Thoughts of quality and service...

[WJBonds]

When I posted by thoughts concerning my recent Zuiderdam cruise, I started off by giving everyone a little bit of information about me.

Because we all have different life experiences we all have different ideas of what constitutes fine service and good quality.

I am happy that my "review" sparked some interest among the regular cruise critic participants. What bewilders me is there is constant support for the HAL product by people who seem to have no other cruiseline experiences. I wonder if these HAL supporters have ever really had a wonderful meal or had wonderful service.

What I am trying to say is this. If the food was good, and the service were as it should be, the HAL product would still be "ordinary". I'm sorry to say that the Zuiderdam experience (IMHO) is no different from RCCL, Princess, NCL, Celebrity, or any other mass market cruise ship. I've been on all of these and they are becoming interchangable.

So, I no longer will consider HAL a "premium" line. (Doesn't mean that I won't cruise with HAL anymore). It just means that when I want (and can afford) a premium vacation, I will go elsewhere.

[Orcrone]

WJBonds,

I've only had two other cruises in my life, and one of them was in 1990. I consider that one too long ago to be a meaningful comparison; partly because of how much the industry has changed in that time, and how little I trust my memory. My only other cruise was last year on Carnival; a cruise line that is considered the opposite of HAL.

Although the feel of the two cruises are different I didn't feel the quality was that different. Carnival had better food in the dining room, whereas I would give the nod to HAL in the casual dining category. Without a doubt the service in the dining room was much better on Carnival. It seemed that the stewards on HAL were running full tilt just to keep up. Most of the rest of the differences related to the feel of the cruise. The Maasdam was not nearly as crowded, there was a more relaxed pace, there weren't constant announcements. It had a theater that was missing on Carnival. On the other hand Carnival had more activities going on, more music on deck, late night theme parties. However, there was little about HAL vs. Carnival that would make me call HAL a 'premium' cruise line.

Comparing both cruises to my initial cruise on RCCL in 1990 I noticed a number of changes. Soda was included back then. Now most lines charge extra. Each night they had a lavish midnight buffet, with an ice sculpture. Now the late night buffets are not nearly as nice.

[JohnR49er]

I've wondered the same thing myself. Maybe some people really don't know what they are missing.

I also think that the HAL veterans with the many, many, many,many cruises would just have a hard time admitting that now they are experts on a mass market line that isn't so special anymore.

I suppose the hours here and the hundreds of posts provide something for them. Hey whatever floats your boat...........:D

[jhannah]

We have sailed HAL and Princess. Not any difference I can tell in service. It's adequate, to be sure. The best service we ever received was on the Rotterdam about 3 years ago ... before staffing cuts. Since then, service has taken a noticeable dip. Drastic and foreboding? No. There's just a difference. We've seen it on Princess, too. Just a sign of the times as more businesses are having to do more with less to keep the P & L where it should be while not pricing themselves out of the market.

[Krazy Kruizers]

We have sailed on Princess (many, many times), NCL (many, many times), RCI (once), and Cunard several times. We gave them up a few years ago.

We have booked several cruises with HAL for next year, but have not made any plans for the following year.

One of the reasons we have stayed with HAL is the cabin size.

And so far we have been pleased with their service.

[sail7seas]

I am happy that my "review" sparked some interest among the regular cruise critic participants. What bewilders me is there is constant support for the HAL product by people who seem to have no other cruiseline experiences. I wonder if these HAL supporters have ever really had a wonderful meal or had wonderful service.[/Quote]

I pulled my response. It may have gotten me tossed off this Board.

[sail7seas]

I've wondered the same thing myself. Maybe some people really don't know what they are missing.

I also think that the HAL veterans with the many, many, many,many cruises would just have a hard time admitting that now they are experts on a mass market line that isn't so special anymore.

I suppose the hours here and the hundreds of posts provide something for them. Hey whatever floats your boat...........:D


Any chance it is simply relaxing and fun? And that is all it needs to be for some of us.

I notice you spend a fair amount of time on at least two boards.....and maybe more? And have for a long time.

[JDee]

Appears to me that the OP is rephrasing the zilion words posted on his prior review. Same story.... That story would appear to be a dead horse at this point, having been through the cycle..... It had it's run on prime time.....

[JohnR49er]

Well I guess I do spend a fair amount of time here, 140 posts .

What would 4,000 posts be, excessive? I like to read about cruising and discuss all the varied topics here. This is just a diversion, not something important enough to devote my life to. I can't understand having to spend so much time here. But I guess there is a need..................................

