Why not redefine "formal"?

[annebill]

Have you ever wondered how people of past centuries could stand to wear the fashionable clothes of those times--the stiff high collars, the yards of embroidery, the ridiculous hats, the waist piching corsets, etc.? I predict that sometime in the near future people will look back at us and wonder why we put up with our "fashionable" attire--particularly the coats and "chokers" for men and the shoes for women. Who decreed that men should have to wear coats and ties to be fashionable or formal, anyway? Have you ever attended an outdoor wedding in a tux when the temperature was about 95 and the humidity 98% ? It ain't fun, folks.

I think we should just say "enough" to the fashion setters and declare our own dressy and formal fashions. My suggestion would be to copy our Mexican friends and start wearing a Guayabera (sp?) type shirt--you know, those open collar and untucked type shirts. They can have all kinds of fancy embroidery down the front, different colors, etc. The Mexicans wear them for all formal and dressy occasions and they not only look nice, but are much cooler and more comfortable than coats and ties. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[sail7seas]

My preference is for traditional dress.

Why is it asbsolutely mandatory that we always have to be extremely comfortable in our clothes? IMO sometimes it is worth expending a little energy/effort to make something special from the everyday ordinary. JMHO....but I feel the specialness of seeing my husband in his tuxedo is very worth some slight amount of lack of sweatpant comfort.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I totally agree with sail7seas, I love seeing my husband in a tux and guess what, he loves to dress up in a tux. The weeks before we go he runs around town looking for a new cumberbun or vest to change the look or maybe get new cufflinks. It started out on our first cruise as a joke that he would wear anything for lobster night but it has gone way past that we feel that it is part of what cruising is. Kind of a celebration of what cruising was and still should be. Cruising is more than a vacation, there is a special feeling when you are on a cruise and being at sea. I feel it is my obligation to continue to dress up on formal night, to keep the True Cruising Tradition Alive. There is nothing like that special feeling of walking among the other passengers that are all dressed up and feeling really good about yourself. You can almost feel what it must of been like for those passengers on ships like the Titanic.
I for one want to continue that wonderful tradition. I am not trying to be something I am not but for 2 nights my husband and I feel really special and we feel really special about each other.

Lisa L

Monarch of the Seas-March 2002 West. Carib.
MS Zuiderdam-April 2003 East.Carib.
Monarch of the Seas-December 2003 Baja Mexico
MS Oosterdam-May 2004 Alaska

Till we set sail on the MS Ryndam-Sea of Cortez-November 2004
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[Randyk47]

Personally I have no problem with the present definition of "formal". I like it, my wife likes it and we'll continue to adher to the dress code. Our next cruise has 3 formal nights and we're looking forward to those. For us they're part of the cruise experience that we enjoy.

Until Galaxy
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[annebill]

Would you be broadminded enough to accept "alternative formal" in the dining room ?

[LAFFNVEGAS]

IMHO that would be Norwegian or Princess Cruise Lines.

Lisa L

Monarch of the Seas-March 2002 West. Carib.
MS Zuiderdam-April 2003 East.Carib.
Monarch of the Seas-December 2003 Baja Mexico
MS Oosterdam-May 2004 Alaska

Till we set sail on the MS Ryndam-Sea of Cortez-November 2004
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Till We set sail on the MS Westerdam-Western Caribbean March 2005
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[ron46936]

Princess does not have an exception to formal dress in the PC dining room. Only NCL is sensible enough to designate one dining room as formal and others as casual. That way you have the choice of dining with people who are formally attired if that is your preference. Those who come to the formal room in casual clothes are told they might be more comfortable in another dining room.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Sorry ron46936 I was under the impression from my TA that you can choose on Princess what style of dining you preferred and they had several different alternative dining options.

Lisa L

Monarch of the Seas-March 2002 West. Carib.
MS Zuiderdam-April 2003 East.Carib.
Monarch of the Seas-December 2003 Baja Mexico
MS Oosterdam-May 2004 Alaska

Till we set sail on the MS Ryndam-Sea of Cortez-November 2004
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Till We set sail on the MS Westerdam-Western Caribbean March 2005
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[Krazy Kruizers]

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Formal

It doesn't bother us at all to be dressed up. We love it and don't mind be dressed up FOR THE ENTIRE EVENING. We also had to do it when we were working. There were special occasions while working that required husband to wear a tuxedo and I, of course, had to be dressed up.

Husband has several bow ties and cummerbuns. Now that the ruffled shirts are coming back in style, he even bought a new black and white one last Christmas.

If you don't want to dress up - go to another cruise line like NCL.

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Randyk47]

"Alternative formal" is just a new definition of formal and I don't see a need to change the definition. Has nothing to do with being or not being broadminded. I'm not old or set in my ways or conservative or any other label you wish to pick....well....might be willing to say we're traditional. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Until Galaxy
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[ASM]

What's so uncomfortable about formal clothes?

[sail7seas]

ASM...for the gents, it seems to me a tuxedo is a suit with a satin stripe down the trouser leg and satin lapels. Maybe some men do not like wearing a cumerbund if their abs are not quite as flat as they might like http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So, there is always the choice of a vest. I cannot see how a guy is all that uncomfortable wearing a suit.

For the ladies, maybe the high heels and strappy sandals pinch the feet a bit after wearing flat shoes/sneakers/low heeled sandals most of the time. And, to put it "delicately", some ladies find it prefereable to wear special undergarments with their closer fitting dresses. Maybe they are not hugely comfortable but such is the price of beauty http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No one says it is necessary to be pinched and tugged and pulled into agony.

As has been written on this board a million (or more) times.....they can wear a pair of silk/satin evening pants and a beaded or jeweled or dressy top of some sort, put on a dressy shoe and maybe a pretty earring and they'd be dressed appropriately.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[Randyk47]

There shouldn't be anything uncomfortable about formal wear. Having been in the clothing business I know from experience that men, for instance, seem determined to buy the wrong size shirts...particularly the collar and then complain it's too tight.

Until Galaxy
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[ASM]

I agree the heels are literally a pain! DH has never found formal wear a problem and he's a very outdoorsy kind of guy. I guess I just don't understand why people have issues with different clothes for different occasions. Oh well, to each his own.

[annebill]

As s7s points out, women have a much, much wider range and choices for "formal" than do men. Is this not so ? All I was suggesting was to let us have a choice of what is to be considered "formal". Would you ladies like to be limited to long evening gowns only, or do you enjoy being able to chose between that, short formals, pants, etc.? What would you think if a Mexican gentleman wore his "formal" wedding shirt--the type I described--in the dining room in your presence. What would you think if a man were offended by your wearing pants instead of a long formal gown, even if you wore a jeweled top and all that stuff ? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[WindyCity]

My husband liked dressing up for formal nights so much that he went out yesterday and purchased a tuxedo. It makes for such a special evening and it is comfortable - unless you get it too small as a previous poster had mentioned.

I also like to wear an evening gown - low heels, as long as they are dressy enough or sandals work well - so no need to suffer with high heels.

As I stated earlier - dressing up for the entire evening in formal wear makes the night special... something that rarely happens in our hectic day to day life and we look forward to formal nights.

