade from an outside stateroom to a verandah for the head of the family.
Booking Tip Diderik Van Regemorter, Zuiderdam's hotel manager, recommends families of four or more book an inside cabin for the kids and an outside cabin for the adults, preferably close to one another. Such configurations can be found on many decks throughout the Zuiderdam. "I see a lot of parents who, after a few days, ask if there isn't an extra cabin available so that they can put some distance between them and their kids," he says. Though third and fourth passengers sharing the same stateroom generally receive a discounted rate, cabins can become crowded when more than three share staterooms.


My emphasis through bold print is only to empasize the subject of the article. No editorial opinion intended. The "link" is supplied through a hyperlink by clicking on Club HAL Update (http://www.avidcruiser.com/news/newsdetail1.php?NID=2137) should you choose not to do so I have also added http://www.avidcruiser.com/news/newsdetail1.php?NID=2137 (http://www.avidcruiser.com/news/newsdetail1.php?NID=2137)
As a personal note, or editorial should you so choose, as a married person 43 years of age who just now has become a mother of an 8 year old, I will now be both sides of the "argument" . Last year on our Golden cruise DH and I made use ONLY of the Aft pool in that it was "Adult only"....those were the days...but wouldn't trade 'em...

[sail7seas]

Thank you for posting the article.

It would be helpful if you would indicate what the source of it is. Also, would you advise if you supplied the bold emphasis or was that the way it was printed in whatever the source was where you read it?

Thanks.

[peaches from georgia]

The poster links directly to the original article by clicking on Club Hal Update in his post.

[wander]

They also explain their addition of the Bold print for some of the words.

[sail7seas]

Thank you :cool:

[bepsf]

"I see a lot of parents who, after a few days, ask if there isn't an extra cabin available so that they can put some distance between them and their kids"

Am I the only one that thinks this is funny? Even the parents can't stand to be around their own kids...
;)

Maybe they need to install a bunk room in Club HAL...
:rolleyes:

[dakrewser]

"I see a lot of parents who, after a few days, ask if there isn't an extra cabin available so that they can put some distance between them and their kids"

Am I the only one that thinks this is funny? Even the parents can't stand to be around their own kids...
;)
No, I picked up on that too, Brian, but thought I'd be cited as an old curmudgeon if I mentioned it!

:) -dave

[AmyinVail]

Don't make such a broad statement about "even the parents", lumping us into one category. The reason I am bringing my children is because I can't stand to be away from them. I would argue with your stereotype...

[dakrewser]

Don't make such a broad statement about "even the parents", lumping us into one category. The reason I am bringing my children is because I can't stand to be away from them. I would argue with your stereotype...
Please re-read Brian's post. He specifically mentioned parents who were asking for seperate cabins for the kids after the cruise began....

-dave

[Peggy Sue]

I would have a very difficult time with more than two adults in a standard inside or outside cabin..I can't imagine a family trying to share that space..and with older kids, it has to be quite a juggling act to get luggage, bathroom schedules etc. under control. I think I too would get on board and immediately saw oops...maybe we do need two cabins for our family!! Space may be the underlying issue...Although I do agree there are probably SOME families on board who would like to get away from their kids..I know I've been around a few who I couldn't wait to put significant distance between us!! I've also been on family cruises (Disney..can't get more kids on board than that!) and I have to say most kids were well behaved and families were having a great time together.

Last month..on the Volendam. Docked in Tortola and the Zuiderdam docked beside us. Demographics differences were immediately noticable. Families spilling out of the Zuiderdam. 7 day cruise. Couples, with the average age 65+ on the Volendam. 10 day cruise. We had 3 teens and one 10-12 year old on board. Zuiderdam appeared to have quite a few kids on board judging from what I saw on the pier. We also had a lot of families on board the Zuiderdam in May of 03.

Families like to travel together..and HAL is making an effort to attract this market. Disney does a great job creating adult only areas..and if HAL makes an effort to provide some adult only areas, such as the aft pool, I think we can all co-exist quite peacefully!!