[sail7seas]

Gee, John....you must have forgotten that lots of us lost tons of posts when we got the new Board here. I lost count but I think it may have been as many as 3,000 or even more I lost. ;) I learned a long time ago, there are only two people in the world I really need to please.....DH and myself.
I like to please others and it's nice to do so.....BUT----

[HeatherInFlorida]

Uh oh! Shouldn't have dropped by here!!!

First, WJB, your original premise (I believe) is incorrect. From what I've read on these boards most of these people have cruised many, many lines and have said so many, many times! So for whatever reason they choose HAL as their favorite, not having experience on other cruiselines is not one of them.

Second, I'm not sure why you wanted to hash over this again when, as JDee said, you've already gone over it once.

Third, JohnR49er, it's not how many posts you have ... it's how much time you spend reading the boards that obviously led you to the knowledge you seem to enjoy. I continue to be totally confused by people who spend time here on the HAL boards yet continually complain about what they're reading.

And if some people enjoy having "conversations" with others who love cruising, why is that wrong? Do some of us "talk" too much? Maybe. But at least we express our opinions and don't just "eavesdrop".

For the record, I have sailed on Cunard, Regency, Norwegian Cruise Lines, Windstar, Celebrity, HAL and Royal Viking Line. There may be another, but I can't recall right this second.

[sail7seas]

Well I guess I do spend a fair amount of time here, 140 posts .

What would 4,000 posts be, excessive? I like to read about cruising and discuss all the varied topics here. This is just a diversion, not something important enough to devote my life to. I can't understand having to spend so much time here. But I guess there is a need..................................

You do not need to understand, do you?

[JohnR49er]

Glad you express your opinions and dont just eavesdrop.
Here are mine.......
High post counts don't mean Jack, just shows how much free time you have.
Converse and discuss all you want, never said it was wrong.
I come here for HAL info, but the bragging sure gets old.
Anyone has the right to post what they want, even if its been beaten to death.
Total confusion can be overcome;)

[JohnR49er]

Oh I lied......... I do understand it

[mhshapiro]

I would agree that in terms of service and such HAL is closer to a mass market line than a "premium" line.

However, I disagree that all the mass market lines are "interchangable". They all have their own "personalities". I suspect that the reason that HAL attracts a loyal following is that the cruise experience on HAL fits well with the passenger demographics and expectations.

[HeatherInFlorida]

....High post counts don't mean Jack, just shows how much free time you have.

Maybe I missed a post somewhere on this thread, but was someone bragging about having a lot of posts? Did anyone ask CC to put the number here? Personally, I couldn't care less about it and I would guess that most people don't bother with noticing one way or another. It certainly has nothing to do with each person's opinion about their cruise.

I don't think it's necessary to have anything to compare a cruise to. I don't care if it's a person's first cruise and first post ... how they felt about the cruise is meaningful to me depending on how it is expressed.

But I still don't see where anyone was talking about how many posts they have being a barometer for how valuable their opinion is of their cruise.

[kryos]

One of the reasons we have stayed with HAL is the cabin size.
Not to mention the reasonableness of their single supplements, or the existence of their "guaranteed share" program.

I'm certainly not a cruise line expert. I've only been on three cruises, and all of them have been HAL. However, next month I will be going on the Sun Princess, and I am very anxious to see how it compares. I'll be sure organize my opinions and report on them when I return.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[uncialman]

Not to mention the reasonableness of their single supplements, or the existence of their "guaranteed share" program.

I'm certainly not a cruise line expert. I've only been on three cruises, and all of them have been HAL. However, next month I will be going on the Sun Princess, and I am very anxious to see how it compares. I'll be sure organize my opinions and report on them when I return.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Let me know as to the condition and service levels of the Sun when you return, Rita. I have a large group on the Sun in Alaska next year and are quite interested in your honest appraisal.

[RevNeal]

I'm sorry to say that the Zuiderdam experience (IMHO) is no different from RCCL, Princess, NCL, Celebrity, or any other mass market cruise ship. I've been on all of these and they are becoming interchangable.


I'll grant this. The "Zuiderdam expereince" is no different from the other lines. Fine.

Now, coordinate that observation with the fact that, based upon what I've read and what I've been told, the Zuiderdam is the least-HALish ship in the HAL fleet. With this point in mind, is it -- just perhaps -- possible that to judge an entire cruise line by the least-representative ship in its fleet is somewhat questionable?

[uncialman]

I'll grant this. The "Zuiderdam expereince" is no different from the other lines. Fine.