Westerdam Eastern Caribbean 12/12/04

[gliles]

I agree with s7s, I love to see my husband in a tux, he looks so good. I find comfortable ways to dress formal myself and although not as comfortable as a pair of jeans, it's fun to dress sometimes since we don't have much occasion to otherwise. We also have to look good for the formal pictures we send to his mother after the cruise.

Oosterdam
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Husbands are like pancakes, you have to throw the first one out.

[GAndie]

My formal attire consists of very formal pantsuits or palazzos. I'm comfortable, not bad to look at and fit right in!

The important thing is to get clothes that fit and not to try to squeeze a size 14 into a size 6...won't work, won't feel good!

[ocngypz]

My evening wear is just as comfortable as the clothes.. including shoes.. I wear everyday.
Only the fabric and length of skirt changes.

[ron46936]

I asked the question on the Princess board regarding formal nights. The reply I got (which is consistent with their brochure) is that Princess is basically the same as HAL for dress. That is you go to the buffet if you wish not to dress formally. There were several people that did go to the Lido on our Noordam cruise because they did not wish to dress formally.

[annebill]

Some are missing my point---it was not whether or not to go formal, but could there be more options for "formal" for men, as there are for ladies. Somewhere along the line it was decided that women didn't have to be in long gowns to be considered formal.Why not some similar options for men---and I don't mean suit vs tux, I mean the option to not wear coats and ties. BTW, I carry my tux on every cruise and always follow the rules. This is just for discussion.

[superstein61]

All righty - here we go again http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Love the idea Annebill. Neckties are the scourge of the fashion industry and should be abolished. Not only are they uncomfortable, they serve no practical purpose and they can cost a lot

I am forgoing my necktie this summer on HAL !!!

And my jacket is probably going overboard as well http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where can I find one of those Mexican Guayaberas? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sail7seas:
Why is it asbsolutely mandatory that we always have to be extremely comfortable in our clothes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoken from someone who doesn't have to wear a nectie and coat in 90 degree weather.

And why should we be comfortable - c'mon, you've got to be kidding me. Do you harken back to the days of tight laced up corsets and huge hoop skirts for women?

[Roadguy]

Question: When was it 90 degrees in the dining room?...

While We are at it , are there any other words We should redefine?.........

It's only money!!

Zaandam 12/01
Zeiderdam 12/02
Volendam 12/02
Rotterdam 11/03
Maasdam 04/04
Oosterdam 12/04
Veendam 11/05

[annebill]

You are a man after my own heart, Superstein61. Do you think we two could start a trend ? Off hand, I don't know just where to find one but have seen them in various catalogs. I have also seen them in a Steinmart.The other thread seemed to be getting some terribly upset, so thought I'd try something in a lighter vein.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ron46936:
I asked the question on the Princess board regarding formal nights. The reply I got (which is consistent with their brochure) is that Princess is basically the same as HAL for dress. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ron46936, I was just wondering when you asked this question on the Princess Board? I seached the Princess Board and could not find such question. I also did a search of your recent posts and went back over a year and could not find it. I was just interested in reading the reponses.

Lisa L

Monarch of the Seas-March 2002 West. Carib.
MS Zuiderdam-April 2003 East.Carib.
Monarch of the Seas-December 2003 Baja Mexico
MS Oosterdam-May 2004 Alaska

Till we set sail on the MS Ryndam-Sea of Cortez-November 2004
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Till We set sail on the MS Westerdam-Western Caribbean March 2005
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[user8]

I just got off the Statendam and we had two formal evenings. I wore my tux the first night and felt out of place as there were so few other men wearing them. I opted for a coat and tie the second formal night and was definitely with the majority- at least for the 6:15 dining time. I did not see a single tux in the dining room except for the staff people.

As for comfort, I was much more comfortable in the coat and tie than I was in my tux. My tux shirt has a higher, stiff collar which bothers me, perhaps because I wear a tux shirt so seldom.

[OCruisers]

Formal clothes do NOT have to be uncomfortable!!!!! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Why people don't make absolutely sure their formal clothes fit comfortably before going on a cruise is beyond me! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

My DH has no problem with his tux because it fits him (with a bit of room to spare so it will still fit by the end of the cruise http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)!!!!!!!!!!!

I do the same not only with FORMAL ... but, also EVERYTHING I take on a cruise. If an outfit is even the least bit snug, it doesn't get to go cruising! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We are equally as comfortable in our clothes/shoes for formal nights as we are on casual nights! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Didn't mean to go on-and-on!

Happy Sailing! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[sail7seas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by _I did not see a single tux in the dining room except for the staff people._
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You may not have noticed others in tuxedos but it would be the first cruise in modern day history of HAL that no male pax were wearing a tux.

As to "staff people".....MOST wear uniforms.


As to 90 degrees..... Thankfully, modern day ships are air conditioned.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[digby]

It seems that most of the posters who love to see the men in a tux are WOMEN! Of course they can arrive near naked from the boobs up while the men have several layers of cloth between their skin and the air -- tee shirt, white STARCHED shirt, silk tie, vest and finally a wool jacket! Try it! The obvious answer is to allow everyone to wear what they want to from resort casual to formal. No one will explain why what I wear should have any influence on how you enjoy yourself.

[sail7seas]

Ambience, Digby.....ambience; mood; setting; atmosphere.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[user8]

Sail,

I didn't believe it either but I didn't see anyone in a tux on the second formal night. As a result, I am seriously considering leaving the tux at home next month when we sail on the Rotterdam.

[Randyk47]

Oh well....to each his own. I'm taking my tux, it fits, the shirts fit and I like it. That's my call I guess. On informal nights I will wear a sports coat, shirt and tie. Again, that's my choice.

Until Galaxy
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[LizB1]

user8...if you are going on the Rotterdam next month either to or in Europe I am sure you will see many a gentleman in a tux. Those cruises are somewhat more formal than the Caribbean cruises most often. Hope you don't leave your tux at home!

[Lisa63]

I agree that formal does not have to be uncomfortable. For instance, I will often wear low-heeled shoes under my gown -- and I get clothing that fits properly.

I also agree that it is different for the gentlemen. Last year, we were on a ship that had four, consecutive formal nights. On the third night, DH contemplated wearing a suit instead of a tuxedo. He found the cumberbun to be uncomfortable. I suggested he omit it, and he was fine.

Our son's tuxedo, which we rented, came with a vest. That's a great alternative, and one that my husband is considering for himself.


Lisa63
Looking forward to Maasdam Canada/New England 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As has been written on this board a million (or more) times.....they can wear a pair of silk/satin evening pants and a beaded or jeweled or dressy top of some sort, put on a dressy shoe and maybe a pretty earring and they'd be dressed appropriately.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The HAL dress code says"On festive formal evenings women usually wear cocktail dresses or gowns..."So men must follow the suggested dress but the ladies can decide what is appropriate. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[sail7seas]

Slacks have become a regular part of a lady's wardrobe. Most people who live in North America are aware that women wear slacks in all sorts of settings today. There are yoga pants, there are jeans, there are fine garbadine, woolens, knits and, indeed, there are even lady's tuxedos. Ever watch Hollywood awards shows?

If the gents wish to wear cocktail dresses or gowns, I guess things could get a little wild. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Slacks have become a regular part of a lady's wardrobe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree..So let's have HAL update their dress code so it reflects what people really wear in the 21st. century.

