Prinsendam to be sold?

[Mickb]

There is a rumour over here in the UK that Prinsendam is to be sold to Fred Olsen Lines, a mid quality British line, which already operates one of the old Royal Viking ships, with delivery at the end of the year. Has anyone heard anything similar?

[jhannah]

Someone gave a planned sale as one possible reason why no real physical modifications were being made to the Prinsendam under HAL's SOE program (no teen area, no Explorations Cafe, etc.) For 2006 there's not much available on the HAL website, so no clues there yet.

[gizmo]

Well, maybe. I guess anything is possible.

I can't agree with the reasoning of no teen area etc. The Prisendam is a small ship used for WC and longer cruises. It would not make any sense to add these features, since very few children or teens would be on any of the itineraries for this ship.

[lipoppop]

She is scheduled for the 2006 world cruise but HAL could substitute another vessel even after people have booked as per its contract.

[localady]

My prior question regarding the Prinsendam had no basis in fact, it was just me wondering outloud how long HAL would hold on to a ship the age of the Prinsendam..... :o

I would truly hate to see it happen though, as I think the smaller size of the ship is a HUGE advantage and has a perfect "niche" at HAL for the longer and more obscure ports that a seasoned cruiser enjoys. My DH and I are very anxious to sail her this next summer.:cool:

[dougnewmanatsea]

I doubt it. I'm sure Olsen would love to have her but I don't see HAL selling her at this point. I was reliably told a few months ago that HAL planned to keep PRINSENDAM in their fleet for many years to come.

If I hear anything I will keep you posted however.

[DFD1]

HAL has had great success with Prinsendam and she has attracted the affection of many loyal HAL cruisers. I would be very surprised if they sold her at the height of her success/popularity.

[terrascape]

I had a chance to browse HAL tentative 2006 European schedule. The Prinsendam is listed right into October 2006, doing some very unusual itineraries including North Africa, Norwegian Fjords, Bear Island, Black Sea ports, Cyprus, Egypt & multiple ports in Turkey. It sounds like more opportunities for "exploring" unusual ports on the Prinsendam, leaving the more routine to the Noordam, Rotterdam & Amsterdam.

[GrammyPL]

We were on the Prinsendam 28 day Amazon Cruise and the gossip was that the after the New Noordam came out (in 2006) that the next ship was to be a new Prinsendam. I hope that is true and it will be about that same size. (SMALL for HAL's other ships) Penny

[Cristiano]

I hope that HAL wait at least until my DW and I have had the chance to enjoy her in June and then next year also..........:(

Cristiano

[bepsf]

I can't imagine HAL selling Prinsendam until plans are made for a replacement. With the delivery schedule at Fincantieri, I don't see a slot for a HAL newbuild until after the Queen Victoria delivery for Cunard in Dec '07.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I now have it from a reliable source that HAL have indeed put PRINSENDAM up for sale and are actively shopping her around to several smaller operators. Apparently she would require a substantial amount of work to bring her in line with any new owner's fleet, which is a sticking point with potential buyers.

However, so far as I know, she has not yet been sold at this point.

Incidentally, it should be noted that virtually all ships are for sale at the right price - in my previous post I meant to indicate that HAL were not actively trying to sell her. However, since that post a reliable source informed me that she is in fact actively for sale.

As always I will keep you updated if I hear anything further.

[RuffinReady]

I now have it from a reliable source that HAL have indeed put PRINSENDAM up for sale and are actively shopping her around to several smaller operators.

in my previous post I meant to indicate that HAL were not actively trying to sell her.

Doug, which is it, are they actively trying to sell the Prinsendam or not?

What would happend to pax who have contracts for cruises if HAL sells her?

Ruffin

[dougnewmanatsea]

Doug, which is it, are they actively trying to sell the Prinsendam or not?
Per my source, she is actively for sale. This is new information that I received before my first post on this topic. I've edited my most recent post to clarify this.

Apologies for any confusion.

[RuffinReady]

Doug, thanks for the clarification.

What would happen to pax who have booked cruises if she is sold before the cruise date?

Ruffin

[tomc]

I thought HAL just bought it not that long ago. Or is my =ahem= mature memory playing tricks on me?

[dougnewmanatsea]

What would happen to pax who have booked cruises if she is sold before the cruise date?
On that, I can't answer you. I would imagine that either you could elect to choose a different cruise (on another HAL ship), or take a refund - at least this is what is most often done if a cruise is cancelled for one reason or another.

At any rate since she's not been sold yet and these things don't happen overnight, I wouldn't expect her to be abruptly leaving the HAL fleet in the near future.

I thought HAL just bought it not that long ago. Or is my =ahem= mature memory playing tricks on me?
Your memory is fine Tom - but they didn't actually buy her. She was a, shall we say, "displaced ship" from another far corner of the Carnival group.

