HAL Marketing Strategy...Not Sure If It's Headed In the Right Direction

[Roz]

I've done 3 cruises on HAL, and 1 on Carnival. A couple of things keep bringing me back to HAL. First, they deliver a consistent, quality product that I define as a refined cruise experience. Second, it's a relaxing adult atmosphere. And third, HAL is very hospitable to singles.

I have a couple of concerns about the direction HAL seems to be going in its marketing efforts. With the introduction of the Vista class ships and upgrades to the Club HAL program, they've been very open about wanting to court families. I have no problem with families, per se, having grown up in one myself (LOL!). But there are so many cruise lines out there already (Carnival, Disney, RCCL, to name a few) that cater to families, why doesn't HAL work on defining another niche market to go after? Or expand the niche they already have?

There are naysayers who predict that when the older HAL loyalists die off, the line will meet its demise. I'm 52 and was born at the peak of the baby boom. There's a whole heck of a lot of us coming along to fill the current HAL demographic.

If HAL can cram a family of four (including a toddler in swim diapers!) into my cabin, there's no incentive for them to entice a single adult like myself with lower single supplements than most other cruise lines.

Why does modernizing and staying current (which I think HAL is doing with its Signature of Excellence upgrades) have to mean young and family oriented?

These are just my thoughts and opinions. Anyone out there thinking the same thing or maybe have a different perspective?

Roz

[tommy]

Hi ROZ,Hows the weather in Music City?The way we get around the family or kids problem is we book between Oct and March exclude Christmas break.Generally not to many familys and pricing is reasonable.If Holland is going to be compete they have to start to draw on the younger and families.So we work around it. TOM

[Roz]

Hi Tommy, weather here is overcast but relatively warm for January. I still don't understand why the viability of a business is dependent upon appealing to young people and families.

I'll use a non-cruise example. My favorite women's clothing store is Chico's. They are successful because they don't carry low-rise jeans, belly shirts, and short, tight skirts. Instead, they go after the women my age who want chic, up to date clothing but know we aren't teenagers and don't want to dress like them.

Thanks for expressing your views.

Roz

[gizmo]

But there are so many cruise lines out there already (Carnival, Disney, RCCL, to name a few) that cater to families, why doesn't HAL work on defining another niche market to go after? Or expand the niche they already have?

There are naysayers who predict that when the older HAL loyalists die off, the line will meet its demise. I'm 52 and was born at the peak of the baby boom. There's a whole heck of a lot of us coming along to fill the current HAL demographic.



Agree 100%. I sometimes wonder what planet these marketing people are from.

[tommy]

Roz, They keep building ships they have to fill them with someone.I think with the cutbacks in personnel and lowering of pricing they are going the Carnival route.Unfortunately. TOM

[FlorenceItaly]

Your post summed up my feelings too. I love to cruise, but as my son nears adulthood(he is 17), I am no longer interested in a "family cruise" environment....I am not a child hater, just am in a different stage of life. I prefer cruiselines who can provide a week or two of what is compatible to my lifestyle. HAL would be wise to rethink their strategy. There is a HUGE market of people like you and I.

Marie

[jhannah]

There are naysayers who predict that when the older HAL loyalists die off, the line will meet its demise.
Hardly. HAL was sailing the seas long before I came along. And they'll still be at it long after I'm gone. (Remember that old song, "Got Along Without Ya' Before I Met Ya' ... Gonna' Get Along Without Ya' Now"? ;) ) HAL's demographic was different a hundred years ago than it is now. They are still in business because they made modifications to attract the changing population. You and I want something in our voyage today that is quite a bit different from then. (For one thing, I can afford to cruise now!) But HAL has to get at least some "youngsters" in their camp now so they, in turn, will be the faithful HAL loyalists of the future.

That said, I certainly agree with your concern that HAL (or any cruise line, for that matter) try so hard to become all things to all people that they lose their basic identity. I think -- hope, at least -- that the marketing gurus at HAL understand their market and in their effort to broaden it they won't abandon what has made them what they are.

[mick70]

Roz
You are right on!! My DW and I love our grand kid to death but don't want them under foot either. We are active early 60's and want to enjoy ourselfs without having a bunch of crumb snacher (sic) around. OH YES and by the way THREE WEEKS FROM TODAY we will be on the"O":D .

