Disembarking before final port

[mimigirl54]

We are sailing on the Statendam this spring from Ft. Lauderdale to Vancouver, BC. We actually live in Port Angeles, Washington and the ship is stopping there the day before it docks in Vancouver. We are planning on disembarking in Port Angeles and are running into problems with HAL.

Has anyone out there ever disembarked early? We have already made arrangements with U.S. Customs to meet us and clear us upon arriving in P.A. Will we be held captive by HAL in our staterooms if we try to get off early? I'm too old to go to jail. :o

[gregdude]

There may be a legal issue here because there is a US law concerning non-US flagged ships sailing from one US port and disembarking passengers in another US port. This has nothing to do with immigration or customs. For the same reason they can't sail from San Diego to Hawaii and return to San Diego without making a stop in a Mexican port, even if the stop is for only thirty minutes.

I'm not sure if this is what is causing your problem, but it could be.

[Roz]

Mimi,

You need to disembark in Vancouver to meet the foreign port requirement. Otherwise the cruise line gets fined.

Roz

[gregdude]

Yes, I just looked at all the HAL Pacific Coastal cruises and they all start in one county and end in the other. My prior post was correct, you can't get off, other than to visit, until you reach Canada.

[jtl513]

IF your ship stops in Cartagena before going through the Panama Canal, that should satisfy the "distant foreign port" requirement of the Passenger Vessel Services Act, and you shouldn't be fined for getting off in any US port. We stopped at Cartegena, and therefore got off at Los Angeles with no problem.

However, if you only stop at ports in Nicaragua, Guatemala, Costa Rica, or Mexico, those are not considered distant foreign ports, and you will either be prevented from getting off at Port Angeles or fined for doing so. (I think the fine is like $300 pp.)

EDIT: I just looked at your intinerary, and saw that you are stopping at Aruba. I think that also qualifies as a distant foreign port (if it is considered part of South America) and should enable you to get off in WA. I'll look further.

[mimigirl54]

IF your ship stops in Cartagena before going through the Panama Canal, that should satisfy the "distant foreign port" requirement of the Passenger Vessel Services Act, and you shouldn't be fined for getting off in any US port. We stopped at Cartegena, and therefore got off at Los Angeles with no problem.

However, if you only stop at ports in Nicaragua, Guatemala, Costa Rica, or Mexico, those are not considered distant foreign ports, and you will either be prevented from getting off at Port Angeles or fined for doing so. (I think the fine is like $300 pp. Maybe $200.)

EDIT: I just looked at your intinerary, and saw that you are stopping at Aruba. I think that also qualifies as a distant foreign port (if it is considered part of South America) and should enable you to get off in WA. I'll look further.

So who fines you? HAL or the government? When I asked (on one of my MANY phone calls to HAL) what would happen if we just got off, the agent put me on hold, talked to the mysterious upper management person, then came back on and laughingly said, "I don't know! We've never had anyone do that."

Since the ship stops in San Diego and many of the passengers disembark there, doesn't that say something about traveling from one US port to another? Why could they get off in San Diego and not in Port Angeles?

[jtl513]

Okay, since your cruise can be booked as a 17-day, getting off in San Diego, Aruba must qualify as a distant foreign port. If you can get off in S.D., you should be able to get off in WA as far as the PVSA is concerned. Now, HAL may have reasons other than the PVSA for not wanting to let you off in WA.

HAL fines PVSA violaters on behalf of the US government. Or maybe the government actually fines HAL, and HAL recovers that money from you. I'm not sure.

[mimigirl54]

Okay, since your cruise can be booked as a 17-day, getting off in San Diego, Aruba must qualify as a distant foreign port. If you can get off in S.D., you should be able to get off in WA as far as the PVSA is concerned. Now, HAL may have reasons other than the PVSA for not wanting to let you off in WA.

HAL actually fines you on behalf of the US government. Or maybe the government actually fines HAL, and HAL recovers that money from you.

These (very quick) replies have been a lot of help. I think HAL's main problem is that they don't get requests like these and they just don't want to be bothered. As far as I can tell, all they're going to have to do is "check us out" at the main desk when we get off. My husband worked for US Customs in Port Angeles for nearly 20 years. He has talked to the agents here and they said to just call them a couple hours before we disembark and they'll come clear us. (They're going to call HAL for us...we'll see what happens.)

The REALLY frustrating part about this is that I called HAL BEFORE booking the cruise, asked if we could get off in P.A., was put on hold, agent came back and said, "sure, no problem, just let us know in advance". Then AFTER booking everyone said uh uh, no way, not happening. With no real reason. (I feel a revolution brewing.......):cool:

[ldog]

We just spent an overnight in Israel away from the ship. There is a form that you fill in at the front office. You will not receive any discount or money back.

[jtl513]

The REALLY frustrating part about this is that I called HAL BEFORE booking the cruise, asked if we could get off in P.A., was put on hold, agent came back and said, "sure, no problem, just let us know in advance". Then AFTER booking everyone said uh uh, no way, not happening. With no real reason. (I feel a revolution brewing.......):cool:Unfortunately, getting contradictory answers from HAL on different days, or even different hours of the same day, happens all too often. I think you're right that they think they have to do something special for you. Stick to your guns! :D

[ldog]

If the ship stops in San Diego you will already have cleared customs there won't you?

[mimigirl54]

If the ship stops in San Diego you will already have cleared customs there won't you?

I don't know. Since we're not disembarking there I don't know if everyone goes through customs at that point or if the passengers continuing to Vancouver go through Canadian customs and then though US customs wherever they make their entry. Too bad all this stuff has to be so dang complicated!

