Itinerary change

[Oceanwench]

Maybe this has been posted and I missed it:

Has anyone else received a notice of an itinerary change for the Zuiderdam, EC cruises?
This is the e-mail I received this weekend:

Due to berthing conflicts, Holland America Ms Zuiderdam 7 Day Eastern
Caribbean Cruises Roundtrip Ft. Lauderdale itinerary has been modified. The affected dates are: Apr 23, 30; May 14, 28; Jun 11, 25; Jul 9, 23; Aug 6, 20; Sep 3, 17; Oct 1, 15, 2005.

Holland America's Zuiderdam will be switching Port of Call for the Tuesday
making the Port to Call Road Town, Tortola, British Virgin Islands from
8:00am - 6:00pm, and on Wednesday the Port of Call to St. Thomas, US Virgin Islands from 7:00am - 6:00pm. Also the Friday the Port to Call Nassau, Bahamas the ship will be arriving one hour earlier at Noon -
8:00pm.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused, we look
forward to welcoming you aboard Holland America.

Thank you for booking Holland America Cruises!

[oliviaonthe beach]

I am sooooooo upset at this news! One of our main reasons for choosing the Zui was for the long stay in St. Thomas so we could go to St. John with no worries. We are booked on the 7/23 sailing. Does anyone know if HAL has any obligation to allow me to cancel without penalty since they changed the itinerary? Not sure if I will or not, but it is a consideration...Would anyone recommend the Caribbean Princess over the Zui given the itinerary change? Also, I assume Half Moon Cay is still intact, right? That would be more than I could take!

[doone]

Half Moon Cay is still paradise, you will enjoy it. I would take the Zuiderdam just for the day at Half Moon Cay.

If you booked the excursion to St. John's through HAL, they'll take care of everything. If its an excursion you booked on your own, then your on your own as far as any penalties are concerned.

[localady]

`You can always cancel without penalty from HAL up to 75 days before the cruise. Some agents are now charging a cancellation fee.

[oliviaonthe beach]

Thanks for the suggestions. My dismay is completely centered around the fact that the original 8 A.M. to 11 P.M. stay in St. Thomas is what attracted us in the first place. We absolutely love St. John and want to have a leisurely day there. We also have no intention of taking shore excursions in Tortola and st. Thomas. We are familiar with the ferries and know where we want to go. One slight concern: I have been on several other cruise lines and never had a problem getting off the ships in a timely manner. Some previous posts seem to imply that only HAL spponsored excursion folks will be let off first. Has anyone exdperienced serious delays in the aforementioned ports on the Zui?

[dakrewser]

One slight concern: I have been on several other cruise lines and never had a problem getting off the ships in a timely manner. Some previous posts seem to imply that only HAL spponsored excursion folks will be let off first. Has anyone exdperienced serious delays in the aforementioned ports on the Zui?

When tendering, people on ship-sponsored excursions get priority but there's no problem in a docking port.

[doone]

My Zuiderdam cruise in March was supposed to be in St. Thomas til 11 pm. We loved that idea, but now its changed to 9 pm, which isn't bad, and now that we think about it, its plenty of time in St. Thomas. We'll be back onboard probably no later than 6 pm anyways.

I have been sailing HAL for well over 20 years, I have never experienced, that I remember anyways, any problems getting off the ship in a timely manner. Hope you find it the same.

[Krazy Kruizers]

If I remember correctly, HAL changed the Zuiderdam's schedule last year.

I copied down the new times as we didn't get an e-mail from HAL and will be on the Zuiderdam in May.

[Tak8]

I'm glad to find this out so far enough in advance. We are booked on a private tour in Tortola and have been able to re-schedule with this advance notice.
In comparing the Caribbean Princess. I enjoyed our Princess cruise and would sail with them again. I have not been on the Caribbean Princess, but a few of the reasons I decided to return to the Z. are: being able to get to Tortola (have heard a lot of great things about BVI) and less people (Caribbean Princess has over 1000 more people).

[rollie5]

They did the same thing last summer.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I though that I had remembered correctly.

[Chadzbrew]

Well this is my first cruise and we were planning a wedding on the long St. thomas day till 11pm. They did switch dates on us as well as shorten the time in port. Family has already booked flights into St. thomas, a day early now. Shouldn't HAl keep to their itinerary fixed? This is so frustrating!!!! Any Ideas

[dakrewser]

Well this is my first cruise and we were planning a wedding on the long St. thomas day till 11pm. They did switch dates on us as well as shorten the time in port. Family has already booked flights into St. thomas, a day early now. Shouldn't HAl keep to their itinerary fixed? This is so frustrating!!!! Any Ideas

Which departure date are you? If you're still beyond 75 days you could cancel and re-book a different way (another ship, fly in, etc.).

[MandyGirl]

Yes - HAL did this last summer to Zuiderdam but for many embarkation dates, never gave forewarning. They finally let people know that the itinerary would be switched through a certain date. Here's one thread (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=48835) and another (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=54327). Luckily passengers now have some sort of heads-up for future dates of changes.

Chadzbrew - Sorry about it messing up your wedding plans like that. We married in St John on a cruise and I know I have posted numerous times on various boards that with the schedule of the Zuiderdam it would be an awesome itinerary to book for a USVI wedding due to the long day in St Thomas (particularly if you are hoping to marry on St John). The Zui seemed to be the only ship sailing from the mainland US with such an extended time in St Thomas - making it perfect for having a non-rushed wedding day in an absolutely beautiful location. You can still do it though. :) The one thing to keep in mind with a cruise wedding is the fine print of the cruise contract... that they can change the itinerary at any time for any reason. It was a risk we faced when marrying on a cruise - so I too know the fear of the unknown. (I definitely breathed a big sigh of relief when we stepped off the ship on our wedding day!) Fortunately though we had our guests with us and didn't have to deal with airfares like you are (and I've flown into STT - I know it's not cheap). Good luck!

[joycruiser]

We are booked and paid to go on April 23. I was so glad I logged in tonite and saw this post! We too were so looking forward to a long day at St. Thomas (spending the day at St. Johns and shopping at nite in St.Tom)

I immediately called my TA about this change and ask if we could change dates (haven't booked airfare yet) and found out that I have until midnite tonite to make any changes. Seems the change goes into effect with my week. eeewww

Well, while the TA was checking into Feb, March, and April dates for me-I was checking airfare. Oh my goodness!!!! Airfare got worse and worse with the price and times!! Best I could get was $200.00 more pp than the fare I've been keeping my eye on for April 23.

