Women and children still First?

[world~citizen]

During lifeboat drills I have never heard mention of gentlemen standing aside for women and children to seat in lifeboats first. It never comes up.

I note that in the Concordia, some of this was going on according to accounts until panicked men reportedly rushed around and over everyone to secure a position.

Perhaps the question is more poignant if there is a list and one bank of lifeboats is inoperable.

Could a man take a seat if other women were left onboard? Could a woman leave without her husband? Of course there is no question about children.

Despite the new improved and very just equality of the sexes, I suspect the old tradition prevails.

Is it still women and children first?

[English_in_Spain]

I would also like to know what happens to the disabled/reduced mobility passengers. Do they get any help or priority?

I am not in a wheelchair, I use a walker/rollator, but I would have had real problems when the ship started to list. I would not have been able to stand let alone get to my lifeboat station.

[world~citizen]

I would also like to know what happens to the disabled/reduced mobility passengers. Do they get any help or priority?

I am not in a wheelchair, I use a walker/rollator, but I would have had real problems when the ship started to list. I would not have been able to stand let alone get to my lifeboat station.



Really good question.

Most people think in terms of an organized evacuation with minimal panic. It seems likely that in many situations as you are in fact, abandoning ship, things are not going to be terribly normal.

I would think people in wheelchairs would be in one tough spot.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I never really worried about how I would get to the lifeboat -- but now I am concerned as I, too, will be using a walker/rollator for the first time on a cruise.

[English_in_Spain]

I have been on 3 cruises since I had my mobility problems. In normal circumstances, most people are very helpful and considerate because I cannot use stairs, walk a distance, stand a long time or climb a steep incline.

What would happen in this sort of situation? DH is able bodied but is now in his mid seventies. Other passengers are not going to stop and help. Are crew members going to?

What would happen to people in wheelchairs if the ship were on its side and there was panic? How would they get to their lifeboats?

I have done many cruises but this incident has made me realise how vulnerable I would be.

Will it stop me cruising? No. But it has given me a lot to think about

[Krazy Kruizers]

My DH isn't able-bodied as he used to be -- so he would not be able to give me all the assistance that I need.

Not certain if the crew would be able to help as they have assigned places they have to be at during an emergency.

[trvlcrzy]

To answer the original question, the last time I attended a muster drill on a HAL ship (sadly, it has been too long... April 2010), the men were expected to stand closest to the wall, while women were positioned closer to the rail.

So, for those who have sailed more recently, is that still a part of the instructions? I've never been thrilled with being separated from DH, so I do my best to be in the 'back' of the women's section while he is in the 'front' of the men's section.

I have since sailed one Princess cruise, but they do the muster drill in lounges... where we are told to assemble for further instructions.

[sapper1]

To answer the original question, the last time I attended a muster drill on a HAL ship (sadly, it has been too long... April 2010), the men were expected to stand closest to the wall, while women were positioned closer to the rail.

So, for those who have sailed more recently, is that still a part of the instructions? I've never been thrilled with being separated from DH, so I do my best to be in the 'back' of the women's section while he is in the 'front' of the men's section.

I have since sailed one Princess cruise, but they do the muster drill in lounges... where we are told to assemble for further instructions.
It was done the way you describe on the Zuiderdam last August. I, too, make it a point to stand behind the women so I can stand right in front of my husband.

[feathersandnananose]

Women in front at the muster drill has nothing to do with "women first" - it's actually shorter people in front so everyone can see the life vest demonstration!

Barb in so cal

[CruiserBruce]

There is a clear announcement during the drill that people with mobility issues will be assisted at all times during an evacuation.

[tompeter]

A passenger from this ship was doing a phone interview on the news yesterday, and indicated "the staff was calm and helpful during the evacuation but the same could not be said for her fellow passengers who were pushing, shoving and acting horribly during the evacuation" Based on her observations it sounded like every person for themselves rather than W/C first...

[bcd2010]

I read in this forum that people with mobility issues should let "them" know (it's not always obvious, esp if there's no walker, cane, wheel chair, etc.), but I'm not sure who "they" are - front desk? crew member at the muster station? Anyone know?

[serene56]

A passenger from this ship was doing a phone interview on the news yesterday, and indicated "the staff was calm and helpful during the evacuation but the same could not be said for her fellow passengers who were pushing, shoving and acting horribly during the evacuation" Based on her observations it sounded like every person for themselves rather than W/C first...


I think in a real emergency this will always happen.

I have a few first timers going with me at the end of the month and needless to say they do not want to go now.

[Himself]

During lifeboat drills I have never heard mention of gentlemen standing aside for women and children to seat in lifeboats first. It never comes up.

I note that in the Concordia, some of this was going on according to accounts until panicked men reportedly rushed around and over everyone to secure a position.

