Reason for staffing "reductions": delays in Visa application approvals?

[rkacruiser]

There have been some reports on this Message Board about what seem to be fewer and more over-worked Stewards, particularly in the Dining Rooms of some HAL ships. A Business News report today is saying that businesses are losing billions due to severe delays in granting U.S. visas to business people from China, Russia, India, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Since most of the Dining Room Stewards come from Indonesia, I am wondering if this is the reason for the understaffing rather than the assumed purposeful cutbacks ordered by the executives of Holland America in Seattle.

Does anyone have any knowledge about the difficulty HAL employees are having in obtaining visas needed to enter the United States?

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[elmorejj]

The Indonesians are definitely having a hard time being approved for their visas. I have been told by HAL Hotel managers and other high up officers that this is the reason for shortages in staff for the DRs and cabin stewards. One Maitre D` told me in Dec. that they had only rec`d 6 visas that month for the fleet. He also told me they are training Filipinos for the DR as they don`t have a problem getting visas. I have already met 2 Filipinos who have been trained for the DR.....jean

[gizmo]

It takes much longer to get a visa since 911. I think someone told me about 3 months but this was some time ago. I could be completely wrong on the time frame.

I don't believe this has anything to do with the service issues. Most of the service issues have cropped up recently. Hal has had plenty of time to handle the delays in getting visas.

[RevNeal]

HAL has just added another big ship to the fleet -- the Westerdam -- and they had to take crew from other ships to staff her because the ss Jakarta simply hasn't been able to keep up with the significant increase in new staff positions which need to be filled.

Think about it ... a company doesn't DOUBLE its work-force needs in about 6 years without at least few problems in meeting the increased staffing needs.

Greg+
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[gizmo]

Rev,

I agree with you but they just didn't acquire a ship suddenly and have to start looking for staff.

[darnapar]

No, but you cannot apply for a visa to early or they become void. There are ballet and opera stars who are having trouble getting a visa done in time for performances how much harder for someone who wants a cabin stewards job, from a "non friendly" country.

[Spender Nui]

I agree with all that you've said but also consider that many of the eligible Indonesians are not renewing contracts. They're leaving when their time is up. Also we were told some left on the spot when the new system was dictated to them.

[gizmo]

If Hal can't get the help they need why don't they do something about it? I can understand waiting 6 months after 911 to see if things improved but unfortunately they have not.

[Randyk47]

We talked for quite awhile with our room steward on the Oosterdam the last morning of the cruise. We were waiting in our room for our number to be called and he asked if he could get started on getting the room ready for the next occupant. We stayed out of his way and chatted for quite a few minutes. He didn't launch into some hard luck story about his family back home or sick mother or anything like that. We'd already tipped him so I felt he was being very honest. He said he was sorry he didn't get to see us as much as he wanted. His room assignments had gone from 12 SS cabins to 15 cabins and the extra rooms really kept him busy. So busy he didn't feel he could do as much for his passengers as he once had been able to do. Might add here that he kept our room very well but it was a little slower than our previous cruises. He clearly stated that HAL had cut the ratio and not one word about visas or any other problems getting staff. He'd been with HAL 12 years so he wasn't exactly a beginner.

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[peaches from georgia]

I don't think anyone can deny that HAL definetely has cut back on staff, both dining room and housekeeping. It may have begun in 2001 for govt. security/visa reasons and adding several ships has certainly added to the need for labor, but with all the other changes that are now obvious, I don't think it's possible that HAL is also not involved in some major payroll cuts strictly for profitability reasons that are now beginning to take their toll on the level of service to the passengers.

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but they just didn't acquire a ship suddenly and have to start looking for staff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're quite correct, it's not as if HAL didn't know that the expansion was going to happen. HALHQ knew the expansion was coming and they should have found a way to train more new staff members more quickly. However, growing pains were going to be unavoidable no matter what happened. I think we should realize that fact, and give it a little consideration during this period of expansion.

Think about it. Over just the last 18 months (since December 2002) HAL has added THREE of their largest-ever ships. This expansion has been larger and quicker than any other expansion in the line's history, and it happened almost without a pause after the acquisition of the Prinsendam in 2002, the Amsterdam and the Zaandam in 2000, and the Volendam in November of 1999. And, during this time, only one ship -- the old Westerdam -- left the fleet.

Count the ship expansion and the time period in which it happened: over the past 4 years HAL has experienced a net gain of 6 new ships, 3 of them significantly larger than any other ship in the line's history. In effect, HAL has DOUBLED its fleet and its staffing needs in just 54 months.

Let's put some crew-numbers onto these facts. Over the last 18 months HAL has expanded their staffing need by about 2400 crew members JUST for the three Vista ships. A little more than 2000 of these new staff members will be from Indonesia and the Philippines. How many people can the ss Jakarta train for HAL service in 18 months?

I'm convinced that a portion of the problem is that HAL wanted to reduce the number of staff members and, thus, save a little money. That's the bean-counters at work. HOWEVER, even if that had not been the case it does seem rather unlikely to me that HAL could have met their full staffing needs given the huge expansion of the fleet over the last 18 months. And, indeed, an argument can be made that many of the service-quality issues we've been hearing about over the last year or so MAY reflect the fact that the Jakarta isn't doing as good a job as they once were ... PERHAPS due to the fact that they're trying to push through too many people too quickly.

HAL should have been better prepared for the fleet-expansion.

Greg+
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[gizmo]

Rev,

Well said !

[mariner]

When Alaska wants to raise a passenger ship tax, the cruise lines pump dollars to their lobbyists in Washington to block it.

I'm sure HAL could pump more to DC and get the State Dept to expedite their crew needs.

[rkacruiser]

Mariner makes an interesting point. I have wondered much the same thing. But, the Immigration and Naturalization Service is just a Bureau within the State Department. Being a bureaucracy, "lobbying", as one thinks of the practice, might not have any effect.

I wonder if those of us who are supporters of Holland America Line could do anything to help the Company if delays in visa approvals are in fact a problem.

Any ideas?

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

WOULD YOU CLEAN UP 15 CABINS FOR $50.00 PER MONTH PLUS TIPS? I doubt it.

[elmorejj]

re the above post, don`t forget the $200 a month the company sends home to the crews family.jean

[localady]

Jean-
I've never heard that HAL did that, but I am sure glad they do! Their staff works so hard and endures being away from their families for so long.... They deserve that and more IMHO!

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
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RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[elmorejj]

localady, I have been told this by many, many crew members. One deck steward on our recent cruise said his wife gets really mad if her check from HAL is a day or two late! he said she turns into a tiger!!.jean

[localady]

Jean-
I sure hope HAL continues this for families of the crew! But this may be part of the new system that the crew is concerned about.

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[gizmo]

I will probably get crucified for this but I will say it anyway. If Hal is having trouble getting staff why not get staff from somewhere else? Other cruise lines do and I do not read about all these visa problems on other boards.
What is important is service.

[Randyk47]

You'll get no grief from me Gizmo. I was thinking exactly the same thing.

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[Jacqueline]

Its true, although it will give hal loyalists one more thing to complain about.
For jobs such as room stewards I cant see why they couldnt hire central europeans. I havent had any language problems with them on other lines.

Jacqueline
Constellation 3/20/04
HAL Westerdam 7/30/04
Tahitian Princess August 2003
Grand Princess Western Caribbean 2003
Brilliance of the Seas Baltic 2002
Ocean Princess- Alaska 2001
Celebrity Zenith- Bermuda 2001
Grand Princess Med 2000

[peaches from georgia]

What we really don't know is whether the decline in number of dining room and room stewards is because of visa problems, a purposeful cutback by HAL to cut costs, or a combo of both. If obtaining visas for Indonesians really isn't the problem then HAL obviously is not going to do anything about the decline in service. If visas are the problem then I think HAL has to immediately institute a Plan B, probably adding stewards of other nationalities, to get their service back up to expected standards.

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peaches from georgia:
What we really don't know is whether the decline in number of dining room and room stewards is because of visa problems, a purposeful cutback by HAL to cut costs, or a combo of both. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree. One thing that bothers me is the removal of serving stations in the dining room. This leads me to believe it is more of a cutback than a visa problem.

[elmorejj]

I was told by a Maitre D` recently, that will probably be the next step, bringing in stewards from other countries. As long as I get top notch service, friendliness etc I have no problem with it. My favorites are the Filipinos anyway, and they don`t seem to have any problems with visas.jean

[rkacruiser]

When I first made this posting, my hope was to get a definitive answer as to what was causing the perceived staffing problems: visa approval delays, purposeful staff cutbacks, or what. As peaches of georgia points out, we still do not know, but gizmo believes that there has been a reduction in the number of service stations.

Could it be that the staff reductions vary by cruise itinerary(and the cost of such)? A good friend who recently returned from the Prinsendam's World Cruise described the service received as "excellent, as usual". The bargain cruise rates of the last two years may have led us to the staffing problem some HAL veterans have seen on their particular cruise itinerary.

I agree with elmorejj that good service is what I expect, no matter what the nationality of the crew. But, it is the Indonesian and Filipino crew that helped to make Holland America stand out from the rest of the cruise lines.

Having recently returned from a long cruise on Royal Princess where the cabin stewards and many of the lounge stewards were Filipinos, their service was just as warm and personable as on any HAL vessel. Service differences, however, were noted by some--not all--but some of those from other nationalities. When they got to "know you", they warmed up and provided the expected personable service. Until then, service was perfunctory.

I recall a Hotel Manager on a HAL ship telling a group of us passengers that managing a crew where there were few differences in nationalities was easier and made for a more smooth operation than when the crew came from many different nations. I am not sure that the management on board the ships would favor adding crew from a variety of different countries.

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[ocngypz]

Crew members rotate on.. and off......they come and they go.

The following crew numbers are courtesy of the CDC. I've just picked one ship because of it's latest inspection date.. the Zaandam 5/24/2004.
You can check the staffing levels yourself on the CDC Green Sheets

Normal staffing complement on the Zaandam as built: 561

5/23/04 593
10/15/03 587
5/27/03 586
1/8/03 589
12/17/01 566

The lucky pax on the Maasdam 5/1/04.. had 550 crew.. for only 586 pax!!!

Volendam 4/00 593, 4/02 604, 5/03 590, 10/18/03 593

Regarding the Vista class ships... as built.. they are meant to carry 842 crew members. Zuiderdam on 5/1/04 carried 775 or 92% of complement. So far she's the only Vista class ship which has shown up in the CDC's Green Sheet report.

[elmorejj]

Very interesting. I think I`ll bookmark that site and check back frequently..jean

[rkacruiser]

Many thanks, ocngypz! I do check the CDC's Green Sheets once in awhile and never thought about the fact they do list crew as well as passenger numbers for that voyage when the ship is inspected. I appreciate your suggestion!

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Could it be that the staff reductions vary by cruise itinerary(and the cost of such)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A good friend who recently returned from the Prinsendam's World Cruise described the service received as "excellent, as usual".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think we are talking apples and oranges when you get into a World Cruise. From what I have been told, things are different on these cruises.

[ocngypz]

Pdam is a little harder.. because of her international itineraries.. but here are the #'s.

Normal complement 460

1/20/04 Los Angeles 437 Crew
9/12/03 San Diego 431
5/17/03 San Francisco 394

Someone who has old brochures can tell us where she was going... or had been.

[sail7seas]

Ocngypz....thanks for facts. We could talk this subject round in circles for days on end but you gave us facts. I find the numbers very interesting.

I, also, read the CDC Green Sheets on a regular basis and also did not think to cull out the crew numbers.

Seems if one pays attention to the facts (pesky as that may be http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), the crew numbers are NOT way down as some have said they are.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[localady]

Very interesting information! Thank you for showing us. The numbers don't appear to match the perception. And one has to believe the "green sheets" are factual and reasonably accurate, there is no reason for there not to be.

Thanks again!

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[Anorak33]

Although I have always had a look at these reports and scores before booking a particular ship I also had never considered the crew numbers.

With the increased security requirements of the last couple of years however I would find it credible that although total numbers are not down it may be that security related crew are up and dining room stewards are down for example.

I should think even a change of say 10 waiters would make a noticeable difference to the speed of service. There must be 10 security crew doing all that searching, X-raying, bodychecking , booze confiscation etc.And when in port there were at least another dozen crew stationed on ship along the side nearest the pier at all possible "unofficial" access points to onboard.

I have only had 14 days on HAL (and that very recently) and found it generally excellent but can understand old-timers see a reduction in service.

Certainly from my experience the cabin and dining room crew on HAL seem to have to work longer and harder than on Cunard.

Note to LOCALADY - please do not continue posting something nasty directed at me after each of my posts .

Statendam
QE2 (x2)
Regal Princess
Golden Princess
Royal Princess
Big Red Boat

[elmorejj]

I also have been thinking that maybe there is a shift in the crew. Adding more to security, engineers dept.etc, and taking from service areas is a possibility..jean

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sail7seas:
Seems if one pays attention to the facts (pesky as that may be http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), the crew numbers are NOT way down as some have said they are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe anyone said the crew numbers were WAY down, if someone did I missed it. Cabin stewards have more cabins to handle, dining room staff have more tables so this appears to be cut backs in the staff. The serving stations that have been removed on the Rott indicate staff was cut. The serving stations on both sides of the removed one did not have additional stewards sharing them.

[sail7seas]

It is my opinion that has that has been posted on this Board any number of times by a number of different posters.

While that PRECISE language may not be exactly written in that EXACT way in this thread, I think many will agree we have all read that some folks have stated crew numbers are way down.



(the grass is green; the sky is blue)

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[ekerr19]

My boss is Canadian, working the States on a Visa. He just got a renewal, it took 6 months from the time of application. He was also told that the application for renewal could not be submitted prior to 30 days of the expiration of his current Visa. It is a very expensive, labor intensive project too. The questionaire was huge and very detailed. The company was required to provide all sorts of corporate information, financials, 10-K's & Q's, proof of insurance, explanation of business dealings, etc. This was just for a renewal.

Also, I noticed a post above about HAL sending $200 a month to the families of the employee... we've had numerous conversations with staff about this - (basically, they are discouraged to dicuss compensation with pax), but what we were told is that the employee (depending on their job description/classification) is only allowed to keep about $50 US per month. The remaining funds MUST be sent home to a spouse or parent. I am not certain, but I believe it may have something to do with taxation. I know for sure it is not HAL choosing to be generous to the employee's family. Most wait-staff we have talked to only make about $150 US per month...

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[peaches from georgia]

I don' think anyone knew, cared, or commented on whether overall total crew numbers are down. Pax are only concerned about the crew that directly affects them and the personal service they receive on the ship. No denying, from tha amount of complaints and comments from a variety of ships, that the number of cabin and dining stewards directly serving the pax is down.

We saw a big difference ourselves in the 8 months between our cruises in the # of cabins and # of tables that the stewards were assigned and it showed, especially in the dining room. There may be a shift in where crew is serving and overall numbers are about the same, but those directly serving the pax apparently have been decreased. Whether 'way down' or simply 'down' is immaterial- as long as pax are complaining it is hurting HAL.

[sail7seas]

Facts and figures are so useful in these sorts of conversations.


I found the figures posted by Ocngypz to be very helpful facts.



(The grass is green; the sky is blue.)



<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[localady]

It seems to me that the pot is calling the kettle black Anorak. We are all allowed our opinions, and most posters don't seem to need to attack people in doing so.

As most here will tell you, I am generally a pleasant poster, but I will not stand still and watch nice people insulted because some one is having a bad day, or bad life.

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[peaches from georgia]

But the numbers shown here give you no facts as to where this crew is serving on the ships- operations, maintanence, food and beverage, security, housekeeping or so forth. The fact/figures that show on average the overall crew assigned to each ship mean nothing re pax service complaints without knowing whether crew directly serving the pax has decreased.

[sail7seas]

No, these figures, as presented do not.

Do you have other figures you can share with us that would be helpful in determining how many dining stewards are on each ship? How many there used to be? Used to be when? Will be next week or next month or whenever the "interested person's" cruise is scheduled?


I do not mean to be a "wise guy". I would genuinely like to see such figures. I have a hard time stating something to be a fact or asserting it in such a way that folks would take it that way.....when I do not have credible facts to back it up.

Just my preference to have the facts in hand.



(The grass is green; the sky is blue.)

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[sail7seas]

ekerr..... That puts a perspective on the difficulty foreigners are encountering these days renewing/getting Visas. Most of us have little contact with these situations and it is interesting to learn what real people are experiencing.

I'm sure there are very valid security reasons for the long time it takes and the thoroughness of the questionnaires. I wouldn't begin to challenge the necessity of that. I would have no way of knowing what is or is not appropriate or how long it should take.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[Orcrone]

I would be more interested in determining the staffing levels in various areas (specifically dining stewards and room stewards).

s7s - what does "the grass is green; the sky is blue" refer to. Today the sky is gray, but my weeds are green (and healthy).

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[Esme]

I'm not getting into this argument but all I know is that there was a shortage of staff in the dining room on the Rotterdam last month and Willy, the Bar Manager, said his staff was down and he had 3 new bartenders. I didn't ask him the reason why.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> s7s - what does "the grass is green; the sky is blue" refer to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to know also. Someone else asked S7S's this question and she has yet to answer. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The grass is green here but the sky is covered in smog all over Southern Ontario. We are in the 90's with high humidity. Yuck!

[rkacruiser]

Thanks to several very helpful people, our discussion has progressed to the point, I think, of can we ascertain definite staffing level numbers currently for dining room staff, cabin stewards, lounge stewards, etc. as compared with historical numbers for those job classifications. Does anyone have access to that kind of information and is willing to share it?

As to the issue of the hiring of current employees whose sole job is security, may I offer the following observations. On my Zuiderdam cruise in September, I recall seeing one uniformed security guard roaming the ship in the evening and at the gangway when we were in ports The officer in charge of the ship's security was also visible. I do not recall who was operating the x-ray machine. On Royal Princess, the security guards patrolling the outer decks when we were in port were sailors under the direct control of the Staff Captain(I know this because I asked one of the men who he was and what his responsibilities were). Lounge stewards and staff from the Purser's Office were operating the x-ray machine at the gangway entrance. I did not get any sense that Princess had hired anyone "special" for that particular job. My guess is that if Princess Cruises is doing this, then, in the name of following "Best Practices" within the Carnival family of cruise lines, the other Lines, including HAL, are doing this also.

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[ekerr19]

rkacruiser-

I think the security staff are very much present on the ship - we may just not always notice them... I say this from our experience on the Zuiderdam, DH & I were requested to the security office to file a report and I must tell you what we saw in the office was state of the art monitoring. Many staff appeared to be in civilian clothes, maybe undercover, not sure. With so many people on board, you figure they must have a pretty extensive behind the scenes operation.

Sail-

I thought the Visa information was interesting as well. The first Visa was obtained before 9/11 and took about 30 days... I agree with you on the new security procedures - they are in place for a valid reason.

I am going to take a guess at "the sky is blue and the grass is green"... perhaps a reminder that focusing on the small pleasures in life is more important than getting caught up in trivial aspects...

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[ocngypz]

Why would any cruiseline cut low paying positions to hire expensive officers if they were trying to save money??

Yes, the Staff Captain on all lines is the top man ... responsible for the security on the ship. The Chief Security officer reports to the Staff Captain. The .. and I hate to use the word,, but REAL security people.... you don't see.. but they are there. I've never seen any mid-rank or above officer manning the security x-ray areas. Just junior deck officers and crew.

[raydon]

I work for a large healthcare company. We actively recruit in foreign countries and mostly in the Phillipines. Just after 9/11, the time for visa increased dramatically and we, in my industry, were left with some significant staffing gaps, not because of poor planning but because the Visa time doubled. We recruit there to fill staffing gaps unfilled by our active USA recruiting campaigns. The recruited Nurses receive exact benefits and wages a US trained nurse would receive (immigration requires this). Over time the visa problem has eased up and things have pretty much returned to normal, at least in the Philipines. By the way, it is much more difficult to hire a Canadian Nurse. Makes no sense, but that is a fact!

Recently on the Golden Princess (and we are HAL fans by the way) a Phillipino crew member shared there were many changes happening on Princess as well..(since CCL). One he thought was coming was the staff members leaving now at the end of their contract would be required to pay their plane fare to return. That is a hefty sum for someone to lay out and may result in less desiring to return. The cruiseline does "offer" to deduct it from their salary over the length of the contract. Apparently CCL already does this, but as you probably know, most of their service staff are Islanders and airfare would be considerably less. I also noticed on Princess, as we did on the Rotterdam in Nov., there are an increasing number of Eastern Europeans working in the dining rooms. Not sure why..just an observation. I prefer the Phillipino and Indonesian staff because of their quiet ways and also because I work with many folks from there. They are great folks but so are the other staff from other countries.

I do know we have relooked at our foreign recruiting and the expense it incurs.All companies whether the travel industry or the service industry or whatever have to pay attention to their bottom line. On our last cruise a couple of weeks ago my DH and I talked about how little our cruise fare had changed in 10 years but how much nicer the ships were. We just need to put everything in perspective. Way too much rambling from this girl!!!

Radiance of the Seas
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[peaches from georgia]

Esme said: ....there was a shortage of staff in the dining room on the Rotterdam last month and Willie, the Bar Manager, said his staff was down...

That sounds like a fact to me re the pax service staff on the Rotterdam, whether the overall crew of the Rotterdam had decreased or not.

[gizmo]

Sounds like a fact to me too.

[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (The grass is green; the sky is blue.)

(I only place the above observation in certain posts....only a few.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's a cryptic answer, but I'm also pretty dense. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

[lknick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think we are talking apples and oranges when you get into a World Cruise. From what I have been told, things are different on these cruises. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In price, in passenger compliment, in menu. As to itineraries and staffing:

1/20/04 Los Angeles 437 Crew – World Cruise
9/12/03 San Diego 431 - Panama canal, repositioning for New England
5/17/03 San Francisco 394 - Alaska<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One thing that bothers me is the removal of serving stations in the dining room. This leads me to believe it is more of a cutback than a visa problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your conclusion does not take into consideration that the system has been revised. The assistant servers are now runners, and therefore serving stations are no longer required.

Everyone has an opinion, but how many cruised with HAL during 1988, the year they were heading for bankruptcy. There were no assistant waiters and each waiter had 35 passengers.

Or would you rather have one waiter to a table, as I did in 1937 on QM1, and pay in today's dollars $21K.

You can't have everything! Only I am entitled to have it.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your conclusion does not take into consideration that the system has been revised. The assistant servers are now runners, and therefore serving stations are no longer required.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This system was not working very well on my cruise.

What would you say was a reasonable time to have your order taken? Let's say from the time you were handed the menu , until the steward took your order.

How about from the time your order was taken to the time your appetizer arrived?

[sail7seas]

Gizmo....

I have sensed that you have cruised a great many days on HAL. I have also sensed lately that you are quite displeased with HAL.

Is is a cumulative little bit of this and a little bit of that that is displeasing you or was it a giant goof up on your last cruise?

Or....in the alternative, am I incorrect and you are happy as can be with HAL these days?

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[gizmo]

There was no giant goof up on my cruise. If you read my review I had a great time, as a matter of fact I just posted this on another thread the other day. Cumulative would be a correct assumption.

[lknick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What would you say was a reasonable time to have your order taken? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Somewhere between McDonalds and La Tour d'Argent.

When I'm enjoying my table mates, as I do, then time is not of the essence.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[raydon]

Is it liar or lier....This board is way too serious for me......

Radiance of the Seas
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[sail7seas]

Oh my goodness. Must be the first time in the history of this Board.

I made a spelling error. I'm so very happy you took the effort to point it out for me. What a pity it would have been for it to go by unnoticed.

Shame on me.

So very sorry to offend.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[pollux]

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif S7S, They just found out you not perfect. I also http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif have been accused on this board for: Bad grammer etc. etc. I may not spell right but I sure can talk up a storm in several lanquages. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I still keep cruising as long as I can.

[localady]

S7S-
U mean we are suposed to speel korectly tu??? I is a chilld of the kalifornia skool sisdem.... http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[sail7seas]

Whaddayagonna Do??? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif



http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/SmileyHug.gif

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[Orcrone]

Phynalle, eye ken undahstand dem posts!

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

[gizmo]

I find it ironic that JKM7 alias S7S gets caught with a misspelled word on this board,after picking on a some poor person about their grammer on cruisemates. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[sail7seas]

Wow, am I ever glad this wasn't my PhD dissertation. Sure ranks close up there in importance, but....whew, that would have been a real bummer.

Must be great to be perfect. Boring, perhaps, but we should all strive for perfection.


Gizmo..... You do yourself no service with such nastiness. It is beneath you and very uncalled for.



"the grass is green; the sky is blue"

(figured it out yet???) http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/SmileyPeace.gif



<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[raydon]

At least it made y'all move away from who was correct about whether or not the service on HAL had reached a new low.

Radiance of the Seas
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[sail7seas]

In which dictionary would we find "y'all"? As long as we are going to criticize spelling...... I daresay my Merriam Webster does not have such a word.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[gizmo]

Like you prefer to stick to the numbers, I prefer to sick to the facts. I am quite sure what you post you believe to be the absolute truth...as do I.
As far as your grass and sky goes, there is nothing to figure out, since I don’t need an explanation.

Raydon,
You hit the nail on the head! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Since there are those that refuse to believe there could possibly be an issue and don't want to hear it anymore they turn the thread into something else.

[raydon]

This is truly fascinating.....nothing like striking a soft point. I am just having some fun. I love cruising, like HAL, actually haved cruised in their suites, like other lines as well and finally just got off the Golden Princess where I thought the service was great and truly enjoyed the sailing. I guess I always find the best things about my "holidays" and I bet we will truly enjoy our Thanksgiving cruise on the Radiance because all of our friends and family will be with us. In a couple of weeks we are off to Atlantis with a Grandchild...is it okay to admit I have those.....hopefully the service will still be the same!!http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Oh, never did the piled higher and deeper thesis but did the more s... one!

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[raydon]

Merriam Webster online does recognize y'all....defines it as a variant of "you all".
It is just that Jensen Beach is near Okeechobee and the "speak" here catches on!

Grass is only green here if you use the sprinkler system, but the sky is always blue!

Radiance of the Seas
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[localady]

Sky is only blue if you don't live in smog...http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But the sea is always blue, isn't that why we are here???

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[sail7seas]

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Guess no one has figured it out yet. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Quite remarkable for such clever folks.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[TedC]

Breathe in, breathe out.

[LizB1]

A few of my oservations on our recent Rotterdam cruise about reduction in staff. There has definitely been a reduction in the Dining Room and Ocean Bar staff. Where there used to be about four waiters/waitresses in the Ocean Bar and one person serving the hors d'oeuvres we only had one waitress and one waiter for the
whole lounge with another serving hors d'oeuvres. Our table was full with about ten of us each night and the supervisor was helping out to keep things moving.

In the dining room the two stewards were working as fast as they could with at least four more tables than they used to have, and we did find the service to be slow even though they were doing their very best to accommodate every table in a timely fashion.

I also spoke with Will and he told me the same thing he told Esme when she sailed. I believe since s7s sailed in March and when we were on the middle to end of May there has been a gradual cutback. Also found this to be true of deck stewards.

I find it hard to believe that this situation in reduction of staff is caused solely by the Visa situation...more like a combination of factors and perhaps some of the crew are not happy either with some of the changes and are not returning to the ships!?

[jhannah]

Well ... (as the late President used to say) ... if we want to get technical, the sky is not blue. Air is clear. The water molecules refract the sunlight coming through them so that blue gets through. (Just like the glaciers in Alaska.)

So there! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

'Vegas Jim

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LizB1:
I find it hard to believe that this situation in reduction of staff is caused solely by the Visa situation...more like a combination of factors and perhaps some of the crew are not happy either with some of the changes and are not returning to the ships!?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and as Liz said it is more of a combination of factors and the visas alone are not causing the problem.
Unhappy crew is a good point. I talked to 2 bartenders on my cruise. One, who was leaving the ship in Philly ,said he would probably not come back because he did not like the changes. The other said he did not like the changes but was not sure what he was going to do.

[darnapar]

Most people do not like change.

You can tell this from all the "old" HAL cruisers and their dislike of changes to the ship and services from what they are use to. In the end it will all sort out as HAL brings on staff who have only served under the new employment policies. Growing pains are just that painful. And that is what is happening to HAL right now.

[rkacruiser]

Since I am the one who started this thread, I am going to add an opinion or two.

It makes little sense to me that millions of dollars are being spent on up-grading the amenities on the ships, as the "Signature of Excellence" program is being advertised to doing, while purposefully reducing staff. It is the crew of HAL ships that make HAL special. And, I think corporate headquarters know this.

Where do the Unions of the employees fit into the changes that are reportedly being made(having to pay for uniforms, paying for return airfare home, etc.)? Would HAL not have to negotiate with these Unions before such changes are made? Would the employees not have a voice in such changes?

I am not yet convinced that visa approval delays are not the major reason for any reductions in staff that people have recently noticed.

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[elmorejj]

I have also been wondering where the union fit in with the changes. I wonder, do they operate on an X number of years contract with the union like on land or do they just carry a seamans union card and have no say so or vote in what is going on? it would be nice to find out....jean

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Where do the Unions of the employees fit into the changes that are reportedly being made(having to pay for uniforms, paying for return airfare home, etc.)? Would HAL not have to negotiate with these Unions before such changes are made? Would the employees not have a voice in such changes?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As a long time union member I realize there are "real unions" and "company unions"...I have often wondered which type HAL stewards have. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[imsulin]

Just an observation here: When we first started cruising in the 80's, (NCL, Carnival, RCI) most of the crew/staff were West Indian. We never noticed any problem with service. In the mid-90's, we began to notice many eastern European staff and crew. Most were/are very friendly, but we have run into a few problems with major rudeness - mainly in the onboard shops and at service desks. We love HAL because of its tradition of hiring Filipino and Indonesian crew, and this is really based on the history of the Dutch East India Company (1600's), based in Holland, and operating out of South Africa, Djarkata, (Indonesia), and the Phillipines. HAL's connection to Indonesia and the Phillipines is centuries old. One thing I've noticed, on HAL and on other cruise lines, is that the Indonesian staff are mostly in face-to-face service positions, while Filipinos tend to work more in the cleaning, buffet, and behind-the-scenes areas. Once on the NCL Norway, in one of the bars, an Indonesian bartender told me he was leaving because there were "too many Filipinos" (staff) on the ship. I've noticed a very subtle "division" between the Filipino (mostly Catholic) and the Indonesian (mostly Muslim) staff. I doubt that this has anything to do with what's going on, but since the Phillipines have long had US connections and interests, while Indonesia has not, there may be a major shift between the number of Filipino and the number of Indonesian staff, and they services they perform. Just my observations, mind you.

[RevNeal]

y'all

A Gender-Inclusive, North American English / Southern States Dialect, Personal Pronoun found in the Second Person Plural form.

Conjugation pattern:

I
You
He/she/it

We
Y'all
They

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
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[RevNeal]

In my opinion about 6 or 7 of us (8, including myself) need to board a Cruise ship and go through shore-time-de-toxification.

Let's go to the Crows Nest and soak in the view of the ocean! Drinks are on me! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Greg+
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[elmorejj]

Sign me up Greg, I`m ready..jean

[sail7seas]

Our docs are in for Maasdam Canada/New England....and none too soon!
I sure can use a dose of Crows and Ocean Bar.
This has been a rough stretch the last six months.

(seems ten days on Rotterdam in March was not nearly enough)

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[jhannah]

I'm in! September (our next sailing) seems so far away ... but I know it will be here before I know it.

(Rev, didn't know we could openly conjugate on this board.) http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

'Vegas Jim

[RevNeal]

Waiting for a cruise can be among the most exciting and exhausting of times. Thankfully, there are really only a few major things left for me to do before boarding ship. Here's a list of the things I must check off as having done before I can depart on vacation ... at least, this is the list as of today (it could always grow).

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>I have to preach and celebrate the Eucharist 15 more times. (Big deal ... I can do that standing on my head. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Now THAT's a funny mental image. LOL. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

<LI>I have to take my Dad on a fishing trip week after next. That will actually be fun.

<LI>I have to teach a week-long seminar in Sacramental Theology in early July.

<LI>I have to attend Jurisdictional Conference in mid/late July and participate in the election of 3 new Bishops for the South-Central Jurisdiction of the UMC.

<LI>I have to attend 1 district clergy meeting in early August.

<LI>I have a wedding to do in mid August, another in mid September.

<LI>I have to attend the retirement ceremony of our out-going Bishop in late August.

<LI>I have to attend the installation of our new Bishop early in September.

<LI>I get to attend the opening gala of the Dallas Symphony Orchestra in mid-September (Beethoven's 9th Symphony, among other lovely things).[/list]

And that's about it. Other than my daily and weekly duties, not to mention my writing schedule, there's not much ahead of me. Yet ... there IS enough that it will help make the days and weeks go quickly.

Please, Lord, let them go QUICKLY.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Rev, didn't know we could openly conjugate on this board. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So long as our online intercourse is always polite. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
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Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[elmorejj]

Greg, you are going to be so busy that Sept. and the Zaandam will be here before you know it! Wish we were doing the reverse repo with you....but we will be back on her in December.....jean

[imsulin]

Revneal - just have to tell you how much I have enjoyed your posts! Getting personal here...but are you of the Weslyan faith? I'm one of the original Protestants (Lutheran), and haven't been to church in years! I do, however, call Trinity Lutheran the day before Reformation Sunday and ask what time the service is. Then I don't show up. I used to deliberately bring a bottle of Mogen David wine and 2-day old bread for Communion when it was my turn....and I put peanut butter on those chunks of Communion bread. I used to genuflect backwards, in the hopes that the pastor would notice it. I used to sit right in the middle of the pew, and put five LBWs on each side of me. (Pew hogger!). I used to sing "A Mighty Fortress" very loudly and very off-key, and get very dirty looks from the Swedes and Norwegians next to me. Of course, I was about 10 years old at the time. My pastor has long since forgiven me, and so has God! I think.

[RevNeal]

imsulin,

LOL .... you sound like some church members in my own congregation! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for your question ... I'm a United Methodist, which means that I'm a member of a denomination founded by John Wesley because the Church of England failed to do its duty at the end of the Revolutionary War. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm Wesleyan-Arminian in my theology and Anglo-Catholic in my spirituality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I used to genuflect backwards, in the hopes that the pastor would notice it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FOFLMHO ... that would make you Russian Orthodox!!!! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Greg+
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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Greg, you are going to be so busy that Sept. and the Zaandam will be here before you know it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jean, actually ... this summer's schedule is light by comparison with last year's. I don't have something major listed for every week, and no Schools of Mission to teach in (thank God ... 10 years straight of teaching in the Mission Schools is enough to make anyone batty). Frankly, there's just enough activity to give me stuff to look forward to. Most events are spaced about 2 weeks apart from the events before and after, meaning that I'll always have something coming up, but not so much that I can't relax and do some research and writing on my next book.

But ... you're right ... this summer is going to go fast. The period in which time will slow down and crawl will be those 24 or so days in Sept before departure. Those last 3 weeks will be murder. Even with the installation of a new Bishop (1 worship service one evening) and a wedding (1 Saturday afternoon) there's not much going on those weeks (especially not during the weed days). SO ... all the more reason to throw myself into my writing. I've got 100 days to get as much of this book written as I can. I might even be able to get a good chunk of it done!

Greg+
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Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[ekerr19]

Sorry to go back on topic, but this topic interests me. I honestly believe the crew continue to get the "short end of the stick" from HAL; and to us, the crew is one of their most valuable assets.

It is my understanding that because the ships are not registered in the U.S., they are not subject to U.S. wage and hour laws, therefore there would be no union. I have heard different reasoning for the various ship registries, but I am unfamiliar with details regarding this.

From our discussions with numerous crew over the years, I understand that they are under a contract for a specific time period for each ship and paid minimally.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[sail7seas]

The fact the ships are not U.S. Registered or that the crews are citizens of other countries (although some are U.S. citizens BTW), does not mean they do not have unions.

There are labor unions in countries other than U.S.

How effective the Indonesian Seaman's Union is or what is is called, I do not know.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[ekerr19]

Sail-

You are right, I should have specified. What I should have posted is - unions as we know and understand their operations in the U.S.

ekerr (DH) is a proud member of the IBEW, and has been for many years. Everytime we cruise, we try to get a better understanding of labor practices worldwide.

It is a subject of great and ongoing interest to both DH & I, and helps keep us humble and grateful, IMO.

I also understand there are many U.S. citizens employed on HAL ships, one of the Club HAL staff our Zuiderdam cruise had recently graduated from C.U. Boulder (not far from us), but I would venture they are the minority.

The point I was striving for was that many individuals (worldwide) do not have the opportunity to experience fair labor laws in their own countries. I often times feel they are somewhat exploited by companies such as HAL (and many other companies, don't get me wrong) because working conditions in their home countries are so poor.

I am not trying to make a political statement - so I'll just leave it - but, there was a time when the majority of employees we talked to were happy to work for HAL. We don't necessarily find that the case any longer.

At any rate, the Visa issue does come into play, no doubt about it. Staffing levels appeared to be down on all our post 9/11 cruises.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[raydon]

It is not a problem with Visa from the Phillipines....we have no difficulty at all. Like every big company, when one has to cut to make profits for share holders the biggest impact that can be made is in the area of man power and productivity. Sad but true.

Radiance of the Seas
http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=008000&cdt=2004;11;21;17;00;00&timezone=GMT-0500

[rkacruiser]

If one surfs Holland America's website, one will find a page titled "Shipboard Employment".

To quote from that page: "Due to labor agreements between the ship-owning companies and unions in Holland, Indonesia, and the Philippines, most of our crew positions(including the majority of service staff personnel) are limited to members of those unions."

So, those unions do exist. But, the question remains as to the role they play in setting working conditions for the service staff.

In reading the information on the pages dealing with employment with Holland America, it is obvious that the Company recognizes the importance of their staff to the success of the Line. Why, then, would they reduce staff to the degree that some believe has been done, thereby endangering that success?

One of those who have posted to this topic stated that there may be a combination of factors causing the perception of reduced staffing. I think this may well be true. And, delays in Visa approvals may be the prime factor.

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[lknick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The point I was striving for was that many individuals (worldwide) do not have the opportunity to experience fair labor laws in their own countries. I often times feel they are somewhat exploited by companies such as HAL (and many other companies, don't get me wrong) because working conditions in their home countries are so poor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, this is the line being played by American unions to justify their ineffectiveness in improving productivity to justify salaries desired.

Unions are not an American invention. Gompers formed what became the AFL...a pure trade union...in the 1880s. Strong unions appeared in both the Netherlands and Prussia [Germany] during the 1840s, in England during the 1860s. As Indonesia was a colony of the Netherlands, the same unions appeared there.

Today, some militants might call the Indonesian unions 'company unions' as they do work for the better good of both the worker and the employer, but the Hotel and Cruise employees union in the Indonesia is not a paper tiger.

Much of this confusion comes from what people hear from the crew. Little is completely accurate, ie "I only get $50 a month." Yes, he does receive US$50 'walking around money' but US$250 is sent directly to his family. Besides that, he also receives other benefits such as medical and dental care. Including extras, calculations for a 12 months contract come to between US$30,000 and US$40,000 per year...more than many US based workers with similar job responsibility.

The estimates that by adding tips to the cruise account will increase this amount more than the deductions for uniforms and airfare. [btw, I understand it took over 18 months to negotiate this arrangement with the union.]

So in my mind, there is no reason to claim cruise line workers are not fairly compensated and are not properly representated.

Now, if only cruisers would consent to being tendered to a ship outside the US 3 mile limit, there would be no visa problem.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[ekerr19]

Iknick-

Thanks for contributing... I can understand many of your points, but I don't quite understand the math...

$300 a month for 12 months is $3,600 - medical and dental per employee at our firm ranges from about $3,100 (annually) for single coverage to $9,600 (annually) for family coverage. The rates are based on the age of employee.

Assuming $3,600 base salary and $9,600 (100% company paid family medical and dental) the annual wage would be $13,200 - far short of $30,000 - $40,000... what am I missing?

I am not trying to be sarcastic or aurgumentative - I am naturally curious about this and would like to get a better understanding of how it works.

Also, $50 walking around money would last most people a week or so... especially if they were frequently purchasing calling cards to call home. It does not seem to be much for the employee to keep...

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[lknick]

Just to run some numbers. Any one may be incorrect.

The example is for a cabin steward:

10 cabins X 2 people per cabin X US$3 per person = US$60 per week in 'tips'.

365 days per year X US$60 per week = US$21,900 +13,200 = 35,100...right in the middle of the range.

Say 20% remove their 'tips' and tip nothing, then the number drops to US$30,720.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[InterestedBystander]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the annual wage would be $13,200 - far short of $30,000 - $40,000... what am I missing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Their tips.

While I was calculating tip amounts, lknick did a better job than I did and posted first, so I will make only a couple points.

The salaries made by crew members add up to KINGLY wages in their countries.

Their families live very well. The crew members make a conscious and informed choice to work away from home for 6 to 10 months a year in order to make these kinds of wages.

That's why they stand in line to work on cruise ships.

[rkacruiser]

lknick--

Many thanks for the information you have provided, both about the strength of the Unions as well as the salary information.

In your opinion, is there an actual staffing reduction problem aboard the ships (or a temporary staff shortage aboard certain ships at certain times) or are the perceptions of some passengers simply incorrect?


ekerr19--

Now I understand why some people I have met on some cruises give prepaid phone cards to favorite stewards in addition to their regular gratuity. And, why the stewards so much appreciate receiving those phone cards!

Thank you for your contribution to our discussion, as well!

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[lknick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In your opinion, is there an actual staffing reduction problem aboard the ships (or a temporary staff shortage aboard certain ships at certain times) or are the perceptions of some passengers simply incorrect? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, they are not incorrect.

I have heard stewards state that they now have 2 to 4 more cabins than previously, but I really don't put too much stock in what hotel staff tell me. However, I did note that on the Prinsendam crossing our steward was still cleaning at noon when normally they would be through by 10-11.

I don't know how to respond to dining staff. On the Prinsendam, the new system of runners and waiter had been put into place and it seemed to work well. Last fall, on the Oosterdam, it was total chaos. Fewer staff or a bad system, I don't know which. On the Zuiderdam in October, it was beyond terrible. Staff just seemed to fall over each other. But last August on the Zuiderdam, it was fantastic for our four table family group.

Now whether these observations were due to 'my luck of the draw' or a systematic failure, I do not know.

The one thing I am sure of. HAL used to be consistent from cruise to cruise. Now, it's anybody's guess.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[ekerr19]

I now see why I wasn't getting the picture, I wasn't including the tips.

Thanks everyone, this helps put it in perspective.

I never thought about the pre-paid phone cards as tips. It's a nice suggestion.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[lknick]

I just thought of another wage comparison which may be meaningful.

The gal who cleans my house receives $85 per cleaning. She cleans one house a day. This makes her annual salary $22,500/year assuming she works every week.

She's a blond from Tennessee, not in any way a minority.

Lets say she doubles her output to two houses...which would mean a 12 hour day...then her income would rise to $45,000 a year.

And from this she must pay taxes, FICA, buy her own insurance and cover her own transportation expenses.

Isn't she doing the same job as a cabin steward? The point is, they're both 'unskilled labor'. So you can't compare them with plumbers, auto mechanics or factory workers.

And I'll say, she's a lot cuter than most cabin stewards.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Lets say she doubles her output to two houses...which would mean a 12 hour day...then her income would rise to $45,000 a year <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If she worked 365 days a year,(the figure you used for cruise workers) then she would make over $60,000 a year.

[lknick]

I get it.Your point is they are underpaid. And they need American representation. Now, take a look at the employment in the Seafarers Union and compare it to what it used to be.

Now deduct board room and board from your calculation of the house cleaners wages.

Then compare the crew members wage to the average workers wage in their home country.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[rkacruiser]

Postings made by those who have been on HAL ships very recently have been rather positive, I think. When service is mentioned in the reviews, people seem very satisfied for the most part.

Last week's Quarterly Conference Call to investment analysts who follow Carnival Corporation revealed that CCL is doing very well, financially. The individual operating companies are doing well, also(Holland America revenue up 100% from last year). I deduce from the information I heard that cutting service staff to "reduce costs" may have happened on selected cruises when the fares were rock-bottom low. From a financial perspective, such reductions are not needed now, if in fact such reducations were made.

If peoples' perceptions that service is now at satisfactory levels, this indicates to me that there has not been a change in corporate policy to reduce service staff across the board. I submit that visa problems for Holland America's staff is the culprit when one suspects that there are not enough service personnel for a particular area aboard ship.

Perhaps we Holland America loyalists should work with our Senators and Representatives to encourage a more productive Immigration and Naturalization Service. They are probably understaffed and underfunded and cannot properly do the job they are being asked to do, in a timely manner.

(Just as an aside, the INS inspector I encountered when I arrived at Newark International Airport on April 30th was the most pleasant and welcoming immigration official I have ever met. We do have some super people working for us taxpayers.)

What do you think?

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I deduce from the information I heard that cutting service staff to "reduce costs" may have happened on selected cruises when the fares were rock-bottom low.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did you come to this conclusion?
I don't see how they can choose selected cruises to reduce staff. Please enlighten me.

[jhannah]

I guess I read his post differently than you. What I interpreted (maybe not right, either) is that from the numbers people were throwing out for staffing levels that it could be deduced that they were cutting staff on selected sailings. The next sentence points out his opinion that financially this isn't necessary, IF in fact such reductions were made. I just read the post as an opinion that it's a Visa issue.

'Vegas Jim

[sail7seas]

Ditto Jim....that is how I interpreted the post as well.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[rkacruiser]

I am glad to see that this thread was able to be moved from the old Boards. We have had some good discussions.

'Vegas Jim and sail7seas are correct in their thinking that it is my opinion that the basic problem is the visa approval issue.

To gizmo: I know nothing about how staffing is done or decided upon for an individual cruise. One of the posters indicated that on a Zuiderdam cruise, the crew was only at 92% capacity. I am thinking that a "you get what you pay for" mentality may have been at work in Seattle for those cruises that had very low fares. Maybe, as contracts were completed for some of the crew on those cruises, these people were not immediately replaced.

Any way, from the posts I have read from cruisers who have recently returned from their cruises, staffing conditions are "normal"; I am not reading alot of complaints.

[gizmo]

I can see your logic but only to a point. This would not work on the cruise I took and certainly not on that Rotterdam cruise out of NY that a few people from this board took. That NY cruise was by no means a budget priced cruise like a lot of the Zuiderdam cruises. Those fares were sky high.

[sail7seas]

I am eager to see what the crew level on Maasdam is for cabin stewards and dining stewards. We are so very accustomed to Maasdam and have sailed her so very many days, it will be immediately obvious to us if there are extreme changes.


We do not think our per diem on Maasdam for Canada/New England is budget by any means and if "get what you pay for" is the rationale, then Maasdam should have a full complement.

We are looking forward to returning to "My Maasdam" and hopefully will find things as wonderful as always.

[darnapar]

The "you get what you pay for" statement doesn't hold water. The prices for HAL Alaska cruises in July are currently starting at $569.00. The Zuiederdam is more than that until Aug 28. I don't think HAL is going into this with the idea that their Vista ships are "budget boats"

[Mary Ann 2]

We just got off the Zuiderdam on Saturday. I was not impressed with the dining room service. The staff ran from one table to the next and didn't have time to personalize any of the service like on past cruises. The wine steward was serving about a fourth of our floor, and after not getting our wine by the time the entree was served one night, we had to send the waiter looking for him.

We were so surprised the first day that the room steward never came by to introduce himself or see if we needed anything. Are they having to deliver the luggage themselves? We couldn't figure out where he was all day. We did finally find him the second day, and he was careful to leave ice morning and night like we asked after that. Even then it did seem like someone here mentioned that he was cleaning cabins much longer than I remember.

We definitely felt that they were overworked or short-handed. On the other hand, Nikkie in the Crow's Nest was a bright shining star like we remembered our last server in the Crow's Nest - calling us by name and welcoming us every night. That was nice.

Overall, I felt like the level of service was below HAL's standard.