We are keeping April 23 and I booked the non stop air tonite too! to be safe.
I really hope that everyone has a chance to make a change if they need to.

joy

[Chadzbrew]

Seems like the whole "Bait and Switch" worked for 2004 as this is what they are doing for summer 2005 as well. It seems as though this is how HAL operates. I plan on rebooking with a company with integrity!

[tterryj50]

Just checked th HAL website and the "switch" is now reflected in the Zuiderdam's itinerary. We got lucky (so far). We depart 4/9/05 and are still scheduled to depart St. Thomas at 9:00pm. We too booked this cruise for the 9:00pm departure to give us a more leisurely time on St. John. I guess next HAL will be selling there cruises at local carnivals where doing this type of business is expected. This type of info should be posted on other boards to allow the greatest amt. of people to know what type of company they are dealing with. Hit HAL where it hurts, in the pocketbook. What do long time HAL cruisers think of this new business practice by HAL?

[dakrewser]

Chadzbrew and tterryj50, perhaps I'm dense, but I don't see where it's to HAL's advantage to switch itineraries - perhaps you could enlighten me?


Cruise itineraries get changed for many reasons few of which have anything to do with screwing over the passengers, many of which are beyond the control of the cruise lines. But, please, tell us where you get youbr inside information that this was done solely to cause you pain...

[tterryj50]

I don't think you're dense, possibly a stockholder, but not dense. As I stated, by falsely advertising a longer day in St. Thomas, I'm asuming more people than myself chose this cruise to allow them more time on St. Thomas thereby making this cruise more attractive than others. I use the term false advertising because, from what I gather, this is the second year that HAL has engaged in this practice. At the very least, Holland should allow people to opt out of this cruise with no penalty.

[doone]

When something like this happens, itinerary changes, I think HAL, and any other cruise line, should explain the reason for the change. I think people will understand more if they are upfront in the beginning. Its not only HAL doing this, other lines have done it in the past, it happened to a friend of mine on, I think it was NCL. By leaving HAL and booking with another line, just be aware, it could also happen on that line as well.

People think that when something happens that they don't like on the line they have booked, this type of thing is exclusive to that line, its not, it can happen on any line.

BUYER BE WARE.

[anngie]

doone, I think you are exactly right. When the itinerary is arbitrarily changed it makes you wonder why. You have already made your plans and cannot help but be disappointed.
Since our whole itinerary was changed twice in the last week before our last cruise my husband and I have really lost a lot of interest in cruising. :confused:

[doone]

Anngie, please don't be discouraged, sail for the ship, not the islands. I always figured if I was that interested in an island, I would fly there and stay, not cruise there. Either way, with cruising, you always know your time is limited at the ports. It is disappointing when its cut short and no explanation as to why. Go and enjoy cruising, ports, IMHO, are a bonus.

[Giorgi-one]

Please note that if you are trying to get off the ship early in St. Thomas, you will have to pass thru immigration on the ship before you are allowed to get off. Each floor is assigned a time beginning around 7 AM. It goes pretty quickly.

[shipcafe]

Just curious as to what there is to do after 6PM in St. Thomas? ... I've been there until 6 or 7 and everything seemed to die down after 5PM when the tours are back. IMO I wouldn't want to be wandering around after 7 or 8 PM anyways ... (?)

[dakrewser]

I don't think you're dense, possibly a stockholder, but not dense. As I stated, by falsely advertising a longer day in St. Thomas, I'm asuming more people than myself chose this cruise to allow them more time on St. Thomas thereby making this cruise more attractive than others. I use the term false advertising because, from what I gather, this is the second year that HAL has engaged in this practice. At the very least, Holland should allow people to opt out of this cruise with no penalty.

You seem to be under the impression that when posting the itinerary the line knew they woudn't be able to keep to it. I've seen no evidence of that. We have seen that some HAL cruises have stayed late in St. Thomas (and I'll ask along with ShipCafe - why would you want to? There are islands with vibrant nightlife that would warrant the late sailing, but St. Thomas?).

I agree it would be well to let people know why it happens, but if it's done to placate or appease the port authorities it might seem best to the line to keep mum and "stand the gaff" rather than risk alienting those who control their access to the ports even more.

[Orcrone]

It would be nice to know why the change occurred. However, I find it highly unlikely that HAL purposely inflated the time in port to raise demand for the cruise, knowing full well they were going to change it later. The port time at St. Thomas for my Zuiderdam cruise in March had the ship leaving at 11 PM. It's now sailing at 9 PM. To infer that this change is a "bait and switch" is ridiculous. Aside from which, how many people would book the cruise because of the 11 PM departure, but would have walked away from a 9 PM departure?:rolleyes:

[michmike]

typical HAL apologist responses again to folk's legitimate concerns. Why is it that a person with a complaint is always wrong and HAL is always right?

I think the posters were fairly clear that part of the attraction was an unrushed day in St John. Now as to the wedding, well that is a dicey move.. too many things that can go wrong.

But we WERE in St Thomas until 11 pm in November on Volendam and that allowed us to spend the morning shopping in St Thomas, to have lunch there, take the ferry to Red Hook, do a nice tour of St John (our first visit) and then have a leisurely dinner at the Banana Tree Grill at Bluebeard's castle, overlooking the lights of the harbor and the city below. Didn't get back to the ship until nearly 9. It was wonderful.

AND it was part of the reason we booked that itinerary. I think HAL has been doing this long enough that they should be able to put out a reliable itinerary. Acts of God are another matter, as are mechanical malfunctions. But it seems as if this same thing happened last summer. Surely HAL should have allowed for that?


Lord save us from the "you couldn't POSSIBLY have been on the same ship I was on" attitude from the HAL faithful everytime someone dares to mention that the emporer has no clothes.

this from someone who has cruised on HAL the last 4 times out but has seen the experience diminish in small ways each trip.

[dakrewser]

But we WERE in St Thomas until 11 pm in November on Volendam

And that was exactly my point - the ships do, whenever possible, stay with the original itinerary. As I and others stated, it would be best to explain the change - but that's not always possible. And it isn't always because of weather or mechanics, either. Every cruise line wants every ship to stop in St. Thomas - the pax love it's duty-free shopping benefits. There are only a limited number of slots for ships. OTOH, it could be Tortola that presents the problem.