Peggy sue:rolleyes:

[cruzincurt]

Here's an idea....utilize those empty luggage cages down in the cargo hold.

I'm not suprised some parents can't stand their own kids after awhile, we can't either. Just think about their poor teachers.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Thanks for the report.

KIDS ON BOARD - too bad HAL is no longer offering the Pan American cruise which we were on from Oct 15 - Nov 5 --- 21 days --- AND NO CHILDREN!!!.

[Lisa63]

We love sailing with our son and spending as much time with him as possible --- but, we have noticed over the past few years that more parents are bringing the kids along and not ensuring that they are supervised. So, in a way, I am dismayed to hear about kids programs expanding on HAL. Very often, kids as young as 10 are able to sign themselves in and out of the program. That may be fine with other parents, but not for me. I think we'll stick to the S-class ships. Our August cruise on Maasdam had about 80 kids on board. :)

[AmyinVail]

I don't know what children you all have encountered - or the parents that dont' want to be with them - but my children are as well travelled as most people. I can tell you that with NCL and Carnival, my children are better behaved then the majority of the passengers. They've travelled 2-3 times a year since their birth and are incredibly well - mannered. So, the "cargo hold" comment is lost on me.....

[Krazy Kruizers]

There have ben some of us who have experienced "very well behaved" children on board cruise ships - and I am not just talking HAL.

One year on Princess - in the suite next to us, their child's play time was from 11 PM to 3 AM!!!! We got no sleep. At that we were both working and to get off a ship with very little sleep and have to go to work after flying home on a late night flight was unreal. We had complained - but were informed that "they" were friends of the captain and nothing could be done. We went to work dead tired and didn't have any time off for another 6 months - sorry our jobs also required we work weekends at their discretion.


We have also been on cruises when the children "took" over the pools.

We are fortunate to be retired and can travel when there are few children on board.

To be on a ship with unsupvised children - and there are a lot now-a-days - you can't apprecaite what a cruise is with parents who don't care. It's seems that so many parents feel that once they get on a ship, the ship is in charge of their children and they no longer have to worry about them. The parents just turn them loose.

And these "children" even have the nerve to push in front of people in the Lido, ice cream lines, pizza, hamburger - wherever they want to be - and no stops them.

[CMHF]

And these "children" even have the nerve to push in front of people in the Lido, ice cream lines, pizza, hamburger - wherever they want to be - and no stops them.

And what about the crabby older passengers that do the same, I find more older adults pushy, nervy and a PIA, than kids!

[AmyinVail]

I've had groups of smokers take over the pool - which is a nuisance to anyone in the area that doesn't care for the odor of smoke and have to go elsewhere. How about the couples that mawl each other in the hot tub - versus taking it to their room? I've posted on here before about our luck w/ next door cabin mates who smoke pot at all hours of the morning and we could hear their hacking through the walls and waking us up - and out on the balcony, making it unusable (sorry, drugs aren't my thing). Loud, drunk groups in the buffet after an afternoon of drinking that ruin it for everyone. So, you can complain about kids all you want - but the same arguement holds true for adults - who should know better!! I'd take a rowdy kid over a drunken, smoking inconsiderate adult anyday!!

[Golfgrl1911]

UH OH..........looks like you opened up a can of worms brother Bri :rolleyes: ;)

(I knew you were just kidding):D :D

[Orcrone]

I went on a 10 day cruise Oct. 30. Since school was in session and it was longer than a standard 7 day cruise, I didn't expect many kids, and I was right. In March the whole family is going on a cruise. We're going then because it's spring break and the kids are out of school. Because of the time of year I expect a lot of kids and the inevitability of some of them being unruly. I'm not looking forward to that small minority of them, but it's something I realize goes with vacationing that time of year.

If it bothered me so much I would just limit my cruises to times of the year and itineraries that wouldn't have many children on board.