PRINSENDAM was built in 1988 as ROYAL VIKING SUN, for Royal Viking Line which had just been bought a few years before by Kloster Cruise Ltd, then the owners of NCL. Kloster sold RVL in 1994 to Cunard, then owned by Trafalgar House, who were bought out in (I think) 1998 by Kvaerner. Kvaerner did not actually want a cruise line, but Trafalgar House refused to sell off only parts of their company (Kvaerner were after their construction assets I believe) and so Kvaerner bought the whole company and sold Cunard to Carnival in 1999. With Cunard came ROYAL VIKING SUN. Carnival merged Cunard with Seabourn, who they'd bought a few years earlier, and in 2000 sent ROYAL VIKING SUN to Seabourn where she beacme SEABOURN SUN. She was very different from the other Seabourn ships and was not a success at Seabourn so in 2002 Carnival sent her over to HAL. And now it seems that she'll be leaving the Carnival group altogether, that is if and when they find a buyer.

[tomc]

PRINSENDAM ... ROYAL VIKING SUN ... Royal Viking Line ... Kloster Cruise Ltd ... NCL ... Kloster ... RVL ... Cunard ... Trafalgar House ... Kvaerner ... Kvaerner ... Trafalgar House ... Kvaerner ...Cunard ... Carnival ... ROYAL VIKING SUN ... Carnival ... Cunard ... Seabourn ... ROYAL VIKING SUN ... Seabourn ... SEABOURN SUN ... Seabourn ... Carnival ... HAL ... Carnival.

Oh, ok. Now that you simplified it, everything makes sense. :)

[Globaliser]

Your memory is fine Tom - but they didn't actually buy her. She was a, shall we say, "displaced ship" from another far corner of the Carnival group.

PRINSENDAM was built in 1988 as ROYAL VIKING SUN, for Royal Viking Line which had just been bought a few years before by Kloster Cruise Ltd, then the owners of NCL. Kloster sold RVL in 1994 to Cunard, then owned by Trafalgar House, who were bought out in (I think) 1998 by Kvaerner. Kvaerner did not actually want a cruise line, but Trafalgar House refused to sell off only parts of their company (Kvaerner were after their construction assets I believe) and so Kvaerner bought the whole company and sold Cunard to Carnival in 1999. With Cunard came ROYAL VIKING SUN. Carnival merged Cunard with Seabourn, who they'd bought a few years earlier, and in 2000 sent ROYAL VIKING SUN to Seabourn where she beacme SEABOURN SUN. She was very different from the other Seabourn ships and was not a success at Seabourn so in 2002 Carnival sent her over to HAL. And now it seems that she'll be leaving the Carnival group altogether, that is if and when they find a buyer.The poor ship has always been a misfit in just about every fleet in which she was placed. Which is quite ironic, considering that as Royal Viking Sun she was regularly regarded as the finest cruise ship in the world.

[Himself]

If HAL does get rid of this ship, it would be nice if they built a new Prisendam and made it more the size of the current version. Many PAX I sense like the small ship as opposed to the "mega-size" ships that has been the recent history of HAL.

Himself

[jhannah]

I like the size of the Prinsendam. We sailed her last fall, and will be on her again in August. I also like the larger ships ... but for longer cruises the smaller ship is so much easier to get around in. The only "negative" is that my DW misses the greater variety of onboard shops that the bigger ships have. Like we cruise to go shopping! ;) OUCH! Yes, dear. Onboard shopping is really important.

[DFD1]

Thanks, Doug, for the information. I'm really surprised. I thought she was a big success with HAL. ...Hmm, tells you what I know!

[Host Walt]

I have no facts to add about the Prinsendam's situation. I suspect it was intended to be a ship for unusual and novel itineraries and ports and was acquired when the Nieuw Amsterdam and the old Noordam were still part of the fleet. Earlier HAL had a wide variety of ship styles and itineraries but with the introduction of the Statendam, HAL introduced the 1200+ ships and more standardized itineraries and started dropping the unique "adventure" itineraries.

Today HAL markets itself where the Prinsendam is sort of an odd duck. For example, when producing a Europe book, many (most) of the itineraries are duplicates/reverses where several different ships make multiple journeys on the same routes. One page can, and have, marketed all the Baltic cruises for a complete season, for example, and targets 10's of thousands of potential customers.

However the Prinsendam could start a voyage in the Baltic and wind up in Australia (or some such). That itinerary would require it's own page(s) with a much smaller target, fewer than 1000, so it really is not a cost effective promotional vehicle.

As Doug demonstrated in his posts, the Prinsendam didn't fit well anywhere, most recently with HAL. Hopefully, as with Hans Christian Anderson's original Ugly Duckling, she will find a prince charming and be morphed into a swan.
:o

As for cancellations, unless there is a deal imminent, I doubt that a transaction could be completed very quickly and would affect only much later sailings than 2005.

