Get Used to Airline Delays

[Giorgi-one]

I believe that the airline delays which occurred over the Christmas weekend will become more prevalent in the coming years as the full service airlines go out of business one by one. The competition is forcing all airlines to operate at maximum efficiency. This means minimizing all costs, reducing staff, reducing salaries, reducing maintenance, etc. All flights must fly full, so overbooking will become more prevalent. Southwest and other "bargain airlines" overbook all their flights. You have no guaranteed seats until you actually check in or board the plane, so it's basically a first-come, first-served situation. There are no extra planes sitting in a hanger to substitute for planes forced out of service. The airline industry has been in a downhill spiral every since it was deregulated. Yes, prices have come down, but service has suffered, and my fear is that safety will suffer in the coming years. Everyone loves the lower prices, but how would you feel if you had to take a 20% or 30% salary cut and work harder to keep your job. Cheaper is never better, it's just less expensive! There is a big difference!

[kryos]

I believe that the airline delays which occurred over the Christmas weekend will become more prevalent in the coming years as the full service airlines go out of business one by one.
I am such an IDIOT!

I have to take a trip to LA next April and was surfing the Travelocity website the other night. Believe it or not, I found roundtrip airfare ... direct flights both ways ... from Philly to LAX for $178.50 plus a $5 service charge. That's freakin cheap! Of course, I booked it immediately.

Now I realize ... boy, I'm a dope. The flights are with US Air. They will probably be out of business by next April. :(

Wonder how that sort of thing is handled ... especially if you pay by credit card?

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bicker]

It is surely becoming a much more relevant question. I've read casual comments online about consumer protection laws that would seem to indicate that credit card companies would be compelled to reverse charges for services-not-rendered, but I've never seen any citations indicating that such laws actually exist. Furthermore, assuming they do, how do you reverse charges against a vendor that has no assets, no resources from which to draw the reversal of charges? Legally, a bankrupt airline cannot incur new liabilities, and future customers are only unsecured creditors.

Any information on this that anyone has would be greatly appreciated!

[Giorgi-one]

I believe that there are FAA regulations which require airlines to honor tickets when one airline goes out of business. Of course, they can only honor the tickets if they have seats available, so you may not get the same time or even the same day. Not sure how credit card works. Usually, you can get a credit card refund within 6 months for servies not provided.

[bicker]

There are a variety of restrictions associated with the FAA regulation you're referring to (which, incidently, was recently renewed).

First, the airline that you're seeking alternative accommodation on must fly the precise routing as the airline that has ceased operating. So if you hold tickets that go from Newark to Ft. Lauderdale, you couldn't be accommodated on an airline going from Philadelphia to Ft. Lauderdale or from Newark to Miami. So that limits availability. (The precise wording of the Act is a little bit scarier than that -- it could be interpreted to mean that, if your original itinerary had a connection, the airline that you're seeking alternative accommodation on must actually serve the same connection city. I think that interpretation won't fly -- pardon the pun!)

Second, the accommodation is on a space-available basis only, and for standby accommodation only. The airline that you're seeking alternative accommodation on can continue to sell seats for full fare until just before flight-time, and then can begin to start accommodating displaced passengers. That means that anyone who's in the same boat as you, and willing to pay for a new ticket, can preempt your attempt to get a seat on the flight.

Third, the airline that you're seeking alternative accommodation on doesn't "honor" the ticket of the airline that has ceased operating, but rather is offering re-accommodation for a nominal fee. (The government say $25 per segment -- the airlines say $100 per segment. That'll end up being battled out in the courts or the legislature, but probably after-the-fact. The airlines will likely charge $100 per segment.)

[CrabbyHarper]

Pay Attention, please HAL executives! There is an alternative to flying - it's called "homeporting"! I love driving to Norfolk rather than flying to Florida - and I would love to cruise out of Philly or Baltimore...or even NJ or NY. Even Boston or Charleston is doable for me via Amtrak.

I'd be willing to bet that future cruisers would look more favorably on more "homeported" cruises!

Who needs the hassle of flying, arriving after the cruise has departed, losing luggage, security lines. What a way to start and end a vacation!

Of course, if one wants an Alaska cruise and lives on the East Coast, that is a different story.

[bicker]

I cannot find good references for that credit card protection you referred to. That 6 months bit also isn't a good deal for many folks who tend to book their flights earlier than that to ensure a low fare.

[sail7seas]

Crabby Harbor:

HAL and other cruiselines have been doing precisely what you suggest they think about.


HAL has Maasdam cruising out of Norfolk, Maasdam does many cruises out of Boston; the new Noordam will do a number of cruises out of New York to the Caribbean; San Diego; Tampa, Port Canaveral and there has been mention of New Orleans......

They are homeporting in more than FLL and have been doing increasingly since 9-11.

[Giorgi-one]

I cannot find good references for that credit card protection you referred to. That 6 months bit also isn't a good deal for many folks who tend to book their flights earlier than that to ensure a low fare.

I didn't mean that any of this was a good deal. I always book flights early too. It's a mess and, as I indicated, I believe that it will get worse. I have been avoiding US Airways since they went into bankrupcy for the second time, but it really does limit flight choices. If you want to fly to the Caribbean out of Philly, US Airways has all the best nonstop flights. Luckily, I usually just fly to Fort Lauderdale for cruises, and there are other nonstop alternatives.

[jhannah]

There is an alternative to flying - it's called "homeporting"!True ... but on the west coast you're choices are trans-Pacific to Hawaii, Alaska, and the Mexican Riviera. Even driving to Galveston wouldn't be worth it to me. If I want to cruise where I want to cruise, I'm going to have to take to the air.

I agree that things are likely to get worse as time goes on. For now, one possible hedge is to pay top dollar and book air through the cruise line. That way, when things go bump in the night the cruise line bears the burden of getting you accommodated. That brings up another potential I wonder about. Once air travel gets to a certain level of undependability, might the costs of accommodation (and the cruise line's ticket charges) become so far out of line that it isn't worth it? Or, might the cruise lines eventually stop being the middle man and tell us we're all on our own?

[bicker]

I don't think it'll get that far. The industry just needs one or two players to cease operating, and things should get a lot better.

[sail7seas]

I don't think it'll get that far. The industry just needs one or two players to cease operating, and things should get a lot better.

What do you mean? I do not understand "the industry just needs one or two players to cease operating etc"

How does that improve things to have (presumably you mean?) US Air and Delta go bankrupt and disappear?

[bicker]

I'm not really sure which of the airlines will be the second one to go under (if any).

To answer your question, though, when US Airways ceases operations, its gives Delta and Continental (especially) a little breathing room, since a major competitor in the East Coast is gone. To be honest though, I'm not sure how much that'll improve things for them, since what will probably happen is that AirTran will grow, and become a bigger competitor for the East Coast traveler's dollar. The question will be how well will AirTran absorb US Airways business traveler population.

However, once the second legacy carrier goes under, it'll light a fire under the rest to take the draconian measures necessary to survive. (True, some will do so after the first legacy carrier goes under, but surely after the second legacy carrier goes under, everyone, management and labor, will get the message loud-and-clear.)

[kryos]

I'm not really sure which of the airlines will be the second one to go under (if any).