Now, coordinate that observation with the fact that, based upon what I've read and what I've been told, the Zuiderdam is the least-HALish ship in the HAL fleet. With this point in mind, is it -- just perhaps -- possible that to judge an entire cruise line by the least-representative ship in its fleet is somewhat questionable?

Greetings RevNeal!

I think the bothersome element of the Zuiderdam is that many of the changes and attributes of the ship were designed as a pilot project of "the new HAL". My honest and truthful hope is that they will jettison their ill-conceived plans for changes on the rest of the fleet and restore staffing and food quality levels to where they were pre - 9/11.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I'll grant this. The "Zuiderdam expereince" is no different from the other lines. Fine.

Now, coordinate that observation with the fact that, based upon what I've read and what I've been told, the Zuiderdam is the least-HALish ship in the HAL fleet. With this point in mind, is it -- just perhaps -- possible that to judge an entire cruise line by the least-representative ship in its fleet is somewhat questionable?
Hi, Greg! Where have you been? I was just wondering why I hadn't seen any posts from you lately.

Anyway, you always put a valuable perspective on things and this is no exception.

[old Marine]

I will be sailing on the BigDam on Feb.26,2005..Every one is free to give their opinion,(imho) Now don't try to make me believe that YOU are the best judge of what is expectation..If you are going to say something bad about a cruise or a line,say it lets go on....Folks have big money investment on their cruise ,let them make their own opinion.....enough said..


George from NC :cool:

[uncialman]

I will be sailing on the BigDam on Feb.26,2005..Every one is free to give their opinion,(imho) Now don't try to make me believe that YOU are the best judge of what is expectation..If you are going to say something bad about a cruise or a line,say it lets go on....Folks have big money investment on their cruise ,let them make their own opinion.....enough said..


George from NC :cool:

You are completely entitled to your own opinion, George.

However, as an agent who reccomends cruises, it does affect my bias if I am in the position of reccomending a ship to a large group whose happiness I am truly concerned about. Also realize that this board is my refuge from my business and is populated by others that know an awful lot and care an awful lot about the HAL product. I think most of us enjoy the banter (even when we don't agree) and learn what other's expectations in a cruise experience are over the course of our many conversations.

The cruise board becomes a family, and we tend to talk around the dinner table. :D

[JohnR49er]

Well Heather, you didn't miss anything. But thanks for agreeing with me that post counts don't mean much. I also value the first time cruisers opinion as well. It seems my opinions while general in nature are taken way too personally. This thread went from general comments to personal debates. I believe it was noted how much time I spend on cruise boards, and I brought up that there were people who spend alot more time than I do.
It's interesting to see that the "Cult" is still alive , well, and defensive as ever. Its a tradition here on this board. :D

[HeatherInFlorida]

John, this is risky for me but I'll do it anyway:o .

WJBonds had already posted a rather thorough review. He even seemed upset that Part 1 of his review hadn't drawn much response. But Part 2 definitely did and there was quite a long discussion that evolved. When that died down, he started this thread which seems to try to rev everyone up again.

Now there's nothing stopping him from doing that, but on the other hand he has to expect that some people will say "enough is enough ... you said your piece". There's no judgement that I can see against his original review, but why beat the poor horse again?

Personally I enjoy these boards and I think for the most part everyone gets along great. Sometimes people annoy each other as can happen in any community, but we get over it and go on.

It's pretty clear who you're annoyed with, but reading this thread indicates that you really pulled the first punch. A lot of people on the HAL boards are very loyal to the line and it's kind of like you're insulting their child.

Take it for what it's worth ... JMHO.:)

[dakrewser]

It's interesting to see that the "Cult" is still alive , well, and defensive as ever. Its a tradition here on this board. :D
You don't visit the Celebrity noard much, do you?

-dave

[CDRMark]

Do I understand correctly that if I enjoyed my cruise I have no concept of quality service or exellence in food?
Sorry, doesn't compute.
Cheers
MarkB

[JDee]

Heather, whole heartedly agree with your posting (No. 25)... Very well said.....

Happy cruising....

[tommy]

JohnR49er,Its a cult of about 3 on Holland.Theres little doubt from recent postings that the service and general quality of Holland has gone down,but IMO its still a good cruise line,at a reasonable price.I just hope it doesnt continue to decline. TOM

[gizmo]

Because we all have different life experiences we all have different ideas of what constitutes fine service and good quality.