[bepsf]

Today HAL markets itself where the Prinsendam is sort of an odd duck. For example, when producing a Europe book, many (most) of the itineraries are duplicates/reverses where several different ships make multiple journeys on the same routes. One page can, and have, marketed all the Baltic cruises for a complete season, for example, and targets 10's of thousands of potential customers.

However the Prinsendam could start a voyage in the Baltic and wind up in Australia (or some such). That itinerary would require it's own page(s) with a much smaller target, fewer than 1000, so it really is not a cost effective promotional vehicle.

I hear what you're saying Walt, but specialized journeys such as World Cruises really only have a target of fewer than 1000 people - maybe 4000 if one counts segmenters. With your logic - why would any line bother doing a World Cruise at all?

I believe HAL needs a smaller ship like Prinsendam for these exotic voyages. But I also believe the real reason that she is for sale is probably due to the enourmous maintenance issues (plumbing, AC, etc.) we've heard reports of on this older ship more than anything else. HAL needs a small ship for exotic voyages, but also a reliable one. HAL can't afford to have something major happen on the other side of the earth.

Sad how ill-fated the ships named Prinsendam have been...

[dakrewser]

There are still a few of the old Renaissance R boats around, as well as the Pacific Princess and Tahiti Princess in the 700 pax range. Oceana seems to be doing OK with the R boats, maybe HAL could get one for it's Prinsendam replacement. Or, if the Statendam does well in the South Pacific, it could be her or the Maasdam who take over the "destination" cruises...

[lipoppop]

The world cruise sells out even at its premium price per passenger day. Therefore and this is my guess, no facts to back it up, I think HAL knows that they make money on the world cruises and will replace the Princendam with either the Rotterdam or Amsterdam, the more "classy flagship vessels, thereby incresing the passanger capacity by a tad over 50 peercent.

The increased cost of the larger vessel will be offset by the increase in revenue provided the cruises sell well and I think they will. The exotic itineraries sell well. Look at the Amsterdam's 62 day loop of the Pacific in Oct 2005. In June 2004 it was almost sold out and the passenger price per day is very high.

The only drawback I see to the Rotterdam and Amsterdam is that they could use more veranda cabins.

HAL could build a new "world cruise" vessel at its leasure.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I have no facts to add about the Prinsendam's situation. I suspect it was intended to be a ship for unusual and novel itineraries and ports and was acquired when the Nieuw Amsterdam and the old Noordam were still part of the fleet.
NIEUW AMSTERDAM was long-gone when HAL took over PRINSENDAM, but the old NOORDAM was indeed still part of the fleet.

As Doug demonstrated in his posts, the Prinsendam didn't fit well anywhere, most recently with HAL.
I guess she fit well enough at Royal Viking, but they were essentially dissolved when sold to Cunard. (Cunard bought Royal Viking for the ship, the name, and the list of past passengers.)

I believe HAL needs a smaller ship like Prinsendam for these exotic voyages. But I also believe the real reason that she is for sale is probably due to the enourmous maintenance issues
I am told it is definitely an issue as far as finding a buyer is concerned. Whether this is why HAL are selling her, I don't know. I imagine there are other underlying reasons, or they would just drydock her, put her right once and for all, and get on with it.

There are still a few of the old Renaissance R boats around, as well as the Pacific Princess and Tahiti Princess in the 700 pax range.
The R-ships are all taken at this point. PACIFIC and TAHITIAN are R ships by the way. In fact no less than three of the eight R ships are now corporate cousins of PRINSENDAM within the Carnival group - R3/PACIFIC PRINCESS, R4/TAHITIAN PRINCESS, and R8/MINERVA II.

Oceana seems to be doing OK with the R boats, maybe HAL could get one for it's Prinsendam replacement.
Not likely. Honestly if I had to guess (and this is just a guess) I'd say that there won't be any replacement, and some of the S-class or R-class ships will take over some of the more exotic itineraries, while the rest will just be dropped.

[localady]

Just a guess on my part, but I think that HAL is unlikely to have a ship built that would hold less passengers than their current 'S' class ships. The crew compliment for a smaller ship is higher per passenger generally. It would make it difficult for a smaller ship to generate the amount of revenue a larger ship could generate, even if it is marketed as the "Elegant Explorer" and marketed higher priced cruises. My guess is that the bean counters at HAL would recommend against a smaller ship as the profits would be less.:eek:
I am thrilled that my DH and I will have an opportunity to sail her!:) I suspect that if we determine we like this size ship, we'll have to find another cruise line like Oceania or one of the other "top of the line" fleets. It truly is a shame as many will not get the pleasure of cruising into places like the Kiel Canal, which is not built to support even the "S" class ships. Please note: These are just my opinions and semi-educated guesses based on basic economics, I have no inside source.:cool:

[RuthC]

But localady, now I'm confused. IIRC we've discussed on this board before that the next series of HAL ships was to be smaller---smaller than the Vistas certainly, but I thought smaller than the S-class, too.