Perhaps the question is more poignant if there is a list and one bank of lifeboats is inoperable.

Could a man take a seat if other women were left onboard? Could a woman leave without her husband? Of course there is no question about children.

Despite the new improved and very just equality of the sexes, I suspect the old tradition prevails

Is it still women and children first?




This is the way it is supposed to be and this is the way we line up in the muster drills.

[bellebaby]

My husband and I discussed this last evening. We decided I would go ahead to safety. He would stay behind and assist the disabled, elderly, women and children. He is able bodied, has first-aid training, and might be needed. It's just the right thing to do.

I sometimes travel solo. He hopes by helping others, someone might help me if I was alone and needed assistance.

BTW - I might take my 82 year old mother with me in Sept. I thought this incident would impact her desire to go. Not a chance. She said life is too short to worry. Be prepared and carry-on!

B

[Randyk47]

It's really hard to say how one is going to react in a situation. Unfortunately I've been involved, kind of being in the wrong place at the right time, in two serious events. One was a substantial earthquake and quite frankly people acted badly. It happened to be in a school and even after all the drills and practices it didn't come off that way and people, including the staff and teachers, literally ran over each other getting out of the building. Second was the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11 and people couldn't have behaved any better by helping one another and not panicking. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 28,000 evacuated the Pentagon that day and there were few injuries related directly to the evacuation process. In my mind it comes down to the perceived threat. In the earthquake there were windows exploding, pieces of the building falling, and the momentary but awful rumbling noise. It felt dangerous. In the Pentagon, at least in our section of the building, there was light smoke in the hallways but no visible fire and no other noises. I think other than the thought of more aircraft coming in there was no immediate notion of danger.

[readytocruiseagain!]

BTW - I might take my 82 year old mother with me in Sept. I thought this incident would impact her desire to go. Not a chance. She said life is too short to worry. Be prepared and carry-on!

B

Great attitude!

[serene56]

It's really hard to say how one is going to react in a situation.


I believed that I would be calm-- and wait out the emergencies.

When we had out earthquake a few months back-- the building swayed and made noise. I paniced- grabbed by pocketbook, got on an elevator, and then stood outside in Downtown where all the high rise buildings are.

\After all was over I realized my big mistakes. I do not think when in a panic

[Oceanwench]

I read in this forum that people with mobility issues should let "them" know (it's not always obvious, esp if there's no walker, cane, wheel chair, etc.), but I'm not sure who "they" are - front desk? crew member at the muster station? Anyone know?

Several years ago I interviewed a hotel manager aboard a HAL ship regarding various aspects of cruising for people with disabilities.
At that time he told me there are crew members specifically assigned to help those passengers who are disabled.
This, of course, was referring to those in HC accessible cabins, who fill out forms to let HAL know if they'll be bringing aboard wheelchairs, etc.

I know DH cannot walk and in an emergency such as the one that happened with the Costa ship, I have no idea how he would be able to get out of the cabin without assistance. And one crew member would not be sufficient to carry him.

[sail7seas]

=world~citizen;3

<SNIP>


Is it still women and children first?

I listen closely when at life boat drill despite the many times we have attended.

What I have heard said in recent drills has changed from the past and they now say words to the effect of:

Please have the tallest persons in the rear and those shorter in the front. Therefore, a taller woman would be in the rear at life boat drill and a shorter man toward the front.

I do not think boats are loaded children/women/men. I think the sensitivity and instinct most of us possess would automatically load a child with Mom into a boat before the lineback gent in the rear of the pack. What adult, able bodied person would not load the child? :eek:




My DH isn't able-bodied as he used to be -- so he would not be able to give me all the assistance that I need.

Not certain if the crew would be able to help as they have assigned places they have to be at during an emergency.

Several years ago I interviewed a hotel manager aboard a HAL ship regarding various aspects of cruising for people with disabilities.
At that time he told me there are crew members specifically assigned to help those passengers who are disabled.
This, of course, was referring to those in HC accessible cabins, who fill out forms to let HAL know if they'll be bringing aboard wheelchairs, etc.

I know DH cannot walk and in an emergency such as the one that happened with the Costa ship, I have no idea how he would be able to get out of the cabin without assistance. And one crew member would not be sufficient to carry him.


DH and I are able bodied but I had a conversation with a Captain about assisting disabled persons in an emergency and he said there are crew assigned to do just that. You should let the office know if you would require assistance and it is noted. Of course, if you are out of the cabin, they would not know where to find you. Hopefully you would encounter crew who would help or a responsible, decent person or persons who see your need and not have to be asked. We have to believe there are decent people who do decent things when they see a need. I have enough faith in fellow man to think two strong guys would pick you up and get you where you need to be.

