Veedam Sick

[RMSeadog]

Just received a phone message from member C 2 C. They are onboard Veedam in the Caribbean. The ship is sending many guests home form Grand Cayman. They did not say what the illness is or how long it has been going on. They where to visit us enroute to Zenith out of JAX but canceled the visit because they don't want to us ill. That's all the info I have. They may email later today. If I get any new info I'll pass it on.



Rick

[gaylenhazel]

Please pass on whatever info you have Rick. We are set to leave on the Veendam Feb. 5th. Guess there is not a lot we can do. Tickets are bought and maybe we won't get sick. Seems like they have had a lot of trouble lately with sickness on the Veendam. Guess it is difficult to get rid of once it starts.

[Arubalisa]

Wed, Jan. 26, 2005
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/10733306.htm

Sickness reports double

With the winter cruise season in full swing, the CDC warns that noroviruses are on the rise. Ten ships have reported stomach-flu outbreaks in the last two months.

BY JIM WYSS jwyss@herald.com (jwyss@herald.com)
Copyright 2005 Knight Ridder All Rights Reserved

Talk about seasick. Over the past two months the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has received reports of 10 cruise ships stricken with outbreaks of gastrointestinal problems -- more than double the number recorded during the same period a year ago.

The latest case is Holland America's Veendam, which sailed out of Tampa on Jan 15. According to the CDC, on Sunday the vessel reported that 107 of its 1,220 passengers -- or 8.8 percent -- had become sick. Illness rates of 3 percent or higher are considered an outbreak.

Earlier this month -- during a different leg of the cruise -- the same boat reported 70 ill -- 5.6 percent. Some of those passengers tested positive for norovirus, a hard-to-kill bug that causes symptoms associated with the stomach flu, such as diarrhea and vomiting.

''The norovirus, historically, has been cyclic over the course of a year, and some [years] are worse than others,'' said Dave Forney, chief of the Vessel Sanitation Program at the CDC. ``And we usually see more in the winter months than in the summer months.''

While researchers aren't certain why the seasonal trend exists, Forney said when lots of people close themselves up in confined spaces for extended periods, there is an elevated risk of noroviruses. College campuses, hotels and cruise ships are all prime breeding grounds.

Nick Schowengerdt, Holland America's director of policy and planning, said the Veendam would return to Tampa on schedule this Saturday.

''Typically you have one or two passengers that come on board and bring [the virus] with them,'' he said. ``Which is not to criticize them -- they usually don't know -- but it shows you just how easily it can be transmitted person to person.''

The norovirus is notoriously resilient, able to survive for weeks at a time on surfaces and then spread like wildfire through social contact. It's biggest foe: a bar of soap and frequent hand washing.

[Krazy Kruizers]

The Veendam's Norvo virus began on the Jan 3 - 15 cruise.

Check with sail7seas - she was among the passengers who got ill at the end of the cruise.

[kryos]

Please pass on whatever info you have Rick. We are set to leave on the Veendam Feb. 5th. Guess there is not a lot we can do. Tickets are bought and maybe we won't get sick. Seems like they have had a lot of trouble lately with sickness on the Veendam. Guess it is difficult to get rid of once it starts.
Don't fret too much. I doubt this has anything to do with the Veendam as an individual ship. I was on the Sun Princess earlier this month and we had an outbreak there too.

It's just that a ship is a confined area, and all you need is one passenger to bring the virus onboard (and most of the time they do so unknowingly because they don't even have any symptoms yet), and you could be faced with a shipfull of sick passengers.

Just take precautions ... wash your hands repeatedly, especially before and after eating, using the toilet, etc. ... and you'll maximize your chances of staying well. Also, try to keep your distance from passengers who are clearly coughing, have runny noses, etc. Norovirus is not the only thing that will ruin your vacation ... a lousy cold could wreck it too.

Blue skies and have a wonderful cruise!

--rita

[kmwilson98]

I've been trying to post all afternoon, but it won't let me. My parents are on another HAL ship right now that has skipped a port and is ending a day early, because there is so much illness on board. One of the medics told my mother that close to 50% of the ship has been stricken. None of us can believe that it hasn't made the news! My father felt weak for a few days, but never got nauseous. Mother has been fit as a fiddle.

They are supposed to continue on this ship for another cruise (back to back) and the staff keeps telling them, "We haven't decided what to do with you yet" because they will spend at least one day in port sanitizing the ship. Will their cruise be cut in half? Will they be sent home? Will they be put up in a hotel until the ship is ready to sail again?

I don't want to say the name of the ship my parents are on, because I don't want the press to pick up on it. Seems like when they do, then the next cruise is even more likely to be canceled so they can fumigate or whatever, and I'd rather not be the one to be responsible for that. Suffice it to say, things are in a terrible mess on board.

[Bridges300]

We were on the RCCL Enchantment 10 days ago and the previous cruise to ours had had an outbreak. We were incredibly impressed with RCCL's steps to break the cycle. There was an army of crew wiping down the surfaces with chlorine throughout our cruise. And plenty of hand sanitizer machines throughout the ship. There were only a few passengers getting ill and as long as they voluntarily stayed in their cabin as quarantine they were issued a hefty refund.
The cycle can be broken!

Next up Zuiderdam 4/02/2005

[torpeedo]

Oh my Lord, we are sailing on the Westerdam on 2/13.... I sure hope that's not the sick ship:eek: :( ! Better start loading up on the Purell. We usually use that and spray the entire cabin with Lysol. We sailed the Carnival Legend in Dec and were kind of lax about it. Lulled into a feeling of confidence with no outbreaks reported, SO we will be very very careful this time around.

[gizmo]

I don't want to say the name of the ship my parents are on, because I don't want the press to pick up on it. Seems like when they do, then the next cruise is even more likely to be canceled so they can fumigate or whatever, and I'd rather not be the one to be responsible for that. Suffice it to say, things are in a terrible mess on board.

Don't worry about the press picking up on it from your post. They more than likely already have all the info. When a certain percentage of people get sick on a ship, it must be reported to the CDC. The press always gets ahold of this information.

[sail7seas]

Oh my Lord, we are sailing on the Westerdam on 2/13.... I sure hope that's not the sick ship:eek: :( ! Better start loading up on the Purell. We usually use that and spray the entire cabin with Lysol. We sailed the Carnival Legend in Dec and were kind of lax about it. Lulled into a feeling of confidence with no outbreaks reported, SO we will be very very careful this time around.


Sorry to tell you, but Purell was not the magic solution for me. Neither were all of the hand sanitizers which I used every time we passed by one....nor were all of the multiple hand washings over and over and over.

[kmwilson98]

I would have thought so, but there's been not an inkling anywhere on the internet (I've searched news, groups, and cruise message boards) about what's happening on board.