Didn't we? :confused:

I'd be one happy cruiser to return to the days of smaller, more intimate ships. I love the current S-class. But I also remember the days when they were very large compared to what I had cruised on. I like sailing a ship where I get to know everybody. The smaller ships allow that.

[localady]

But localady, now I'm confused. IIRC we've discussed on this board before that the next series of HAL ships was to be smaller---smaller than the Vistas certainly, but I thought smaller than the S-class, too.

Didn't we? :confused:

I'd be one happy cruiser to return to the days of smaller, more intimate ships. I love the current S-class. But I also remember the days when they were very large compared to what I had cruised on. I like sailing a ship where I get to know everybody. The smaller ships allow that.

Ruth- I totally agree with you and would be THRILLED totally if that is what happens.... :D It seems to buck the trend though of bigger ships=more profit. I surely hope I am wrong and that you are right!! :cool:

[bepsf]

Ruth- I totally agree with you and would be THRILLED totally if that is what happens.... :D It seems to buck the trend though of bigger ships=more profit. I surely hope I am wrong and that you are right!! :cool:

I seem to recall reading somewhere that HAL's latest thinking was that the next class of ships were going to be somewhere in the 65,000 ton range (slightly larger than the R-Class) Of course, that was before the drop of the dollar's value and the decision to divest themselves of Prinsendam...

Still, nothing has been ordered from Fincantieri, so who knows for sure anymore?

[dougnewmanatsea]

But localady, now I'm confused. IIRC we've discussed on this board before that the next series of HAL ships was to be smaller---smaller than the Vistas certainly, but I thought smaller than the S-class, too.
Anything's possible, but I really doubt that HAL will be building anything smaller than the S-class ships... Or the R-class ships for that matter. Smaller than the Vistas, maybe, but I really would not expect HAL to build any PRINSENDAM-sized ships.

After NOORDAM there are of course no outstanding orders for new HAL ships, and with the huge capacity jump with the Vista-class ships, I don't know that they'll be rushing to order anything new at all, to be honest.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that HAL's latest thinking was that the next class of ships were going to be somewhere in the 65,000 ton range (slightly larger than the R-Class)
There have been rumors to this effect, but at this point anything about what new ships HAL may order is just speculation... I really don't think anyone knows. I've heard speculation that they will be improved Vistas, improved R-class ships, smaller ships, bigger ships, and all sorts of other things and frankly at this point I'm not inclined to believe any of it... Though some of the rumors make more sense than others, obviously.

[RuffinReady]

If the Prinsendam is going to be sold why did HAL announce the "2006 Grand World Voyage" on her beginning in January 5, 2006 in the Mariner?

They are accepting bookings for that cruise. Wouldn't that make some of their best customers very unhappy if they sold her before the spring of 2006?

Ruffin

[dougnewmanatsea]

If the Prinsendam is going to be sold why did HAL announce the "2006 Grand World Voyage" on her beginning in January 5, 2006 in the Mariner?
Well, she is for sale... That's very different from being sold. Just because she's for sale doesn't mean they're giong to instantaneously find a buyer. And until they have a buyer, they have to plan what they'll do with her until she's sold.

They are accepting bookings for that cruise. Wouldn't that make some of their best customers very unhappy if they sold her before the spring of 2006?
Probably not. I expect that another ship would take over the world cruise, and passengers on cancelled cruises would probably wind up with some sort of compensation.

At any rate right now this is just speculation - she remains in the fleet "until further notice" if you will.

[RevNeal]

Here is what Kirk Lanterman said about the next series of ships in an April 28, 2003 Press Release:

"We are now going to begin to focus our efforts on conceptualizing of the next series of vessels beyond the Vista class, which will be designed specifically for longer, worldwide cruise itineraries," Lanterman continued.

So ... look for ships designed for longer itineraries. This will almost certainly mean smaller than the Vistas. Granted, Lanterman is no longer "captain of the ship," so to speak, but that seems to have been their thinking.

[RuthC]

Thanks for the info, Greg. At least it gives me hope that the "smaller is better" idea will be considered. Better than nothing.

[wander]

As I recall, after the Rotterdam was built and did at least one World Cruise, the Amsterdam was purposefully built somewhat differently on one or two upper decks to accomodate more cabins with balconys (second pool location also changed). The stated reason at the time was to make it better suited for World Cruises and other longer cruises. The Amsterdam then did the World Cruise until the Prisendam was acquired. So, while a smaller ship might be ideal for such cruises, the Amsterdam could certainly be used to fill the need, even if only on an interim basis.