Definition of Service on HAL

[Arubalisa]

Was wondering...

[jhannah]

Service can be defined as an act or variety of work done for someone. So I went with the first choice. Overall, to me, it's meeting the needs of the passengers.

[Philip217]

Although many will not recognize it, this is an incredibly important and confusing question that Hospitality professionals have been asking for many years - especially in America.
The original French word "Service" was first used to describe the eating and drinking utensils. Later it was enlarged to include the servants who cleaned and handled those utensils in the process of serving meals. In more modern times, "Service" is often used to describe the style, speed, finesse, and finer hospitality skills and knowledge employed by any number of different positions in the Service and Hospitality Industries.
Lately, "Service" has taken on more psychological nuances and achieved a murkier definition. This has caused endless problems and confusion in the Hospitality business, As the psychologists were getting involved; telling waiters to kneel at the table in order to get higher tips (it works!) and American fast food restaurant managers were forcing staff to say, "Hi, my name is Jeff and I will be your server tonight" (Americans often confuse friendliness and good service. Friendliness gets better tips.), the US Internal Revenue Service was also working behind the scenes.
In the late 1970s, the US Government was running out of money (nothing new) and needed to find more. Big American Corporations had so many legal exemptions that they didnt have to pay any taxes. So the government decided to go after the waiters. The IRS arbitrarily decided that every waiter in America received at least a 15% tip on ALL his sales. So he was required to pay income tax on 15% of the total value of everything he sold and served.
This practice effectively reduced most waiters income by about 50%. Nearly every good and professional waiter in America quit his job and took another that paid better. The Restaurant Business in America never recovered from that event. To seal the deal, the IRS that year also removed nearly all entertainment deductions for businesses. It no longer made sense for businessmen to entertain clients in restaurants because it was not longer a deductable expense. That really finished off the American Restaurateurs.
Since that time, fast food has ruled America. It is just about the only way to make a profit in a restaurant in America today. As we all know, fast food restaurants dont really have waiters. The system of waiters, Captains, Maitre d`s who seem to know just about everything about food, wine, service, and gracious dining has pretty much died in America. These days, you generally find a college student who couldnt get a job anywhere else. He is good at gettng on his knees tableside, announcing his name as "your server for tonight", asking if you would "like the soup or the salad", and maybe suggesting "Fries on the side". He is very, very friendly (more tips!). Sadly he knows little or nothing about the food or drinks he is serving, has probably never eaten in a truly great restaurant, knows that Michelin makes tires in Europe but has never heard about their Hotel / Restaurant guide, thinks that Caesar Salad is Italian (most Italians have never heard of it), knows that Bordeaux is "somewhere is France", thinks that Burgundy is a color, and has never heard of Fernand Point (the inventor of the modern oven) or Auguste Escoffier (the Father of modern French Cooking).
But he sure is friendly. (More tips!)
Unfortunately middle America has suffered with this situation for several decades now. And its getting worse. The few knowledgeable professional restaurateurs left after the IRS was finished, are now retiring. Todays trainers have little knowledge to pass along to the newcomers (except "Be sure to get on your knees at the table and announce you name real loud")
So what do we have left? A lot of very friendly servers in the service industry.

As a result, the best way to get high marks in the service industry with Americans today is to be "Very Friendly" and get on your knees as often as possible. That, as many people will tell you, is good service.

[sail7seas]

Thank you for a very interesting post, Philip. I remembered about the IRS ruling for waiters but was never aware of the full effect it had on dining in America.


Friendly does not cut it for me. When we go to fine restaurants, I do not wish to find some college guy in a white shirt, black pants and clip on bow tie kneeling beside my table. But, you are correct that fine service in even the very best of America's restaurants is very rare.

[RuffinReady]

Philip217. Can you tell us where you are published?

I am curious as to what cruise line you work for, but I would not be surprised if you can't tell us.

Ruffin

[Kabana]

You hit the nail right on the head Philip.

I also think that the word "service" is overused and applied (poorly) to almost every occupation in the US these days.

[saltydog28]

And here I thought that the waiter knelt beside the table because my mother was very hard of hearing. Now I find out, it was all about the tip.
Pat.

[dakrewser]

Before you buy off too completely on Phillip's extremely one-sided view of dining, you should note that the French rarely eat at Michelin-starred (or the even more influential Gault Millau 1-4 toque rated establishments). While in the countryside there are many more "local" restaurants than in similar US towns, they are also fairly rapidly being replaced by fast food eateries (such as Quick) and "casual dining" chains, like Hippopotomus.

But Spain and Portugal still offer good food & service :)

It is also not difficult, at least in America's major cities, to find many traditional restaurants with professional staff providing outstanding service. The situation is no where near as bleak as many believe.

[Vicar]

In fairness to many of the servers in many of Americas restaurants today, I must say that many of them are very nice and very helpful.