I am happy that my "review" sparked some interest among the regular cruise critic participants. What bewilders me is there is constant support for the HAL product by people who seem to have no other cruiseline experiences. I wonder if these HAL supporters have ever really had a wonderful meal or had wonderful service.Some on this board have sailed on other lines. I sailed on NCL which I enjoyed at the time. I wanted a change and we switched to Hal. We saw a big difference, mostly in service and quality of food. The entire cruise experince was different, and we thought Hal was much better suited to what we wanted. I have no idea of what service or food is like today on NCL. I will admit I have seen a decline in Hal. It arrived with the introduction of the Vista ships. IMHO.
I did consider a cruise on X earlier this year. I was very close to booking one but a "last minute deal to die for" came up for a Canal cruise on the Rotterdam so I booked that. I mentioned my disappointment in service a million times on this board so I won't go into that again. I will mention we cruised Oct 2003 and that cruise was as close to perfect as it gets with fantastic service and food. I do realize you can't win them all and not every cruise will be like the one on the Statendam.


What I am trying to say is this. If the food was good, and the service were as it should be, the HAL product would still be "ordinary". I'm sorry to say that the Zuiderdam experience (IMHO) is no different from RCCL, Princess, NCL, Celebrity, or any other mass market cruise ship. I've been on all of these and they are becoming interchangable.Since I haven't sailed any other line in a long time so I cannot agree or disagree. I haven't sailed on the Zui and have no interest in doing so.
So, I no longer will consider HAL a "premium" line. (Doesn't mean that I won't cruise with HAL anymore). It just means that when I want (and can afford) a premium vacation, I will go elsewhere. I am not going to disagree with this statement either. I think the work "premium" is over used. On a press release, back when the SOE was first announced, I counted how many times the word premium was used. Talk about over using a word!!!

[halos]

Hi,
My name is Halos and I'm a cruise addict.

I haven't sailed HAL (yet). Currently, I am in the process of researching cruiselines for a special cruise to celebrate 25 years of marraige and an empty nest....the cruise won't be until winter 2007, so I have lots of time to scope the boards and read everything available to me, in order to help me make a decision on whcih line to chose for this special cruise.
The topic that the OP started may be re-hash to some of you, but it isn't for me. I have been on the boards for probably close to a year, but spent most of that time on the Carnival boards since my last cruise was on the Miracle this past June (which, by the way was absolutely awesome). My husband and I have only cruised 3x. Each time was on Carnival and it seems that their line (for us, anyway) improved with each cruise. BUT we want to experience other lines...I'd love to try them all.
In reading recent posts on this board AND on the Celebrity boards, (which are the two lines I have narrowed my choice down to) I have been hearing a lot of the same and it saddens me. It seems the quality of the cruise experience is not the same these days. Of course this opinion varies from person to person and it seems to depend on what ship is sailed as well. Because I have not sailed any line but Carnival, and I do want to try another line, I, for one, appreciate any feedback on any line and every ship. I want to know the good, the bad and the ugly. I may not agree with everyone's opinions, but if I see many bad opinions on a particular ship, this will help me to possibly choose another.
So...the bottom line is, if this thread seems like a re-hash to anyone, please just ignore it. For some of us, it is new news.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Halos, if you want more info from WDBonds you can do a search for his review of this cruise. It was in 2 sections, parts 1 and 2, and was very interesting. But it was because of that review that several of us thought this was a rehash. I think you'll find his review thread more enlightening and informational than this one.

Also, with regard to the negative comments on these boards, I'd like to call your attention to one of my own posts. It's #19 on this thread: Cruise Critic Message Boards - When will HAL make corrections (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=108340)

The reason I point it out to you is that overall I think people generally tend to talk about the "bad" over the "good" because it is the "good" that they expect. So I would caution you when reading anyone's comments to remember that and blend it in with professional opinions of each ship and cruiseline.

Just a thought ... happy hunting! Remember we all wouldn't be cruising if we all didn't love it.

[Giorgi-one]

Appears to me that the OP is rephrasing the zilion words posted on his prior review. Same story.... That story would appear to be a dead horse at this point, having been through the cycle..... It had it's run on prime time.....

Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that everyone knows the quality is going downhill and should accept it?

[Giorgi-one]

JohnR49er,Its a cult of about 3 on Holland.Theres little doubt from recent postings that the service and general quality of Holland has gone down,but IMO its still a good cruise line,at a reasonable price.I just hope it doesnt continue to decline. TOM

There are essentially only two cruise lines now - Carnival and RCCL. They will continue to cut service and quality until there is substantial resistance by the cruising public, meaning that they all flock to one line or switch to land based vacations.