To answer your question, though, when US Airways ceases operations, its gives Delta and Continental (especially) a little breathing room, since a major competitor in the East Coast is gone. To be honest though, I'm not sure how much that'll improve things for them, since what will probably happen is that AirTran will grow, and become a bigger competitor for the East Coast traveler's dollar.
I'm taking AirTran to FLL for my cruise in two weeks. I only wish I had booked AirTran for this flight in April, but their rates were considerably higher. However, considering that I could lose the $178.50 I paid, AirTran would have probably been a much better deal. :(

Guess I'll just have to keep my ears to the ground over the next several months and see what US Air is doing. I may end up eating those tickets and rebooking on another carrier if things get too dicey. I can't afford to go standby in this case ... I really need to get there on the dates I scheduled to fly.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[hdawson]

I still expect United to eventually liquidate. Two years in Chap 11 and still no sign they will survive. Of course it's a foregone conclusion that USAir is history. Not only will costs be more tightly controlled but with fewer players fares can climb to a more reasonable level. Today you can fly cheaper than taking the train. Sometimes air is cheaper than the bus.

[bicker]

And of course, United's demise would help American and to a lesser extent Northwest (and, presumably, Southwest, as well).

[mountainmare]

I am such an IDIOT!

I have to take a trip to LA next April and was surfing the Travelocity website the other night. Believe it or not, I found roundtrip airfare ... direct flights both ways ... from Philly to LAX for $178.50 plus a $5 service charge. That's freakin cheap! Of course, I booked it immediately.

Now I realize ... boy, I'm a dope. The flights are with US Air. They will probably be out of business by next April. :(

Wonder how that sort of thing is handled ... especially if you pay by credit card?

Blue skies ...

--rita
We're on the Jan transcanal on the"O". To complicate things completely I'm flying down two days earlier than DH. Our TA saved us the hassle of Southeast by saying she just didn't trust them and was cautious when it came to flying down to FLL and avoided US Air. BUT at that time TAs were being told that they could safely book US Air at least through March 15, and we took the risk and the cheap fare home from San Diago. Now I'm wondering if they will stop operations while we are on the ship and we'll be scrambling for seats on Jan 23. Oh well...I'll think about that tomorrow!!!
Now I have to pack!!!

[hdawson]

Southwest is probably the most sucessful airline in the US and very reliable.

[Giorgi-one]

Southwest is probably the most sucessful airline in the US and very reliable.

Last month Southwest overbooked a flight to FLL by something like 30 passengers, most on their way to a cruise. My understanding is that they did not make it to the ship.

In response to a previous poster, my understanding is that the cruise lines bear no responsibility when they book air reservations for their passengers. I had an incident where my wife's baggage was lost (only time I booked air thru cruiseline and arrived on embarkation day). When I arrived at the ship and asked for a refund, I was told that they were not responsible but they would try to locate luggage and fly it to one of the ports. It arrived on the third day of the cruise.

[hdawson]

It seems that all airlines overbook. Love those free flights as compensation.
Five free rt in the last two years. Also weather delays/cancellations create an overbooked situation.

[bicker]

I believe when you book your airline arrangements through the cruise line, the cruise line will take responsibility for getting you to the ship. I suspect that the rest of the service provided by the airline, including baggage handling, is the airline's full and exclusive responsibility.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I still expect United to eventually liquidate. Two years in Chap 11 and still no sign they will survive. Of course it's a foregone conclusion that USAir is history. Not only will costs be more tightly controlled but with fewer players fares can climb to a more reasonable level. Today you can fly cheaper than taking the train. Sometimes air is cheaper than the bus.
I honestly do not expect UniTED to go Bye Bye not with their off spring TED. Ted is doing quite well with packed flights. They are trying to copy Southwest Airlines. What will happen is you will just see less United and more TED.

[DoctorFeelgood]

Ustabe you could get a real pillow, a real seat, and a real meal served on real china when you flew... even in coach! Nowadays.... :(

[bicker]

I saw a news article today in a Charlotte paper that quotes an airline industry "expert" as saying that US Airways will most likely not go out of business. Where do they get these so-called "experts" from?

[K&RCurt]

Having lived in the Charlotte area previously, with a bunch of US Airway's pilots in my neighborhood.......The Charlotte Observer's "Airline Industry Sources" are usually U.S.Airways executives giving "The Party Line".

I heard an interesting piece on the radio today which said that at least one of the legacy carriers will likely disapear this year. This will prompt the other(s) to abandon the "spoke and hub" systems and emulate Southwest's flgiht schedules and also scale back to be more "regional" type carriers.

[MandyGirl]

This means ... reducing maintenance
Airlines have certain safety regulations that must be met by the FAA, etc. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has good statistics with safety (available online), and I would be willing to bet that passenger safety is the number one priority of any airline. I personally don't know any pilots who would work for an airline that reduces maintenance - they're not willing to risk their lives. Ask around and see what airline(s) pilots are beating down the door to get a job with.

The Department of Transportation supplies the statistics online for denied boardings (both voluntary and involuntary), on-time arrivals, baggage, and customer complaints. When an airline has a flight leaving every hour (or half hour) in a certain market, it is not uncommon to see the lids placed high. Sometimes the revenue management department (that places those caps) can be off but they try to account for the no-shows that happen on every flight (usually the full-fare tickets), time of week/day, any huge conventions in that market, etc. It's not even uncommon to see an airline do a "Super Bowl schedule" for a few days... they don't write one schedule for the entire year but rather do schedules that change accordingly. Some airlines put out schedules many, many months in advance and then change flight times closer to the travel date as needed, while other airlines only put out schedules 4-5 months in advance with pretty much zero flight time changes (except for unexpected weather delays the day of, unscheduled landings due to passenger medical emergency, terminal blackouts, ATC putting planes in a holding pattern, passenger slamming an overhead bin shut so hard it breaks the latch - causing a mechanical delay, etc). Those things cannot be controlled or foreseen.

I agree with hdawson... I'm usually one to put my name on the volunteer list as soon as I arrive to the airport because I schedule flights with some "buffer time". In the past few years, coming home from St Thomas, the vouchers started at $500 pp (not a bad deal!), received a bump to first-class coming home from Seattle, and a trip to Vegas going on a flight two hours later compensated me $200 pp and a first-class upgrade. These were flights on AA and CO. I have never been bumped involuntarily from a flight by arriving early - especially if arriving by the TSA posted time guidelines. On any holiday weekend I arrive even earlier than what TSA suggests since airports are very crowded then.
Our trip overseas this summer - the airline closed the check-in counter one HOUR prior to trip time, requiring all passengers to be onboard thirty minutes prior to pushback. Most domestic airlines here don't even close the flight at the gate until ten minutes prior to scheduled time. I've definitely seen passengers rushing to the gate on domestic flights.

There is a good forum here on CruiseCritic called "Cruise Air" that this thread addressess many similar issues. Lots of good reading. :)

[kruzkeen]

I believe when you book your airline arrangements through the cruise line, the cruise line will take responsibility for getting you to the ship. I suspect that the rest of the service provided by the airline, including baggage handling, is the airline's full and exclusive responsibility.
This is quite true. I have been provided with a hotel room, meal vouchers and flown to the next port when I once booked air with the cruise line and the flight was 4 hours late. People on the same flight who had arranged their own air tickets were on their own and were outraged.