[dakrewser]

So, you can complain about kids all you want - but the same arguement holds true for adults - who should know better!! I'd take a rowdy kid over a drunken, smoking inconsiderate adult anyday!!
I won't put up with either.

-dave

[divinggirl]

It's unreal how people take things so personally. We are all entitled to our opinion about kids, and I would venture to say none of us enjoy an environment with rowdy, screaming kids, whether you have them or not. No sense getting your panties in a bunch defending "YOUR" kids, none of us know them and most likely never will. So, be a responsible parent and practice what you preach, while the rest be sure to compliment parents on their well-behaved children when you see it. I, for one, sailed on the Zuiderdam from 8/21-8/27 where there was a family with 4 young children who were impeccably behaved, and I told their parents just that.

It sounds like the close quarters involved in cruising are just not for some people.

Nikki

[michmike]

other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincloln? *S*

[gizmo]

These threads are always so predictable. This post is meant to be humorous but has a lot of truth to it.

The subject Kids.

Everyone who posts on CC who has kids, have kids that are never a problem. (Only once did I ever see someone admit their kids were not angels)
(I remember one person who had a baby that never cried)

Eventually smoking, drunks and the elderly is brought up, usually by those with kids.

The cruise from hell stories where there were a large number of kids,show up sooner or later.

A couple of posts should appear about how there were 400 or so kids on board and they had no problem.

Someone usually mentions how much the crew loves kids.

Eating in Restarants with crying babies is usually brought up.

It is the fault of the parents, not the kids.

Those with kids get insulted and take it personally. The Kiddie War has now begun. (Got to laugh about slitting the wrists, :D this is a classic)

Please, no flames, this is not meant to insult anyone.

[dakrewser]

MEATLOAF!


:) -dave

[Arubalisa]

MEATLOAF! :) -daveWith peanut butter & jelly? :D

[JDee]

I can tell you that with NCL and Carnival, my children are better behaved then the majority of the passengers.

I would hope so, especially in view of your other post. Don't like to make assumptions, but would assume it was not on a HAL ship, but rather on one of the lines you mention in the above post...


AmyinVail I've had groups of smokers take over the pool - which is a nuisance to anyone in the area that doesn't care for the odor of smoke and have to go elsewhere. How about the couples that mawl each other in the hot tub - versus taking it to their room? I've posted on here before about our luck w/ next door cabin mates who smoke pot at all hours of the morning and we could hear their hacking through the walls and waking us up - and out on the balcony, making it unusable (sorry, drugs aren't my thing). Loud, drunk groups in the buffet after an afternoon of drinking that ruin it for everyone. So, you can complain about kids all you want - but the same arguement holds true for adults - who should know better!! I'd take a rowdy kid over a drunken, smoking inconsiderate adult anyday!!

At least with most kids, if they are tending to be unruly, you can raise your voice and ask them to go away. Depending what age, the'll just grumble and go bother some other pax. Can't very well do that with an obnoxious adult...

Happy cruising.....

[wander]

We were on a 30+ day cruise where their were two boys (unrelated), about 10 years old. They represented the extremes we are talking about here. One was delightful, well mannered and polite. He was fun to talk with and to watch. Was he an angel? No, but those that would be quite boring, and he was not boring. He always seemed to be having fun and appreciated what he was seeing and doing. While we would frequently see him in the public spaces you would seldom hear him as he played and conversed with those around him. He was traveling with his grandparents, an equally delightful couple. On a scale of 10 as a traveler, I would give him a 10.

Then there was the other one who was anything but polite, considerate and delightful. He was loud, had a "foul" vocabulary and you always knew when he was in the vicinity. He had unkind (well actually nasty) things to say about individuals and "types of people" which he always expressed in a very loud voice. After one experience sharing a small bus on a tour with him - I vowed to stay on the ship if we were ever destined to share a bus of any size with him. On the ship he got lost in the crowd and we seldom saw him, but when we did we certainly heard his rude, unkind and outright nasty comments about many subjects. One day early in the trip I met his mother and heard her say some of the same negative things about a certain group of people that he had. Hum, wonder where he got his ideas of what was appropriate public conversation? Then soon thereafter I heard his father talk to him in very public setting in a way no parent (my opinion) should ever speak to a child in public and I knew where his loud voice and "foul" vocabulary came from. After that I felt sorry for him, although I still did not like to be around him.