A couple days ago they picked up tons more medical personnel to help deal with the number of sick passengers. I thought that surely would get the ship in the news, but so far nothing. HAL must have some very good PR people to be able to keep this hushed (NOT that I blame them, I don't really care for all the news stories myself), but how do they do it?

Also, anyone have an opinion of what they'll do with my parents? They're not exactly elderly and infirm, but as their grown daughter, I'd like to know what's to become of them when the ship gets to port...

[sail7seas]

I would have thought so, but there's been not an inkling anywhere on the internet (I've searched news, groups, and cruise message boards) about what's happening on board.

A couple days ago they picked up tons more medical personnel to help deal with the number of sick passengers. I thought that surely would get the ship in the news, but so far nothing. HAL must have some very good PR people to be able to keep this hushed (NOT that I blame them, I don't really care for all the news stories myself), but how do they do it?

Also, anyone have an opinion of what they'll do with my parents? They're not exactly elderly and infirm, but as their grown daughter, I'd like to know what's to become of them when the ship gets to port...


You certainly have gotten our attention and peaked our interest.

I'm a bit confused about
"they picked up tons more medical personnel to help deal......" Tons more?

HAL ships normally sail with a physcian and two (to - I think - four) nurses) for pax. There is also a physician for crew.

[jhannah]

Sorry to tell you, but Purell was not the magic solution for me. Neither were all of the hand sanitizers which I used every time we passed by one....nor were all of the multiple hand washings over and over and over.
Nope. All it takes in one dope to sneeze without covering their mouth and those little germies are airborne and all over the place. Such folks were obviously raised by wolves!

All the precautions you can take are good, but as Sail says they are no guarantee.

[kmwilson98]

"tons more": My mother emailed me that they had taken on quite a number of additional "white suits", which is her term for medical professionals, while they were stopped at a port a couple days ago. I apologize, perhaps the word "tons" was hyperbole, but it was unintended.

[tree25]

I would have thought so, but there's been not an inkling anywhere on the internet (I've searched news, groups, and cruise message boards) about what's happening on board.

A couple days ago they picked up tons more medical personnel to help deal with the number of sick passengers. I thought that surely would get the ship in the news, but so far nothing. HAL must have some very good PR people to be able to keep this hushed (NOT that I blame them, I don't really care for all the news stories myself), but how do they do it?

Also, anyone have an opinion of what they'll do with my parents? They're not exactly elderly and infirm, but as their grown daughter, I'd like to know what's to become of them when the ship gets to port...

Oh just say what darn ship its on.. We are leaving tommorrrow to drive to Ft. Laudedrale for Sundays Westerdam embarkation and you've tantalized my interest- hope your not just getting a kick out of spreading rumors..

[kmwilson98]

Indeed I am not just "getting my kicks". It's not the Westerdam, it's not any ship that any of you have mentioned, and I'm sorry if I'm getting people upset. That was not my intention. My intention was to get an opinion on what you all (more experienced with HAL than I) think they will do with my parents. Like I said in my original post on this thread, I tried to post a separate new thread first, but it kept getting eaten. I probably tried eight times, and then had to wait five minutes in between each attempt. When I saw this thread, I'm afraid I "hijacked it" by butting in. I do apologize.

Again, while I can't say that I'm worried per se about my parents and what shall be their lot come the day the ship arrives at port, I am...vaguely concerned, and would like to have some idea. I know that none of you work for HAL, and so anything you would say would be simply prognostication, but as I said, you are also more familiar with HAL and their practices than am I.

[peaches from georgia]

What is the quarantine period that the ship's med personnel are requesting of sick pax? I would presume a certain number of days from the time you become ill or what period of time after you are feeling well again?

In other words, what are the parameters of quarantine that would protect healthy pax from catching the virus from pax who have contracted it? Do any of you recent pax from the Veendam cruise remember?

[schack2]

We are leaving Sat. on the Veendam and last night received an email from them that they will come in early on Sat. and that they will not have early embarkation. Embarkation is set for 2 p.m. and they plan to sail at 5 p.m.

We have all the goodies packed to take care of things. Hubby got sick on Zenith last March...which we think was food poisoning but he was confined to cabin for 24 hrs. He was fine after taking some medication. He another lady who were in the infirmary had the same dessert the night before..her husband was fine and so was I. Always take precautions with hand washing etc. As a matter of fact they had hand sanitizers at beginning of buffet line and outside of Dining Room. At first they insisted passengers use it before handing out trays..but then did not and we saw people who just skipped doing it.

It could happen anywhere. When I was teaching we always had outbreaks of it and no big deal was made, but since cruise ships have to report to the CDC the media makes a big deal out of it.

I think it was the Ryandam...read an article in one of the posts that the BVI wouldn't let them in port until they checked. Only those passengers who were not quarantined were allowed to disembark in Tortola and given warnings about hand washing etc.

[heyabbott]

What meds should be packed just in case?

General penicilin?

[sail7seas]

What is the quarantine period that the ship's med personnel are requesting of sick pax? I would presume a certain number of days from the time you become ill or what period of time after you are feeling well again?

In other words, what are the parameters of quarantine that would protect healthy pax from catching the virus from pax who have contracted it? Do any of you recent pax from the Veendam cruise remember?



72 hours from onset of symptons

[sail7seas]

What meds should be packed just in case?

General penicilin?


Antibiotics are ineffective. It is viral; not bacterial.

You may wish to ask your doctor if he/she thinks you should bring something with you just in case.

I had 'just in case' meds with us. I chose to let the virus run its course .....it wasn't easy keeping meds down!

[DotCom]

There's virus on the Ryndam. My parents are on this cruise. Dad called this afternoon from Half Moon Cay Bahamas to let us know they are arriving in Ft Lauderdale a day earlier than planned; tomorrow Fri.01/28. He didn't go into much detail about the virus, more concerned with us picking them up on a friday afternoon at the atlanta airport.

This cruise originated in San Diego, middle of january, going thru Panama Canal, & ending up in Lauderdale.

[torpeedo]

KM, you might notice that Ruffin's post is now GONE.
RE your parents situation, I believe they would likely put them up in a hotel if this would be an overnight situation. There is another post regarding the Ryndam. ( if that is the ship your parents are on) Check it out. There is a letter that was sent to travel agencies about the ship arriving early and embarking later. You parents might ask for a tour of the port to take up the time. HAL should accommodate them IMHO. Glad that your parents are OK so far!!

