Just off Zuiderdam 12/30/04 - 1/8/05 "Ship of Fools"

[DoctorFeelgood]

I have a lot that is positive to say about this cruise, particularly the wonderful staff and great food. My "S" suite #5186 was also very nice. I will be preparing a complete review.


However... I do have to say that, without any exaggeration or reservations on my part, this ship was filled with the worst passengers of any cruise I have ever been on. I could generalize about their origins ("Boca West, dearie!..." could often be heard) but that might lead to unnecessary flaming.

Still, it should be said that this ship was filled with the rudest pax I have ever encountered. They were unkind and ungrateful to the crew and their fellow pax. My party sought refuge in our suite and its wonderful balcony, and spent as little time mingling as possible. Yes, there were some nice passengers on board, but they were overwhelmed by boors. Even the crew, who are usually quite stoic, were commenting on how glad they were to see the end of this cruise.

For example:
1) Several groups of "seasoned citizen" women choosing to eat lunch in the Lido (i.e. BUFFET) restaurant, and telling the staff.... yes... telling, NOT asking... as in "get me a salad".. no "please"... no "thank you"... to serve them lunch. This happened on a daily basis. In addition, the entire ship seemed to be filled with passengers who felt that manners and etiquette were for people less than the age of 60.

2) Groups fighting over tables in the Lido.

3) Pushing and shoving in lines.

4) Trashing their travel companions behind their backs.

5) Complaining, complaining, complaining.... I began to think that someone had spread a rumor that if you complained to the concierge enough you would get a free cruise. One lady was screaming at the concerige because the lady had put her black pantyhose in the laundry and they came back with a run in them. Another was yelling because she put a garment that said "hand wash only" in the laundry and it came back shrunk. (Hell, I'm a GUY and even I know that you don't put delicate girly things in a washing machine... that's what the bathroom sink and that little drying line in the shower is for.) One man came in to state that his wife had been "locked in a bathroom on the Lido deck" for hours. Yet when he was asked which bathroom and which stall, he could not give any details. (This guy would come in several times a day with a new complaint of some sort.... all equally bizarre). Many, MANY passengers whined about bug spray not being available in the gift shop, when it was "absolutely required" for shore excursions in Honduras and Guatemala. (I mean, besides STATING that bug repellant is required in the PRE-CRUISE excursion document.... what more can HAL do???)

6) The passengers in 7015 who simply refused "until we are good and ready" to clear immigration in Key West, making the entire boatload of passengers wait until 10:30 a.m. to leave the ship.

7) The elderly man giving himself a sponge-bath while standing stark naked at the sink in the men's room by the Lido restaurant. (I kid you not! He told me I'd have to find another sink to wash my hands as he was "sponging".... ewwwwww!!!!)

Believe it or not I could go on...


Thanks to the crew for putting up with this crap and still making my vacation enjoyable.

[Whiskeyman]

Don't stop there, you left me wondering what was going to happen next.
I'm sorry to read that you had to be around people like that, but what you wrote was really surprising to me, I can't believe in this day and age people act like complete and ignorant asses to others. I wonder too if they removed the auto tip...probably.
Thanks for posting and I really would like to hear (read) more if you have the time.
What did you think of your room?
How was the Lido food?
Did you eat at the pinnicale?
Do any excursions?

Thanks for your review, look forward to reading more,
Whiskeyman

[MandyGirl]

no "please"... no "thank you"...

My husband and I noticed a lot of that as well from several passengers on our Thanksgiving Zuiderdam cruise. Being ages 30/32 it wasn't *that* long ago our parents were raising us with good manners, but these were adults that looked older than us not being polite to others around them. Each time we are brought a plate or have a water glass refilled while eating, we look the waiter in the eye and say "thank you" - no matter if it's on a cruise or eating the $3.95 Chinese lunch special we had yesterday. I am now in the practice of when holding the door open for someone and they don't say "thank you" I go ahead and say "you're welcome" anyway after they've stepped through the door, hoping they get the hint that a simple "thank you" when someone does a kind act isn't going to kill them. Anyone can practice good manners regardless of which income or age bracket they come from. (Just my personal opinion)

[peaches from georgia]

I don't know about Sponge-Bath Bob, but the rest of them must cruise yearly. They were definetely on the Oosterdam last December. Do I see a trend developing?

[bstokes631]

As our favorite pastime gets more popular and affordable, I have been seeing this trend as well.

Could be worse though, we could not have the chance to see them bu NOT cruising. Now THAT's depressing!

[Kabana]

you are nicer than I am, I would have reminded sponge bath Bob (or Betty in my case) that there is a bathroom in his cabin for a reason ;)

Seriously is sounds like the week after the holidays is not a popular time for cruising so it attracts those who book at the last minute for a good deal with misconceptions on what to expect from the experience.

[ryansmemom]

I don't know about Sponge-Bath Bob, but the rest of them must cruise yearly. They were definetely on the Oosterdam last December. Do I see a trend developing?

Unfortunatly, we have been noticing the same thing. I agree Peaches, there does seem to be a trend. I think basic civility and manners are on the decline everywhere and we see this on our beloved cruise ships.