Whenever I read people saying the kids on their cruise were wonderful, I think of the first boy. When they describe them as "the kid from hell" I think of the latter one.

PS - I was sure to compliment the grandparents of the first boy on how delightful he was. I avoided the other parents and boy whenever I could.

[Lisa63]

Thank you to those who have complimented the parents, grandparents, etc. on a child's good behavior. We have been the recipients of such compliments on occasion, and it means a great deal. It lets us know we are doing our job. :)

Don't get me wrong -- as much as I adore him, my son is not an angel, certainly not 24/7. Yet he does know what is expected of him and the consequences that await should he stray from those expectations. And we enforce those consequences, as a vacation should be no different than any other day when it comes to the consideration of others. After all, I do not enjoy it when some parents ignore or even encourage misbehavior, so I certainly don't want to do the same. I want to be invited back. :)

[Cruiseoften]

Don't make such a broad statement about "even the parents", lumping us into one category. The reason I am bringing my children is because I can't stand to be away from them. I would argue with your stereotype...

Knowing the ages of your children might affect reaction and comments on your post
:)

[Roadwork]

The most amazing thing said was the reason for bringing the children along.

Michmike, please pass the razor.

[RuthC]

MEATLOAF!
With peanut butter & jelly? :D:D No, with chocolate sauce!:D

[AmyinVail]

I am the parent that requests a far out table (or one by the kitchen for noise), so that my children don't "disturb" other guests. I am the parent that will not dine after 6pm with my children, for I know they get ansy the closer to bedtime, even though that time is not preferrable to my husband and I. I am the parent that will not let my children turn around in a booth, make sure their napkin is on their lap and they use their manners at every turn. My children are 9 and 2. My children have vacationed, without incident, a few times a year since they were both 9 months old. After reading the vicious comments on this thread, I am inclined to believe that my children are not only well-mannered, but much more so than some of the posters to this thread. I can assure you, my kids would never talk this degrading about anyone, they don't hear that type of mouthiness and besides, they're not allowed. I have become quite hesitant about my upcoming HAL cruise. It is my hope that 1) I don't encounter such child-hating passengers on my cruise and 2) None of you who have commented so negatively have children or grandchildren of your own. I am quite simply put, perplexed at some of your reactions.

[dakrewser]

After reading the vicious comments on this thread, I am inclined to believe that my children are not only well-mannered, but much more so than some of the posters to this thread. I can assure you, my kids would never talk this degrading about anyone, they don't hear that type of mouthiness and besides, they're not allowed. I have become quite hesitant about my upcoming HAL cruise. It is my hope that 1) I don't encounter such child-hating passengers on my cruise and 2) None of you who have commented so negatively have children or grandchildren of your own. I am quite simply put, perplexed at some of your reactions.

Could you point out the "vicious" comments? I haven't seen any child-hating words in this thread. I have seen people who are appropriately upset by misbehaving children - and adults. Generally speaking, a larger percentage of the children misbehave. It is, of course, almost entirely their parents fault - but that doesn't make the child's behavior any less obnoxious.

Yes, there are well behaved children and they should be commended and rewarded. But they are in the minority these days it would seem.

If your children are as well behaved as you say, then you'll have no problem at all.

-dave

[CMHF]

[QUOTE=michmike]Yet another reason to stick with the S class ships and travel at times when the urchins ought to be in school. 400 on a ship?? GOD!!! I work with convicts all year.. Last thing I want on a cruise is mini versions in training. and I'm sorry folks but as a generalization, this new breed of parents DO NOT discipline and control their kids the way our parents or we did (late 50s here, with a "finally got his head on straight" 24 yr old.)
QUOTE]
I've highlighted a few of the more vicious comments. BTW MichMike, maybe your son just rebelling against a cranky father.