As Philip did point out , the number of 5 star restaurants has diminished, and with more and more fast food and casual dining restaurants on the scene, dining out is more having a meal than a dining experience.

But for what dining out has become, there are many young people out there doing a very nice job, My daughter being one of them.

She works in one of the popular casual dining chains, and NO she does not know about the Michelin guide, or who Escoffier or Fernand Point were. But then again neither do her customers.

Today your average diner wants a good tasting meal, at a good value, served by a friendly and respectful server, in a pleasent and clean atmosphere.

Yes there are many who want a dining "experience" and there are places for that.

and yes there are terrible, rude, and snotty servers , and that is in any type of restaurant, and there is simply no call for that. I wouldn't stand for a snooty Maitre D' in a five star restaurant anymore thatn I would for a rude high school kid at McDonalds. And I have encountered them both

Many of these servers are high school and college kids working their way through school or helping out at home. Many are working to support families. Waiting tables is very hard work and its not always as Philip describes as the only kind of work they can get. A lot of well educated, successful and professional people got to where they are by waiting tables, or driving a cab, or whatever at one point in their lives.

What is so wrong about a server being friendly, smiling, introducing themselves, maybe telling a joke, as long as they are courteous, helpful and competant at their jobs. That to me is service and being a professional.

[jhannah]

In Yes there are many who want a dining "experience" and there are places for that.Absolutely. And for those who want a cruise experience more like the "classic" crossings of the early 20th century, there are ships that offer service more aligned with that.
Today your average diner wants a good tasting meal, at a good value, served by a friendly and respectful server, in a pleasent and clean atmosphere.And it appears that the bulk of today's cruisers are looking for the same combination of things.

[RuffinReady]

I still have fond memories of our being served Steak Dianne cooked by our server at our table. Oh well. :)


Ruffin

[HeatherInFlorida]

My mother always taught me that the definition of good service was a waiter/waitress who was there when you wanted to order, was able to answer any question you may have, served, cleared and brought coffee and dessert in a timely manner and ABOVE ALL was an unabstrusive as possible. The less you saw of him/her, the better.

I tend to agree though I'm not nearly as fussy as she is. Whenever a waiter kneels at our table, my DH has an awful habit of asking him to join us. I cringe. Sometimes the guy slides in! I laugh, try to be goodhearted about it and keep an open mind.

But I still think my Mom was right. I know most people don't agree and that's why they fall all over us 10 times during dinner asking if "everything is okay":eek: . Sometimes it's even hard to follow a conversation.

[Vicar]

Heather

where my daughter works, they do tell the servers to make frequent passes through their stations just to be seen by their customers so they are nearby if someone does need something, more napkins, extra salad dressing, another beer,whatever. and at least once to actually stop and ask if everything is okay, or if they need anything.

I know it seems like they always stop and ask when you have amouthful or are in a converstaion, but they are just doing as they are told.

I understand your moms point about servers being out of sight, but many people complain that the servers "cut and run" as soon as they bring the food and then it takes forever to find them if something is wrong with the order or they need something.

So sometimes its damned if you do , damned if you don't

[RuffinReady]

My mother always taught me that the definition of good service was a waiter/waitress who was there when you wanted to order, was able to answer any question you may have, served, cleared and brought coffee and dessert in a timely manner and ABOVE ALL was an unabstrusive as possible. The less you saw of him/her, the better.I would respectfully like to add one thing to your mother's list. I would like to get the bill without having to wait too long or to have to keep waving at the server to get their attention. :D

Ruffin

P.S. My eldest daughter's name is Heather.

[HeatherInFlorida]

P.S. My eldest daughter's name is Heather.
Well then, Ruffin, she's starting out on the right foot!!;)

Vicar, please understand that I know they are told to do this and I really don't mind. But sometimes it's overkill. I've had servers ask up to 10 times in the course of 40 minutes. I really wasn't complaining and the story of my Mom was really just for a giggle. It's simply not the way it's done anymore.

The funniest part is that they do always seem to completely disappear the minute you really need something. And there's that old looking down or away or anywhere except at you when you're trying to get their attention. But they work really, really hard and I'd be the last person to complain in any serious way about any of it. DH and I were talking about tipping just last night and we were saying that down here we have the most amazing servers ... always cheery, fun and anxious to please. We're very lucky.

[Vicar]

Heather

I understand what you are saying. Some of them do get a little bothersome, and then some of them just dissappear altogether.

I never complain unless someone is just really bad, slow, rude, or inept.

[CDRMark]

I am reminded of the time in a very nice "name" Manhattan restaurant when our waiter clocked out and went home, mid entree....an hour later, the maitre d' apologized and we got free tap water...

here in the States, waiting tables is very often "until something else comes along". Throughout Europe (until recently) waiting tables was one step in an honorable profession of 'restauranteering', that proceeded from dishwasher/busboy, through waiter, to captain and perhaps ownership.
I prefer discreet hovering and attentive absence. (Yes, I am an oxymoron.) Obsequiousness neither desired nor permitted.