[cruisinjudy]

S7S,
We did have a gentleman wearing a gown on formal night on Infinity last year. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ryansmemom]

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifGood Evening Everyone,

FYI: Here is a link to a site that will give you everything your ever wanted to know about the tuxedo. And probably some stuff you didn't want to know,too. However it is interesting. At least as we discuss this over and over again we will all be very well educated. It is interesting.

Tuxedo (http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.fashionmall.com/flusser%5Fbook/doc/ch3.htm)

Linda

Thanks for listening

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by annebill:
You are a man after my own heart, Superstein61. Do you think we two could start a trend ? Off hand, I don't know just where to find one but have seen them in various catalogs. I have also seen them in a Steinmart.The other thread seemed to be getting some terribly upset, so thought I'd try something in a lighter vein.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks !!! Not sure if we could start a trend, but I would love to try !!!

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OCruisers:
_Formal clothes do NOT have to be uncomfortable!!!!!_ http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Why people don't make absolutely sure their formal clothes _fit comfortably _ before going on a cruise is beyond me! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry - but my formal clothes can fit me perfectly, just like they are freshly tailored, and tha still doesn't make them comfortable.

Sorry, but no way you can tell me that wearing a tie, collared shirt and a jacket is more comfortable than an open necked shirt.

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by digby:
It seems that most of the posters who love to see the men in a tux are WOMEN! Of course they can arrive near naked from the boobs up while the men have several layers of cloth between their skin and the air -- tee shirt, white STARCHED shirt, silk tie, vest and finally a wool jacket! Try it! The obvious answer is to allow everyone to wear what they want to from resort casual to formal. No one will explain why what I wear should have any influence on how you enjoy yourself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed Digby, agreed. If some guys find a Tux comfortable, more power too them - but the majority do not. Notice how one of the ladies duck and ran from this question:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sail7seas:
Why is it asbsolutely mandatory that we always have to be extremely comfortable in our clothes?
-----------------------------------------------<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Spoken from someone who doesn't have to wear a necktie and coat in 90 degree weather.

And why should we be comfortable - c'mon, you've got to be kidding me. Do you harken back to the days of tight laced up corsets and huge hoop skirts for women?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[F5Loar]

It appears to me HAL has already "redefined" the true meaning of formal attire when they "lowered" their dress standards to include "a jacket and tie on formal night".
That's pretty wide open. Does not say tie must be tight so loose is fine. You can wear your favorite Rodney Dangerfield lime green houndstooth sport coat with your Ben Hogan yellow slacks and Rush Limbaugh tie and that will conform to the HAL Formal standards. No longer are the dark suits the expected alternate to the tux. It simply says "business suits" which means any color you can dream up.
What are you complaining about here? How much more can you redefine it? Do want to go naked on formal night?

http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=ff00ff&cdt=2003;07;19;13;00;00&timezone=GMT-0500
Till we sail on the Zuiderdam

Til we sail on the Mariner of The Seas RCL
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until we sail on the Disney Wonder
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til we sail the ms Maasdam
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[annebill]

Ladies, ladies! Why is it that you would deny men the same many options for dressy or formal that you enjoy? Would you be pleased if society INSISTED that only long hooped skirts would do for YOUR formal attire ? Would you?? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ron46936]

I don't recall now if I posted the question on the Princess board as a topic or as a reply to a thread similar to this one. I've not had success with the search function in finding it.
I will post the question again.

The Princess Brochure does refer to formal dress applying to dining rooms.

A few years ago President Clinton attended a conference of world leaders in the Phillipines. All the men dressed in guayaberra (sp) shirts.

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F5Loar:
You can wear your favorite Rodney Dangerfield lime green houndstooth sport coat with your Ben Hogan yellow slacks and Rush Limbaugh tie and that will conform to the HAL Formal standards.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good comination! LOl http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What about "casual"? On my last cruise we had a group with pajama looking bottoms of assorted colors and doo rags.

[Randyk47]

What a mess! Actually it makes me laugh a bit. Some folks don't like formal wear, some do. Playing with the definition is not the answer in my opinion. I guess if enough folks ignore the dress code then the cruise lines have two options. They can try to enforce the code and risk making all whole bunch of folks mad or they can modify the code much like it appears HAL has. Again, we like the formal nights, we like our formal wear and look where we live (San Antonio, TX) so we know about 90+ degree temperatures. If formal nights go away or are modified to the point where there are no formal nights then I guess we'll adjust. Right now we'll stay with tux and gown.

Until Galaxy
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[annebill]

Randyk, with all due respect, you miss the point. The question is: would you accept any other option for "formal" or dressy for men, just as we all accept the many options for women (even though some, but not me, don't like women in pants)? Would you ? I can't get you ladies to answer the basic question, which is NOT to do away with formal nights on HAL, as most of you seem to think.

[Randyk47]

No and no. I neither missed the point nor do I think there need be more options for "formal" than tux or dark business suit.

Until Galaxy
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[777steve]

Greetings all http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I know I can always get a giggle if I want to log on to CC and glance at the first page ... invariably there will be at least one thread that discusses dress. Sometimes, it's a quite innocent question from a new poster who wants to be sure they understand how best to "fit in". Sometimes it's from a pot-stirrer who seems intent on "convincing" someone that they should change their perspective.

This thread at least is not as mean-spirited as some have gotten. I've tried to stay away from those .. even though I have read some of the postings and felt - well sad. With all of the things that we could do to uplift one another and add some drops of kindness to a world that is a little messy, we've instead turned our attention and considerable energies to the time-honored questions: tuxedo or guayabera (we haven't even discussed a dressy jalaba as an alternative). Okay - I'm being a little sarcastic, but it does seem that this topic gets an undue amount of energy in light of the things on this planet that might actually matter in someone's life over the course of a 7/10/14 day vacation.

Personally, I'm a fan of wearing a tuxedo of some sort. A nice traditional black number works well for me. I'm a very conservative dresser in most respects and know how to buy clothes that fit well. Plus, for a few dollars, a decent tailor can make an off the rack purchase hang like the best of Hong Kong or Savile Row. My partner Philip on the other hand is an exotic creature. Being of Middle Eastern descent, he has the coloring and facial structure that allows him to wear things that would make many men blush - and looks outstanding in them. He looks elegant in a traditional tux - and completely at home in a guayabera - it suits him. More importantly, he dresses for his own perception of elegance and manages to pull it off flawlessly.

The point of that part of this little epistle is that he opts for elegance and uses his own interpretation. And it works for him. He is not being a "non-conformist" just for the sake of demanding his way - rather he finds a way to conform to the "setting" within his own comfort zone and personal interpretation. To that degree, he has already embodied the sense of what AnneBill seems to have been asking - the "nature" and component aspect of formal night could and perhaps should be broadened.

Perhaps the cruise lines could change the formal to elegant - maybe it's the use of the word formal that causes the problem. As a matter of intepretation, I find that suits more of what happens with the women now anyway. I think some of them look tunning in their slack and beaded top combinations. I would call that elegant - but not formal. After all - just look at the word .... anytime we apply formal to something we infer that there is a tightening of the structure - a prescribed set of instructions, words, rules, whatever to achive the end result.