So far no one has come up with a plausible explanation of why this change would benefit HAL - it obviosly has PO'ed at least some passengers. Perhaps you could enlighten me?


You ask: "Why is it that a person with a complaint is always wrong and HAL is always right? " And I answer, they're not. It's simply a matter of what the point being made is, and where the burden of proof lies. I sympathize with those who have to change their plans, I really do. But imputing evil motives to the cruise line does nothing to engender further compassion and tends to get the poster painted as a crank.


And it is quite possible for two people to have entirely different experiences on the same cruise.

So which "HAL apologist " were you talking about?

[Tak8]

I do a cruise partially for the ship and what it has to offer and partially for the itinerary. Although it doesn't affect me, I can see where the longer port stay (till 9 or 11) would be advantageous for some passengers. Most of the popular cruiselines do not stop in the BVI during the summer season. In the past, I have looked at cruises that had longer St. Thomas time with the intent of going to someplace in the BVI. Now that the Z. has Tortola on it's itinerary, it doesn't matter to me, but that's another reason some people may want longer port time. I have read several posts on the St. Thomas board of passengers wanting to go to BVI destinations and they have normally been told that 6pm is too tight, but 9 or 11 would not be a tight schedule.

[Giorgi-one]

[QUOTE=dakrewser]

So far no one has come up with a plausible explanation of why this change would benefit HAL - it obviosly has PO'ed at least some passengers. Perhaps you could enlighten me?QUOTE]


You must be joking!!! How about 5 more hours of Casino operation and 5 more hours of open shops?

[dakrewser]

You must be joking!!! How about 5 more hours of Casino operation and 5 more hours of open shops?

I might be willing to consider that if the itinerary was changed for every cruise. It isn't. How do you explain that?

[Chadzbrew]

A change from 11 pm til 9pm I could deal with and work with, however the change is from 11pm departure to a 6 pm departure. A 5 hour change is significant. I just want HAL to tell the truth. Not only is it a change of time, but a day different altogether. I was lucky enough to cancel and book through Princess on the same day, due to wedding plans. It was cheaper to take the cancellation hit on the cruise than to lose my deposit for photographer, videographer, minister, reception etc...

[shipcafe]

Again, though, what is available in STT to do from 6pm - 11pm? I would be missing out on dinner, shows, etc. on board the ship. I also really enjoy the sunset sailaway from St. Thomas - very impressive with the other ships in port. Sailing at nearly midnight would not provide such an effect.

[Giorgi-one]

I might be willing to consider that if the itinerary was changed for every cruise. It isn't. How do you explain that?

I have never been on a cruise (14 of them) where the ship has left port after 6 PM. I have never been on a Europrean cruise and I know they stay later to accomodate sightseeing. Probably would not get too many people booking European/Meditteranean cruises if they left port at 5 PM.

I was on the Z last summer and am booked for next summer. St. Thomas departure was changed on both cruises, so as far as I am concerned it is changed for every cruise. Note that I could care less if we leave St. Thomas at 6 PM or 11 PM.

[dakrewser]

[QUOTE=ChadzbrewI was lucky enough to cancel and book through Princess on the same day, due to wedding plans. It was cheaper to take the cancellation hit on the cruise than to lose my deposit for photographer, videographer, minister, reception etc...[/QUOTE]

Good for you. I do hope everything goes smoothly for you. Weddings are hard enough to coordinate when they happen in your home town!

I still don't understand the "I just want HAL to tell the truth" line, though. Where were you lied to? Itinerary changes happen all the time on all cruise lines, it's simply the nature of the industry which is at the mercy of both nature and multiple political issues. That may be why cruising isn't everyone's cup of tea. But then (outside of a mug of Lipton's) what is? :)

[michmike]

Again, though, what is available in STT to do from 6pm - 11pm? I would be missing out on dinner, shows, etc. on board the ship. I also really enjoy the sunset sailaway from St. Thomas - very impressive with the other ships in port. Sailing at nearly midnight would not provide such an effect.

at least 5 of us on this thread (myself, oliviaonthebeach, chadzbrew, joycruiser and tterryj50) have indicated that being in St Thomas past 6 pm WAS an issue for us. Does that make us wrong? If you chose to be on the ship in the evening for the show and dinner that's fine. As for the sailway enjoy that in another port.

Dakrewser - you've been on these boards far longer than me. Surely you've seen it time and again where someone who had a problem or concern with some facet of their cruise with HAL was virtually called a liar.

I agree completely with you, that two people can have very different experiences on the same cruise. I just don't understand why when someone does relate such an experience so many others feel compelled to question the veracity of it or to chalk it up to the poster's negative attitude toward life in general; and to opine that he or she went into the trip looking to nitpick and clearly succeded.

[Chadzbrew]

To everyone who has said "What is there to do in ST T. after 6 anyways". It is not what there is to do, it is more of what time do we need to be back on the ship. For those that cant figure out what to do with their time on ST. Thomas here is what we had planned (If we werent planning a wedding). Take Godfrey tour until 4pm then take ferry over to St. John and explore. Take the 9PM ferrry back to the cruise ship. Now we would have to decide whether we wanted to see st. thomas or St. John.

On another note

I don't think its a stretcth to say that HAL has had problems filling the Zuiderdam. At first all the negative comments from early cruisers, then the feeling from many old time HAL customers that wasn't the ship for them. Look at the prices and you will see what I mean. HAL has had to cut the Z prices significantly on many occassions. People here have noted that they were able to pay so little for a S or SS Suite.

So you have a ship that has trouble selling - besides price, what else could HAL do but improve the itinerary. So they offer this great 8am - 11pm port time for St Thomas - advertising it for all unsuspecting potential buyers to see and suck people in. They sure got me - and several others from this thread. That 11pm departure time was the deciding factor in my choice.

But then HAL starts not delivering on their promise. They don't tell people until a few weeks before their cruise if that. Some have been told on board - sorry we have an itinerary change.

And they don't even change port times in Tortola - still leaving at 5 or 6 - even though a couple of folks on a raft could float from Tortola to St Thomas in the same time overnight it takes HAL to move the 30 miles.

This is no simple error or coincedence IMO. HAL knew or should have known there was a problem. Yet they keep doing it.

