Mazatlan criticizes Holland America for dropping calls

[tcook052]

http://travel.usatoday.com/cruises/post/2011/12/mazatlan-cruise-holland-america-call/591165/1

Tourism officials in Mazatlan, Mexico, are criticizing Holland America for dropping calls at the town through March.

In a statement sent to USA TODAY, Mazatlan Tourism Trust spokesman Julio Birrueta says the safety concerns the line is citing in canceling visits over the next three months are unfounded.

[Hlitner]

This is an interesting development. The publicity about Mexico is devastating to their tourism business and in many cases unfounded. The crime in most cruise ports, and specifically against tourists, is less then one encounters in Mexico. There have been no cruise ship passengers killed in Mazatlan, but there was a 14 year old cruise ship passenger (female) shot to death last year near Coki Beach, St Thomas. No cruise ship or cruise line stopped going to St Thomas (which has a real crime problem) but they quickly stop going to places like Mexico. Strange.

Hank

[Krazy Kruizers]

I remember that incident in St Thomas.

No cruise line stopped going to St Thomas -- nor did they stop offering tours to Coki Beach / Coral World.

[Harry1954]

Unfortunately, IMHO, Mexico has a systemic problem that will not be resolved by complaining and blaming tourists' fears on their economic woes. HAL was quite within their rights to cancel these stops ... no one I know wants to go to Mexico with what we perceive as anarchy reigning.
The Mexican government is to be faulted .... period.
One of our daughters got married in Mexico some years ago and all our family and friends flew down - what a wonderful time ... and the locals in both cities were just wonderful - but that was then and this is now ...
It is too bad, but it is the right business decision.
harry

[KirkNC]

Unfortunately, IMHO, Mexico has a systemic problem that will not be resolved by complaining and blaming tourists' fears on their economic woes. HAL was quite within their rights to cancel these stops ... no one I know wants to go to Mexico with what we perceive as anarchy reigning.
The Mexican government is to be faulted .... period.
One of our daughters got married in Mexico some years ago and all our family and friends flew down - what a wonderful time ... and the locals in both cities were just wonderful - but that was then and this is now ...
It is too bad, but it is the right business decision.
harry

Exactly, if you want people to come, I suggest you create an environment that would make them want to go. You could not pay me to go anywhere in Mexico right now.

[Hlitner]

We agree with most of the above comments. However, a different standard is being applied to Mexico then ports elsewhere. Crime has become a major problem on many Caribbean islands, but this fact is often ignored by the press and the cruise lines. The press paints Mexico with a broad brush that is not applied to other ports and countries. Holland American's Rotterdam recently (last month) called at Alexandria, Egypt and ran excursions to Cairo. If anyone has watched the recent news things are not so great in Egypt...but yet HA went to that port. Cruise ships routinely call at Key West despite a very high crime rate in Detroit! Does that make sense? Yes, about as much sense as cancelling Mazatlan because of violence elsewhere in Mexico. A cruise excursion was held-up at gunpoint last year on the island of St Kitts (nobody was hurt). Some cruise lines skipped this port for a couple of weeks and then it was back to business as normal. What we find strange is that while some cruise lines have cancelled visits to Mazatlan those same lines continue to call at Acapulco....which is truly a high crime city.

Hank

[tcook052]

Unfortunately, IMHO, Mexico has a systemic problem that will not be resolved by complaining and blaming tourists' fears on their economic woes. HAL was quite within their rights to cancel these stops ... no one I know wants to go to Mexico with what we perceive as anarchy reigning.
The Mexican government is to be faulted .... period.

Sorry but it isn't that simple to me as at the root of the problem is the drug trade and huge demand for those products from the large U.S. market.

For years the Mexican government was IMHO rightly to be faulted for doing next to nothing to confront the matter head-on but now that they finally are the bad guys are unsurprisingly escalating the violence using billions in illicit profits and creating the perception many like you and HAL are buying as reality.

I'm all for safety but IMHO it's more about the perceptions than the reality at the moment.

[falcon10156]

... The press paints Mexico with a broad brush that is not applied to other ports and countries. Holland American's Rotterdam recently (last month) called at Alexandria, Egypt and ran excursions to Cairo. If anyone has watched the recent news things are not so great in Egypt...but yet HA went to that port. ...
Hank

I wouldnt go to Egypt now on my own but if the ship stopped and I had not already been there I would. I was there last Sept on the Prinsendam. I felt very safe.