And anyone who knows me here knows I am NO Pollyanna........ :o

[RuthC]

I have done many cruises but this incident has made me realise how vulnerable I would be.
Those of us who live alone, and have no family to rely on, already realize how vulnerable we are daily. It's not all that different on a ship.

We have to plan as best we can for emergency circumstances, do for ourselves to the extent we are able, then trust there will be help if and when the time comes that we need it.

Then we have to stop worrying about it and go on living. That's all we can do.

[nana51]

I think there should be help for those with mobility needs and children. Then mothers and fathers and then the single folk last regardless of age. I also would be willing to go last as my children are grown and I have no mobility issues. In this day and age it should be children and their moms first, disabled then no preference.

[mtnmommy]

Whenever we have done the lifeboat drill, the crew have asked my children to stand in front, with me directly behind them. My husband stands in the back. They also note that there are children at this lifeboat station.

[hvsteve1]

I believed that I would be calm-- and wait out the emergencies.

When we had out earthquake a few months back-- the building swayed and made noise. I paniced- grabbed by pocketbook, got on an elevator, and then stood outside in Downtown where all the high rise buildings are.

\After all was over I realized my big mistakes. I do not think when in a panic

Getting in an elevator during an earthquake? That is panic.

Some of the accounts of events on the Concordia make it sound as though, when the ship started to list, people ran in circles shouting, "We're all gonna die!" while watching the captain and crew wave goodby from the lifeboats. We'll have to await the formal hearings to see what really happened. There are a lot of confliciting reports and flat out misunderstaings. One that stood out to me was a published complaint that porters and the like were climbing into the lifeboats and taking control. I think these people expected to see officers at the helm. Who do they think is cross trained to operate these boats? They must be under the impression there is a dedicated "lifeboat crew" below decks just hanging out and waiting for the ship to sink.

[jtl513]

Women in front at the muster drill has nothing to do with "women first" - it's actually shorter people in front so everyone can see the life vest demonstration.I don't think so. If that were true then they would say tall people in back and short people in front, not men in back and women in front. I've been behind tall women and couldn't see the demo. I think think the implication is that the women, in front, would be the first ones to get on the lifeboat.

[sail7seas]

I don't think so. If that were true then they would say tall people in back and short people in front, not men in back and women in front. I've been behind tall women and couldn't see the demo. I think think the implication is that the women, in front, would be the first ones to get on the lifeboat.


That is what they now say.

Our last few drills, I clearly recall it catching my attention the instructions had changed.

They said "Taller people in the back and shorter in the front'. There was no designation as to men/women.

[Typhoon1]

The Concordia Captain was one of the first to leave. I don't know where he thought he was going to go.

[hrhdhd]

I think there should be help for those with mobility needs and children. Then mothers and fathers and then the single folk last regardless of age. I also would be willing to go last as my children are grown and I have no mobility issues. In this day and age it should be children and their moms first, disabled then no preference.

I will note, as someone without children, that I don't care for the suggestion that people without children should step back and let those with children escape first. I am someone's child myself, after all, as well as someone's wife, and I don't think that not having children makes me less valuable.

A lot of the egregious behavior reported had nothing to do with singles shoving children aside, BTW. Many people of all stripes and circumstances behaved badly. That will happen when people panic. But even with this awful behavior, fewer than .6% died (if one assumes all the missing are dead). Sad? Yes. But given the circumstances, it could have been much, much worse.

[Toad]

That is what they now say.

Our last few drills, I clearly recall it catching my attention the instructions had changed.

They said "Taller people in the back and shorter in the front'. There was no designation as to men/women.



I have to agree with Sail. I am a woman who is 5'9" tall and have been asked to stand behind some shorter men.

As an aside, every time there is a life boat drill, I look at the number of people standig in the group and wonder if all those people would truly FIT in a life boat. I cannot remember the number of peoplle that are supposed to go on each boat, but always think it would be a pretty tight squeeze.

[RMLincoln]

I would not want to get on a lifeboat without my husband. I'll wait.

I'll help load those that need help. I'm trained for land-based emergencies and I think would be an asset. I wouldn't want to be on a lifeloat of only women and children. Diversity is better, IMHO. Keep families, couples together. Loved ones together.

Yes, mom should be with her children, and so should dad! Keeping families together reduces panic, reduces need for more help on board the lifeboat and once on land.

Men are generally stonger - it's was the men who were able to push the lifeboats off the side of the listing Concordia to get it down to the water. I'm sure women helped too.

I will wait to go with my husband. There's been at least some time in these recent incidents, speaking about Concordia and Sea Diamond which grounded and sank off of Santorini April 2007.

There's almost no reason to jump (maybe fire...! Especially without a life jacket, that is almost suicide.