Everyone should stand their ground and not let HAL get away with this. File your complaints with the applicable agencies. Contact HAl and let them know your displeasure over this bait and switch tactic. It is wrong. Just plain wrong.

[dakrewser]

I agree completely with you, that two people can have very different experiences on the same cruise. I just don't understand why when someone does relate such an experience so many others feel compelled to question the veracity of it or to chalk it up to the poster's negative attitude toward life in general; and to opine that he or she went into the trip looking to nitpick and clearly succeded.

But I didn't see any of that on this thread. I mean, no one suggested that the itinerary hadn't changed and that the OP was somehow mistaken, right?

And I don't think Steve (Shipcafe) was being antagonistic - he really was wondering what there was to do after dark in StT, if anything. Inquiring minds want to know! :rolleyes:

[Oceanwench]

Don't shoot the messenger!

I was the OP and copied in the itinerary changes sent to us by our TA ... just to let people know, or to see if anyone had received a similar notice. Didn't mean to start WW III!

The change in St. T/Tortotla days has only mildly inconvenienced us as far as plans, and I've taken care of it.

I know some people who cruise b/c they want 7 blissful days at sea -- they never get off in the ports. They've been there, done that etc.
I also have friends who cruise b/c of the ports and feel cooped up on sea days! To them, it's all about the adventures they can have in the various ports the ship visits. They plan their cruises by the itineraries offered, not staying with one specific line.

So I can understand why some people are disappointed with a change in itinerary -- and some aren't.

As far as Michmike's comment on criticism ... I remember once on this board I posted that I'd seen people in jeans in the dining room on the Zui.
I had several people *almost* call me a liar and insist I saw no such thing!

[dakrewser]

As far as Michmike's comment on criticism ... I remember once on this board I posted that I'd seen people in jeans in the dining room on the Zui.
I had several people *almost* call me a liar and insist I saw no such thing!

Well, on the Zuiderdam, sure - you're liable to see anything on that ship! :rolleyes:




<really, just a joke! Nothing to se here folks, move along now......>

[KAKcruiser]

I don't know why HAL changed the itinerary but my guess would be because of the number of ships in St. Thomas. Sometimes it is just too crowded. I don't think they originally planned it this way just to sell the cruise with the intention of changing it after they had enough bookings. I'm sure there was a reason for this change. It would be good if they said what it was to put everyone's mind at ease.

[Golfgrl1911]

I'm only disappointed because I was very excited about getting some great sunset photo's from Paradise Point. I guess I'll just have to move there to get them. That doesn't sound so bad actually! Coral World is looking for a hostess this week according to the St. Thomas on-line classifieds....sounds like a perfect stress free job to me! Nancy

[MandyGirl]

Two things I see (just my opinion):

(1) HAL making the same change as last summer for Zui
Regarding threads from last summer along the same topic - here's one thread (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=48835) and another (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=54327)...
Last summer, cruisers were coming back and reporting the port switch here on CC. The switch was not advertised in advance from HAL (no prior emails for booked guests, no update on website - see those threads I linked to see posting dates - there's more but I just linked those two). After weeks and weeks, posters started getting the impression that maybe HAL was swapping ports, yet the HAL website never reflected the swap until much later. Then someone contacted HAL and was lucky enough to get an email reply and share it here on CC. (And eventually others received replies as well - I think they are on those threads) It was well into the summer (July?)- after multiple changed itineraries - that something "official" came from HAL to say "okay - we're switching ports" such as those emails posted in the threads above. Even then, the emails did not match the HAL website itineraries (why?). I, like many, could not understand why HAL would switch ports week after week after week, yet not show the correct itinerary on their website or notify booked passengers - but the communication eventually caught up. As "superstein" stated on those threads linked above, it was a bait and switch in his opinion. HAL Zui seemed to be the only ship sailing from mainland US with such an extended time in St Thomas - a key factor in booking for various cruisers who shared their concerns. We got lucky and our November Zui cruise remained STT followed by Tortola. We were one of those who chose the itinerary over the ship. Yes, I know the fine print on any cruise contract states that ports can change for any reason at any time - but if you know that it's going to change week after week after week... then communicate that change through an effective tool such as your company website (itineraries on HAL's website). HAL dropped the ball with that last summer regarding communicating (in my opinion).

On a positive note, at least this year HAL is communicating the change in advance :) whereas last summer, the communication came much later in the summer after several switched cruises had already taken place. But a change that affects multiple sailings like that for this year - was the decision just made? How recently? Did HAL know they would be making the change again like last year?

(2) Time constraints
What is there to do that people want the later departure time? St John. :)
Hourly ferries back to Red Hook until midnight. Enjoy St John without having to take a 4:00 ferry and get back by 5:30 "last call" for 6:00 departure. Enjoy the beach bar on St John after a day of beach-hopping, where Kenny Chesney has popped in to play some tunes while vacationing in his home there on St John. (Have you heard his new CD?) Rent a dinghy for the day on St John and turn it in by 5:00... then take a later ferry back. Enjoy a sunset at Trunk Bay after the many hundreds of other cruise passengers have already deserted the beach. Share a romantic dinner at Asolare, ZoZo's or Stone Terrace with an awesome view. Have time to hike the Reef Bay trail. Rent a jeep and explore the unbeaten path - and maybe have time to snorkel with hawksbill turtles at Salt Pond Bay south of Coral Bay. "St John Feet, Fins & Four Wheel Drive" by Pam Gaffin has many more tidbits of hiking, jeep trails, and snorkeling that most people tend to miss on a short cruise stop. Immerse yourself in the beautiful laid back culture of St John.
Okay - now I need to go back to St John. Cruising gives passengers a very small taste of an island they may want to return to visit. Land vacations in St Croix (2001) and St John (2002) led to a cruise wedding on St John in 2003. All started by our first visit to the area... on a cruise.

As a side note regarding weddings: cruise weddings are picking up in popularity. Reading the wedding boards here on CruiseCritic, brides/grooms are marrying from a variety of ships on various cruiselines. The only ones who have come back to post a problem with their wedding: those marrying in hurricane season and one who did experience a ship mechanical problem. However, every bride/groom knows the risk, but based on other wedding message boards, that risk has been relatively small... until a cruiseline makes an itinerary change such as this. Still a risk, but there are many, many happy brides (and grooms) sharing stories here on CC's wedding boards. With the advertised port times of 8A-11P... it is very easy to see why someone would choose HAL Zuiderdam and marry in St Thomas or St John. USVI legalities are simple and the beaches that God made are beautiful there. Our families had wondered why we were not marrying at church, but after we took them to St John on a cruise, they understood.