We drove in a convoy to Cairo from Port Said (I understand they did this from Alexandria too). They closed the roads in Port Said for us. All the buses and private tour vehicles travelled together. We had armed personnel (either army or police) escorting the whole convoy to Cairo. They changed up the escort in Ismalia and made sure we were all together. We had an armed plains clothes guard (with AK-47 so I was told - I know it was an assault rifle as all on our tour saw it) on our bus. They driver also had a handgun (that I know) he could have had something else. I heard that our tour guide had a weapon too.

I never felt unsafe. Our armed guard even walked around the pyramids keeping an eye on our group. On the way back all busses met up to go back in convoy the same way. (I believe earlier this year at some point one of the HAL ships bypassed Egypt on one sailing though, when the whole country was in turmoil with the 18 day - 2011 Revolution to dispose of Murbarak.

In regards to Mexico, I dont know if they could do this. I am not sure if you can trust all police and security in Mexico at this time so I would take precautions and not go to Mexico.

I trust HAL or any other cruise line that they would not knowingly put passengers in danger and if they cancel a port (althoug it maybe one I really wanted to see) I would respect that. If HAL has chosen not to go to certain ports in Mexico (and they are not the only cruise line that has made this decision over the past few years) then they must have concerns.

[Ine]

I agree with Hlitner. Crime at other cruiseports sometimes is much higher then in Mazatlan or any Mexican port.
Tourists are and have been very safe in those Mexican ports.
Shootings happen also allover Europe and places in the caribean and yes also in the USA, also mostly among drugs criminals, seldom against tourists.
Much depends how it is mentioned in the press or shown on TV that often gives the wrong impression.
As long as the demand and supply last for drugs it will be a worldwide problem.

[tcook052]

I wouldnt go to Egypt now on my own but if the ship stopped and I had not already been there I would. I was there last Sept on the Prinsendam. I felt very safe.

We drove in a convoy to Cairo from Port Said (I understand they did this from Alexandria too). They closed the roads in Port Said for us. All the buses and private tour vehicles travelled together. We had armed personnel (either army or police) escorting the whole convoy to Cairo. They changed up the escort in Ismalia and made sure we were all together. We had an armed plains clothes guard (with AK-47 so I was told - I know it was an assault rifle as all on our tour saw it) on our bus. They driver also had a handgun (that I know) he could have had something else. I heard that our tour guide had a weapon too.

I never felt unsafe. Our armed guard even walked around the pyramids keeping an eye on our group. On the way back all busses met up to go back in convoy the same way.

In regards to Mexico, I dont know if they could do this. I am not sure if you can trust all police and security in Mexico at this time so I would take precautions and not go to Mexico.

Sorry but to me that makes no sense to me as sending guests with heavily armed guards doesn't seem to me to be overly cautious about security as HAL has said in dropping Mexican ports. I agree with Hlitner that the standards apllied to Mexico aren't the same as elsewhere.

[falcon10156]

Sorry but to me that makes no sense to me as sending guests with heavily armed guards doesn't seem to me to be overly cautious about security as HAL has said in dropping Mexican ports. I agree with Hlitner that the standards apllied to Mexico aren't the same as elsewhere.

There are alot of robberies on the road to Cairo to single travellling vehicles so they take precautions. People want to go to Egypt and HAL is not the only cruise line that takes these precautions. Even private land tours take the armed guard safety issues. It may even be a policy for large groups. Not sure.

from celebrity site "Coaches are required to travel in a police-escorted convoy and sometimes will be subjected to certain security requirements and possible delays."

from Princess site "Board your air-conditioned motorcoach at the port of Alexandria and travel in convoy along the scenic road to Giza, approximately 3 hours away."

These are just two which list the convoy. Must be a government thing.

[tcook052]

There are alot of robberies on the road to Cairo to single travellling vehicles so they take precautions. People want to go to Egypt and HAL is not the only cruise line that takes these precautions. Even private land tours take the armed guard safety issues. It may even be a policy for large groups. Not sure.

Yes and that's exactly what I'm saying; the safety concerns applied to Mexico are not evenly applied elsewhere including Egypt. Would guests expect to visit Mazatlan under armed guard? No, not likely so why is it okay in one destination and not the other if the yardstick is minimizing guests exposure to violence?