Be Calm, and Stay Together is how I was raised. I'm not leaving my husband's side because of some archaic chivarly code; we've been a team this long and we do well together. We firefight together, we provide emergency medical assistance together, we had to change a trailer axle on the road in Louisiana together! And I'm 5'0" and he is 6'0" 12 years older than my 57 so we're not so much alike, but we are a team.

Passports, credit cards, phone numbers... all secondary to being together, IMHO. No offence to Joanie, we each have to make our own decisions! m--

[itzmered]

I am a female and I think this is absolutely ridiculous. So men are not as important to save as women and children? Sorry I dont agree one bit. I think each and every person is equal and no one group besides children should be singled out to go first.

[Math Guy]

Some folks will casually step ahead of you in the buffet line, squeeze in and clutter stairwells at the disembarkation line, race ahead to get to the elevator so they won't have to be delayed somewhat by folks with mobility issues getting onto an elevator....

I'm just wondering how the true prsonalities of people will be revealed in panic mode when they are aboard a sinking and capsizing ship.

[sail7seas]

I am a female and I think this is absolutely ridiculous. So men are not as important to save as women and children? Sorry I dont agree one bit. I think each and every person is equal and no one group besides children should be singled out to go first.


I am a female and getting older by the day.
In the event of an emergency evacuation, I sincerely think I would step aside to give my seat to a young family man to go with his wife and children.

Yes, hypothetical and we think we know what we'd do but that is my instinct as I sit here in a calm, safe environment.

[JR767]

If you're a man, and concerned about your chances of survival aboard a cruise ship in case of an emergency, looks like Costa is the way to go.

No regard for women and children on that line, apparently - just good ole 'survival of the fittest'. Whoever moved the fastest and threw the hardest elbows got aboard the lifeboats first - and that included the crew and captain.

The question is - is this just a European thing, or is it the entire world that is changing?

[Lakookoo]

Some folks will casually step ahead of you in the buffet line, squeeze in and clutter stairwells at the disembarkation line, race ahead to get to the elevator so they won't have to be delayed somewhat by folks with mobility issues getting onto an elevator....

I'm just wondering how the true prsonalities of people will be revealed in panic mode when they are aboard a sinking and capsizing ship.

This is perhaps the most disconcerting part of all this -- that one may be in as much or more danger of being trampled by a panicked herd of passengers, than of being killed by the mere fact of a ship's accident.

Large crowds, tight spaces, and extreme fear do not go well together. I guess I'll be making a real effort to be more aware of my surroundings (where am I in relation to exits? to lifeboat stations? do I have copies of important documents, flashlights, medications?) and relying less on an automatic trust in the ability of the ship and crew to deal with every outcome of every situation.

Karin

[Viesczy]

Having been through more than enough "pandemonium" in my life, the primary concern is my ODA's survival. If/when the $hit hits fan, we're dropping to the edges of the stampede so that we're not stuck in any bottleneck or separated while being able to move freely to ensure our safety.

If it is a choice between their survival or my survival, it is their survival as I will endeavor to give mine for theirs, it always is your crew before you. If it is a choice of their survival or your survival--a dire situation where they are stuck and you are stuck in the same dire situation, you are on your own as my fidelity is to mine. If there is time once mine are safe, I will assist you in that same situatino, but not until after mine are safe.

If mine are inextricably stuck and beyond help, don't attempt to move me or remove me. The fallen are never left behind or left to die alone, we never leave our own behind. I will die with them before outliving them. They are mine and I am theirs.

If it is a case of we're all just waiting to board the life boat and there's one seat left and its me or you for that seat, it is yours as I'm one of the strongest swimmers you're ever going to meet. If I have a vest too... I'm using that as my "anchor" and swimming about in the Blue until rescue.

I bad situations I have always found that crowds are dangerous and it is best to be on their fringe to ensure that you and yours survives.

Derek

[Laurie S.]

I agree with that! I will always have dive gear with me on board and will make every safe effort to get to it and put it on to increase my chances of survival. I would avoid the crowds because I've seen too many incidents of people out of control.

[kazu]

If you're a man, and concerned about your chances of survival aboard a cruise ship in case of an emergency, looks like Costa is the way to go.

No regard for women and children on that line, apparently - just good ole 'survival of the fittest'. Whoever moved the fastest and threw the hardest elbows got aboard the lifeboats first - and that included the crew and captain.

The question is - is this just a European thing, or is it the entire world that is changing?

A report from Canadians who just got home - children were being pushed aside by panicked people. They ended up jumping off the ship and swimming ashore (and they weren't young). They were on CBC this morning. Their description just gave me chills.

[sail7seas]

I agree with that! I will always have dive gear with me on board and will make every safe effort to get to it and put it on to increase my chances of survival. I would avoid the crowds because I've seen too many incidents of people out of control.