[Jeal]

We sailed on the Zaandam over New Year's. We always used the hand sanitzers in the dining rooms and also when we boarded the ship after going ashore in a port. BUT - we saw a considerable number of people who completely ignored the hand sanitzers. Also, people used their hands rather than the utensils to pick up food on the Lido Buffet especiallly things like cookies or bread. That was pretty disgusting!
Someone told us not to use the public restrooms on the ship as an extra precaution. We followed that advice too.
I do think that some people get on the ship not knowing that they are sick but others are clearly ill when they board. Unfortunately, they infect other passengers. We know for certain one person who boarded with the flu.

[sail7seas]

I must say that for the most part a huge percentage of pax on Veendam seemed to regularly be using the hand sanitizers. There were many of them spread around the ship including at the gangway to be used when we reboarded coming back from a port.

They certainly placed a good number of them throughout Lido and in front of the dining room.

My DH and I remarked that we were happy to see so many people using them.

[pamwinn]

The CDC reports that 267 of 1,223 passengers (21.8%) and 30 of 574 crew members (5.2%) so far have reported* ill during the January 13 - 29 cruise from San Diego to Fort Lauderdale.(Ryndam)

I've never heard of a percentage that high.

[RuffinReady]

I apologize for my previous post, I shouldn't have lost my temper.:o

Ruffin

[pamwinn]

Guess I missed it. Was it directed at me?

[sail7seas]

The CDC reports that 267 of 1,223 passengers (21.8%) and 30 of 574 crew members (5.2%) so far have reported* ill during the January 13 - 29 cruise from San Diego to Fort Lauderdale.(Ryndam)

I've never heard of a percentage that high.


Those are the numbers I saw at another site that is usually very reliable.

I do not recall the percentages from Amsterdam in November 2002 when they had a stubborn outbreak but it was rather high. Disney also had some very high numbers as did Princess two summers ago in Alaska.
It is found on all ships/all cruiselines, all schools, hotels, nursing homes, dormitories......it is the second most common illness. Second only to the common cold.

[RuffinReady]

No pamwinn, it was not.


Ruffin

[tejmar]

I had mentioned the problem we had on the Veendam in previous post. We had to deal with the virus for two weeks. One thing that you have to remember is that it doesn't matter how many times you wash or sanitize your hands. It just takes one person who doesn't to transmit it to you. You can sanitize your hands before getting in the buffet line, but if someone in front of you didn't puts their contaminated hands on the counter and then you touch it, your hands are now contaminated. The ship's crew did an excellent job of sanitizing the ship but people still kept getting sick. They wouldn't let the pax touch anything food related and even took the salt and pepper shakers away, but they let the pax handle the menus. That's why my wife and I would sanitize our hands after we used the menus. We would also saniztize after after we set our trays down and started eating. The most important time to sanitize your hands is before you touch your food or your face. Just assume that anything in public areas are contaminated. In the other post someone suggested going back to wearing gloves. Probably not a bad idea.

All of the above precautions would be useless if one of the food staff caught the virus. In that case hundreds of pax would get sick very quickly.

I know we probably sound like germophobes, but we had spent a lot of money on that cruise and had looked forward to it for a year so we were determined not to let anything ruin it for us.

[kruzkeen]

All it takes in one dope to sneeze without covering their mouth and those little germies are airborne and all over the place.

Is this the case? From another thread VIRUS http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=2809606#post2809606
I had the impression that the virus was spread by hand contact to the face or mouth.

[jhannah]

Yes. This is from the CDC website. (Caution ... gross reading.)

Person-to-person spread by means of the fecal-oral route or aerosol formation after projectile vomiting is the most commonly recognized mode of transmission (4,10 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#1)), although foodborne (3 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#1),11 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#11)) and waterborne (12-14 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#11)) transmission are also well documented.

Once a person is infected, it's in the bloodstream ... thus throughout the body. Another form of aerosol formation is via sneezing.

[kmwilson98]

Yes, it's the Ryndam. The doctor told her "more than 400 passengers affected," the nurse told her that when they got to 400 they "stopped counting."

In answer to what shall become of them, the poor darlings will be put up at the Riverside Hotel (I should be so lucky!) until the ship is ready to sail, ostensibly tomorrow... Mom said they've already taken some things out of the room, like the throw pillows.

I wonder about the carpets...I know there were some problems on recent sailings of the Ryndam with sewage backing up from the toilets and soiling carpets in various cabins around the ship (not quite clear on the details of that), and so it makes me wonder if the virus (which can remain alive for weeks on surfaces) might not be partially being spread just by people walking through it. The outbreak is just so huge, it seems like there must be some unusual precipitator.

At any rate, they have arrived in Ft. Lauderdale. There are 30 back-to-back cruisers on board. One couple went up to my parents while Mom was on the cell phone with me, and told them that another couple that was supposed to sail back with the ship to San Diego was "told that they couldn't", but I think that's just heresay - if the cruise were going to be canceled or postponed, they would be letting travel agents know by now because they certainly don't want all the 1/29 cruisers flying down today and tomorrow only to be sent home unhappy at HAL's expense.

[gizmo]

It is not just cruise ships. If you do a google on the norwalk virus you will find there have been outbreaks all over the county and up in Canada.

[Ryndam2002]

...They are onboard Veedam in the Caribbean. The ship is sending many guests home form Grand Cayman...



Rick
HAL (and other lines) are making a big mistake in kicking sick passengers off their ships in third-world countries. I think it is very shabby treatment of their PAX. These unlucky ones then have to go through the unanticipated hassle of flying home while sick and then infecting an airplane full of people.
This is passing the buck at its worst, IMO. They need to figure out how to better enforce the cabin quarantine rule rather than just kicking the sick off the ship.

[RMSeadog]

I guess we have been lucky. We have sailed 17 times on RCCL/Celebrity since 2000. We have never had a problem with stomach problems, a cold and sore throat a couple of times. We where last in Millennium in Dec 04 and they where always cleaning the handrails and public area, after vacuuming, the rugs where brushed with a liquid disinfectant daily. We are doing a B2B in Zenith in Feb and will have all your comments in the back of our minds.

Rick

[sail7seas]

Yes. This is from the CDC website. (Caution ... gross reading.)

Person-to-person spread by means of the fecal-oral route or aerosol formation after projectile vomiting is the most commonly recognized mode of transmission (4,10 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#1)), although foodborne (3 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#1),11 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#11)) and waterborne (12-14 (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no1/02-0175.htm#11)) transmission are also well documented.

Once a person is infected, it's in the bloodstream ... thus throughout the body. Another form of aerosol formation is via sneezing.


Does anyone know for absolutely sure that sneezing is a method of transmission of the virus?

I ask this because it will answer to me Why/How/When I got it.

We were seated in the dining room and a man at the table directly behind us kept sneezing one evening. He sneezed at least 8 times in a row with no use of a handkerchief, tissue or anything to cover his face. I kept cringing in my seat with each sneeze fully expecting I was sure to catch his cold. Apparently I got his Virus!!!