FWIW I've been to Egypt a few times and know what you're describing.

[TraelorMex]

"Unfortunately, IMHO, Mexico has a systemic problem that will not be resolved by complaining and blaming tourists' fears on their economic woes. HAL was quite within their rights to cancel these stops ... no one I know wants to go to Mexico with what we perceive as anarchy reigning.
The Mexican government is to be faulted .... period.
One of our daughters got married in Mexico some years ago and all our family and friends flew down - what a wonderful time ... and the locals in both cities were just wonderful - but that was then and this is now ...
It is too bad, but it is the right business decision."

Well harry, you got one thing right: "it is the right business decision" is correct. And make no mistake, the cruise lines cancelling of any port, especially Mazatlan, is a BUSINESS (read, money) decision...only. HAs absolutely nothing to do with 'pax safety'...

[Sir PMP]

Mazatlan criticizes Holland America for dropping calls


Mazatlan is just a dirty old port, so who cares...

[LordSpain]

The population of Mazatlan is 438,434. With 326 murders reported through December 13, 2010, that produces a murder rate of 74 per 100,000 in 2010 - if there were no more murders in December. The city with the highest murder rate in the US is New Orleans, at 52 per 100,000.

If the U.S. Virgin Islands were an independent nation, it would have one of the highest murder rates in the world. The record 66 homicides committed across the territory in 2010 is 10 more than in 2009, and makes the Virgin Islands is the most violent place in the United States, on a per-capita basis. The territory has about 110,000 residents, according to the latest projections, which means the Virgin Islands' per-capita homicide rate is 60 homicides per100,000 people.

IMHO more important than the murder rates, is where we go, what we do and how aware and sensible we are when we visit any of these places.

Bruce

[cruzboss]

Mazatlan criticizes Holland America for dropping calls


Mazatlan is just a dirty old port, so who cares...
I actually love Mazatlan, the old church,downtown, the beach walk, I also love Mexico and never felt unsafe the last 5 years, took public transportation in Cabo and Puerto Vallarta...

Relax people you are on vacation, just look around you as you would at home. Isn't it what its all about when you are traveling abroad????

[Sir PMP]

I actually love Mazatlan, the old church,downtown, the beach walk, I also love Mexico and never felt unsafe the last 5 years, took public transportation in Cabo and Puerto Vallarta...

Relax people you are on vacation, just look around you as you would at home. Isn't it what its all about when you are traveling abroad????

Yes, I have been there, and like I said it's just a dirty old port, why would you go to a place to have a filthy taco and being shot at the same time..

[tcook052]

I actually love Mazatlan, the old church,downtown, the beach walk, I also love Mexico and never felt unsafe the last 5 years, took public transportation in Cabo and Puerto Vallarta...


Agree completely.

[GeriatricNurse]

Yes, I have been there, and like I said it's just a dirty old port, why would you go to a place to have a filthy taco and being shot at the same time..

Has this ever happened to you? :confused: Could be please quote an accurate source that would indicate how many times people who have been eating a "filthy" taco in this "dirty old port" have been shot? ;)

[raindropsalways]

Now that everybody has self determined if it is safe or not to visit Mazatlan, has anybody actually determined why Hal cancelled visits? My speculation would be the fact that the Insurance Companies refuse to cover the port. The available insurance (or lack thereof) has a bearing on what the ship lines do.


For the highly opinionated sterile bunch, I wish to share with you that as a whole, the Mexican people are very clean, especially their foods. The fact that their facilities could use some extreme improvements and some of their meals may not look that inviting, does not in any aspect have anything to do with cleanliness.


Betty

[iancal]

I have to agree with many posters. Although some parts of Mexico are not safe, many where tourists often go are quite safe. We would feel much better about going to certain parts of Mexico than we would going to Jamaica (which we avoid).

And here at home in North America, it was not that long ago that two British tourists were murdered in Miami. Philadelphia, with it's fairly small population, expects to top 300 plus murders this year....a decrease of about 18-20 percent from last year.

[SwissMyst]

Mazatlan criticizes Holland America for dropping calls


Mazatlan is just a dirty old port, so who cares...