Linda

[ryansmemom]

As our favorite pastime gets more popular and affordable, I have been seeing this trend as well.

Could be worse though, we could not have the chance to see them bu NOT cruising. Now THAT's depressing!

That is part of it, however poor manners are not confined to any particular socio-economic group. There are plenty of uncivil rich people out there who do not have any manners. I have seen my share of people living in suites, abusing the concierge. It is possible to have money and still not have any class and to be as poor as a church mouse and have lot's of it.

Linda

[S.S.Oceanlover]

I sure hope the crowd in July is a tad younger with some kids so that the rude people who don't like kiddies stay home.
People like that make me cringe.

Mandy,
My wife does the same thing when holding a door, rather loudly I may add. ;)

Bill

[viennacruiser]

Doctorfeelgood,
That sounds terrible, but I am interested in what you thought of your "S" we are booked in it in March??:D
Do you have any pictures?:D
I was on a cruise last summer and a women was changing in the Bathroom out of the skirt she bought from the ships shop and wore with the tags on and tucked under,:eek: she took it off and put it back in the bag to return to the shops!!:rolleyes:

[S.S.Oceanlover]

some is this stuff has to be true. takes a lot of imagination to make this stuff up. Sure makes me wonder if some of the people were raised by wolves. :rolleyes:

Bill

[damcruiser]

Ever since Dumb & Dumber movies there has been a dumbing down in speech, in manners, and in dress..

And people flock to these movies laughing at everyone being rude and crude....

Now they're cruising..

DoctorFeelgood... Write a script, Hollywood thinks it's funny:eek:

[lyndamr]

Drfeelgood, Would you happen to live in Long Island and have a daughter named Heidi? I knew somebody from work with this nickname, its not a very popular one, just curious. :)

[ryansmemom]

Ever since Dumb & Dumber movies there has been a dumbing down in speech, in manners, and in dress..

And people flock to these movies laughing at everyone being rude and crude....

Now they're cruising..

DoctorFeelgood... Write a script, Hollywood thinks it's funny:eek:


They are not only cruising, they are everywhere. Crude and rude seem to be very "in". Society seems to be "dumbing down." There is a reverse snobbism. If you have good manners and speak well and care about standards you are looked down upon. It's a world turned upside down. We used to talk about this endlessly on this board. Many of us who were alarmed by the trend of growing rudeness and crudeness were flamed mercilessly and called all sorts of horrible names.

Hopefully, most of us still teach our children manners and civil behavior. It is frightening to see our culture devolve around us. I don't have any answers, except to say that I have been around long enough to see that there are cycles in life and hope that we have reached the bottom and society will cycle back up and things will get better.

I think the "Dumb and Dumber" reference is perfect. Perhaps Hollywood can give us a better role model and that will help.

Linda

[OCruisers]

DrFeelGood .... Too funny! At least you can laugh about it! :cool:

:rolleyes: Do you ever "just wonder" why some folks act the way they do? :confused:

Happy Sailing! OCruisers :)

[dakrewser]

While I do endorse the thought that general civility seems to be in freefall decline, we should note that the ancient Greeks and Romans wrote on the decline of civility in their societies (although it was usually the younger generation that got blamed).

[Esme]

You know how the stewards line up the lounge chairs on the aft deck facing the bow ..... well they left an aisle by the pool and another down the middle. Last day on board ship (a few weeks ago) this bimbo proceeds to line up about 3 lounges facing the stern thereby blocking the centre aisle. I got up out of my lounge, climbed over a couple of people and then was stuck. Asked the bimbo to please move her chair as she was blocking the aisle and she said "I was here yesterday and I'll do what I want". She was the same one I saw pouring vodka form a very large bottle of Smirnoff's into glasses of juice and then passing them to her under-age kids. :eek: Jeez - what a B***h.

Funny, but I also say "Your Welcome" when I open a door to walk through and some idiot pushes past me and doesn't say "Thank You".

Whatever happened to manner.!

[ryansmemom]

While I do endorse the thought that general civility seems to be in freefall decline, we should note that the ancient Greeks and Romans wrote on the decline of civility in their societies (although it was usually the younger generation that got blamed).


Yes, Dave. That is exactly my point. I am well aware of the Greeks and Romans. That is why I used a cyclical model rather than a freefall decline model. I am trying to remain optimistic regarding our modern civilization. However, where are the Greek and Roman civilzations now?

Linda

[HeatherInFlorida]

I believe every word you said because they were all on the Millennium in Dec. 03 and a friend tells me they were also on the Caribbean Princess this December. So they are everywhere.

Understand that we're not kids, as in we are "young seniors";) . So I hate it when a group of people give the rest of us a bad name. For every lousy passenger I've ever met on a cruise, I've met an equally terrific one. And I can't say that I've only encountered old rude people. There are just as many young ones.

Unfortunately when you put 2000-3000 people in a confined space, it's going to be all the more obvious. But they don't restrict themselves to cruiseships ... they're in every restaurant. And they're not confined to South Florida, btw ... don't forget where the South Florida people lived before they got here!!! Trust me, they weren't born here.

