Beware, purchasing jewelry and US customs

[cmdchiefthom]

I had an interesting experience disembarking the Zuiderdam last Saturday, after a fantastic ten day cruise. I had purchased a lovely piece of very expensive jewelry for my wife onboard the hip, early in the cruise. Of course one of their selling points is that their prices are the best because they are tax, and duty free. They also insisted that I process the transaction on a credit card through the ship's front desk, which at the time, I found odd, but the officer behind the front desk seemed to know exactly what was happening.

Fast forward to disembarkation, last Saturday morning. On our customs and immigration form, I declared everything we had purchased in a foreign port. When we left the ship, we had an escort down to the customs area that we assumed was based on our cabin number which was a deluxe suite. When we passed all the lines waiting for clearance, and were taken directly to a customs agent behind a table in a special area, we thought this was pretty cool. She questioned us about all our purchases, and then asked us to see our shipboard account statement. She went over it with a fine toothed comb. She then asked if we had purchased anything else onboard the ship. I told here whe had purchased a piece of jewelry, but it was from the duty free store aboard ship. She informed us that duty free didn't mean there was not duty due, just that no duty had be paid. She somehow knew the value of the piece we purchased, and stated we had to now pay the duty on it. She accepted our ignorance of the rules, but we had to pay up.

I share this info with the readers here, because after years of cruising, I had no idea purchases made aboard ship were not duty free. I also pose this question: how customs knew about this specific purchase made aboard the Zuiderdam which because of the shop staff, was processed through the front desk and did not appear on our statement?

Not a great way to end a perfect cruise.:rolleyes:

[Topsham]

?

Not a great way to end a perfect cruise.:rolleyes:



No... but you did get an escort off the ship!!!!

I think you will find that the US Customs doc asks you to list all goods ACQUIRED ABROAD... not 'FOREIGN PORTS'... and ABROAD means ABOARD as well. Sorry, but there it is.

Also, the ship is obliged to report to US Customs any large purchases of duitable items made on board. They are not trying to catch you out, they are just obeying the rules.

You credit card was processed on board at the beginning of the cruise and a hold but on the card for something like $60 per passanger per day. I large purchase would obviously go over the amount on holm, hence the reason to ask you to pay directly at the front office. Again, standard proceedure.

Now what would be good policy would be for this information to be posted somewhere in you cabin directory or in the Daily News... one day per cruise or alternatively the sales person in the shop should have explained the charging system as well as the fact that you still had to declare the item on arrival back in the US.

Too bad, but at least you have a story to tell when wearing the piece!

Stephen

[Krazy Kruizers]

Sorry you didn't know this. This is not a new ruling.

But when you fill out your customs form, you must also include prices of all items you purchase on the ship. The only exceptions might be candy and snacks you buy as you will concume them on the ship.

Years and years ago we bought a camera in St Thomas. I knew that we were within our customs limit but I still had our purchase slip handy for inspection. In fact I always keep all sales receipt handy -- just in case. Sure enough we were asked to show our sales slips that one particular cruise. Everything was in order and we owed nothing and they sent us on our way.

[cruie4ever]

Yes you have to pay duty if the purchases exceed your legal limits ,whether they are bought in a foreign port or aboard the ship . now buying in St Thomas is a US virgin island .Keeping your receipt there & even if the item was $10000 there would be no duty to pay.

[hrhdhd]

Duty free means that the price upfront is reduced (the retailer didn't pay duty and will pass on that savings to you), not that you don't have to pay duty when entering the U.S. See the following from U.S. Customs and Border Protection:
http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/top_10_trvler_tps.ctt/top_10_trvler_tps.pdf

[koolforkatz]

This happened to my husband last year on a Princess ship. He purchased a Tag watch onboard and as we were disembarking - when he put in his ship card - he had obviously been flagged and was escorted to the customs area. However, after seeing his Canadian passport they let him go as it obviously didn't apply to him since it was U.S. customs. He did however, pay duty when we arrived in Canada.

[azalice]

Last December, after purchasing in St. Maarten and listing the amounts on the US Customs info card, we were not charged. We were supposed to be charged but the customs guy said to wait a minute, he went to a supervisor (at least we saw him talking to someone else), and then he came back and told us to just pass through. We knew we owed and expected to pay. We did not ask for an explanation.