The Centro Historico of Mazatlan has undergone a fabulous restoration. Know of which you speak. It was our favorite stop and we looked forward to returning again. And again. Great restaurants and crafts shopping in the Centro Historico - a very worthy cruise destination. And the restoration of the elegant opera house now puts this district on the concert season map. http://www.google.com/search?q=mazatlan+centro+historico&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OU73TrK_LcbPiALAktWEDQ&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=628

[dobiemom]

I actually love Mazatlan, the old church,downtown, the beach walk, I also love Mexico and never felt unsafe the last 5 years, took public transportation in Cabo and Puerto Vallarta...

Relax people you are on vacation, just look around you as you would at home. Isn't it what its all about when you are traveling abroad????

The Centro Historico of Mazatlan has undergone a fabulous restoration. Know of which you speak. It was our favorite stop and we looked forward to returning again. And again. Great restaurants and crafts shopping in the Centro Historico - a very worthy cruise destination. And the restoration of the elegant opera house now puts this district on the concert season map. http://www.google.com/search?q=mazatlan+centro+historico&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OU73TrK_LcbPiALAktWEDQ&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=628
Mazatlan is also my favorite Mexican Riviera port. I hope it's back on itineraries soon.

[Hlitner]

Yes, I have been there, and like I said it's just a dirty old port, why would you go to a place to have a filthy taco and being shot at the same time..

From my perspective this is a good description of LA...not Mazatlan :)

Hank

[lorekauf]

The Centro Historico of Mazatlan has undergone a fabulous restoration. Know of which you speak. It was our favorite stop and we looked forward to returning again. And again. Great restaurants and crafts shopping in the Centro Historico - a very worthy cruise destination. And the restoration of the elegant opera house now puts this district on the concert season map. http://www.google.com/search?q=mazatlan+centro+historico&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OU73TrK_LcbPiALAktWEDQ&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=628
I agree, that area is very nice. It has changed a lot over the last few years. One of my colleagues took me to see the opera house last year at this time. I really enjoyed it.

[Himself]

When this port cleans up its act I am sure HAL will be back.

[Sir PMP]

From my perspective this is a good description of LA...not Mazatlan :)

Hank

I don't see the difference, do you?

[aidansaunt2004]

I personally, do not want to travel to Mexico. We've cruised the Western Caribbean and the only port we felt safe in was the Cayman Islands. The locals were friendly and very honest. We weren't approached by people asking for money, nobody "scoped" us out and we weren't harassed by anyone.

In Cozumel, it was a completely different story. There were armed "Guards" on every corner. That may make some people feel "safe" but if you look at the bigger picture, it's scary. What is going on that is causing guards to be on the corners with guns? The drug "wars" in Mexico are widespread and it's all VERY violent. I can't tell you how many times I've heard how someone was murdered by the drug cartels.

We know someone who is originally from Mexico and his family still lives there. He goes back home to see them every year. He said it's scary. He has a long bus ride and the bus is stopped EVERY time by the drug cartels and they get on the bus to "check" out everyone. This is coming from someone from Mexico. If he thinks it's not safe, I believe him.

Many tourists only see the sandy beaches etc. when they're on vacation. I try to see the whole picture. I've been to St. Thomas as well. I think it's a slightly scary place.

The original poster brought up the death of a 14 year old girl but didn't bother to say what actually happened. I KNOW what happened because I read a lot of articles regarding it before I booked our vacation. There had been a gang related act of violence between rivals and someone died. Well it just so happened that the day the little girl was shot was the day of his funeral. The bus didn't detour even though they knew about the funeral taking place. Needless to say they drove through the neighborhood of the funeral and there was a gang related shooting taking place. The rivals were shooting at one another and one of the bullets hit the bus and hit that little girl. It isn't the same type of situation in my opinion. "Gangs" can be anywhere, but Mexico is known for violent drug activity.

I would rather do my research and go somewhere that the general population feels is safe. HAL made a BIG decision that is affecting finances on both ends so you can bet there is a really good reason.

[RMLincoln]

If HALs itineraries aren't filling up becasue people are finding other itineraries that don't raise safety concerns for them, then HAL will stop cruising to those places.

Princess has a 5-sea-day stretch from Southern California to south of Mexico on the Panama Canal itineraries and a lot of people don't like that either. They are having trouble selling those too.

RCI gave up and stopped sailing out of LA.

