A Few Quality Control Questions

[hensghan]

Does anyone else suspect, probably due in most part to economic circumstances and necessities, that mass market and even 'premier' cruising has perhaps now 'peaked,' and that most future cruises of these types are almost inevitably going to become less and less likely to match up to ones of previous years? I mean, is it possible that the 'golden age' of cruising has perhaps now passed and been irrevocably replaced with 'bottom line' cruising?

Does anyone think it is perhaps time for Holland America to consider notching their product back up somewhat -- even at some additional costs! -- so as to remain a truly 'premier' brand?

From many of the threads I'm recently reading, many HAL ships just don't seem to be that 'premier' anymore -- especially ones coming out of refurbishment and which especially ought to be so.

My recent HAL cruise was fantastic but, from all the negative comments I'm reading nowadays, I'm wondering if I just got lucky, and wondering if I really ought to be taking a chance on another one.

Personally, I always want to get the best value I can, of course, but I also want a solidly perfoming product -- and I'm old enough to realize that oftentimes you actually get only that which you pay for.

[SwissMyst]

One thing to also consider is the relative economic development and competition for jobs in Asia. Working on a ship is hard, demanding work and now there may be far better alternatives for top notch staff that keeps the best workers closer to home or in better jobs without being at sea for months at a time.

The service sector has been lacking for a long time in the US too. I think it is the passing of the generation last raised by Depression Age parents who instilled a pretty strong work ethic, which one does not see to the same degree as before.

Self- Sacrifice and putting customers first has been replaced with more personal fulfillment and job satisfaction demands from a newer generation. This fundamental shift is catching on world wide. (Which may not be the best attitude to retain when there are no so many fewer jobs today)

So those "good old days" in fact depended upon they being not so good for someone else. Just have to roll with it and expect to be a little more self-sufficient is the way I see it.

[sail7seas]

They need to survive these economic times and then can address to what level they are able to keep the product. If they don't survive these 'hard times', the rest of the conversation is moot.

[garydm]

I think the OP is absolutely correct. HAL's ships and staff are just as good as Crystal, but Crystal does a few things better at no huge cost but their rates are a lot higher. With a little effort and some changes (including bumping the fare a bit), HAL could provide a very competitive product to the really "premier" lines. HAL=great value. Crystal=a greater cruising experience but at a disproportionally greater price. I would gladly pay a bit more on HAL if I got more. I have suggested in the past on these boards that HAL try "signature cruises" where some voyages would provide greater amenities at a greater price. Same ships but an enhanced product. Things like non alcoholic beverages included, specialty coffee place included, internet included, no charge at specialty restaurants, etc.

Gary

[sail7seas]

<snip> I have suggested in the past on these boards that HAL try "signature cruises" where some voyages would provide greater amenities at a greater price. Same ships but an enhanced product. Things like non alcoholic beverages included, specialty coffee place included, internet included, no charge at specialty restaurants, etc.

Gary

What's the difference from which pocket you pay for those things? Pay it included in the fare or pay it on your shipboard bill?
Why does it matter from which pocket? :confused: I don't see that charging more and including these things vs. billing a la carte improves the product.

[MightyQuinn]

With a little effort and some changes (including bumping the fare a bit), HAL could provide a very competitive product to the really "premier" lines. HAL=great value. Crystal=a greater cruising experience but at a disproportionally greater price. I would gladly pay a bit more on HAL if I got more. I agree. When times get tough, tough choices must be made. When faced with the challenges of cost pressures & declining economies, HAL chose to lower prices. And with lower prices came a gradual erosion of the on-board product - reduced staffing & service, lesser quality menu ingredients & abandoning traditions. At the same time, HAL took scarce resources & put them into SOE refits to increase capacity of the older ships. Interesting choices with, as we're seeing now, unintended consequences.