It has been a puzzle to us how I got it as we are so very careful and have avoided it so many times in the past when we knew it was present on a ship.

So......I hope someone who REALLY KNOWS can verify if this is true??


Duh....what is wrong with my head!!! I just realized I am seeing my cardiologist today and will ask him..... and will report back with his answer.

[Pete Jackson]

The cruise lines need to consider whether the tendency to overwork the staff might be aggravating the problem. A couple of times on our last cruise, I saw a couple of staff people who had that 'stayed up all night' look, including hands that looked unwashed (not really dirty, mind you, but you know how they look after long trips, etc. - and I mentioned it, without naming specific persons, in our post-cruise comments). Also, if a staff member gets sick, can they be able to quarantine them effectively, which means somebody else having to do their job? Not easy if everybody is overworked to the hilt.

When illness persists from one cruise to the next, they blame the longevity of the virus, but I suspect that sick staff who must keep working is a major culprit. I know competiveness between cruise lines makes everyone need to work hard, but the system needs to have some way to quarantine sick staff or, otherwise, the stories of everybody getting sick on cruise ships will make a big cut into business.

[shipcafe]

HAL (and other lines) are making a big mistake in kicking sick passengers off their ships in third-world countries. I think it is very shabby treatment of their PAX. These unlucky ones then have to go through the unanticipated hassle of flying home while sick and then infecting an airplane full of people.
This is passing the buck at its worst, IMO. They need to figure out how to better enforce the cabin quarantine rule rather than just kicking the sick off the ship.

Many "quarantined" passengers also choose to break the quarantine and roam about in public areas, subsquently spreading what they already have to others ....

[Kami's pal]

I've had this several times at home (caught, I think from children I taught); but twice on cruise ships, one out of Buenos Aires and once on Xpedition. Often, in the news, a "typhoid Mary" is blamed for spreading the GI problem. However, I am certain that the crew are a big factor in spreading this. They, after all, do develop an immunity to it, so can work while feeling only slightly ill, or after missing only one shift. Since the person is contagious for 48 -72 hours after onset, it isn't only the passengers who refuse to quarantine themselves that are to blame.

The crew also do not glove between cleaning cabins. Think about it. they empty waste baskets, laundry, room service dishes and never glove. Even touching a door handle in a sick passenger's cabin, then opening another cabin is all it would take to transmit the pathogen. I wish that all cleaning crew were issued disposable gloves to be used ONLY in one cabin at a time and then discarded.

This is a virus. It is very vigourous, and difficult to kill. if you do a search using "Norwalk" or "Noro virus" you see that a very vigourous scrubbing with an extra strong bleach solution is necessary. Since bleach can't be used on soft furnishings, steam cleaning of soft furnishings is necessary.

there does seem to be some anecdotal evidence that prophylactic doses of Peptobismal will help. one must start taking it 2 days before the trip and continue for 2 days after the trip.

[Margie_Lady]

Crew members who get the virus are definitely quarantined. I suspect that they have a lot more at stake if they break quarantine than a passenger does, but that it only speculation on my part.

[charliewesley]

Quote

They wouldn't let the pax touch anything food related and even took the salt and pepper shakers away, but they let the pax handle the menus. That's why my wife and I would sanitize our hands after we used the menus. We would also saniztize after after we set our trays down and started eating. The most important time to sanitize your hands is before you touch your food or your face. Just assume that anything in public areas are contaminated. In the other post someone suggested going back to wearing gloves. Probably not a bad idea.



What about the cards and dice in the casino:eek:

[DFD1]

Thanks, everyone for all your comments. We sail on the Conquest this sunday and have bought enough Purrell, Lysol and hand sanitizer for the whole ship!

We'll be wiping, swiping and spraying our way from one end of the Caribbean to the other!

Hope it works. Keep your fingers crossed.

[SandiSails]

If your parents are on the Ryndam,they will be able to get off the boat,get a hotel and will be repaid later by sending receipts to Holland America's corporate office..this is all explained to the passangers before they leave the ship..they are doing a fogging today and again tomorrow am before passangers get back on the ship.

[JDee]

HAL (and other lines) are making a big mistake in kicking sick passengers off their ships in third-world countries. I think it is very shabby treatment of their PAX. These unlucky ones then have to go through the unanticipated hassle of flying home while sick and then infecting an airplane full of people.
This is passing the buck at its worst, IMO. They need to figure out how to better enforce the cabin quarantine rule rather than just kicking the sick off the ship.

Grand Cayman, a third world country? I don't think so.

On the Nov 02 Amsterdam cruise, DW was the patient and we were both disembarked at St. Thomas. They made the arrangements for overnight accomodations in a rather upscale setting. Made all air reservations, limo services in the island, & so on. Also advised that if DW was not fit to travel the following morning, to call their local agent who would authorized extended stay and rebook the flight when ready to travel. Reimbursement for all out-of-pocket expenses, etc.

HAL's position was that since the next port of call was Half Moon and would be 3 days before returning to Ft. Lauderdale, should DW take a turn for the worse, would be better off at shore facilities rather than on board ship. The virus was still going around & the vessel had not yet been satized. A future sailing date was completely cancelled.

I thought HAL treated us great... Just before actual disembarkation, hotel mgr (or rep) came to see us to make sure DW was fit to travel to land based accomodations, air travel back home, etc.....Cerainly would not call that shabby treatment--and that's from the voice of actual experience.....

Since that time, we have not slowed down our cruises & will be sailing next month.....

Happy cruising......

[peaches from georgia]

Norovirus is not a respiratory illness, it is a gastroenteritis, and does not spread by sneezing. www.cdc.gov has more information than anyone probably wants to know about it; just type in Norovirus on their search function. Here is the section on how it spreads:


How is norovirus spread?

Noroviruses are found in the stool or vomit of infected people. People can become infected with the virus in several ways, including:

eating food or drinking liquids that are contaminated with norovirus;
touching surfaces or objects contaminated with norovirus, and then placing their hand in their mouth;
having direct contact with another person who is infected and showing symptoms (for example, when caring for someone with illness, or sharing foods or eating utensils with someone who is ill).
Food and drinks can very easily become contaminated with norovirus because the virus is so small and because it probably takes fewer than 100 norovirus particles to make a person sick. Food can be contaminated either by direct contact with contaminated hands or work surfaces that are contaminated with stool or vomit, or by tiny droplets from nearby vomit that can travel through air to land on food. Although the virus cannot multiply outside of human bodies, once on food or in water, it can cause illness.

Some foods can be contaminated with norovirus before being delivered to a restaurant or store. Several outbreaks have been caused by the consumption of oysters harvested from contaminated waters. Other produce such as salads and frozen fruit may also be contaminated at source.