(Sorry it got long...)

[Giorgi-one]

I don't know why HAL changed the itinerary but my guess would be because of the number of ships in St. Thomas. Sometimes it is just too crowded. I don't think they originally planned it this way just to sell the cruise with the intention of changing it after they had enough bookings. I'm sure there was a reason for this change. It would be good if they said what it was to put everyone's mind at ease.

If the Z is already docked in St. Thomas, what does the number of ships have to do with leaving at 6 PM or 11 PM?

[tterryj50]

Very good reply Mandy, if this doesn't "enlighten" darkcrewser I give up>

[Golfgrl1911]

It would seem to me that the locals would rather have staggered docking times to eliminate mass cruise passenger business and keep that business a bit more steady. If my ship were to arrive a few hours later and stay later I'd have no qualms about it. But of course I do not work in the cruise industry so I don't profess to understand how it works. :confused:

[dakrewser]

Very good reply Mandy, if this doesn't "enlighten" darkcrewser I give up>

Enlighten me about what? I saw those threads the first time around.

Is HAL's web site screwed up? Usually.

Do itineraries change for various reasons? Sure do.

Is this "bait & switch?" Better have good evidence 'cause that's a criminal offense.

Did anyone ever actually call HAL to follow up on this? Not that I can see in hundreds of postings.

[Golfgrl1911]

Dave you bring up an interesting point with your last comment. My question is..What would happen if ALL or as many as we could reach with this thread who are affected by this change made complaint calls to HAL about the change? Does anyone think that they would make an attempt to go back to the origional itinerary to appease the customer? Just a thought... Perhaps, as stated before..If HAL had given an explaination as to why consistantly for 2 years they have made this change.. it would be easier to understand. Nancy

[DavidNDC]

I'm going on the Zui May 14, so I've found this thread very interesting. There was one comment posted that caught my eye. I am wondering if anyone can illuminate:

The comment:

<<I don't think its a stretcth to say that HAL has had problems filling the Zuiderdam. At first all the negative comments from early cruisers, then the feeling from many old time HAL customers that wasn't the ship for them. Look at the prices and you will see what I mean. HAL has had to cut the Z prices significantly on many occassions. People here have noted that they were able to pay so little for a S or SS Suite.>>

This has not been my experience. There are three of us paying like $1,100 each for the "semi-suite," I think it is SS. No butler service, no Neptune room, but hey, I don't care. Basically, I think we are getting is a room that is a bit larger than a regular veranda. And this is fine for me -- it really is. But isn't $3,300 kind of a standard rate for this room? It doesn't sound to me like the Zui is exactly starving for passengers.

I got a balcony on the NCL Spirit on a five-day cruise for $550 per person, two people. Now THAT was a deal!

[KAKcruiser]

I was under the impression that HAL switched the days on St. Thomas and Tortola in addition to the time difference. That is why I figured they made the change because there were too many ships in port in St. Thomas on the originally scheduled day. When HAL was originally scheduled to go to St. Thomas first, they needed a very short time to sail to Tortola so they could leave late. When they changed the schedule to arrive in Tortola first and St. Thomas next, the earlier departure time from St. Thomas was probably necessary to arrive at the next port (Nassau) on time.

[dakrewser]

Dave you bring up an interesting point with your last comment. My question is..What would happen if ALL or as many as we could reach with this thread who are affected by this change made complaint calls to HAL about the change? Does anyone think that they would make an attempt to go back to the origional itinerary to appease the customer?

Without knowing why the change occured, there's no way to tell. I'm sure that if it was within HAL's control they would revert to the original itinerary - it would make the most sense.

[MandyGirl]

Is HAL's web site screwed up? Usually.

Do itineraries change for various reasons? Sure do.

Is this "bait & switch?" Better have good evidence 'cause that's a criminal offense.

Did anyone ever actually call HAL to follow up on this? Not that I can see in hundreds of postings.

- I wonder if HAL could possibly look at ways to improve the accuracy of it's company website since it apparently has problems?:confused: An internet supervisor knew of these problems last summer (his comments pasted on this (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=54327&page=3&pp=25) thread, post #57).

- We all know itineraries can change, but two years in a row on the same ship with the same two ports on multiple sailings covering a span of six months this year... and only 2 months warning for April cruisers?:confused: It's surprising (to me) HAL had no idea after last summer's switchings that the same exact switchings would need to occur again beginning this April, but apparently those things happen.

- "bait & switch" was a term used by superstein in his post linked in the thread I referenced from last July. I'm sorry - I didn't realize it was a criminal offense - I just thought it was a term he used. (I'm a math teacher and not very familiar with corporate law :( but seem to learn something new everyday:) )

- No, I personally never called HAL last summer, as other CC posters would call HAL and get one answer... and then receive an email from an online comment that contradicted the phone answer. However, I had copy/pasted the contents of two emails I received from "Jim, Internet Department Supervisor, Holland America Line". Dates of the emails: 7/21/04 (two) and 7/22/04 (the third email dated 7/22 was just a follow-up thanking me again for sharing my concerns). In a reply to him I had referenced specific CC threads and he thanked me for providing the CC links regarding people receiving different info via phone, email, and website (contents here (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=54327&page=3&pp=25) on replies #52 and #57) But again, I did not call. Only emailed. That's just the way I prefer to do things because having something in writing (email) helps jog my memory if I forget a detail. :)

Reason for change??
Just trying to put two and two together and thinking out loud here...
The original post on this thread for 2005 said "Due to berthing conflicts".
The reply I had last summer said "the change of day allows us to berth at the cruiseship terminal, as opposed to the cargo dock".
Based on the OP's email and the email I received last summer, it seems to tie back to the number of berths available in port during the summer months. For STT we've docked at Havensight, Crown Bay (11/04), and tendered on previous cruises. Tortola we docked with another HAL ship. Neither email really specified which port (or both) was experiencing "berthing conflicts" during the months April-October. So that info might help us decide our Thanksgiving cruise as we are researching it now.

