Informal night was misunderstood by most.

[gonnago]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The formal nights are self explanatory. The 'informal night' should perhaps be renamed as 'semi formal' since it is 'jacket or sports coat' for men.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
On the Ryndam in late May, DH and I and our traveling companions were way overdressed on informal night with him in a suit coat w/o tie and me in a dressy pant suit and heels. I was floored that so many people thought informal meant casual. Some were in jeans, and they were certain that they had interpreted HAL's dress code correctly.

On the daily program, IMHO, Hal should spell out what informal means or rename it semi-formal. Too many people don't know this, especially first-time cruisers. I only knew because of reading this board....for which I am very thankful

"Thanks to all for your help & advice. Our May 28th cruise was much better for it!"

[WindyCity]

Guess most people don't read the "Know Before You Go" booklet. The dress code is spelled out there.

Westerdam Eastern Caribbean 12/12/04

[ekerr19]

WindyCity-

That's exacly what I was thinking when I read this post! I can't say I've seen jeans on informal night on any of our cruises, but I've not done Alaska yet.

gonnago-

IMO, you can never be overdressed. Think of everyone else as underdressed! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[bryanwal]

Well I went to the Bon Marche yesterday to buy a nice navy blazer to wear on informal night, so at least I'll be dressed right even if I don't fit in.

- Bryan W
Oct 2000 Disney Magic - Eastern Caribbean
Jun 2002 Disney Magic - Western Caribbean
Jul 2004 HAL Oosterdam - Alaska
Feb 2005 Celebrity Mercury - Mexican Riviera

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[thefer]

Hi

I went on the Volendam in early May. On the daily schedule that we received the day before said "No jeans or shorts allowed" for the informal, casual and formal nights.

jennifer

[F5Loar]

Informal on HAL and other ships that use that term are becoming a joke. Many think the word means "not"formal. Semi-formal to some means more but some think that means nice shirt and tie and no jacket! It's really funny to sit back and watch the door at what shows up on informal nights. It's down to less than half the men wearing any type of jacket at all and many of those take it off as soon as they sit down. They really should just drop the informal night and put in casual so we can pack one less bulky coat that is only used on one night that nobody including the HAL staff care if you wear it or not. I like to follow the codes but when you get there and find you are out numbered you have to give in and say if you can't lick them join them. Until HAL enforces the dress codes they write it's not going to get any better as the years go on.
And HAL is not alone on this issue. Other lines like Carnival,Princess, NCL, Celebrity,Costa,Disney are just as guilty of not enforcing what they preach. I hope to live long enough to see cruise lines enforce their rules in all areas from dress to smoking.

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[camachinist]

IMO, it's never inappropriate to be dressed nicely when entering a dining room. I always dress up (dress pants, collared shirt, sometimes sport jacket) even when entertaining at home. I don't expect everybody to feel that way and enjoy them for what life experience they bring to the table, not the clothes they're wearing. For me, it's the same on a cruise. I can't ever remember going to a dining room not being dressed up. The buffet is another matter, however http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Having said that, some of my best dining conversations have been with folks dressed in shorts and casual shirts. I only noticed later, when saying goodnight.

Good company, good food...what more can a person want? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pat

[c-cruise]

The informal nights are ridiculous, I wish they would get rid of them. Why not just have the two formal nights, have the rest be casual and be done with it. I am not going to drag another sports coat/jacket accross the country just so I can hang it off the back of my chair on informal nights. I will be sticking with my polo shirts and kakis for both casual and informal nights. On 15 cruises I have never yet seen anyone be denied access to the dining room because of what they were wearing. It is just not really that big of a deal.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[Aussie Gal]

We have only cruised on European itineraries and obviously from what I am reading informal nights on European cruises are completely different. We have found that everyone dresses up with a jacket and usually tie for the men and the ladies in very smart outfits, not much different from formal nights. Perhaps on the European itineraries a different type of person cruises.

Jennie.

The next cruise is always the best!

3RD OCTOBER, 2004 PRINSENDAM
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[barriedavis]

Just returned from Westerdam from Venice to England. The comment about European cruising appears not to be correct. I decided not to take a separate jacket other than my tux because of plane weight restrictions intending to use the Lido on the three informal nights instead of the dining room. I looked in on one of those nights and there were many without ties, ie polo shirts, some with jeans. It seems that anything goes. Incidentally, there was a rule that if you were not at your table by 15 minutes after your seating time, you would be locked out. Thsi also sems not to apply as people who had been on trips which returned late were coming in up to an hour after their time without protest from the staff. It seems that rules are now suggestions, regardless of what this may do to others, ie. other diners or later sittings, which may be disrupted as a result.

Bazzer

[ron46936]

The problem with some people's interpretation of what HAL means by "informal" is that some merely rely upon the English language instead of looking up HAL's special instructions. In the dictionary informal is defined as "casual".

I do agree that informal nights should be eliminated. A sport coat is appropriate for casual night if you are so inclined.

[Jacqueline]

Thanks fpr the feedback on the Westerdam... I also am trying to figure out how to pack for a 2 week trip on a ship with no laundry facilites and three children.
I think I will have dh bring his tux and his blazer....My son is another story... A blazer for sure. Last summer he wore it every night from casual to formal on the tahitian princess and it was no problem. Keeping the DR cool keeps the men in dress code.

Jacqueline
Constellation 3/20/04
HAL Westerdam 7/30/04
Tahitian Princess August 2003
Grand Princess Western Caribbean 2003
Brilliance of the Seas Baltic 2002
Ocean Princess- Alaska 2001
Celebrity Zenith- Bermuda 2001
Grand Princess Med 2000

[Krazy Kruizers]

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif In-formal

We agree that informal nights should be done away with on 7 day cruises. Now don't get us wrong, we love to dress up and do so whenever we go out for dinner at home.

Husband will still take a sports jacket in addition to his tuxedo on short cruises because we do like to eat in the Pinnacle Grill a couple of times and don't always go there on a formal night.

On longer cruises, like 21 day cruises, we have found that more people dress up than they do on the shorter cruises.

For quite some time we have noticed that HAL has not been addressing the dress code. AND HAL has not been enforcing the "15" minute rule for the dining room.

On our last 13 day cruise we watched nearly every evening the same people arrive at 6:40 for their 6:15 dinner time in the lower level. And they always came in the upper level and paraded down the stairs for everyone nearby to see.

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RevNeal]

I tend to agree that HAL should adjust their terminology to reflect colloquial usage. In other words, they should rename "Informal" night "Semi-Formal."

I know what HAL means by "Informal" because I've read (about a thousand times) the Know-Before-You-Go Booklet, where it outlines proper dress for "Informal Nights."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Comfortable, relaxed clothing is fine for evenings designated as casual; however, T-shirts, jeans, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are not allowed in the dining room, Lido restaurant, or public areas during the evening hours. During informal nights, dresses or pantsuits for women and jackets (tie optional) for men are standard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On Informal Nights I wear a suit and tie (or clerics), or I'll wear a pair of dress-slacks, a jacket, and tie (or clerics). I know that the tie is optional, but if I'm not wearing a clerical shirt I much prefer to wear a tie than have the neck open. But ... that's just me.

To ease the packing issue (which is a real issue when one's clothing is as big as mine), I'll usually wear a pair of dress slacks and jacket in transit to the ship from home; that way, I'll have informal-night garb and won't have taken up space by packing it.

Greg+
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[RevNeal]

I noticed last year during my Inside-Passage Alaska Cruise that clothing standards were significantly relaxed compared to the longer cruises I'm used to taking. Allow me to quote from my own review of that cruise relative to Dress Codes:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dress Code Violations:

The Holland America Line has a well defined Dress Code for Formal, Informal, and Casual nights which can be found in the "Know Before You Go" booklet; additionally, the Dress Code for each evening is published in the Daily Program. Despite this, many of the passengers on this particular cruise either ignored the code altogether, or they only poorly observed it. For example, on Formal Nights the number of men dressed in Tuxedos was far lower than I have ever seen on a HAL cruise; a larger number of the men were dressed in dark suits and ties -- which is perfectly fine, and these men looked smart -- but the apparent choice-of-clothing for a great many men on both Formal Nights appeared to be slacks and a blazer ... often with a tie, but sometimes without. Even still, it was not uncommon to see men without jackets, without ties, and even in jeans and t-shirts. Interestingly, the Informal Night Dress Code was more faithfully observed by a larger percentage of men than the Formal Night Code, but Casual nights were a couture nightmare: jeans and t-shirts were out in-force, with shorts and sweat suits being worn even in the Rotterdam Dining Room. Far from "dressy" or "country club casual," this was more a form of "sloppy casual." The women were sometimes better-dressed than the men, but only marginally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greg+
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[ASM]

I don't think changing the designation from informal to semiformal would cause less confusion. I live in a part of the country where semiformal still means dark suit and cocktail dress ( what many pax consider formal!), informal means jacket w/ or w/out tie and dinner dress or pants suit, and casual is resort casual--what you wear for everything else (except exercise, housework, yard work & sometimes a dash to the grocery store!).

[AlinaMaria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> IMO, you can never be overdressed. Think of everyone else as underdressed!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree! It seems that this happens a lot with cruises in the Caribbean, did not see much of this on the Rotterdam last February. But I've seen it in Princess and much worse in RCI. RCI calls it "smart casual" which is definitely very misleading, I guess a lot of people don't get the "smart" part of it. The only cruise line that I have seen succeed in describing it is Celebrity that calls it "semiformal". Some might look a bit "overdressed" but I rather see my fellow passengers overdressed than underdressed, at least it makes the dinning experience much more enjoyable. I do believe that a nice restaurant, with a nice gourmet menu deserves adequate dress codes. I truly hope that dress codes do not go the same way our business environment is going, so many companies are going with this new "business casual" which is a joke in most companies. I work at a health insurance company and some of the coworkers are so casual all week long it is sometimes embarrasing, they may not have jean or sneakers but some of the clothes are ready to be recycled or disposed of, if you know what I mean. The sad part: some of those wearing these clothes are supposed to be "management". I have yet to see our CEO with a suit! And the so called "casual Friday" have turned into "take me to the ballpark outfit day or I'm ready to clean house outfit day". . .

Sorry, but this topic gets the best of me. Yes, I like to dress nice for dinner, definitely for church, and I loooove formal nights. I guess I was born to late, I should have lived in the 40s and 50s, I just love how people used to take pride in their well groomed looks back then. I suffered as a teenager during the "hippie era" and now this "grunge" drives me crazy. I am lucky that I had parents that taught me right, taught me manners, and how to properly dress according to the situation.

Thank you for "listening". I pray and hope that HAL and Celebrity don't change their codes, it's just about the only cruise lines I can afford in a nursing salary where elegance still matters.

AlinaMaria

11/04 HAL/Zuiderdam
02/04 HAL/Rotterdam
09/03 RCI/Majesty of the Seas
04/03 RCI/Navigator of the Seas
06/02 Princess/Grand Princess
05/98 Celebrity/Mercury
07/97 Celebrity/Century
06/96 Celebrity/Century
05/95 Celebrity/Zenith
06/82 Premier/Dolphin

[jhannah]

I agree that changing the designation won't change anything. As Greg points out, HAL is very clear in its expectations for the three evening attire levels. I believe there is minimal misunderstanding. We're back to the old "it's my vacation and I'll dress as I darn well please" mantra. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

'Vegas Jim

[barriedavis]

Its worth noting that, on the Dawn Princess in January, those people who wanted to take part in the on stage activities (Newlywed Game etc) were chosen only if they were wearing suggested and appropriate attire for the evening in question. On Westerdam last week, one of the guys on stage, on formal night, was wearing a baseball cap, tee shirt, shorts and flip flops. If HAL wanted to enforce the suggested code, here is a way they could easily do it and make the non observers take a back seat to those who followed the code. I have to say that he looked out of place rather than anyone else in the room.

Bazzer

[darnapar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't think changing the designation from informal to semiformal would cause less confusion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think changing the wording makes a big difference.
Informal to me has always meant business casual. Semi formal means a suit or sports jacket. What else would informal mean when the cruiseline lists:
2 formal nights
1 semi formal night
4 informal nights.

[gonnago]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Guess most people don't read the "Know Before You Go" booklet. The dress code is spelled out there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was with a tour group and several of those had not read all HAL's information. But those were by no means the only ones dressed casually or less. Jeans were worn by some guests that night and no one with HAL said a word.

HAL is making the situation worse by not enforcing their rules and/or suggestions about dress.

Alaska's cruise shouldn't be any different than in the Caribbean with regard to dress codes. Both are relaxed parts of the world IMHO

"Thanks to all for your help & advice. Our May 28th cruise was much better for it!"

[lddam]

A rose by any other name ...

My wife and I just returned from a 14-day on the Noordam, and the dress code for the evening is stated on each daily "On Board" together with a definition of what is expected. Casual is defined as "Comfortable attire, but no shorts, T-shirts or jeans please." Informal reads "Dress or blouses and slacks suggested for ladies. Jackets required for men." Formal is described as "Cocktail dresses or gowns for the ladies. Tuxedos or business suits suggested for men (jacket and tie required)."

That seems plain enough for me, and IMO, changing labels to Formal, Semi-formal, Informal will have little impact on what we see happening in the dining rooms. Those who have a sense of deportment will read and follow the dress codes, and those who don't will read and ignore the dress codes. If what I saw on the Noordam is typical of HAL, then the vast majority of PAX are adhering to the dress code and dining room staff are turning a blind eye to what PAX are wearing as they enter the dining room. Any and all were admitted regardless of their garb, and little attention was paid either by staff or fellow passengers to the fact that some had not followed the code for the evening. Life just went on as before;that is, good food and drink were served, conversations flowed, and believe it or not, everyone STILL seemed to have a good time.

The bottom line is that Marcia and I observe the dress code because we enjoy it and for us, it adds to allure of cruising. If someone chooses not to, so be it. We don't let that affect our level of enjoyment one iota.