[jtl513]

I don't know. Since we're not disembarking there I don't know if everyone goes through customs at that point or if the passengers continuing to Vancouver go through Canadian customs and then though US customs wherever they make their entry. Too bad all this stuff has to be so dang complicated!I think ldog is right. When we got off in L.A., everyone (including Canadians) had to pass a US CBP check that morning because it was the first US port after several foreign ports. If that's the case, Port Angeles authorities may have to do nothing for you.

[sapper1]

This last August we took a 26 day Baltic/Transatlantic cruise which was to terminate in NYC. As we approached Halifax, Nova Scotia, we decided that we could rent a car and be home in four hours, as opposed to continuing on to NYC where we would then have to fly to Toronto, spend the night and then fly home to Saint John.
We asked at the front desk if we could do this and it was no problem. We had to sign a form which stated we would not seek compensation from HAL for the uncompleted portion of the cruise and were told to present ourselves to Canadian immigration in the Hudson Room with our luggage shortly after we docked. When we got there we saw that about 40 other people had the same idea. HAL was very helpful with regard to getting our luggage to the curb, where the rental company picked us up.
However, I might add that we were not being transported from one US port to another, so that may have some bearing on our being allowed to leave.

[mimigirl54]

My goodness! This just keeps getting curiouser and curioser! :rolleyes:

[heathriel]

We just disembarked our 19day Panama Canal cruise in Cabo San Lucas - and let the Oosterdam continue on her way to San Diego.

9 other passengers disembarked with us (although we had to go at different times, since it was a tender port, and we couldn't go until immigration cleared our passports after noon or so), so it isn't an unusual thing to do. We even had our own porter to take ou r luggage right from the tender to our rental car. (Try THAT on disembarkation day!) The problem is that you're going from US port to US port, before they're leaving the country. They can be fined $300 per person for that.

HOWEVER - the cruise line cannot hold you hostage. You *can* leave the ship at any time once you are aboard. Imagine what would happen if you fell ill and they wouldn't let you leave the ship until you left the country?

Board the ship, and the night before you get to your port, inform them that you are planning to leave. That will give them time to have a customs agent meet you at the port when they arrive, and have you fill out the proper paperwork.

[vjblk]

I don't know if I fully understand the Passenger Services Act since it doesn't always read so clearly but because they are sailing from San Diego to Port Angeles with no foreign stop in between, doesn't that violate this act? I would think it would since they are not suppose to transport passengers between 2 different US ports without a distant foreign stop in between.

[jtl513]

I don't know if I fully understand the Passenger Services Act since it doesn't always read so clearly but because they are sailing from San Diego to Port Angeles with no foreign stop in between, doesn't that violate this act?
The problem is that you're going from US port to US port, before they're leaving the country. They can be fined $300 per person for that.You're both right ... San Diego to Port Angeles would be a PVSA violation! :o:o So, mimigirl54, are you willing to risk a $300 pp fine?

[mimigirl54]

You're both right ... San Diego to Port Angeles would be a PVSA violation! :o:o So, mimigirl54, are you willing to risk a $300 pp fine?

Oh, oh. This may be where the "glitch" is coming from. I might be willing to take a chance on the fine just because it's so difficult to get from Vancouver to P.A. No planes, no trains, no buses and a rental car would probably be REALLY expensive with a drop fee outside of Canada. Plus it would be very sad to stand on the ship's deck and watch my beloved home town fading into the distance. :(

I wish I knew for sure who would file the claim. If it's customs I don't think our friends would do that! But if it's the IRS or TSB or Homeland Security or the FBI or CIA or some other nefarious source I'll be scared. Oh what to do, what to do.

[jtl513]

Oh, oh. This may be where the "glitch" is coming from.On the other hand, you're not getting on in San Diego ... so maybe the PVSA doesn't apply to you after after all. :confused::confused:

[catl331]

Oh, oh. This may be where the "glitch" is coming from.

I wish I knew for sure who would file the claim. If it's customs I don't think our friends would do that! But if it's the IRS or TSB or Homeland Security or the FBI or CIA or some other nefarious source I'll be scared. Oh what to do, what to do.

On the other hand, you're not getting on in San Diego ... so maybe the PVSA doesn't apply to you after all. :confused::confused:Can your DH's friends clarify whether the PVSA applies to someone stopping at but not initially embarking in San Diego?

[mimigirl54]

Can your DH's friends clarify whether the PVSA applies to someone stopping at but not initially embarking in San Diego?

I would certainly think so. Maybe. I hope. We'll ask!

[catl331]

Just out of curiosity, how would a ship the size of the Statendam go from Port Angeles to Vancouver? Is the channel on the east side of San Juan Island wide enough and deep enough, or would it have to go back out to sea and all the long way around Vancouver Island? Thanks! :)

[mimigirl54]

Just out of curiosity, how would a ship the size of the Statendam go from Port Angeles to Vancouver? Is the channel on the east side of San Juan Island wide enough and deep enough, or would it have to go back out to sea and all the long way around Vancouver Island? Thanks! :)

It will travel through the Strait of Georgia (east side) to Vancouver. That's probably the same route the large state ferrys take from Vancouver to Victoria. That body of water is a lot larger than one would think!

[cruisinjudy]

On a Celebrity cruise starting in Vancouver, traveling to Alaska and ending in San Diego, my husband got off in San Francisco after the ship had made a stop in Seattle which should be similar to your cruise. Celebrity had no problem with it. The difference here is that we started in a foreign port. However, you will be stopping at that distant foreign port so it should be OK. Many Panama canal cruises that are repositioning allow passengers to get off at various ports on the west coast. We are booked on a Panama Canal cruise in 2011 that starts in Ft. Lauderdale and ends in Seattle with some people getting off in San Diego.

[Boytjie]

Okay, since your cruise can be booked as a 17-day, getting off in San Diego, Aruba must qualify as a distant foreign port. If you can get off in S.D., you should be able to get off in WA as far as the PVSA is concerned. Now, HAL may have reasons other than the PVSA for not wanting to let you off in WA.