It is the airlines who fly your lost luggage to the next port as it is their responsibility to deliver it to your home if lost on your return trip.

If you want refunds or compensation you should buy insurance.

[mountainmare]

Southwest is probably the most sucessful airline in the US and very reliable.
I really did mean SouthEAST Air. A small airline that flew out of strange places like Allentown Pa. This year around Thanksgiving, without warning, they simply stopped flying saying that the price of fuel was too high, thus stranding many unhappy people in Allentown, where there are not alot of options. On Jan 7 I'm flying Airtran out of Philly, two days before the cruise and in an airport that may offer options. Other family members love Spirit out of AC (you have to park in a muddy field, but its free!!!). I LOVE to drive and its kind of fun to bop down to Fla, but this time my ship will let me off in San diago. Flying is really not the fun it used to be.

[ekerr19]

True ... but on the west coast you're choices are trans-Pacific to Hawaii, Alaska, and the Mexican Riviera. Even driving to Galveston wouldn't be worth it to me. If I want to cruise where I want to cruise, I'm going to have to take to the air.


Jim -

We are in the same boat, so to speak. We must fly everywhere and because of the weather here in the winter, we always plan to arrive well ahead of the ship's departure. HAL's air has never been a good dela for us - and we always book our own.

[ekerr19]

On another note - I have been impressed with my recent flights on Frontier, though for a long time I would avoid using them because I thought they were too much of a "no frills" airline. Their coach seats beat Delta and United hands down! I also love the TV screen with satellite options.

Because Denver is their hub, we can get great fares from here, they are one of the few with non-stop service to FLL - a huge plus for us.

[dakrewser]

On another note - I have been impressed with my recent flights on Frontier, though for a long time I would avoid using them because I thought they were too much of a "no frills" airline. Their coach seats beat Delta and United hands down! I also love the TV screen with satellite options.
I was also impressed with Frontier, especially compared to United (I flew both, within a couple of days of each other R/T between Denver and San Francisco). My son and granddaughter also liked them better than Southwest in flying from DC to California.

Still, I've got too much "invested" in American to think about switching right now (except for international flights).

-dave

[HeatherInFlorida]

I am such an IDIOT!

I have to take a trip to LA next April and was surfing the Travelocity website the other night. Believe it or not, I found roundtrip airfare ... direct flights both ways ... from Philly to LAX for $178.50 plus a $5 service charge. That's freakin cheap! Of course, I booked it immediately.

Now I realize ... boy, I'm a dope. The flights are with US Air. They will probably be out of business by next April. :(

Wonder how that sort of thing is handled ... especially if you pay by credit card?

Blue skies ...

--rita
rita, is it too late to cancel? Because Southwest is taking reservations through 6/6 and they fly out of Philly. Their internet fares are very reasonable and you can rest assured they're going to be around for a very long time. Despite what might be said here, I believe SouthWest to be an extremely reliable and excellent airline. Their fares from Philly to LA range from $160 R/T internet) on up, with a promotional fare of $200.

You'll never see SouthWest on Travelocity or any of those ... you have to check it yourself. It's the only airline I fly whenever possible.

[CrabbyHarper]

Thanks for your response to me about homeporting. I have sailed Maasdam out of Norfolk twice and will sail her again in April. One of the most attractive things about the cruise - to me anyway! - is that she is homeported in Norfolk. I also sailed Celebrity's Galaxy out of Baltimore- a much more convenient port, and American Cruise Lines American Eagle (what a disaster!) from Charleston to Baltimore.

I am concerned that HAL is not going out of Baltimore anymore, and Celebrity's Galaxy has moved to Galveston. RCI and NCL have ships out of Baltimore, but I prefer HAL and Celebrity - so the concern is that if there are no "Good ships" out of Baltimore, Philly or Norfolk I will probably give up cruising for a cottage and boat on the Chesapeake! Three cruises on the Maasdam will be enough.

I know that you are in the travel business, so any advice you can give me on good cruises that I can drive to would be appreciated. We are in the fortunate position of having a little bit of discretionary income as we near retirement, and we love to cruise, but hate to fly!

[bicker]

I use SideStep to check prices on all airlines. It consults many different airline booking sites, including those that aren't included on the big travel web sites.

[sail7seas]

[Quote]

I know that you are in the travel business, so any advice you can give me on good cruises that I can drive to would be appreciated. We are in the fortunate position of having a little bit of discretionary income as we near retirement, and we love to cruise, but hate to fly!




CrappyHarbor....

I most definitely AM NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN ( MOST LIKELY NEVER WILL BE) in the Travel Business. The only business I do related to travel is booking, paying for (well...actually DH does that part :) ) and enjoying our travel.


Three cruises on Maasdam is Enough!!!!! NOOOOO.....Never!!!! Three would hardly be enough. We have been on Maasdam many, many times and are eagerly looking forward to b-to-b's this June SAILING OUT OF BOSTON .....our homeport!!!

I could not agree with you more that I love when it is possible to board a ship within a short distance of your home. I would love if there were a (beautiful, desireable) ship sailing 12 months a year out of Boston to the Caribbean for three seasons and Canada/New England for summer.

[bicker]

I'd be there with you sail7seas.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Pssssst .... Sail ... you know how I hate to correct you, but it's CrabbyHarper, not CrabbyHarbor! I keep seeing you write that and I have to giggle. Your mind is on the harbor, I think;)

[ekerr19]

Pssssst .... Sail ... you know how I hate to correct you, but it's CrabbyHarper, not CrabbyHarbor! I keep seeing you write that and I have to giggle. Your mind is on the harbor, I think;)
Heather:

LOL, I got a real giggle out of this too... :) Meaning no disrespect to Sail.

I actually know CrabbyHarper from our Maasdam cruise, she is far from "crabby" - but she does play the Harp!

Hi Gerry (aka the CrabbyHarper)!

[CrabbyHarper]

Hello to Laura and my other friends from the harp-playing crab! Sorry, Sail Seven Seas - your messages are usually so helpful and informative that I just assumed (I should never DO that!) that you were a travel professional, rather than just a travel addict like some of the rest of us.

Yes, I love the Maasdam but want to look at bit at other options. Oh well, April, and my third cruise on Maasdam is coming and then I can decide on the next cruise.

Thanks to all for your input and a very Happy New Year!

[sail7seas]

crabby.......... :o sooooo sorry. I 'misnamed' you before, I think. Each time I see your name, for some reason the left side of my brain (or is the right side?) ....well, okay.....my brainless side keeps getting it wrong.


Thanks for pointing it out to me....I would have continued to do that, I am sure, until someone told me to 'pay closer attention'. :)

[saltydog28]

I, like kryos, live in Phila. The only domestic airline I have taken has been USAir. And I am also afraid to use them in the future. The baggage situation in Phila. is a disgrace.
Can anyone suggest a dependable airline? One that is the way USAir use to be?
Thanks,
Pat.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Pat, Southwest is now in Philly and I love this airline. I fly them at least 3 times a year. They have a fabulous Rapid Rewards program where you actually get a free ticket without flying millions of miles, their fares are amazing, you can fly one way for no added cost, they are usually early if not ontime and they're just plain nice!!!

Book them on the internet to get the best fares. You have to go directly to their website ... they're not on all the big websites that do air. Also, you can book your trip and cancel it without penalty. You have a year to use the credit.