[uncialman]

There are essentially only two cruise lines now - Carnival and RCCL. They will continue to cut service and quality until there is substantial resistance by the cruising public, meaning that they all flock to one line or switch to land based vacations.

Right on the money, Giorgi1!

However, don't forget Parent Company Star Cruises and they daughter NCL and the new MSC offerings in the cruise market.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that everyone knows the quality is going downhill and should accept it?
My understanding of JDee's post was that the OP had written a lengthy review and what followed on his thread was quite an intense debate. She was questioning why, when that thread died down, he chose to bring it up again on a new thread within a very short time period. I wholeheartedly agree with her.

I never got the impression she was suggesting anyone should accept inferior quality on any cruiseline.

[JohnR49er]

Not really annoyed Heather. I was just questioning why the die hard HAL cruisers and frequent posters seem to take it so personally when someone has a negative opinion of their child. Someone who posts a negative comment or a problem they have had, usually get a response somewhere on the thread about not complaining over every little thing. If they don't return to the thread for whatever reason, they were just stirring the pot...

The "Big" HAL fans can't be right all the time and the negative opinions can't be wrong all the time. Does it get out of hand? Yes it does at times. Some times things are read into or between the lines of posts. I guess it would be pretty dull if everyone always agreed on everything here. :D

[HeatherInFlorida]

John, I don't know if you've read any of my reviews or posts about my recent HAL experience, but if you did you know that I did say several negative things. Yet not one person got on me about it.

I think a lot of it has to do with the way some people express themselves. Just like in life, if you come on too strong and give the impression that there was simply nothing good about the cruise, people are going to react. If a person is persistently negative, you have to wonder what the person's agenda is.

I simply can't believe some of the stuff I read here. We've been on 13 cruises, some better than others, but never totally negative. I honestly don't think I would cruise again for a very long time if that happened. That wouldn't be fair, but it's kind of like eating a food that makes you sick. You really aren't dying to eat it again for quite a while:) .

There are times when something really bad can happen on a cruise which might pretty much ruin the cruise. If that happened to me, while I might post it here I would then get in touch with the cruiseline and battle it out with them. But then I'd move on. Life is too short to just go over and over and over one bad experience.

[tommy]

Heather,I dont think anyone is saying thier entire cruise was bad,but it does seem they are complaining about the same things.Service in the dining room and cutbacks and maybe the new tipping system.And there are 2or3 people on here who answer back as if we are lying or they want proof or just say they have never expierienced this so I guess it cant be true. TOM

[sail7seas]

Speaking only for myself, as a loyal HAL cruiser, I do not ever take it personally when someone has a negative comment about HAL, a particular ship, or their particular cruise. I often do not agree with some of the negativity but I most assuredly do not take it personally. I do not look at HAL as 'my child' as you reference.


I read everyone's posts, learn from many of them, and sometimes agree and sometimes disagree.

Fair and balanced.....All conversations with have varying opinions. No one is more correct than the other. Each person knows what they like or do not like about everything they experience....including cruises.

[tommy]

Thats nice ,but Iam referring to expieriences not opinions.What is there to agree with when someone says thier service was slow they saw thier waiter 2 times during dinner,there was crap in the drain in the washroom A/C wasnt working inthier room ect. TOM

[dakrewser]

And there are 2or3 people on here who answer back as if we are lying or they want proof or just say they have never expierienced this so I guess it cant be true. TOM
People can only report on their own experience. Some have a negative experience, some a positive one. Neither is more legitimate or accurate, but all require supporting data if the poster wishes others to believe it is true - especially when the readers have no experience of the poster's opinions or observations.

-dave

[tommy]

Ok what is supported data if not your word,or are you saying if someone generally only reports on bad things to take it with a grain of salt.If so then the ones that feel the need to defend and only bring up the positive are in the same boat.Anyway someone gives a review or just states what they expierienced on thier cruise shouldnt have to defend themselves or have thier credibility questioned. TOM

[whalers4ever]

My 3rd HAL cruise is coming up soon. Now I have no other cruising experience to compare my HAL cruises to. I think HAL is above par based upon my experience with HAL and based upon the description of other cruise lines by people that I know. For now, we will stick with brand loyalty but will some day venture out to other cruise lines.

WJBonds: Related to Julie Bonds M--D--M? I worked with her and I know she's originally from Long G-Island.:D

[RD64]

I have only sailed with HAL three times. I noticed a significant drop in service levels in the dining room, bars, and the pool area between March and August 2004.