Why is norovirus infection important for food handlers?

People working with food who are sick with norovirus gastroenteritis are a particular risk to others, because they handle the food and drink many other people will consume. Since the virus is so small, a sick food handler can easily – without meaning to – contaminate the food he or she is handling. Many of those eating the contaminated food may become ill, causing an outbreak.

Outbreaks of norovirus gastroenteritis have taken place in restaurants, cruise ships, nursing homes, hospitals, schools, banquet halls, summer camps, and family dinners – in other words, places where often people have consumed water and/or food prepared or handled by others. It is estimated that as many as half of all food-related outbreaks of illness may be caused by norovirus. In many of these cases, sick food handlers were thought to be implicated.

[Esme]

JDee - I was going to say the same thing to Ryndam2002 - Grand Cayman, aThirld World Country - I don't think so either. Obviously he doesn't know that the Cayman $ is worth more than the US $ and that a lot of Americans and Candians "hide" their money on Cayman Banks.


So glad that HAL took very good care of you when DW was ill.

[~Nereus~]

Just received a phone message from member C 2 C. They are onboard Veedam in the Caribbean. The ship is sending many guests home form Grand Cayman. They did not say what the illness is or how long it has been going on. They where to visit us enroute to Zenith out of JAX but canceled the visit because they don't want to us ill. That's all the info I have. They may email later today. If I get any new info I'll pass it on.



Sorry to be the cause of this message. We called from the ship and left a message on the answering machine to the effect that passengers were not allowed to get off in Grand Cayman and forced to return home early..

[tejmar]

Quote

They wouldn't let the pax touch anything food related and even took the salt and pepper shakers away, but they let the pax handle the menus. That's why my wife and I would sanitize our hands after we used the menus. We would also saniztize after after we set our trays down and started eating. The most important time to sanitize your hands is before you touch your food or your face. Just assume that anything in public areas are contaminated. In the other post someone suggested going back to wearing gloves. Probably not a bad idea.



What about the cards and dice in the casino:eek:

In the casino, they handed out plastic gloves for players to use. Also, they said that they disinfected everything. We played the casino, but again we disinfected often and tried to remember to wash up after leaving. You have to remember that if you lean on a counter or a railing that wash infectected then touch your arms then your hands are infected. On our cruise the number of sick pax was never more than a dozen and the staff did their best to eliminate it, but even with their monumental effort, it took 2 weeks of a 3 week cruise. Also, the captain said that none of the crew contacted the virus, but I knew that wasn't true because I happened to overhear some of the crew talking to one of the Adagio Strings Quartet about how he was feeling. His appearance was about the same as the pax that had recovered from it and he said that he hadn't had anything but some broth that day. I find it hard to believe that the crew wouldn't have been infected. As I had stated in the other post, my wife heard one of the pax say that a pax who had stayed on from the previous leg tell her that people had been sick toward the end. Three days later the captain notified us about sick pax.

Interestingly, I spoke to my parents who stay down in Panama City Beach, FL for the winter and my mother said that they were both sick with the virus and a significant number of other occupants on the condo were also sick. They have many activites in the common rooms like bridge tournaments, etc. So, it's a problem anywhere people congregate. Unfortunately, cruise ships have a very high concentration of people. That's why I wonder if when the pax get sick and the you know what flys and becomes airborne if the ventilation systems don't become a problem. I know one thing though, there are a lot of people who don't practice good hygiene after using restrooms. I've witnessed it often.

[sungoddess]

It is nearly impossible to enforce a cabin quarrantine to guests who do not want to miss their vacation. Trust me. HAL does not send people home in third world countries (Grand Cayman is certainly not one), and when it is necessary to send guests home, they try to make it as comfortable as possible. If they need to stay in a hotel before they fly home, then they will. It is a no win situation and someone will always be unhappy.

[MortgageChick]

While not very pleasant I have suffered 2 bouts of this on 2 separate cruises and have lived to tell about it. In my case it lasted about 24-36 hours. Do not make the mistake of taking Immodium or anything similar.( I made this mistake and paid dearly) Without getting graphic, just best to let it run its course.

The way people panic about the "stomach flu"/gastroenteritis or whatever else you want to call Norwalk, you'd think it was the plague. This is a very common virus, in our midst continuously. Like I said it is very unpleasant, but it is the risk you run when in close quarters with thousands of others, from many parts of the COuntry and the Globe,introducing common viruses and other illnesses into an environment where they are bound to spread quickly.

Who is to say you didn't catch it on the flight to the embarkation city? Maybe you are the one introducing it to the ship. This is the time of year for the flu and many illnesses like it, not just in your home town, but on your Vacation too!

This is not the cruise lines fault!

[sungoddess]

I agree! CNN and other news agencies are making this a cruise ship virus, which it simply is not. I have come across many people who are ill with this virus in the terminal prior to boarding and they are denied boarding.

[sail7seas]

Who is to say you didn't catch it on the flight to the embarkation city? Maybe you are the one introducing it to the ship. This is the time of year for the flu and many illnesses like it, not just in your home town, but on your Vacation too!

This is not the cruise lines fault!


We flew to Tampa three days pre-cruise. We were on a 12 day cruise. I got sick on night 10. Odds are pretty strong I was exposed to it while aboard.

I absolutely agree with you that this is not the plague and for the vast majority of people who catch it, they will be ill for about 24 hours and then feel better. For people who are otherwise healthy, that is usually the case. However, it can be alot more serious for some senior folks or people who have other medical conditions. They can be and usually are sicker for a longer time and have a harder time recovering.

This virus is very common in schools, hotels, dormitories, nursing homes, hospitals etc and most assuredly is NOT 'cruiseship illness'.
Ships get all the attention because of the enclosed environment and ability to count numbers of people who are ill. It is impossible in hotels where people come and go all the time. It is not possible in dormitories as so many credit their symptons to all sorts of things and never report to the Infirmary. On Ships, it is such a controlled environment it is easy to know the 'minimum' number ill; not all ill pax go to the Infirmary or report their illness.

[sungoddess]

Exactly, Sail. Which is why sometimes it is necessary to disembark ill guests and send them home. What happens if the ship is at sea and they need urgent medical care? The ships are only equipped to do so much. Also, for many people, being on a ship and feeling the motion does not do much to help recovery.

[sail7seas]

I do not agree with the premise of putting ill passengers ashore. The Emergency Care that the ship's doctor can provide is far superior that most would be able to get if thrown off the ship in the vast majority of the ports.


I discussed this with my doctor yesterday and he (and I ) have pretty strong views on the subject. Cozumel, Jamaica, San Juan, Tortola, Costa Rica, Panama, Dominica, Nassau....and the list goes one. These are not desireable places for patients who are accustomed to health care in the U.S. or Canada to be put ashore....PARTICULARLY if they have other underlying medical conditions. IMO....it is ONLY FOR THE BENEFIT OF GETTING THEM OUT OF THE SHIP'S HAIR to put them off the ship. It is not to the passenger's benefit.