Can you tell I really like this airline? If it flies there, I'm on it.

[bicker]

Unfortunately, no airline today is like any airline used to be. Deregulation started a chain of events and changes that have irrevocably change the nature of domestic air travel. There are new, low-cost airlines that have popped-up, promising better amenities and service, but do so on the foundation that they have yet to age to the point where they being to incur the costs associated with seniority and aging assets. Southwest was the first, and many folks now find that their fares are as high as the legacy airlines, though they still benefit from cost-savings associated with the service-related short-cuts and compromises they impose on their operations.

You best bet is to keep apprised of the current state of the airlines you are considering for your trip (or ask -- there are always places like this where people who do keep track of the industry are willing to share their information and rumors they've heard). Then, armed with that information, choose the best airline for the specific trip you're planning.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Had to laugh - US Airways in Philadelphia sent hundreds of pieces of luggage here to Pittsburgh to get straightened out. They interviewed one man who has spent 4 days here trying to find 1 piece of luggage - he had the other 3 before he flew onto California. And we already had tons of luggage problems without Philadelphia sending us more.

[SharonN]

Well Delta and Comair aren't any better but there about the only choice we have in this area. We're still trying to get one of our suitcases from last weeks trip. We flew to LA on Fri and one bag never made it. Compared to the other problems they had over the weekend with canceled flights we were lucky to make it at all. We flew home to Cincy on Monday and could barely walk thru Baggage Claim there were so many bags there (except ours of course!). They finally updated the status of our bag today to say it has arrived in LA (6 days late). We'll have to see if we get it back here in time to pack for our cruise in 3 weeks!

[hdawson]

I don't know where Springboro is but AirTran offers service from Dayton and Akron/Canton. They allow three checked bags ea weighing up to 70 pounds, in case you tend to overpack. FAA just named them best of all reporting airlines in baggage handling. Very young fleet. No planes over 5 yrs old.

[CDRMark]

This isn't a new problem. Anyone remember People Express (Do you want fries with that?), or Alleghany (We'll get you there late, or lose your luggage!)? It will get worse, get better and then transporter technology will be perfected. I am still amazed how inexpensive it is to get nearly anywhere. We are trading "service" (see other thread) for cheap.
Cheers
MarkB

[Spender Nui]

This isn't a new problem. Anyone remember People Express (Do you want fries with that?), or Alleghany (We'll get you there late, or lose your luggage!)? It will get worse, get better and then transporter technology will be perfected. I am still amazed how inexpensive it is to get nearly anywhere. We are trading "service" (see other thread) for cheap.
Cheers
MarkB


Don't forget, Allegheny grew up to be US Air. Always used them as little as possible ... before and after they grew up.

[peaches from georgia]

And AirTran is ValuJet after the crash. Or was it crashes?

[kryos]

Ustabe you could get a real pillow, a real seat, and a real meal served on real china when you flew... even in coach! Nowadays.... :(
I just had a big argument with a co-worker tonight. He seems to think that the airlines' trouble all comes from greedy consumers who want super low fares that are in many cases far below the cost of the product being provided.

My feeling is this ... you bet your sweet a** I expect a low fare. What the hell is the airline providing me other than a trip from point A to point B? It is certainly no longer a comfortable trip in the slightest. Frankly, I think if you are looking for comfort, you might do better on the Greyhound.

The seats are wedged together so that you can't move without elbowing the person next to you. The legroom is so tight that God forbid if you are sitting in the window seat and have to use the facilities. Now everyone has to move all their stuff and get up to let you pass through. No way can you possibly squeeze past someone who is seated.

Then, if the beverage cart is further back towards the rear of the plane, you'd better not be in any urgent need to use those facilities ... because you're gonna have to slowly make your way back ... as the cabin stewards serve all those passengers between you and the restrooms. There is certainly no way you can squeeze past that cart. It takes the entire narrow aisle.

Then eating? Forget it. I can well understand why coach passengers (even those on cross-country flights) are no longer provided with a free meal. How you going to eat it? Heaven forbid if you are right-handed and the person sitting next to you is left-handed. You'd better coordinate taking mouthfuls or else you'll each be wearing the others' lunch. No, I can understand the airlines not wanting to serve food. They could have fistfights breaking out all over the cabin as people get their food knocked into their lap by the passenger next to them.

Even simple services ... like asking for a blanket or a pillow. You'd better "scarf" one as you make your way back to your seat during boarding ... because if you get there and don't have one, chances are there won't be any spares for the cabin stewards to give you. I asked my cabin steward for a blanket on my last flight ... because there wasn't one at my seat. She told me they were all taken, but there should have been one in my seat. I guess some other passengers must have decided they needed two, so I could go scratch.

And then delays ... at one time they were reasonably rare. Now they are the norm rather than the exception. When I was coming home from Florida on my last trip, we were delayed at the terminal for over an hour as the customer service people reassigned everyone's seats. Seemed that there weren't as many passengers traveling on that flight than they had originally counted on. So, they decided to substitute a smaller plane. Of course, many people were assigned seats that simply didn't exist on the smaller plane, so everyone had to be shuffled around. Interestingly, this created lots of hollering because there were groups of people who now could not sit together. There were even a couple of cases where children were not seated next to their parents, and the airline personnel were scratching their heads to figure out how to rectify that situation. In some cases, they broke up couples ... seating them several rows apart ... in order to keep parent and child together.

Air travel may be cheaper today than any other form, but it has also become one of the most uncomfortable ways to get from point A to point B. Believe me, if I had the time ... if I were retired and not constrained by the number of vacation days I could take each year ... I'd sooner take the bus than a commercial airliner.

Just my humble opinion ...

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bicker]

you bet your sweet a** I expect a low fareAnd I think most, but not all, customers feel the same way. The question is whether they'd make the same decision if forced to acknowledge the realities of the business that customers are typically immune from, and how those realities impact the service that can be provided to them. I'm not say that they should have to acknowledge them, but the realities still exist, nonetheless, and dictate the manner in which companies are able to offer the service.

It should be noted that airline travel is just about as comfortable as it has been for the last twenty years. There have been myriad improvements in technology that have improved comfort, and no reduction in space -- as a matter of fact, many airlines, American and JetBlue among them, have actually provided more space for passengers, on average, than has been provided traditionally over the last twenty years. So without resorting to comparisons to the regulated airline transportation era, when airfare were substantially higher than they are today, comfort has only improved.

So what has changed in twenty years? The only variables that I can imagine having changed are the passengers, and the available pool of workers willing to do the jobs necessary to run the airline.

[sail7seas]

To my mind, what has changed is the respect, the courtesy, the appreciation for the customers' business.


If there is a First Class section for whatever flights we are booking, we always fly first class. I cannot remember the last time a flight attendant said good morning, hello, welcome aboard to us. That is a 'non-money' item. Courtesy. There is no longer anything first class about first class............why we choice to book and pay for it is our business but few would dispute that any domestic offers anything that truly could be called first class.

A coach passenger deserves a greeting. He/she should have someone say hello when he boards. He should be treated politely by all airline employees he encounters. He should not be snapped at, distained, or mistreated......but we all are!!!