The service by Elizabeth - the wine steward was exemplary - it was the third time I have been assigned to her section. My cabin steward provided great service as well - on the first night I spilt a few drops of red wine on the sheets. I did not expect them to be changed but they were. As well, I would leave shoes out every night before dinner, and they were always returned shined by the time I returned to the cabin.

One thing I did notice missing from my March trip was the waiters coming around by the pool with trays of lemonade and iced tea.

Cheers Robert

Cheers Robert

[dakrewser]

Ok what is supported data if not your word,or are you saying if someone generally only reports on bad things to take it with a grain of salt.If so then the ones that feel the need to defend and only bring up the positive are in the same boat.Anyway someone gives a review or just states what they expierienced on thier cruise shouldnt have to defend themselves or have thier credibility questioned. TOM
"supported data" is objective data. "Your word" is subjective data. The quality of the food, it's spicyness, etc. is subjective data - opinion. Statements that "they had no power for 30 hours", "there was nothing to eat", or "they water the booze" are statements of fact and should have more than one source before they're considered true. Too often, statements of fact from someone who has never posted here before has been shown to be, at best, hyperbole or exageration.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. But everyone is also entitled to decide how much weight to give that opinion.

-dave

[JDee]

Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that everyone knows the quality is going downhill and should accept it?
What appeared to me was that the OP was not content with the responses given to his posting of the Zuiderdam review Pt 2 of 11/27/04. Food and service can be very subjective. OP indicated in Pts 1 & 2, that he has had very fine dining experiences & that HAL just didn't live up to those high standards, at least that was my impression. Maybe he expected Crystal ambiance at a HAL price, but nevertheless states he would sail HAL again. He also has many good things to say.

I just thought that his viewpoints were thoroughly gone over in much detail having received 64 responses with 369 views. Nobody flamed him. Many agreed with many of this points. I just didn't see any point in going over the same road over again. It's somewhat akin to reading threads on no smoking areas, jeans in the DR, they all say the same thing, go round, and round and round. Keep saying the same things over, and over....

Heather: Just to set the record straight, JDee is a he..http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon10.gif. You did indeed understand my post correctly....

[HeatherInFlorida]

................
Heather: Just to set the record straight, JDee is a he..http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon10.gif. You did indeed understand my post correctly....
When people don't sign their names, there's no way to know. Now I do.:D

[bonnyweed]

dakrewser --This board, almost by definition, is a subjective entity. I'm very interested in reading anyone's opinion, whether they have posted 1 time or 5000 times. The "supporting data" thing is a stretch for me. Does one require photographs of the backed up sewage? Perhaps the picture has been altered. There is no standard of objectivity to be applied here. If you think someone is full of b.s., then that's your right to feel that way. It is even your right to be terse when challenging people and to demand "supporting data." And the other wonderful thing is that I can find your demands to be bizarre and still enjoy reading what you write.
This isn't a court of law....just a virtual community of people with opinions and experiences.
I think HAL is going downhill. It is still a very solid product though, to me,
not excellent. Things change...maybe they will improve. I'd sail on almost any line if the price was right.

[tommy]

Thank you Bonny very well said.I go a step further a first time posting is probably more subjective than the 5000+postings. TOM

[dakrewser]

dakrewser --This board, almost by definition, is a subjective entity. I'm very interested in reading anyone's opinion, whether they have posted 1 time or 5000 times.
So am I. But do you believe everything every stranger on the street walks up and tells you? When you've read multiple postings by a person, it's not that you are more ready to believe them, but that you're in a better position to evaluate what they say.

We've had posters who declared that there cruise was "the cruise from hell" because no one would refill their water glass in the Lido at lunchtime. We've had posters declare that the ship was "dead in the water for 30 hours with no food for the passengers" when the reality was that power was out for 3 hours. I also get (in my email inbox) 60-80 messages a day from complete strangers who want to make me a millionaire, re-finace my mortgage, improve my sex life and help me get my green card.

So, yes, everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. And I'm entitled not to believe the underlying details if I so choose.

-dave

[Giorgi-one]

dakrewser:

Can you forward emails to improve my sex life? Did they work for you?

My negative comments were based on HAL Zuiderdam cruise in August which agreed with other posts. It's still a good value for the money, but not what I would call premium (considerably better than average) or special.