It's $$$$. A business decision. It doesn't have to be logical or correlate to what happens in US cruise ports becasue that's not what drives the bookings. JMO. m--

[Christine Frances]

I wouldnt go to Egypt now on my own but if the ship stopped and I had not already been there I would. I was there last Sept on the Prinsendam. I felt very safe.

We drove in a convoy to Cairo from Port Said (I understand they did this from Alexandria too). They closed the roads in Port Said for us. All the buses and private tour vehicles travelled together. We had armed personnel (either army or police) escorting the whole convoy to Cairo. They changed up the escort in Ismalia and made sure we were all together. We had an armed plains clothes guard (with AK-47 so I was told - I know it was an assault rifle as all on our tour saw it) on our bus. They driver also had a handgun (that I know) he could have had something else. I heard that our tour guide had a weapon too.

I never felt unsafe. Our armed guard even walked around the pyramids keeping an eye on our group. On the way back all busses met up to go back in convoy the same way. (I believe earlier this year at some point one of the HAL ships bypassed Egypt on one sailing though, when the whole country was in turmoil with the 18 day - 2011 Revolution to dispose of Murbarak.

In regards to Mexico, I dont know if they could do this. I am not sure if you can trust all police and security in Mexico at this time so I would take precautions and not go to Mexico.

I trust HAL or any other cruise line that they would not knowingly put passengers in danger and if they cancel a port (althoug it maybe one I really wanted to see) I would respect that. If HAL has chosen not to go to certain ports in Mexico (and they are not the only cruise line that has made this decision over the past few years) then they must have concerns.

Sorry to pop in on this thread (following with interest) but I hope someone can answer my question:) If we were on the Prinsendam, we would not be covered for any insurance as Canada has had a travel warning in place for Egypt for many months "Avoid non-essential travel" Are US travelers still covered under policy's purchased in the US? Does the US Gov't have a travel warning in place? If covered in same circumstances I may have to do some shopping around for ins:D

[Typhoon1]

Mexico has been a constant thorn in the travelers side.

If the Mexican authorities were able to adequately protect the cruising public, maybe the cruise lines wouldn't be dropping those stops.

[nana51]

The trips to Mexico always seem to sell out so I don't think they stop going because of money, at least not directly. Can you imagine the lawsuit if someone was shot in Mexico from the cruise? The outcry would be huge. They would claim HAL knew it was dangerous and went anyway. That is the real reason I think they are pulling out.

[DFD1]

nana, I agree....and that's good enough reason. They would be foolish to knowingly leave themselves open to such a liability.

[lorekauf]

They should be pulling out of the Caribbean too because of violence. The real reason is money even though many refuse to believe it.

[sail7seas]

Money is a consideration of most decisions all cruise lines make. That is not surprising.

As to the armed guards on the corners in Mazatlan, what makes that different than armed pol ice in every American city? All our police officers/sheriffs are armed as they should be.

[tcook052]

The original poster brought up the death of a 14 year old girl but didn't bother to say what actually happened. I KNOW what happened because I read a lot of articles regarding it before I booked our vacation. There had been a gang related act of violence between rivals and someone died. Well it just so happened that the day the little girl was shot was the day of his funeral. The bus didn't detour even though they knew about the funeral taking place. Needless to say they drove through the neighborhood of the funeral and there was a gang related shooting taking place. The rivals were shooting at one another and one of the bullets hit the bus and hit that little girl. It isn't the same type of situation in my opinion. "Gangs" can be anywhere, but Mexico is known for violent drug activity.

I am the original poster but it wasn't me who brought that case up though it does call into question the supposed safety standards HAL applies to Mexico but not other destinations.

Also your contention that the shooting death of the young Carnival passenger was gang and not drug releated violence is simply wrong, dead wrong as the two go hand-in-hand and where you find one you'll find the other and it's isn't a problem Mexico is dealing with by itself in a vacuum.

Here's more:

http://stthomassource.com/content/news/local-news/2010/01/12/drugs-gangs-and-guns-fueling-caribbean-wide-crime-surge#skip

“The fact is that the Virgin Islands is a major drug transshipment point,” Francis said. “And where there are drugs, there are guns. And these guys have proven that they are willing to fight and willing to use violence for their turf.”