I hate to say it because it shows my age, but only this morning I said to DH the trouble started when the world started cruising...when they made cruising "user-friendly". When we first cruised in the early 80's it was considered very chic. No one we knew cruised and it was considered very mysterious. Everyone asked us almost in whispers what it was all about.

There are great benefits and improvements to today's cruise experience, but there are also huge drawbacks. One of those is you have to know when to cruise and I have learned that Thanksgiving through the New Year's holidays isn't one of them.

[damcruiser]

While I do endorse the thought that general civility seems to be in freefall decline, we should note that the ancient Greeks and Romans wrote on the decline of civility in their societies (although it was usually the younger generation that got blamed).

And look what happened to them...:eek:

and then the barbarians really took over..

[Sage]

Brava Linda and Heather. I have found the same thing on our cruises, and we have even thought of moving to other cruise lines, but why should we be run off of ships that we like? Perhaps we are at the end of that rude cycle that Linda spoke of; one can hope.

[ekerr19]

Our "ship of fools" sailing was on the Zui... the people in the Suite next to us locked their kids out on the balcony (on more than one occassion), for whatever reason - until they screamed their heads off, it was just horrendous.

The folks on the other side had a little deliquent running up and down the halls screaming at his sister and swearing - when I asked him to stop, he told me to "*$^&%@# mind my own business!" When I talked to his Dad, his Dad's reply, "Oh, I don't believe it - he's such a good boy", which pretty much sums up some peoples response to their childrens ill behavior. No wonder they act like that - they get away with it.

Grown women fighting over a cabana at HMC - I thought the poor concierge was going to faint.

This was also the voyage where the underage drinking teen tried to trip DH in the stairwell, then proceeded to try and fight him.

We couldn't wait to get off that ship. It's a shame too, we looked forward to our first Vista class cruise and it left a very negative impression on us.

[jhannah]

Absolutely incredible! Society as a whole has dumbed itself down for a long time. Everything from expecting our language to be spoken properly to the reduction of standards in academic achievement testing because "some groups" don't do well enough. (I'll stop here before I get myself in trouble!)

But the cruise lines have a hand in this, too. How many times have we seen (and discussed here) where they don't enforce dress requrements in the dining room, thus enforcing gravitation toward the lowest common denominator? Or where they refuse to get involved with remedies for some children's/adults' atrocious behavior?

[PaulaJK]

with these posts, expecially Vegas Jim.
Any passengers the line would 'lose' by
enforcing dress codes,kid rules and
general behavior codes would still be in
the positive as so many others would flock
to that line. One doesn't need stuffy or
snotty.....just civil and decently attired....
similar to what you find in a better restaurant
or hotel. I blame the cruise lines for not
enforcing dress codes. I can't even believe that
the health code would support people going thru
Lido line w. barefeet.

It's awful that those parents locked their children
on the verandah! I thought that the kids on the
recent Oosterdam cruise were pretty good. We weren't
up late at night, so didn't run into drunken anybodies...
did see a lot of sleeping bodies in deck chairs on 1/1/05!

[Arubalisa]

I can very easily believe this after a boy was smacked by an old woman with a cane on our recent cruise. They were fighting over a last piece of cake at the Lido.

Fortunately everyone else on the ship was very well behaved. Well with the exception of the 10 kids jumping, splashing and screaming in the Lido pool who my 8 year old declared, "were not behaving very well".

She decided she wanted to go swim in the Aft pool for some much sought after quiet and relaxation :D

[Kelfly]

DrFeelGood:
Please post a detailed review of your cruise and the cabin! We just booked 5187 for early December 2005 and I can't wait to hear all about it. Thanks in advance!

[SANDY BEACH]

HeatherInFlorida, Please share what you feel are the best months for cruising for total relaxation. I'm sure we should stay away from holidays, spring breaks and summer vacations. However, the last cruise I was on in July was not bad at all. Everyone seemed rather well behaved. Our next cruise is in Feb. Shouldn't be too many kids but then the kids are not always the problem as read in these last few posts. Not quite sure how to avoid the senior maniacs. I think possibly we should not travel during a full moon even though it is quite romantic. Glad I will have a balcony, just in case I need it.

[elmorejj]

I guess this must be the reason I spend more and more time in my cabin or on the veranda reading these days!!....jean :cool:

[Pudgesmom]

While I agree poor manners are never acceptable, the cruise line adds to the stress of travelers by overcrowding, overbooking and overpromising. Have you ever been served coffee by a white-gloved waiter on the deck? That's the brochure picture.

How about waiting almost 2 hours to board a tender for the "private" island? This was my experience. How about standing with a group of 22 people in front of the last clamshell on the beach of said private island, all of whom had prebooked (and prepaid) for a clamshell? Also happened, and not at holiday time.

I guess we're getting what we pay for, I just wish it were more peaceful. I too, spent much of my last cruise - enjoyably - reading on my own balcony.

Beth

[HeatherInFlorida]

Jim, I wholeheartedly agree, support and stand with you in what you say. And you were most delicate:) .