Alice

[serendipity1499]

Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that your ship is considered a foreign country to U.S. Customs & Bordfer Patrol..

We had a different but similar experience in Alaska.. When we got to our last Alaskan port, on the Veendam, we decided to pack up a box of gifts all purchased in Alaska & mail them home..As we were trying to leave the ship with our packed box HAL Security stopped us & told us we had to fill out a customs declaration & then be taken by HAL to Customs which was a few miles away.. Could not believe it...I explained that all the items were purchased in the USA but it made no difference..

Fortunately the nice young Customs Inpector had not left the ship yet & heard us talking to Security...He explained that since HAL is a foreign flag carrier, it is considered to be a foreign county...He waited for us to fill out the customs form, initialed it & then sent us on our way to the PO..

We've always declared anything we've ever bought on board before but never realized that even purchases in Alaska must be declared..

And, as someone else mentioned duty free does not mean you don't have to pay duty when you arrive home..It only means they will not charge you duty when selling it to you..You still have to declare all purchases & if you are over your allotment they will charge duty..

Actually you were lucky they let you off..Because Customs usually doesn't consider ignorance of the law a good excuse.. Unfortunately, you probably are now on the Customs list & will be carefully scrutinized again when re-entering the Country..

Cheers....:)Betty

[serendipity1499]

Forgot to mention that in addition to the URL which hrhdhd posted the Know before you go booklet clearly mentions items purchased aboard ship or even a plane must be declared..See this portion of the "Know before you go" U.s. Customs booklet..

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/what_you_declare.xml (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/what_you_declare.xml)

Quote: What You Must Declare

(08/21/2009)http://206.241.31.158/ImageCache/cgov/templates/images/spacerclear_2egif/v1/image_2ddata/1/spacerclear.gif

Items you purchased and are carrying with you upon return to the United States.
Items you inherited.
Items you bought in duty-free shops, on the ship, or on the plane.
Repairs or alterations to any items you took abroad and then brought back, even if the repairs/alterations were performed free of charge.
Items you brought home for someone else.
Items you intend to sell or use in your business, including businesss merchandise that you took out of the United States on your trip.
Unquote
As Topsham says now you have a good story to tell..

I never knew that even alterations & repairs made to an item, even if free must be declared..Wonder how customs decides on what it would have cost...

Cheers.....:)Betty

[serendipity1499]

No... but you did get an escort off the ship!!!!

Now what would be good policy would be for this information to be posted somewhere in you cabin directory or in the Daily News... one day per cruise or alternatively the sales person in the shop should have explained the charging system as well as the fact that you still had to declare the item on arrival back in the US.

Stephen

Welcome back Stephen...

Agree with you..Not only the Salesperson but the CD should also mention these rules when he/she gives his disembarcation talk..

Also on the Alaska cruises all cruise lines should make passengers aware of rules about taking items off a foreign flag ship to the Post Office even when purchased in the U.S.

Always knew that any purchases made aboard ships or planes had to be declared, but never for the life of me thought that U.S. purchases could not be mailed to a U.S. address from a U.S. post office in a U.S. city unless they are declared on a Customs form...:confused::confused::confused:

Cheers....:)Betty

[serendipity1499]

Yes you have to pay duty if the purchases exceed your legal limits ,whether they are bought in a foreign port or aboard the ship . now buying in St Thomas is a US virgin island .Keeping your receipt there & even if the item was $10000 there would be no duty to pay.

Very true but believe that the item still must be declared on your customs form..

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/what_you_declare.xml

In addition to the quote in my previous post it goes on to say..

Quote Also, if you acquired items in the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, or in a Caribbean Basin Economic Recovery Act country (see section on $800 exemption for a list of these countries) and asked the merchant to send them to you, you must still declare them when you go through customs. This differs from the usual procedure for mailed items, which is discussed in the section on Sending Items Back to the United States..Unquote

Cheers...:)Betty

[wander]

On a World Cruise the line gave us a itemized list of all our "gifts" with the suggested value of each for Customs. Even gifts count.

[trvlcrzy]

Always knew that any purchases made aboard ships or planes had to be declared, but never for the life of me thought that U.S. purchases could not be mailed to a U.S. address from a U.S. post office in a U.S. city unless they are declared on a Customs form...:confused::confused::confused:



The only reason this is true is because the goods were transported to the ship before the attempt to mail them... and transporting them in a box made it obvious as well.