[anngie]

Mandy Girl, have you wondered why the cruise line would change their departing time? There are no other ships in port at that time of night. Could it be because they are trying to save money by paying a cheaper port charge? In that case if the PAX have paid the port charge that included staying until eleven o'clock would not they be due a refund?
We looked at this cruise last year and almost booked it. We found out just by reading this board that the itinerary had been changed. We were so glad that we had not spent our money on the cruise because the late stay in St Thomas was the main reason that we were considering it. In our reasons to book a cruise, the itinerary is at least 60%. We used to sail on an old ratty ship that is no longer in service, The Regal Empress, mainly because of it's great itineraries.

[Silverfox]

We sailed on her last May and our days were switched between Tortola and St. Thomas, too. Although it may be an inconvenience, when we later heard how many ships were in port on the original date, it was so nice to be there the following day when we only had 2 other ships in port.

And the reason we were told that the time was changed for departure, was for security reasons. There had been a few incidents of both passengers and crew experiencing unsafe situations once it got dark. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, but that is what a crew member told us.

Safety is always a concern for the cruiselines and it is best to change the schedule if it isn't good.

Be glad the cruiseline is looking out for your enjoyment by not being at a port when it is extrememly crowded, and also changing the time of departure according to what is safe.

[Chadzbrew]

This is the site I used to determine where ships are- http://www.cruisecal.com/dnn/

[wannago30]

I will enjoy my cruise even with the shortened time in St. Thomas, with that being said they changed the times right after we made a final payment. I understand that things may be out of the cruise lines control. I booked for the time in St. Thomas, not the only reason but one of the major contributing factors. It seems like Holland America does this frequently and that leads me to believe that there is a little bit of an integrity problem with the cruise line itself. I will again say we will have a great cruise no matter what, but I still am not happy with the way it happened. Weather factors are one thing, dissapointing but understandable. Advertising a 11pm then 9pm and then 6pm seems like it could of been avoided. Just honest thoughts.

[Oceanwench]

Did anyone ever actually call HAL to follow up on this? Not that I can see in hundreds of postings.

DH was going to call, but as the e-mail said "due to berthing problems," he figured the customer service people would tell him, "It's due to berthing problems."

Knowing the nitty gritty of what those problems are doesn't help, nor change the fact that the itinerary has been changed.
I can't say I am bothered by it as much as others, but that's because I wasn't planning anything special in the evening on St. Thomas.

Someone along the line mentioned that only the times were changed.
No, days were changed as well for St. Thomas and Tortola.

As far as "bait and switch," I think the term has come to have a more common usage these days. I don't think anyone is accusing HAL of having criminal intent!

Bottom line in cruising: There are no guarantees with itineraries. Yes, you can choose a certain ship based on its itinerary, but you always have to keep it in the back of your mind that your port might be skipped ... due to weather or mechanical problems ... or even "berthing problems."

It's like going to the Magic Kingdom and finding out that Space Mountain is shut down for maintenance. You deal with it, and go on having fun.

[MandyGirl]

Mandy Girl, have you wondered why the cruise line would change their departing time? There are no other ships in port at that time of night. Could it be because they are trying to save money by paying a cheaper port charge? In that case if the PAX have paid the port charge that included staying until eleven o'clock would not they be due a refund?


Anngie - Interesting - I had not thought of that - but it had originally been midnight before changing to 11:00 and then 9:00. Seeing this new thread appear this week and reading that people think they had seen the same scenario last summer, I piped in to reference the exact threads. (Then I kept following the thread).

As far as an earlier departure time, the first email I posted (in post #52 on that other thread (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=54327&page=3&pp=25)) had this from HAL internet supervisor:
"Our original departure time of 12:00 midnight has been scaled back one hour -- that has been the only change to my knowledge -- likely due to the accommodate for the need to leave the pier well before midnight in order to avoid being charged a pier fee for the subsequent calendar day which begins at midnight. "

Maybe that helps clarify when the port charges are assessed? But it seems now they have all been advertised as 11:00 versus midnight.

With regard to the overall swap - I've also wondered if maybe they are doing more additions to Crown Bay that prohibit ships from docking there in these upcoming months. :confused: I have not noticed anything on the local USVI boards, but wondered if that could be the possible "berthing conflict". Havensight holds three ships I believe, and I think someone said Crown Bay will hold two?

Either way, this thread has just reminded me to keep an open mind for researching our next Caribbean cruise. :)

[Linda&Vern]

And the reason we were told that the time was changed for departure, was for security reasons. There had been a few incidents of both passengers and crew experiencing unsafe situations once it got dark. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, but that is what a crew member told us. Safety is always a concern for the cruiselines and it is best to change the schedule if it isn't good. Be glad the cruiseline is looking out for your enjoyment by not being at a port when it is extrememly crowded, and also changing the time of departure according to what is safe.
Just last week a business associate of mine told me this exact same thing. He had visited the St. John/St. Thomas area over the Holidays this year and someone he knows who lives there insisted he and his family not go anywhere after dark unless the local accompanied them because of what the local called "unsafe" situations.

[cruzingqueen]

Just last week a business associate of mine told me this exact same thing. He had visited the St. John/St. Thomas area over the Holidays this year and someone he knows who lives there insisted he and his family not go anywhere after dark unless the local accompanied them because of what the local called "unsafe" situations.

I am in federal law enforcement based in the States. My counterpart is based in St. Thomas and has frequently made comments that he goes straight home when he gets off duty. He has discussed a high rate and likelihood of restaurant robberies in the evenings. I have often thought of putting in for this assignment when he leaves next year, but being female, was told it is probably not a good idea. ALSO, the stores in St. Thomas close up at 5PM regardless of how many cruise ships are in port which I have always found strange. Safety may have alot to do with HAL's decision.

[Giorgi-one]

If it is really a safety issue, why doesn't HAL just say so. I believe that most passengers would understand this reason for a change. I personally would never want to be near the port in ANY Caribbean island after dark or after the crowds leave.

[Orcrone]

If it is really a safety issue, why doesn't HAL just say so. I believe that most passengers would understand this reason for a change. I personally would never want to be near the port in ANY Caribbean island after dark or after the crowds leave.I can understand them not stating that reason, if that truly is the reason. You don't want to advertise that a port is not safe. Also, may there be some libel issues if they make statements like that?

[michmike]

anyone have some REAL info re safety in St Thomas after dark? Think this is being overhyped. Where are the statistics? Anyone actually know of anyone who had a problem?

Any of you ever been out after dark in LA? New Orleans? Chicago? NYC? Paris? Sure you need to use some common sense and not go wandering back alleys or flashing big wads of money.. but that makes every bit as much sense during the day as well.