Really? :D
I'm not sure if you are serious or not. :)

[kazu]

Well, I guess the question was answered on the Costa cruise - there is a 5 year old missing:eek: Just despicable IMO:eek:

[mmr923]

That is what they now say.

Our last few drills, I clearly recall it catching my attention the instructions had changed.

They said "Taller people in the back and shorter in the front'. There was no designation as to men/women.



On our last HAL cruise, on the Ryndam April 2011, the instructions were CLEARLY for men to line up agains the wall, women next, and children in front of them. I remember it very clearly because there were women next to me who were very short and could not see over taller women and "children" in front of them. One of the "children" was my 17 year old son who, jokingly, turned around at one point and said "ha, I have to stand in front of you even though I'm taller than you are, and I get to go on the lifeboat first!" - he was just joking - in actuality he is an Eagle Scout and a very helpful, kind and considerate young man. But the point is his little joke also helped me remember that we were NOT lined up by height, but by gender/ age. We were also told that the order in which we were standing was the order in which we would board the lifeboats (i.e. children, then women, then men). That's the way it was on the Ryndam, at any rate!

I always thought that women and children went off the ship first because the "able-bodied men" might be able to do something to assist the crew?

[Laurie S.]

Really? :D
I'm not sure if you are serious or not. :)



Absolutely serious.

[TheCalicoCat]

What would happen in this sort of situation? DH is able bodied but is now in his mid seventies. Other passengers are not going to stop and help. Are crew members going to?



Not in an emergency situation (thankfully) but on Carnival, I saw crew mwmbers helping a lady with a walker :)

[THE BUDSYS]

The Concordia Captain was one of the first to leave. I don't know where he thought he was going to go.
By then his brain was in "Oh SH$T" mode. You can bet if he could have made it to the mainland he would be long gone.

[Viesczy]

Absolutely serious.

IMO if there is time to do something to ensure the survival of yours and you, Laurie is right as we should endeavor to do that something.

We are pack animals and emotions are unbelievably contagious; so when pandemonium hits and that icy fear grips the mass, if you don't act you're going to be swept up in the stampede. Move to the fringe to observe the situation, to stay together and to survive. If you don't, you're dramatically lowering your chances of survival.

Now if the ship is taking on water faster than a famous actor who is no longer on 2 and a Half Men was (or is) doing drugs, that is a different story as we might be forced to vest up and go for a swim. In that case, vest up and get away from the ship pronto to avoid being pulled down with her as she goes to the bottom.

The OODA process pioneered by Boyd is BEST. You Observe Orient Decide Act. Far too many folks react; that is a bad thing as your reactions are driven more by the flight/fight reflex than thought. OODA was instilled upon us and follows me to this day. I've used it many times and I'll use it in a dire situation to ensure that mine aren't swept away in a rush and that I put us in the best position to survive.

Derek

[sail7seas]

:o I want to be one of 'yours' in the case of an emergency. ;)
I read and reread your posts as they are so instructional and wise.

Thank you.

OODA...... Something to concentrate on trying to practice in the little episodes in our lives in the hope we can use it if something dire arises.

[fann1sh]

Agreed.

Derek, your advice is gem quality.

I also know OODA, but find it hard to apply in fires. I *think* I would have been able to keep my head in this kind of situation.

But, when I smell smoke.....it's really hard for me to think.

I'm a PITA any time I'm instructed "stay in your cabin". So seldom is that good advice for survival. Have to stay out of the way of crew doing their job, but....you'll find me somewhere on the prom deck within striking range of my lifeboat station.

[Viesczy]

Now I just re-read what I wrote... it was a little drier and more severe than I meant.

I didn't mean that I was going to run anyone over to survive, that I'll be throwing folks other than mine out the way! I will make sure we survive, to the fullest extent of my ability.

The OODA loop, when that process was introduced to me... the scales fell from my eyes! For me it has gotten easier with age, now that I'm 40 (and been using it for 20 years) I'm not as apt to fly off the handle and I'm more worldly, but what a GREAT and SIMPLE thing! Also the self confidence that experience gives helps with OODA loops.

As for being mine, if you're on the Westy in the Fall and something terrible happens, stay close to Karen and myself while we're moving and you're at least a probationary member of crew! Now if that does happen where Karen is immobilized and unable to be saved, use OODA on your own as I don't leave mine behind to die alone. I won't trade their life for my life.

Derek

[Laurie S.]

It's the same process that we use in scuba diving. You never want to panic, if you do, you're not likely to survive a problem.

[Viesczy]

Agreed.

Derek, your advice is gem quality.

I also know OODA, but find it hard to apply in fires. I *think* I would have been able to keep my head in this kind of situation.

But, when I smell smoke.....it's really hard for me to think.

I'm a PITA any time I'm instructed "stay in your cabin". So seldom is that good advice for survival. Have to stay out of the way of crew doing their job, but....you'll find me somewhere on the prom deck within striking range of my lifeboat station.