[HeatherInFlorida]

I absolutely swear I'm telling the truth when I say that every time I fly I am amazed at how nice everyone is. True, I only fly Southwest (if they go where I'm going), but everytime I get on the plane they greet me with a very cheery "Good Morning" and "how are you today" with a big smile. If I beep going through Security or my luggage looks funny to them, the TSA agents have been fantastic at being very careful with my things and very respectful to me. They can see how carefully I packed and I can't believe how nice they are to try to keep everything neat.

So I know this isn't everyone's experience. I only fly 3-5 times a year. But I honestly have not one complaint by how I am treated by everyone I see in an airport.

[hdawson]

My experience is exactly the same as Heather's. The crews on AirTran have always been very friendly, two or three gathered at the door to greet us or say goodbye and please come back.

[hdawson]

Peaches you have a good memory. I'm sure you are aware that the NTSB cleared ValueJet from responsibility in that terrible accident. The fault of course as they determined was with Sabre that mislabled oxygen canisters for cargo as being inert, which of course was illegal. Surely you remember that. There have been no other AirTran crashes. AirTran and JetBlue have the newest fleets of any domestic airline and both are profitable. Also they both are taking delivery of 100+ new airplanes over the next 3 yrs.

[sail7seas]

I absolutely swear I'm telling the truth when I say that every time I fly I am amazed at how nice everyone is. True, I only fly Southwest (if they go where I'm going), but everytime I get on the plane they greet me with a very cheery "Good Morning" and "how are you today" with a big smile. If I beep going through Security or my luggage looks funny to them, the TSA agents have been fantastic at being very careful with my things and very respectful to me. They can see how carefully I packed and I can't believe how nice they are to try to keep everything neat.

So I know this isn't everyone's experience. I only fly 3-5 times a year. But I honestly have not one complaint by how I am treated by everyone I see in an airport.


We are flying Jet Blue for the first time. We only had two reasonable choices for flights to Tampa and we selected them.

I will be interested to see if they treat pax any better than the other airline we have been flying the most in recent years. It would be quite hard for them to be worse IMO

(There have been a few (very few) times recently when the flight crews made an effort to be pleasant but some (most) of them have been less than pleasant IMO)

[bicker]

And someone just recently relayed their experience on US Airways, with a very polite and friendly flight attendant, despite the fact that the flight attendant is only getting 1/4 pay. I think courtesy and respect is still being provided, but the means to provide them is being overly-stressed by other considerations.

[AirGorilla]

Sorry some of y'all are badly treated by airline flight crews. I fly Delta out of ATL multiple times per month. I sometimes fly in "the front" -- not because I pay for it, but because I receive complimentary Frequent Flyer upgrades, from time-to-time.

Honestly, I nearly always receive a smile and a hello when boarding the aircraft. In case you're wondering, this occurs when I am a coach or first class passenger.

Sometimes politeness/friendliness is a two-way street.

This reflects my personal experience, and may not reflect the experiences of those who fly various other airlines out of various other airports.

[bicker]

Yes, definitely. I've even noticed that I can radically affect the demeanor of a gate agent or ticket agent by varying my own demeanor. I remember a case where the passenger in front of me was giving the gate agent a very hard time, and the gate agent was getting progressively more curt and finally surly. When it was my turn I commiserated, and her whole attitude changed to a much more positive and helpful one.

[MandyGirl]

The crews on AirTran have always been very friendly Thanks for sharing that! They fly to Vegas and recently had very good deals but we have yet to travel with them.

They have a fabulous Rapid Rewards program I have a friend who flies Southwest home to Houston (from Dallas) several times a year since she is single and doesn't want to make the 5 hour drive by herself. She buys the $39 each way tickets, books online, and seems to always have a Rapid Rewards ticket ready! Especially when it was double credit and she could earn a free flight after four roundtrips. (cheap!!) One thing Southwest does is allots ALL 137 seats for frequent flyer seats - with no cap. So if there is a seat to sell and you have a RR ticket, then you can book that flight or even change it at the last minute if you need to! I have over 100,000 miles on American I'm still trying to use, as they only allot a very few seats on each flight for miles rewards, and to grab those seats we need to book many, many months in advance or take out-of-the way flights (like Dallas-Chicago-Honolulu when we have nonstops from Dallas-Honolulu). Even when there are seats to sell on AA, it doesn't necessarily mean you can use your miles on that flight. But one thing I have enjoyed with my ff miles on AA was being able to go to the Caribbean and do a stopover in SJU - all as part of the one trip. They only do that at certain airports, so that allowed us to work in a southern Caribbean cruise out of San Juan and then hop over to another island for an extended vacation after the cruise before returning home.

We are flying Jet Blue for the first time. The CEO of Jet Blue, David Neeleman, is a former employee of Southwest Airlines. (source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/16/60II/main525810.shtml)) I have heard good things about Jet Blue, but they do not fly anywhere in Texas.

A coach passenger deserves a greeting. He/she should have someone say hello when he boards. He should be treated politely by all airline employees he encounters. He should not be snapped at, distained, or mistreated......but we all are!!!That's too bad all are snapped at, etc. Out of hundreds of flights, I've been fortunate to never be treated badly on any flight, yet have only purchased coach tickets. I was AAdvantage Gold on American when working in the corporate world and have also flown Continental, America West, Southwest, Delta, Virgin Atlantic, and British Midland Express within the past ten years. All very good experiences - I'm usually getting on with a smile and also getting off with a smile and a "thank you" for the crew for providing a safe flight. :) My only yucky airport experiences have been with NON airline employees... TSA... but at least those have been very few and far between... and I'm thankful the breast exams have been done away with.:)

[whm]

This is very interesting to read! I cannot believe some of the comments that people spew forth re airline service and costs. Which of you people ever were involved in a business where the capital investment was $100 million on up and then the users didn't want to pay for the service. You demand safety but then you don't care to pay for it. Do you really think that all of the maintenance comes cheap. And all of the maintenance is mandated by the FAA! Which mechanic or pilot do you think cuts corners knowing what the results of that action might be? Do you really think that airport gates are inexpensive to aquire? Airlines are a private corporation with stockholders to account to and making a profit is the primary goal. However, NO other business is as regulated or has employees that are as regulated and tested. NONE of you would put up with the intrusions that flight crews have to deal with! You, as the travelling public, wanted deregulation so that you could have cheap seats and you got it. I can well remember when people took some pride in their appearance when they travelled - not since deregulation! Now it's the Greyhound people and their attitudes toward the agents and flight crews. Look around and see the rudeness that so many people spew forth. If you want to be treated with courtesy on the aircraft then treat the crew with respect. And please, look in the mirror before you leave for the airport.

[dakrewser]

NO other business is as regulated or has employees that are as regulated and tested... You, as the travelling public, wanted deregulation so that you could have cheap seats and you got it.
You don't see the problem reconciling these two statements? FWIW, almost everyone thinks that their industry is the "most regulated" - speak to someone in healthcare, for example, or banking...

[sail7seas]

Some (most) of your points have validity IMO


But, come on now......