Sandy Beach, we have found mid October up until Thanksgiving week to be an ideal time to cruise. The risk of hurricanes has diminished quite a bit by then (August/September being the absolute worst months for that). Personally, we prefer not to cruise with a ton of kids not because we don't like kids, but because in massive numbers, no matter how well behaved they may or may not be, they do kind of take over. So we cruise when they're in school. There are still children, but fewer, and therefore generally well behaved and no problem. In fact, I get a kick out of those I run into. This last cruise there was a kid going up and down on the elevator and when I got on I told him he should say "Floors, please" as people get on and they might tip him. The next time I got on the elevator, there he was and said "Floor please!" I cracked up!

We always used to cruise in summer months because back then it was cheaper (children rarely cruised because there was nothing for them to do;) ).

As for us elders, how can you avoid us? I don't know, but I have read several times that a lot of the real old folks (much older than I am) take advantage of last minute bookings during the holiday season. And from what I've experienced myself and read here, I'd say that's true. There are always going to be seniors, but I think the real problems lie in huge groups.

[kruzkeen]

7) The elderly man giving himself a sponge-bath while standing stark naked at the sink in the men's room by the Lido restaurant. (I kid you not! He told me I'd have to find another sink to wash my hands as he was "sponging".... ewwwwww!!!!)

If I ever encountered a stark naked man in one of the men's rooms, I would contact security on one of the house phones. If in the Lido I would inform the first uniformed person I saw and he did not move quickly I would go to the front desk and be quite vocal.

It is difficult to know how to cope with bad manners. I do think that the ship has to deal with naked people in public places.

[DoctorFeelgood]

you are nicer than I am, I would have reminded sponge bath Bob (or Betty in my case) that there is a bathroom in his cabin for a reason ;)

Seriously is sounds like the week after the holidays is not a popular time for cruising so it attracts those who book at the last minute for a good deal with misconceptions on what to expect from the experience.

I was too shocked to come up with anything. I turned around and left as fast as I could.

[DoctorFeelgood]

Drfeelgood, Would you happen to live in Long Island and have a daughter named Heidi? I knew somebody from work with this nickname, its not a very popular one, just curious. :)

Lynda,

Nope. No Long Island, no Heidi. Sorry!

[Cruiseoften]

Funny, but I also say "Your Welcome" when I open a door to walk through and some idiot pushes past me and doesn't say "Thank You".

I'm practising sticking my foot out as the boor goes by! :rolleyes: "Oh, did you fall!"

[ekerr19]

IMO, it is not "the old people", but the young families who are so indulgent with their kids that are the problem...

When I complained to the guy next door on our Zui cruise about his son's swearing he explained to me how he was a very "high profile" developer in the FLL area who happened to own his own home that "he had designed" and that anyone from Colorado (such as we) were true "hicks" (like we don't own our homes here... ) blah, blah, blah - and how we could never be as good as he was. YUCK!

Well, he was a jerk. I would not want to be him - nor ever aspire to be - this guy was about 35 yrs old acting like a 10-yr. old! ... so let's not blame things on the "older - retired" folks. :)

[Vic The Parrot]

This kinda sounds like my cruise........


Vile, unfriendly pax ... obnoxious teenagers .... drunken trash
We were on the same ship, but in parallel universes.

[Renorita]

IMO, it is not "the old people", but the young families who are so indulgent with their kids that are the problem...

When I complained to the guy next door on our Zui cruise about his son's swearing he explained to me how he was a very "high profile" developer in the FLL area who happened to own his own home that "he had designed" and that anyone from Colorado (such as we) were true "hicks" (like we don't own our homes here... ) blah, blah, blah - and how we could never be as good as he was. YUCK!

Well, he was a jerk. I would not want to be him - nor ever aspire to be - this guy was about 35 yrs old acting like a 10-yr. old! ... so let's not blame things on the "older - retired" folks. :)

I think the bottom line is that no matter what the age, whether it is the "older - retired folks", or the Younger families, middle age (whatever that is) or the kids, there are some in every group that are rude, obnoxious, arrogant, demeaning, and even some that are just plain idiots. Also in those same groups, there are very nice, polite, fun, interesting people that you enjoy meeting on a cruise. It seems if someone has a bad experience with "old people" then its THAT group that are the troublemakers. And so on through the rest of the groups I mentioned. No one is going to like everyone and not everyone is going to fit into our individual ideas of what a good cruise passinger is like.

Now if everyone was like my DH and myself, there would be no need for any complaints in this area! :D

[TYMAN]

This thread is not about opinions it is about facts. The fact is, a group of "seasoned citizens" made this cruise a vacation that was not as enjoyable as it should have been. I don't believe he mentioned unruly kids. Let's give the kids a break this time.

[HeatherInFlorida]

This thread is not about opinions it is about facts. The fact is, a group of "seasoned citizens" made this cruise a vacation that was not as enjoyable as it should have been. I don't believe he mentioned unruly kids. Let's give the kids a break this time.

Excuse me, Tyman, but the thread gave way to the fact that there are unruly and rude people of all ages. Often these subjects take on a life of their own. In this instance the OP was talking about OLD (I take exception to the word "seasoned" ... wait'll you're here ... call us "old" and be done with it) and others merely made mention of the fact that sometimes the issue is with kids and SOMETIMES (believe it or not) with "middle aged" (40 to 60).