The U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime has linked the recent bloodshed to the surge in regional drug traffic, estimating that as much as 50 percent of all cocaine bound for the U.S. and European markets from South America transits the Caribbean.

Fighting over that commerce has spilled beyond the cartels and into the streets in places like the Bahamas, where 82 people were slain last year; and Puerto Rico, where more than 890 people were killed in 2009, according to the Associated Press.

From the Bahamas to Trinidad and Tobago, leaders in almost every island nation and territory of the Caribbean have been sounding the alarm as they’ve faced skyrocketing rates of murder and other violent crimes.

[Willsot]

On the NBC news the other night they reported that Iraq as a country was now considered safer to visit than Mexico. That kind of media exposure certainly does not contribute to the promotion of Mexico tourism.

[Ine]

On the NBC news the other night they reported that Iraq as a country was now considered safer to visit than Mexico. That kind of media exposure certainly does not contribute to the promotion of Mexico tourism.


Exactly what I mean, how and what is reported by the media.
NBC news probably seem to forget the bombattacks in Baghdad last Thursday with over 70 people killed. A small bomb also went off this morning with at least 4 more killings. These are civilians, not people involved in drugs.
I rather be in Mexico.
We are back in P.Valarta for another long winterstay and enjoying it very much. Driving around, shopping, etc. without any problems.

[Hlitner]

Since I was the poster to first mention the shooting in the Virgin Islands (not part of Mexico) of a 14 year old female cruise ship passenger, and since there are some trying to question my comments, I thought it proper to expand on this incident. It had nothing to do with driving through a "bad neighoborhood" and the "gang related" comment (made by another poster) was true in that it was a gang-related killing caused by drugs (much of the drug activity is indeed done by gangs). Here is a quote on the incident and its location,

"Coki Beach is well known as a location for drug sales, thefts, and gang violence. There have been numerous reported violent crimes at Coki Beach. Carnival was well aware of these violent crimes," the family's complaint said.

Those that know St Thomas will realize that not only do cruise ships continue to call at St Thomas, but they also have cruise line excursions to Coki Beach. Here is a link to info on that incident:
http://www.cruiselawnews.com/2011/06/articles/maritime-death/virgin-islands-daily-news-parents-of-14-year-old-girl-killed-in-coki-point-sue-carnival-cruise-line/

My point in posting this reference was simply to point out that cruise lines have their personal agendas (money) that drive decisions on which ports (and how long to stay) and crime does not seem to be a major factor in their decision-making. If crime was truly a big issue they would quickly eliminate many Caribbean ports such as St Thomas, St Croix, and certainly Jamaica.

Hank

[iancal]

It would be naive to assume that the cruise line based their decisions on anything but monetary considerations.

I suspect that it is based on how much port tax is 'rebated' back to them, the excursion revenue and the retail stores referral revenue is vs. what they could realize from another port or a from a sea day.

Given the amount of jewelry shopping and excursions available in St. Thomas I can well imagine that the cruise lines would be very reluctant to elimate a stop like this-safety or no safety issues.

[SwissMyst]

It would be naive to assume that the cruise line based their decisions on anything but monetary considerations.

I suspect that it is based on how much port tax is 'rebated' back to them, the excursion revenue and the retail stores referral revenue is vs. what they could realize from another port or a from a sea day.

Given the amount of jewelry shopping and excursions available in St. Thomas I can well imagine that the cruise lines would be very reluctant to elimate a stop like this-safety or no safety issues.


Hmmmmmm. Mazatlan seemed singularly devoid of Del Sol and Diamonds International shops ...... do you suppose? Naw. Though I was surprised to see them up in Skagway too. What on earth did they have to do with Alaska I thought? Naive me.

BTW: I finally did sucker in for some clear Del Sol fingernail polish on HMC no less, that changes color from clear in the sun to a pale rose - great for winter toes.

[aidansaunt2004]

Just because you're a drug dealer does not mean you own guns and just because you own guns does NOT mean you are a drug dealer. By that standard since we have a gun, I guess we're into drugs too :rolleyes:

There is a specific event I'm referencing, which was mentioned earlier where a 14 year old girl was shot. What you posted is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the death of that girl which was previously brought up. There are drugs everywhere, however Mexico is having a MAJOR problem dealing with the cartels and they are acting out violently. It would be one thing if 10 people were killed because of drugs but in one city alone nearly 200 people have died this year. That is a huge deal. :eek:




I am the original poster but it wasn't me who brought that case up though it does call into question the supposed safety standards HAL applies to Mexico but not other destinations.