It seems the goal of "formal night" was not and is not to make people miserable but rather to create a night of festive elegance that adds to the experience of the cruise. Perhaps it was always easier to intepret that in the "formal" vernacular. That was the language of dress for many people for many years. Time changes standards. Cultures blend. These are good things because everyone is broadened.

I agree that there many ways to interpret that wouldn't render the experience awkward or uncomfortable for anyone.

On a more direct note, so much has been said for so long about formal, semi-formal, office casual, etc - that anyone who moves in the world and leaves their home should have some basic understanding of what that implies. When we receive invitations to parties or go to clubs and events in our hometowns, we always (I presume) try to have some sense of the nature of the event so we can dress accordingly.

No one would argue that it would be churlish to accept an invitation to a holiday party that clearly suggests dressy attire and arrive in jeans.

The folks that insist that they be allowed to wear whatever they want anytime will not get an argument from me. I could care less. I have great fun getting gussied up and wandering around the different venues on the ship during formal nights. It's great fun for me .. and I like seeing all of the other interpretations around the ship.

Maybe the problem is a lack of vision. I had a wonderful piano teacher who was a master musician, a former Juilliard teacher who was noted for ability to bring out the best in students. Because of her reputation and my own need to excel I tried hard to use on the most excruciating correct technique. Sensing my difficulty with losing my love of the music itself in the sacrifice of the technique - she very lovingly pointed out a lesson to me that has served me well in many areas. Perhaps it applies here:

There is more than one road to Chicago.

And now I have to get back to the problem of world peace. Thanks for letting me share.

Cheers!

Steve in Houston
steve777@houston.rr.com

"Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!"

HAL Westerdam 12/12/2004

[ekerr19]

Trying to "redefine" HAL's version of formal...

hmmm, while I applaud the effort of getting different ideas out there, I do believe this is futile.

Why doesn't everyone just wear what they like? Sounds like most do anyway. Some prefer traditional formal, others - not so formal.

After all HAL's suggestions are guidelines. On formal night, "Women usually wear cocktail dresses or gowns" - but some posters say it's OK for women to wear dressy pants... not so, according to HAL's published dress code, "dresses or pantsuits" are for informal nights.

The double standard for men and women bothers me. My husband wears a tux on formal night. It fits well, his shirts are all proper size. They are lightly starched. He prefers to wear a vest (personal preference - not related to the condition of his abs). You will never convince me this outfit may not be too hot or uncomfortable - especially in humid weather. He wears it, doesn't complain - but does get upset when the temperature in the DR is high (especially during second seating), as it becomes very uncomfortable.

Several years ago, I purchased a lovely evening dress that had a beautiful short brocade jacket. I wore it only once. It stays in my closet... why? - it's too hot and uncomfortable.

At the end of the day - it does not matter to me in the least what a person at the next table is or isn't wearing. We try to observe the guidelines for dress because that's the way we are. Not everyone feels the same way.

But, for crying out loud, if we are going to complain about the men not following the dress code - ladies let's step up and admit we might be following it (to the exact letter) also.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[This message was edited by ekerr19 on 06-20-04 at 01:26 PM.]

[sail7seas]

Steve...... Magnificent. What a great post. Thank you.



ekerr..... Enjoyed yours, also. Where does a lady's tuxedo fit into the scheme of "are pants formal for women"? What about silk palazzo pants....a bit dressy with beaded jackets/tops for Informal Night??

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[ekerr19]

Sail-

I don't have a problem with pants for women. They can be quite dressy. I'm just trying to make a point about HAL's suggested guidelines regarding dress code.

The men continue to get blasted while many women "redefine" the dresscode to their own purpose. How often do we see women in actual gowns or cocktail dresses on formal night? Maybe about 35% of the time? Less?

Personally, I like to dress up. I don't get the occassion to do so often enough. I also understand those for whom it is a chore or think it unnecessary. It doesn't bother me when others don't observe the suggested dress of the evening. We all have different reasons for the choices we make.

I do think Steve's suggestion of "festive elegance" might be a better way to define the formal nights - I believe formal night was designed to add a festive, elegant touch to the evening. Somewhere along the way, "festive" has become replaced by "tacky". (Just my opinion, so for those of you who must flame, keep in mind it's just my opinion and probably a minority one.)

Also, great post Steve, thank you.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[sail7seas]

Yes....I do see your point and basically agree with it.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[gliles]

I think oddly I agree with everyone! I love to see DH in a tux but will admit that the dress that I wear isn't as comfortable as my casual wear, it probably isn't as uncomfortable as the tux but then again, he doesn't have to wear hose so it may be a wash. That said, I like to get dressed up since in our humble existance, we don't have many occasions to dress up. I don't know how DH really feels about it but he does't complain so I guess it's ok with him.

I also find that dressing like that in 90 degree weather isn't my preference but I find the inside of the ship unusually cool so that isn't a problem.

I also wonder about the person who posted that they were on a HAL ship and didn't see one man in a tux, I am truly amazed by that. I have only been on one HAL cruise thus far but have been on many NCL, a couple Carnival and even a Commodore and never experienced this and not just because my DH was in a tux either. Sometimes there weren't many in a tux but there were always some and IMHO, they were the best looking men in the dining room.

Oosterdam
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Husbands are like pancakes, you have to throw the first one out.

[annebill]

Friends, thanks for keeping this simple debate civil and friendly, though interesting. Just a way to spend a long summer (temp.-wise) weekend. Yes, certainly, there are so many issues of worldwide importance that, if we think about them, could make us ashamed to even be contemplating cruising. Count your blessings and share them.

[ekerr19]

Sail-

I agree with your point also. I'd love to see HAL change the formal night attire to include dressy pants for women. I love Palazzo pants and they can be quite comfortable as well as stylish and elegant. I have worn them on formal night in the Caribbean. On the Zuiderdam, most wore resort casual, which I also think is fine. I think the climate dictated what most people wore.

I'm afraid that opening the door to pants for women on formal night may result in "formal" going by the wayside altogether.

There are those out there who would like to see that happen, no doubt. I happen to enjoy getting dressed up, and I enjoy seeing others dressed in their festive attire. To me, it adds an elegant atmosphere to cruising in general. That is why he have continued to sail with HAL.

What I don't like, however are the photo-ops at every turn. When we first started cruising, there were one or two venues where one could have photos taken if they wished. Now there is a photo session at every turn, long lines for pictures most people don't bother purchasing. This definitely detracts from the formal, festive ambiance. It seems to me, HAL has conceded to commercialism and I don't care for it. Again, just my opinion.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[ASM]

I see your point also and have no problem with nontraditional formal wear for men, if it indeed is as elegant as a tuxedo. BTW, I don't wear pants or short dresses on formal nights--just long gowns that pack easily-no ballgowns for me.

[OCruisers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by superstein61:

Sorry, but no way you can tell me that wearing a tie, collared shirt and a jacket is more comfortable than an open necked shirt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Superstein61 .... You are absolutely right! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif My DH says I should have said that he was "NOT Uncomfortable on Formal Nights"... instead of "As Comfortable as Casual Nights".