[localady]

That said, I certainly agree with your concern that HAL (or any cruise line, for that matter) try so hard to become all things to all people that they lose their basic identity. I think -- hope, at least -- that the marketing gurus at HAL understand their market and in their effort to broaden it they won't abandon what has made them what they are.

I would think that a family expecting a "Disney" or "Carnival fun ship" atmosphere would be disappointed with HAL. I myself am bringing my 2 teen boys on board for an Easter cruise and I have let them know that it's a more "adult" experience and I expect them to dress and act appropriately. Would I have brought them when they were younger? Probably not, as at that time Disney was the best option. A good TA should hopefully let a new cruiser know HAL has a more sedate atmosphere.

The colored glossies marketed are all very nice but does your steward really bring you a cup of coffee in a silver pot while you sit on your deck of remember your 2 lumps of sugar? Hardly.:rolleyes: I would think a young family would find the HAL setting too sedate, but that all depends on the family.

I know my children are of an age that they can act appropriately and I am quite thankful that the Zaandam will have the new teen area. That said, I don't see HAL becoming a "fun" ship anytime soon and that is just fine and dandy with me as my husband and I cruise more often without the boys and we both enjoy the HAL atmosphere.:cool:

[Roz]

Marie, Jim, Localady, Gizmo and Mick, thanks for adding your 2 cents. Jim, I think you summed it up when you said a cruise line can't be all things to all people. You end up with a homogenized product. Reminds me of GM with their Oldsmobile, Buick, and Pontiac. The lines were blurred between product lines and they eventually had to drop some of them.

I agree that you can't appeal strictly to one age group, but you do have to focus your efforts.

Thanks again for your input. By the way, I just got thru researching an itinerary I'm especially interested in, that happens to be on a Carnival ship. So I'm not a HAL only person. If I do decide to take this particular cruise, my expectations will be quite different than if I were booking on HAL.

Roz

[Sailboater]

Another possibility just occured to me. There must be parents out there that want their children including teens to travel in a "refined" atmosphere. They might appreciate having a cruise line that allows their children to have a good time while maintaining the appropriate decorum. If HAL is after that market, we shouldn't see the ships turned into the dreaded "fun ship" experience but may see additional families with well behaved children aboard.

Now the question remains, will HAL "enforce" the rules and maintain the refined atmosphere that the parents sought or will enough unruly children also come aboard and defeat it. Time will tell.

[HeatherInFlorida]

........ I still don't understand why the viability of a business is dependent upon appealing to young people and families.

I'll use a non-cruise example. My favorite women's clothing store is Chico's. They are successful because they don't carry low-rise jeans, belly shirts, and short, tight skirts. Instead, they go after the women my age who want chic, up to date clothing but know we aren't teenagers and don't want to dress like them.

Thanks for expressing your views.

Roz

Hi, Roz ... a woman after my own heart. Chico's is my favorite, too, and perfect for cruise clothing -- especially evening stuff!!! Wish I bought their stock long ago ... I have friends who've done really well with it!

It is my impression that ALL business bases its viability on attracting and appealing to young people and families. You see it across the board. I had a call the other day doing a survey on something (can't remember what). They asked to speak to someone between the ages of 35 and 63. I said okay, that's me. They asked me my age, I told them and they said "I'm sorry, we've already reached the quota for that age range". One wonders why they included my age range in the first place.

All advertising is geared to people under 55 (maybe even 50). If you're over that, you can forget it. I've seen this discussed time and time again on various talk shows.

But I have to tell you I don't get it. Not because I fall into the older age range, but because there are so many of us living a very long time. What used to be old is so much younger now. People are eating better, working out, continuing in the work force. We're part of society ... we're not wasting away in little apartments. We're cruising, flying, driving, staying at resorts. We're buying clothes and furniture ... not to mention toys and clothes for our grandchildlren. But "they" simply don't care.

I think it will change one day, but I'll probably be deep in my grave by then. JMHO:D

[Pudgesmom]

There are many interesting thoughts on this thread. I'd like to add mine, having cruised with my children both on HAL and Carnival. We have an upcoming cruise on Windstar. We like the quiet service on HAL, and no, we have never been served coffee on deck. (but it would be nice!)