I honestly can't understand why you would take issue with that.

Renorita, very well said!!! And I join you in your last line:D . We are, of course, the exception and not the rule;) !

[TYMAN]

Heather, you're excused. It sure didn't take long for you to grab the bait. Oh, by the way, I'm "seasoned" also. I just like to stick to the subject at hand not end up the way all these "unruly" guest threads go. Nothing new here...

[DoctorFeelgood]

The reason that I mentioned old folks is that they made up the vast majority of the passengers. There were probably fewer than 10 school-age kids, and a handful of highschoolers and preschoolers.

As a group the "old folks" were far older on average than any other cruise I have been on. Also, they seemed much more frail than any other cruise I have been on... based on the number of scooters, walkers, wheelchairs, and canes. Furthermore, a small number of them appeared somewheat mildly demented (although I didn't do any clinical, objective evaluation of this). This was easily the most elderly group of passengers that I have sailed with.

There was one ca. 10 year old boy who was a bit of a nuisance at times. For example, he was playing with the ketchup dispenser and using it to fill up the little condiment bowls. He was scolded by one of the staff and ran to his parents yelling "papa! papa!".

None of the younger or older kids made any problems that I was aware of, but this does not mean it didn't happen. And, as I said before, two of my observations in the original post concerned passengers in their 30's to 40's (that would be the bizzarre complainer and the rock stealer).

I guess that based on the percentage of misbehavers in each age group, no particular age came out as being the worst.

Incidentally, a crewmember who shall remain nameless stated that the best way to avoid this type of situation is to avoid sailing out of Fort Lauderdale. When I asked why that would be, they stated that the families with a lot of children and the frail elderly avoid air travel, so it is better to book a cruise that requires some kind of air travel, such as out of Puerto Rico.

But please don't turn my OP into an age thing. It's not really to do with age, it is just a plea for common sense, mutual respect, and everyday manners.

[Himself]

The guy taking the sponge bath---too much. Showing his shortcomings.

[Georgetown Mike]

Rude passengers are not unique to HAL. We were on the Star Princess in mid December and suffered similar experiences. But - still a great cruise. We were on the Zuiderdam last June and enjoyed it immensly. Question: What is the definition of "fully stocked no host minibars" in HAL suites?

[HeatherInFlorida]

..............
Incidentally, a crewmember who shall remain nameless stated that the best way to avoid this type of situation is to avoid sailing out of Fort Lauderdale. When I asked why that would be, they stated that the families with a lot of children and the frail elderly avoid air travel, so it is better to book a cruise that requires some kind of air travel, such as out of Puerto Rico...................

You don't know how funny this is:D Check out some of the threads about cruises sailing out of Puerto Rico recently! I can't tell you how many people are saying they'll never sail out of PR again.

Which proves the point ... you can't isolate these problems to any age group, demographic and certainly not an embarkation point. A crewmember suggesting you shouldn't sail out of Ft. Lauderdale is ludicrous! Does he/she think all the people getting on are from Florida? Just review these threads to see all the folks flying into FLL to board the ships. It's just plain silly.

Dr Feelgood, I don't think anyone was fighting here. We were just saying that you cannot eliminate any group of people as a problem. Your group was more elderly, another's might be kids, another's might be some drunken bunch from who knows where. There's no rule to follow. In the end, it's really just the luck of the draw.

[TYMAN]

I agree with you Doc....my only point was that since this thread was about the folks you met on a cruise, let's kinda have fun with that. I'm sure there's lots of other threads that involve kids/teens/middle age/elder population headaches.

[peaches from georgia]

Question: What is the definition of "fully stocked no host minibars" in HAL suites?
The minibars have a wide selection of mini-bottles of various liquors, cans of mixers, fruit juices and beer, bottles of water, and various snacks. The wine stewards check everyday what has been used and consumed and you are charged. There is no 'host' who is providing you with these items free of charge. :rolleyes:

[damcruiser]

Incidentally, a crewmember who shall remain nameless stated that the best way to avoid this type of situation is to avoid sailing out of Fort Lauderdale. When I asked why that would be, they stated that the families with a lot of children and the frail elderly avoid air travel, so it is better to book a cruise that requires some kind of air travel, such as out of Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rico is the NOGO port for us. We were on a B2B Horizon sailing Baltimore-Puerto Rico-Ft Lauderdale. What a difference.. It's the only time (leg 2) we were on a cruise with LOUD passengers and LOUDER children. We have cruised out of FLL over 20 times and never a problem... (1) trips are now at least 10 days. (2) we have sailed Thanksgiving without any problems but never during spring break or during the winter/summer holidays.

[dakrewser]

IMO, it is not "the old people", but the young families who are so indulgent with their kids that are the problem...

When I complained to the guy next door on our Zui cruise about his son's swearing he explained to me how he was a very "high profile" developer in the FLL


It's them Floridians, of all ages! :rolleyes:

-dave

[bookworm0911]

It has nothing to do with age, hometown, cabin location, or any of that. It's the "it's my cruise and I'll do what I 'dam well please" crowd. There is no respect for fellow pax or for the cruiseline and its traditions. :mad:

[Lisa616]

Oh please. A bunch of disgruntled malcontents want to disrupt everyone else's enjoyment and, not only do I have to put up with them but I must try to find their bright side?