Guess I overstated my case! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif It's just that I've seen sooooooooooo many people (both sexes)who
bring clothes on a cruise that are too snug and shoes (women on the shoes) that are too small!
Like anyone thinks he's not going to gain a few pounds on a cruise. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

OK ... Here I go with another that's a bit overstated ........ My DH always says in jest that he wishes EVERY night would be FORMAL night so all he'd have to pack would be his tux and and bathing suit! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Happy Sailing! OCruisers http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[OCruisers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by superstein61:

Sorry, but no way you can tell me that wearing a tie, collared shirt and a jacket is more comfortable than an open necked shirt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Superstein61 .... You are absolutely right! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif My DH says I should have said that he was "NOT Uncomfortable on Formal Nights"... instead of "As Comfortable as Casual Nights".

Guess I overstated my case! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif It's just that I've seen sooooooooooo many people (both sexes)who
bring clothes on a cruise that are too snug and shoes (women on the shoes) that are too small!
Like anyone thinks he's not going to gain a few pounds on a cruise. http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

OK ... Here I go with another that's a bit overstated ........ My DH always says in jest that he wishes EVERY night would be FORMAL night so all he'd have to pack would be his tux and and bathing suit! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Happy Sailing! OCruisers http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[annebill]

ASM, do you ever do the "Standpipe Stomp" on a HAL cruise ? http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[777steve]

Thanks Sail7, ekerr, et al... for your kind words. And my apologies to all who had to read through my rather lackadaisical typing skills. I was brain dumping and in a hurry to get to my office. So, in spite of being trained on proper technique http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, I ommitted or added some letters, adjectives, conjunctions, prespositions - you get my drift.

Perhaps I was typing in my informal mode?
http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Cheers all!

Steve in Houston
steve777@houston.rr.com

"Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!"

HAL Westerdam 12/12/2004

[ASM]

annebill--so where in the Carolinas do YOU live?

[annebill]

ASM, SC midlands.

[Spender Nui]

I've had several tuxes over the past 30 years. I needed them for both business and social functions and would wear them 10 - 12 times a year exclusive of cruising. I NEVER enjoyed it. Of course I always took one when we cruised. Lately it's more of a nuisance than ever ... and never has been an "I feel good". Now with all the airline restrictions it's worse than ever. On our past few cruises I've started taking a dark suit. To reduce luggage I've been able to have the the jacket double as a sport coat for informal nights. We found it interesting that on our last Rotterdam cruise the book in the cabin defined formal dress as jacket and tie for men, tux optional.

[superstein61]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OCruisers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by superstein61:

Sorry, but no way you can tell me that wearing a tie, collared shirt and a jacket is more comfortable than an open necked shirt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

_Superstein61 .... _ You are absolutely right! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif My DH says I should have said that he was _"NOT Uncomfortable on Formal Nights"_... instead of "As Comfortable as Casual Nights".

Guess I overstated my case! http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem - thanks for clarifying it OCruisers !!!!!

[abrowncow]

for us it's not that the clothes are uncomfortable it's that they take up so much room in our luggage!

especially travelling with a 2 year old... i need all the space i can get! all the added child paraphenalia makes it hard to carry an extra bag just for suits/dresses/etc.

[hotspur]

The real issue is: What justifies the "request" for formalwear on a HAL ship? And the answer is: Nothing. Elegant, special events merit formalwear. Like opening night at the Met. Or New Year's Eve at the Vienna State Opera. There is nothing that fits that description on a HAL ship. Not even remotely. Formal nights are simply contrived affairs, and people who are accustomed to special, elegant events, see right through the HAL charade.

As ekerr19 so crisply pointed out above, formal nights are simply an excuse for HAL to shove photo-ops in your face all night long. It was embarrassing to watch this go on, and extremely annoying. A cattle call, at best.

There's nothing that occurs on a HAL ship where khakis and a sports shirt wouldn't be appropriate dress. That attire is good enough for HAL four nights each week, so what is there different on the other three nights that requires guests to "play dress-up?" Absolutely nothing.

[F5Loar]

Wow Hotspur, I can sure tell you've never sailed on the Titantic!
I don't think they had photo ops around the ship on the Titantic yet there seemed to be no problem in getting the first classers to dress up for the formal nights. It's a cruise tradition and because people like you and many others think it shouldn't be a tradition the cruise lines have changed to accomadate those that choose not to participate on formal nights and it's called alternate dining elsewhere which they provide for you. This is so you won't embarss others of your unwillingness to conform to the traditions of cruising that others enjoy. You can do your own thing and everyone is happy!
As funny as it may seem to you the formal cruise portait with your faces in burnt red has become a tradition on the modern cruise and people buy them.

[RevNeal]

for us it's not that the clothes are uncomfortable it's that they take up so much room in our luggage!

I find myself in agreement on this point. As a guy who is "larger than average" :) suits and shirts and, frankly, clothing in general take up significantly more space than it does for your averaged sized, or smaller, men. For instance, one of my suits takes up half-again as much space as one of Christopher's suits. Hence, it becomes a REAL issue to pack extra suits.

For formal and informal nights on a cruise of 14+ days I generally take my single-breasted tux, my cream/white dinner jacket, 1 tux shirt and an assortment of bow ties, vests, cummerbuns, and related articles; 1 dark suit, 1 white dress shirt and 2 ties, 1 black clergy shirt and a neckband ("dog") collar, black dress shoes. Since I wear a pair of dark-grey slacks, blue dress shirt, and a black jacket in transit to the port of departure, I don't have to pack that for informal nights ... and that's a GOOD thing, because the above just about maxes out my garmet bag. Oh, I can fit in a couple pair of slacks and a couple extra shirts, plus assorted undies and such stuffed into corners, but that's about it. My other suitcase has to handle the rest of my clothing and various articles ... and that's not little either (my stuff always takes half-again as much room as Chris' ... but he's a thin guy, I'm not).

So ... to put it simply ... the only "down side" for me relative to formal nights is the SPACE in the luggage that the formal gear requires. However, I've always made it ... and under the weight limit, too ... so I suppose I'm doing well. :)

As for WHY I do it ... that's easy: I LIKE doing it ... contrived though the formal nights on a cruise may be, I don't care ... I enjoy them nevertheless. Apart from cruises there are, maybe, 3 nights a year when I get to wear my tux ... so shoot me if I want to wear it on formal nights on a cruise. I don't care. :D

[superstein61]

The real issue is: What justifies the "request" for formalwear on a HAL ship? And the answer is: Nothing. . . . . Formal nights are simply contrived affairs, and people who are accustomed to special, elegant events, see right through the HAL charade.

. . .formal nights are simply an excuse for HAL to shove photo-ops in your face all night long. It was embarrassing to watch this go on, and extremely annoying. A cattle call, at best.



Agreed Hotspur, agreed !!! It is contrived and it is done by the cruise lines to try and suck more dollars out of their pax pockets. Plain and simple.

Well they are not getting be sucked in to this silly game any more. No formalware for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[superstein61]

This is so you won't embarss others of your unwillingness to conform to the traditions of cruising that others enjoy. You can do your own thing and everyone is happy!


Darn right I am gonna do my thing !!!!! And don't worry about being embarassed by getting sucked in hook, line and sinker by this silly money making scheme. I won't be laughing too hard at you - at least for that

[superstein61]

contrived though the formal nights on a cruise may be, I don't care ... I enjoy them nevertheless. Apart from cruises there are, maybe, 3 nights a year when I get to wear my tux ... so shoot me if I want to wear it on formal nights on a cruise. I don't care. :D

Thank you Rev for being able to admit formal nights are contrived - unlike some other formal proponents. And I won't shoot you for wearing your formal wear - just don't shoot others when they do not.