My children are well-behaved, quiet, have excellent table manners, and hate organized children's programs. Mostly, these programs are bogus activities that I myself would find a waste of time. The only thing specifically for kids they are interested in is the new teen area on the SOE ships. This area would afford them a chance to mingle on their own time with their peers.

After our cruise in November on the Oosterdam without the kids, however, we have really lost interest in this product. If we came back, it would only be on one of the smaller ships with the SOE enhancements.

Additionally, families are an excellent source of revenue to the cruise line. We do not "cram" ourselves into one cabin. On our Alaska cruise on the Statendam, we booked an outside veranda for ourselves and an inside across the hall for the kids.

Lastly, I think a few HAL cruisers should take a look in the mirror before pointing fingers at fellow cruisers. We do not mind waiting for an older person to board a tender, elevator, or understand a confusing document at the desk. We are willing to talk a little louder, listen to interesting stories about past wars, and generally "tolerate";) older people. The world is made up of all shapes, sizes and ages, why can't shipboard life be varied as well?

JMO
Beth:rolleyes:

[ColoradoJen]

Just to chime in for us youngsters... I am in my late 20s and am very excited for my cruise this summer. The Carnival model doesn't appeal to me and I hope to never set foot on a Disney ship, as it is just not my style. We are bringing our 11-month old on our HAL cruise this summer and will never allow her to act inappropriately. If she starts making a scene or acting out, we will remove her from the dining room or showroom and take her back to our room. As she grows up, I hope to expose her to the more "refined atmosphere" as Mary above stated and hope she gains an appreciation for the atmosphere that HAL provides. I, as a mother of a young child, am absolutely annoyed when parents let their children disturb others and am choosing to cruise with HAL with the hope that I will not run into parents who act in such a manner. So, for all of you who can't stand the "crumb snatchers", please give us a chance and allow my little girl to prove how well behaved she is before you give us a dirty look when we board :)

[localady]

There are many interesting thoughts on this thread. I'd like to add mine, having cruised with my children both on HAL and Carnival. We have an upcoming cruise on Windstar. We like the quiet service on HAL, and no, we have never been served coffee on deck. (but it would be nice!)

My children are well-behaved, quiet, have excellent table manners, and hate organized children's programs. Mostly, these programs are bogus activities that I myself would find a waste of time. The only thing specifically for kids they are interested in is the new teen area on the SOE ships. This area would afford them a chance to mingle on their own time with their peers.

After our cruise in November on the Oosterdam without the kids, however, we have really lost interest in this product. If we came back, it would only be on one of the smaller ships with the SOE enhancements.

Additionally, families are an excellent source of revenue to the cruise line. We do not "cram" ourselves into one cabin. On our Alaska cruise on the Statendam, we booked an outside veranda for ourselves and an inside across the hall for the kids.

Lastly, I think a few HAL cruisers should take a look in the mirror before pointing fingers at fellow cruisers. We do not mind waiting for an older person to board a tender, elevator, or understand a confusing document at the desk. We are willing to talk a little louder, listen to interesting stories about past wars, and generally "tolerate";) older people. The world is made up of all shapes, sizes and ages, why can't shipboard life be varied as well?

JMO
Beth:rolleyes:

Beth-
Well said! We have reserved 2 cabins for our upcoming trip, and I have seen adults as well as families share cabins also. Unless the line presented a 2 room configuration, we will always cruise in 2 rooms.

[ryansmemom]

My husband and I sail Holland America because we enjoy the sedate, refined, elegant atmosphere onboard the ships. The only other line we have sailed is RCI and we prefer HAL because we enjoy the quieter atmosphere onboard. We like the product exactly the way it has been onboard the S and R class ships.

We are not interested in sailing on the Vista Class ships for several reasons. We prefer smaller ships. And decor does not appeal to us. I personally fear sensory overload just from the color pallette. i do not think we would feel comfortable on these ships. We cruise to relax and high energy cruises do not appeal to us.