We went to Key West during our most recent cruise. Items purchased there do not have to be declared. Tax was already paid (just as it is in Alaska).

We learned this lesson as well. If you go straight to the post office with your purchases before returning to the ship, then it is no different than mailing from NC to TN. Once goods cross the gangway into the ship, however, they have 'traveled' to a foreign country and are being transported 'back' into the U.S. We had planned to get boxes in Juneau and ship in Ketchikan... the delay of meeting with customs changed our minds. They were interfering with our time in port! Forget this... we'll wait until we get back to Seattle to mail it.

[iancal]

We would not buy any high end jewelry or timepieces on board ship. We find them overpriced AND it really bothers me that the cruise lines provide OUR private information to the custom and excise authorities.

[BruceMuzz]

I had an interesting experience disembarking the Zuiderdam last Saturday, after a fantastic ten day cruise. I had purchased a lovely piece of very expensive jewelry for my wife onboard the hip, early in the cruise. Of course one of their selling points is that their prices are the best because they are tax, and duty free. They also insisted that I process the transaction on a credit card through the ship's front desk, which at the time, I found odd, but the officer behind the front desk seemed to know exactly what was happening.

Fast forward to disembarkation, last Saturday morning. On our customs and immigration form, I declared everything we had purchased in a foreign port. When we left the ship, we had an escort down to the customs area that we assumed was based on our cabin number which was a deluxe suite. When we passed all the lines waiting for clearance, and were taken directly to a customs agent behind a table in a special area, we thought this was pretty cool. She questioned us about all our purchases, and then asked us to see our shipboard account statement. She went over it with a fine toothed comb. She then asked if we had purchased anything else onboard the ship. I told here whe had purchased a piece of jewelry, but it was from the duty free store aboard ship. She informed us that duty free didn't mean there was not duty due, just that no duty had be paid. She somehow knew the value of the piece we purchased, and stated we had to now pay the duty on it. She accepted our ignorance of the rules, but we had to pay up.

I share this info with the readers here, because after years of cruising, I had no idea purchases made aboard ship were not duty free. I also pose this question: how customs knew about this specific purchase made aboard the Zuiderdam which because of the shop staff, was processed through the front desk and did not appear on our statement?

Not a great way to end a perfect cruise.:rolleyes:



This is nothing new.
Duty Free has only to do with purchasing - not importing.

Since every country has different rules about importing expensive items, it is the responsibility of the citizens of that country to know the rules and laws of their country.
Since most seasoned travelers know all about this, the shops onboard and in the islands rarely feel the need to educate you.

For many years the US Government has pressured the cruise lines and shops in the Caribbean to report large purchases made by cruise passengers.

The shop employee had you pay at the Purser's Desk only because the purchase was over the pre-set daily spending credit limit of your onboard account. The POS System in the jewelry shop does not have the capability to authorize a large credit card charge. They took you to the Purser's Desk to get that done.
There is so much credit card fraud onboard ships these days that the cruise lines want to get up front authorization for large purchases before handing over the merchandise.

Every time a cruise ship approaches the USA to end a cruise, the Purser's Department has already sent US Customs a detailed report of all onboard purchases over US$1,000. It really deosn't matter how, when, or where you paid for it. If you purchased it outside the USA, US Customs wants to know about it. And they want to see if you are honest enough to report it.

Most Caribbean shops do pretty much the same thing. When you buy an expensive piece of jewelery there, they usually know what ship you were on. This purchase is reported directly to the US Customs Department. Results are the same.

[room010]

We would not buy any high end jewelry or timepieces on board ship. We find them overpriced AND it really bothers me that the cruise lines provide OUR private information to the custom and excise authorities.

Exactly. Retail outlets like to use the words "Duty Free" to lure customers into thinking they are getting the Bargain Of The Century but unless you are purchasing consumables like liquor, cigarettes, etc which you then actually consume (!) you eventually have to pay the duty somewhere down the line so it's a false economy. You can take the risk of no declaring goods - and many do - but customs are well aware that cruise passengers have almost certainly purchased "Duty Free" goods at some stage during their trip and so are very scrupulous about checking declaration forms and other documentation.