As you noted - you do so because you "Like It". Others don't because they "don't like it".

We should both be able to coexist - you in your formal wear, me in my casual wear - all in the same restaurant and on the same ship.

[Sailure]

Would you be broadminded enough to accept "alternative formal" in the dining room ?
Would "alternative formal" be something that a person who is not an American would wear at their formal gatherings in their own country? Traditional Formal dress in China, Pakistan, Bali or other countries and even Hawaii isn't the same as in the lower 48.

[sail7seas]

superstein......I mean nothing sarcastic or flip about this question, but I wonder what is it that you DO like about cruising and cruising HAL in particular. I may be mistaken but it seems that in a number of posts lately you have appeared to be negative about the liquor policy, itinerary changes, formal wear, cruiselines suckering pax and trying to pick their pockets...I forget what else.

Sure, none of us like Everything about HAL but I think most of us like most things about HAL or we would not be cruising them and would not be on this board talking about cruising them......unless one comes here only to rip cruiselines (HAL) apart.

Again, I mean nothing sarcastic but I am very curious why you spend your vacation dollars with a company with which you seem to have many issues.

Happy cruising.

[hotspur]

Anyone care to wager that HAL gets a cut of the tuxedo rentals from the rental company? Money-making scam--that's all it is.

Superstein is right. If playing dress-up floats your boat, then do it--and buy all the overpriced pics you'd like and make believe you're a Vanderbilt for a night. Allow those who think the formal shtick makes no sense to pass on the unnecessary black-tie.

[gizmo]

We should both be able to coexist - you in your formal wear, me in my casual wear - all in the same restaurant and on the same ship.
I can't agree with this. Casual and formal mixed in the same restaurant? No way in my book.

[sail7seas]

Ditto....

IMO, formal and casual cannot co-exist at all in the same restaurant at the same time.

It should be one or the other and whichever is chosen by HAL should be announced and enforced IMO

I think far more men who wear a tuxedo on the ships bring their own rather than rent. Some rent but certainly do not have to if they do not wish to.

[superstein61]

superstein......I mean nothing sarcastic or flip about this question, but I wonder what is it that you DO like about cruising and cruising HAL in particular. I may be mistaken but it seems that in a number of posts lately you have appeared to be negative about the liquor policy, itinerary changes, formal wear, cruiselines suckering pax and trying to pick their pockets...I forget what else.

Sure, none of us like Everything about HAL but I think most of us like most things about HAL or we would not be cruising them and would not be on this board talking about cruising them......unless one comes here only to rip cruiselines (HAL) apart.

Again, I mean nothing sarcastic but I am very curious why you spend your vacation dollars with a company with which you seem to have many issues.

Happy cruising.

Sail7seas - Just because one is not a cheerleader for HAL (as IMO you are - and I don't say that in a mean manner - just expressing my opinion from your posts) does not mean one cannot enjoy cruising.

I have cruised on HAL, NCL and Disney - and I can tell you good and bad points about them all. I happen to be a very objective person - and like to look at the good and the bad when I read a review, etc. So I try to express both opinions here - good and bad. However, since we have so many people postings positives, sometimes the negatives seem to stick out more.

As far as specific issues:

1. Liquor policy - I liked HALs old policy. I disagree with their new policy. However, most cruise lines are similiar now - so it really doesn't matter if I cruise HAL or XYZ line in this regard

2. Formal Wear - I dislike formal nights - plain and simple - but I will not be shunned to the Lido buffet. Until HAL offers a real alternative like NCL, I will continue to argue this point and not conform. NCL does this best IMO

3. Cruiselines suckering pax and trying to pick their pockets - I call it like it is. And this just isn't HAL but other lines as well. Formal nights are simply a way for the cruise line to separate more $$$ from its passengers pockets. As are restrictions on bringing alchol on board for personal consumption.

Now - since it appears you have read so many of my posts - you should know that when someone asks how HAL compares to XYZ line - I can provide some differences - but in general, most lines are pretty similiar. Which is why I have stated several times that now, I choose my cruise based on price and itinerary. Which thus brings me to my last item:


4. Itinerary - This one HAL is dead wrong !!!!! No one, even the most devoted HAL cheerleader, can make excuses for them. They have been and continue to advertise the Eastern Carribbean Zuiderdam route spending Tuesday in St Thoma from 8am til 11pm. However on their 7 most recent (or soon to occur) sailings, this has not been the case. They have gone to Tortola on Tuesday (leaving at 5) and cut the time on St Thomas in half on Wednesdady by leaving at 5 instead of 11. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE - especially for someone like me who chose to book this particular cruise based on that itinerary. To me HAL is committing plain BAIT & SWITCH - . I can understand port changes due to weather. BUT this has been ongoing - and HAL still is misadvertising this cruise today.

Again, unlike some folks here - I look at things objectively. If people want to simply post reviews and comments blinded by rose colored glasses, they can do so - but IMO those posts are not only not helpful - they can be detrimental.

Lets discuss the good and the bad . Maybe some folks will learn something

[superstein61]

I can't agree with this. Casual and formal mixed in the same restaurant? No way in my book.

Oh the horror - having to sit next to someone in Khaki's and a nice shirt. How would you ever get over the shock of this ??????

I would be devastated

[superstein61]

Ditto....

IMO, formal and casual cannot co-exist at all in the same restaurant at the same time.



Oh please - cannot co-exist????? What is it with some of you??? We are all individuals - just because someone dresses differently, you can't co-exist with them????

Can you co-exist with someone who has a different skin color? How about a different religion? Comes from a different part of the country? A different accent???

You can't co-exist with someone who wears different clothes than you do ???? Sorry - but that one just plain takes the cake

[jhannah]

Here we are again ... getting nowhere. Maybe it's time to just let this thread die. Those who are die-hard non-conformists and just don't get the picture will be that way from here to eternity. As for me, I think much differently, and I can't see my perspective changing anytime soon either. So ... we must agree to disagree and move on, IMO.

[superstein61]

Here we are again ... getting nowhere. Maybe it's time to just let this thread die. Those who are die-hard non-conformists and just don't get the picture will be that way from here to eternity. As for me, I think much differently, and I can't see my perspective changing anytime soon either. So ... we must agree to disagree and move on, IMO.

Yes - and those who are die hard , toe the line, fall into the crusieline money making formal night scheme , conformists just don't get the picture and will be that way from here to eternity as well :)

[sail7seas]

DH and I dressing formal does not have HAL picking our pockets. In what way does it cost us money to enjoy dressing to the requested dress code? DH owns several tuxedos and dinner jackets. It costs him nothing more to pack a tuxedo vs. another pair of khakis and more jerseys. I costs me nothing to pack a formal dress rather than another pair of slacks.


Ambience.....when you show up in dockers and a golf shirt on formal night, you just may be willing to admit that you "stick out" and effect MY enjoyment of the ambience and setting.

HAL goes to a great deal of expense and work to design and construct elegant dining rooms and the stewards go to much work to polish and shine the crystal and silver and set tables so beautifully.