Get a grip. If you stay after dark and go to a restaurant or bar in St Thomas and have them call you a taxi (which they will gladly do), and you return to the ship you're not anymore likely to have a problem than you would in the cities listed. Get a grip!!

We had a wonderful dinner in November after dark in St Thomas and wouldn't have missed it for the world. AND escaped unscathed to tell the story..

But hey.. I spend my days working with convicts.. so maybe have a greater tolerance for risk.

[dakrewser]

anyone have some REAL info re safety in St Thomas after dark?

According to one travel site (http://www.11thhourvacations.com/li_display.php?loc_id=568):

"Safety is a concern on St. Thomas, particularly in Charlotte Amalie. Petty theft and more serious crimes such as muggings and rape do exist here. In tandem with the rest of the world, drugs, poverty, and plain old bad guys affect the crime rates.

Having said that, the dangers on St. Thomas are no more frequent or harsh than in many urban areas throughout the world. The problem, given the balmy days and welcoming locals, is that tourists can be lulled into a false sense of security.

Be smart, there can always be trouble in paradise. Never walk deserted beaches at night, even though the moonlight and lapping waves are appealing. Don’t venture into unknown areas of Charlotte Amalie at night, or into several areas during the day (the Paul M. Pearson Garden housing complex, Harris Court near Nelson Mandela Circle by the Havensight Mall, lower Kronprindsens Gade, and Hospital Ground at Sugar Estate and off Sugar Estate Road).

Use a taxi when traveling around Charlotte Amalie at night to minimize your chances of getting lost. Lock your valuables in the hotel or room safe. When going to the beach, keep your rental car locked and don’t leave items alone on the beach. "

To paraphrase one poster (oh, that's right, it was you!) - "typical [island] apologist responses again to folk's legitimate concerns. Why is it that a person with a complaint is always wrong?"

[michmike]

dakrewser - think the info you posted pretty much echos my suggestions re common sense after dark.

and there is a big difference between contradicting what someone says happened to THEM and questioning the accuracy of reports from a friend of a friend.

I've yet to see any reports that any cruise ship passenger was robbed, raped or pillaged by simple virtue of being in St Thomas after dark. For those that don't want to take that chance.. get back on the ship before dark.

Then again, don't know about HAL but have read reports of rapes aboard Carnival ships. Are we safe anywhere?

[michmike]

for further info go to the Carnival board and type in the word "rape" in the search line and then click on the thread "rape and man overboard"

[Oceanwench]

According to one travel site (http://www.11thhourvacations.com/li_display.php?loc_id=568):

"Safety is a concern on St. Thomas, particularly in Charlotte Amalie. Petty theft and more serious crimes such as muggings and rape do exist here. In tandem with the rest of the world, drugs, poverty, and plain old bad guys affect the crime rates.

Having said that, the dangers on St. Thomas are no more frequent or harsh than in many urban areas throughout the world. The problem, given the balmy days and welcoming locals, is that tourists can be lulled into a false sense of security.

Be smart, there can always be trouble in paradise. Never walk deserted beaches at night, even though the moonlight and lapping waves are appealing. Don’t venture into unknown areas of Charlotte Amalie at night, or into several areas during the day (the Paul M. Pearson Garden housing complex, Harris Court near Nelson Mandela Circle by the Havensight Mall, lower Kronprindsens Gade, and Hospital Ground at Sugar Estate and off Sugar Estate Road).

Use a taxi when traveling around Charlotte Amalie at night to minimize your chances of getting lost. Lock your valuables in the hotel or room safe. When going to the beach, keep your rental car locked and don’t leave items alone on the beach. "

To paraphrase one poster (oh, that's right, it was you!) - "typical [island] apologist responses again to folk's legitimate concerns. Why is it that a person with a complaint is always wrong?"




Sounds exactly like Fort Lauderdale!
When we lived there, DH and I would marvel [from the safety of our car] at how people would wander around the high crime areas. We always figured they were tourists who had no idea there was trouble in paradise.

Um ... sounds a lot like a lot of places -- not just St. Thomas.
What about New Orleans? High crime rate, no? That's what a native told me.
Yet people wander the French Quarter at night.

What about Orlando? Lots of petty theft, mugging, etc. etc.

St. Thomas is no worse, I am betting, than many places.
On the Oosterdam last Nov., we were in Cozumel till after dark -- may 9:30 or so.

OH ... just remembered this: We were on the Zuiderdam in Nov. 2003 and rough weather prevented us from calling on St. Martin.
Instead, we docked in St. Thomas a day early --> arriving in the evening.
Lots of people left the ship that night to visit the island.
We were docked there overnight and all the next day.

[MandyGirl]

I guess if St Thomas is really getting bad then cruiseships would start pulling out... just like they did in St Croix. I've taken a land vacation on St Croix (and the following year on St Thomas / St John) but like in any city - either on vacation or where I live - I'm a cautious traveler. I know there are places here locally I wouldn't go to at night (or day!) even if I had someone with me. I would hope cruiseship passengers use common sense in ports just like they would when traveling to any other city.

But I agree - if HAL is swapping Tortola and St Thomas due to safety issues (resulting in shorter time in St Thomas) it would be appreciated by many for the honesty. Would I still take a land vacation in the USVI? You betcha!:)

[cruzingqueen]

anyone have some REAL info re safety in St Thomas after dark? Think this is being overhyped. Where are the statistics? Anyone actually know of anyone who had a problem?

Any of you ever been out after dark in LA? New Orleans? Chicago? NYC? Paris? Sure you need to use some common sense and not go wandering back alleys or flashing big wads of money.. but that makes every bit as much sense during the day as well.

Get a grip. If you stay after dark and go to a restaurant or bar in St Thomas and have them call you a taxi (which they will gladly do), and you return to the ship you're not anymore likely to have a problem than you would in the cities listed. Get a grip!!

We had a wonderful dinner in November after dark in St Thomas and wouldn't have missed it for the world. AND escaped unscathed to tell the story..

But hey.. I spend my days working with convicts.. so maybe have a greater tolerance for risk.

Well, if one of my coworkers who is a federal agent, carries a gun and has training in defensive tactics, still does not feel comfortable going out on this island after dark where he is familiar with the area and the people....I don't feel comfortable either. I will be there without my weapon since I'm on vacation and will stand out like a sore thumb as a tourist. Just don't want to have any mishaps to ruin a good vacation.