Fire? On a ship? That'll throw tons of sand into the vaseline of any OODA loop as all life is averse to getting scorched! Two things to fear on board, going to the bottom and fire. I can swim like I have gills, but I don't have asbestos skin! That's when I think many loops would be ODA, orienting, deciding, acting. GET away from the heat to get off.

You know what always freezes my OODA... heights. I completely LOATHE them.

I know I'm no fool, I know I'd not do anything to fall, and I have been hundreds of feet up before, but LORD that always gets me. I completely KNOW that we pick our fears & I chose that one, but you wanna see me squirm and lose confidence? Force me to do the Sky Jump off the Stratosphere in Vegas... piglets don't squeal as much as I'd squeal! :eek:

Now thankfully even the tallest of ships are within my comfort!

Derek

[Seavoyage]

"The OODA process pioneered by Boyd is BEST. You Observe Orient Decide Act. Far too many folks react; that is a bad thing as your reactions are driven more by the flight/fight reflex than thought. OODA was instilled upon us and follows me to this day. I've used it many times and I'll use it in a dire situation to ensure that mine aren't swept away in a rush and that I put us in the best position to survive."

Personally I just do not think it's that complicated as Boyd's decision cycle (OODA Loop) reflects. It really comes down to - there are good humans and there are bad humans. The good humans will help others - the bad humans won't.

[chipmaster]

1) In a drill I don't think they want people to be thinking about the worst case scenarios where everybody ain't going to make it.

2) Costa was lucky in that they were close to shore. But at that moment of listing ship and reality of true disaster things are really different. If instead they were out at sea and say in Alaska and the probability of staying on ship and low probability and in a lifeboat higher, its a harsh fact of life and choice but children/young for sure first and oldest last IMHO. When it comes down to choice mom "or" dad I know it isn't easy but as a generalization given the choice of only one its likekly mom + children versus dad.

We can debate after mom/children who is next...


During lifeboat drills I have never heard mention of gentlemen standing aside for women and children to seat in lifeboats first. It never comes up.

I note that in the Concordia, some of this was going on according to accounts until panicked men reportedly rushed around and over everyone to secure a position.

Perhaps the question is more poignant if there is a list and one bank of lifeboats is inoperable.

Could a man take a seat if other women were left onboard? Could a woman leave without her husband? Of course there is no question about children.

Despite the new improved and very just equality of the sexes, I suspect the old tradition prevails.

Is it still women and children first?

[serendipity1499]

I have been on 3 cruises since I had my mobility problems. In normal circumstances, most people are very helpful and considerate because I cannot use stairs, walk a distance, stand a long time or climb a steep incline.

What would happen in this sort of situation? DH is able bodied but is now in his mid seventies. Other passengers are not going to stop and help. Are crew members going to?

(snip)

I have done many cruises but this incident has made me realise how vulnerable I would be.

Will it stop me cruising? No. But it has given me a lot to think about



I read in this forum that people with mobility issues should let "them" know (it's not always obvious, esp if there's no walker, cane, wheel chair, etc.), but I'm not sure who "they" are - front desk? crew member at the muster station? Anyone know?

Leaving on the Nieuw Amsterdam a week from Sunday..Don't have strict Mobility issues, but after hip replacement I'm still using a cane.. Tryied to get off the can & not limp but it's been slow going..Saw Dr. on Mon & he wants me to use the cane when out & about as the hip/leg is still weak..Believe I'll be able to go up & down stairs slowly.. Hate to hold people behind me up, & this thread got me thinking..

Will have to go up to the Promenade Deck from our cabin on Main Deck & back down again down during the life boat drill, which concerns me..

Several years ago there was a crowd going down with their straps undone which is a dumb thing to do..Just as we reached the landing, a Gentleman behind us fell down the stairs & was injured..I always think of this when I go down the stairs

I'm 5 ft tall & can't see over the jacket when I descend so I always completely remove my life jacket & hold it while going down..Since I'm now slower due to the weakness & don't want people behind me upset, will need to plan this.. Would appreciate thoughts of those who have been in the same situation..

Should I contact Special Services in Seattle now, or go to the front desk when I board the ship & ask to use the elevator?.. Or should I just wait until everyone is up the stairs & then follow them up & then wait until the crowd has left the Promenade deck to return to our cabin.? Don't need special help as DH can help me..

Thanks for your suggestions..

Cheers..:)Betty

[sail7seas]

Glad to hear you are on the mend and your leg is gaining strength.

Were it me, I would go to the office and ask for approval to use the elevator and I would be surprised were they to not consent.

Why take the risk of a fall?
Hope you have a great cruise. :)

[fleckle]

........Will have to go up to the Promenade Deck from our cabin on Main Deck & back down again down during the life boat drill, which concerns me..