Dave & Marcia
R.E.D.I.S.
(Retired, Every Day Is Saturday)

[GAndie]

Egads! I was reared observing semi-formal at our dining table EVERY day of the week for dinner in my own home! I never would have even thought about wearing shorts or t-shirts to dinner at my house. Mother would have me sent to my room with NOTHING to eat if I couldn't get dressed and be downstairs before the appetizer was served!

[c-cruise]

I just don't get why people care what other people wear to dinner. Does it really diminish your cruise experience that much if someone doesn't wear a jacket on informal night? Now I am not suggesting that it is ok to wear jeans on formal night, but the culture has changed and more casual clothes are widely accepted.

It must be a regional difference. I live in Seattle which is an extremely casual area (I often wear jeans to work). I can see why people who live in more formal areas would have a differing opinion on dress codes.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[Spender Nui]

When we started cruising there were two kinds of dress for dinner. Tux for formal nights and jacket and tie for all others.

That being said, I enjoyed Renaissance where jackets or ties were never necessary (some wore them) but everyone was dressed neat, no shorts, jeans or shirts without collars.

Whatever the dress code requires, even if I don't like it, I follow and feel others should too, out of respect for their fellow passengers if nothing else.

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now I am not suggesting that it is ok to wear jeans on formal night, but the culture has changed and more casual clothes are widely accepted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct, the culture has changed with regard to what is considered "ok" for wear on various formal and semi-formal occasions. For example, I watched the procession of people going through the capital Rotunda to view the Late President Reagan's body as he lay in state, and I must say that what some people believed acceptable for paying their "last respects" to a President left MUCH to be desired. Yes, things have changed ... and, in my opinion, not always "for the better."

Do I really "care" what other people wear? No, I don't, but that doesn't mean that I don't notice how they dress and the lack of respect which they show to their fellow passengers and the Cruise Line. Frankly, I just don't want to be picked on and called "an old fuddy" or an "elitist" simply because I prefer to respect my hosts' wishes and dress according to the published code.

My word ... I CAN'T be an "elitist!" I usually book an inside cabin!!!!!! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Greg+
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[digby]

I don't think it will be long before all dress rules are done away with. Young (and many older) people are not happy to HAVE to dress up on vacation UNLESS they want to. Being clean and neat should be the only requirement. I've never understood how what another person is wearing has any influence on my enjoyment of an event.

[RevNeal]

Well ... I'm young and yet I enjoy dressing up.

Greg+
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[jhannah]

Well, if you don't like dressing up, then don't take a cruise. It's different than being at home and going to work, so don't compare it with that. While many may think that dressing for dinner is anachronistic, it's still very much a part of cruising tradition. If a cruise line wishes to preserve that, so be it. If someone doesn't want to observe it, then go where you'll be more comfortable.

'Vegas Jim

[seatrial]

I have a question. I enjoy dressing up and I don't mind wearing coats at all. However, I often get really hot in the dining room on ships. I think it's a combination of too much wine,eating too much, and the room not being cool enough for me. The ladies are usually cold because their clothing is much less robust than the mens wear. I would be much more comfortable if I could remove my coat on occasion. How unacceptable is this? I always wear long-sleeved shirts with coats. I'm just curious what others think.

[lddam]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now I am not suggesting that it is ok to wear jeans on formal night, but the culture has changed and more casual clothes are widely accepted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct, the culture _has_ changed with regard to what is considered "ok" for wear on various formal and semi-formal occasions. For example, I watched the procession of people going through the capital Rotunda to view the Late President Reagan's body as he lay in state, and I must say that what some people believed acceptable for paying their "last respects" to a President left MUCH to be desired. Yes, things have changed ... and, in my opinion, not always "for the better."

Do I really "care" what other people wear? No, I don't, but that doesn't mean that I don't notice how they dress and the lack of respect which they show to their fellow passengers and the Cruise Line. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My word ... I CAN'T be an "elitist!" I usually book an inside cabin!!!!!! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Greg+
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(Retired, Every Day Is Saturday)

[lddam]

Sorry, I messed up that last post.

Dave & Marcia
R.E.D.I.S.
(Retired, Every Day Is Saturday)

[c-cruise]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well, if you don't like dressing up, then don't take a cruise<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, there is a well thought out solution. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And you are right, it is different than being at home or being at work.... its a vacation! Dressing up may be a cruising tradition and a couple of formal nights are fine and dandy with me, but things are changing... freestyle, Personal choice, etc. are going to be the rule rather than the exception. I don't think it will be long before the often maligned informal night is a thing of the past on the majority of main stream cruise lines. I for one will be leaving my blazers and sports coats at home....

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I would be much more comfortable if I could remove my coat on occasion. How unacceptable is this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an EXCELLENT question. I'm with you in that I frequently find myself getting too hot in the dining room. In general, I've not taken my jacket off because I don't relish the thought of people seeing my back SOAKED with sweat. Once I went back to the cabin and changed undershirts and dress shirts (putting on fresh undershirt and dress shirt) after dinner so that I didn't have to walk around soaking wet.

However, on informal nights I HAVE taken off my jacket on occasion when I've worn a colored shirt that doesn't show the sweat so much. Usually, it hasn't been a problem, but once when I took it off -- on the Rotterdam V a bunch of years ago -- I was quietly reminded that I was supposed to wear the jacket the entire evening. I responded back that I was burning up, and the supervisor went away and, almost immediately, I felt a lovely cool wave of air hit me. He then came back and asked if that was better, I said it was, and put my jacket back on. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Frankly, today I wouldn't worry about it ... I doubt they'd say anything (except, perhaps, on the Statendam, where it appears they still enforce the code).

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dressing up may be a cruising tradition and a couple of formal nights are fine and dandy with me, but things are changing... freestyle, Personal choice, etc. are going to be the rule rather than the exception. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there some reason why every "main stream" cruise line must be just like every other line? Why can't we have a bunch of DIFFERENT lines that cater to the likes and dislikes of different demographics and groups? Why can't NCL, Princess, CCL, and RCCL each do things their own particular ways -- "freestyle, Personal Choice, etc" -- and Cunard, HAL, and others can do things their own particular ways: i.e, variations of the more "traditional" fare. That way, we can all have our cake and eat it too?

In other words, why must we traditionalists always give way to the "new and improved" ways of doing things?

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[c-cruise]

No, there is no reason they all need to be the same, but I am not making this stuff up. Just look at what is going on in the industry and you will see that it won't be long before "traditional" dining is largely a thing of the past. Multiple smaller dining rooms and flexible dining times are becoming more the norm on most new-builds. Heck, even HAL has recently switched to 4 dinner seatings to accomodate those who want a more flexible dining experience. More and more people don't want to be told when and where to eat. They want choice and flexibility and the cruise lines are offering that.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[BigDave]

I find the 'informal' night conversation interesting.

I hate packing extra but I'll squeeze in a sport coat and a extra shirt.

Frankly I am a 'warm' person, and don't feel comfortable wearing coats, and wouldn't consider wearing it the rest of the evening.

I wear a suit to formal dinners, but have never worn my sport coat and I've had it 10 years. (My wife insisted I get at least one, but it just isn't something folks my age wear)

I was expecting the same thread as Princess or RCI boards decrying barbarians wearing shorts or jeans to the dining room (which I agree with), instead I find the old HAL standard of what 'informal' is, and 'wear formal and informal all night' is one most my age(40) would find uncomfortable if held to strictly.

I don't go on vacations to be uncomfortable, and don't think many others do either.
(BigDave waits for the shells to start landing)

BigDave

Enchantment 10/2002, Rhapsody 4/2004.
Caribbean Princess, E Carib. 11/27/2004 http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=22AA22&cdt=2004;11;27;17;0;00&timezone=GMT-0500
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Valor, W. Carib. 2/6/2005, Radiance, E. Carib 2/13/2005 http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=22AA22&cdt=2005;2;6;17;0;00&timezone=GMT-0500

[BigDave]

Rev. Neal,

(I have not been on HAL yet this is totally based on reviews and feedback from people on the board, and observation of pricing patterns)

HAL can stay the way they are, but they'd have to keep fewer ships, and charge a lot more.

Since the competition would be charging less and giving a good if different experience they would loose even more passengers to them.

They are in a difficult space, they've enlarged their fleet, but they have a hard time filling them compared to other lines.

That’s why their price is dropping, and they are making changes to service, and how staff is paid.

Their current ‘street’ price, which is influenced by how hard it is to fill their ships, puts them close to Carnivals price point, and below RCI and Princess.

If you don't have the money coming in, you can't provide more expensive premium service.

This is a difficult time; they are trying to keep their current passengers happy while figuring out how not to antagonize new ones.

I’m sure they have a plan, maybe after getting the staterooms refreshed, and the staff used to the new system they’ll do more to shift the lines experience back to premium.
I’ll be interested in watching how it works out.

BigDave

Enchantment 10/2002, Rhapsody 4/2004.
Caribbean Princess, E Carib. 11/27/2004 http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=22AA22&cdt=2004;11;27;17;0;00&timezone=GMT-0500
HAL Oosterdam, E Carib. 1/2/2005 http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=22AA22&cdt=2005;1;2;17;0;00&timezone=GMT-0500
Valor, W. Carib. 2/6/2005, Radiance, E. Carib 2/13/2005 http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=22AA22&cdt=2005;2;6;17;0;00&timezone=GMT-0500

[camachinist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDave:
Frankly I am a 'warm' person, and don't feel comfortable wearing coats, and wouldn't consider wearing it the rest of the evening.

I wear a suit to formal dinners, but have never worn my sport coat and I've had it 10 years. (My wife insisted I get at least one, but it just isn't something folks my age wear)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same issues but have found a solution in the type of garments I buy. A light, summer weight, wool suit jacket is easy to pack, looks sharp and is tolerable in the Caribbean and absolutely heavenly in the northern lattitudes. Dressing this up with a tuxedo shirt, bow ties and suspenders makes in formal night acceptable, from my viewings of the pictures we've taken.

Otherwise, I wear a light linen sport jacket, which is very breathable, on "informal" nights.

Also, if entering the dining room and noticing it to be warm, I ask the maitre d' or our server if they could perhaps adjust the temperature slightly downward. I've become adept at finding AC vents and requesting a table change if possible.

Gotta be comfortable to enjoy all that great cruise cuisine http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pat

[Giorgi-one]

A few things I don't understand.

1) What ships are these people on who are warm in the dining room? I never wear short sleeve shirts at night on a cruise (next will be my 14th) because it is too cold. My wife always carries a wrap with her.

2) Why are so many people uncomfortable in a sport coat or a suit?

3) Do these people read the dress codes provided by every cruise line in their brochures and web sites?

[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is there some reason why every "main stream" cruise line must be just like every other line? Why can't we have a bunch of DIFFERENT lines that cater to the likes and dislikes of different demographics and groups? Why can't NCL, Princess, CCL, and RCCL each do things their own particular ways -- "freestyle, Personal Choice, etc" -- and Cunard, HAL, and others can do things their own particular ways: i.e, variations of the more "traditional" fare. That way, we can all have our cake and eat it too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Revneal - that makes the assumption that people chose lines based strictly on these things. Perhaps some people prefer the spaciousness of HAL ships, or the artwork on board, but don't like dressing up. What do they do. I wanted to cruise out of Norfolk to the Caribbean. I had a choice of HAL, or HAL. So I chose HAL. Consider all the choices that we make when choosing a cruise; the size of the ship, the itinerary, the departure port, price, dining room or freestyle, entertainment, etc. there could never be enough cruise lines/ships to meet everyone's taste. So you wind up with people choosing HAL for many reasons, but they still may not enjoy dressing up. Does that mean that they go somewhere else?

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[jhannah]

No, they can still sail HAL. Just eat in the Lido or your cabin and not the dining room when the evening's dress code doesn't appeal to you.

'Vegas Jim

[F5Loar]

That's the irony in this discussion. HAL provides free alternate dining even going out of their way putting tablecoths out on the Lido so those passengers that choose not to partake of the evening dress code restrictions can dine in their comfortable casuals on formal or informal nights enjoying the same food, yet HAL allows these same passengers into the dining room far from the dress code suggestions. We can call names, stereotypes,
or class of people all we want but the buck stops at the HAL dining room door. If they see fit to allow total ignorance of their own dress code there is nothing the long time Mariners can do about it. You would think people today would just know what is proper and what is not. I looked pretty hard and I didn't see not one Aloha shirt at the Reagan funeral on TV. And I bet not one of those people in attendance had to be told to wear a suit or dressy clothes. Dressing up on a cruise has always been the tradition just as it is on a formal state funeral or other black tie affair. I guess we can blame Disney for starting the new trend of "be yourself" when on a cruise vacation. But you know what, even Disney when they decided to go to the 7 day cruise added a formal night. They knew to keep some tradition in their cruise. This topic is about informal night and how it is misunderstood.
It is misunderstood by many. Too many in fact that it is now a majority that "miss the boat" when it comes to dressing properly for informal nights. I don't see the reason to have it anyway since it's no longer a special night in cruising. So HAL if you are reading this thread, drop the informal thing or start enforcing it. I'll be happy either way but please don't allow it to be an embarrsing joke like it is now.

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[c-cruise]

Yes I read and understand the dress code... I just choose to ignore HAL's uninforced defination of informal. I have been on 15 cruises and have never once been questioned for not wearing a jacket on informal nights. I certainly wouldn't think of not dressing appropriately on formal nights however and I do respect the formal dress for the entire evening.

Frankly, eating in the lido or in the cabin for dinner for lack of a sport coat on informal night is not an acceptable solution. They are ok for breakfast and lunch, but if I wanted to eat dinner in a buffet line I could do so back home.

If HAL is going to compete in the 7 day mainstream cruise market they are going to have to continue to change with the industry. Maybe the longer and more exotic itineraries will stay more formal, but the shorter 7 day caribbean itineraries are going to be more casual just based on the younger crowd they are trying to attract with the vista ships.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[F5Loar]

I've often wondered if people actually do eat on the Lido on formal nights and wonder why they would. I will go up to the Lido after eating first seating to see who it is that eats up there and when I see them in person I understand the why they are doing it. For some it is the dress codes, others it maybe they know they brought "unruly" children or babies on board, while the most like that "all you can get on your plate with no wait for 2nds" feature. They may have tried the main dining room only to find the small portions and the lack of not knowing you can ask for more went away hungry.