[dakrewser]

My negative comments were based on HAL Zuiderdam cruise in August which agreed with other posts. It's still a good value for the money, but not what I would call premium (considerably better than average) or special.
And, as has been noted, the Zuiderdam (I've not been on her myself) is probably the least "HAL-like" in the fleet. It is a poor reflection on the line, but shouldn't be taken as the typical HAL experience, as many have noted.

-dave

[tommy]

Dave,is that a supported opinion on the Zuiderdam or a subjective opinion.Never mind anyway because it doesnt seem to be just the Zuiderdam cutbacks seem to be effecting the entire fleet.This isnt meant to be a knock on Holland just an observation.IMO Holland is still as good or better than most the other lines,an price wise a better deal. TOM

[Nasmas]

I am a HAL cult member I suppose. My husband and I have been on 7 and enjoyed all but one of them. That's not really true, we enjoyed all of them but one was ruined by a mob of rude, obnoxious children. But, that's another story. Every time we think of trying another line, the room sizes turn us off. We were looking for a cruise once and happened on a Penthouse suite for under $2000 for 7 days for both of us. WOW, we thought but, further investigating showed the PS on this line only had 300+ sq ft. Not as big as HAL's S category. That means a lot to us. As long as we're treated well and enjoy the cruises, we'll stay with HAL. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. As for the attitude on this board, this is Holland America board, isn't it?

[Ziggy7]

Why is it that someone who has a "bad" HAL cruise must go on and on about the bad stuff trying to chase others away and say to anyone who is against their judgement, that they must be in a "cult"!

I mean get over it already, you didnt like it, you said it, now let others decide what value they want to put on it! Yep it's that simple :) The End!

[Silverfox]

We just returned from the Rotterdam yesterday.

We were on the Zuiderdam last year the week before the new tipping policy went into effect and we definitely noticed a huge downward trend in service, attitude, and morale in a year. Missing were the smiles from the crew as you passed them. Missing was the good service we have had in the past. It was what you call "minimum to just get a passing grade".

Our cabin steward frequently forgot to fill the ice bucket or to empty wastebaskets. When reminded his attitude was just OK so I'll do it -- but no apology. Service in the DR was not up to par in any way. Waiter reached across to serve, didn't take orders or serve the ladies first. Several times one meal at our table arrived up to 10 minutes after the others -- with no explanation. Coffee cups were put down but you couldn't find the asst. waiter to fill them.

Seems the crew all had more to do than time to do it and service suffered. Of course, when you know you're going to get a tip at the end of the cruise, why put yourself out.

Liked it so much better when you could reward them for their service. Now even an extra tip has to be turned in and that is not fair. It is, after all, OUR MONEY and we should be able to share it as we choose.

The Rotterdam was going over to Freeport after we got off -- 1200 workers on board to totally redo the ship in 18 days. Should sparkle after that.

[CruiseWacker23]

Well said Heather. While certainly not as well traveled as many of you, the DW and I have sailed on a couple HAL cruises and spoken with many travel agents and others on those cruises who DO have as much experience. IMO:

1. Thus far, our HAL cruises have met our every need and expectation and have been very enjoyable so guess what, our next cruise scheduled is still with HAL.

2. Most of the travel agents agree that for many different reasons, HAL is a notch above most other cruiselines for matching dollar for dollar.

3. I don't think anyone on here suggested that our DAM ships are the QM2 or one of the elite.

4. Bottom line is everyone has their own taste and standards and should make their decisions based on what they like best.

[obriendan]

Cruisewacker stated:

3. I don't think anyone on here suggested that our DAM ships are the QM2 or one of the elite.

I agree. However, from our experience on a 18 day QM2 cruise, I would say that HAL service is much better!

[Jim Gallup]

Silverfox makes the same service evaluation error that many cruisers make. He assumes that pooling of tips and guaranteed incomes for tipped crew started recently with the new tipping policies. Based on that erroneous assumption, he then concludes that service has deteriorated as a result of that "New" system. He is pretty much dead wrong.

Tips on all the major cruise lines have been pooled by waiters and cabin stewards for the past 30 years. Just because you handed an envelope to one of them didn't mean he kept that money. As soon as you left the vessel, all the tipped employees met to divide up the "spoils". You didn't get to see that part, because you were busy looking for your suitcase in the terminal.
Briefly put, WAITERS AND CABIN STEWARDS ALWAYS KNEW THEY WERE GETTING TIPPED WHETHER YOU GAVE THEM ANY MONEY OR NOT. THEY ALWAYS RECEIVED PART OF THE POOL, REGARDLESS OF YOUR GENEROSITY OR STINGINESS. The only motivation they ever had was the opportunity to earn addditional side tips that they were allowed to keep.
Guess what, they still have exactly that same motivation today. NOTHING HAS CHANGED - at least as far as the tipping system really works.