Several years ago there was a crowd going down with their straps undone which is a dumb thing to do..Just as we reached the landing, a Gentleman behind us fell down the stairs & was injured..I always think of this when I go down the stairs

I'm 5 ft tall & can't see over the jacket when I descend so I always completely remove my life jacket & hold it while going down..Since I'm now slower due to the weakness & don't want people behind me upset, will need to plan this.. Would appreciate thoughts of those who have been in the same situation..

Should I contact Special Services in Seattle now, or go to the front desk when I board the ship & ask to use the elevator?.. Or should I just wait until everyone is up the stairs & then follow them up & then wait until the crowd has left the Promenade deck to return to our cabin.? Don't need special help as DH can help me..

Thanks for your suggestions.. When we travel with family members who have mobility issues, we go to the deck of our muster station early, ahead of the crowd.

Then after the drill is over, we wait until everyone has cleared out before trying to return to our cabins.

For those who dislike crowds, this works well even for those without mobility restrictions.

On our most recent cruises we were no longer required to bring the life jackets to the muster drill so that was not even an issue.

[Mar56]

Now I just re-read what I wrote... it was a little drier and more severe than I meant.

I didn't mean that I was going to run anyone over to survive, that I'll be throwing folks other than mine out the way! I will make sure we survive, to the fullest extent of my ability.

The OODA loop, when that process was introduced to me... the scales fell from my eyes! For me it has gotten easier with age, now that I'm 40 (and been using it for 20 years) I'm not as apt to fly off the handle and I'm more worldly, but what a GREAT and SIMPLE thing! Also the self confidence that experience gives helps with OODA loops.

As for being mine, if you're on the Westy in the Fall and something terrible happens, stay close to Karen and myself while we're moving and you're at least a probationary member of crew! Now if that does happen where Karen is immobilized and unable to be saved, use OODA on your own as I don't leave mine behind to die alone. I won't trade their life for my life.

Derek

Derek, I didn't find your previous comments severe at all. I was actually quite riveted to what you wrote. When you mentioned, and I'm paraphrasing, that you wouldn't be moved if yours were stuck or beyond help, as no one died alone or was left behind, it made me tear up and I'm NOT that type of easily moved person. That's called devotion, that's called "family" and that's just as it should be.

In addition, your comments are very helpful - I wouldn't have thought to move to the outside, and evaluate etc. I will try to remember that.

Thank you.

Mar56

[RuthC]

Should I contact Special Services in Seattle now, or go to the front desk when I board the ship & ask to use the elevator?..
You don't need to ask permission to use the elevator for muster, you just use it. One elevator in each elevator bank is an "emergency" elevator for just that purpose in an emergency.
The Traffic Director will watch you, but will see right off that you are not fleet of foot and won't say a thing.

When you are returning from the drill there will be many, many others trying to use the elevator, too, so it make take a while before you can get on one. Just be patient.

Now, you may want to let the Front Desk know that in a real emergency you would need help. But don't worry about permission for the drill. It simply isn't necessary.

On the S- & R-ships I usually get a cabin on Lower Promenade, so I won't have to worry about getting to my muster station. On the other ships, I just take the elevator every time.

[zijlweg]

During lifeboat drills I have never heard mention of gentlemen standing aside for women and children to seat in lifeboats first. It never comes up.

I note that in the Concordia, some of this was going on according to accounts until panicked men reportedly rushed around and over everyone to secure a position.

Perhaps the question is more poignant if there is a list and one bank of lifeboats is inoperable.

Could a man take a seat if other women were left onboard? Could a woman leave without her husband? Of course there is no question about children.

Despite the new improved and very just equality of the sexes, I suspect the old tradition prevails.

Is it still women and children first?

It all depends on what nationalities are on board....on a ship with mostly Italians...The ones with the biggest elbows get the best seat.

[esther e]

HAL just emailed me a form to fill out and send that indicating my husband will need a wheelchair for embarkation (he does not use a wheelchair, but that ramp on Noordam and the other Vistas is long and a bit steep for him) and they said they are making a note that he has mobility issues and will require help if necessary. I'm not expecting any problems, but it's reassuring to know someone will be aware.

[serendipity1499]

Glad to hear you are on the mend and your leg is gaining strength.

Were it me, I would go to the office and ask for approval to use the elevator and I would be surprised were they to not consent.

Why take the risk of a fall?
Hope you have a great cruise. :)

Thanks Sail..Wish I was off that cane, but Phys. Therapist & Dr don't want me to push it..

When we travel with family members who have mobility issues, we go to the deck of our muster station early, ahead of the crowd.

Then after the drill is over, we wait until everyone has cleared out before trying to return to our cabins.