I want to enjoy the mood and the setting and I enjoy seeing people who have taken a bit of pride and effort in their appearance and consideration for those around them to enhance the ambience and partake of the festivity of the evening.

Why should they change the tradition of formal evenings because some of you have decided you do not wish to participate. The majority of us do want it and it is part of what we look for on a cruise vacation vs. flopped at some joint on the beach.

[RevNeal]

Thank you Rev for being able to admit formal nights are contrived - unlike some other formal proponents.

I agreed -- a month or more ago -- that formal nights are contrived. Guess what ... they are ALL contrived. EVERYWHERE. From Cruises to weddings to the opening night at the Symphony and Presidential Inaugural Balls. They're ALL contrived. Every last one of them. Does their being contrived mean that people should NOT "dress to the occasion." In my opinion, no. The occasion's being contrived is entirely beside the point. If one doesn't want to dress for a formal occasion, that is (of course) that person's business. And, if the Host doesn't allow it that is the Host's business. And, I have seen Hosts (in this case, HAL) not allow it.

And I won't shoot you for wearing your formal wear - just don't shoot others when they do not.

Just because I like to see people dressed formally -- in nice suits, ties, tuxes, dresses, etc. -- doesn't mean that I'm going to shoot those who stick out like sore thumbs because they're dressed in dockers and polo shirts on formal nights.

As for yourself, you've admitted you'll just be laughing (even if not too hard) at those of us who are stupid enough to get "suckered into" having the cash flow out of our pockets. Except ... wait ... there's only ONE way that formal night results in our having cash sucked out of our pockets, and that's if we BUY the photos they take of us. It IS possible to wear a tux on formal night and not buy ANY silly photos, you know.

But even if one does buy photos -- and not all of them are taken on formal night -- is there a fundamental problem with this? Some of the best "formal" portrates of my parents that I have were taken on cruise ships. I'm very thankful for those photos; if it were not for them I might not have any nice photos from these years by which to remember my parents.

[hotspur]

We cruise to go places. A cruise ship is a convenient way to see many places while staying in one bed and unpacking only once. The food, shipboard events, etc., on mass market cruise lines like HAL are just fine for this kind of trip, but they are, frankly, nothing special. And, unlike some here, we really don't care whether someone wears white gloves while escorting us to our cabin, or puts a tablecloth on our veranda table for room service, or gives us a glass of champagne at sailaway, or calls us "massah" while making our beds.

All that stuff is unnecessary frippery. Our vacation is not affected in the least by such trivia. We could not care less about dining with the captain, or knowing the hotel manager, and so on. We don't understand why anyone would care. Perhaps it makes them feel important, or some such thing involving status or ego. ("Ah yes, how delightful that our good friend Captain Van Der Zingus will be aboard during our next cruise.")

So all the talk here about "my Maasdam," and how wonderful everything about HAL is, just gives us cause for the roll-eyes emoticon. No one wears formalwear on a bus tour of Europe, and a cruise is a bus tour on water, with perhaps a bit more evening entertainment. Sorry, folks.

On every mass market cruise line we've sailed, the food, entertainment, service, etc., have been acceptable, but nowhere near exceptional. So, when I point this out, I'm not "ripping HAL," I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. Cruising is a nice way to travel, but it does not turn you into Gatsby. You're not in a Fifth Avenue salon party with Cole Porter tickling the keyboard. You're on a bargain-priced cruise with a bunch of people wearing rented formalwear. If some here get a kick out of thinking they're really experiencing the Gatsby lifestyle, then bully for them. Dress to the hilt. But for HAL--or any mass market cruise line--to require the rest of us to play this masquerade just to please those who enjoy making-believe, is simply silly.

[RevNeal]

superstein, sail7seas asked you a very simple question:

I wonder what is it that you DO like about cruising and cruising HAL in particular.

Your response, in post #80, was almost nothing but a catalog of negative gripes about HAL combined with boastings about how "objective" you are. I'm sorry, but that wasn't what s7s was asking. Nor is it what I'm asking. What is it that you LIKE about cruising, and about HAL in particular, that causes you to be a repeat cruiser? We know what you don't like -- and, especially, what you don't like about HAL -- you've hosed us down with your dislikes for quite a while, now. But what do you LIKE about HAL and about cruising? ANYTHING? Right now, based upon everything that I've read from you, it sounds like you really don't like much about the line at all.

[RevNeal]

So, when I point this out, I'm not "ripping HAL," I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.

You are offering your opinion of the situation.

[temple10]

I will be a first time crusier in December on the Statendam, So I have not experienced the dress codes yet to really agree or disagree. But....... I am looking forward to a couple formal nights. What I don't understand the purpose of is the nights between Formal and Casual Ok formal is Tuxedos and gowns (understand) Casual is blue jeans, shorts, tee-shirts (again understand) now this catagory between the two Non-formal nights but you can't wear blue jeans tee-shirts- you must wear Dinner Jackets ,slacks, for men and nice dresses, pant suites for woman is getting a bit out of hand. maybe some of you can explain this to me and I would understand it all a bit better.:rolleyes:

[sail7seas]

hotspur....I assure you it is not your unique experience to have done bus tours through Europe. Indeed, hundreds of thousands (no...probably millions) of folks have done them ahead of you and will do them long after you are done traveling in that style. Including me and my DH........


Just because you do not understand or appreciate what someone else enjoys in their vacation is no reason for you to dictate they are wrong in their enjoyment and only you know what is valuable and enjoyable. Whether I jest about Maasdam being "mine" is probably beyond your comprehension.....so what?!! You do not have to understand. No one does, quite frankly. My DH and I have had such remarkably wonderful times and treasure such memories of time spend together and with dear friends on that ship.....you CANNOT understand it. I do not wish to share it with you. I shall hold it to myself to treasure.

Whether I enjoy seeing crew friends aboard a ship should be of no consequence or bother to you if it is something you find of no interest. These friends of ours are as important to us as friends who live down our street and around the corner from us. These are people we would want as our friends no matter where they lived/where we lived. They just happen to work on ships and spend a great deal of time there.

We go to the ships to visit them the same as we might travel to another state to visit with an old college friend. I would wish to have dinner or drinks or a casual chat with any of my friends any where we both were present. If it happens to be our friends are on a ship and that is where we see them...then, most assuredly, we wish to have drinks and dinner with them. We have had drinks and dinner with them in shore side restaurants/hotels as well.

Whether you understand that or not does not matter. It DOES matter that you be respectful of others' choices...different as they may from yours. I am unaware of ever being disrespectful to you and your choices and preferences; I expect the same courtesy in return.

[RevNeal]

This guideline will work for men in the evenings.

Formal -- coat and tie, Tux or dark suit preferred.
Informal -- coat but tie is optional.
Casual -- NO coat, wear slacks (no jeans), nice shirts (polo, print, knit, silk, etc).

In other words, the difference between casual evening and informal evening is the wearing of a coat with your slacks and nice shirt. The difference between informal and formal is the wearing of a tie with your slacks, nice shirt, and coat. This is the basic minimum as distilled from the posted HAL dress code. Others will have differing opinions. Those are opinions. The above is not.