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[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They may have tried the main dining room only to find the small portions and the lack of not knowing you can ask for more went away hungry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Went away hungry on a cruise ship? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

[hotspur]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F5Loar:
I've often wondered if people actually do eat on the Lido on formal nights and wonder why they would. I will go up to the Lido after eating first seating to see who it is that eats up there and when I see them in person I understand the why they are doing it. For some it is the dress codes, others it maybe they know they brought "unruly" children or babies on board, while the most like that "all you can get on your plate with no wait for 2nds" feature. They may have tried the main dining room only to find the small portions and the lack of not knowing you can ask for more went away hungry.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We ate in the Lido the last night of our cruise because, quite simply, the food was better there. It was HOT, instead of lukewarm. It was cooked to order for you, so lamb chops came out medium rare, as requested, instead of dark brown and dried out throughout.

The freshly-tossed caesar salad in the Lido far surpassed all of the uninspired salads served in the dining room. You could choose your main course accompaniments in the Lido, so if you wanted a second vegetable instead of a starch you could ask and they would do it for you. You also could eat when YOU wanted to, not when THEY wanted you to.

Lastly, there was no silliness like the baked Alaska parade, accompanied by a cruise director bellowing a narrative at the top of her lungs. And they wanted people to wear tuxes for this? If "tradition" is having the cruise director playing cheerleader in the dining room on what is supposed to be an elegant "formal" night, you can have tradition, folks. Where's Renaissance, where the PA system was blessedly silent from beginning to end?

[FlorenceItaly]

Hotspur - I am interested in knowing more about the Lido dining on the Maasdam. Is it buffet, or do you order off menu? Thanks so much.

By the way, have been enjoying your posts this week http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Marie

HAL - MAASDAM - June 2004/Canada/New England
RCI - Mariner of the Seas,
Sept 2004(CC Group Cruise)
RCI - Rhapsody of the Seas
October 2004


RCI Majesty of the Seas - Spring Break, March 2005
Celebrity Mercury, April 2005
Caribbean Princess, Sept 2005
(CC Group Cruise)

[F5Loar]

Ah! no Baked Alaska parade but do you get to eat Baked Alaska on the Lido? I've heard items like escargo, lobster tails are not served at dinner time on the Lido. Is this true or myth?
While many things like soups,salads,vegs, are the same they don't have all the things from the menu. I will admit the salads were quite whimpy in size and taste on the Maasdam. I was wondering if my waiter had put me a diet when I saw the portion of the salads. It use to be tradition that on the last night of the cruise the Lido was full of those choosing to excerise
the "No tip required" policy. I guess the new "all tips created equal and added to your bill for convience" policy stopped that last night rush on the Lido.

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[camachinist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giorgi-one:
A few things I don't understand.

1) What ships are these people on who are warm in the dining room? I never wear short sleeve shirts at night on a cruise (next will be my 14th) because it is too cold. My wife always carries a wrap with her.

2) Why are so many people uncomfortable in a sport coat or a suit?

3) Do these people read the dress codes provided by every cruise line in their brochures and web sites?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. I've only been on 3 cruises, first on Norway (Caribbean), second on HAL (Alaska) and third on Princess (transat); of the three, Princess was the most comfortable (in the dining rooms and public spaces) for me. You must understand that everyone is different when it comes to temperature. I can work outside in freezing weather in short sleeves (actually I do) but hot weather or heavy clothing in warm climates (even in places with normal AC) makes me sweat. I'm assuming BigDave is similar. It's just how we're made, and generally has nothing to do with size.

2. Psychologically, likely relates to the above. We tend to avoid unpleasant things. I was uncomfortable for years before finally hooking up with a couple of brands of dress clothes which work for me. Now I look forward to putting on a suit/sport coat, even in warmer weather. Just did, last weekend, for a wedding. Hardly broke a sweat http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, except on the dance floor.

3. Yes, I do and imagine others do as well. For myself, a dress code perusal is usually not necessary as I've traveled/entertained enough to have a sense of what's appropriate. I wear engineer-style coveralls (usually grease/machine oil covered) every day so I look forward to looking markedly different, no matter the excuse http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Whether others form an opinion of me by my level of dress, I know not. I only can say that I don't judge others by their clothes. Occasionally, by body odor http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pat

[RevNeal]

Dear Big Dave,

Welcome to the HAL board! It's always great to see new faces around here! Thank you for posting your views on the subject. Allow me a few remarks:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I wear a suit to formal dinners, but have never worn my sport coat and I've had it 10 years. (My wife insisted I get at least one, but it just isn't something folks my age wear)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good for your wife! In general, I have found sports coats helpful for times when I want a slightly different look than the all-grey or all-black look of a suit. Sundays in the summer, when I prefer to not wear a coat around the office, Summer Musicals and Summer weddings or funerals (that I'm not officiating at as the minister), are all good times for wearing a very nice pair of dress slacks and a (black or dark grey) sports jacket.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...instead I find the old HAL standard of what 'informal' is, and 'wear formal and informal all night' is one most my age(40) would find uncomfortable if held to strictly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I certainly can understand the desire to change out of formal wear after dinner (especially if the clothing has gotten a bit too tight!), I am a guy in his 40s who prefers to abide by the code and remain "properly" dressed throughout the entire evening. I suppose I'm not among the "most" of our age who feel this way. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't go on vacations to be uncomfortable, and don't think many others do either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you ... I certainly don't go on vacations to be uncomfortable. It happens, sometimes, that I am uncomfortable on vacation, but I don't seek it out on purpose. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif What some people find uncomfortable, and what others find comfortable, is often different. We're not all the same. Neither are cruise lines.

Have a blast on the Oosterdam in Jan 05!

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 1) What ships are these people on who are warm in the dining room? I never wear short sleeve shirts at night on a cruise (next will be my 14th) because it is too cold. My wife always carries a wrap with her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Nieuw Amsterdam, the Rotterdam V, the Maasdam, the Statendam, and the Volendam ... all were too hot for me in the dining room and, at times, elsewhere aboard. I understand that some people are too cold, but I'm almost always too hot. Some people are just cold natured; for instance, I am comfortable in 50 degrees and short sleeves (I often wore short sleeve-shirts and carried a light-weight jacket for Alaska, and was only really cold the day we were in Glacier Bay ... and, then, only when the clouds blocked the sun). As for heat ... I sweat in the shade when the temps are anywhere close to 72 degrees or higher. My brother is the same way, and so is my Dad, while my mother and Chris are freezing at 80 degrees.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2) Why are so many people uncomfortable in a sport coat or a suit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure, but some people are. My brother, for one, whines and complains anytime he has to wear a sports jacket for anything. He says it feels like a "straight jacket."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3) Do these people read the dress codes provided by every cruise line in their brochures and web sites? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In some cases, no. It still manages to amaze me, but I've actually met people on HAL cruises who have sworn up and down that there was NO dress code published in any of the materials that they were sent with their travel documents. I challenged one such person to bring his travel documentation to dinner the next night, and he did. Slapping the pouch down in front of me, he said: "I bet you that you can't find a dress code in there!" So, I did. I opened the pouch, took out the "Know Before You Go" booklet, turned right to the page containing the code, and then set it before him. As it turned out, he hadn't bothered to actually read the booklet ... he had just glanced at it for a second and set it aside. But it WAS there. (I won the bet -- an after dinner round of brandy in the Explorer's Lounge.) http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In other cases, some people just refuse to abide by the dress code because they are stubborn, rebellious know-it-alls who refuse to be told what to do, when to do it, or how. Still others are not nasty about it, they're just stubborn and want to do things their own way without regard for what others (including their hosts) state is acceptable.

I'm sure there are other reasons for some people not abiding by the code ... none of the above should be taken, personally, by anybody here.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
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Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[RevNeal]

Marc,

As you well know, one makes compromises in life all the time ... the same is true regarding cruise lines. If I want to take a cruise that only NCL offers, do I whine and complain and refuse to do things NCL's way? Do I demand that NCL do things HAL's way??? Do I grit my teeth and say: "there should be an informal night on the 4th night of the cruise!!!!! GRRRR" and, therefore, dress as if I were on HAL on informal nights?? NO ... I go on NCL, conform to their standards, partake of their FreeStyle Cruising, and have a BLAST! But I don't whine and complain and judge NCL as being a horrible product because they don't do things as HAL does them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...that makes the assumption that people chose lines based strictly on these things. Perhaps some people prefer the spaciousness of HAL ships, or the artwork on board, but don't like dressing up. What do they do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they REALLY want to enjoy the larger cabins and the artwork on HAL then they should be willing to compromise their likes and dislikes regarding dressing up and abide by the HAL dress code. If they're not willing to make that kind of a compromise, then they don't REALLY want to enjoy the larger cabins or the artwork on HAL; that, or they're overgrown children who never grew up enough to realize that when in Rome one shoots Roman Candles.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wanted to cruise out of Norfolk to the Caribbean. I had a choice of HAL, or HAL. So I chose HAL.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, in choosing HAL, you chose the whole package ... not just the port of departure, but everything that came with HAL.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Consider all the choices that we make when choosing a cruise; the size of the ship, the itinerary, the departure port, price, dining room or freestyle, entertainment, etc. there could never be enough cruise lines/ships to meet everyone's taste. So you wind up with people choosing HAL for many reasons, but they still may not enjoy dressing up. Does that mean that they go somewhere else?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they are unwilling compromise and go along with the dress code, I think they SHOULD go somewhere else. I know that attitude has been judged by some as being elitist, but in my opinion it is simply both ADULT and REASONABLE. People have CHOICES in life ... and those CHOICES bring with them CONSEQUENCES. In the case of choosing HAL, it means choosing the WHOLE HAL experience. One can't have the HAL cabin but not the HAL ship or the HAL itinerary. If they're not willing to compromise their likes and dislikes in order to take a HAL cruise, then perhaps they shouldn't be taking that HAL cruise. Anything else is just self-centered childishness. Sorry ... but that's how I see it.

In short ... if someone decides to take a HAL cruise, but doesn't like dressing up, they should either compromise and dress up, or they shouldn't go. The alternative is irresponsible immaturity.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
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[jhannah]

Well put, Greg. I wholeheartedly agree.

'Vegas Jim

[FlorenceItaly]

Dh and I are cruising together in October. I seriously considered the Zuiderdam for this cruise, however, the main reason I didn't ultimately book it is because dh does not like dress code restrictions. He prefers to dress more casually on vacation. With RCI, even if we eat in the Lido in the evening, shorts are permitted.

Marie

HAL - MAASDAM - June 2004/Canada/New England
RCI - Mariner of the Seas,
Sept 2004(CC Group Cruise)
RCI - Rhapsody of the Seas
October 2004


RCI Majesty of the Seas - Spring Break, March 2005
Celebrity Mercury, April 2005
Caribbean Princess, Sept 2005
(CC Group Cruise)

[melzateach]

We leave Saturday on our first cruise. We have read our travel documents about a million and one half times! For the most part, we are casual people, with two kids and a busy life. However, we are REALLY looking forward to the formal nights and informal nights, which were plainly spelled out in our documentation. Both my husband and our 11 year old son will be in tuxedos on our formal nights, blazers and ties for informal night, and khakis and button downs for casual nights. Frankly, we aren't concerned how others have interpretted the dress code, we want to experience cruising as it was intended - and that, for us means tuxedos, sport coats and trousers (no jeans). Others may do what they want, but we look forward to the "experience". Besides, tuxedos purchased from EBAY made the outfitting affordable and easy.

Off to Alaska on Saturday! Thanks for all the postings, we have learned SO much from you all.

[RevNeal]

melzateach,

Have a BLAST on your cruise! I wish I were going with you!

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[F5Loar]

Exalthim: You do realize the Zuiderdam is the most relaxed in not enforcing dress codes ship that HAL has. Why would you not go for that reason? If ever there was a HAL ship you can do it your way, the Zuiderdam is it. I saw shorts on formal nights two tables from me.
They could care less what you wear on any night. And as others mentioned the Lido serves up some fine cusine too. You are really missing out on a great cruise if you miss the Zuiderdam. But if you do go RCL beware of the Ranch Steak.

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[ryansmemom]

Dear Greg,

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifI applaud you and everything you said about compromise. I also agree with everything you said. I was considering answering that question, however, it had been asked of you and I did not want to be presumtious.

This is not an issue of traditionalism. It is just respectfulness (including respect for oneself, ones host and one's fellow travelers), responsiblity (literally ability to respond to others rather than react),maturity, and common sense. We all need to compromise. We all need to adhere to certain standards or rules, or suffer the consequences. Unfortunatly, many people do not learn that as children when the consequences are relatively small.

Unfortunatly, our society, has many people who have a sense of entitlement and an "I can do what ever I want to do" attitude also known as "the ugly American" syndrome. It's not very attractive. Fortunatly, most of us do not have that attitude. Although some seem to get carried away with rhetoric on an message board, those I have acutally met in person have always been very generous, caring, open, respectful and responsible.

So, let's all just enjoy each other. I think if we all met face to face we would find that we all agree about a lot more than we disagree about. Afterall, we all love to cruise.

Linda

Thanks for listening

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orcrone:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is there some reason why every "main stream" cruise line must be just like every other line? Why can't we have a bunch of DIFFERENT lines that cater to the likes and dislikes of different demographics and groups? Why can't NCL, Princess, CCL, and RCCL each do things their own particular ways -- "freestyle, Personal Choice, etc" -- and Cunard, HAL, and others can do things their own particular ways: i.e, variations of the more "traditional" fare. That way, we can all have our cake and eat it too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Revneal - that makes the assumption that people chose lines based strictly on these things. Perhaps some people prefer the spaciousness of HAL ships, or the artwork on board, but don't like dressing up. What do they do. I wanted to cruise out of Norfolk to the Caribbean. I had a choice of HAL, or HAL. So I chose HAL. Consider all the choices that we make when choosing a cruise; the size of the ship, the itinerary, the departure port, price, dining room or freestyle, entertainment, etc. there could never be enough cruise lines/ships to meet everyone's taste. So you wind up with people choosing HAL for many reasons, but they still may not enjoy dressing up. Does that mean that they go somewhere else?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Orcrone, well said. I have mentioned numerous times no cruise line is perfect - each does something well and not so well. Many may choose HAL for certain reasons bu not for the dress.

Me - as I mentioned, I now shop for a cruise by price and itenary as no one line is perfect.

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhannah:
Well, if you don't like dressing up, then don't take a cruise. It's different than being at home and going to work, so don't compare it with that. While many may think that dressing for dinner is anachronistic, it's still very much a part of cruising tradition. If a cruise line wishes to preserve that, so be it. If someone doesn't want to observe it, then go where you'll be more comfortable.

'Vegas Jim
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I have typically followed the cruise lines rules in the past as to dress, but I am getting tired of seeing comments like this that it has convinced me that when I sail late July, to dress comfortable (within reason - like GASP, no jacket and tie on informal nite) as I please and enjoy myself even if I become a thorn in people's sides - cause quite frankly, after reading comments which basically say if you don't like it, stay home tells me I shouldn't care who I upset.

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhannah:
No, they can still sail HAL. Just eat in the Lido or your cabin and not the dining room when the evening's dress code doesn't appeal to you.

'Vegas Jim
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I will not be shunned to the Lido or my room either. Thanks for helping to convince me to shed my coat on informal night !!! Main Dining Room here I come

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Although some seem to get carried away with rhetoric on an message board, those I have acutally met in person have always been very generous, caring, open, respectful and responsible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree. Absolutely RIGHT. I would venture to suggest that even those of us who disagree on this issue would find that the others are wonderful people and a joy with which to cruise. That has been my experience in the past, and I don't see any reason to think it would change in the future.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, let's all just enjoy each other. I think if we all met face to face we would find that we all agree about a lot more than we disagree about. Afterall, we all love to cruise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BRAVA! And Amen!

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
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[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c-cruise:
Yes I read and understand the dress code... I just choose to ignore HAL's uninforced defination of informal. I have been on 15 cruises and have never once been questioned for not wearing a jacket on informal nights. I certainly wouldn't think of not dressing appropriately on formal nights however and I do respect the formal dress for the entire evening.

Frankly, eating in the lido or in the cabin for dinner for lack of a sport coat on informal night is not an acceptable solution. They are ok for breakfast and lunch, but if I wanted to eat dinner in a buffet line I could do so back home.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN to that !!!

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ... dress comfortable (within reason - like GASP, no jacket and tie on informal nite) ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A reminder and a question:

Reminder: Ties are optional ... that means you're perfectly free to forego it on informal nights, if you prefer.

Question: If you're not going to don a jacket on informal night, what then will be your distinction between casual night and informal night? I'm neither judging nor evaluating ... just curious.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
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[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ... dress comfortable (within reason - like GASP, no jacket and tie on informal nite) ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A reminder and a question:

Reminder: Ties are optional ... that means you're perfectly free to forego it on informal nights, if you prefer.

Question: If you're not going to don a jacket on informal night, what then will be your distinction between casual night and informal night? I'm neither judging nor evaluating ... just curious.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RevNeal - Thanks for the tie clarification for informal night. I guess I will just be a rebel only by forgoing my jacket then http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As to what will the distinction be between informal and casual, I guess their really won't be any. I will wear nice docker type pants and a golf type or short sleeve button down shirt both nights.

I guess at this point I really don't see the purpose of informal night. have Formal night and have casual nights. Why the third in between category?

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess at this point I really don't see the purpose of informal night. have Formal night and have casual nights. Why the third in between category? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my opinion, the purpose of Informal Nights is to add additional evenings which are more dressy than the Casual Nights, but less-dressy than Formal Nights. It has the effect of allowing those of us who want to dress up more often to get to do a bit of that on the Informal Nights, while not pushing others to have to dress up more frequently than they would like. This is, of course, based upon the assumption that the Informal Night minimal code is not an imposition (i.e., the framers of the code consider a jacket, with tie being optional, as NOT being in any way a hardship). Clearly, you and some others disagree and feel that it's asking too much. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Greg+
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Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[c-cruise]

I don't make any distinction between casual and informal. A nice pair of Khaki pants and a button down or polo shirt seems perfectly acceptable to me for either one. Several cruise lines no longer make this distinction either and have ditched informal nights.

Perhaps it is a demographics thing. I am certainly not the typical HAL customer. I am 28 and have cruised 15 times on 4 lines. To me putting on a sports coat for dinner is something that (not to be disrespectful and please don't be offended) "old people" do.

I just don't see the point of dragging a coat I don't like and never wear 3000 miles accross the country. I would then put it on for about 5 minutes for the walk to the dining room and then hang it from the back of my chair. After diner I would procede to throw it back in the room until the next informal night. What's the point in that.

Instead I just pass on the coat and wear what is comfortable to me. I fail to see how wearing nice khaki pants and a button down shirt can be being disrespectful to anybody. Afterall, it's not like we are all trying to show up at the dining room in our flip flops and tank tops.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't make any distinction between casual and informal. A nice pair of Khaki pants and a button down or polo shirt seems perfectly acceptable to me for either one. Several cruise lines no longer make this distinction either and have ditched informal nights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While such may seem perfectly acceptable to you, and while it is true that several other cruise lines no longer observe Informal Nights as opposed to Formal and Casual Nights, it is nevertheless true that the Holland America Line still maintains Informal Nights on their cruises and has published a clear Dress Code for those nights. What you consider perfectly acceptable for wear on Informal Night simply doesn't meet the standard outlined in that code. I'm sorry if that makes you or anyone else angry ... but that's a fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps it is a demographics thing. I am certainly not the typical HAL customer. I am 28 and have cruised 15 times on 4 lines. To me putting on a sports coat for dinner is something that (not to be disrespectful and please don't be offended) "old people" do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, sonny, I'll just have to pick up my cane and dotter my way down to the Rotterdam Dining Room, dragging my ancient 40-something year-old bones behind me. WHAT, pray-tell, makes putting on a jacket "something that old people do"??? And, please note, it is NOT JUST FOR DINNER but for the ENTIRE evening. It's part of the atmosphere that isn't intended to be Formal, but also isn't intended to be Casual.

Greg+
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Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
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[This message was edited by revneal on 06-16-04 at 03:51 AM.]

[FlorenceItaly]

F5Loar - We have airfare...it's a done deal http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But, Zuiderdam IS on my list of "somedays". http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Marie

HAL - MAASDAM - June 2004/Canada/New England
RCI - Mariner of the Seas,
Sept 2004(CC Group Cruise)
RCI - Rhapsody of the Seas
October 2004


RCI Majesty of the Seas - Spring Break, March 2005
Celebrity Mercury, April 2005
Caribbean Princess, Sept 2005
(CC Group Cruise)

[lknick]

Sooner or later on every thread relating to attire, age comes up. The message is I'm young, I'm hip and you're a doofus.

Observation does not support this. Inappropriate dress is not age specific.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[F5Loar]

unfortunatly it is the 80+ senior statesmen showing up in their yellow caragon sweaters on informal nights(and sometimes formal nights with their bolo ties!).
No age hasn't a thing to do with it. HAL has lowered the dress code to pacify the rebels and the rebels always go one step below knowingly abusing the dress codes. When you make tux optional, sport coat no tie okay you are close to saying "just forget it and wear what you want" code. I'm still back to it's not these people's fault. If HAL enforces their codes at the door and turns away these "rebels" one time, they will either go back and change, or never cruise HAL again. Either way HAL wins so why not enforce it? Do you have to be told to put on a swimsuit when going in the pool on the ship? When scuba diving can you go casual? Would you wear your tux on a bus tour? Can we get this thread to page 4 before Walt will close it?

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[c-cruise]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The message is I'm young, I'm hip and you're a doofus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, I don't remember calling anybody a "doofus". I was just trying to explain where I am coming from on this issue. And I must disagree with your statement that inappropriate dress is not age specific. What people wear is (thank god) extremely age specific.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>it is nevertheless true that the Holland America Line still maintains Informal Nights on their cruises and has published a clear Dress Code for those nights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bottom line is that they can write whatever policy they want, but they don't enforce it and people will continue to wear whatever they see fit. I purposely sail the Vista class ships because I feel those ships are targeted at a younger crowd with a more relaxed dress code.

I am sailing on HAL again in Dec. and will not be bringing a coat for those silly informal nights. If people choose to be offended or find it disrepsectful well.... that is frankly their problem. They only have to look at my "unsightly" dress shirts for 7 days and then their horrible cruise dining ordeal will be over....

I am convinced that some people would be perfectly happy if we were all still wearing our powdered wigs, waist coats, silk stalkings and breeches to dinner. Just please remember to check you sword at the door however because I would be offended if you brought that into the dining room.

Times change. Lighten up, it's just a vacation after all.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> F5Loar said:
If HAL enforces their codes at the door and turns away these "rebels" one time, they will either go back and change, or never cruise HAL again. Either way HAL wins so why not enforce it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How does HAL win? Is HAL in the business of being the dress police? They're in the business to make money, plain and simple. It is not in their best interest for people to not sail with them anymore, unless that brings even more people back to HAL.

People on this board get very upset by people not following the dress code. I tend to think that the vast majority of cruisers, including the large percentage that never heard of cruise critic, don't really care what others wear, and even if they do, they're not going to switch cruiselines because of the non-enforcement of the dress code. Have you? So how is it in HAL's best interest to enforce the code and cause some people to go somewhere else?

Before I get flamed for being a slob, please note that I've made no comment on how I plan on dressing. The purpose of my post is to point out that HAL wants to put the maximum possible number of people on each ship.

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[ekerr19]

Well said Marc!

This topic has been beaten to death - but, I didn't understand what F5 meant by his post either... you hit the nail right on the head.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[texkat]

I do have some thoughts regarding HAL's enforcement of the dress codes...

It's an ugly, no-win job for them. And it could become a costly and FULL-TIME job, given the absolute and total lack of respect for the dress code demonstrated by many passengers.

Last week, I witnessed several men who were turned away from the dining room during lunch and an afternoon dessert event while wearing tank tops. Their hairy chests and armpits were exposed, and they had obviously just thrown the tank tops on over their swim trunks and come down from the pool. Yet I heard two of them grousing and complaining as they stomped off like cross two year olds to get acquire more suitable clothing. A third tank-top wearer, when told this was not acceptable attire, simply took a tshirt his wife had in her beach bag and squeezed it on over his tank top- it was a lovely sight- a sweaty man in a much too tight t-shirt entering the formal dining room. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I also noticed a couple of men enter the Lido from the pool, barefoot, shirtless and dripping. A staff member directed them back outside, and politely told them that shirts and shoes were required in the Lido. So what did the "gentlemen" do? They walked outside, and immediately reentered the Lido through another door.

The fact thay they even need to enforce these absolute minimums in decent dress is a bit depressing. And as long as folks are cruising with an "I don't care what the dress code is, and I don't care what anyone else thinks" attitude, enforcing the actual dress code is a hopelessly Sysiphean task.

In my opinion, dressing appropriately is not what "old people" do. It's what grown ups do.

Zuiderdam, June 5
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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I purposely sail the Vista class ships because I feel those ships are targeted at a younger crowd with a more relaxed dress code.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good for you. I do tend to believe that the Zuiderdam, especially, is geared more to the younger crowd. That doesn't necessarily mean that this crowd will be dressing down, only that they're not versed in traditions and are willing to do things differently. In my opinion, this is a positive. It's also part of the reason why I once suggested a different dress policy for the Vista ships than for the more traditional S and R class ships.

I suppose what I objected to is your calling Informal Night "silly," and your insulting charge that wearing a jacket to dinner is something that just old people do. I know you didn't mean to offend, but you certainly managed to do it quite well.

I enjoy Informal Nights; they're most certainly NOT silly to me. Having them gives those of us who enjoy Formal Nights yet another night to dress up a bit. I mean ... dressing in a suit and tie looks somewhat out of place on Casual Night, but on Informal Night I can dress that way and not get stares -- well, not many ... I was once accosted by an old "gentleman" who told me I was overdressed on Informal Night.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I tend to think that the vast majority of cruisers, including the large percentage that never heard of cruise critic, don't really care what others wear,...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Most don't care about what OTHERS are wearing, they're afraid of looking silly, or out of place, or under-dressed, or over-dressed, compared to other people. My mother is that way. She is constantly asking "Will I look ok in this?" or "Do you think this will look good on Informal Night?" Her concern is about not being embarrassed by not being dressed "as others are." That is part of the reason why people who flaunt the Dress Codes, even on Formal Night, are a distress to people like my 70+ year old mother. Mom doesn't want to be out of step, regardless of what that step is. If she goes on a ship where people are not dressing up, she doesn't want others to think she's a snob because she brought -- and has to wear (because she doesn't have anything else with her) -- a lot of formal outfits. As for me, I say: "Who cares WHAT they think? Not I. I'm gonna abide by the code, and if that means that I'm the ONLY male passenger onboard wearing a coat on Informal Night ... well, so be it. I'm dressed properly. They're not."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...and even if they do, they're not going to switch cruiselines because of the non-enforcement of the dress code.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But will the others switch cruise lines if HAL enforces the dress code? And, before you answer, see the above post regarding HAL enforcement the wearing shirts in the Lido on (gasp) the Zuiderdam. It's history, but in 2002 I saw people turned away from the main dining room on the Statendam because they were not properly dressed. What if one of our friends, here, were to be turned away from the dining room on informal night because they didn't have a jacket? Might they come back and, with must anger, write trash posts against HAL because HAL had the gall to uphold their dress code? Will they blame us for their being embarrassed and barred from the dining room on informal night? I doubt it will happen, but it COULD.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[Somewhere]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bottom line is that they can write whatever policy they want, but they don't enforce it... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What a tragic statement.

Since in your post you denied saying what you inferred, just for me explain this.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What people wear is (thank god) extremely age specific. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> it's just a vacation after all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whose vacation...only your vacation.

Have you now finished baiting people?

[F5Loar]

It could happen and does happen on seveal other lines. I know Celebrity Galaxy got strict recently after being lax for many years.
It's a win situation for HAL to turn them down because they either please the majority who do adhere to the rules or they loose a few who will not sail HAL again. Keep in mind turning them away at the DR does not mean they starve that night. They have a choice where to eat. And the choice to eat in the main DR under the dress code is a choice they make. I have no pitty on anyone who can't follow a simple dress code on a cruise especially since HAL lowered it's own code to please such persons.
And if they don't come back they are not the kind of people you want a cruise to begin with so HAL wins either way. I know if I was turned away it would only happen once. And right what are these few people going to say as a result of being turned away? Vacation or not they were in the wrong and they knew it before they boarded. It's not like they sprung this on them. Don't you just love crusing and CC?

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Til we sail on the Mariner of The Seas RCL
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[jgooden1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In my opinion, dressing appropriately is not what "old people" do. It's what grown ups do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said! I'm a 34 year old grown-up who appreciates the fact that there are still places where people care about dressing up. So many seem to feel they are being “put out” if they have to get dressed up for anything anymore...work, church, travel. And I know people will say they are on vacation but you're not at the beach for goodness sake, so wear a tie!

Someone else, I believe it was Revneal, mentioned that there are different cruises for different kinds of people and someone wrote back saying basically that they are all going to be the same and to compete HAL should relax the dress code. Well, I chose HAL because I wanted a more refined atmosphere and that means a tie and dresses. If I wanted muscle shirts and short shorts I would have cruised another line. I am thankful I had that choice and not some homogeneous mix of, IMO, the lowest common denominator!

[lknick]

The one consistent thing about Cruise Critics is that is consistently silly. Everytime attire comes up, two camps immediately form.

One camp say "I am an individual and I will not follow anyone's guidelines. Let them get brown shirt thugs to make me and then I'll go elsewhere. It's nobody's business how I dress."

The other camp says "But I care. Have a little consideration for others wishes. It won't kill you to follow the herd from time to time."

Then, there is always the offshoot of "snob vs slob," as in this thread someone even branded it 'hate speech'. [Oh, Officer Krumpkie]

No one is ever convinced. No one ever changes their going-in position. And sooner or later, the personal attacks begin.

It is one thing to answer a question on expected dress. What always puzzles me is the "yea-but" crowd always appears. Who really cares? On the Carnival board they simply say 'get a life'.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[c-cruise]

I have really enjoyed reading everyones opinion on this issue without anybody getting too terribly offended or offensive. I certainly have a much better understanding of where people on different sides of this issue are comming from. That doesn't mean I have changed my opinion (or the way I am going to dress), but I am now certainly know more than I ever wanted to about this issue.

I am certianly not in the "rebel" or the "slob" category, I just don't like blazers. Is that so terribly bad? If HAL decides to start enforcing their dress code more strictly then so be it, but something tells me they won't. They didn't just build the larger vista ships so that they could start turning away customers over a jacket. Now more than ever they are discounting trying to fill up all those extra berths. This is especially true in the Caribbean where they have to compete with so many other large mass market ships on the typical 7 day itineraries. If anything HAL has become cheaper to cruise than many other lines (there is a currently a post ongoing on this topic). I frankly choose HAL for my next cruise because it was cheaper for the same level accomodations (mini-suite) than the Princess cruise (no informal nights) that I was considering the same week. I have cruised HAL many times in the past and have always enjoyed myself and have never once been questioned about not wearing a jacket for informal nights.

I am really not trying to upset anybody or "bait" anybody like some other poster claimed. This issue just interests me and I am trying to see where diffent folks are comming from. Obviously some people are quite passionate (and colorful) about this issue.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[c-cruise]

Somewhere,

I have no idea what your post means, but I will try to answer your question.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Since in your post you denied saying what you inferred, just for me explain this.
quote:
What people wear is (thank god) extremely age specific.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take a look at the cover of a fashion magazine. Picture your grandmother wearing that and then tell me that clothing isn't age specific.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c-cruise:
I don't make any distinction between casual and informal. A nice pair of Khaki pants and a button down or polo shirt seems perfectly acceptable to me for either one. Several cruise lines no longer make this distinction either and have ditched informal nights.

Perhaps it is a demographics thing. I am certainly not the typical HAL customer. I am 28 and have cruised 15 times on 4 lines. To me putting on a sports coat for dinner is something that (not to be disrespectful and please don't be offended) "old people" do.

I just don't see the point of dragging a coat I don't like and never wear 3000 miles accross the country. I would then put it on for about 5 minutes for the walk to the dining room and then hang it from the back of my chair. After diner I would procede to throw it back in the room until the next informal night. What's the point in that.

Instead I just pass on the coat and wear what is comfortable to me. I fail to see how wearing nice khaki pants and a button down shirt can be being disrespectful to anybody. Afterall, it's not like we are all trying to show up at the dining room in our flip flops and tank tops.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with c-cruise except for the age factor. I do think age enters into it a little, but is not the main reason. Its just different lifestyles, preferences, customs, etc

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orcrone:
[QUOTE] F5Loar said:
If HAL enforces their codes at the door and turns away these "rebels" one time, they will either go back and change, or never cruise HAL again. Either way HAL wins so why not enforce it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How does HAL win? Is HAL in the business of being the dress police? They're in the business to make money, plain and simple. It is not in their best interest for people to not sail with them anymore, unless that brings even more people back to HAL.

People on this board get very upset by people not following the dress code. I tend to think that the vast majority of cruisers, including the large percentage that never heard of cruise critic, don't really care what others wear, and even if they do, they're not going to switch cruiselines because of the non-enforcement of the dress code. Have you? So how is it in HAL's best interest to enforce the code and cause some people to go somewhere else?

Before I get flamed for being a slob, please note that I've made no comment on how I plan on dressing. The purpose of my post is to point out that HAL wants to put the maximum possible number of people on each ship.

QUOTE]

Agreed Orcrone. The majority of passengers probably care less what others wear. Its just a sensitive issue on this board. HAL is better off IMO not upsetting its passengers by turning people away. HAL is in the business of sales - they need to give the buying public what they want - and obviously by the actions of people on cruises, they want relaxed dress

[Somewhere]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Take a look at the cover of a fashion magazine. Picture your grandmother wearing that and then tell me that clothing isn't age specific. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There's a difference between fashion and style. Some have it, some don't.

But you won't get this.

[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> c-cruise said:
Take a look at the cover of a fashion magazine. Picture your grandmother wearing that and then tell me that clothing isn't age specific.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My grandmother in a skin tight dress, cut very low with a long slit up the side. Now that's a visual I didn't need!!! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My grandmother in a skin tight dress, cut very low with a long slit up the side. Now that's a visual I didn't need!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps not when she was 90 ... but how about when she was 19? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My grandmother was a flapper back in the 1920s ... very pretty.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[Giorgi-one]

I agree with those who say that following dress codes and feeling good about being dressed up is not an age thing.

IT IS A MATTER OF CLASS, MATURITY AND RESPECT AND PEOPLE OF ANY AGE (OR INCOME LEVEL) CAN BE LOW CLASS, IMMATURE AND DISRESPECTFUL!

I really don't care how anyone feels about dresss codes. The point is that the cruise lines have dress codes, and if you don't like them, find another vacation. The argument that they are not enforced by "clothes police" is childish, low class and immature.

[karpowij]

The last thing I want to do on vacation is wear a jacket and tie. It's fine for those that do enjoy it but you have to accept that some people have to wear a tie and/or a jacket at work and take a cruise to relax. To each his own.

[Orcrone]

Giorgi-one,

No matter what is written by others, one side of this very polarizing issue is not going to be convinced by the other side. However, I have to take exception since I am the one who used the term "dress police" (closest term in this thread to "clothes police").

If you'll notice the context of my comment it was in response to another poster commenting that if "HAL enforced the dress code it would cause other passengers to either dress appropriately or find another cruise line. Either way HAL wins". My comment was that HAL does not win if people don't sail with them.

No where in my response have I ever stated that I do not follow the dress code of any event in which I participate. However, due to you taking my post out of context I am now childish, low class and immature.

Some people can express their views in this matter and others without denegrating others. Revneal immediately comes to mind. How, with your obviously no knowledge of me can you possibly make that conclusion?

I really wish that people could learn that they can have differences of opinions and still respect each other.

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[Stevesan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The last thing I want to do on vacation is wear a jacket and tie. It's fine for those that do enjoy it but you have to accept that some people have to wear a tie and/or a jacket at work and take a cruise to relax. To each his own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. That's why there are different cruise lines. Enjoy NCL!

1957-USS General A.E. Anderson, Tokyo to San Francisco; 1999-Norwegian Sea, W. Carib; 1999-RVI, Europe; 2000-Mercury, W. Carib; 2000-Volendam, S. Carib; 2001-Viking Star, Danube River; 2001-Veendam, E. Carib; 2002 B2B- Veendam, Alaska; 2003 B2B-Zuiderdam, W/E Carib; Mar 2004-Maasdam, E Carib; 26 Nov 2005 Veendam, S Carib

[digby]

"and has published a clear Dress Code for those nights."

The dress 'code' says plainly it is a SUGGESTION, not a mandate.

[Orcrone]

Can we stop this merry-go-round. I'm getting dizzy. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The dress 'code' says plainly it is a SUGGESTION, not a mandate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Digby is correct: men are certainly welcome to dress more formally on informal night than just a jacket. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif To quote the code:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "... jackets (tie optional) for men are standard."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note the code's use of the term: "standard," meaning -- essentially -- "this is what is usually worn by men." It doesn't mean that one can't wear more (i.e., a tie is fine too); wearing less, however, would contravene the meaning of informal night by intruding on the casual night dress code. For informal night to have any meaning and distinction within the code itself, it must be different from casual night; the "jacket (tie optional)" language provides just such a distinction. Wearing at least what one wears on casual night, PLUS a jacket, is the sufficient "standard" for informal night. MORE may be worn (suit and tie, for instance), but less would not be in keeping with the spirit and meaning of the wording and intention of the code.

It is also wrong to assert that the code is just a collection of suggestions. Yes, the word is used:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Each night a daily program will be delivered to your stateroom announcing the suggested dress for the following evening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but this is actually a formal, polite way of articulating that which is expected. I can remember my father saying, "I suggest you clean your room before I get home." That was an order, not a "suggestion," regardless of how my Dad phrased it. He was simply being formally polite. In my opinion, HAL's dress code uses the term "suggestion" in much the same way. This is why, on some HAL ships (like the Statendam), men have been sent back to their cabins for coats and ties on recent formal nights. Although the word "suggestion" is used, less than a coat and a tie are NOT welcome ... just as jeans, shorts, and t-shirts "are not allowed in the dining room, Lido restaurant, or public areas during the evening hours." (emphasis added)

Within the body of the code for formal evening, it states:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Although business suits or tuxedos are suggested attire for formal evenings, they are certainly not required. You are welcome to wear a jacket and tie on formal nights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note what it does NOT say. Nowhere does the code say that LESS than a jacket and a tie are welcome on formal nights. Similarly, less than the standard of a jacket is not welcome on informal nights. The minimal difference between formal and informal night, then, is the requirement of a tie on formal nights. Likewise, the minimal difference between informal and casual night is the requirement of a jacket.

If one wants to ignore the dress code, that is of course an adult's prerogative. Consequences, like those reported from the Statendam, might result ... but, as the saying goes, "you pays your money and you takes your choice." This being said, one shouldn't try to force the code into supporting their decision to ignore it when, in point of fact, it does nothing of the sort. HAL does have a dress code which outlines the acceptable clothing standards for each night. To claim that this code is only a list of meaningless suggestions is to misconstrue the very essence, and intention, of having the various kinds of evenings.

Greg+
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Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Can we stop this merry-go-round. I'm getting dizzy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Never fear ... I have a feeling that we may be coming to the end of this thread. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We usually play around on the dress-code subject for a week, or so, and then change subjects. After beating up on HAL's tipping policy for a few weeks, this one was over-due.

What's next? Shall we progress back to HAL's alcohol policy?

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[jhannah]

I'm with ya' 100%. The idea presented above that "suggested" is really meaningless is such a lame argument. What would you expect a refined operation like HAL to say? "For proper ambiance of the evening, you need to wear a tux on formal nights. However, if it's simply too difficult for you to conform, you must wear at least a coat and tie on formal nights, you recalcitrant twits!" Yes, Greg, when my dad "suggested" I do something, I knew exactly what needed to be done.

'Vegas Jim

[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I can remember my father saying, "I suggest you clean your room before I get home." That was an order, not a "suggestion," regardless of how my Dad phrased it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Anyone not following the "suggestion" will be taken out to the wood shed by the maitre'd.

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What's next? Shall we progress back to HAL's alcohol policy? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think $17.25 corkage fee is more than reasonable. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[jhannah]

That's being done on another thread. How about smokers?

'Vegas Jim

[Vic The Parrot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhannah:
That's being done on another thread. How about smokers?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OH NO! NOT AGAIN!!! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Bringing up that subject is akin to turning off the lights, and watching the roaches come out. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

16 - HAL
10 - Cunard
4 - Home Lines
2 - NCL
2 - Royal Viking Line


"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines"

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ringing up that subject is akin to turning off the lights, and watching the roaches come out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But are those roaches properly dressed???? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[sammiedawg]

We're smart and savvy travelers but we didnt understand the "informal night" either. We always are well dressed but it didnt dawn on my husband to wear a jacket and I didnt wear a dress. This is an antiquated event that should be deep sixed. As far as I'm concerned, 1 formal night would be plenty, the rest should be casual. HAL is a nice line but don't confuse it with the QM2.

[FlorenceItaly]

Sammiedawg - One formal night for me would be plenty too.....