If you want a bargain you are better off negotiating with a reputable local jeweller in your home town. You'd be amazed how "flexible" they can be once they know you are planning to spend some money. Retail jewellery markups are often well over 100% so they have plenty of wiggle room if you are prepared to do a little hard bargaining. Hey, times are hard but business is business ;)

[iancal]

I shudder to think how many people have paid too much for poorer grades of stones, settings, and gold or overpaid for quality goods simply because they were 'hooked' in by those time tested scams called "duty free" and "appraisal certificates" (that always seem to be for in excess of twice what the mark paid for the goods in the first place). Ask someone in the trade, it is a bit of a joke.

[bob brown]

We would not buy any high end jewelry or timepieces on board ship. We find them overpriced AND it really bothers me that the cruise lines provide OUR private information to the custom and excise authorities.
I'll have to disagree somewhat....I purchased a nice Citizen Eco-drive watch on a recent cruise for 40% off list....much better than the usual 25% discount offered by most local merchants. And while this is not exactly what you might consider 'high-end', it still was a nice savings, and since below the customs limit, actually 'duty-free'.

[Gablin]

If you purchase fine jewelry more often than weddings, 25, 50 and 75 year anniversaries, you will benefit by establishing a relationship with a local jeweler in your home town. Try to find one who is a gemologist - not just a jewelry store owner. There is one here in my town, and another I trust in a nearby town.

You will still pay a huge markup, but you will know exactly what you are getting.

I wouldn't buy even a tiny pearl tie tack on board a cruise ship, or out of town.

See http://www.gia.edu/

[iancal]

I too bought an Eco drive watch..on the Westerdam. I bought it because I liked it. It was 40 percent off (arn't they always). During our two day post cruise time is Ft. Lauderdale. I saw the same watch in a watch store in Sawgrass Mills shopping center. It was selling for $5. more that I paid on board. I was interested in another watch...it was in the on board jewelry store. So much so that I did some on line price checking. It was a niche Swiss brand. The on board duty free price was at least 20 percent higher than on line US prices.

[m steve]

$1600 pp is the limit and even if you don't reach it, you still have to declare what you bought there. It's up to the customs agent to determine if any duty must be paid. Both SIL and I were checked as we left the ship last year as we made large on board purchases. Both forms had them listed and that was the end of it. The limit on the ship is $800 pp. and must be reported as well.

[Parrot57]

We were on a Disney cruise some years back and were told that if we purchased an item in a foreign port that was made (it may have been come from )in the US we would only have to list it as US goods returning and we would not have to pay customs. We did this upon returning and had no problems.

[RevNeal]

I'll have to disagree somewhat....I purchased a nice Citizen Eco-drive watch on a recent cruise for 40% off list....much better than the usual 25% discount offered by most local merchants. And while this is not exactly what you might consider 'high-end', it still was a nice savings, and since below the customs limit, actually 'duty-free'.

I have made it a practice to buy a new Citizen Eco-drive watch about every 2 or 3 cruises ... I've developed quite a collection. They are great watches, and I now wear a different watch every day. :) The price is significantly less than I can find in the States; I know, I've done a lot of pricing on them and the savings is real (not just in the price paid, but also in the lack of tax). I've bought two watches off-ship before: once in St. Thomas and once in St. Marteen. On both occasions I paid more than I would have aboard the ship, however they didn't have that particular watch aboard ship and I wanted the watch. :)

[sail7seas]

$1600 pp is the limit and even if you don't reach it, you still have to declare what you bought there. It's up to the customs agent to determine if any duty must be paid. Both SIL and I were checked as we left the ship last year as we made large on board purchases. Both forms had them listed and that was the end of it. The limit on the ship is $800 pp. and must be reported as well.

I am by no means an expert but I think there is a contingency to having double the duty free exemption when visiting USVI. Before relying upon the above info, you may wish to verify that at least 50% of the purchases you are declaring must have been made in USVI. You can bring back more liquor than permitted usually but you must have bought a certain percentage of it in USVI. You can bring more cigarettes but, again, where did you buy them.

Please verify before depending upon this being accurate.

[fann1sh]

As someone whose hobby/part time job is jewellery, some trivia: duty on jewellery is much higher than on stones/gems.