[Quote]
with! You, as the travelling public, wanted deregulation so that you could have cheap seats and you got it. I can well remember when people took some pride in their appearance when they travelled - not since deregulation! Now it's the Greyhound people and their attitudes toward the agents and flight crews. Look around and see the rudeness that so many people spew forth. If you want to be treated with courtesy on the aircraft then treat the crew with respect. And please, look in the mirror before you leave for the airport.
__________________


......You can remember when people took some pride in their appearance when they traveled. So do I. That was when the seat was large enough to accomodate an average size person and there was adequate space for a person more than 5' tall to put both of their knees together and sit in a seat the way a normal person would sit. When the airlines started squeezing people in like the cattle they think us to be, when the delays started to become frequent and sitting around airports for hours on end became usual, when we had to start running like track stars through hubs to get to the furthest gate in the 'dam' airport.....yes, the ladies took off their high heels!!!
It's called common sense and it's called dressing appropriate to what we know we are in for.

I am an average sized person and those first class seats are now about the size a coach seat used to be.....only slightly larger. They certainly are wider than the back of the plane but that is about all we get for our first class dollar.

I cannot tell you the times I have boarded a plane in recent years, passed through the doorway and have seen flight attendants standing there. I say good morning and get no response whatsoever.

If they hate their jobs so much .......

[bicker]

The width of seats hasn't changed much in well over 20 years. The width of the 717 is the same as the DC-8 and the MD-80/90, all of which had 5-across seating, so the same amount of lateral space has been provided in that class of aircraft since the DC-8 was introduced more than thirty years ago. The 737 series is even older: For almost forty years, 737s have been the work-horse of US domestic air traffic, and they're still basically the same width, 11 feet 7 inches, and they still have six-across seating as they always have.

[whm]

Do the health care or banking employees have to take a physical every 6 months and at that time do they have to declare every visit to the doctor that they have made. If these aren't declared they risk losing their license. I think not.
As to delays, you would be amazed at how few delays are airline caused. most are ATC (US Govt) or weather caused.
Please, don't blame the airlines for your problems. They're in business to make money just like every other corporation. Sometimes "Murphy" rears his ugly head!

[HeatherInFlorida]

Sail, unless you just happen to have extremely bad luck, you will love Jet Blue. I only had the pleasure of flying it once from here to JFK and it was amazing ... very similar in feel to Southwest. And they have real TV in front of every seat which I think is fabulous!

I think it's interesting to see a few people popping up here saying the same as I did about how we're treated. First, people rarely write about good treatment and generally you'll see only the complaints.

I will admit that I happen to have a very upbeat, happy way about me...not tooting my horn; it's just the way I naturally am because it makes my life nicer. So that is part of it. As someone else said here, usually I'm greeted not only by a stewardess, but by a pilot! And they couldn't be nicer. The Southwest pilots are also wonderful about letting us know what's going on during the flight.

After one particularly special flight with a most outstanding stewardess, I wrote Southwest Air to compliment them. I not only got a letter back from Southwest, but also a personal handwritten note from Rosemary, the stewardess.

I know my next flight could be a disaster and I'll come back screaming, but so far I've had nothing but the best treatment. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[dakrewser]

The width of seats hasn't changed much in well over 20 years.
Many of us remember fondly flying on DC-3s....

:) -dave

[bicker]

Hehe... the only time I've been in a DC-3, it didn't have any seats, really. Just benches.

[hdawson]

Oh yes. My first flight was on a DC3 converted from a C47 wwII surplus that was the beginning of Piedmont and later USAir. Then 40 more flights on a C47 in Vietnam. They really were great planes.

[AirGorilla]

The width of seats hasn't changed much in well over 20 years. The width of the 717 is the same as the DC-8 and the MD-80/90, all of which had 5-across seating, so the same amount of lateral space has been provided in that class of aircraft since the DC-8 was introduced more than thirty years ago. The 737 series is even older: For almost forty years, 737s have been the work-horse of US domestic air traffic, and they're still basically the same width, 11 feet 7 inches, and they still have six-across seating as they always have.

Bicker --

You obviously know your stuff about air travel and equipment, especially regarding seat width. It may be my imagination, but I think the pitch (distance between my seat and the one in front of me) might be skinnier than it used to be!!

One of my favorite aircraft for flying first class was the 727, which, unfortunately, DL has retired. Those seats were HUGE. The 757 now has a similar roominess, but the 767 front seats feel a little tighter. The 777 is a fine plane to fly in the front. MD-88's feel snug, compared to the Boeings.

I am still a firm believer that that a cheerful, friendly passenger will receive good service, while the passenger with the "mule lip" will be treated accordingly!

[bicker]

Unlike width, pitch has definitely varied over the last twenty years, decreasing for the first half of that time, and then increasing, in the average, over the past several years.

If you're interested, Seat Guru (http://www.seatguru.com/) offers reviews of just about every seat in the industry.

[whm]

You're right about the 727. The first class seats in that airplane were the largest and most comfortable of any airplane!

[obriendan]

I have to echo Heather’s high praise for Southwest. We have always had a pleasant experience with them. They have always been on time. Amazingly, we have frequently found that they manage to get the luggage to the carousel before we arrive!

The senior fare of $129 or less to anywhere they fly is a bargain. It is true, like other airlines, that Southwest over books. On a recent trip from Houston Hobby to Long Island Islip, we had some extra time so we voluntarily were bumped and were compensated a total of $548 in future flight credits

[bicker]

Remarkably, the interior cabin width for 727s were actually a little narrower than that for 737s. By the same token, the average width of the average American has increase. On the average. :D

[Krazy Kruizers]

Well as many of you know from reading some of my posts, we will no longer we flying US Airways - don't trust them - reading too much local information about a couple of their unions - and don't want to be stranded if they do go out of business.


We really liked being able to go non-stop from here-to-there - but that is a thing of the past here in Pittsburgh.

We don't look forward to "connections" - it seems to be what we will be doing in the future.

[Krazy Kruizers]

In our "early" years of flying we had to coach and always had polite stewardresses.

For the last 20+ years we have been able to fly first class (even did the Concord) and we have always been politely greeted as we got on the aircraft and as well getting off - and we have flown quite a few different air lines.

We had to laugh on our flight down to Ft Lauderdale in May - first class no longer served breakfast (had it in Feb) - and all our stewardress kept saying as she served various snacks "Take more - that's all we have" (US Airways). And everyone did!

We have even had the flight crew say good-bye to us using our last names! (US Airways - American - Delta)!

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

A few random thoughts, facts & opinions:

ValuJet: The 1998 NTSB report divided responsibility for the crash between SabreTech, the FAA and ValuJet (which was blamed for failing to properly supervise its maintenance contractors, and for failing to ensure that its staff and contractors got sufficient haz-mat training).

Seat space: The spacious (though noisy) 727 was the workhorse of American carriers for decades, much more so than the cramped 737 (which is the only plane Southwest flies).
Also, just 15 or 20 years ago it was reasonably common to fly widebodies on domestic routes ... spacious, twin-aisle 747s, L-10s and DC-10s on routes like Atlanta to New York, Chicago to Las Vegas, etc. Those were INFINITELY more comfortable (and handled turbulence a whole lot better, too). Today, most of those planes are scrapped, and even 757s and 767s are being driven out of domestic routes by wretchedly claustrophobic CRJs and MD-88s.