Marie

HAL - MAASDAM - June 2004/Canada/New England
RCI - Mariner of the Seas,
Sept 2004(CC Group Cruise)
RCI - Rhapsody of the Seas
October 2004


RCI Majesty of the Seas - Spring Break, March 2005
Celebrity Mercury, April 2005
Caribbean Princess, Sept 2005
(CC Group Cruise)

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As far as I'm concerned, 1 formal night would be plenty, the rest should be casual. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, then, we would have some of the same people who are complaining, now, about having to drag clothing for 1 informal night, whining and complaining about having to drag all that formal gear for just 1 night on the cruise. They would assert that it's just "old" to have a formal night -- young people can't be expected to dress up while on holiday! -- and so all nights on a cruise should be casual!!!!! And ... there ... the clothing down-graders have won. No more formal nights.

Sorry ... no ... I TOTALLY disagree with you. In my opinion HAL doesn't have enough formal nights in any given cruise. Just 1 formal night on a 7 day cruise is ASKING for people to complain about having ANY formal nights at all.

PLEASE, stop trying to ruin my cruise experience by taking out what little elegance it has left.


Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sammiedawg:
We're smart and savvy travelers but we didnt understand the "informal night" either. We always are well dressed but it didnt dawn on my husband to wear a jacket and I didnt wear a dress. This is an antiquated event that should be deep sixed. As far as I'm concerned, 1 formal night would be plenty, the rest should be casual. HAL is a nice line but don't confuse it with the QM2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AGREED and well said

[c-cruise]

revneal,

I have really enjoyed reading your comments on this topic and even though we obviously disagree I understand your desire to preserve the elegance of cruising.

My question is why are the two formal nights not enough to passify those that desire a more formal or elegant cruising experience?

By the way, I do enjoy the formal nights and think that there should be two on a 7 day cruise. If you are going to pack that suit or tux you might as well use it right? It's just that two nights of "cruise elegance" is enough for me and I would prefer to be more casual on the remaining evenings.

Future Cruises:
- 6/27/04 Sapphire Princess
- 12/12/04 Oosterdam

[Vic The Parrot]

All of this petty BS because some guys are lazy to put on a tie and wear a jacket.


3 words .......

Windjammer Barefoot Cruises http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

16 - HAL
10 - Cunard
4 - Home Lines
2 - NCL
2 - Royal Viking Line


"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines"

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My question is why are the two formal nights not enough to passify those that desire a more formal or elegant cruising experience?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an interesting question. Frankly, two formal nights a week IS sufficient for my tastes. Indeed, there ARE times when I DO enjoy just relaxing and not having to "suit up" and look all spiffy -- especially on nights after a LONG day of shore excursions.

This being said, I also enjoy something in-between. There are times when I DON'T feel like dressing up in my tux but I DO feel like putting a jacket on over my dockers and blue button-down shirt. Out of habit I'll also put on a tie; that's no big deal, and makes for a nice finish to the outfit for dinner. Other nights, however, I want to wear a suit and tie or clerical collar but NOT a tux; if all we had were formal nights and casual nights, I would have to waste a formal night (when I'd otherwise wear my tux) to get to wear a nice business suit.

Thankfully, I normally take cruises of 10+ days, meaning that I usually get 3 or more formal nights and at least a couple of informal nights on each cruise. That's a good balance.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[Mariposa]

I wish it weren't so complicated to have one 'informal' with coat (with or without tie) dining room and one 'informal' without coat or tie dining room ~ not just dining room vs Lido. Then everyone could eat with those who feel the same way about this 'informal' attire debate.

I'm just glad I'm not a guy cuz informal dresses vs dressy pant suits are enough of a delimna for me to worry about. LOL (my choice are those long flowing 'palazzo pants' that look like a long skirt. Best of both for my money. Dress em up or down depending on which top, accessories or shoes I choose. Plus THEY HAVE ELASTIC WAIST BANDS http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) I could actually wear these pants for casual, informal or formal nights and meet all the 'rules'.

Mariposa http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Orcrone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All of this petty BS because some guys are lazy to put on a tie and wear a jacket.


3 words .......

Windjammer Barefoot Cruises
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do people really think that there is nothing more to a cruise than dress code? Windjammer is a totally different cruise experience. It's much smaller than a typical cruise ship, with limited activities that can sail into smaller ports. If that's what a person perfers, then great. But should a person choose windjammer because your cruise gets ruined by a person in khakis and a button shirt on informal night?

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[Giorgi-one]

Ocrone:

I was not responding to your post. I am not even sure I ever read your post. I was responding to anyone who does not follow dress codes because no one is enforcing them. Adults should not have to have someone watching over them. I saw one post which read "the last thing I want to do is wear a tie on vacation". I can understand that. Find a different vacation or a different cruise line which does not have formal nights and informal nights.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Frankly, two formal nights a week IS sufficient for my tastes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In a earlier post you said 'In my opinion HAL doesn't have enough formal nights in any given cruise".. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In a earlier post you said 'In my opinion HAL doesn't have enough formal nights in any given cruise" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I wrote that "two formal nights a week IS sufficient for my tastes." And, yes, I also wrote: "HAL doesn't have enough formal nights in any given cruise." These two assertions are not contradictory; to put this simply, while two formal nights a week ARE sufficient for me, I WOULD still like HAL to have have more formal nights on any given cruise. The difference is between what I would like, as opposed to what I am willing to live with. I'm willing to live with two, but I'd like more.

Let me put this another way. Just because I say that two per week is sufficient doesn't mean that that's THE MOST I would like. No ... it's the other way around: two is as few per week as formal nights can be and I consider it sufficient; more would better, but two is sufficient.

Look at how I treat informal night to see what I mean. On many informal nights I will dress much as some male passengers dress on formal nights (i.e., dark business suit and tie). On longer cruises, where we have a few more informal nights than just the one informal per 7-day cruise, I can treat one or two as if they're more formal, while treating one or two as truly informal (I dress at or just a tiny bit above the informal night "standard").

I hope my distinction is clear. 2 formals a week ARE sufficient, but more would be preferred.

Greg+
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Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[hotspur]

I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night so they can feel self-important, and leave the rest of us who think it's a silly, dated affectation alone. If you think it's cool to play dress-up, then by all means do so.

Having spent a week on the Maasdam, I can assure everyone here there is absolutely no good reason for wearing formal attire. Not the food, not the service, not the setting, not the entertainment, not the demeanor of the staff or management. It's a low-priced cruise like all others. Filled with shameless hawking of art, bingo, chintzy shops, the casino, bad drinks, affiliated (kickbacks?) shops at ports, and grossly over-priced photographs and shore excursions.

I remain convinced the first formal night is there solely to sell pictures. Three times on the way to the Captain's welcome reception people were shanghaied for pictures in front of a bogus, trite backdrop of the Titanic staircase, something else I'm happy to have forgotten, and finally, with the beleaguered Captain. (On the Norwegian Dream, the Captain was frank enough to admit he was embarrassed by that nonsense in a public Q-and A session.) If someone thinks this is elegance or class worthy of formalwear, they have no sense of what elegance and class are. It's crass commercialism, and has no place on what tries to bill itself as a classy cruise line.

On the second formal night, where the dining room chairs were covered and fancy table linens were used, there appeared to be some hope. But the outrageous antics of the cruise director during the laughable baked-Alaska parade simply destroyed any semblance of grace or elegance at the dinner. The formal business is a joke, bluntly put. People here who think otherwise live in some kind of fantasy-land, trying to imagine themselves crossing the Atlantic on the Bremen or Europa some seventy years ago.

[Orcrone]

Hotspur,

I'm neutral on the subject. I'll dress appropriately, and don't mind doing so, but I really don't care what everyone else wears.

Just wanted to clear that up before I say,

"Duck, incoming!!!" http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I hope my distinction is clear. 2 formals a week ARE sufficient, but more would be preferred.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you for the clarification...I respect your desire for more formal nights and I would hope you respect the desires of those of us who do not want more.

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thank you for the clarification...I respect your desire for more formal nights and I would hope you respect the desires of those of us who do not want more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Opinions. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That's the beauty of informal nights. One guy (like me) can feel comfortable wearing a suit and tie, while another can wear dockers, print shirt and blazer, and yet they not horribly clash with each other. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Greg+
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[RevNeal]

Hotspur, did you forget to take your meds again?? I mean ... yeeeEEeeessssh ... why don't you just tell us what you REALLY think??? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Greg+
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[ekerr19]

Much of what hotspur says is the truth.

The commercialism is overwhelming. I never thought too much about it until I read his post. It is the same from ship to ship... the "art" auction (joke, imo) , the bingo, the drinks, the menu, the overpriced photos, the lousy shops... all of it. So why do we keep coming back? It's really quite simple.

On every cruise there are those moments when it feels indescribably wonderful. The sunsets, the ocean, the incredibly beautiful beach at HMC, the people we meet, the friends we make...

There is no real reason to dress up except that HAL asks its passengers to observe specific attire guidelines... why is this so hard to understand? It's not rocket science. It is a simple request to observe a dress code.

I remember going to a nice restaurant with my parents and brother. My brother was not wearing a jacket. He was asked to put one on while dining (the restaurant provided one), I remember him not wanting to do so - and my Dad said, "get over it already - either you put the thing on and we eat or you don't and you go sit in the car"!

My brother wore the jacket - and it didn't kill him.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[ryansmemom]

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gifDear Hotspur,

I fell so very sad for you today. I do hope you feel better. Things are really not that bleak.

Linda

Thanks for listening

[jhannah]

Hotspur, just remember that your knife cuts both ways. We could just as easily say "why don't people who refuse to conform to standard, traditional norms so they can feel self-important take another type of vacation and leave the rest of us alone who think it's both dignified and cool to play dress-up?"

'Vegas Jim

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The commercialism is overwhelming. I never thought too much about it until I read his post. It is the same from ship to ship... the "art" auction (joke, imo) , the bingo, the drinks, the menu, the overpriced photos, the lousy shops... all of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I certainly agree that commercialism is rife on HAL. I don't mind the photographing ... if I want one, I'll buy it, if I don't I won't. I agree that the "art" auction is a joke, and so I ignore it. Likewise regarding most of the on-board shops ... I ignore them, except for when I'm on a ship I haven't cruised on before, where I try to buy a couple of coffee mugs with the ship's name on them (I've been building a collection). I've attended Bingo some -- my mother enjoys it, and when I'm on a cruise with her I usually attend and play with her. I've actually won some money at it. Similar regarding the Casino. In short, yes commercialism is a annoying ... but there are few places in our culture where it isn't annoying. I just ignore it and have a good time anyway.

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
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[localady]

I have to second what ekerr said, we know how commercialized some portions of our cruises have become. Yet for a person who loves cruising, it is possible to cruise and avoid all that. I have never played bingo, and rarely pose for those photos. I love the veranda we always splurge on and spend hours on it just quietly listening and watching the sea and it's ever changing spectacle! For my husband and I, it's a way to see places we'd never see otherwise!

I have the best picture of my DH and I standing on the deck with Cape Horn, a very nice lady took it of us with my digital camera, IMHO that is what makes cruising "priceless" regardless of the commercialism.

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic
11/05 "Veendammers" Carribean

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Maasdam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[greatam]

You guys are freaking me out!!! I booked the Prinsendam, transat in November. The only reason I considered HAL was the supposedly more "formal atmosphere".

I own a logistics mangagement company-read glorified trucking company with logistics planning. Levi's and T-shirts are the order of the day. I sit here answering the phones in sweat shorts and T-shirt. If NOT for a business meetings or travel someplace, I DO NOT get out of these clothes. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY look forward to getting dressed to the nines.

I have sailed X 6 times and Princess once. And four other cruises that were so far off the charts most people don't know what I am talking about (Icebreaker to the North Pole, tramp steamer around Asia, etc) I always do longer cruises (10-27 days) and have generally had my fantasy of formal ambiance satisfied.

HOWEVER, my Princess cruise (7 day Dawn Princess- Alaska) was a disaster AFAIK.

I paid for top of the line suite, got little extra for my money except extra room, AND the PAX were disgusting. One gentleman showed up at formal night in his robe and pajamas from home and spent the whole night in the atrium (talk about eccentric!!). Another whole group-about 20 people-thought T-shirts with ALASKA in sequins were formal wear. It really ruined it for me. Their dress definitely represented the decorum and ambiance. Sloppy table manners, rude pax, yada, yada, yada.

I can sit in my office, NOT SPEND A PENNY WITH ANY CRUISELINE, and look at my driver's, mechanics and office staff to see T-shirts, khakis, shorts, etc.

I travel a lot-117,00 air miles last year all over the world, most on business. I really want and need the fantasy of cruise ship ambiance. If HAL is as degraded as some of the other lines (fill the ship at any cost-forget enforcing the "rules"), I am cancelling my HAL transat and booking something else. HAL looses my money. Some of these cruise lines just need to step up to the plate, declare themselves as "old time values and ambiance" cruise lines and some need to be "new" cruise lines. Maybe everyone would be happy.

DON'T tell me not to cancel my cruise if you believe a majority of PAX show up "underdressed" on HAL. What do you think???

[jhannah]

I'd go right ahead and enjoy the cruise. There will always be some people ... on all lines ... who don't want to conform. But this will be the exception rather than the rule. You will find that HAL has something a little different than other lines. Certainly a cut above a tramp steamer! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

'Vegas Jim

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My question is why are the two formal nights not enough to passify those that desire a more formal or elegant cruising experience?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an interesting question. Frankly, two formal nights a week IS sufficient for my tastes. Indeed, there ARE times when I DO enjoy just relaxing and not having to "suit up" and look all spiffy -- especially on nights after a LONG day of shore excursions.

This being said, I also enjoy something in-between. There are times when I DON'T feel like dressing up in my tux but I DO feel like putting a jacket on over my dockers and blue button-down shirt. Out of habit I'll also put on a tie; that's no big deal, and makes for a nice finish to the outfit for dinner. Other nights, however, I want to wear a suit and tie or clerical collar but NOT a tux; if all we had were formal nights and casual nights, I would have to waste a formal night (when I'd otherwise wear my tux) to get to wear a nice business suit.

Thankfully, I normally take cruises of 10+ days, meaning that I usually get 3 or more formal nights and at least a couple of informal nights on each cruise. That's a good balance.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
\
RevNeal - A question.

I respect your desire on occassion to dress up - but if their were no informal nights and just one Formal Night - no one would stop you from dressing up on the non-formal nights, correct?

So how is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights dissappear?

Feel free to get as "spiffy" as you want - but no need for everyone to follow suit.

People are individuals - with different tastes , likes and silikes. to each his/her own I say !!!

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mariposa:
I wish it weren't so complicated to have one 'informal' with coat (with or without tie) dining room and one 'informal' without coat or tie dining room ~ not just dining room vs Lido. Then everyone could eat with those who feel the same way about this 'informal' attire debate.

Mariposa http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

mariposa - actually, it ain't complicated. NCL does this fabulously well. On formal night, those who want to dress to the nines have their own sit down restaurant, and those who wish to remain casual and relaxed have their own sit down restaurant. Actually depending on the ship, each may have their choice of more than one "formal" or non-formal restaurant. And the codes at those are strictly enforced.

HAL should follow suit - It works tremendously well for NCL.

Simply make the Upper level formal and lower level non-formal - with open seating at both the specified early / late times.

Then people aren't shunned to the Lido buffet - and everyone gets what they want

[This message was edited by superstein61 on 06-18-04 at 07:43 PM.]

[superstein61]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hotspur:
I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night so they can feel self-important, and leave the rest of us who think it's a silly, dated affectation alone. If you think it's cool to play dress-up, then by all means do so.



[QUOTE]


STANDING OVATION FOR AN EXCELLENT POST HOTSPUR !!!!! Your first paragraph says it all. And you are right on the money when you say "I remain convinced the first formal night is there solely to sell pictures."

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
Hotspur, did you forget to take your meds again?? I mean ... yeeeEEeeessssh ... why don't you just tell us what you REALLY think??? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon Rev - thats uncalled for !!! Hotspur's post is the truth and you know it

[Orcrone]

Let's avoid the "meds" and the "self-important" comments or the board fairies will go poof and make this thread go bye-bye.

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[ryansmemom]

Dear Greatam,

The "truth" and I mean the real "truth" is a very rare thing acheived through the application of the scientific method and mathematics. The opinions expessed on this message board are based on personal experiences filtered through a persons attitudes and biases as well as their mood of the day and personal agenda.

I don't think it would be wise to either book or cancel a cruise based on the extreme views (positive or negative) written on this or any other message board. If you read a post, and feel you emotions being strongly stirred, my advise would be not to react the information offered in that post. Read the posts that are well thought out, have a calm tone and are written to inform, not to "get a reaction".

My last cruise was last December on the Rotterdam. I also sailed on the Maasdam last November. I personally enjoy an elegant, refined, quiet cruise. Do they take pictures, yes. Are there shops on board, yes. Did these things diminish my cruise, no. I live in the real world. I am a professional woman and a full fledged sane adult. I do not reside in a fantasy world. HAL ships are elegant, decorated with antiques and artifacts. I enjoyed the elegance of the Explorers Lounge at night. People, not all people, but most people dressed well. HAL staff will treat you with dignity and grace.

Enjoy your cruise.

Linda

Thanks for listening

[Orcrone]

Linda,

That was a well thought out, intelligent response. We will not tolerate that in any discussion about dress codes. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Let the mud-slinging continue.

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I respect your desire on occassion to dress up - but if their were no informal nights and just one Formal Night - no one would stop you from dressing up on the non-formal nights, correct?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one would stop me, true, but I would nevertheless be out of place -- and would, as a result, attract looks and be made to feel conspicuous and uncomfortable -- if I were to dress in a Tux on casual nights. If people decide to not dress up on formal nights, THEY are the ones who are out of place; if I decide to dress up on casual night, I am the one who is out of place.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So how is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights dissappear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is limited by me not having an extra night (in addition to the 2 formal nights) in which I don't look out of place if I decide to wear a suit and tie.

Now ... the contrary question is EQUALLY valid: How is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights and the standard two formal nights a week are maintained???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Feel free to get as "spiffy" as you want - but no need for everyone to follow suit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And stand out like a sore thumb, be conspicuous, and have the beer drinking, wet-t-shirt contest crowd pointing their fingers and laughing at me? No thank you. And ... if your response is "we don't have those kinds of people on HAL cruises" ... well, guess what ... we WILL.

Greg+
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[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I respect your desire on occassion to dress up - but if their were no informal nights and just one Formal Night - no one would stop you from dressing up on the non-formal nights, correct?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one would stop me, true, but I would nevertheless be out of place -- and would, as a result, attract looks and be made to feel conspicuous and uncomfortable -- if I were to dress in a Tux on casual nights. If people decide to not dress up on formal nights, THEY are the ones who are out of place; if I decide to dress up on casual night, I am the one who is out of place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But why worry about what others think? Why dress for someone's approval? Or not to feel out of place? Clothes do not make the man.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So how is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights dissappear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is limited by me not having an extra night (in addition to the 2 formal nights) in which I don't look out of place if I decide to wear a suit and tie.

Now ... the contrary question is EQUALLY valid: How is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights and the standard two formal nights a week are maintained??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, with more freedom of choice, everyone gains. People will be free to do as they choose. You can still get as dressy as you want - and I can wear my khakis - and I am sure the world will not stop and we both would enjoy ourselves


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Feel free to get as "spiffy" as you want - but no need for everyone to follow suit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And stand out like a sore thumb, be conspicuous, and have the beer drinking, wet-t-shirt contest crowd pointing their fingers and laughing at me? No thank you. And ... if your response is "we don't have those kinds of people on HAL cruises" ... well, guess what ... we WILL.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again - why worry about what others think. Isn't it Matthew who declared "Judge not, lest ye be judged." ???

Why not follow those words of wisdom and don't judge those who dress differently than you - and I am sure they will do the same. People of all types can coexist, no matter how well or poorly dressed each one is

[RevNeal]

Dear superstein61,

I know that you gave hotspur a standing ovation for the following statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night so they can feel self-important, and leave the rest of us who think it's a silly, dated affectation alone. If you think it's cool to play dress-up, then by all means do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, however, took GREAT OFFENSE at it. I viewed it as a ridicule-filled personal attack which belittled and made fun of those of us who like to dress up on formal nights. My response, however, was to make light of it so as not to continue the war. As such, my response was IN NO WAY "uncalled for."

Hotspur's post was NOT "truth." I do NOT dress up so that I can feel "self-important." I dress up EVERY WEEK, several times a week, in connection with my work as a pastor. I wear robes every Sunday and have MANY opportunities, throughout the year, to go to formal events. I don't go on cruises so that I can pretend I'm someone important by dressing up on formal nights. I don't believe it is a silly, dated affectation ... and I certainly don't believe that I am being silly, false, or pretentious when I put on a suit and tie, or a tux, for a formal night on a cruise. Hotspur ... and, now, you ... have passed judgment on me and on those of us who like to dress up for formal nights. Do you REALLY expect me to agree with that judgment???

So ... no ... in my opinion my remark was NOT uncalled for. Was I sarcastic? YES. But, in my opinion, that was much nicer than what would have happened if I had gone through hotspur's post and blasted it to kingdom come via a point-by-point response.

Greg+
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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But why worry about what others think? Why dress for someone's approval? Or not to feel out of place? Clothes do not make the man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people don't like standing out like a sore thumb. Some people like to abide by the published dress code.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Because, with more freedom of choice, everyone gains. People will be free to do as they choose. You can still get as dressy as you want - and I can wear my khakis - and I am sure the world will not stop and we both would enjoy ourselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The world will also not stop if you were to abide by the dress code and not try to change it on other people.

Freedom of choice is nice ... but everyone does not gain if dress-codes are reduced to one formal night a week. Those who want to dress formally and enjoy the formal-type environment will lose: firstly, because it's a reduction in the number of nights where the atmosphere will be geared to formal wear; secondly, because there will be many who will view one formal night a week as not being sufficient reason for bringing formal wear -- and, hence, they will whine and carp for all nights to be casual. The only winners will be the whiners.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Again - why worry about what others think. Isn't it Matthew who declared "Judge not, lest ye be judged." ???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What in the world does that have to do with the price of tea in china ... I'm not the one judging other people for how they dress; rather, I don't want to be the one judged for wearing clothing that is out-of-step with the dress code.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why not follow those words of wisdom and don't judge those who dress differently than you - and I am sure they will do the same. People of all types can coexist, no matter how well or poorly dressed each one is <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes you think I'm JUDGING the eternal salvation or moral perfection of anyone who prefers to dress differently than I? THAT is the context of those words, you know ... any other application is isegesis, not exegesis.

Sorry ... all I ask is that people abide by the minimal standards outlined for each night in the dress code. Is that so much to ask?? And, is it JUDGING someone to ask it?

Frankly, it would appear that you can't coexist with a cruise line that has a dress code outlining 2 formal nights, 1 informal night, and 4 casual nights per week.

Greg+
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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Let the mud-slinging continue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it fun? In mud-slinging those who argue for all-casual-dress have a definite advantage ... they don't have to worry about getting mud on their cummerbund! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DUCK!

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ woosh! ------>>> *SPLAT*!

That one was CLOSE! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Better help me with the catapult.

Greg+
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[localady]

My best girl friend and I have taken cruises where we really were not interested in dressing up, it was more of a "girls snorkeling week".

I understood the expected dress beforehand and make my choice accordingly. Why should I go to dinner in my lounge wear and stick out like a sore thumb. On those formal nights, we'd check the menu and order to our hearts delight, eatting on our balcony! We actually found our evenings spent on our balcony eatting a meal while the sea passed us by to be some of the besthttp://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think we can all coexist and enjoy our vacations our wayhttp://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We are so blessed to get the opportunity to go on them.

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic
11/05 "Veendammers" Carribean

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Maasdam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
Dear superstein61,

I know that you gave hotspur a standing ovation for the following statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night so they can feel self-important, and leave the rest of us who think it's a silly, dated affectation alone. If you think it's cool to play dress-up, then by all means do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, however, took _GREAT OFFENSE_ at it. I viewed it as a ridicule-filled personal attack which belittled and made fun of those of us who like to dress up on formal nights. My response, however, was to make light of it so as not to continue the war. As such, my response was IN NO WAY "uncalled for." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RevNeal - Sorry, but I guess I should have clarified my response to Hotspur. I don't condone the ridicule and condescending attitude of anyone. So I am not supporting that. But I do applaud at his/her basic message that I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night and those who do not, don't. Leaving the rhetoric out of it - I fully support that.

And sorry - but your response WAS UNCALLED FOR. i did not see it as making light of his/her post - but rather an attempt at your own ridicule of him/her. You are implying he/she must be psychotic / mental to post what he/she did. Thats wrong.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Hotspur's post was NOT "truth." I do NOT dress up so that I can feel "self-important." I dress up EVERY WEEK, several times a week, in connection with my work as a pastor. I wear robes every Sunday and have MANY opportunities, throughout the year, to go to formal events. I don't go on cruises so that I can pretend I'm someone important by dressing up on formal nights. I don't believe it is a silly, dated affectation ... and I certainly don't believe that I am being silly, false, or pretentious when I put on a suit and tie, or a tux, for a formal night on a cruise. Hotspur ... and, now, you ... have passed judgment on me and on those of us who like to dress up for formal nights. Do you REALLY expect me to agree with that judgment???

So ... no ... in my opinion my remark was NOT uncalled for. Was I sarcastic? YES. But, in my opinion, that was much nicer than what would have happened if I had gone through hotspur's post and blasted it to kingdom come via a point-by-point response.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as the truth I refer to - I was referring to what Hotspur noted about the crass commercialism of cruising - and that formal nights is just an attempt of the crusielines to cash in with photos, tux rentals, hairstylists, corsages, etc.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer in what I specifically was applauding

[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry, but I guess I should have clarified my response to Hotspur. I don't condone the ridicule and condescending attitude of anyone. So I am not supporting that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I appreciate that. Thank you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night and those who do not, don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't do this because we DO NOT want to be thought of as being self-important, pompous, arrogant, or pretentious. We want to fit in and have a good time. So ... I'm sorry, but, even your question reflects a subtle, perhaps unconscious assumption that those of us who like dressing up WANT to be noticed, thought of us being special, or are pompous.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> nd sorry - but your response WAS UNCALLED FOR. i did not see it as making light of his/her post - but rather an attempt at your own ridicule of him/her. You are implying he/she must be psychotic / mental to post what he/she did. Thats wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I accept that as your opinion, but I do not share it. As for what I was implying ... if anything, I was implying that hotspur's ridicule was childish and indicative of a need for Methylphenidate (aka Ritalin).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As far as the truth I refer to - I was referring to what Hotspur noted about the crass commercialism of cruising - and that formal nights is just an attempt of the crusielines to cash in with photos, tux rentals, hairstylists, corsages, etc.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer in what I specifically was applauding <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that was what you were applauding, why didn't you quote hotspur's statement to that effect, and not the precise portion where hotspur ridiculed those of us who like dressing up?

As I wrote earlier, I agree that commercialism is pretty crass on HAL ... as it is on many cruise lines. I just ignore it and dress up for MY OWN REASONS on formal and informal nights.

Greg+
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[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But why worry about what others think? Why dress for someone's approval? Or not to feel out of place? Clothes do not make the man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people don't like standing out like a sore thumb. Some people like to abide by the published dress code.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, well I guess I have always had the attitude that its more important for me to feel good about myself and do what I like to do rather than worry about what others may think of me. I guess not everyone shares that sentiment - and do have concerns over how others perceive them. I guess I can understand that


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Because, with more freedom of choice, everyone gains. People will be free to do as they choose. You can still get as dressy as you want - and I can wear my khakis - and I am sure the world will not stop and we both would enjoy ourselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The world will also not stop if you were to abide by the dress code and not try to change it on other people.