[cruzincurt]

Amyinvail, Relax, don't take the comments so personal. People are just venting about those particular incidents they observed. We don't remember those children who were there but were not really seen or heard. I'm sure other parent's kids and their behavior probably bother you at times. I commend how you look after your kids. Sometimes it's hard to believe that we we kids at one time.

What bothers me is how current events have painted the rest of us as potential predators. Look at it from our point of view for a minute. Here I am sitting in the hot tub minding my own business and in comes three young girls. Guess what, I'm hands in the air and getting out ASAP. One unfounded comment from any of them or their parents and I'm in the brig.

You want kids? Try the Explorer of the Seas during Thanksgiving with 780 kiddos aboard!

[Smmessineo]

Wow, There sure is some venom in this thread. I've just planned my 2nd cruise, for next summer to the Baltics. I'll be with my husband and my kids.They don't join the kids club, they watch the scenery, read, watch tv and play deck games. I'm interested in seeing the demographics of that cruise.Our first cruise was the Dawn Princess to Alaska in August 03. I seem to remember a decent number of kids, none rowdy. Nor were there any party animals, crotchety seniors, or any other stereotype! Maybe I was just so in awe of Alaska that I forgot to notice all the little irritating stuff! I'm hoping it's the same for me in Europe. And to refer back to the beginning of this thread
about sharing cabins with kids...I love my girls but I AIN"T rooming with them. They enjoyed midnight room service and general teenage slobbiness. By the end of the cruise their room smelled like bacon, chocolate chip cookies.....and feet!!!! (and yes we tipped the steward extra at the end!)

[michmike]

*laffin* Goodness.. if what I posted is considered viscious you'd surely not want to be around me when I'm ornery.

And if you'll give credit for syntax I DID say "as a generalization"

I just prefer when on vacation, to be in a setting where there are going to be as few children as possible. As a result we don't schedule cruises during school vacations or over the holidays when we know there will be greater than normal numbers. We have also avoided the vista class ships for that and other reasons. I truly do feel that having 400 kids running loose on a cruise ship would be MY idea of purgatory. If you don't feel that way, more power to you. Not ANTI kid.. just don't want to spend my vacation with yours.

Are there obnoxious adults on cruises?? sure..(to listen to some here, I'm a case in point *G*) but they are less omnipresent and if I get my back against the wall I can always shoot them with my paint pellet gun w/ impunity... When I do that to a 7 yr old, some take exception.. go figure.

Pillory me if you will... just don't tie me up and take me on vacation with your darlins..

[xpcdoojk]

The most amazing thing said was the reason for bringing the children along.

Michmike, please pass the razor.


Yes, obsessive parents, usually mothers. I know a lot of parents in my generation that this has affected, I am 45. Was this common in the older generations. I certainly never went on a cruise vacation when I was a kid. I even remember living with the neighbors for a week or two during my childhood.:confused: I have a co-worker, who is starting his second family. They have a 3-1/2 year old his 30 something mother sleeps with him, because something may happen if she isn't there. I am sorry, but this doesn't seem all that healthy.

jc

[iowacruiser]

Well behaved kids aren't noticed, buts it hard to ignore the hellions. Unsupervised kids are the problem and they are on almost every ship. Their parents are to blame, plain and simple.
Hey Michmike, you better be carefull. Some of these kids will probably end up as your inmates down the road.

[michmike]

best career field to get into if you want job security. Never any layoffs among prison staff. When I started in michigan 28 yrs ago we had 10 prisons. 42 at last count. Pick up the paper any nite and there's someone doing wrong. And while I hate to stir the pot... they're somebody's KIDS.... *L* I feed them.. and I must be doing one heck of a job as I have 2000 standing in line every meal.. haven't ever seen THAT many even in the bread pudding line onboard.

So keep 'em coming... our kids need good, recession proof state jobs as well.