For those who dislike crowds, this works well even for those without mobility restrictions.

On our most recent cruises we were no longer required to bring the life jackets to the muster drill so that was not even an issue.

thanks for your suggestion..

You don't need to ask permission to use the elevator for muster, you just use it. One elevator in each elevator bank is an "emergency" elevator for just that purpose in an emergency.
The Traffic Director will watch you, but will see right off that you are not fleet of foot and won't say a thing.

When you are returning from the drill there will be many, many others trying to use the elevator, too, so it make take a while before you can get on one. Just be patient.

Now, you may want to let the Front Desk know that in a real emergency you would need help.

Excellent idea!

But don't worry about permission for the drill. It simply isn't necessary.

On the S- & R-ships I usually get a cabin on Lower Promenade, so I won't have to worry about getting to my muster station. On the other ships, I just take the elevator every time.

Thanks Ruth..Guess when they see me with the cane they won't question it..Appreciate your suggestions..

Cheers...:)Betty

[Viesczy]

Derek, I didn't find your previous comments severe at all. I was actually quite riveted to what you wrote. When you mentioned, and I'm paraphrasing, that you wouldn't be moved if yours were stuck or beyond help, as no one died alone or was left behind, it made me tear up and I'm NOT that type of easily moved person. That's called devotion, that's called "family" and that's just as it should be.

In addition, your comments are very helpful - I wouldn't have thought to move to the outside, and evaluate etc. I will try to remember that.

Thank you.

Mar56

Mar56,
I re-read all and in hindsight if someone didn't know me or understand my POV they'd've thought I was going all bullrush everyone.

Leaving the fallen behind, that just isn't done. I won't trade their life so that I have mine, honor precludes such a thought. How could I live with myself knowing that I didn't give my all, that I left mine die alone? Fealty is just too stong.

Derek

[world~citizen]

You don't need to ask permission to use the elevator for muster, you just use it. One elevator in each elevator bank is an "emergency" elevator for just that purpose in an emergency.
The Traffic Director will watch you, but will see right off that you are not fleet of foot and won't say a thing.

When you are returning from the drill there will be many, many others trying to use the elevator, too, so it make take a while before you can get on one. Just be patient.

Now, you may want to let the Front Desk know that in a real emergency you would need help. But don't worry about permission for the drill. It simply isn't necessary.

On the S- & R-ships I usually get a cabin on Lower Promenade, so I won't have to worry about getting to my muster station. On the other ships, I just take the elevator every time.

Elevators are finicky beasts. On land, if they are installed in a building with soil settlement issues, as the building shifts, the elevators require adjustment. I can't imagine what that means for elevators on a ship in the event of a list. Would they even work?

It is a question worth asking next time we are on board.

Smooth sailing...

[williamsk]

I have to admit, in an emergency it would really depend on a few things what I would personally do. If my children were onboard, I would definitely do whatever I had to do to get them off. If they were not with me, I would probably try to help those that I could within reason. I am a firefighter, so this wouldn't be a huge issue. But I am also a poor swimmer :)

What many people fail to realize is that in a large emergency it is like when an anthill is submerged and you are tryingto save as many ants as possible. You don't go after the one ant down in the hole initially, you scoop up as many as you can at a time, to save the maximum amount. You go after individuals as time and resources permit. So my advice is to act as early as possible if you sense something is wrong, especially if you have special needs or young children with you.

I guess I don't have an extreme amount of faith in my fellow passengers, if people will hog pool chairs when they aren't using them, I can only imagine what they will do if their life was on the line.

Another hint is to always keep in mind two seperate ways out anywhere you are. Most people will fight towards the way they came into any area, even when an exit is closer than that pathway. This is true of night clubs, hotels, just about any place with a large quanitity of people.

[luxurysailer]

When it comes down to choice mom "or" dad I know it isn't easy but as a generalization given the choice of only one its likekly mom + children versus dad.

"Greater love hath no man than he give his life for a friend." A father giving his life for his wife and children would be tragic and heartbreaking, but can you imagine the love his wife and children would always feel in their hearts for him?

The scenario of the Costa Concordia brings to mind how medical professionals are trained to triage victims of a mass disaster. Those who obviously aren't going to make it are to essentially be abandoned so that those who will benefit from treatment can be helped. A difficult concept for those who have been trained to save lives to wrap their minds around emotionally but intellectually it is obviously the right thing to do.

[ksobgynrn]

As a Registered Nurse I have had to evacuate patients during a tornado with no regards to my own safety. Though I am now retired and not in the best of shape, I know I could not leave a disabled or elderly person to fend for themselves. I guess it boils down to whether you want to meet death doing the right thing or live only for yourself.

My son is a Police Officer who cruises as well. I can assure you he would be helping others. Maybe that is why we chose the careers we did.