.....In My Opinion



HOWEVER.....IF A PASSENGER BECOMES ILL AND REFUSES TO COOPERATE AND REMAIN QUARANTINED, I THEN FIRMLY SUPPORT HE/SHE BEING THROWN ASHORE. IF THE PASSENGER COOPERATES AND STAYS IN THEIR CABIN, I THINK IT UNCONSCIONABLE TO THROW AN ILL PERSON OFF THE SHIP.

[sungoddess]

I totally disagree, but we all have our own views!

[sail7seas]

Would you personally feel secure being put off the ship and sent to a hospital in Montego Bay? Tortola? Costa Rica? Dominica? Ever seen one of them? Ever seen their facilities?

I would not.


I don't even get off the ship just to browse around in some Caribbean ports....I surely would not appreciate being dumped into one of their hospitals and someone at HAL telling me it was to my benefit when the 'illness in question' was Noro virus.

I honestly have to say that this issue is so disturbing to me to think that this would be 'policy', it is enough for this very loyal, very long term, very frequent cruiser to think twice about whether I am willing to risk such a thing happening to me or my DH.

It gives me pause to reconsider if cruising is for me anymore if a ship is so cavalier about disposing of someone who has become a nuisance.

[sungoddess]

Sail,
This is not policy; it is only done in extreme cases. The last time I had to disembark someone for NLV was in Dec. of 2003. Policy is to keep the guests in their cabins until they have recovered. It is a difficult situation for everyone, and not being on the Veendam, I can't say why guests were disembarked.

[sail7seas]

I was on the Veendam. That is where I got NLV.


I guess we need to agree to disagree.

I find this way too disturbing to continue on a public BB.


I would just like to reiterate what to me is the most pertinent part of this conversation.....from my perspective.

IF A PAX WHO HAS CONTRACTED NLV DOES NOT COOPERATE AND WILL NOT REMAIN QUARANTINED, I THEN AGREE THE SHIP SHOULD PUT THEM ASHORE.

UNDER ALMOST NO circumstances do I support putting ashore an ill passenger if they are cooperating and are remaining in their cabin......unless it is their desire to leave or there is someother very serious other situation which exists .....OUT OF THE ORDINARY.

[peaches from georgia]

Sungoddess- Do we even know for sure that any pax on Veendam were actually transferred off the ship during the cruise? If so, how many? I am sure their conditions must have been very serious and the reason for doing so would be if and only if treatment was needed that the ship's medical facilities could not provide.

Sail, I just don't think we have enough knowledge to say any ship is cavalier about proper medical treatment. Don't forget every doc's oath is to 'do no harm', so if a patient is transferred off the ship the doc himself would have to be able to back up this decision.

[sail7seas]

As I stated, I am finding this conversation too disturbing to continue on a public BB but I shall (attempt) to continue it with the appropriate people.

[JDee]

DW & I were amongst a group of pax who were disembarked at St. Thomas in 11/02 from the Amsterdam. You can see my comments on sequence No. 46 on this same thread for the details.

We would do it again under the same circumstances. DW felt it would be much better to be home the next day, rather than stay on board for 3 more days confined to our cabin, disembark in Ft. Lauderdale and still have to travel to Tampa. At the time, it was choosing the lesser of two evils.... She went to sleep in her own bed the next day & glad of it....

That disembarkation worked primarily because only a few were involved & most likely did curtail the spread of noro at least we were told it would. However, if a ship has a few hundred sick pax, disembarkation in a foreign port would be impossible even if the cruise line wanted to. The foreign country would not allow it, refering to those in the Caribbean. I am quite positive that the U.S.V.I. governmental authorities had to approve the disembarkation. (Yeah, I know, USVI is not a foreign government, but you get the idea.)

Am sure we all have been to may foreign ports where we see a sick pax being evacuated with an ambulance on the dock and saying "boy, I'm glad it's not me." Sometimes you just will not have a choice when medical facilities on board are not equiped to handle your particular emergency. Being disembarked certainly better than being placed in the ship's refrigerator..http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon9.gif The lesser of two evils....http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Just a thought.....Stay healthy out there....

[sail7seas]

JDee....

I did see your other post and consider it and this one very valuable. Thank you for posting them.





[quote] Am sure we all have been to may foreign ports where we see a sick pax being evacuated with an ambulance on the dock and saying "boy, I'm glad it's not me." Sometimes you just will not have a choice when medical facilities on board are not equiped to handle your particular emergency. Being disembarked certainly better than being placed in the ship's refrigerator..http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon9.gif The lesser of two evils....http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Of course, we have seem medical debarks at all sorts of ports. A medical debark is absolutely necessary in some cases. I am not discussing the pax who suddenly has an appenticitis attack, a heart attack etc


I am disturbed about a pax who has NLV. Who has no 'complications' requiring specialized care. I am talking about the convenience of getting rid of sources of the virus at the pleasure of the ship and the discomfort and distress of the passenger. It may suit the ship just fine to get rid of those pax who have become ill in order to positively eliminiate the potential of them spreading the virus to others.

I do not approve of that philosophy in the event the pax is COOPERATING and is remaining quarantined.

[Toad]

TAMPA, Florida (AP) -- About 230 people on a Holland America cruise ship came down with a gastrointestinal illness on a Caribbean voyage, forcing the trip to end early.

About 200 of the 1,220 passengers and 30 of the 572 crew members aboard the Veendam got sick on the trip, which ended in Tampa on Friday evening about 13 hours early. Sick passengers were quarantined to their rooms, passengers and officials said.

While they were disappointed at missed tours, several passengers said they were impressed with the staff's work to disinfect the ship. Crew members scrubbed banisters, elevator knobs and other exposed areas to eliminate the virus that spreads easily in close quarters.

Passengers said they were warned of a potential health hazard because travelers on the previous cruise fell ill. They were offered a refund if they wanted to cancel before the ship left Jan. 15. Passengers who took the trip will get partial refunds ranging from $125 to $250 (euro95 to euro190), Holland America spokeswoman Rose Abello said.

She said about 70 people out of 1,236 passengers suffered gastrointestinal sickness on the two-week cruise that returned on January 15.

Nobody needed hospitalization when the ship docked Friday, though passengers had access to the infirmary on board, Abello said.

Holland America is owned by Miami-based Carnival Corp., the world's largest cruise company.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have noticed an increase of outbreaks of norovirus, a gastrointestinal illness, on cruise ships and on land this winter.