The definition of GOOD (imo) depends on cost and venue. Sometimes I'm impressed if my food is not flung in my direction.

As far as HAL goes, they exceeded my expectations in every aspect.
Cheers
MarkB

[damcruiser]

My definition:

Dam Good

[Vicar]

Also in fairnes to the servers. Patrons can be kind of rude and nasty. Of course we all have a level of service that we expect and have a right to as a paying customer, but some people go too far.

Anyone who has ever worked with the public in any capacity, know there have always been and always will be, " one of those" every now and again.

I worked in a department store for years during high school and college and know them well.

Even when you are doing the best job you can, someone will find fault and some can get loud and nasty about it. I have watched some of these clods tear into some poor waiter or salesperson, who are just doing their job and are not to blame for this persons problem. I sit there and watch with my fists clenched, while the server is nothing less than polite and understanding.

So there are arguements on both sides

[Fit Heart]

Just wanted to add my two cents worth. As a bartender and waiter (and darn good ones I might add) in the late 70s and 80s, I was working in the industry when the government began mandatorily taxing bartenders and waiters. It was not 15% as mentioned, but 8% allowing for the fact that service staff often don't get the suggested 15% from some customers. I think it is important to keep in mind that tipped service staff have always been supposed to claim as income ALL of their tips. Prior to the government stepping in, very little of this income was claimed. The only tips that were regularly claimed as income were charged tips, since the government would have a record of those. Did I take advantage of this and not claim all of my tips like everyone else?...you betcha I did. By claiming 8% of my sales in tips, I did feel the changes financially, but I stayed in the business knowing I was still enjoying the job and making good money. I'm not sure if the 8% of sales has increased in the past years, but this regulation is one that our servers know of before getting into the business. I appreciate good service greatly, because of my history in the business. Even when dining at a casual restaurant, I want to see that my servers are at least appearing like they still enjoy their jobs. Attention to details to the best of your abilitiy, respect for those you are serving and the ability to personalize your service to each of your customers define good service in my book. Tipping still allows the customer some control over the service experience.

[DFD1]

Interesting thread. I enjoyed reading each take on the subject at hand.

For me, so far as HAL goes, I'm not interested in having a "close personal relationship" with any of the crew members. While I appreciate them very much, I'm not curious enough to want to "chat" with them about much of anything.

If they will just deliver their assigned duties in a timely and reasonably pleasant manner I promise the tip will be good and I'll go away looking forward to the next time.

Often times someone on here will go on and on about visiting with some staff member or the other, about getting to know all about their families back home, about how chatty they were around the dinner table, taking time to visit between the soup and the nuts, etc.

For me, that's not service, it's more like solicitation.

[dakrewser]

For me, so far as HAL goes, I'm not interested in having a "close personal relationship" with any of the crew members. While I appreciate them very much, I'm not curious enough to want to "chat" with them about much of anything.
Hear, hear!!

I see my postman, UPS & Fedex delivery-people and assorted other service providers almost daily. I don't know very much about them that doesn't appear on their name tag, yet we are friendly with each other and I show my appreciation for their little "extra" services (making sure packages are out of the rain, noticing mis-addressed pieces, etc.) during the end of year holidays. Restaurant servers I treat similarly - with a tip appropriate to their level of service.

We can pass pleasant conversation as acquaintances (weather, sports, current events, menu, etc.) without ever having to get deeply involved. I would never wish to do anything that might be an impediment to the service that the person is performing, nor interfere with another patron's enjoyment.

[xpcdoojk]

Whoa, what a load of cattle manure.... from the guy from Beijing....

jc

[DFD1]

Okay, Chinaman, I'll bite....Who's hauling it?

[Orcrone]

When I go into a restaurant at home I may never see the server again. However, on a cruise I will be be in the dining room most evenings. That gives the steward a chance to know my likes, dislikes, habits, etc. I have a large thirst. On my first cruise, before cruise lines started charging for soft drinks, I would have several glasses of diet coke with my meal. By the second evening the steward had learned that and would bring me several drinks when I arrive.

Two years ago we traveled with our daughters, then 13 and 15. The steward gave them that little bit of extra attention that made them feel special. In fact, it seemed that the assistants did most of the running, while the steward, while working hard, was always near his tables to make sure that all needs were taken care of.

On either of these two cruises there seemed to always be someone there if something was needed; a second cup of coffee, more bread, etc. Unfortunately on my last cruise it seemed that the steward and the assistants were always running and it made them less accessable. Waiting ten minutes to find a steward in order to get a second cup of coffee does not affect my cruise experience, but it is not what I consider good service either.