[DNCButler]

Well, it's been a long time since I saw a thread that angered me as much as this one. No you do not get money back because you are shortened by 2 or 4 hours in a port. If you do not get to that port AT ALL, then you are entitled to that portion of your port charges back. I just called 6 couples that I have booked on this ship and advised them of the changes and they were just glad that they were told about it. Does that mean that someone else should feel the same way, no and I don't think I read that anyone was saying that (at least not the people that have been accused of it). And what's with all this elitist crap? I happen to love HAL but that doesn't make me a snob. And if I were to agree with Dakrewser would that make me a bad person too? It just seems to me that some people are just trying to insult other people here just for the fun of it. Is it that you aren't face to face with them so manners go right out the door? And sorry to say this but if certaing people on this thread go to another cruise line then for sure I'm staying with HAL! Flame away.

[SHayesShip]

I was on the "Z" in April/04 and we were told while onboard that we would be switched. The reason given BY THE CAPTAIN in written form the day of boarding was because there were so many ships in port with the original schedule that we would have had to tender to shore. By switching the port days we only had one other ship in port in St. Thomas - which was great!

I was inconvenienced because I had a car reserved from Budget and was meeting relatives who were on the Caribbean Princess. Needless to say this did not happen.

KAKcruiser - you are correct. Whether it was Tortola or St. Thomas - whichever the second port in order, they must leave earlier to get to Nassau in time.

I do wish we had been told earlier.

Steve Hayes

I was under the impression that HAL switched the days on St. Thomas and Tortola in addition to the time difference. That is why I figured they made the change because there were too many ships in port in St. Thomas on the originally scheduled day. When HAL was originally scheduled to go to St. Thomas first, they needed a very short time to sail to Tortola so they could leave late. When they changed the schedule to arrive in Tortola first and St. Thomas next, the earlier departure time from St. Thomas was probably necessary to arrive at the next port (Nassau) on time.

[Golfgrl1911]

Why is HAL the cruiseline that has to change itineraries? This was my question last Sept. when it was changed for apparently the same reason. It seems that HAL is willing to roll over when it comes to changing itineraries. Are we (HAL customers) not as important as Royal Caribean, Princess, Carnival or any of the other 6-8 ships in port that day? I'm not trying to start anything it just seems that for two years in a row HAL is the line that takes this **** without regards to their customers.

[dakrewser]

Why is HAL the cruiseline that has to change itineraries? This was my question last Sept. when it was changed for apparently the same reason. It seems that HAL is willing to roll over when it comes to changing itineraries. Are we (HAL customers) not as important as Royal Caribean, Princess, Carnival or any of the other 6-8 ships in port that day? I'm not trying to start anything it just seems that for two years in a row HAL is the line that takes this **** without regards to their customers.

Half-empty or half-full? Many would appreciate being in port with one or two other ships rather than six or seven...

[dakrewser]

Take a look at this thread (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=135515). Evidently Celebrity wants to be just like HAL! :rolleyes:

[Ziggy7]

Just a little FYI, we were on the Zuiderdam last year when they had to change port days and times. We were told and confirmed by our tour guide, that the St. Thomas and Tortola Port Authorities were concerned as to the number of ships in port on thoses days, and requested the ships change days. By the Zuiderdam changing their schedule (which by the way is posted almost a year in advance) we were in port with alot less ships, and less people on the streets and shops. Our time was shortened in St. Thomas due to the increased mileage we would now be traveling to our next port, as it was farther away. So blame HAL if you want, but I also think the islands are not without blame, the over book too many ships and then make changes to the cruiselines, knowing the ships will still call on these ports because this is where pax want to go. Oh we also never made it to Grand Caymen due to hurricane Charlie, which is why we booked a back to back cruise, was to go there too, but we made the best out of our cruise and it was the most wonderful time ever! :)

[wander]

Golfgrl1191,

Or, maybe HAL is the only one that is thinking of their passengers and the value in being there with fewer other ships in port.

Glass half full or half empty?

[Golfgrl1911]

Dave & Wander,
I see what you all are saying. I too would rather be in a less crowded environment(seems to be the case as I get older). However why in the world do they appear to be dangling the carrot to get people to book by stating a later itinerary then suddenly pull back and change it? From what I've read alot of customers booked FOR the later stay. Apparently HAL knew what the situation was last year when this happened. So why did they advertise the exact same itinerary that they ended up changing again? I will survive by not being in St. Thomas until 11:00 p.m. I just feel for the people that booked weddings and such then have to scramble to change their plans. They are the ones feeling the sting. Being relativly new to cruising I have learned a valuable lesson from this though...be flexible...anything can change! Nancy

[Ziggy7]

Dave & Wander,
I see what you all are saying. I too would rather be in a less crowded environment(seems to be the case as I get older). However why in the world do they appear to be dangling the carrot to get people to book by stating a later itinerary then suddenly pull back and change it? From what I've read alot of customers booked FOR the later stay. Apparently HAL knew what the situation was last year when this happened. So why did they advertise the exact same itinerary that they ended up changing again? I will survive by not being in St. Thomas until 11:00 p.m. I just feel for the people that booked weddings and such then have to scramble to change their plans. They are the ones feeling the sting. Being relativly new to cruising I have learned a valuable lesson from this though...be flexible...anything can change! NancyIt's also that old saying you can't please everyone all the time. Or Darned if you do and darned if you dont, glad I dont have to make those decissions hehehe :)

[Mikkjim]

I just have to say I'm pretty upset about the itinerary changes in St Thomas. We have a wedding planned for this day, which was supposed to be the 3rd of May. We booked with HAL because of the long stay in St Thomas. I was even in the process of having beach towels embroidered for my guests with our wedding Date. Not to mention all of the invitations, wedding registries have been done with that date as our wedding date. I've just decided there is nothing that I can do and to just "go with it" I can't control what HAL is going to change. But I wonder if I should forgo the wedding date thing on our towels just in case the decide to change it again......I can only control my own outlook on it. However, it really does suck. Another frustration is we haven't gotten a good reason on why it was changed. My wedding coordinator - who is contracted by HAL wasn't even informed of the change. When I contacted them they were in disbelief. UUGGGGGGG.

I really want this wedding to go well .....:eek: :confused: :confused: :confused: