HAL Life Boat Drills

[LoveHAL]

About two years ago HAL started telling people NOT to bring their life jackets to life boat drills. The explaination was that this was done to prevent accidents caused by people tripping over the strings. (Boy, if you are going to trip over something in a non-emergency situation, what will happen in a true emergency?)

I found that to be a problem because it is such an important part of the drill. Location of, knowledge of and the proper use of the life jacket. In addition, the new jackets do NOT have the long wrap around strings, rather there is a clasp to secure it.

Add to all of this the lack of attention of passengers (social interaction rather than listening to instructions) and there is a disaster waiting to happen.

How will HAL/Carnival handle this in the future? During life board drills, I hope they will require the life boat captains to demand attention and passenger silence. I hope they will require passengers to bring and wear their life jackets to all future drills.

Anyway, it is my intention to bring and wear my life jacket to the life boat drill on all future cruises. Let them send me away if they like, it is my safety.

[Globaliser]

The explaination was that this was done to prevent accidents caused by people tripping over the strings. (Boy, if you are going to trip over something in a non-emergency situation, what will happen in a true emergency?)People tripped over straps of lifejackets that were being carried, not lifejackets that were being worn. Also, in a real emergency people tend to be more focused on the emergency and what they need to do, rather than on their mobile phones, dinner plans and first choice of cocktail.

In any event, in a real emergency the balance of risk and benefit changes.

[mllewis48]

Globaliser,

Could not agree with you more. We have seen the transition from wearing lifejackets to the drill to not wearing, obviously for safety reasons. We listen intently during the drillls even though we have been to many with HAL but that's more than I can say for others. We also make it our practice to know where our jackets are in the stateroom and make sure we know how to put them on. Another good practice is to listen to the safety messages on the stateroom TV. I practice something that I learned while working with my company, S T O P, Safety Takes Observation and Preparation!

Happy sailing

[lorekauf]

Wow, is this a stretch! I think if you were worried about putting a life jacket on you can "practice" in your room. Maybe it me, but I don't think it all that difficult.

[kazu]

The new life jackets are much easier to put on IMO. We always have tried them on in the cabin to make sure we can do it and I think that more than suffices:)

[pms4104]

Yes, the instruction to not bring the life jacket to the drill likely is based on safety issues. A couple of years ago, after the drill and before sailaway, we saw a passenger, along with her traveling companion and all their luggage, offloaded ... seems she broke her leg when she tripped on a life jacket strap while going up or down stairs. Haven't we all seen passengers so ga ga over getting thru the drill and starting their cruise that they're not paying attention to the straps hanging and tripping their fellow passengers?

Well, and I wish HAL would insist on quiet on the deck during the drill ... too much socializing and drivel going on. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open might be an appropriate directive.

[ejd]

Don't agree with the new policy of not wearing your life jacket to the muster drill.
Most passengers are clueless about the proper use of life jackets.
In a emergency when you have to leave the ship quickly or go directly into the water, water that may be cery cold, is not the time to figure out how to properly don a life jacket.

I believe most passengers will not familiarize themselves with their life jackets in the privacy of their state rooms.

May seem like a hassle to do during the muster drill, but could be a real issue when all hell breaks lose in a real at sea ship disaster, rapid sinking, fire, etc.

[crusinbanjo]

Globaliser,

Could not agree with you more. We have seen the transition from wearing lifejackets to the drill to not wearing, obviously for safety reasons. We listen intently during the drillls even though we have been to many with HAL but that's more than I can say for others. We also make it our practice to know where our jackets are in the stateroom and make sure we know how to put them on. Another good practice is to listen to the safety messages on the stateroom TV. I practice something that I learned while working with my company, S T O P, Safety Takes Observation and Preparation!

Happy sailing

Safety does indeed take observation. I am a big believer in taking some time to actually drill for an emergency. During pilot training we drilled and rehearsed for emergencies all the time... came in handy I must say! Airline Staff & ships crew routinely drill and are tested for emergency procedures and preparedness, but that is not enough for me.

Mrs Banjo & I make it a point to pay attention, not only to what the crew says, but to our surroundings and what we need to do and where we need to do it to be safe in an emergency. We make it a point to get the life vests out, be sure we know how to use them and then walk as many routes as possible from our cabin to the muster station, just so we would not be lost in an emergency. Takes a few extra minutes on Day 1, but I always feel better about it.

All to often during the life boat drill I look around and say "what would the situation look like if it were an emergency". People panic and it always make the situation worse! Be prepared, stay calm be ready and be safe.

[bloofer]

The first time I cruised with HAL (Zuiderdam), we were required to bring life-jackets to the muster station. A roll call (by cabin number) was called and they would not begin the drill until all were accounted for. We also practiced putting the jackets on while at the muster stations.

The next time I cruised with HAL (Noordam), we were required to go to the muster stations (outside) but without the life jackets. There was no roll call. We watched a demonstration.

My most recent cruise was with Princess (Royal Princess). We met inside the ship (in one of the lounges) with our life jackets, watched a demo and practiced putting on the jackets. No roll call.

Apparently, there is no standard procedure. Should there be?

[ejd]

Safety does indeed take observation. I am a big believer in taking some time to actually drill for an emergency. During pilot training we drilled and rehearsed for emergencies all the time... came in handy I must say! Airline Staff & ships crew routinely drill and are tested for emergency procedures and preparedness, but that is not enough for me.

Mrs Banjo & I make it a point to pay attention, not only to what the crew says, but to our surroundings and what we need to do and where we need to do it to be safe in an emergency. We make it a point to get the life vests out, be sure we know how to use them and then walk as many routes as possible from our cabin to the muster station, just so we would not be lost in an emergency. Takes a few extra minutes on Day 1, but I always feel better about it.

All to often during the life boat drill I look around and say "what would the situation look like if it were an emergency". People panic and it always make the situation worse! Be prepared, stay calm be ready and be safe.


Well said...the passenger has to take some responsibility. Have been on a Navy ship when fire broke out, Had seconds to react, no time to think, knew all routs to safety from berthing compartment and work station. To this day that training has stayed with me.
I always don and adjust my life jacket and DW's jacket when unpacking. I stand outside my stateroom and make a mental picture of all exists routs, in case I have to do it in the dark and maybe under extreme conditions.

Above all try to remain calm. Yea i know will be hard to do, but if you panic it will just decrease you chances of survival.

[sail7seas]

I don't think our life boat drills are any less informative and instructive without bringing life jackets. We were on too many cruises when we saw some folks literally drop to the ground from being overheated wearing their life jackets in the high heat of some FLL/southern sailaways. Nurse was always standing by waiting to see who required medical care.

The newer jackets are obvious how to put on with the clips vs wrapping the straps all around.

I do not think there is anything to be gained by having people lug the jackets to drill.

[DFD1]

I agree with LOVEHAL. When the cruise lines took away the requirement to wear the life vest to the drill, they took away the one thing that brought real focus to the seriousness of the drill.

The life vest is a symbol and a remider that disasters can happen. It is your primary means of saving your life. To remove it from the drill seems shortsighted to me.

I've heard all kinds of excuses...people trip on the straps, people are afraid of picking up baceria, other people have worn the vest, on and on. None of these is reason enough to ignore the most important piece of personal safety equipment on the ship.

IMO

[DFD1]

Double post. Please excuse

[sail7seas]

I agree with LOVEHAL. When the cruise lines took away the requirement to wear the life vest to the drill, they took away the one thing that brought real focus to the seriousness of the drill.

The life vest is a symbol and a remider that disasters can happen. It is your primary means of saving your life. To remove it from the drill seems shortsighted to me.

I've heard all kinds of excuses...people trip on the straps, people are afraid of picking up baceria, other people have worn the vest, on and on. None of these is reason enough to ignore the most important piece of personal safety equipment on the ship.

IMO


I get your point about the seriousness of wearing a life jacket but surely you remember the people who blew the whistles (despite being told not to and without thinking about who blew it last week and whether they might have had Noro Virus or Colds or flus or whatever.....)....

Then those who played with the lights and they dangled on cords that caught on door jams and could easily have torn off....

Too many people did not take them very seriously IMO

[cruiseapril]

Are roll calls for muster ever done by swiping your card at the muster station?

[tpwolfe]

My concern isn't taking the life jacket to the drill but when we sailed HAL out of Seward, Alaska in 2008 we didn't have the life boat drill till the next day. I asked them about that and they said they had 24 hours to do it. I hope that changes.

[lorekauf]

Are roll calls for muster ever done by swiping your card at the muster station?
I know I've had that happen on Princess.

[Globaliser]

I've heard all kinds of excuses...people trip on the straps, people are afraid of picking up baceria, other people have worn the vest, on and on. None of these is reason enough to ignore the most important piece of personal safety equipment on the ship.Clearly, there are some good arguments in favour of taking lifejackets to the drill. But there are also good arguments against. You have to balance one against the other. There are no black-and-white inevitably-correct answers when you assess the good things in each approach and weigh it against the bad things.

To put it more crudely, what's the good in insisting that lifejackets are taken to muster drills if that practice hurts hundreds of times more people than would ever suffer an injury because they weren't told how to don their lifejacket until the real emergency muster?

If there is one thing that can be taken away from Friday night's "rapid sinking", it's that passengers are perfectly capable of correctly donning their lifejackets in a real emergency, whether or not under immediate instruction by the crew, even when many of those passengers had not yet gone to a muster drill.

[lorekauf]

I get your point about the seriousness of wearing a life jacket but surely you remember the people who blew the whistles (despite being told not to and without thinking about who blew it last week and whether they might have had Noro Virus or Colds or flus or whatever.....)....

Then those who played with the lights and they dangled on cords that caught on door jams and could easily have torn off....

Too many people did not take them very seriously IMO


Exactly, people don't take them seriously with them on. I think the terrible tragedy that happened with the ship has brought out folks that don't agree with HALs current practices on ships and are trying to get them to reverse their policy. The way it works now is fine IMO. I doubt very much if people would be more calm in an emergency because they brought their life jacket to the drills or if they take roll call.

[geocruiser]

I will now look at the life jacket in my cabin to make sure that it is in good shape. I don't know how often they are checked.

[GPoll189]

I agree that wearing live jackets to the muster station is a very good idea, but people weren't following directions and they were carrying their life jackets to and from the muster drills instead of wearing them. This is when the straps are loose and dangle and cause injury.

The most important thing I believe in the muster drill is the directions and information given and not how to wear a life jacket. When we fly airplanes we don't try and put on the lifejackets that they have. We watch the flight attendents put them on. I think the cruising industry followed the airline industry in this part of education. Will it go back to the old way, only time will tell.

[GPoll189]

Just thought of this additional thought. When I sailed on Oasis in December they don't have life jackets in the room. They state that they will give out the jackets at your muster station when the emergency is going on. I still feel that the life jacke should be in your room and I was extremely surprised when I first got to my room and looked for the life jacket and couldn't find one. That is when I went to the door sign and read it and found out they only give them out when you muster for an emergency.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Whether or not we will be required to wear life jackets is not a big concern for me.

I want Roll Call taken!!

I want to see people have their drinks taken away from them -- told to be quiet and quit their partying.

And people MUST report and not be having cocktails in a bar/lounge or be sitting by the pool.

[zookiebird]

We consider part of the muster drill to return to our cabin and refresh ourselves where the life jackets are and how to wear them properly. Only takes a couple of minutes.

[Ocean Travler]

more important to me than bringing a life jacket are the following issues: paying attention to what is said at the drill, watching the demonstation, mandatory attendance and requiring a boat drill before leaving the berth

if a pax joins late, he/she should be required to attend a mandatory drill with a crew member within 2 hours of joining the vessel, barring an emergency

but, let's not lose sight of the deeper problem on Concordia .. the chaos and fear didn't arise because someone didn't bring a life jacket to a boat drill .. IMO what occured was caused by a total breakdown in the chain of command starting with the captain, going through the chief officer and then right down to the stairway guides to the asssitant life boat commander

there was no chain of command in place on the night of this tragedy to direct pax what to do

that's where the focus of the discussion in my opinion belongs.. not on whether you have to bring a life jacket to a drill

there's no doubt that eventually there will be changes made to the system .. but they have start at the top

[djg541]

Given recent events, a good idea might be showing a slide show of the Concordia episode on room TV...BEFORE the muster.
A sobering reminder that the oceans of the world are NOT Disneyland and are to be respected, lest it cost you dearly.

[Rinderoo]

I sail Disney Cruise Line quite a bit and the muster and safety drill is taken very seriously. No partying/drinking, no talking. Roll call is taken and checked off against cabins. People who are not there are called out repeatedly. People lined up by height for muster stations on the decks; for musters in lounges families are kept together.

On Princess I remember the drill in the lounge because that was the muster station. Attendance was taken, no talking.

RCI again was a professional affair: muster for our suite was in the theatre, with attendance taken. No talking.

NCL: Attendance taken, no talking.

Carnival Valor March 2011: attendance taken but that's where similarities end. Guests at muster station were loud and continued their vacation. Couldn't hear a darn thing that was being said on the loudspeakers. Was the absolute worse safety drill I have ever attended. Very disappointed in CCL with them not having guests take it seriously.

[Hawaiidan]

Someone said, in an emergency people get focused .
Well, I have worked itn the emergency field for 30 years, and have observed people in high stress emergencies. not hunderds but thousands of times
Other than people line police, fire, Pilots, Military and those in emergency medical fields, People as a whole panic, the loose it, act like 2 yearolds without focus , direction .
The simple tasks become overwhelming to most. People do irrational things that in a calm state they would never ever consider. Its called fight or flight reaction and it takes over unless you practice, train and prepare constantly for it.
The people who cant manage to not trip over their life jacket in a drill will not become better in the real incident. They may hurt or kill themselves when a real emergency.. I have seen people kill themselves doing the most irrational stupid things when an emergency sets in and they panic.

In the service we used to say" we bleed in training so we will not die in war" While blunt and extreme it is very valid to consider

2 omissions are presently a design for disaster. Not wearing a life jacket to muster and not taking a head and name count for each boat drill
There is no way of accounting for who is or isnt safe or where they are.
Name and cabin number used to be called out and you have to sign in.

Without these controls ( which the Navy, Army, Airforce, Fire, Coast Guard,police all use for their personnel who are experienced) you have no way of managing anything.... the situation is out of control

[dot73]

When I first began cruising 14 years ago, the muster drill on HAL was a serious undertaking. Passengers who were talking or ignoring the instructions were reprimanded, usually by an officer. An officer was at every station to make sure that the crew were conducting the drill in a correct manner. I was totally shocked at the way the muster drill was conducted on my recent Noordam cruise. Attendance was not taken. Some people managed to make the drill only for the latter part of it and some left early. People were talking on cell phone or playing with them, some people had drinks in their hands, while others never shut up. There seemed to be only one officer walking the length of the deck and the crew member at our muster drill was demonstrating the life jacket in a comical fashion. It was like a party atmosphere with no one paying attention. I wish I had made a complaint to the front office about this, but I figured I would just get some excuse of how things are done these days. I, for one, hope that HAL brings back the mandatory attendance at muster drill and assigns officers to ensure that the drill is done correctly and that passengers are paying attention. I totally understand that people, including myself, want to start our cruise fun as soon as possible, but hopefully after this accident, people will take this more seriously.

[IRL_Joanie]

Someone said, in an emergency people get focused .
Well, I have worked itn the emergency field for 30 years, and have observed people in high stress emergencies. not hunderds but thousands of times
Other than people line police, fire, Pilots, Military and those in emergency medical fields, People as a whole panic, the loose it, act like 2 yearolds without focus , direction .
The simple tasks become overwhelming to most. People do irrational things that in a calm state they would never ever consider. Its called fight or flight reaction and it takes over unless you practice, train and prepare constantly for it.
The people who cant manage to not trip over their life jacket in a drill will not become better in the real incident. They may hurt or kill themselves when a real emergency.. I have seen people kill themselves doing the most irrational stupid things when an emergency sets in and they panic.

In the service we used to say" we bleed in training so we will not die in war" While blunt and extreme it is very valid to consider

2 omissions are presently a design for disaster. Not wearing a life jacket to muster and not taking a head and name count for each boat drill
There is no way of accounting for who is or isnt safe or where they are.
Name and cabin number used to be called out and you have to sign in.

Without these controls ( which the Navy, Army, Airforce, Fire, Coast Guard,police all use for their personnel who are experienced) you have no way of managing anything.... the situation is out of control

Agree 100% and pray that HAL will get back to the days of mandatory Life Vests, roll calls and TOTAL silence during the drills!!

Joanie

[buckirj1]

On my last cruise, NCL seemed to have a decent compromise. Shortly after I boarded, a crew drill was called a couple of hours before muster. Muster was held before sailaway in stations all over the ship. My muster station was held in the theatre, where crew members checked off names. I'm pretty sure we weren't required to bring life jackets, but many crew members were up on stage demonstrating how to put them on and use them. However, people being what they are, many saw it as a social occasion. A safety video was shown in almost a continuous loop on one of the ship's tv channels (at least it was playing every time I turned on the television). I seem to remember a second crew drill about midway through the cruise, but didn't pay too much attention because I was nicely into an order of fish-n-chips at the marvelous Blue Lagoon.

The crew of most lines take safety as a serious business. I wish more passengers would do the same.

[DFD1]

"NCL may seem to have a decent compromise."........Hello, there should be NO compromise. The cruise industry is watering down the safety drill. It's just that simple...and the result could be absolutely horrible.

IMO

[Boytjie]

Wow, is this a stretch! I think if you were worried about putting a life jacket on you can "practice" in your room. Maybe it me, but I don't think it all that difficult.

Especially since life jackets itself don't seem to have been an issue on the Concordia emergency; confusion or panic in loading/getting to the lifeboats and having them launched was a bigger issue.

[DFD1]

The discussion about the difficulty of launching the lifeboats prompts me to ask....If there were a major disaster on one of these 100,000 ton, 3500 passenger ships, such as an on board explosion or major fire, I wonder how many would be able to get off?

These ships are 5 or 6 or 7 stories high, just from the water line to the lifeboats. Can we imagine what it would be like for passengers 60, 70, or 80 years old caught in an emergency situation on one of these ships, especially if it were at sea in a storm and not near to a port where help was forthcoming.

Thinking about it makes me want to stick to smaller ships.

[jschm27]

Safety does indeed take observation. I am a big believer in taking some time to actually drill for an emergency. During pilot training we drilled and rehearsed for emergencies all the time... came in handy I must say! Airline Staff & ships crew routinely drill and are tested for emergency procedures and preparedness, but that is not enough for me.

Mrs Banjo & I make it a point to pay attention, not only to what the crew says, but to our surroundings and what we need to do and where we need to do it to be safe in an emergency. We make it a point to get the life vests out, be sure we know how to use them and then walk as many routes as possible from our cabin to the muster station, just so we would not be lost in an emergency. Takes a few extra minutes on Day 1, but I always feel better about it.

All to often during the life boat drill I look around and say "what would the situation look like if it were an emergency". People panic and it always make the situation worse! Be prepared, stay calm be ready and be safe.

HooRaw for you! More people should follow your example! I too try to watch my surroundings and make a mental plan what to do should an emergency occur. It only takes a few seconds, but it may save your life. I not only do this on cruises, but on airplanes, in buildings, hotels, restaurants, etc. A lot of people suscribe to the "it won't happen to me" theory. Trust me, it can.

I am also a firm beliver in "muscle memory", in other words, the more you do an action, the more it will become instinctive in an emergency. In the case of life jackets, should the time come, you are going to have a LOT of stuff to be worring about. Why add to it the stress of putting on an unfamiliar life jacket.

John

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

I like the way Princess does their drills, you take your life jacket to a muster station, a lounge, not on the life boat deck. The safety information is give,then the crew demonstrates how to put on the jacket, then everyone puts their jacket on. I am not so sure one needs to go to the lifeboat area. Most folks pay no attention at the lideboat station and many are drinking alcohol. Another Cruiseline we have sailed, has the muster in a lounge and then crew take you to your lifeboat station. It is either Carnival or NCL, I can't remember. This may be more effective. In any case, I am not sure most cruisers, especially new ones, pay attention as to where they are supposed to go and what they are supposed to do. That is very unfortunate. Barbara

[Laurie S.]

I know I'm in the minority, but I see little purpose in the muster drills because as soon as emergency hits, panic will set in and people will not go to their stations, they will go to the closest lifeboat. It's very simplistic to put on a life jacket, and you should check that you can do it in your cabin. I actually find the instructional video much better on the tv than standing in a crowd where you can't see well. You should know where your lifeboat station is, but I'm sure not going to go from the far end of a ship in trouble to get to my own. My friends and I discussed this quite a bit on Legend over New Year's, and we all agreed that passengers, for the most part, will not go to their designated muster station.

My first couple cruises in the 1980s, a roll call was taken. I think they should go back to that to check attendance and deal with those who didn't attend. Over the last three years, the best drills I have seen were on Carnival and not HAL. Princess was the worst of all.

[jtl513]

Are roll calls for muster ever done by swiping your card at the muster station?Not on HAL. Back when roll was taken the lifeboat captain often would note your cabin number as you arrived (at least for the early arrivals) and check it off, then only call out the cabin numbers that had not been noted.


The life vest is a symbol and a remider that disasters can happen. It is your primary means of saving your life. I think the lifeboats are the primary means of saving your life, and the vests are a secondary back-up. Many if not most people who end up in the water will drown or die of hypothermia, with or without a life vest on.

[boards]

I was disappointed that on our Oosterdam cruise in Nov. the roll call was not taken. I will say the weather was not good that day, cool and had rained. We stood there and listened to the instruction given in that weatner, so a few more minutes to take the roll would have been a good idea.

[lorekauf]

I was disappointed that on our Oosterdam cruise in Nov. the roll call was not taken. I will say the weather was not good that day, cool and had rained. We stood there and listened to the instruction given in that weatner, so a few more minutes to take the roll would have been a good idea.
I've never had the roll call take only a few minutes:confused:.

[boards]

I meant in relation to how long we had already stood there. The point is no roll call was taken.

[sail7seas]

Roll Call/ No Roll Call........ I don't see it will make a difference.

JMO.....

[sail7seas]

I've never had the roll call take only a few minutes:confused:.


I agree. How many times we stood there while the screamed out names and people busy chatting didn't even hear their own name. We spent more time listening to the boat commander scream names than getting life saving instruction.

[RMLincoln]

I prefer Muster Drill the way Princess did it on our last cruise with them, 2010, Ruby TransAtlantic out of Venice.

Our muster station was in the show lounge; we had our room cards swiped as we entered so they had accountability at the drill. People with mobility issues had less trouble attending. Everybody paid attention. In an emergency, the crew would have better control inside, better communication, safer inside than outside. Naive? I don't think so, it's the basics of emergency response training. Situation Awareness, Command and Control, Communication. m--

[LoveHAL]

I agree. How many times we stood there while the screamed out names and people busy chatting didn't even hear their own name. We spent more time listening to the boat commander scream names than getting life saving instruction.
This would not happen if HAL had a policy that required the crew to enforced a serious attitude during the drill and the ship's officer at each life boat approached people and told they to "shut up" and pay attention. After the drill is over.... let the party begin!

[boards]

good for you. JMO

[IRL_Joanie]

I like the way Princess does their drills, you take your life jacket to a muster station, a lounge, not on the life boat deck. The safety information is give,then the crew demonstrates how to put on the jacket, then everyone puts their jacket on. I am not so sure one needs to go to the lifeboat area. Most folks pay no attention at the lideboat station and many are drinking alcohol. Another Cruiseline we have sailed, has the muster in a lounge and then crew take you to your lifeboat station. It is either Carnival or NCL, I can't remember. This may be more effective. In any case, I am not sure most cruisers, especially new ones, pay attention as to where they are supposed to go and what they are supposed to do. That is very unfortunate. Barbara


I have highlighted only part of your comment because I discovered an important safety and accessibility issue Barbara when we were on the Nieuw Amsterdam together a year ago, for not only myself but others assigned to my Lifeboat and others near mine:eek:

The only way for me to get to my Life boat was through part of the Galley. When I got to the exit from the galley to the Promenade deck, there was a 3 inch high lip that I could not get over:eek: And the ramps from inside the ship to the Promenade deck are all to high for a scooter to get over. I literally high bottomed (I think that's what it is called) the scooter and people trying to get to the Life Boat drill had to physically pick my scooter up and lift it over the lip:(

My Life Boat Captain told me to go to my stateroom and watch the drill o the TV and that in the case of an actual emergency a member of the crew would come and assist me....

My point being this, in case of an actual emergency, I'd have been blocking all others behind me in trying to figure out what to do. Would have caused panic, I am sure of that.

Now I know that in case of actual emergency on any ship I cruise upon, I MUST take my cane with me so that IF I have to maneuver an obstacle, I will not be as big an obstacle as an immovable/stuck scooter:(

Joanie

[Globaliser]

People as a whole panic, the loose it, act like 2 yearolds without focus , direction .
The simple tasks become overwhelming to most. People do irrational things that in a calm state they would never ever consider. Its called fight or flight reaction and it takes over unless you practice, train and prepare constantly for it.
The people who cant manage to not trip over their life jacket in a drill will not become better in the real incident. They may hurt or kill themselves when a real emergency.. I have seen people kill themselves doing the most irrational stupid things when an emergency sets in and they panic.Except that (at least) Star Princess and Costa Concordia demonstrate that in a real cruise ship emergency, this does not happen.

The other thing you overlook is that the muster drill accidents do not necessarily happen because people trip over their own lifejacket's straps. The inattentive and inconsiderate also trail their straps in a way that makes other people trip over them.

And in the final analysis, if the panickers do no better in a real emergency, let them panic then. They will panic anyway, whether or not they've taken their lifejacket to the muster drill. But as that's the case, isn't it arguably better that nobody else gets hurt during the muster drill, rather than have people regularly hurt during muster drills as well?

However, I entirely agree that muster drills ought to be taken more seriously by crew and passengers than they have been of late. I hope that will change across all cruise lines.

[Hawaiidan]

roll call or no roll call whats the difference?

Well from my experience roll cal= we know who is here, who is not, and where they are likely to be to be rescued or be searched for. The army, Navy Fire depts do this for their trained and experience members.

Firemen dont go into a fire without loggin in with a control officer and logging out when the come back out. They carry personal locators as well But logging in and out has saved countless lives of these professionals. What, do you think they know that you dont?

Pilots have check lists they do never trusting memory air crew keep detaled recorde of who is on and off. Confined space worker, tag in and tag out?

Without rollcall, you have a good much better chance of getting killed and or " missing in action"
I remember in the Navy we had weekly drills for everything from fire to abandon ship.

On a cruise liner, you can go on mental vacation and ignore the potential.
"Oh, it wont happen to me" . However, that ignores the reality that you are in the game, to play for keeps if something happens..

You live if you win, but die if you are wrong. There is seldom a second place or chance. It's that simple. Dont fool yourself.. and pack twice the humility that your likely to think you need.

As I said before, when people are in emergency situations you need to have officers or trained crew on the ratio of 1:5 in order to control the situation ( see: span of control) To me there is no way on the mega liners 2500+ passengers than the crew can effectively deal wiith the human problem

This is why I stick to ships under1400 max and prefer 600-700.

[RuthC]

Anyway, it is my intention to bring and wear my life jacket to the life boat drill on all future cruises. Let them send me away if they like, it is my safety.
Take & wear your lifejacket to muster? Even though you have been expressly told not to?

That makes you sound like someone who can't be trusted to follow instructions from an officer or crew member in time of emergency. Totally not what would be needed at such a time.

[mtnmommy]

Have they stopped allowing ship's photographers to take pictures during the drill? I haven't seen it for a while, but I remember them doing it in the past and thinking that it was distracting and inappropriate.

[KirkNC]

I have consistently expressed concern over the direction of muster drills on all ships. They need to include donning life jackets and going to your actual life boat station. Anything short just adds to the chaos in an actual emergency.

[RMLincoln]

Read today on CNN that foreighn flagged ships sailing in US waters are inspected twice a year by the Coast Guard so they can observe the crew's competency in carrying out abandon ship drills.

Maybe nobody does this for Mediterranean based cruises? m--

[Himself]

About two years ago HAL started telling people NOT to bring their life jackets to life boat drills. The explaination was that this was done to prevent accidents caused by people tripping over the strings. (Boy, if you are going to trip over something in a non-emergency situation, what will happen in a true emergency?)

I found that to be a problem because it is such an important part of the drill. Location of, knowledge of and the proper use of the life jacket. In addition, the new jackets do NOT have the long wrap around strings, rather there is a clasp to secure it.

Add to all of this the lack of attention of passengers (social interaction rather than listening to instructions) and there is a disaster waiting to happen.

How will HAL/Carnival handle this in the future? During life board drills, I hope they will require the life boat captains to demand attention and passenger silence. I hope they will require passengers to bring and wear their life jackets to all future drills.



Anyway, it is my intention to bring and wear my life jacket to the life boat drill on all future cruises. Let them send me away if they like, it is my safety.




Most improtantly is that people attend the drill, which HAL always schedules before the ship leaves the dock, keep quiet and listen to the directives.

[sail7seas]

This would not happen if HAL had a policy that required the crew to enforced a serious attitude during the drill and the ship's officer at each life boat approached people and told they to "shut up" and pay attention. After the drill is over.... let the party begin!


There is a line between providing the casual, cruise vacationer with necessary safety and rescue information they would need in the event of an emergency and conducting it like they have enlisted and are at Book Camp.

It does no good to try and make cruisers into professional rescue/emergency responders. Just tell them where to go and how to put their life jacket on. Tell us the basics of what we need to do for ourselves and 'ours'. Put on warm clothes, your life jacket, follow lighted strips in the hallway to life boat station, obey commands given by stairwell monitors, follow instructions of life boat commanders..... What more can the average little old lady do if there is an emergency? You great big strong, strapping guys can help your fellow guests if you have the ability and inclination.

You can cross the line to frightening people silly and overwhelming them with having them think you expect more from them than they can do.
To cite what professionals are trained to do is fine..... it's their job. These are cruisers depending upon professionals to 'save' them in an emergency.

JMO.......

[sail7seas]

This would not happen if HAL had a policy that required the crew to enforced a serious attitude during the drill and the ship's officer at each life boat approached people and told they to "shut up" and pay attention. After the drill is over.... let the party begin!

roll call or no roll call whats the difference?

Well from my experience roll cal= we know who is here, who is not, and where they are likely to be to be rescued or be searched for. The army, Navy Fire depts do this for their trained and experience members.

Firemen dont go into a fire without loggin in with a control officer and logging out when the come back out. They carry personal locators as well But logging in and out has saved countless lives of these professionals. What, do you think they know that you dont?

Pilots have check lists they do never trusting memory air crew keep detaled recorde of who is on and off. Confined space worker, tag in and tag out?

Without rollcall, you have a good much better chance of getting killed and or " missing in action"
I remember in the Navy we had weekly drills for everything from fire to abandon ship.

On a cruise liner, you can go on mental vacation and ignore the potential.
"Oh, it wont happen to me" . However, that ignores the reality that you are in the game, to play for keeps if something happens..

You live if you win, but die if you are wrong. There is seldom a second place or chance. It's that simple. Dont fool yourself.. and pack twice the humility that your likely to think you need.

As I said before, when people are in emergency situations you need to have officers or trained crew on the ratio of 1:5 in order to control the situation ( see: span of control) To me there is no way on the mega liners 2500+ passengers than the crew can effectively deal wiith the human problem

This is why I stick to ships under1400 max and prefer 600-700.

We're talking about vacationing cruisers.... not Firefighters, Police or the Marines (Bless them all).

You can't expect from 75 year old little old ladies to be compared with training of professionals.

You'll scare away all your customers!!...... including me.

[sail7seas]

I have consistently expressed concern over the direction of muster drills on all ships. They need to include donning life jackets and going to your actual life boat station. Anything short just adds to the chaos in an actual emergency.

IMO, there is going to be chaos in an emergency. No matter if everyone has put on their life jackets or not.......
We hear those 7 short toots followed by a long and there is chaos.
The best all of us can hope for is the constant drilling and training of the crew like we know occurs on all HAL ships, all the time will 'kick in for them'. That they can get us and themselves safely off the ship. (We know they drill constantly because we see it. I have never been on a HAL cruise we did not hear the announcement there is a crew drill in progress and no action is required of guests.)

[Typhoon1]

Anyway, it is my intention to bring and wear my life jacket to the life boat drill on all future cruises. Let them send me away if they like, it is my safety.

Some people just can't follow instructions. You would be the one unable to follow instructions in real emergency.

[sail7seas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveHAL
Anyway, it is my intention to bring and wear my life jacket to the life boat drill on all future cruises. Let them send me away if they like, it is my safety.




Why? What does that prove?
If we are given explicit directions to not bring life jackets, why would you blatantly disregard the instruction? :confused:

I'm not being snarky, I am curious the answer.

[wwaggone]

About two years ago HAL started telling people NOT to bring their life jackets to life boat drills. The explaination was that this was done to prevent accidents caused by people tripping over the strings. (Boy, if you are going to trip over something in a non-emergency situation, what will happen in a true emergency?)

I found that to be a problem because it is such an important part of the drill. Location of, knowledge of and the proper use of the life jacket. In addition, the new jackets do NOT have the long wrap around strings, rather there is a clasp to secure it.

Add to all of this the lack of attention of passengers (social interaction rather than listening to instructions) and there is a disaster waiting to happen.

How will HAL/Carnival handle this in the future? During life board drills, I hope they will require the life boat captains to demand attention and passenger silence. I hope they will require passengers to bring and wear their life jackets to all future drills.

Anyway, it is my intention to bring and wear my life jacket to the life boat drill on all future cruises. Let them send me away if they like, it is my safety.

You think after 19 cruises, you would know how!

[brfan]

I guess I don't see the issue about not wearing the life jacket as I think the old way of wearing it caused more problems (tripping on the straps when inconsiderate people let them drag behind after being asked not to, is one). However, what's the difference between the lifeboat drill and the safety instructions provided on a plane? On a plane you aren't asked to practice putting on the oxygen mask or the life vest. At least on the ship you can practice putting on the jacket in your room, and if you have questions your room steward or any other crew member can assist. Plus there is always the video being played on the tv explaining the emergency procedures.

[IRL_Joanie]

Read today on CNN that foreighn flagged ships sailing in US waters are inspected twice a year by the Coast Guard so they can observe the crew's competency in carrying out abandon ship drills.

Maybe nobody does this for Mediterranean based cruises? m--

Maureen did you see KOB news tonight at 5 pm??....They interviewed a couple from here in Albuquerque that are amongst the survivors. They made it home safely either yesterday or today. They have video of the interview on KOB. I am guessing they will have it again at 6 and 6:30 pm.

Joanie

[luxurysailer]

There is a line between providing the casual, cruise vacationer with necessary safety and rescue information they would need in the event of an emergency and conducting it like they have enlisted and are at Book Camp.

It does no good to try and make cruisers into professional rescue/emergency responders. Just tell them where to go and how to put their life jacket on. Tell us the basics of what we need to do for ourselves and 'ours'. Put on warm clothes, your life jacket, follow lighted strips in the hallway to life boat station, obey commands given by stairwell monitors, follow instructions of life boat commanders..... What more can the average little old lady do if there is an emergency? You great big strong, strapping guys can help your fellow guests if you have the ability and inclination.

You can cross the line to frightening people silly and overwhelming them with having them think you expect more from them than they can do.
To cite what professionals are trained to do is fine..... it's their job. These are cruisers depending upon professionals to 'save' them in an emergency.

JMO.......



The two most recent cruise ship sinkings of which I am aware (the MTS Oceanos off the South Africa coast about twenty years ago and now the Costa Concordia) do not exactly inspire confidence in the competence/dedication of the ship's officers and crew, at least in those two incidents. It is incumbent upon each of us to know how to put on our life vests and be familiar with the routes to our lifeboat stations. When we get there we need to be properly equipped, and we just hope the crew is functioning as they're supposed to.

[djhsolara]

We are relatively new cruisers compared to the vast realm of experience of the many people on this board. I remember our first cruise on Westerdam and we wore our life vests and roll was taken. Someone had mentioned photographers...and it was the videographers. We have the cruise video and the muster drill is part of the video.

Honestly, I do not see the point in wearing the left vests to the muster drill. Like many have said, there are many instructions provided that show how to wear them and you can practice this all you want in your stateroom. I'm not one that can stand comfortably for a long period of time and it is all I can do to stand there surrounded by all of those people in the Ft Lauderdale heat (I know there are many more ports, but we always seem to be sailing out of FLL), let alone in a life vest.

I will say, though, that I do like the way that HAL's muster stations are on the deck. I do not like muster stations that are indoor...at least on HAL you are out where there you would be catching the lifeboats. Our muster station on our Celebrity sailing was in the casino and no one could see or hear anything that was going on.

:) :)

[DBowman]

Having never been on a cruise before and reading through this thread a have a couple of questions and thoughts about this.

Why would the cruise lines have the life jackets in the staterooms? If there was a major problem on the ship going to retrieve the life jacket from your stateroom could be a problem. Depending on the problem and where you are at the time of the problem could cause injury or worse. I would think that having the life jackets at the life boats would be far more safer IMO.

Do they have extra life jackets on the life boats? I know that a life jacket could save ones life but if there is a fire between me and my stateroom I guess I would be out of luck.

In light on what happened last week I'm sure Carnival Corp will be making a big jump in the way they handle the onboard pre-cruise Muster (I hope). I for one will not standby and have to listen to chatty passengers during the Muster. I would not hesitate to have to wait for an Officer to tell them to be quiet. I would tell them myself and not hold back and report them to the cruise personal. Lives have been lost and hopefully the disruptful cruiser will smarten up and pay attention.

[sail7seas]

The two most recent cruise ship sinkings of which I am aware (the MTS Oceanos off the South Africa coast about twenty years ago and now the Costa Concordia) do not exactly inspire confidence in the competence/dedication of the ship's officers and crew, at least in those two incidents. It is incumbent upon each of us to know how to put on our life vests and be familiar with the routes to our lifeboat stations. When we get there we need to be properly equipped, and we just hope the crew is functioning as they're supposed to.


If my memory serves well, there were no deaths when Prinsendam went down. Achille Lauro and Meridian.... I think the same.

[kazu]

Having never been on a cruise before and reading through this thread a have a couple of questions and thoughts about this.

Why would the cruise lines have the life jackets in the staterooms? If there was a major problem on the ship going to retrieve the life jacket from your stateroom could be a problem. Depending on the problem and where you are at the time of the problem could cause injury or worse. I would think that having the life jackets at the life boats would be far more safer IMO.

Do they have extra life jackets on the life boats? I know that a life jacket could save ones life but if there is a fire between me and my stateroom I guess I would be out of luck.

In light on what happened last week I'm sure Carnival Corp will be making a big jump in the way they handle the onboard pre-cruise Muster (I hope). I for one will not standby and have to listen to chatty passengers during the Muster. I would not hesitate to have to wait for an Officer to tell them to be quiet. I would tell them myself and not hold back and report them to the cruise personal. Lives have been lost and hopefully the disruptful cruiser will smarten up and pay attention.


There are lots of life jackets on the deck - ready! and the crew has them out to put them on you if necessary. If i remember correctly from the muster drills, there are also some in the life boats - but I don't want to swear to that :D

[RMLincoln]

Maureen did you see KOB news tonight at 5 pm??....They interviewed a couple from here in Albuquerque that are amongst the survivors. They made it home safely either yesterday or today. They have video of the interview on KOB. I am guessing they will have it again at 6 and 6:30 pm.

Joanie

But our DSL line went out with the high winds I guess... life in the mountains! So I couldn't get on the web for a while. Otherwise been glued to it all.

That Albuqueruque couple had a verandah cabin on the now-submerged side and said that they were on the right deck at the right time but I'm not quite sure how they got off, I'm guessing in a lifeboat.

I'm curious as to how many got off in life boats, how many jumped, climbed down rope ladders, and swam, how many by helicopter.... It's amazing so many made it with all the chaos. Still hoping for good news about the missing, maybe many are ashore and unaccounted for.. hoping! m--

[Amuse Bouche]

I think we are looking at the wrong direction here.

No matter how much you try to enforce something such as a drill, people will still maintain their own level of concern. YOU CANT SAVE PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES! Even with mandatory this or that. People who don't show up are taking their own lives in their own hands. One can only hope that they aren't in the same area as these people when they don't know what to do. And sorry to say, if a person gets on a ship on the ocean and doesn't even look at their life jacket...well, there's Darwinism for you.

What I am concerned about is the level of preparedness of the crew. Not necessarily because I will be depending on them, but maintaining order makes it necessary to depend on them, God bless their souls. That's worded badly, and it's escaping me right now. Basically, if I have to listen to a crew member before I leave a deck, I want that person to be as prepared as humanly possible. And people have to remember these ARE humans, and will be in just as much turmoil as you.

I think in the case of the Concordia, the crew was not realistically prepared, because they have probably never felt the threat. Can't blame them there.

The news presents the crew as if they were solely responsible, and the passengers are due full service in case of emergency. Nope. If I'm ever in an emergency, I will KNOW how to use my life vest, and I will help those in need of help. I won't be helping the selfish person who in a panic is trampling over the person in a wheel chair.

I think part of the safety drill should be a reality check. I think they should tell people "We will do the best we can to help you, but you need to help yourself and others." I don't think a crew who is in the same panic as the passengers should beheld solely responsible or sued. I think the moron who doesn't know the safety proceedures and impedes the rescue of others should be responsible for their actions.

Learn the safety procedures. Your life and others depends on it.

[jayteeaitch]

Just my 2 c worth of what I spotted on my Zaandam trip 9 dec - and I was in Safety and Protection most of my working life.;)

We were tied up in CircularQuay opposite the Opera House and our life boat station was N0 8. --- and the ship was full.

It took 20 mins to get All (?) assembled at the station and there was barely enough room on the deckspace for every one to stand comfortably.

People wanting to get to their stations either side - had to barge their way through. DW and I were one of the first there and we travelled down from 7 deck only at the signal. She is only 5'2" tall and the whole thing was a waste of time since she couldnt see or hear - the 4'11" Phillipino lady demonstrating the drill etc. -she had a clip board - but I saw no use of it - nor was there a check on who was there - or a head count
I would suggest less than 1/3 actually saw or heard anything - thanks to the social chit chat and comments on the Opera House.

Thank goodnes we had viewed the TV demo at least twice whilst unpacking our suitcases and tried on our jackets - and I could only forseee huge problems if it was night time and a real emergency.

As far as the Concordia is concerned - thank God that it was near the shore and the ship did not go all the way over.

If it had happened in the Ocean (Remember the Titanic did hit somethingout there) - I dread to think what the loss of life would have been since the ship commenced to turtle almost immediately:eek:

[Live4cruises]

I am 100% in favor of roll being taken at muster drill and some official presence to "encourage" attention being paid. How about a requirement that wireless devices be turned off and out of sight? Hard to enforce, undoubtedly, other than perhaps by peer pressure.

This incident has fueled much conversation at our house. DH and I have talked about what we would do in case of an emergency aboard a ship. We are rarely apart while on a cruise, but we have agreed that if we are in an emergency we will NOT look for one another; our best chance of a good outcome is to do what we need and have time to do from where we are. If we are able to go to the cabin and prepare, we will have something waterproof we can wear around our necks for passports and credit cards. Since these reside in the safe anyhow, they won't have to be located.

I'm also interested in what others think of the "women and children first" practice. I don't like it, but I do understand that this is one way of allocating what may be a scarce resource - life boat space. In my personal situation, if there had to be a choice of who was saved, my strong vote (at least while sitting here having my coffee) is that my husband should be first off. He has children and grandchildren, and is an important part of their lives. I have family, certainly, but no children. DH is first on the boat in my opinion, but it seems that it would not be our decision to make.

[Globaliser]

Some people just can't follow instructions. You would be the one unable to follow instructions in real emergency.Why? What does that prove?
If we are given explicit directions to not bring life jackets, why would you blatantly disregard the instruction? :confused:What the comment does show is that there will always be some people who believe that they know better.

[KirkNC]

IMO, there is going to be chaos in an emergency. No matter if everyone has put on their life jackets or not.......
We hear those 7 short toots followed by a long and there is chaos.
The best all of us can hope for is the constant drilling and training of the crew like we know occurs on all HAL ships, all the time will 'kick in for them'. That they can get us and themselves safely off the ship. (We know they drill constantly because we see it. I have never been on a HAL cruise we did not hear the announcement there is a crew drill in progress and no action is required of guests.)



I agree there will be chaos but at least knowing how to properly put on your life jacket and where to go will help. Anything you can do to minimize confusion is a good thing.

[LoveHAL]

Why? What does that prove?
If we are given explicit directions to not bring life jackets, why would you blatantly disregard the instruction? :confused:

I'm not being snarky, I am curious the answer.
Yes, the poster that noticed that I have a few cruises under my belt is correct. And, although I Lifetime Million Mile Flier), I am also the one that listens to airline safety announcements on every flight (and asks the person next to me trying to carry on a conversation to hold off).

Generally speaking I try to follow instructions to the letter. During muster drills on past cruises (when life vests were required) , how many of you have seen passengers wearing their life jackets incorrectly? HAL crew members at the muster stations took the time to show people individually the correct way to do wear the jacket. Learning by doing is a good thing.

What I do know is that in almost all situations there is a time to be serious and a time to not pay attention. A life boat muster drill is an important safety situation and one that should be taken quite seriously. This is true for the passengers and the Cruise Corporation (HAL/Carnival).

I know that HAL employees do review these boards and the reason I started this thread is send them a message that we are concerned about our safety. Cruise Critic comments have led to changes in HAL policies in the past so lets hope that HAL takes a look at our thoughts and reevaluates their current procedures. I suspect that will happen.

[bishop84]

Read today on CNN that foreighn flagged ships sailing in US waters are inspected twice a year by the Coast Guard so they can observe the crew's competency in carrying out abandon ship drills.

Maybe nobody does this for Mediterranean based cruises? m--

The inspections what the USCG do in American ports are called Port State Inspections and are conducted worldwide by various local maritime authorities. So a ship that rarely or never calls at a US port will have had an inspection elsewhere, hopefully to the same standards as the USCG. IIRC the Coast Guard conduct an annual verification inspection on all cruise ships calling at American ports and can also conduct a second inspection if the ship has not had a Port State Inspection in the last 6 months.

Also cruise ships are subject to annual Flag State Inspections which are conducted by the maritime authorities from the country where they are registered, in the case of HAL this is the Netherlands, or by the the classification society used by the shipping company such as Lloyds Register or American Bureau of Shipping etc.

[topcop]

Very interesting posts. I am not sure it makes a difference whether a life jacket is worn to the muster, but I do believe that attendance be taken and that there be order (no talking and pay attention) even if it just to allow the rest of us to hear the instructions.

When this event is analyzed, and that will be months from now, you will see changes. In fact I am sure all cruise lines are now studying their P&Ps to decide what might need tweaking.

But, you can have a muster drill every day and it will make no difference when something like this incident happens. Just look at what happens in tendering? Sure, those booked for tours are often let off first and there is order in that, but I am talking about general tendering. People often DO NOT stand in line, there is often cutting and pushing, especially where people converge from different locations (stairs & passageways). God forbid if an entire family is somehow separated for a few moments going through the checkpoint. There is often pushing and maneuvering to get back together like they will never be together again.

So you can only imagine what happens when life or death is involved.

The problem in such instances is in the command (pretty obvious in this case). The people on that ship needed people in charge who could make swift, firm decisions and stick to it. The people needed information from one source and that info needed to be relayed calmly and frequently. They needed direction, i.e. return to your cabin and await further instruction. Or, "we have a problem and are working on it...We ask you to to go directly to your cabin, retrieve your life vests, medication and warm clothing and proceed to your lifeboat muster stations."

And, of course all those people who direct you to your muster stations, including the ones at every stair level, need to be in place to offer guidance and assurance.

Without any of the above, it becomes ever person for him/her self and that my friends is the start of panic. It is pretty obvious, from all reports, that no one was in charge.

[1 HappyCruiser]

I sail Disney Cruise Line quite a bit and the muster and safety drill is taken very seriously. No partying/drinking, no talking. Roll call is taken and checked off against cabins. People who are not there are called out repeatedly. People lined up by height for muster stations on the decks; for musters in lounges families are kept together.

On Princess I remember the drill in the lounge because that was the muster station. Attendance was taken, no talking.

RCI again was a professional affair: muster for our suite was in the theatre, with attendance taken. No talking.

NCL: Attendance taken, no talking.

Carnival Valor March 2011: attendance taken but that's where similarities end. Guests at muster station were loud and continued their vacation. Couldn't hear a darn thing that was being said on the loudspeakers. Was the absolute worse safety drill I have ever attended. Very disappointed in CCL with them not having guests take it seriously.

We've skipped many muster drills on Princess in recent years since we know the drill by heart & although they do scan some of the cards of people entering it's only to insure that their equipment is in working order & not for a roll call.

[IRL_Joanie]

CNN reported this morning, mind you it is not me saying it is true, BUT, CNN reported this morning that the last 5 bodies found today in the ship were all wearing their life vests and were all discovered together in a Muster Station in the ship....

Makes me wonder if they were HC in some way and that was where they were supposed to go and someone forgot to check on all the Muster Stations....

Another good reason, if this report is true, to NOT have Muster Stations any where else but at the lifeboats themselves.

Joanie

[DFD1]

Joanie: You are so right. The only muster station that matters is the lifeboat.

For passengers to gather someplace else on the ship and wait for some crew member to calmly come and march them to the lifeboat is unacceptable to me.

I want to know exactly where my life boat is located, how easiest to get there and where the extra life preservers are located nearest that lifeboat.

I don't want some guy or gal who may not even speak my language to be completely in charge of my evacuation.

IMO

[bcd2010]

... the social chit chat (during muster) ...

The muster drill is pretty much the only time you are asked to be quiet and pay attention and yet there are those who don't. Perhaps instead of instructing the men to line up behind the women and children, they should put those who don't/won't pay attention at the back so those of us who will, can.

[Boytjie]

Joanie: You are so right. The only muster station that matters is the lifeboat.

For passengers to gather someplace else on the ship and wait for some crew member to calmly come and march them to the lifeboat is unacceptable to me.

I want to know exactly where my life boat is located, how easiest to get there and where the extra life preservers are located nearest that lifeboat.

I don't want some guy or gal who may not even speak my language to be completely in charge of my evacuation.

IMO

And what will you do if your lifeboat station is under water, on fire or damaged and inaccessibly ?

[1 HappyCruiser]

Another good reason, if this report is true, to NOT have Muster Stations any where else but at the lifeboats themselves.

Joanie

Joanie: You are so right. The only muster station that matters is the lifeboat.



And what if their assigned muster station was on the starboard side of the Costa Concordia? :rolleyes:

[IRL_Joanie]

And what if their assigned muster station was on the starboard side of the Costa Concordia? :rolleyes:

I'd try and be realistic after the Life Boat Drill and make sure I know where ALL of the Life Boats are, where the Inflatable Life Boats (Zodiacs?) and Life Vests are all around the Promenade deck. Heck I'll even ttry and find out if their is a Captain's boat aboard and how to get to it if needed:)

I am not leaving my life solely to dependance upon someone else.

This horrific tragedy has proven that we, and I stress WE have to take responsibility for ourselves in times of emergencies. We cannot depend upon someone coming to assist us. What if there is someone else on my deck, close by who is a fully Handicapped person and the crew has to make a decision, save me or save that other person... I'd rather they save the person who is totally unable to help themselves than I, who does have some mobility.

I do not know how many have ever heard the Boy Scout Motto of BE PREPARED!!! I plan on being prepared:)

Joanie

[DFD1]

I'm not suggesting that knowing the location of your lifeboat is absolute assurance that you will survive, but I am suggesting that knowing it's location gives you a much better chance of survival.

Put another way, I'd rather know where it is than NOT know where it is.

Obviously, if it's not there or you can't get to it, you do the best you can....and pray.

[RMLincoln]

The inspections what the USCG do in American ports are called Port State Inspections and are conducted worldwide by various local maritime authorities. So a ship that rarely or never calls at a US port will have had an inspection elsewhere, hopefully to the same standards as the USCG. IIRC the Coast Guard conduct an annual verification inspection on all cruise ships calling at American ports and can also conduct a second inspection if the ship has not had a Port State Inspection in the last 6 months.

Also cruise ships are subject to annual Flag State Inspections which are conducted by the maritime authorities from the country where they are registered, in the case of HAL this is the Netherlands, or by the the classification society used by the shipping company such as Lloyds Register or American Bureau of Shipping etc.


Thank you this clarification Bishop. I'm wondering if we'll find out when the Concordia was last inspected and by whom. I also wonder what flag they sailed under, where she was registered. I'll try to look closely at some of the pictures if I can see it. m--

[RMLincoln]

I've read a lot of post here that say we should have muster drill at the muster stations. BUt I still think there are big advantages to muster inside in an emergency for crowd control, weather sheltering, communication control and being able to direct evacuation operations to those life boast that are useable. I think it reduces panic and bullying and injuries.

I'd like to learn if there has been an evacation on a line that does it this way. Maybe Princess or NCL?

I'll add that on Princess we had to scan our ship cards as we arrived at the muster drill for accountibility. I think that makes a lot of sense. m--

[crusinbanjo]

HooRaw for you! More people should follow your example! I too try to watch my surroundings and make a mental plan what to do should an emergency occur. It only takes a few seconds, but it may save your life. I not only do this on cruises, but on airplanes, in buildings, hotels, restaurants, etc. A lot of people suscribe to the "it won't happen to me" theory. Trust me, it can.

I am also a firm beliver in "muscle memory", in other words, the more you do an action, the more it will become instinctive in an emergency. In the case of life jackets, should the time come, you are going to have a LOT of stuff to be worring about. Why add to it the stress of putting on an unfamiliar life jacket.

John

I agree completely. When I fly, I try to sit in either an emergency exit row, or in the case of southwest airlines, I sit in the last row, isle seat. I don't mind waiting to get off after landing, but I want to be first off in an emergency, so I sit as close to that exit door as possible to avoid the panic should an emergency occur.

[DBowman]

Well another idea for ensuring that everyone on board knows how to put on a life jacket is to have it shown to them when first boarding the ship at the security check point.

If you don't know how then they show you right then and there and if you refuse to learn it then you don't board the ship. Yes this might slow boarding down but not that much and it would ensure that everyone is paying attention.

Then when it comes to the Muster drill I have seen people want to have indoors. Why not have it IN the lifeboats themselves? Drill starts, you proceed to your Muster station and board the lifeboat. Then with everyone onboard it they can go through the important information. By doing this then you can ensure people are more comfortable with how it works and what to do. Also if done on the lifeboats it tests the lowering system of the lifeboat to ensure it is in working condition. Last thing any cruise line would want is to have a lowering system fail due to lack of testing it IMO.

Hope this makes sense.

[RuthC]

I've read a lot of post here that say we should have muster drill at the muster stations. BUt I still think there are big advantages to muster inside in an emergency for crowd control, weather sheltering, communication control and being able to direct evacuation operations to those life boast that are useable. I think it reduces panic and bullying and injuries.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that on the first 8 ships of HAL's current fleet, at least three decks of passengers would have to go past the leftboat deck to a higher deck to get from their cabins to a public muster area.
Then, if there were a need to go to the lifeboats, they would have to go back down a deck or two.

In an emergency, you don't want people backtracking that way.

[sail7seas]

Let's not forget the fine balance they must achieve to not frighten their guests witless. How much 'drilling' is enough? How much is too much?

It isn't boot camp.

[RMLincoln]

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that on the first 8 ships of HAL's current fleet, at least three decks of passengers would have to go past the leftboat deck to a higher deck to get from their cabins to a public muster area.
Then, if there were a need to go to the lifeboats, they would have to go back down a deck or two.

In an emergency, you don't want people backtracking that way.

Ruth, you are quite right in your analysis and I hadn't thought that through. This would make it much more difficult for anyone with mobility issues too and wouldn't make sense for many ships. Too bad, as I always felt more safe and better managed at the inside Muster Drills, but as usual you see through many issues very clearly:) Thanks, m--

[Boytjie]

Thank you this clarification Bishop. I'm wondering if we'll find out when the Concordia was last inspected and by whom. I also wonder what flag they sailed under, where she was registered. I'll try to look closely at some of the pictures if I can see it. m--

Name: Costa Concordia
Owner: Carnival Corporation & plc
Operator: Costa Cruises
Port of registry: Genoa, Italy

[RMLincoln]

Name: Costa Concordia
Owner: Carnival Corporation & plc
Operator: Costa Cruises
Port of registry: Genoa, Italy

So it would be the Italian Cost Guard who would be inspecting, hmmm. Well they certainly seemed to take it seriously that the captain of a sinking ship was no longer on the ship with his passengers. I guess we'll find out if they got inspected.

I've read that a crew member was quoted that they only had muster drill every 15 days becasue pax got on and off at all the ports. Somebody must have approved that, and probably regrets it now. m--

[Globaliser]

I'd like to learn if there has been an evacation on a line that does it this way. Maybe Princess or NCL?Princess didn't have to evacuate, but it did have a major emergency requiring a general muster: Star Princess. On that occasion, muster stations on an open deck at the boarding points for the lifeboats would have been a very bad idea, at least on one side of the ship, as there was a huge external fire raging above.

Further, the passengers were kept at the muster stations for several hours (as is common when there is a major emergency). Imagine the risk to their well-being if they had been on open decks for that length of time in inclement weather.

[Globaliser]

I've read that a crew member was quoted that they only had muster drill every 15 days becasue pax got on and off at all the ports.Is that true? Can that be true? Does it sound odd, given the clear legal requirement for a passenger to attend a muster drill within 24 hours after sailing?

AIUI, a muster drill was held four times a week.

[Stewart94]

In to-days Telegraph it is reported that after the sinking of the SS Lakonia in 1963 many of the passengers rescued from the sea were wearing lifejackets but had suffered from broken necks.
We were on a cruise ship in 2011 and the crew showed us how to wear the jacket. I pointed out to the officer that with the neck support untied as they instructed my neck would break if I had to jump from the ship into the sea. I was told you will never need to jump nevertheless my wife and I both tied the back collar of the jacked firmly down our backs with the strap attached; this would stop the collar jumping up and hitting the back of my neck - like whiplash in a car accident.
I think that many of the ships crews are not aware of this risk.

[1 HappyCruiser]

In to-days Telegraph it is reported that after the sinking of the SS Lakonia in 1963 many of the passengers rescued from the sea were wearing lifejackets but had suffered from broken necks.
We were on a cruise ship in 2011 and the crew showed us how to wear the jacket. I pointed out to the officer that with the neck support untied as they instructed my neck would break if I had to jump from the ship into the sea. I was told you will never need to jump nevertheless my wife and I both tied the back collar of the jacked firmly down our backs with the strap attached; this would stop the collar jumping up and hitting the back of my neck - like whiplash in a car accident.
I think that many of the ships crews are not aware of this risk.

I may be mistaken but on all the jackets I've seen the new design doesn't have the same problems with the neck having to be supported.

[sail7seas]

Years ago when we sailed Monarch of the Seas as a brand new ship, I clearly recall the instructions we were given at life boat drill. We were told if we had to jump from the ship in an emergency, we were to cross our arms across our chest and place our hands at the top edge of the life jacket. We were told if we did not do this, we could break our neck. :eek: HOPEULLY they have changed style of life jackets they use. Here it is many years later and I remember the shock of hearing that instruction.

[crusinbanjo]

Ruth, you are quite right in your analysis and I hadn't thought that through. This would make it much more difficult for anyone with mobility issues too and wouldn't make sense for many ships. Too bad, as I always felt more safe and better managed at the inside Muster Drills, but as usual you see through many issues very clearly:) Thanks, m--

Ruth that is an excellent point, and I hope that HAL is reading this board and takes that into consideration as they review their safety and evacuation procedures. Moving 4,000+ people in an calm & orderly fashion during an emergency is, at best, VERY difficult. Moving them twice and in different directions makes for confusion and additional problems at a time when clarity is required!

I am hopeful that ALL the cruise lines are reviewing Safety procedures and training, along with captains' discretion to deviate from assigned routes, right now.

I can only hope that they have learned a serious lesson from this needless accident and loss of life.... Never mind the loss of a new ship!

[rosmol]

The first time I cruised with HAL (Zuiderdam), we were required to bring life-jackets to the muster station. A roll call (by cabin number) was called and they would not begin the drill until all were accounted for. We also practiced putting the jackets on while at the muster stations.

The next time I cruised with HAL (Noordam), we were required to go to the muster stations (outside) but without the life jackets. There was no roll call. We watched a demonstration.

My most recent cruise was with Princess (Royal Princess). We met inside the ship (in one of the lounges) with our life jackets, watched a demo and practiced putting on the jackets. No roll call.

Apparently, there is no standard procedure. Should there be?
:)
we were just on the Diamond Princess, life boat drill was as normal we were required to go to our designated meeting room WITH our life jackets, our passenger passes were scanned at this point so staff knew who was there or not. we are going on the Crown Princess in June.

[RMLincoln]

Is that true? Can that be true? Does it sound odd, given the clear legal requirement for a passenger to attend a muster drill within 24 hours after sailing?

AIUI, a muster drill was held four times a week.

It's true that I read it, I believe on CNN internet news, but I Can't confirm if that is what actually happened. Maybe somebody who has sailed that itinerary could confirm. m--

[RMLincoln]

Princess didn't have to evacuate, but it did have a major emergency requiring a general muster: Star Princess. On that occasion, muster stations on an open deck at the boarding points for the lifeboats would have been a very bad idea, at least on one side of the ship, as there was a huge external fire raging above.

Further, the passengers were kept at the muster stations for several hours (as is common when there is a major emergency). Imagine the risk to their well-being if they had been on open decks for that length of time in inclement weather.

Thank you for that information as I was not aware of this incident. Sounds like in this case the indoors muster station worked well. But as Ruth has pointed out, it can have it's difficulties too. I wouldn't like standing on deck for hours (not too sure I could do it) but fire can be terrifying and I"m not sure I like the thought of getting trapped inside either:eek:. I'm learning that there is no easy answer. m--

[Globaliser]

Years ago when we sailed Monarch of the Seas as a brand new ship, I clearly recall the instructions we were given at life boat drill. We were told if we had to jump from the ship in an emergency, we were to cross our arms across our chest and place our hands at the top edge of the life jacket. We were told if we did not do this, we could break our neck.I'm not an expert, but I'd always taken this to be an inevitable risk of jumping into water from a height while wearing a lifejacket. After all, every lifejacket will float, every lifejacket will have a top edge on the front of your body (the lifejacket is more buoyant on your front than on your back by design, to keep your face out of the water if you are unconscious), and every lifejacket will inevitably ride up your body as you enter the water.

All I've noticed recently is that most ships no longer give any instructions about how to take to the water. I'm not sure whether the requirement to do this is country-dependent.

One other important part of the instruction is to make sure you have one hand covering your mouth and nose. Otherwise the speed with which you hit the water could drive a lot of water into your lungs through your nose and drown you even though you are otherwise uninjured and kept afloat by the lifejacket.

The most important part of the instruction, though, as I recall it: only take to the water as a last resort.

[Globaliser]

Sounds like in this case the indoors muster station worked well. But as Ruth has pointed out, it can have it's difficulties too.Indeed, there is no perfect answer; and every plan must be capable of being varied on the day, according to the circumstances of the actual emergency. There are pros and cons to both approaches, so I disagree with those who say "It's crazy for a muster station to be anywhere but by my lifeboat".

[snaebyllej]

All I've noticed recently is that most ships no longer give any instructions about how to take to the water.

I'm quite sure we were given intructions last year on Princess.

[Globaliser]

I'm quite sure we were given intructions last year on Princess.That's good to hear.

I have sometimes wondered whether this is a country-specific requirement. My impression is that I've heard the instructions more on British ships (which would include Princess), but I've never made any effort to note down exactly what is and isn't said on which ships.