Freedom of choice is nice ... but everyone does not gain if dress-codes are reduced to one formal night a week. Those who want to dress formally and enjoy the formal-type environment will lose: firstly, because it's a reduction in the number of nights where the atmosphere will be geared to formal wear; secondly, because there will be many who will view one formal night a week as not being sufficient reason for bringing formal wear -- and, hence, they will whine and carp for all nights to be casual. The only winners will be the whiners.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well on this point I think we will still disagree. And anyway, as I posted earlier - I really think HAL would be best off adopting the NCL approach to formal nights. Make the Upper DR Formal, and the lower DR informal. Have open seatings at two times - with the codes for each DR strictly enofrced. Each group gets what they want - with no one being shunned to the Lido buffet and without upsetting the other. It really works fabulously well on NCL.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Again - why worry about what others think. Isn't it Matthew who declared "Judge not, lest ye be judged." ???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What in the world does that have to do with the price of tea in china ... I'm not the one judging other people for how they dress; rather, I don't want to be the one judged for wearing clothing that is out-of-step with the dress code.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me??? It seems you are judging others by how they dress - by not accepting them if they don't follow a certain dress code. Additionally, I think you are judging others who would like less formal nights and the abolishment of informal night.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why not follow those words of wisdom and don't judge those who dress differently than you - and I am sure they will do the same. People of all types can coexist, no matter how well or poorly dressed each one is <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes you think I'm JUDGING the eternal salvation or moral perfection of anyone who prefers to dress differently than I? THAT is the context of those words, you know ... any other application is isegesis, not exegesis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be the context of those words - but the same concept applies in other circumstances.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Sorry ... all I ask is that people abide by the minimal standards outlined for each night in the dress code. Is that so much to ask?? And, is it JUDGING someone to ask it?

Frankly, it would appear that you can't coexist with a cruise line that has a dress code outlining 2 formal nights, 1 informal night, and 4 casual nights per week.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I have said it here several times that I happen to be one person who has always followed the dress code on every cruise I have been on. That said, I do not like the code and think it should be changed / lessoned. I love how NCL handles the dress code - IMO, they "get it" and there are no debates such as this.

All that said, the more I read here and the more I debate here, the more I know I am NOT going to follow the code this July on the Zuiderdam. I will still dress neatly - good enough for any nice restaurant - in khaki's and a nice shirt - but I am jettisoning my coat and tie. It makes no sense on a Caribbean itenary in the middle of the summer

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Let the mud-slinging continue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it fun? In mud-slinging those who argue for all-casual-dress have a definite advantage ... they don't have to worry about getting mud on their cummerbund! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DUCK!

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ woosh! ------>>> *SPLAT*!

That one was CLOSE! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Better help me with the catapult.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes - those in tuxes make such nice targets - but unfortunately the mud blends right in with everything else they are shoveling http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just a joke Rev, just a joke http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by localady:

I think we can all coexist and enjoy our vacations our wayhttp://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We are so blessed to get the opportunity to go on them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Unfortunately, I hear those balconies on the inside cabins are mighty small - so I guess its the Main Dining Room for me http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry, but I guess I should have clarified my response to Hotspur. I don't condone the ridicule and condescending attitude of anyone. So I am not supporting that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I appreciate that. Thank you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night and those who do not, don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't do this because we DO NOT want to be thought of as being self-important, pompous, arrogant, or pretentious. We want to fit in and have a good time. So ... I'm sorry, but, even your question reflects a subtle, perhaps unconscious assumption that those of us who like dressing up WANT to be noticed, thought of us being special, or are pompous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are reading way too much in my post - I believe people should do what makes them happy and what feels right to them. if you enjoy dressing up, do so. I won't judge you. Just like I would ask that you not judge me if I eschew a jacket for just a comfortable but nice shirt

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> nd sorry - but your response WAS UNCALLED FOR. i did not see it as making light of his/her post - but rather an attempt at your own ridicule of him/her. You are implying he/she must be psychotic / mental to post what he/she did. Thats wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I accept that as your opinion, but I do not share it. As for what I was implying ... if anything, I was implying that hotspur's ridicule was childish and indicative of a need for Methylphenidate (aka Ritalin).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, again we will have to disagree. I understand what you are saying - but you just reinforced my belief by referring to a need for Ritalin. I just don't think thats productive.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As far as the truth I refer to - I was referring to what Hotspur noted about the crass commercialism of cruising - and that formal nights is just an attempt of the crusielines to cash in with photos, tux rentals, hairstylists, corsages, etc.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer in what I specifically was applauding <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that was what you were applauding, why didn't you quote hotspur's statement to that effect, and not the precise portion where hotspur ridiculed those of us who like dressing up?

As I wrote earlier, I agree that commercialism is pretty crass on HAL ... as it is on many cruise lines. I just ignore it and dress up for MY OWN REASONS on formal and informal nights.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually did try and go back and edit my post before anyone had responded - but alas 30 minutes had passed.

[F5Loar]

Wow! I leave town for one day and come back to this and Walt still hasn't closed it. I told you we would make it to page 4! I can't believe I read about these whinny people who say the didn't really understand what "informal" meant anyway. So let me understand your mentality here. HAL sends everyone a nice phamplet titled "Know Before You Go" which spells out the 3 dress codes so simple (page 15 for those of you who missed it) a 5 year old could pack your suitcase with the proper attire. You get to your room and your daily paper is on your bed which again spells out the 3 dress codes. And then you get it again the night before what you are to wear to dinner the next night so you can get in the mood to dress for sucess. And heaven forbid if you didn't get it by now you should have the intellengence to just go down to the DR or even the front desk and ask someone what is proper to wear on this complicated "informal" night. If you don't get it by then you are simply being a jerk. I know of no better word. You are using your ignorance as a cop out for following the dress codes. Don't tell me how you feel so much better with no jacket on or how you saw so and so enter without one. We are telling you here it's wrong. So and so didn't get the message here, you are. So if you choose to still show up after all these "suggestions" on how it should be then you are just being a jerk. And I thought only Bubba cruisers acted this way. After seeing it myself on Maasdam a few weeks ago I am totally convinced the world is full of jerks and many of them are cruising. And don't call me a snob because I'm a Carolina Redneck and proud of it.
I prefer cruising to NASCAR and Coon hunting but deep down I'm just a redneck. And don't call me a slob because I do adhere faithfully to every cruiselines dress code. NCL/Princess does not work fine if you do the formal room at 7PM when everyone else is doing it. Waiting in line for over an hour is not my idea of fun cruising. On one night on NCL the line was so long in the formal room we opted to go back and change to eat in the more causal room. I guess we could have gone to the casual DR in our formals, tux and all but my how we would have stuck out like a sore thumb. I wonder if the door guy would have turned us away for being overdressed or coming into the wrong DR? The point I am making here is you all can go ahead and tell us why you are in the right to ignore the dress codes while we watch you stick out like a sore thumb with thoughts of "jerk" going through our minds. It won't damper our meal or cruise one bit but at least we had fun talking behind your back. Go ahead and make my day. I like a little laugh once and a while.

http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=ff00ff&cdt=2003;07;19;13;00;00&timezone=GMT-0500
Till we sail on the Zuiderdam

Til we sail on the Mariner of The Seas RCL
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until we sail on the Disney Wonder
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til we sail the ms Maasdam
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[Host Walt]

OK. I'm closing it.

As with most threads on attire that go this long, the subject, for reasons unknown to me, become heated.

I suggest that, for a more comprehensive discussion on the subject of attire, that you all go to the Cruise Fashions (http://messages.cruisecritic.com/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&s=927093444&a=corfrm&cf=8170905551) message board.

Thanks.

Walt Tuthill
Cruise Board Moderator

Contact at Shiptender@aol.com

[superstein61]

Yes indeed F5Loar - The world is full of jerks, thanks for confirming that for me and giving me my laugh this evening.

[Joedog]

Wow, I can't believe how much this thread has grown in a day (night). So much has been written that I can't remember what I read and wanted to comment about.

I guess what I wanted to say, to put my two cents worth in, is that I personally am not comfortable eating dinner in a jacket and won't if I don't have to. Some may feel that I am ruining or somehow cheapening their cruise experience by not wearing a jacket on informal night and I am sorry but all indications are that the jacket requirement on informal night seems to be going away. Yes there may be a "rule" or other guidance from HAL stating a jacket must or should be worn on informal night but in practice that seems not to be being enforced.

A wise person in the Navy once told me that if I step over a piece of trash on the deck and do nothing about it I am setting the standard of cleanliness at that level. Well, by not enforcing the jacket requirement on informal night HAL is setting the standard of dress for informal night as "jacket not really required", which is fine with me as I am more comfortable without one.

Someone earlier was commenting that people who did not want to follow the dress code should choose a different cruise line. I dont know about most people cruising on HAL but I chose HAL because the price was right for the itinerary.....period! I didnt give one thought to what would be required as far as evening dress goes. I dont have enough money to have that luxury.

I would suggest that if you do have enough money to have a choice in cruise lines and you are offended or feel cheated by people around you not wearing jackets on informal night that you find yourself a cruiseline that enforces that rule keeping in mind, if HAL is not enforcing the jacket requirement than that requirement does not exist, at least not for HAL.

Lastly, for those that read this thread and think those of us who choose not to wear a jacket on informal night are "rule breakers" who knew what the dress code was and should have chosen a different cruise line if we didnt like it. I have a question for you......do you ever drive over the speed limit or break any other driving or parking rule? Do those rules not count because everyone does it?

Just some food for thought.

Ruth and Joe


__ /7__X__/7________
\::::::::::::::::::::::::/ Holland America - Zuiderdam 7/24/04
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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NCL Dawn - 7/27/03 (Honeymoon)

[RevNeal]

Walt,

I'm sorry if I got a little too strident. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Let the thread stay open ... and please don't send those who want to argue about it away to another area. If you do, what will we talk about on the HAL board??? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm going to be gone for a week beginning Monday morning ... my Dad and I are going on a fishing trip on the Mountain Fork River in Southeastern OK. I won't be back online until Friday Night (at the earliest). Everybody have fun without me! Sling clean mud! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh ... and ... NO, we will NOT be wearing Tuxedoes on my Dad's Canoe! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Greg+
Maasdam: Western Caribbean Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/wcaribbcruise.html)
Volendam: Wayfarer Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/volcruise1.html)
Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video (http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html)
Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures (http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html)


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Until Departure on the MS Zaandam, Panama Canal
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[Mariposa]

Good grief. I just got caught up on reading this thread and felt like I was in English 101 trying to figure out the quotes, subquotes, who said what and when. I always did hate footnotes. LOL http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Mariposa http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Vic The Parrot]

...a cruise line that has a dress code outlining 2 formal nights, 1 informal night, and 4 casual nights per week......



Forgive me for asking this, but what exactly IS THE PROBLEM?? That typical week on a cruise outlined above has a majority of casual nights.

Does it really matter if we have to do black tie for 1 night, and wear a simple jacket for the other 2 nights?

Ok, so the casual nights win. 4 out of 3 isn't bad when you really look at it.

I did 2 crossings on the QE, and there were NO casual nights at all. It didn't bother me to wear a jacket and tie on the 1st, and last night on board. The nights in between were fun!

Imagine wearing a tux for 4 nights in a row!
Some gents wore a dark suit, and even spotted some kilts. Casual was fine during the day.

If some of these people moan about wearing a jacket and tie on a Carib cruise for 2 nights, I can imagine what they'll say when on board a Cunard ship.

This whole issue really isn't making any sense.
Wearing a jacket and tie for a night won't kill you.

Man, jhannah was right..... we should go back to talking about smoking. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

16 - HAL
10 - Cunard
4 - Home Lines
2 - NCL
2 - Royal Viking Line


"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines"

[annebill]

Walt, there is something very sad going on here. Close it.

[F5Loar]

He already did!

http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=ff00ff&cdt=2003;07;19;13;00;00&timezone=GMT-0500
Till we sail on the Zuiderdam

Til we sail on the Mariner of The Seas RCL
http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=808000&cdt=2004;3;7;12;01;00&timezone=GMT-0500
until we sail on the Disney Wonder
http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=00ff00&cdt=2003;10;09;12;01;00&timezone=GMT-0500
til we sail the ms Maasdam
http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=808000&cdt=2004;05;29;11;30;00&timezone=GMT-0500

[Stevesan]

Some of you guys need to get a chat room.
I thought this was closed????
Where's Walt when you need him?

1957-USS General A.E. Anderson, Tokyo to San Francisco; 1999-Norwegian Sea, W. Carib; 1999-RVI, Europe; 2000-Mercury, W. Carib; 2000-Volendam, S. Carib; 2001-Viking Star, Danube River; 2001-Veendam, E. Carib; 2002 B2B- Veendam, Alaska; 2003 B2B-Zuiderdam, W/E Carib; Mar 2004-Maasdam, E Carib; 26 Nov 2005 Veendam, S Carib

[jhannah]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> OK, well I guess I have always had the attitude that its more important for me to feel good about myself and do what I like to do rather than worry about what others may think of me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that's the source of so many problems in society at large ... more concern for self vs. the common good. But I digress.

This is a hot issue that will continue to have its proponents on each side of the fence. I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine. I'll still enjoy my cruise, and be thankful that I'm getting to do it.

'Vegas Jim

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by revneal:
Walt,

I'm sorry if I got a little too strident. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Let the thread stay open ... and please don't send those who want to argue about it away to another area. If you do, what will we talk about on the HAL board??? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Walt

Get this - I concur with Rev Neal !!!!! Leave the thread open

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vic The Parrot:
...a cruise line that has a dress code outlining 2 formal nights, 1 informal night, and 4 casual nights per week......



Forgive me for asking this, but what exactly IS THE PROBLEM?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vic - I guess you haven't been following along - but some folks would prefer no informal night and others would even advocate a cutback of official formal nights.

Let folks dress Formally any night they plase - and let folks dress casually any night they please. I am sure they will still co-exist fine.

Oh - and I do not sail Cunard - so I guess I don't have that to worry about

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhannah:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> OK, well I guess I have always had the attitude that its more important for me to feel good about myself and do what I like to do rather than worry about what others may think of me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that's the source of so many problems in society at large ... more concern for self vs. the common good. But I digress.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh. you gotta be kidding me. You are taking my quote WAY out of context.

My quote merely says as long as I feel good about myself, I could care less what others think about me. Why is everyone worried about others perceptions on a cruise?

I don't judge others by their dress or looks or religion, etc - they shouldn't judge me that way either.