Aruba does qualify as a foreign distant port.

HAL is also selling a 4-day San Diego to Vancouver segment on this cruise, perhaps that comes into play.

[StanandJim]

HAL may have reasons other than the PVSA for not wanting to let you off in WA.

If you look through your passage contract, you will find the following language:

The Whateverdam visits cruise ports in the itinerary under "Yacht Priveleges".
By these arrangements, cruise passengers are permitted ashore for sightseeing purposes with a minimum of government regulations. Under certain circumstances, passengers may be embarked or finally disembarked at local ports but such arrangements must be made in advance. Passengers electing to leave or join the cruise enroute are advised that they may be assessed any additional port dues, levies or taxes which are incurred as a result of changes in the ships' status occasioned by such local traffic. Such port dues, levies and taxes will be prorated among the passengers disembarking or embarking at the local ports.

In short, the ship pays lower taxes and fees in a through port than an embark/disembark port. If the actions of disembarking passengers change the status of the ship in that port, HAL will look to those passengers to pay those fees.

Is it really worth taking that chance?

[mimigirl54]

If you look through your passage contract, you will find the following language:

The Whateverdam visits cruise ports in the itinerary under "Yacht Priveleges".
By these arrangements, cruise passengers are permitted ashore for sightseeing purposes with a minimum of government regulations. Under certain circumstances, passengers may be embarked or finally disembarked at local ports but such arrangements must be made in advance. Passengers electing to leave or join the cruise enroute are advised that they may be assessed any additional port dues, levies or taxes which are incurred as a result of changes in the ships' status occasioned by such local traffic. Such port dues, levies and taxes will be prorated among the passengers disembarking or embarking at the local ports.

In short, the ship pays lower taxes and fees in a through port than an embark/disembark port. If the actions of disembarking passengers change the status of the ship in that port, HAL will look to those passengers to pay those fees.

Is it really worth taking that chance?

Wow. I thought I had gone over the cruise contract with a fine tooth comb, but I didn't see that. I did see that if you're on a round trip cruise leaving from a US port you can't get off somewhere else. But I also read that this does not apply to Panama Canal cruises. I'M SO CONFUSED!!!!!

[English_in_Spain]

We will be doing something similar next May. We are on the transatlantic from FLL to Barcelona but the last port of call is Alicante which is where we live.

If we were to stay on the ship to Barcelona we would have to fly home.

Before booking the cruise I checked with HAL that this would be possible. They had to first check with the Port Authority in Alicante to make sure it was ok with them.

I have an email confirmation from HAL that we will be able to leave in Alicante.

[StanandJim]

I have an email confirmation from HAL that we will be able to leave in AlicanteDear English in Spain-

Lets be clear here, I was never suggesting that one MAY NOT leave the ship at any point during the cruise. These are not prison ships, after all.

That one might, or might not, be discouraged from leaving the ship early by the threat of penalties and/or fees is what is at question.

As noted in my earlier post, the fee's that might change, if you disembark early, do not originate with Holland America and therefore, HAL would not be in a position to waive them, if the port bumps up those charges.

Port fees can vary by several thousand dollars when you are dealing with ships of this size. In this economy, I would not count on HAL eating those extra charges.

Common sense tells me that what you need in hand to avoid a problem with early disembarcation such as you describe, is something in writing from the Port Authorities in Alicante stating that your disembarking will not effect the "through-statis" of the ship, and that the fee structure for that port stop will not be affected.

It might also be worth inquiring as to how many passengers leaving the ship WOULD cause them to change the fee.
You might be the only couple who wish to end that cruise early.......but what if there were ten of you? Or fifty?

Would there be any way to know that type of thing in advance?

One likes to think of public officials as enforcing the rules with an eye toward common sense, but if you are faced with one who is a sticker for detail.....

Anyway, get something from Alicante.

[English_in_Spain]

Dear English in Spain-

Lets be clear here, I was never suggesting that one MAY NOT leave the ship at any point during the cruise. These are not prison ships, after all.

That one might, or might not, be discouraged from leaving the ship early by the threat of penalties and/or fees is what is at question.

As noted in my earlier post, the fee's that might change, if you disembark early, do not originate with Holland America and therefore, HAL would not be in a position to waive them, if the port bumps up those charges.

Port fees can vary by several thousand dollars when you are dealing with ships of this size. In this economy, I would not count on HAL eating those extra charges.

Common sense tells me that what you need in hand to avoid a problem with early disembarcation such as you describe, is something in writing from the Port Authorities in Alicante stating that your disembarking will not effect the "through-statis" of the ship, and that the fee structure for that port stop will not be affected.

It might also be worth inquiring as to how many passengers leaving the ship WOULD cause them to change the fee.
You might be the only couple who wish to end that cruise early.......but what if there were ten of you? Or fifty?

Would there be any way to know that type of thing in advance?

One likes to think of public officials as enforcing the rules with an eye toward common sense, but if you are faced with one who is a sticker for detail.....

Anyway, get something from Alicante.

Thank you for that advice. I will contact our local Port Authority.

[Pam in CA]

Oh, oh. This may be where the "glitch" is coming from. I might be willing to take a chance on the fine just because it's so difficult to get from Vancouver to P.A. No planes, no trains, no buses and a rental car would probably be REALLY expensive with a drop fee outside of Canada. Plus it would be very sad to stand on the ship's deck and watch my beloved home town fading into the distance. :(

I wish I knew for sure who would file the claim. If it's customs I don't think our friends would do that! But if it's the IRS or TSB or Homeland Security or the FBI or CIA or some other nefarious source I'll be scared. Oh what to do, what to do.OK. If you go through Immigration in San Diego and then continue on to Vancouver, the PVSA rules don't apply as technically, you're sailing from a US port to a foreign port. By disembarking (port calls don't count as they are normally less than 24 hours) in Port Angeles, you are violating the PVSA. When you go through Immigration at a US port, it counts the same as an embarkation so thus you'd be embarking at a US port and disembarking at another US port without a stop at a FAR foreign port, a clear violation.

FYI, the cruiseline is fined by Homeland Security and they, of course, pass the charge on to you. They know where you live and have your CC # so if you just get off, you can bet you'll see that charge on your CC bill. Medical emergencies / evacuations get a waiver.

[alexandria]

We are sailing on the Statendam this spring from Ft. Lauderdale to Vancouver, BC. We actually live in Port Angeles, Washington and the ship is stopping there the day before it docks in Vancouver. We are planning on disembarking in Port Angeles and are running into problems with HAL.

Has anyone out there ever disembarked early? We have already made arrangements with U.S. Customs to meet us and clear us upon arriving in P.A. Will we be held captive by HAL in our staterooms if we try to get off early? I'm too old to go to jail. :o

Aruba is considered a distant foreign port under 19 CFR 4.80(a). Therefore, you can embark in Ft. Lauderdale and disembark in Port Angeles without violating PVSA as long as you have gone on the vessel to Aruba.

See 9 CFR 4.80(b)(3), which provides that: "If the passenger is on a voyage to one or more coastwise ports and a distant foreign port or ports (whether or not the voyage includes a nearby foreign port or ports) and the passenger disembarks at a coastwise port, there is no violation of the coastwise law provided the passenger has proceeded with the vessel to a distant foreign port."

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/aprqtr/pdf/19cfr4.80a.pdf

Hope this helps.

[alexandria]

OK. If you go through Immigration in San Diego and then continue on to Vancouver, the PVSA rules don't apply as technically, you're sailing from a US port to a foreign port. By disembarking (port calls don't count as they are normally less than 24 hours) in Port Angeles, you are violating the PVSA. When you go through Immigration at a US port, it counts the same as an embarkation so thus you'd be embarking at a US port and disembarking at another US port without a stop at a FAR foreign port, a clear violation.

FYI, the cruiseline is fined by Homeland Security and they, of course, pass the charge on to you. They know where you live and have your CC # so if you just get off, you can bet you'll see that charge on your CC bill. Medical emergencies / evacuations get a waiver.

Here is how embark and disembark are defined: "Embark means a passenger boarding a vessel for the duration of a specific voyage and disembark means a passenger leaving a vessel at the conclusion of a specific voyage. The terms embark and disembark are not applicable to a passenger going ashore temporarily at a coastwise port who reboards the vessel and departs with it on sailing from the port." Therefore, I believe if the OP temporarily goes ashore in any US port prior to Port Angeles, it does not constitute disembarkation unless the OP does not reboard.

[Jemima]

The US disembarkation port for this cruise is San Diego. OP is sailing from Fort Lauderdale to San Diego where most passengers will disembark. New passengers will board in San Diego for the San Diego to Vancouver cruise. Look at all the northbound Pacific coastal cruises. All of them end in Canada, not in a US port. The spring Panama Canal repo cruises disembark many, probably most, passengers in San Diego, and none on them end in Seattle. Look at the ships which will sail Alaskan cruises from San Diego. The repo ends in Vancouver and then there is a one day cruise from Vancouver to Seattle.

[alexandria]

HAL has two cruises listed for the Statendam sailing from Ft. Lauderdale for April 2010, the 17 day Winter Panama Canal Discovery ending in San Diego and the 21 day Winter Panama Canal Discovery ending in Vancouver, which appears to be the cruise OP has booked. If that is the cruise OP booked, there shouldn't be a violation disembarking in Port Angeles.

Now, if OP booked the 17 day Winter Panama Canal Discovery followed by the 4 day Spring Pacific Coastal as a B2B, that may be a different matter, depending on what HAL and the feds consider the port of embarkation (Ft. Lauderdale or San Diego) when OP disembarks.

[Jemima]

Now, if OP booked the 17 day Winter Panama Canal Discovery followed by the 4 day Spring Pacific Coastal as a B2B, that may be a different matter, depending on what HAL and the feds consider the port of embarkation (Ft. Lauderdale or San Diego) when OP disembarks.

I think the 21 day cruise is a B2B even through it was booked as one cruise. Reread my previous post. The cruise begins in Fort Lauderdale, includes a distant foreign port, disembarks passengers at San Diego and also embarks some new passengers there. I'd guess that San Diego is the end of the cruise and that the Pacific coast leg has to be treated as another cruise.

The last line on my previous cruise should have read "Look at the ships which will sail Alaskan cruises from San Diego. The repo ends in Vancouver and then there is a one day cruise from Vancouver to Seattle".

[jtl513]

I think the 21 day cruise is a B2B even through it was booked as one cruise.I disagree. I think it is a 21-day cruise ending in Vancouver, which can also be booked as a 17-day segment or a 4-day segment.

Just because everyone has to pass a CBP check (as it is the first US port after having been out of the country) does not mean that it is the end of the cruise. In the Caribbean many cruises are subjected to a CBP check in St Thomas, but the cruises end in FLL.

When we did a spring repo on the Amsterdam, I would guesstimate that about 20% to 25% got off in L.A., and the majority went on to Vancouver. A great many on our cruise were Canadian.

[Jemima]

Perhaps we should ask DBA.

[RuthC]

The PVSA is only concerned with the ports where the passenger first embarks, and leaves the ship for the final time, and what foreign ports the ship has stopped at in between. In OP's case, boarding is in Ft. Lauderdale, proposed disembarkation is Port Angeles, and the ship will stop at a distant foreign port.
There does not appear to by any violation of the PVSA.

The problem may lie in whether or not there is CBP staff in Port Angeles who can process a passenger for disembarkation, as opposed to a 1-day visit.
All passengers should complete Immigration at the first US port, but Customs is only done at disembarkation. Port Angeles may not be set up to handle Customs.

[gentlemancruiser]

This last August we took a 26 day Baltic/Transatlantic cruise which was to terminate in NYC. As we approached Halifax, Nova Scotia, we decided that we could rent a car and be home in four hours, as opposed to continuing on to NYC where we would then have to fly to Toronto, spend the night and then fly home to Saint John.
We asked at the front desk if we could do this and it was no problem. We had to sign a form which stated we would not seek compensation from HAL for the uncompleted portion of the cruise and were told to present ourselves to Canadian immigration in the Hudson Room with our luggage shortly after we docked. When we got there we saw that about 40 other people had the same idea. HAL was very helpful with regard to getting our luggage to the curb, where the rental company picked us up.
However, I might add that we were not being transported from one US port to another, so that may have some bearing on our being allowed to leave.

Hi Sapper,
The difference here is that you were not traveling between two US ports.
Bruce

Regardless weather you get off the ship in a port, you are considered to have landed in a us port. The ship is cleared and you are a passenger, so you are cleared in San Diego as well. Some passengers may be finishing their cruise in San Diego.
The other posters are correct, due to the current law you cannot finish your cruise at Port Angeles.

[RuthC]

The other posters are correct, due to the current law you cannot finish your cruise at Port Angeles.
For reasons having nothing to do with the PVSA, however. Exactly what those reasons are has not been established, but it is not the PVSA.

[jtl513]

The problem may lie in whether or not there is CBP staff in Port Angeles who can process a passenger for disembarkation, as opposed to a 1-day visit.
All passengers should complete Immigration at the first US port, but Customs is only done at disembarkation. Port Angeles may not be set up to handle Customs. But in post #8 the OP said:
My husband worked for US Customs in Port Angeles for nearly 20 years. He has talked to the agents here and they said to just call them a couple hours before we disembark and they'll come clear us.

[RuthC]

But in post #8 the OP said:
My husband worked for US Customs in Port Angeles for nearly 20 years. He has talked to the agents here and they said to just call them a couple hours before we disembark and they'll come clear us. (They're going to call HAL for us...we'll see what happens.)
Possibly that's only a lack of communication that special arrangements are being made. As soon as HAL has confirmation that CBP can do it's thing, then the matter will be resolved.

[mimigirl54]

Possibly that's only a lack of communication that special arrangements are being made. As soon as HAL has confirmation that CBP can do it's thing, then the matter will be resolved.

Boy, I hope you're right! :)

[StanandJim]

We don't want to leave poor Ruth C as the only voice of reason here, so we will venture into the fray, once more-

There are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT issues being discussed in this thread:

Issue # 1 is the Passenger Vessel Services Act which states that no foreign vessel shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger.

Issue #2 concerns the status of the ship in a so called "through-port", and how a passenger disembarking early might effect that status.

It is entirely possible for a passenger to be in compliance with the PVSA, for example, yet run afoul of the regulations for passengers who are using a port as part of a cruise itinerary (see "yacht privileges" in our post above).

As Ruth very correctly pointed out, if a port is not the official port of embarcation/disembarkation, that port will supply different services to those passengers.

[I_r_a]

Hi mimi,

I asked HAL a few weeks ago about ending a cruise early.

You have to pay for the full cruise.

You have to get written permission from HAL and the ship's captain.

[mimigirl54]

Hi mimi,

I asked HAL a few weeks ago about ending a cruise early.

You have to pay for the full cruise.

You have to get written permission from HAL and the ship's captain.

You'd better ask again, because as I originally said, I was told by HAL before booking that we could get off in Port Angeles as long as we informed them ahead of time. And now they're saying we can't get off. So be sure you get that written permission, because I asked them if I could have something in writing and they said, "no".

[jtl513]

I might be willing to take a chance on the fine just because it's so difficult to get from Vancouver to P.A. No planes, no trains, no buses and a rental car would probably be REALLY expensive with a drop fee outside of Canada.If it turns out that you truly can't get off in P.A., what about driving your own car to Vancouver and flying to FLL from there? Not nearly as good as getting off "at home", I know ... :(

[mimigirl54]

If it turns out that you truly can't get off in P.A., what about driving your own car to Vancouver and flying to FLL from there? Not nearly as good as getting off "at home", I know ... :(

Good idea, but no can do. I got a super air fare many months ago (Seattle to Ft. Lauderdale) from Delta ($125 per person) and it's unrefundable. I'm too cheap to "eat" $250! :o What we'll probably end up doing is 1) Take our suitcases home while in Port Angeles; 2) get back on the ship and mutter a few impolite words under my breath as we sail away; 3) take a bus from Vancouver to Seattle for about 4 hours; 4) have our daughter pick us up, go out to lunch/dinner; 5) have said daughter take us to either the Bainbridge Island or Kingston ferry; 6) ride ferry; 7) have our son meet us there, after driving for 1 1/2 hours to get there; 8) drive the 1 1/2 hours back to Port Angeles. Bleech!

[jtl513]

Good idea, but no can do. I got a super air fare many months ago (Seattle to Ft. Lauderdale) from Delta ($125 per person) and it's unrefundable. I'm too cheap to "eat" $250! :oSo you'll be parking your car at Seatac then? Aren't there some kind of buses (or HAL transfers?) between Canada Place and SEA? :confused:

[IRL_Joanie]

We are sailing on the Statendam this spring from Ft. Lauderdale to Vancouver, BC. We actually live in Port Angeles, Washington and the ship is stopping there the day before it docks in Vancouver. We are planning on disembarking in Port Angeles and are running into problems with HAL.

Has anyone out there ever disembarked early? We have already made arrangements with U.S. Customs to meet us and clear us upon arriving in P.A. Will we be held captive by HAL in our staterooms if we try to get off early? I'm too old to go to jail. :o


I was reading on another website and came across a link that I think explains the Passenger Service Act (PSA) definitively, and believe it or not, it is on a Canadian web site!!

Here is the portion that I think is most definitive and why HAL says you cannot get of in Port Angeles:

I quote:"A cruise originating in Los Angeles or Seattle and terminating in Whittier is NOT permitted since the cruise originates and terminates in different U.S. cities and does not call at a distant foreign port Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands do qualify as distant foreign ports.


In addition, passengers may travel between 2 U.S. ports if they travel on 2 different ships as Passenger Services Act violations are ship-specific. A violation occurs when a ship (not two ships) transports passengers between two different U.S. ports.

Even if the passengers disembark completely from the 1st voyage and then return to the pier to embark the 2nd voyage – it is still a violation of the PSA." Unquote


To read the full statement/description go here: http://seatravel.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/passenger-services-act-united-states/


Joanie

[jtl513]

I think I found the Legal answer Sorry, but that's not the answer. The cruise will be stopping at Aruba (one of the ABC Islands that does qualify as a distant foreign port) so it is perfectly legal for anyone who was on the ship at the time it stopped at Aruba to subsequently get off at any US port - and many will at San Diego.

There is some other reason that HAL does want to let them off at Port Angeles.

[IRL_Joanie]

Sorry, but that's not the answer. The cruise will be stopping at Aruba (one of the ABC Islands that does qualify as a distant foreign port) so it is perfectly legal for anyone who was on the ship at the time it stopped at Aruba to subsequently get off at any US port - and many will at San Diego.

There is some other reason that HAL does want to let them off at Port Angeles.


John, this is what I think speaks clearly as to why they cannot get off in P.A.

A violation occurs when a ship (not two ships) transports passengers between two different U.S. ports.

Even if the passengers disembark completely from the 1st voyage and then return to the pier to embark the 2nd voyage – it is still a violation of the PSA.

This would mean Seattle to P.A. is literally being transported between 2 US Ports. Even if the ship goes to china before going to Seattle, it is still traveling between Seattle and P.A. that violates the PSA.

Joanie

[mimigirl54]

So you'll be parking your car at Seatac then? Aren't there some kind of buses (or HAL transfers?) between Canada Place and SEA? :confused:

No, we'll have our son shuttle us to the ferry and then our daughter will pick us up and take us to the airport. Or we'll drive our own car, go to her house, pick her up and have her take us to the airport and then keep the car at her house while we're on the cruise.

There is a Gray Hound bus from downtown Vancouver to downtown Seattle for around $39.00 if we prebook; it goes up to over $50.00 if we buy tickets the day of.

[jtl513]

John, this is what I think speaks clearly as to why they cannot get off in P.A.

A violation occurs when a ship (not two ships) transports passengers between two different U.S. ports.

Even if the passengers disembark completely from the 1st voyage and then return to the pier to embark the 2nd voyage – it is still a violation of the PSA.

This would mean Seattle to P.A. is literally being transported between 2 US Ports. Even if the ship goes to china before going to Seattle, it is still traveling between Seattle and P.A. that violates the PSA.

JoanieWell, first of all the ship is not going from Seattle to Port Angeles, or Port Angeles to Seattle. After the Panama Canal transit and a few stops in Central America and Mexico, the ship stops at San Diego, Port Angeles, and then ends its voyage in Vancouver. But regardless - as RuthC said in post #40 of this thread:
The PVSA is only concerned with the ports where the passenger first embarks, and leaves the ship for the final time, and what foreign ports the ship has stopped at in between. In OP's case, boarding is in Ft. Lauderdale, proposed disembarkation is Port Angeles, and the ship will stop at a distant foreign port.
There does not appear to by any violation of the PVSA.
San Diego is not the end of one voyage and start of another for the OP. It is merely a stop along the way. If the OP were boarding in San Diego she could not get off in Port Angeles without violating the PVSA, but that's not the case here.

As I said, there is some other reason that HAL is saying that she can not get off at Port Angeles ... possibly just a misunderstanding by someone at HAL HQ, or possibly a difference in the port fees that HAL would have to pay to debark passengers at P.A. as someone suggested above.

[mimigirl54]

Well....my husband talked to Port Angeles Customs today and they said the law that applies to transporting passengers between U.S. ports is "archaic" (or something like that) and won't affect us. They tried calling HA, but couldn't get through and the Port Director is going to try again. He said if anyone levied a fine it would come from Customs, and they won't do that, so it's looking like we'll get off here in deed! At least that's the news as of 5:58 on 12/2!

[jtl513]

... so it's looking like we'll get off here in deed! At least that's the news as of 5:58 on 12/2!Good news! :)

[mimigirl54]

Here's the next installment. DH talked to the Port Director today. He (PD) called HA and got the same run around we've been getting. So.....I just sent a very long, very detailed to HA asking them for either permission to disembark or a reasonable reason as to why they are being so stubborn! (Well, I didn't use those EXACT words, but you get my drift)

It will be interesting to see what they say.

[gentlemancruiser]

Well....my husband talked to Port Angeles Customs today and they said the law that applies to transporting passengers between U.S. ports is "archaic" (or something like that) and won't affect us. They tried calling HA, but couldn't get through and the Port Director is going to try again. He said if anyone levied a fine it would come from Customs, and they won't do that, so it's looking like we'll get off here in deed! At least that's the news as of 5:58 on 12/2!

Have you looked into the CoHo ferry, Victoria as an option? There is a Pacific Coach bus that takes you from Vancouver to Victoria, you ferry across to PA.

http://www.pacificcoach.com/SchedulesFares/VancouvertoVictoria

[mimigirl54]

Have you looked into the CoHo ferry, Victoria as an option? There is a Pacific Coach bus that takes you from Vancouver to Victoria, you ferry across to PA.

http://www.pacificcoach.com/SchedulesFares/VancouvertoVictoria

I thought about that, but with our daughter living in Seattle and our son living in PA (who would come pick us up at the ferry) I think that would be easier. That said.....I just want to go home when we get to Port Angeles on the ship! :(

[mimigirl54]

RuthC:

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand...I just want to say: I hope we end up on the same cruise sometime! You look like a really fun lady.

[RuthC]

RuthC:

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand...I just want to say: I hope we end up on the same cruise sometime! You look like a really fun lady.
Ooooo. Thanks! :) It would be my pleasure.
(and I think I'm kind of fun; so do the grandgirls ;). the other grandmas don't want them to get in trouble; I show them how to get out of it. :o)

Hope this all works out for you. The letter to HAL asking for a reasonable explanation was a good idea.

[mimigirl54]

Ooooo. Thanks! :) It would be my pleasure.
(and I think I'm kind of fun; so do the grandgirls ;). the other grandmas don't want them to get in trouble; I show them how to get out of it. :o)

Hope this all works out for you. The letter to HAL asking for a reasonable explanation was a good idea.

By the way, what does the "10,000 + club" refer to? Nights you've spent on a ship?

[RuthC]

By the way, what does the "10,000 + club" refer to? Nights you've spent on a ship?
LOL! I wish it were nights on a ship (but I'm working on it).
All the "10,000 + club" means is that I have far too much time on my hands, and spend it posting here. Keep at it and you can join the club, too. It's not at all exclusive.

[English_in_Spain]

Here's the next installment. DH talked to the Port Director today. He (PD) called HA and got the same run around we've been getting. So.....I just sent a very long, very detailed to HA asking them for either permission to disembark or a reasonable reason as to why they are being so stubborn! (Well, I didn't use those EXACT words, but you get my drift)

It will be interesting to see what they say.

Please let us know what the outcome is.

I am interested in case it affects my cruise next May. I am doing a B2B2B (total 33 days) and if they say I cannot disembark in Alicante I will cancel the cruise.

[mimigirl54]

No reply from HA yet. Don't know if that's good news or bad news.....

[RuthC]

At least it's the lack of bad news. And that's good news for now. :)

[mimigirl54]

Here's the reply I finally received from HA:

"Thank you for your recent correspondence with Holland America Line regarding the disembarkation of the Statendam, April 25, 2010 voyage in Port Angeles, WA. Our Ship Inventory Department who is responsible for obtaining permission for special embarkation/disembarkation requests has advised us they are trying to get special permission for you to debark on May 15, 2010 in Port Angeles. At this time the Port Operations has advised us we cannot allow the disembarkation, regardless of whether US Border Patrol allows it or not. However, our Ship Inventory has advised us they are pursuing obtaining permission which may take a while, if it?s approved at all. We cannot guarantee it will be approved."

They then said they would let us know at some undefined point in the future. Actually they said they would tell our travel agent. Since our "travel agent" is an on-line booking source and I have no relationship with an individual there I asked if they would fax the information to me as well. Have to wait and see what they say about that.

I would, however, like to say at this time that I'm sorry for all my complaining and moaning about this situation. I'm a Christian, and God has pointed out that very few people in the world are able to take a cruise like this, and I need to be grateful and appreciative about it no matter where I get off the ship. And, as my DH says, "If we have to get off in Vancouver we'll have one more day of vacation!"

So, no matter what HA's final decision is, we're going, we'll have a marvelous time, and I'm looking forward to it. Thanks to all of you who contributed to this board and if we ever do, in fact, get a final decision I'll let you know what it is!

[IRL_Joanie]

Here's the reply I finally received from HA:

"Thank you for your recent correspondence with Holland America Line regarding the disembarkation of the Statendam, April 25, 2010 voyage in Port Angeles, WA. Our Ship Inventory Department who is responsible for obtaining permission for special embarkation/disembarkation requests has advised us they are trying to get special permission for you to debark on May 15, 2010 in Port Angeles. At this time the Port Operations has advised us we cannot allow the disembarkation, regardless of whether US Border Patrol allows it or not. However, our Ship Inventory has advised us they are pursuing obtaining permission which may take a while, if it?s approved at all. We cannot guarantee it will be approved."

They then said they would let us know at some undefined point in the future. Actually they said they would tell our travel agent. Since our "travel agent" is an on-line booking source and I have no relationship with an individual there I asked if they would fax the information to me as well. Have to wait and see what they say about that.

I would, however, like to say at this time that I'm sorry for all my complaining and moaning about this situation. I'm a Christian, and God has pointed out that very few people in the world are able to take a cruise like this, and I need to be grateful and appreciative about it no matter where I get off the ship. And, as my DH says, "If we have to get off in Vancouver we'll have one more day of vacation!"

So, no matter what HA's final decision is, we're going, we'll have a marvelous time, and I'm looking forward to it. Thanks to all of you who contributed to this board and if we ever do, in fact, get a final decision I'll let you know what it is!


mimigirl54 it is good to hear that HAL is trying to work for you!!

And you are so right, about the blessings of an extra day of vacation, if necessary:)

Joanie

[bishop84]

We are sailing on the Statendam this spring from Ft. Lauderdale to Vancouver, BC. We actually live in Port Angeles, Washington and the ship is stopping there the day before it docks in Vancouver. We are planning on disembarking in Port Angeles and are running into problems with HAL.

Has anyone out there ever disembarked early? We have already made arrangements with U.S. Customs to meet us and clear us upon arriving in P.A. Will we be held captive by HAL in our staterooms if we try to get off early? I'm too old to go to jail. :o

At what level at HAL are you discussing this with? I would suggest you ask to be connected to a supervisor or higher and sort this situation out.
If you have arranged through the Port Angeles Customs office to be cleared there should not be a problem, maybe you can get something in writing from CBP to send to HAL?

In the past I have seen a lot of confusion with the Passenger Services Act with Travel Agents, Cruise Lines and even Customs Officers getting confused. As there is probably a change of passengers in San Diego whoever you spoke to at HAL may just looking at the voyage as San Diego to Port Angeles which would be in violation of the act and not the entire voyage from Fort Lauderdale.

[mimigirl54]

At what level at HAL are you discussing this with? I would suggest you ask to be connected to a supervisor or higher and sort this situation out.
If you have arranged through the Port Angeles Customs office to be cleared there should not be a problem, maybe you can get something in writing from CBP to send to HAL?

In the past I have seen a lot of confusion with the Passenger Services Act with Travel Agents, Cruise Lines and even Customs Officers getting confused. As there is probably a change of passengers in San Diego whoever you spoke to at HAL may just looking at the voyage as San Diego to Port Angeles which would be in violation of the act and not the entire voyage from Fort Lauderdale.

I've talked to supervisors. In the email I quote in a previous post they said that the situation has nothing to do with Border Patrol (I think they mean Customs). But they are trying to get an ok for us.

[Max2003]

I don't mean to muddy the water, but what are the ramifications of joining the ship at a later port. The case in point is that one of the party would like to join an eastbound transatlantic cruise on the European side and avoid the long days at sea. The other party would enjoy the whole cruise. I understand that both parties would have to book and pay for the entire cruise. It seems that where you board has much less to do with this problem than where you disembark, except the issue of any change in the through status of the ship and fees generated thereby.
And I realize in this case we are not dealing with the Jones Act foolishness.

Has anyone ever done this voluntarily?? I know there are many who have been forced to join at a later port because they missed the ship for various reasons.

Interesting topic.

[mimigirl54]

Happy day, happy day! I just received an email from our on-line booking agent telling us our request to disembark in Port Angeles has been approved by HAL!!!!! I'm a very happy camper.....er, sailor, I mean. :D

[jtl513]

Wahoo! Persistence paid off! :):)

[RuthC]

C'est bon! I'm happy for you. Thanks for coming back and letting us know that it did work out after all.

[Royalwatcher]

This last August we took a 26 day Baltic/Transatlantic cruise which was to terminate in NYC. As we approached Halifax, Nova Scotia, we decided that we could rent a car and be home in four hours, as opposed to continuing on to NYC where we would then have to fly to Toronto, spend the night and then fly home to Saint John.
We asked at the front desk if we could do this and it was no problem. We had to sign a form which stated we would not seek compensation from HAL for the uncompleted portion of the cruise and were told to present ourselves to Canadian immigration in the Hudson Room with our luggage shortly after we docked. When we got there we saw that about 40 other people had the same idea. HAL was very helpful with regard to getting our luggage to the curb, where the rental company picked us up.
However, I might add that we were not being transported from one US port to another, so that may have some bearing on our being allowed to leave.

Similar situation here. Am booked on the 9/11 7 day Alaska on the
Rotterdam out of SEA but planning on leaving the ship at it's last
port of call in Victoria, BC. My TA made the request to HAL; HAL issued
a letter of authorization ( also stipulating that there will be no credit
given for the shorter cruise segment), and to check with the front
desk once on-board to make these arrangement known in person prior
to disembarkation so that they can make the proper Customs
arrangements with Canadian officials.
HAL did indicate that there is a limit to how many guests can disembark
early. Depending on the cruise and where the guest may wish to disembark
I imagine that this stipulation has to do with the availabilty of customs
clearence personnel.
Have never requested early disembarkation before in a foreign port so
we'll see how it goes. I'll definitely have the authorization letter on my
person...just in case!

[Minne Wonka Girl]

It sounds like the situation is resolved, but you may wish to check car rental rates. I don't believe there's a drop-off fee.

[RevNeal]

I'm glad that this situation has been solved. Now I want to go back to something that was posted a bit earlier:

However, if you only stop at ports in Nicaragua, Guatemala, Costa Rica, or Mexico, those are not considered distant foreign ports, and you will either be prevented from getting off at Port Angeles or fined for doing so. (I think the fine is like $300 pp.)

While not considered a "distant" foreign port by the strict lettering of the law in question, apparently it is considered such for Hawaii cruises, which are San Diego - Hawaii - Ensenada Mexico - San Diego. In other words ... it all depends upon interpretation.

I sure wish they'd trash that law. It serves no purpose but to make life difficult for law abiding citizens and foreign flagged cruise lines.

[RuthC]

While not considered a "distant" foreign port by the strict lettering of the law in question, apparently it is considered such for Hawaii cruises, which are San Diego - Hawaii - Ensenada Mexico - San Diego. In other words ... it all depends upon interpretation.
The Hawaii cruise requires only a near foreign port, as it begins and ends in the same US port.
Ensenada, Mexico qualifies as a near foreign port.

[NMLady]

Happy day, happy day! I just received an email from our on-line booking agent telling us our request to disembark in Port Angeles has been approved by HAL!!!!! I'm a very happy camper.....er, sailor, I mean. :D

YAY!! I'm delighted for you. Now you can enjoy every second of your cruise.:)

[RevNeal]

The Hawaii cruise requires only a near foreign port, as it begins and ends in the same US port.
Ensenada, Mexico qualifies as a near foreign port.

Ah, thank you dearest Ruth! That makes sense.
Of course ... every other port on that cruise is also a US port. :)