Fares: You can pay as little as $220 for a round-trip, transcontinental fare . That's less than the cost 20 years ago, and it's simply insanity.
But this IS a consumer-driven market, and consumers' consistent message to airlines is that people will always choose on price, not on service. Oh well. One downside of capitalism is that often the bad money drives out the good. (Personally, I fly Southwest only when there's no other option - I'd far prefer to fly the old, stylish lines such as Pan Am, TWA or Eastern, but of course they're all long dead. And they were far from stylish in their final years.).

That pattern is one I'd truly hate to see spread to cruising. There's nothing wrong with bargain-hunting (we do it all the time), but you've got to match your expectations to reality. When TOO MANY passengers hold out for Carnival prices but demand Radisson service, the middle-market cruise business will be in trouble.
You can pay bottom dollar, or you can expect five-star service ... but way too often, our message boards get loaded up with complaints from people who demand it both ways.
"So on our cruise last week, we bought one soda card for little Timmy & then shared it between all eight of us! Plus, on the last night, we filled a couple of carryons with snacks from the Lido buffet in case anyone got hungry on the flight home. But we just hated how the greedy cruise ship company went ane cut back on midnight buffets ... how dare they be so CHEAP?"
We can't consistently buy super-discount inside cabins on a mid-tier cruise line AND gripe when they cut back on the cavier in the dining room. ;)

[Giorgi-one]

I am not going to specifically mention anyone but I just wanted to point out that most airlines lose money. I believe that even Airtran will actually lose money this year. So how can anyone complain that they should get more for the unbelievably low fares they are paying. That was exactly the point of starting this thread. You want low fares. You got them. But don't expect things to be the way they were before airlines were deregulated. Yes, I know that Southwest makes money, but many airline analysts see this as a temporary thing until they grow larger and start to experience the same problems as the larger airlines.

Surprising that no one has even mentioned the security issue which most experts feel is little better than it was before 9/11. What does this have to do with low fares? Everything. The airlines can't afford to a first class system and the government has determined that US travelers are not willing to pay for a first class airline security system with all the latest technology to detect explosives, screen all freight packages, issue national ID cards, etc. One more terrorist attack on an airplane and all this will be moot becasue no one will fly for at least 10 years.

Did you ever spend 24 hours on a Greyhound bus from NY to Florida? If you did, you wouldn't have made that statement.

[hdawson]

Giorgi. It still looks like AirTran will complete their THIRD consecutive profitable year of operation. We'll soon see the final numbers for 04. Yes their numbers have been impacted by having to cancel 800 flights because of tropical weather in Florida in August and September. A most unusual season and I suspect too heavily dependent on Florida travel.
Southwest making money is a temporary thing? After 20 years, what is temporary? ? ? ? Hardly a flash in the pan since they carry more domestic passengers than anyother airline. At least thats what I think I read in the Financial Times. And after the baggage debacle in Philly last weekend it was good to read that FAA reported that AirTran had the best baggage handling record of all airlines reporting for the first ten months of the year. Further they completed 98% of all scheduled flights for the 5 day holiday period and even 100% of Christmas eve flights. Further, JetBlue and AirTran fly the youngest most fuel efficient airplanes available with many more on order for expansion. It's interesting that the legacy lines see their hope of survival by copying those sucessful low cost carriers that have taken so much of the business.

[Giorgi-one]

I am not an airline expert. I was just summarizing what I have read recently. I have seen comments that once all airlines start using the same business model, the advantages will be lost. I have also seen complaints that Southwest prices are not that much lower than the legacy airlines. As far as baggage handling, of course it's a lot easier to handle baggage when you have one flight landing every hour as opposed to US Airways which has one every minute.

[hdawson]

Giorgi. Actually AirTran operates over 500 flights daily to over 40 destinations. And the employees come to work. Only by my personal observation, the employees seem to be reasonably happy with their jobs.
If, and I repeat, if USAir and United were to survive, how many of their former customers will come back to them? Air transport today is very simple.
Get me from point A to point B safely and on time and at a fair price. Meal service on the average 2 to 4 hour trip isn't important. Don't reduce my checked baggage allowance to 50 lbs ea for two bags. AirTran allows THREE bags ea up to 70 lbs. 100% FRESH air cabin ventilation. Don't penalize me for flying one way only. Don't make me stay over a Sat night unless that's what I want to do. And a fleet with no plane over 5 yrs old. Happy New Year.

[Philip217]

Georgi-one,

You made some excellent points.
We might want to take notice that the mass-market cruise lines are travelling down a remarkably similar road right now - but a few years behind the airlines.

[kryos]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium][color=navy]rita, is it too late to cancel? Because Southwest is taking reservations through 6/6 and they fly out of Philly.
Unfortunately, they're non-refundable tickets. So, I'm gonna hope for the best. Luckily I put them on my American Express, so if they fold I can dispute the charge. If service wasn't provided, the charge can always be reversed.

Who knows? Maybe the government will bail them out if they get in too deep.

But I'll definitely look into Southwest for the future. They seem to be one of the healthiest airlines around. AirTrans is pretty decent too ... and that's the carrier I booked for my upcoming cruise next week.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bicker]

I definitely see Southwest traveling down a path to higher fares -- actually, I feel they have already gotten there -- but I don't see them traveling down a path to bankruptcy. They operate in only 60 markets, which includes, AFIAK, only one city outside the 100 largest markets in the country. While their costs have surely gone up due to seniority and maintenance costs, and is clearly reflected in their fares, their business model, at least, seems to have kept that in perspective, and they've resisted the temptation to grow too fast, grow too big, but most importantly, grow too wide. Furthermore, they seem intent on providing service with a smile, but with very clear boundaries, aimed directly at keeping costs in control.

[SharonN]

I don't know where Springboro is but AirTran offers service from Dayton and Akron/Canton. They allow three checked bags ea weighing up to 70 pounds, in case you tend to overpack. FAA just named them best of all reporting airlines in baggage handling. Very young fleet. No planes over 5 yrs old.

We're actually between Cincy and Dayton so can fly from either but usually choose Cincy because of the direct flights available. In the past we’ve had pretty good service from both Delta and Comair (the only 2 airlines that really fly out of Cincy) even though their prices are significantly higher because they treat it as only a hub. And I’ve never had luggage lost or delayed on a direct flight before (have had it happen many times on connections though) but guess there’s a first for everything. However, after last week I’m not sure I want to fly either of them again. They obviously had no control over the weather but they sure didn’t handle it very well. I’d sure hate to be the programmer on call for the Comair System last weekend! And Delta was totally unorganized when we finally got to the airport that Friday (the 23rd). Won’t bore you with all the details but it was one thing after another making it a very unpleasant travel day. At this point it’s been 8+ days and we still don’t have our bag and still can’t get anything but a busy from the phone# they give you. The web site was finally updated on Thu to show the bag had arrived at LAX (of course we had come home on Monday) but no indication of when (or if) it will get back here. I plan to pack the weekend of the 15th so hopefully we see it before then!

We did purchase our air thru HAL and from Dayton for our Jan cruise and are going down a day early. They’ve booked us on a direct flight from Dayton to Ft. Lauderdale (never seen direct flights from there before) on Chautauqua which I’ve never heard of so we’ll see how that works out. Will definitely check out AirTran in the future though.

[gizmo]

Sharon,

Did you check the web site? http://www.flychautauqua.com/

It is a regional airline owned by Republic. I looked at the planes. All very small, the largest holding 50 pax.