It isn't their bright side I'm going to look for, but the side where the sun don't shine so I can direct my boot to it.

I think that might of just been the best response I've read on this board!

[Deals147]

Dave....gotta love that! That's the bright side I'm looking for!

[Renorita]

Rude passengers are not unique to HAL. We were on the Star Princess in mid December and suffered similar experiences. But - still a great cruise. We were on the Zuiderdam last June and enjoyed it immensly. Question: What is the definition of "fully stocked no host minibars" in HAL suites?

OMG Mike, I saw some rude people on RCCI and Carnival as well as Princess. It must be contagious! :D All Kidding aside, I guess we have been pretty lucky, as we have been able to "ignore the boar" (sp.?) and side-step most situations. I still try to imagine what I would have done if I had seen a old naked man in the men's bathroom. Being a Psych nurse, I am sure I would have said something like, "Oh you just won first prize in the floral contest for the "best dried up arrangement"! :eek: Yes, I have accidently walked into the men's room by mistake before, so it is not an impossible situation. :o

[HeatherInFlorida]

Excuse me, Heather, but rather than taking such exception to Tyman's observation on the path this thread is heading.
(Weve all seen it before...The typical turn towards the "what the world 'owes'
us a seniors is a nice quiet ship without poor mannered children)
You should excercise a little practice what you preach sister!
I believe most of the thread should be focused on tolerance and how to look for the best in people, places and situations...
rather than the same old "South Florida" story....let me educate you about us rare "born and raised" Florida folks.
Having had the exclusive ability to be one of the few true born Floridians, I can personally attest to the attitude in South Florida.
Try to work in a service industry in South Florida, particularly on the west coast, they will eat you alive - after they have finished with their children.
Believe me, people like you are no exception there!
I think the Tyman was just trying to settle you old fogies down a bit and try to get you accept the things that you really can't change.
Instead of driving everyone around you crazy with the never-ending complaints.
Maybe, one day...all of us 'kids' and our children will be able to book a cruise that limits it's guests to no public complaints.
Now that would be one fun time!

Deals, in your evidently short time on these boards you've managed to do something no one else has. I don't understand a word you said.

I do gather that you think I'm complaining. I'm not, I didn't. I said that no matter who you are ... old or young, Floridian or New Yorker, European or Canadian, et al ... you're going to find someone on a cruiseship who's going to annoy you in one way or another.

No one gets to decide where a thread goes. They take on a life of their own. There was no argument on this thread and I tried to point that out. Everyone was just giving their own version of their own "Ship of Fools". No one is going to agree on what that might be.

In the course of human events, people are going to complain. If that upsets you as you say, then I honestly don't think the CC boards are going to be a place you enjoy visiting.

[Oceanwench]

Talk about being intolerant!!!

Deals, you extolled the virtue of tolerance in a previous post in this thread ... but you are showing a lack thereof.

As a transplanted Northerner living in the Sunshine State, I've not come across many native Floridians.
But if you're all for leaving the state to the natives, I guess we'll all have to leave it ... to the various American Indian tribes.

Peace.

[HeatherInFlorida]

You tell 'em, Ocean:) . I decided not to reply further. It obviously fell on deaf ears so I gave up.

[HeatherInFlorida]

You tell 'em, Ocean:) . I decided not to reply further. It obviously fell on deaf ears so I gave up. I'm going to leave this thread to people far more capable than I:o .

[Renorita]

With all the dissention on this thread, my last post got totally ignored! :( And I was trying so hard to lighten up this discussion! Which discussions could be more meaningful and informative, and less demeaning.

[TYMAN]

RENORITA....I didn't ignore it, I'm still laughing! Thanks for the great attitude!

[watchdiva]

Why is it that so many HAL threads start out funny and informative and a pleasure to read, only to descend into silly snits between posters? I celebrate the differences in opinion we all have but it's getting to the point where I don't even bother to read the boards daily (my practice when I booked my first HAL cruise last October) since the sniping in many threads just gets to be too much.

I truly do not understand............

[Oceanwench]

On every message board I've ever participated in -- save one -- there is inevitably one or two hot-button items that cause these tiffs.
I've been a member on a music-related message board since 1999 and I've seen this type of thing go in cycles ...
Sometimes the most innocuous post leads to fighting throughout the thread.
One person sets off another, then defenders of each step forward with their 2 cents.

The one board I've been on that does not have this problem has very strict controls on what can be said -- and the minute there is any fighting, the posts are deleted!

It's just human nature - many people don't tolerate another's point of view!

[Giorgi-one]

I have to agree that, in general, LOW PRICES EQUALS LOW CLASS. Please note that I am not rich and I love the low prices. I just got my copy of Conde Naste Traveler which lists the top resorts in the world. Many of these charge over $500 per night. Can you imagine someone in any of these resorts doing any of the things described in this post? I rest my case.