A classic example is a string of pearls. Typical to import these with the clasp not attached. The clasp can be taxed as jewellery, but the pearls are simply gemstones.

Also, the value of the pearls as a mere strand is much lower than as a necklace. It costs little to have a jeweller unite the two. However, this doesn't change that value was added inside the U.S. after import, so dramatically lowers the dutiable amount.

So you win twice: lower value, lower percentage of duty.

Obviously, not practical with some intricate pieces.

[sail7seas]

Some unset gemstones must be declared but can be imported without duty. You cannot simply have the jeweler remove the stone from the setting and bring both with you. It must be a loose stone with no setting.

[m steve]

I don't know how I can explain it more clearly but I'll try. If you shop and buy everything (liquor, jewelery, perfume, Etc.) in th VI you are allowed $1600 worth of goods to be imported duty free. That's 5 ltrs of Liquor (1 being from the VI), 5 cartons of cigarettes and the rest of your purchases. If you buy some of the above in another island or the ship, then you must reduce what you buy in the VI. As with all purchases a family can group all together even if one is a child (no Liquor or cig allowance) to increase the total so a family of 4 can buy $6400 duty free. Here's an example: you get 10 bottles, 10 cartons of smokes =$$600, you then can buy a watch for $5800 and all of it will be tax and duty free. All of this must be listed on your customs form.

[benny salami]

:cool: Great review of the limit for USVI. There is a reason USVI is a shopper's paradise. Savings on sales tax alone can be considerable. Selection is unrivaled. If you can't find it here-it doesn't exist. Besides jewels/watches check out Mr. Tablecloth. You will find something you must have.

Wish this thread was up before our last cruise. Maybe it would slow down DW?

[sail7seas]

:cool: Great review of the limit for USVI. There is a reason USVI is a shopper's paradise. Savings on sales tax alone can be considerable. Selection is unrivaled. If you can't find it here-it doesn't exist. Besides jewels/watches check out Mr. Tablecloth. You will find something you must have.

Wish this thread was up before our last cruise. Maybe it would slow down DW?

Where do you find wonderful, quality leather goods in St. Thomas?

Aside from Yacht Haven Marina shops which opened around 1/12 or so years ago, I don't know any other fine leather shops.

There used to be a Gucci shop but that is now Rolex. I don't think they ever had Fendi. Perhaps there's a Ferragamo at Yacht Haven but I'm not sure.
Even what was one of the best perfume/cosmetic shops closed. Tropicana is now out of business after at least 40 years in the same location. That probably closed Longchamps, as well. :(

Plenty of jewelry and loads of t-shirt shops though.

[agabbymama]

I believe for the most part, we are allowed to spend $800 pp, except for tobacco and liquor products, before we would have to pay anything for those purchases.

I try to limit my souvenirs to under that $800 threshold, if I'm traveling alone, but you can combine with other family members traveling together, so my spending gets increased to $1600 if my husband is with me.

I don't make horrendously expensive purchases. And I've never had to pay any excess duty tax in my 23 years of traveling broad.

[whogo]

I am not a shopper, but I feel for the OP. "Duty Free" is a misleading description and no one working is such a shop is going to point out that duty may be due on the purchase.

[iancal]

If you want Seiko or Citizen, check on line..even for Eco-drive. Seiko/Citizen also have a challenge controlling the 'grey market' so look for stores that a) sell everyday for 33-40 off list, and b) provide you with a store, not a Citizen watch warranty. The trick is 'list'...is can be meaningless unless you have done some comparison shopping. These products are sometimes purchased from Seiko/Citizen in Hong Kong, Singapore, etc, by a wholesaler and resold to a retailer outside of their country (in contravention of their franchise hence the term grey market). I really like my Eco drive...actually more that the my Tag or Certina. Really like the bullet proof crystal. We have seen these on HAL, Princess, Celebrity etc. The on board prices are good, they are fair, but they are not the duty free bargain that they are presented as. That watch store in Sawgrass Mills (sp) shopping center had lots of Eco Drives at very good prices. I do not know if they were grey market...did not get that far with the clerk.

[bob brown]

I really like my Eco Drive (Caliber 2100) in stainless with white dial. The best part is I never have to buy batteries, or have to wind up.
I have noticed that almost all mall stores that sell these, always sell at 25% off MSRP. Occasionally, stores like Macy's offer an additional 10% off, but then you have to add the sales tax which is almost 9% here.