As far as HAL's need to broaden their demographic, I can understand that they need to fill their berths. They have created this problem by building these monster ships. They are in business to make money. Several years ago my husband and I were on the Volendam. We were talking to the Future Cruise Consultant during the Suite dinner. This was right before the Zuiderdam was launched. He refered to the demographic that HAL was hoping to attract as "K-Mart cruisers". Before you start flaming me remember I am just quoting another person. I am not judging anyone I am just passing on information. I took this as shorthand for selling cabins at an inexpensive rate. Deeply discounting so that people who could not afford to go on cruises before would be able to afford a HAL cruise. I do not think he meant to demean people with the phrase. And I do believe that is what HAL has done on the Vista ships. However, if the price of the cruise is low, the money to pay for stuff has to come from somewhere. Unfortunatly, people who can't afford to pay a lot of money for their cabin, can't afford to pay a lot of money for on board expenses like shore excursions, alcoholic beverages, alternative dining options, etc. They also may have different expectations. There are more families.

I have said this before and been flamed heartily. I do not think one cruise line can be all things to all people. HAL has it's niche. It has appealed to people who want a more refined, quieter, sedate cruise experience, regardless of their age. People in my age group, I am 56 years old, still have a lot of cruising years ahead of us. My daughter and her family prefer this type of cruise. We have friends who are on a HAL cruise right now with their 5 year old who prefer this type of cruise. I know lots of people in their 30's with young families who take family vacations because they want to be with their families. They are not looking for organized activities for their children. They are planning on spending their time with their children.

I am not happy with the direction in which HAL seems to be headed. It's not that I want to deny anyone the cruise they want. I just want to be able to have the cruise I want.

Linda

[joramrose]

.

Lastly, I think a few HAL cruisers should take a look in the mirror before pointing fingers at fellow cruisers. We do not mind waiting for an older person to board a tender, elevator, or understand a confusing document at the desk. We are willing to talk a little louder, listen to interesting stories about past wars, and generally "tolerate";) older people. The world is made up of all shapes, sizes and ages, why can't shipboard life be varied as well?

JMO
Beth:rolleyes:

Darned if I want to be tolerated!!!!!

I don't mind waiting for younger people to check their makeup, do a little flirting, monopolize the dance floor or whatever. but I don't call it "tolerating."
I don't even mind kids, altho I prefer them to be well behaved kids.
But I don't call that "tolerating."

So don't tolerate me just because I am nearer my 80th birthday than my 79th. I don't ask you to keep up with me or to wait for me or to wait on me.

JMO
joan

[doone]

I agree as well. I love my nieces and nephews, sailing on a ship with 600 or 700 kids, NOT FOR ME. I like HAL with less than 100 kids onboard.

Friends of mine sailed for the first time a couple of years ago with us on the Volendam, they had an absolutely wonderful time. They have one son, who stayed home, it was a vacation for mom and dad. Her sister in law won a cruise for 8 onboard the Disney ship and invited them to go along with their son. They were so excited and couldn't wait to go. Just talked with them the other day, they had a great time but the first words out of their mouths was THANK GOD FOR HOLLAND AMERICA. We're planning a family cruise, yes, the kids will be coming along, for February school vacation week 2006. My friends and their son will be joining us and now they really can't wait.

[lipoppop]

On my last cruise I spoke to some senior members of the staff and they said that the next ships HAL builds will be in between the S class and Vista class in size. If that is true HAL is not joining the "bigger is better" craze. (I hope)

[jimmy2x]

I had a related conversation with a HAL rep on the phone the other night. Many of us on the leading edge of the Boomer generation grew up listening to Presley, the Beatles, Smokey Robinson, and the Stones. Most of us have learned that we can't pretend to be twenty-something forever and our tastes change as we grow older. We are far more likely to want to hear the standards (Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, etc.), jazz or classical than try to revisit our "miss-spent youth";).

Those of us that are still in the "party-hearty" mode have many choices to do just that. The rest of us seem to look for good service, decent food, and a relaxed (dare I say "classy") cruise experience that provides a chance to re-connect with each other.

I believe that the eternal search for the younger market is miss-guided and self-defeating. Youthful cruisers will grow older, and like us, their views will change. I suspect that Carnival is an outstanding product for the younger crowd, but that in general its appeal for those past fifty is limited.

What we perceive as necessary to having "fun" changes as we mature. I believe that this will be as true thirty years from now as it is today.