Also your contention that the shooting death of the young Carnival passenger was gang and not drug releated violence is simply wrong, dead wrong as the two go hand-in-hand and where you find one you'll find the other and it's isn't a problem Mexico is dealing with by itself in a vacuum.

Here's more:

http://stthomassource.com/content/news/local-news/2010/01/12/drugs-gangs-and-guns-fueling-caribbean-wide-crime-surge#skip

“The fact is that the Virgin Islands is a major drug transshipment point,” Francis said. “And where there are drugs, there are guns. And these guys have proven that they are willing to fight and willing to use violence for their turf.”

The U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime has linked the recent bloodshed to the surge in regional drug traffic, estimating that as much as 50 percent of all cocaine bound for the U.S. and European markets from South America transits the Caribbean.

Fighting over that commerce has spilled beyond the cartels and into the streets in places like the Bahamas, where 82 people were slain last year; and Puerto Rico, where more than 890 people were killed in 2009, according to the Associated Press.

From the Bahamas to Trinidad and Tobago, leaders in almost every island nation and territory of the Caribbean have been sounding the alarm as they’ve faced skyrocketing rates of murder and other violent crimes.

[sail7seas]

Exactly what I mean, how and what is reported by the media.
NBC news probably seem to forget the bombattacks in Baghdad last Thursday with over 70 people killed. A small bomb also went off this morning with at least 4 more killings. These are civilians, not people involved in drugs.
I rather be in Mexico.
We are back in P.Valarta for another long winterstay and enjoying it very much. Driving around, shopping, etc. without any problems.


Whether it's more killings or less killings, death is dead.

Who wants to go on vacation and worry about where exactly are the drug lords fighting today? :eek: Many of us have no interest in keeping track of how bad or less bad the violence is this week vs. last wek and hope it will be better next week.

Too many other places to go where we have a much higher expectation to be safe if we use common sense and don't do something dumb.

[tcook052]

Just because you're a drug dealer does not mean you own guns and just because you own guns does NOT mean you are a drug dealer. By that standard since we have a gun, I guess we're into drugs too :rolleyes:

There is a specific event I'm referencing, which was mentioned earlier where a 14 year old girl was shot. What you posted is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the death of that girl which was previously brought up. There are drugs everywhere, however Mexico is having a MAJOR problem dealing with the cartels and they are acting out violently. It would be one thing if 10 people were killed because of drugs but in one city alone nearly 200 people have died this year. That is a huge deal. :eek:

Gimme a break. :rolleyes: Whether you chose to ignore it or not the available evidence points to armed gangs in USVI dealing drugs and innocents sadly getting caught in the cross-fire. Goodness knows why you think anyone should believe drug dealers don't use guns as it's plain nonsense and a wholesale disconnect from reality.

[SwissMyst]

Our own travel crimes to date (all in the past few years):

1. Pickpocket of wallet in Urumchi, China
2. Purse snatch in Antigua
3. Gold neck chain snatch in Capetown, South Africa
4. Foiled pickpocket attempt in Palermo, Italy
5. Mexico -three cruises: zero

[Sir PMP]

Our own travel crimes to date (all in the past few years):

1. Pickpocket of wallet in Urumchi, China
2. Purse snatch in Antigua
3. Gold neck chain snatch in Capetown, South Africa
4. Foiled pickpocket attempt in Palermo, Italy
5. Mexico -three cruises: zero

Oh, that's sounds really convincing....not...

[Ine]

Whether it's more killings or less killings, death is dead.

Who wants to go on vacation and worry about where exactly are the drug lords fighting today? :eek: Many of us have no interest in keeping track of how bad or less bad the violence is this week vs. last wek and hope it will be better next week.

Too many other places to go where we have a much higher expectation to be safe if we use common sense and don't do something dumb.

Indeed death is death, but there is a difference where, when and why.

[sail7seas]

:eek: I, for one, certainly hope the where or when is not when we are cruising and certainly not the why or how to be caught in a drug lord fight.

[SwissMyst]

Oh, that's sounds really convincing....not...

Not to you. Facts cannot trump anecdote.