As a customer, I care very much about the on-board product. I often wondered why HAL didn’t use their scarce resources to preserve & enhance the HAL experience? Why not protect the integrity of the on-board product & not allow a deterioration of standards? Why not offer a truly premium product & command a premium price? In my view, HAL was in an excellent position a few years ago to “own” the market between the premium mass-market lines & the luxury lines. They lost that opportunity. That space is now ably occupied by Azamara & Oceania.

I think HAL has been confused about its identity, its product & its customers for some time. They want so much to be all things to all people & not leave any money on the table. But at what cost? Will their loyal customers still be there when HAL figures it out? Perhaps not. But there will be new customers to take their place. And so it goes.

[sail7seas]

IMO, that is the answer: "There will be new customers."

[bbwex]

We have not sailed on HAL yet, but I have been reading the boards since we started planning our trip. I get the sense, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that HAL is not at the premium level. I have read more than once that the rooms are taken care of once a day. On Oceania, the hostess was in our room at least four times a day. There was almost no such thing as a dirty towel -- they were changed every time I turned around. We had one little problem and they had a service technician in our room in less than 5 minutes. Other than free wine and liquor, there is not one thing that a luxury line could have given us that we did not get.

[SwissMyst]

We have not sailed on HAL yet, but I have been reading the boards since we started planning our trip. I get the sense, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that HAL is not at the premium level. I have read more than once that the rooms are taken care of once a day. On Oceania, the hostess was in our room at least four times a day. There was almost no such thing as a dirty towel -- they were changed every time I turned around. We had one little problem and they had a service technician in our room in less than 5 minutes. Other than free wine and liquor, there is not one thing that a luxury line could have given us that we did not get.

How did your prices compare? That still remains key when comparisons with other ships are posted. I have never seen Oceania put in the same class as HAL for most of their ships. Celebrity and Princess lines tend to cluster in the same pricing group.

However, someone here compared the HAL Prinsendam to the Oceania because they are both smaller, more boutique ships and found similar pricing. But I do believe it's apples and oranges to compare Oceania to all the other HAL ships price to price which makes what you get for higher price Oceania quite different from what you pay for a typical (non Prinsendam) HAL cruise.

Though it does seem like HAL is having more than its share of major problems post dry-dock. I am sorry this is happening to them. They deserve better. The sad thing is they may scrap their smaller older ships so many of us love rather than try to fix them because that is clearly not working out.

[E-500]

This is an interesting thread. The biggest impact appears to be in the reported 25% reduction in staff. On our first HAL cruise in 2005 on the Z-Dam we had one room steward who had 15 cabins. Last year on the Maasdam, two stewards with 30 cabins, thought service diminished 5-10%. Main dining food was excellent on both cruises, we had AYW both times, although we were moved to late fixed the second week on the Maasdam. (Dining room manager approached us the last day of the first week at breakfast and asked if we wanted to move to fixed.) The service was equal/excellent across the board, with the fixed team interacting more as they got to know us.

The cruise directors staff has been reduced and results suggest less involvement with guests and minor burn-out.

I still think the product is 4 star, with terrific value. Our cost per diem has gone down each year including the cruise we are going on later this month on the Westerdam. The benefits of unpacking once, food available 24 hours a day, entertainment included, twice a day cabin attention, free fruit and ice in the cabins, robes etc. blow away a land based vacation at a cost of 25-50% more than a cruise.

I can't wait to see how the two weeks go on the Westerdam. HAL will survive. Staff reduction came about as a measure to remain competitive and hold costs in line while keeping pricing attractive.

[IRL_Joanie]

My thoughts are this:

If HAL were to concentrate more on upgrading what they already have in place, as opposed to adding to what there now is, we might all be happier.

For example, instead of taking out existing pools and replacing them with new, wading pools (which leak like sieves) and more staterooms, if they would remodel the interior and exterior without major modifications, (Hope that makes sense) it would I believe cost so much less, and give HAL happier customers, both returning and new.

HAL would then be able to, IMO, keep the prices the same, go back to the quality of service many of the more experienced HAL cruisers have repeatedly told us of and keep the HAL quality we all (well most of us) expect.

Just my opinion.

Joanie

[MightyQuinn]

We have not sailed on HAL yet, but I have been reading the boards since we started planning our trip. I get the sense, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that HAL is not at the premium level.It's a matter of language. HAL & Celebrity are generally regarded as being at the top of the mass market & are often called premium mass market. Azamara & Oceania occupy that unique spot between mass market & luxury which is truly premium.

[hensghan]

I found the assertion that 'sure, loyal customers may already have left by the time HAL figures out what they've been doing wrong, but that won't really matter to their bottom line because there will always be new customers coming along' to be rather specious. Yes, there will always be new customers coming down the pipeline but, yes, there will also always be new and different venues competing for them and their dollars.

I mean to say, once a restaurant or resort or any other service based business loses it core clientele, for whatever reason/s, recovery is always doubtful. The business may continue in existence, of course, but never as the same entity it once was. It becomes transformed into something entirely different.

Is this what is happening to HAL as they decrease prices, decrease amenities, decrease service, and decrease the travel experience? I'm just asking. Personally, I just somehow doubt that the Holland America we know can ever be as appealing to new generations of cruisers as they have been to us baby boomers and earliers, particularly with Royal Caribbean and others now seemingly offering more and more of what is apparently being demanded by these 'new' consumer cruisers. The new kids on the block just wouldn't seem all that likely to look first to HAL for their kind of entertainment.

Or, is HAL already looking ahead and realizing their current 'loyal' cruisers are a statistically diminishing breed, and simply looking to adapt their product to the different demands of 'new' cruisers?

Again, I'm just wondering and asking. All I know is that the HAL of today is pretty different from the HAL of even ten years ago, and the HAL of ten years from now will probably be significantly different from the HAL of today. Everything in life changes.

[Ya Ya Cruiser]

This is a very interesting thread. I have friends and relatives who will only cruise HAL - it is a line that seems to engender tremendous loyalty. Having cruised primarily Princess my husband and I booked our first HAL cruise last spring. We cruised on the Zuiderdam and to be honest I was surprised both at the condition of the ship (quite worn) and the decor(imo on the garish side). My husband and I were having the usual comparison chat and came to the conclusion that the cruise line "didn't seem to know what it wanted to be when it grew up". It seemed to be caught between wanting to appeal to its traditional customer base; yet recognizing that it had to move with the times, but didn't really know how to do that.

Princess, Celebrity and HAL have, in the industry, been considered the premium lines, RCI contemporary and, as previous posters have noted Oceania and Azamara (especially now with the new "Azamara Club") are between premium and luxury. Yet, HAL is consistently more expensive than Princess and Celebrity with the exception of the odd sale. Oceania is quite competitively priced I have friends going on an inaugural cruise of the Marina next year paying a very competitive cruise price including air and all sorts of other amenities.

I wish I knew what the answer was to get HAL back on track. We are sailing them again in March, but not without reservations as the reviews of the newly refurbished Rotterdam have not been very encouraging. This will be a test for us (and a long one at that!), so while I know we will have a wonderful time because we are visiting destinations that are on our bucket list; I hope the ship also lives up to the traditional HAL billing.

YaYa

[maxmia]

We will be first time HAL cruisers in May 2010. We have previously cruised with P & O, Star Cruises, and Princess.
This will be an interesting experience for us, to compare the service and food.
Each cruise has been different, but each has been so enjoyable.
We have noticed a decline in service with P & O, (less staff) but still the crew do their best, and the whole cruise was a lot of fun.
Each time we cruise we go with an open mind, we have never been disappointed, small difficulties can usually be overcome, if not, it is part of the cruise experience, something to talk about when we get back home.
The crew for the most part are eager to please, and you always have the option to reward them accordingly.