[dakrewser]

If HAL could fill their ships with singles and couples, they would. Saves on Club HAL activities, etc. But it seems fairly obvious that they can't. So they begin to appeal to a younfer demographic. That doesn't mean the atmosphere becomes Carnival-like, just that the passenger mix is somewhat different.


It might also be that as cruising in general has attracted a younger crowd and become an alternative for families that these people look for the solidly middle-class values of HAL. It may be that older, higher end HAL cruisers have moved on to Crystal or Seabourn (which are not considered "family friendly" and, boy, do I hate that phrase!).

[HeatherInFlorida]

Darned if I want to be tolerated!!!!!

I don't mind waiting for younger people to check their makeup, do a little flirting, monopolize the dance floor or whatever. but I don't call it "tolerating."
I don't even mind kids, altho I prefer them to be well behaved kids.
But I don't call that "tolerating."

So don't tolerate me just because I am nearer my 80th birthday than my 79th. I don't ask you to keep up with me or to wait for me or to wait on me.

JMO
joan

Joan, she was kidding!:) That's why she put "tolerated" in quotes and put the little "wink" smiley next to it. Trust me, I know PudgesMom and she didn't mean it the way you think. She's 95 if she's a day;) .............kidding, Beth!!!!

[Pudgesmom]

Joan-

I'm sorry if I offended you. Heather is right, my tongue was in cheek.:)

I guess the point I was unsuccessfully trying to make was that I enjoy a cruise full of all sorts of people, each of whom might have something to add to my experience. I think variety is the spice of life. Although you may be spry, not all seniors are, but at least most are polite.:rolleyes: OOps, there I go again. So, if children on board mean a little more excitement and movement, so be it, I say. I'll "tolerate" that, too.

On our last Oosterdam cruise, I spent a delightful 10 minutes watching a father and his 3 year old roll with the high seas the ship was experiencing. They were having a wonderful time, and I was, too.

Race you to the midnight buffet?:)
Beth

[Roz]

I've just come back to my thread. Thanks for all your replies. They were interesting to read and ponder. HAL corporate, are you listening?

Roz

[Orcrone]

Prior to the Vista class ships HAL sailed with ships that held from 1200 - 1400 passengers. Although not large by today's standards the Vista class ships hold over 1800 passengers. That's a lot more passenger berths to fill, that may not have been filled to the extent planned.

In my limited experience I found that HAL cruises (at least in the Caribbean) are less expensive than many other cruise lines, perhaps because of the new capacity. I still look at prices and availability for my upcoming cruise, and it seems that there is also a lot more availability on the Zuiderdam than on the RCI and Celebrity ships. What that tells me is that HAL is not filling up their ships as readily as some other cruise lines. They can either try to increase the number of passengers by appealing to more people of the same demographic, or try to reach a new demographic.

I read recently that over half of last year's cruisers were first time cruisers. Some people (although I expect not a large amount) may leave HAL because of their new marketing direction. But I tend to think that they'll more than make that up in tapping into new demographics.

This may not be a decision that HAL loyalists would applaud, but it will probably fill more cabins on their ships.

[the2ofus]

Just a couple of random thoughts:

If you haven't yet cruised on a Vista Class ship, please don't pre-judge. You just might find that you like them. You might find some of the spaces unfamiliar and some of the decor a bit quirky, but you also will find the same smiling friendly service, roomy accomodations and interesting activities that you found on the smaller ships. You also might find some things that you actually like better than the S-class. We sailed on the W-dam with an open mind and found we loved it, just as we do the S-class and larger ones.

And, you will still find the wonderful, uncrowded outside upper deck spaces and the lower promenade. No other line can match those, IMHO.

Speaking of K-Mart cruisers, I prefer to use the term value-conscious cruisers. When you look at the price per day and what is included in that price, HAL still beats most of the other popular cruise lines, most of the time.

As for pax that don't appeal to us, we do the same as on land. Don't prejudge until you have a chance to make acquaintance. Just ignore or avoid, if you find you do not enjoy their company. If they insist on infringing on our enjoyment, either remove ourselves or confront, depending on the situation.
Life is too short and too precious to allow other people to take over.

We'd consider another cruise line if the price and itinerary are right, but HAL is a tough product to beat.