[Jahla Jahla]

I know this is not exactly with the postings, but thought it would be interesting. Back in the mid 70's, I flew to Japan to join hubby for some R & R. Before I left the states, I took my pearls to the customs house in San Diego, and got a certificate that the pearls were mine, the estimated value, and that I was traveling with them to match the pearls. I did this so that I wouldn't have to explain, if questioned, that I had taken them to Japan, not bought them there, and only wanted to match them. Got back to the State, and had no problem, and no duty.

[noblepa]

I know this is not exactly with the postings, but thought it would be interesting. Back in the mid 70's, I flew to Japan to join hubby for some R & R. Before I left the states, I took my pearls to the customs house in San Diego, and got a certificate that the pearls were mine, the estimated value, and that I was traveling with them to match the pearls. I did this so that I wouldn't have to explain, if questioned, that I had taken them to Japan, not bought them there, and only wanted to match them. Got back to the State, and had no problem, and no duty.

You can do the same with other expensive, potentially dutiable items, such as cameras or computers. Just go to the nearest airport with international flights, find the customs office, and fill out a little form. You must take the items with you.

[navybankerteacher]

It is hard to believe that anyone seriously thinks "duty free" actually means anything beyond the fact that import tariffs are not included in the price.

Anyone who has ever previously re-entered the US after being out of the country has signed a customs form --and unless they are in the habit of signing things "under penalty of perjury" without reading them, they have to have a fair idea of how things work.

[pms4104]

You can do the same with other expensive, potentially dutiable items, such as cameras or computers. Just go to the nearest airport with international flights, find the customs office, and fill out a little form. You must take the items with you.
I believe that the only things you can register are those that have serial numbers, such as cameras, computers, and some watches. Also, perhaps, items with distinct markings or engravings.

[chrismch]

This is from cbp.gov site regarding higher duty for certain countries...

Increased Duty Rates - Items from Certain Countries

Under what is known as its “301” authority, the United States may impose a much higher than normal duty rate on products from certain countries.
Currently, the United States has imposed a 100 percent rate of duty on certain products of Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, The Federal Republic of Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the
Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the Ukraine. If you should bring more of any of these products back with you than fall within your exemption or flat rate of duty, (see below) you will pay as much in duty
as you paid for the product or products.

[iancal]

The words duty free, fifty percent off, etc. are absolutely meaningless to us. The only thing we care about is the net price to us. The rest is bumph. We often browse the 'duty free' shops in Heathrow (and other cities) when we pass through. We have never purchased anything...everything we looked at from Pringle sweaters to watches to chocolate was all available at home for about the same or a lower price. Cannot comment on perfume as DW does not buy it, smoking products or alcohol. The alcohol was/is about the same price as home but I would never bother carting a few bottles of hootch on and off the plan unless the savings were substantial.

[Putterdude]

DW bought me a Tag Heuer watch at Little Switzerland in St. Thomas for something in excess of $1,000 in theory we saved $400 in duty plus the sales taxes. We had no problem with customs when we landed in FLL. Now I likely could have bought the same watch in the US for close to the same number but would have had to pay shipping or taxes or both and not have known if the store was a Tag store or if the watch was genuine.

[iancal]

Watches, and cameras, for that matter are one thing that you can easily compare prices on assuming that you are are well versed in exactly what model you want and buy from an authorized reseller. Jewelry is quite another matter and this is where the retailers have lots of 'leeway' with unsuspecting or naive customers. Last time we were in Hong Kong we were warned by the locals to be very careful where you buy 'brand name' products-watches and cameras-as there are lots of imitations out there. We were taken on a tour in Hong Kong a number of years ago. One of the stops was a small jewelry factory. They showed us the difference between a quality product and a very poor imitiation. At first glance, if you did not know the business, you would have been fooled by the lesser quality product-I was. It was only when they compared it side by side with the quality product and a jeweller pointed out the differences were we able to truly understand the differences in the quality of the mounts and the stones. It was an education. Even the gold itself was of a lesser quality but to the uneducated like us, we could not tell until it was pointed out to us. The lesser quality product had the stamps inside the ring but we were told that they were meaningless. Like always, it is buyer beware.