[Giorgi-one]

Bicker:

You made one point which we all missed. Who is going to serve all the small cities that US Ariways and other legeacy airlines now serve? As you indicated, Southwest stays profitable by concentrating on the largest markets. Most of these smaller cities will probably wind up with one flight per day in and out.

[Giorgi-one]

Chautauqua has those brand new prop planes with the giant rubber bands.

[bicker]

It actually is pretty expensive to operate service with only one flight per day in-and-out (you still have to lease space, have staffing, etc.). More likely, many of those smaller cities simply will not be served at all.

[hdawson]

bicker. I agree, all the airlines will have to get their fares up to a profitable price.

Sharon. Don;t know what to say. I'm only 5'9" and on Embraer aircraft I feel like Gulliver. Talk about cramped!

Giorgi. Rubber bands? You may be right. As for small cities they will have more and more reason to relinqish the idea of having small city airports and create more combined regional airports.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Unfortunately, they're non-refundable tickets. So, I'm gonna hope for the best. Luckily I put them on my American Express, so if they fold I can dispute the charge. If service wasn't provided, the charge can always be reversed.

Who knows? Maybe the government will bail them out if they get in too deep.

But I'll definitely look into Southwest for the future. They seem to be one of the healthiest airlines around. AirTrans is pretty decent too ... and that's the carrier I booked for my upcoming cruise next week.

Blue skies ...

--rita
Is Air Trans ATA or are they different airlines? Because SouthWest bought ATA which should be a good thing:) . Maybe they're different airlines though ... I'm not sure. Anyone know?

[dakrewser]

You made one point which we all missed. Who is going to serve all the small cities that US Ariways and other legeacy airlines now serve? As you indicated, Southwest stays profitable by concentrating on the largest markets. Most of these smaller cities will probably wind up with one flight per day in and out.
But SWA doesn't fly into or out of the "largest" markets, using instead the smaller regional airports (Providence instead of Boston, Oakland instead of San Francisco, Baltimore instead of Washington, etc.). Even smaller places will need to be subsidized by governments if they wish to continue to provide air service...

[bicker]

Dave: You missed my point. I wasn't saying that Southwest serves every large city. I was saying that they don't serve small cities.

Having said that, Southwest actually does serve most of the largest markets. Los Angeles (2), Chicago (3), Houston (4 -- and WN serves two airports there), Philadelphia (5), San Diego (6), Detroit (7), Dallas (8), Phoenix (9), San Antonio (10), San Jose (11), Baltimore (12), Indianapolis (13), San Francisco (14, via San Jose, just 40 minutes away), Jacksonville (15), Columbus (16). So that's 14 of the top 16 urban places.

Also, the fact is that Southwest does serve Boston from Providence. I live NORTH of Boston and have no qualms about traveling to Providence, which is SOUTH of Boston, to get a flight. After all, it's less than an hour drive.

By the same token, Southwest does not provide service for the people who live in State College, Pennsylvania area. Folks cannot be expected to drive the seven hours roundtrip to Philadelphia or six hours roundtrip to Baltimore, just to take Southwest.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Bicker, you're right. When I fly into Providence I meet so many people headed to the Boston environs. They'd much rather not deal with Logan!

And BWI is an excellent alternative for Washington. So I agree that SW serves many of the largest markets, even if with a slight detour:rolleyes: . Whatever they're doing, it's working awfully well!:)

[S.S.Oceanlover]

I'm taking AirTran to FLL for my cruise in two weeks. I only wish I had booked AirTran for this flight in April, but their rates were considerably higher. However, considering that I could lose the $178.50 I paid, AirTran would have probably been a much better deal. :(

Guess I'll just have to keep my ears to the ground over the next several months and see what US Air is doing. I may end up eating those tickets and rebooking on another carrier if things get too dicey. I can't afford to go standby in this case ... I really need to get there on the dates I scheduled to fly.

Blue skies ...

--rita
While you have a much better chance of getting to LA on AirTran from Philly you have to fly to Atlanta first and then go to LA. It makes for a long day of traveling. You'd be better off flying Southwest.

Bill

[AirGorilla]

Having said that, Southwest actually does serve most of the largest markets. Los Angeles (2), Chicago (3), Houston (4 -- and WN serves two airports there), Philadelphia (5), San Diego (6), Detroit (7), Dallas (8), Phoenix (9), San Antonio (10), San Jose (11), Baltimore (12), Indianapolis (13), San Francisco (14, via San Jose, just 40 minutes away), Jacksonville (15), Columbus (16). So that's 14 of the top 16 urban places.

Just curious? How are these largest markets defined? I assume that NYC is #1. What about Miami, Atlanta, Denver and Minneapolis/St. Paul? How are these ranked in your listing?

Thanks.

[hdawson]

I think Atlanta is the busiest airport. Remember, NYC has three and Washington has three. In Atlanta, AirTran is the second busiest airline next to Delta in takeoff and landings.

[HeatherInFlorida]

AirGorilla, I think "most" was the operative word. Bicker didn't say "all".

[bicker]

How are these largest markets defined?US Census:

http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab22.txt

[jhannah]

1990 numbers are shown on the link. The Las Vegas valley (market) now has over 1.5 million. Nearly half a million in Las Vegas itself.

[bicker]

Southwest serves Las Vegas, Jim.

[jhannah]

Yes, I know. There was nothing in my post or your link that referenced Southwest Airlines. The table your link went to says "Table 22. Population of the 100 Largest Urban Places: 1990" and I was simply pointing out that the numbers shown are "old" numbers ... at least as far as Las Vegas is concerned.

[bicker]

Okay... understood.

Just for fun (?) I got the latest data, from the 2000 census, and switched to using markets instead of cities. In square brackets is at least one of the airports Southwest actually serves within that metropolitan area, as it is defined by the government

[ISP] 1 New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island, NY--NJ--CT--PA CMSA
[LAX] 2 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County, CA CMSA
[MDW] 3 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha, IL--IN--WI CMSA
4 Washington--Baltimore, DC--MD--VA--WV CMSA
[OAK] 5 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA CMSA
[PHL] 6 Philadelphia--Wilmington--Atlantic City, PA--NJ--DE--MD CMSA
[MHT] 7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--CT CMSA
[DTW] 8 Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint, MI CMSA
[DAL] 9 Dallas--Fort Worth, TX CMSA
[IAH] 10 Houston--Galveston--Brazoria, TX CMSA

Of course, the fact that Southwest serves most of the top markets in the country wasn't the point -- the point was that Southwest [b]doesn't serve cities that aren't amont the top markets, and that doesn't bode well for the folks in, for example, State College, Pennsylvania.

[jhannah]

You are right. Southwest has strict criteria that must be met before they enter a market. One is that they must be assured of a certain percentage of passenger traffic out of that airport. I guess that's one reason they have been so successful. I once lived in a community that sorely wanted Southwest service, but since SW could not be assured of the level of traffic they needed, they didn't come in. Still haven't in that market, either.

[bicker]

Precisely, and more and more airlines will realize that they can only make money by sticking to those larger markets, or having a monopoly in a smaller market that is so far from any larger market that they could charge substantially more.

[hdawson]

I just received email notification of a sale by AirTran. Tkts must be purchased by the 18th.