What has changed?
Over the past 30 years, the price of a cruise has dropped dramatically. The middle classes can now afford to cruise. America's Middle Class has generally lower expectations in quality and service, than the upper classes we saw a few decades ago. Many of them do not tip nearly as well as the upper classes did in the "good old days". 30 years ago on Royal Viking, the average tip was $19.75 per person per day. Today the cruise line average is $9.75 worldwide. If your yearly salary was effectively cut by 50%, would you still be smiling and excited to do a superlative job?
With a 50% reduction in salary, do you expect the cruise lines to be able to attract the same quality of service employee?

Has service on cruise ships suffered over the past several decades?
Absolutely.
Has the quality of cruising guests deteriorated over the past several decades?
Absolutely.
Has the incentive to do a good job (money) gone down over the past several decades?
Absolutely.

Whe you insist to pay McDonqlds prices, you should not be surprised to receive McDonalds Service. But you should be surprised to pay McDonalds prices and get something better than McDonalds service - and generally that's what the cruise lines are delivering.

[CruiseWacker23]

Silverfox stated the downward trend of the level of service since the new tipping policy took effect. He is absolutely correct, at least as far as the morale issue goes.If you were working your butt off and knew you were getting $1 or less as a share of a $10 daily tip fee, you wouldn't be smiling either.
One part of his observation is incorrect however. According to HAL, staff or individuals that receive additional or personal envelopes with tips during or following their cruises are allowed to keep all of the money to themselves and not put it in the pool UNLESS that cruiser went to the front desk and had the automatic daily gratuity taken off, which they can do. In that event, the staff working for those people are required to put their "envelope" money in the pool to be split among everyone.
Some might ask how are they going to enforce this rule? I understand the threat of termination on the spot if they are caught not reporting is the tactic. I imagine that the staff involved with the cruisers who "wipe off" the daily gratuity are informed when this is done and at that time are advised they must report anything these people might have given them.
Again, if the personal tips are in addition to the standard daily gratuity fee, they are free to keep it all. HAL apparently only wants to make sure they get their (large) piece of the pie.:mad:

[grannynurse]

In the early 80's. We've been on NCL RCCI, and even the old Premier "Big Red Boat" many times. We had an 8 year hiatus in the 90's, and started cruising again in 2002.
We are older by 20+ years since our first cruise, the market has changed, the passenger demographics have changed, and so has the economy.

I know there are many factors that influenced our move to HAL. Initially it was the great new itinerary. But so what. HAL suits our present needs. We are not HAL appologists.
I don't think any of us needs to justify our choice of cruise line. And most of us are not. We're sharing our love of cruising, our experience and information. I thought that's what this board was for.
Hey, I'm happy with HAL, so I'll stay, until I'm not happy.
GN

[caribbean girl]

HeatherInFlorida;
For what it's worth, I like your style!!;)

[ryansmemom]

It is a simple fact that whether or not a person has enjoyed an experience or not is a subjective experience. I do not see how anyone can possibly tell another person that their subjective experience is wrong.

We all have the right to choose how we spend our hard earned money on our cruises. We all have our individual likes and dislikes. Our own attitudes and priorities. We all have our levels of tolerance. What may make or break a cruise for one person may be a simple annoyance for another.

Chimera and I have over 15 cruises under our belts with RCI and HAL. We enjoyed both lines for different reasons. As far as we are concerned we will continue to sail with HAL or any other line as long as it continues to be a positive experience for us. The operative word being us. We are not shy about making changes when the situation warrents, in our opinion. We recently purchased a new car. We decided to purchase a different model from a different dealer than the company we had purchased cars from for the past 25 years because they were not serving our needs and we found a better product.

This thread, in my opinion, has a nasty tone to it. It questions people's perceptions of their experiences and feelings. One may ask the question, has service declined? One may counter with, have prices also diminished? These are questions that may have answers based in fact. We can look at crew/passenger ratios and fare schedules. The more sinister questions are based on the concept that there might be something wrong with someone who is not dissatisfied with HAL enough to stop sailing with them. This is just plain disrespectful and insulting and I believe many of us are reacting to that.

I do not think anyone has the right to judge another person's choices based on their personal satisfaction and evaluation of whether or not they are enjoying their experience. That my friends is what we call chutzpah!

Linda

[grannynurse]

You said it better than I thought it or wrote it.
GN