[ekerr19]

Why is it that so many HAL threads start out funny and informative and a pleasure to read, only to descend into silly snits between posters? I celebrate the differences in opinion we all have but it's getting to the point where I don't even bother to read the boards daily (my practice when I booked my first HAL cruise last October) since the sniping in many threads just gets to be too much.

I truly do not understand............

Because people like Deals147 take pot shots at other posters. Talk about "practicing what you preach, sister!" (Deals147 quote, not mine ;) )

Deals - we've all cruised with enough unruly kids to know they DO exist - along with the parents that choose to ignore their offensive behavior. If you have spent any time on this board you will know that there are many of us who cruise with our kids and support good cruise etiquette for children.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Thank you, ekerr:) . In answer to Watchdiva, I also want to point out that there are people on these boards who love to go on threads and shake things up. They say stuff they know will get others upset like the quote Ekerr mentioned. It's a little hard not to defend yourself when people do that.

This thread was not argumentative until that happened. It was just an exchange of experiences folks had had with a number of different types of unruly passengers.

Georgi, while you may be partically right in what you say ... having a ton of money to spend does not necessarily mean you have good manners. In fact, I know a number of people who expect that simply because they are disgustingly wealthy they have the right to be obnoxious. We've stayed at some pretty high end resorts over the years and I've seen people treat other human beings in ways you would not believe.

[ekerr19]

Heather-

I agree! This post did not have to become argumentative - and I still can't fathom why it did... I posted about my own experience with the "ship of fools", but it had nothing to do with anyone in the elder (or retired) population... my parents (in their 80's) are some of the nicest, down-to-earth people you'll meet... my problem on HAL has been those in my OWN generation (and younger), who think they are just "it" - AND have obnoxious, spoiled kids.

To all -

Dr.FeelGood posted about "ship of fools" - we've all (unfortunately) experienced our personal "ship of fools"... what bothers me is the personalization of the derogatory remarks by some posters - no one was being specific enough to garner the wrath of anyone...

[dakrewser]

To all -

Dr.FeelGood posted about "ship of fools" - we've all (unfortunately) experienced our personal "ship of fools"... what bothers me is the personalization of the derogatory remarks by some posters - no one was being specific enough to garner the wrath of anyone...

Some people insist on taking every post personally, as if it was meant specifically to criticize them. They then react (and respond) "in kind" (it seems), with a personal attack.

Now I'm not one to avoid a good argument (really, I'm not! :rolleyes: ) but I do find it best to avoid (and ignore, as much as possible) the personal attacks and concentrate on the facts of the discussion.

If only more people were like me (and, of course, like you, Laura! :) ).

My DW just said that if more people were like me that the world would be a much smaller place. Much more argumentative, but smaller - as we blasted pieces of it away!

:o -dave

[ekerr19]

dave-

I agree with you :D - but when I read the unwarranted attack on Heather, it just ticked me off and left me cold about the boards. Sure, we all "agree to disagree" at times, but I think we can be concise and eloquent enough to give reason why - not just "practice what you preach, sister" coming from someone who doesn't appear to know Heather at all and who has posted a whole three times.

You are just as opinionated as some of the rest of us (and please, it's no "dis" from me!) - I will continue to defend those posters and those beliefs I agree with. :)

When was the last time we saw you "avoid" a good argument? I don't - and you shouldn't.

I can't wait to cruise with you and your DW. We'd have a great time, I'm sure. :)

[TYMAN]

Here's the problem I have...and why I chimed in. This thread was about one person's experience with the elderly. I thought the whole thing was pretty funny, but as usually, these threads take a different, yet predictably direction. "Why I hate travelling with children" direction. We all know people of all ages can make for unpleasant times but why always end up the same way??? I'm thinking we're all adults here.....ok, let's continue to bicker..

[HeatherInFlorida]

Some people insist on taking every post personally, as if it was meant specifically to criticize them. They then react (and respond) "in kind" (it seems), with a personal attack.
:o -dave

Dave, when my name is used in the sentence, it's personal. The post was clearly directed at me by the use of my name (is there another Heather here?) ... specifically to criticize me. Perhaps you missed it.

Tyman, you can't think for a minute that simply because the op is about elderly passengers that it's not going to divert from there. If one person had a bad time with elderly passengers, someone else is going to talk about a problem with young passengers and so on. Frankly it was all very friendly until you took issue with someone telling their own personal experience.

[Candy]

That's not unusual... I have been told to take the garment to my cabin or the nearest ladies' room to try it on, since there is no dressing room in the shop.

...snip...
I was on a cruise last summer and a women was changing in the Bathroom out of the skirt she bought from the ships shop and wore with the tags on and tucked under,:eek: she took it off and put it back in the bag to return to the shops!!:rolleyes:

[TYMAN]

Heather....Because you have issues with Deals it's now my fault? As I've stated, certain posters always go back to the kids being the problem, no matter how the thread starts. It's easy to see. I try not to make any of this personal...and this certainly isn't, but I will state MO...ok?

[Oceanwench]

I just went back to reread the OP.
While Dr. Feelgood did specify there were some "seasoned citizens" exhibiting rude behavior, he also spoke of pax in general causing turmoil in lines and at tables in the Lido. He did not specify the age of those pax ... so perhaps there were people of all ages acting boorishly on his cruise.