Earlier this month, more than 250 passengers on a Royal Caribbean ship, the Mariner of the Seas, became ill during a western Caribbean tour. Twenty of 1,190 crew members also became sick on the ship, which had left Florida on January 16 for a seven-day cruise.

[Pudgesmom]

Last night, my airline pilot DH became extremely sick in NYC with possibly this virus. He has been through many of the Florida cities in the last week.

I believe anyone who is contagious with the norwalk virus should stay confined in their cabin on the cruise ship, or maybe a hotel room if necessary. Why would a known contagious person board an airplane, which is a smaller contained area than a ship, just to get home and "sleep in their own bed?" If you're sick, stay where you are, and infect as few others as possible, please!

Beth

[TheNYPlateMan]

There is a video feed about the story @ www.tampabay10.com

This is from their website:
Tampa, Florida - A Tampa-based cruise ship returned to port 12 hours early Friday, after a viral outbreak made 204 passengers sick.

Cathy Wos, Passenger:
"The cruise from hell."

A Holland America Line spokeswoman says the ms Veendam returned to port Friday afternoon, instead of Saturday morning, so it could undergo a “rigorous” cleaning before Saturday’s 5:00 p.m. departure.

Peter Welch, Passenger:
"Some people spent six days in their cabin – six days!"

All 1,220 passengers were offered $125 to $250 in compensation, according to the spokeswoman.

Rose Abello, Holland America Line Spokesperson: Some people on the ship are sick, but this is not a sick ship.

Before boarding, passengers say they were warned some customers on the previous sailing had become ill. While they were offered full refunds if they chose not to travel, some claim they were not told about the extent of the problem. According to Abello, 77 passenger and crew got sick on the last sailing.

Cathy Wos:
"I don’t think it should have gone out when we did and it definitely shouldn’t go out tomorrow."

Abello describes the sickness as a stomach-flu. Samples are being sent to the Centers for Disease Control for testing. In November 2002 a different Holland America ship was taken out of service after more than 500 passengers contracted the Norwalk Virus over the course of four sailings.



Ned Roberts, Tampa Bay's 10 News

[Santa Fe Jim]

Does anyone know for absolutely sure that sneezing is a method of transmission of the virus?

I ask this because it will answer to me Why/How/When I got it.

We were seated in the dining room and a man at the table directly behind us kept sneezing one evening. He sneezed at least 8 times in a row with no use of a handkerchief, tissue or anything to cover his face. I kept cringing in my seat with each sneeze fully expecting I was sure to catch his cold. Apparently I got his Virus!!!

It has been a puzzle to us how I got it as we are so very careful and have avoided it so many times in the past when we knew it was present on a ship.

So......I hope someone who REALLY KNOWS can verify if this is true??


Duh....what is wrong with my head!!! I just realized I am seeing my cardiologist today and will ask him..... and will report back with his answer.

NO!! This was from a complete misunderstanding of the CDC citation!! If you were in the presence of someone experiencing projectile vomiting, you would be exposed to aerosolized virus -- I doubt this was the case in your dining room. Sneezing does not spread NV -- it transmits respiratory tract diseases.

I would like to see Mr. Hannah's source for the statement about a gastrointestinal virus becoming a blood-borne pathogen, since it wasn't in the CDC article.

SFJ

[Ryndam2002]

I do not agree with the premise of putting ill passengers ashore. The Emergency Care that the ship's doctor can provide is far superior that most would be able to get if thrown off the ship in the vast majority of the ports.


I discussed this with my doctor yesterday and he (and I ) have pretty strong views on the subject. Cozumel, Jamaica, San Juan, Tortola, Costa Rica, Panama, Dominica, Nassau....and the list goes one. These are not desireable places for patients who are accustomed to health care in the U.S. or Canada to be put ashore....PARTICULARLY if they have other underlying medical conditions. IMO....it is ONLY FOR THE BENEFIT OF GETTING THEM OUT OF THE SHIP'S HAIR to put them off the ship. It is not to the passenger's benefit.

.....In My Opinion



HOWEVER.....IF A PASSENGER BECOMES ILL AND REFUSES TO COOPERATE AND REMAIN QUARANTINED, I THEN FIRMLY SUPPORT HE/SHE BEING THROWN ASHORE. IF THE PASSENGER COOPERATES AND STAYS IN THEIR CABIN, I THINK IT UNCONSCIONABLE TO THROW AN ILL PERSON OFF THE SHIP.
Thanks, S7S! This was my point exactly, and I got flamed for it. Add to that the fact that many I know who cruise do so to vacation without having to fly. For a cruise line to force PAX to fly home (and possibly infect others on the plane) just because they were unfortunate enough to have become ill is not acceptable, IMO.

[Keelhaul]

On Jan 9th we sailed on the Vision. 3rd day on board and on the morning of arriving at cabo san lucas I got Diarreh with vomiting and terrible cramps. I spent that day and night and half of the next day in the cabin. I and my wife did not tell any of the crew. Our table mates were told that I had a fly bug. We were petrified that the crew would find out. When it came the time for our cabin to be made up we walked down the hall to the Crown and Anchor study for about 15 minutes. My wife would order room service. Clear broth soups and tea. My wife was fine but its my luck. Two years ago on the Grand Princess same thing. That time was far worse. (I almost think this time was food poisioning). But on the Grand it started the last evening. Up all night in the bathroom. Next morning spent in different bathrooms. Terrible trip to Miami Airport. Booked into the Terminal Hotel and spent the entire day in the Bathroom. Later that night boarded the plane home to Canada. I had not eaten or drank anything since the night before. I was purposely dehydrating myself so I could make the flight. Almost went to the Hospital instead. Made it home OK and was off work for three days.
So, this last trip, thinking Alright this time I'll keep my hands clean and stay away from the Casino (too closed quarters). I washed my hand every time I returned to the cabin. Purell ever chance I had. Still it did not work. I guess I am just lucky. Perhaps in November when we take our next cruise I'll come up with a better way to avoid this virus.
I actually wondered if being run down and tired from all the travelling before the cruise, made me more suseptical (sp) to viruses.
Cheers for now

[MortgageChick]

I thought that getting this virus built up some sought of immunity for a few years. Perhaps different strains. I experienced the same symptoms only 14 months apart on 2 different ships. Can anyone comment on this. Hoping it won't be a problem next week on our Mercury cruise.

[gizmo]

It is all over the news here in Atlanta this morning. They said they brought in crews to clean the ship etc.

[OCruisers]

Just received a phone message from member C 2 C. They are onboard Veedam in the Caribbean. The ship is sending many guests home form Grand Cayman. They did not say what the illness is or how long it has been going on. They where to visit us enroute to Zenith out of JAX but canceled the visit because they don't want to us ill. That's all the info I have. They may email later today. If I get any new info I'll pass it on.