HOWEVER ... these threads are stream-of-consciousness type of writing.
The OP talks about his experiences with rude pax, and then the rest of us who have memories of similar bad behavior chime in.
It shouldn't matter whether we're recalling the 10-year-olds taking over the hot tub [without parental presence], the 20-somethings hogging the chaises by the pool, the 40-somethings saving tables in the Lido, the 60-somethings saving seats in the theater ...
We are sharing experiences here -- and opinions -- and the Topic Police shouldn't feel the need to chastise someone for allegedly straying from the OP.

That's what makes this so much fun, IMO. You never know where you'll end up, which way the thread will develop.
If it strays too much off-topic and I lose interest, I go to another thread ... I don't get offended.

What I object to in this, and in other threads, is when a discussion/argument turns personal ... and one poster personally attacks another -- attacking WHO the person is, not WHAT the person says.

[TYMAN]

Topic Police...good one. Well, I'm bored....I'm moving on.

[garykool81]

I've been meaning to post the altercation I noticed about my recent Zuiderdam cruise on these boards, but didn't get a chance to do so until today...so here goes...

I was on the 12/18/04 sailing of Zuiderdam and witnessed probably the most low-class behavior of a passenger I have ever seen just while strolling through a hallway towards the bow of the ship.

(Let me make it clear that it is NOT children who are the problem...it is BAD PARENTS who are the problem. Younger kids often don't know any better, because their parents have never taught them to behave like human beings.)

A recently married couple were sharing an inside cabin across the way from a family whose children were apparently bugging the heck out of them -- running up and down the halls screaming, knocking on their door and then running away, etc. This was the first day of the cruise, and the passengers of the inside cabin were concerned (rightfully so) that their entire cruise would be obnoxiously loud and would cause them to lose sleep, stress out, etc.

They politely (I witnessed this first hand) asked the father of this children, whose cabin door was open as the kids were running around, to control his kids and quiet them down so they could get some sleep. The man, who was an intimidating 6'3"ish, 250+ pounds, shaved head and somewhat drunk with beer in hand, missed not a single beat and lashed out against the passengers who had complained.

He told them to "...mind your own f****** business."

The complainer, now upset, mentioned something about "...respecting those around you," in reference to the drunk man's lack of good parenting and general attitude of not caring about those passengers residing around his cabin.

The drunk man, this time becoming threatening, said something along the lines of, "Why don't you come over here, and I'll teach you some respect myself...if you know what's good for you, you'll go back in your cabin."

At this point, the wife of the inside passenger's cabin came out and exclaimed "Excuse me! Did you just threaten my husband?!"

They continued to argue, while the larger passenger with the outside cabin and kids became more threatening, etc.

At this point, my partner and I decided that we should take another route and cut back across to the other side of Zuiderdam and continued on our route. Had I been in that same situation, I would have closed my door, called security, then made my way to guest relations, spoken with a manager, and *demanded* that the man be removed from Zuiderdam at the first port of call as he had violated Holland America's code of conduct for passengers and security protocal.

That said, we re-learned an important lesson about why we never vacation during times of the year where children/college students/families are off from school/work.

On the cruises and vacations we've taken NOT during a spring/winter/summer break, we've seen plenty of families that are perfectly polite with very well behaved children. There is something about these school break periods, though, that attract a little more of a "rough" clientele, IMO.

[RuffinReady]

Dave, what happened to that great picture that you had of that scene at the beach? :D

Ruffin

[dakrewser]

Dave, what happened to that great picture that you had of that scene at the beach? :D

Ruffin

Shh! The DW was getting suspicious! :rolleyes:

-dave

[dakrewser]

As I've stated, certain posters always go back to the kids being the problem, no matter how the thread starts. It's easy to see. I try not to make any of this personal...and this certainly isn't, but I will state MO...ok?

While it's the actions of certain kids that raise hackles, most will readily admit, in agreement with Garykool81: "Let me make it clear that it is NOT children who are the problem...it is BAD PARENTS who are the problem. Younger kids often don't know any better, because their parents have never taught them to behave like human beings."

My wife and I raised 4 children ourselves, they were occasionaly hellions at home, but we made sure they respected others in public. That's the way parents acted "back in the day."

Today, though, it's all "me!, me!!, me!!!" it seems, as many (not all) parents refuse to take the time to instruct or discipline their children. This leads to young adults, 20/30-somethings, middle-agers and seniors who also show no respect for others. But the training has to begin early.

The shorthand is to complain about the kids, but in reality we're really complaining about the parents.

[TYMAN]

Amen

[doowlu]

How horrible!!!The poor crew!!!!I will be going on the ship in February. I have been on many HAL cruises before and have always enjoyed the entertainment. Was James Celine (Magician) or the Elton John impersonator (Joel Mason) on the ship?
Who were the other entertainers?
Looking forward to your review.

[Pudgesmom]

Dave,

I see you've shaved off your beard!:D

Beth

[dakrewser]

Dave,

I see you've shaved off your beard!:D

Beth

It migrated.......

:rolleyes: -dave