Rick

Rick .... We were on the 15th Veendam sailing. The Captain told the pax that he felt the officals in Grand Cayman would not allow us there so we headed directly back to Tampa to allow more cleaning time for the NEXT cruise.

Except for one man who died, no one was forced off the ship in any port.
(You know how pax talk ... so we would propably have heard.) :rolleyes:

We were very glad to get off that DAM ship!

Please understand .... the trip as a whole was not completely awful BUT by day 11 there were sooooooooo many sick and/or recovering that it was no longer an enjoyable place to be!

Happy Sailing! OCruisers :)

[OCruisers]

''Typically you have one or two passengers that come on board and bring [the virus] with them,'' he said. ``Which is not to criticize them -- they usually don't know -- but it shows you just how easily it can be transmitted person to person.''

The norovirus is notoriously resilient, able to survive for weeks at a time on surfaces and then spread like wildfire through social contact. It's biggest foe: a bar of soap and frequent hand washing.

It's NOT just the passengers!!! MANY of the CREW were already sick when we arrived on the ship!!!!

Since the norovirus is resilient and able to survive for weeks at a time on surfaces, here's a question: Do you really think they actually replace the items in the gift shops after each sailing??? :eek: I don't think so!! :rolleyes:

Happy Sailing! OCruisers :)

[sail7seas]

I always try to be as fair as possible in life and on these Boards.


I received two e-mails from two people who were aboard Veendam.

While it is true there were ill passengers (and some crew), there certainly were far more who did not get ill and they actually gave a round of applause to crew they knew worked so very hard to provide the best cruise possible. In fact, they said they wrote messages of praise on their comment sheets.

We all know that reporters will interview as many people as necessary until they can find the unhappy pax, the one who want to slam the ship.....they never air the interviews of the many, many happy people who had a good cruise and enjoyed themselves.

I have stated the same thing myself. We had a good cruise and would return to Veendam without hesitation. I could catch that 'dam' virus anywhere; it just happened to be aboard a ship when I caught it This TIME. Who knows where I'll catch it some other time!! (Hopefully never again......but it isn't the end of the world.)

When was the last time we actually heard both viewpoints from disembarking pax on CNN? (or whatever news report one listens to.)

[adamsmark]

[QUOTE=sail7seas]

I am disturbed about a pax who has NLV. Who has no 'complications' requiring specialized care. I am talking about the convenience of getting rid of sources of the virus at the pleasure of the ship and the discomfort and distress of the passenger. It may suit the ship just fine to get rid of those pax who have become ill in order to positively eliminiate the potential of them spreading the virus to others.
QUOTE]
I am brand new to Holland America and don't want to see anyone removed from a ship who will get well in just a few days in there cabin. I keep reading your posts here saying the ship is doing this or did this, that the ship is making people leave in a bad port just to get rid of them. Obviously you are very upset about it and we ALL would be IF it happened.

But please don't keep saying this if you can't tell us who, when, and where it happened to. You always have good information for this board, but I just don't see proof that the cruiseship did anything wrong with people sick with Noro Virus that anyone here knows for sure happened. PLEASE tell us what your information is to say this. :confused: :confused:

[sail7seas]

You are correct that I do not know that it happened. I am reacting to reports I read here.


I do not believe in any of my posts I wrote that I knew it to be true or that I had any information about it independent of what I have read here.

In one of my earlier posts on the subject, I quoted the post which stated it.



Here is the post which stated that information:



[quote]


Ryndam2002 (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/member.php?u=17880) http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_2875923", true);
Cool Cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7


http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon1.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMSeadog
...They are onboard Veedam in the Caribbean. The ship is sending many guests home form Grand Cayman...



Rick

[OCruisers]

Yes. This is from the CDC website. (Caution ... gross reading.)

Person-to-person spread by means of the fecal-oral route or aerosol formation after projectile vomiting is the most commonly recognized mode of transmission, although foodborne and waterborne transmission are also well documented. Once a person is infected, it's in the bloodstream ... thus throughout the body. Another form of aerosol formation is via sneezing.

At the CDC Q&A Session for the PAX (televised in cabins for the quarantined) the above info was stated. Also, there are a variety of types of the virus. They kept saying that while they have documentation of how it is normally spread BUT they do not know HOW it is spreading on the Veendam.

A couple of pax who were doctors asked helpful questions. The CDC folks seemed to be very open and honest with all of their answers.

Some folks actually test postive for the virus (per CDC) but have NO symptons whatsoever! :eek:

Happy Sailing! OCruisers :)

[adamsmark]

Aside from the fact the ship didn't even go to GC so it never happened, IF the Veendam had gone to GC and some passengers got off and went home, we STILL would have had absolutely no information that the ship MADE these people get off or that they did not medically need to be treated on land for their own benefit and were leaving the ship voluntarily.

This quote from RMSeadog says nothing about the ship throwing these people off unnecessarily.

[sail7seas]

I interpreted the statement the ship is sending them home to mean someone on the ship told them they were leaving.


I repeat that nowhere did I say that I independently have any knowledge whether it happened or not. If you prefer, call my conversation about it hypothetical. In effect, that probably is exactly what it is.

[RuffinReady]

Years ago I took a management course. Part of the course was the following: Line up a dozen students side-by-side. Then the instructor wispered a short message into the ear of the first student. The student had to wisper the message into the ear of the next one, and so on. At the end of the line the last student told the class what they had heard. The correct message had been posted on the board, without any of the participants able to see it. Guess what, there was very little relationship between the original message and what the last student in the line had said. :eek:

As we go thru life, this is a good lesson to remember.

Ruffin

[mariner]

Time to toss my two cents.

Would really not want to be a passenger on any of those planes that they're flying sick passengers home on. Can't see how that breaks the cycle.

It probably makes more sense to canel a cruise and sanitize the ship to the max.

Noro is common and planes and ships are prime targets (like nursing homes and schools) .

As for news coverage, planes land every day and we don't cover that. When one crashes, it's news. It's the same here. Thanks to cell phones, passengers (even healthy ones) call the local TV station and wail loudly. It's been my experience they're hoping the squeaky wheel will get some grease from the line.

However, the reports often neglect (or the line's spokesperson) fail to balance 250 out of 1200 pax and X number of crew.

[OCruisers]

Why is norovirus infection important for food handlers?People working with food who are sick with norovirus gastroenteritis are a particular risk to others, because they handle the food and drink many other people will consume. Since the virus is so small, a sick food handler can easily – without meaning to – contaminate the food he or she is handling. Many of those eating the contaminated food may become ill, causing an outbreak.


Probably this is why there were so many "Target Questions" on the CDC Questionnaire on when, where, and what we ate on specific days!

Happy Sailing! OCruisers :)