As for women ... you'll have to ask someone else, that's out of my department. :)

[flatwallet]

Assuming that you are inquiring about the "dress codes" for the evening meal in the dining room.
Here's what DW and I have decided what WE want to wear.
For formal nights, Ladies-gowns, dress or such, Men, Tuxedo or a suit..perhaps dark.

For semiformal, Ladies-dress, gown or maybe nice pants suit..Men, Sport or suit coat and slacks.

For casual, Ladies-dress, pants suit, slacks and blouse and for men a shirt and slacks.
It seems that there many opinions on this subject.

[sail7seas]

For the ladies:


Casual: comfortable, relaxed clothing but No t-shirts, jeans, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are allowed in the dining room, Lido restaurant or public areas during the evening hours. (Personally, the same things I wear for informal night is what I wear for casual. I wear pantsuits, silk slax with silk tops/big shirts with tanks...that sort of thing. Perhaps a long sundress with short sleeve campshirt type matching blouse over it for a Caribbean evening.....)

Informal: dresses or pantsuits for the ladies

Formal: Women usually wear cocktail dresses or gowns.,

[stillfrantic]

I got a fun cumberbund and bow tie set for my husband for one of the nights. Has martini glasses and such on it. More fun than his plain black. He also has a vest with the tuxedo.

That tux was one of the smartest purchases he ever made. Got it shortly after we were married and has been wearing it since. It has been loaned to friend's children for proms and I guess my own will wear it sometime soon.

I think one of my formal night dresses will be long and sleek; the other short and beaded. I hope those both fit the apropriate definition.

I do see where the origional posts were made concerning an alternative for formal for men as women do have more options. In other cultures it does exist, but I don't see it happening antime soon in our culture.

[ryansmemom]

hotspur....I assure you it is not your unique experience to have done bus tours through Europe. Indeed, hundreds of thousands (no...probably millions) of folks have done them ahead of you and will do them long after you are done traveling in that style. Including me and my DH........


Just because you do not understand or appreciate what someone else enjoys in their vacation is no reason for you to dictate they are wrong in their enjoyment and only you know what is valuable and enjoyable. Whether I jest about Maasdam being "mine" is probably beyond your comprehension.....so what?!! You do not have to understand. No one does, quite frankly. My DH and I have had such remarkably wonderful times and treasure such memories of time spend together and with dear friends on that ship.....you CANNOT understand it. I do not wish to share it with you. I shall hold it to myself to treasure.

Whether I enjoy seeing crew friends aboard a ship should be of no consequence or bother to you if it is something you find of no interest. These friends of ours are as important to us as friends who live down our street and around the corner from us. These are people we would want as our friends no matter where they lived/where we lived. They just happen to work on ships and spend a great deal of time there.

We go to the ships to visit them the same as we might travel to another state to visit with an old college friend. I would wish to have dinner or drinks or a casual chat with any of my friends any where we both were present. If it happens to be our friends are on a ship and that is where we see them...then, most assuredly, we wish to have drinks and dinner with them. We have had drinks and dinner with them in shore side restaurants/hotels as well.

Whether you understand that or not does not matter. It DOES matter that you be respectful of others' choices...different as they may from yours. I am unaware of ever being disrespectful to you and your choices and preferences; I expect the same courtesy in return.


S7S,

Brava!! Well said.

Thank you for sharing your feelings so elequently.

Linda :)

[hotspur]

You are offering your opinion of the situation.

Look, Reverend, you can't really be trying to tell us there's something "special," or "elegant," or "classy," or remotely "formal" about a singer whose shtick is imitating Neal Diamond or Engelbert Humperdinck, or an unknown juggler/comic, or ten twenty-somethings singing and dancing on a small stage for little money hoping for a break. You really aren't trying to make us think the mass-produced food on HAL, prepared for and served to 500-900 at one time, is really fine cuisine. Are you? If so, you really do need to step back and recognize the reality of the situation.

I'd bet nearly every passenger on HAL--and all the other budget-priced cruise lines as well--wouldn't cross the street at home to see the quality of entertainment provided on a cruise ship. The food, at best, is Outback quality. Surely no threat to the Four Seasons. And a cut below a typical Roman trattoria or Parisian bistro.

We enjoyed our week on the Maasdam, and saw some interesting things at a few of the ports--despite the complete absence of substantive port information available from the ship. We'd do it again. But don't try telling us it was some kind of grand, elegant, once-in-a-lifetime experience. And especially that it merits wearing black-tie. It's NCL with flowers, only NCL, at least, has adopted a realistic attitude toward dress.

[F5Loar]

Yes NCL and Princess have changed to meet the times in allowing you to choose when and how you dress when dining but hasen't HAL, Carnival,RCL,etc. also done the same by opening the Lido up at dinner time for those that want to pick their time and dress code? What's the difference?
There was a time in the not too distant past that ships only had one place to dine in the evening. Today there are many choices including room service.
On HAL you can stay in your stateroom naked and order from the same menu as those that choose to dress up.
On NCL and Princess when you dress casual you dine with like kind, you dress formal you dine with other formally dressed guest so even they don't mingle the formal with the nonformal. Why should you expect HAL and others to allow improperly dressed guest to dine with those that are following the codes by their own choice? We wouldn't be having this discussion if those that choose to not adhere to the formal thing would just following the guidelines and eat elsewhere, just like on NCL and Princess. Some have even stated here the food is hotter, fresher, and better prepared on the Lido at dinner time. I wouldn't know, I like playing dress up and dine with the other 90% that like to dress up also.

[dmyles1]

You know, they don't make "white dinner jackets" anymore, except if you want to pay $600.00. So i went on Ebay, typed in "white dinner jacket" and found the TUXXMAN. For $99.95 plus $10.00 shipping, i was sent a great white dinner jacket just right for cruising. I now alternate my white dinner jacket with my Tux,, and i am right in style and don't mind if i do say so, i am a great looking "Bond, James Bond".. Have fun on formal nights,!

[F5Loar]

ebay is a great source. I've gotten whole tux outfits for under $50 or the cost of a good pair of "casual" pants. I've never thought the "to dress up" or "not to dress up" continuing saga has been over a money issue. It's principle to those that don't want to. They've got the money to wear the finest. And they could rent too!
Once you get the notion that "I'm on vacation so I will do as I please" or the "formal nights is a money making sham for the ship line" attitude you couldn't give a tux free to them to wear on formal nights. Sad but true.
I know it's silly we talk about a small percentage of the folks that don't follow the suggested dress codes but it sure makes for fun here! Even poor Saddam knew to put on a nice coat and clean shirt for his first court appearence (I guess to impress the judge as he knew to do it without legal advice) If the meanest, most inhuman man on the planet today knew he should dress for success you would think a few modern day cruisers would do the same.
I see formal nights coming to a new change in cruise lines. It will be by invitation only one night a week in a private club room with the Captain at the head table. Everyone will get lobsters(whole ones),caviar, escargo,prime ribs an inch thick and tossed at your table casear salads while the casual crowd eating in the main dinning room mess hall will get their tough bottom round sirlon steaks cooked extra well with a spoon of the chef's mashed potato and a side salad of iceberg lettace drowned in Ranch dressing. And all will be happy!

[sail7seas]

;) Can I dine where you're eating? I like the sound of the first menu.....I promise we'll put on our best formal wear.....Can we dine with you? Please :)

[ryansmemom]

Look, Reverend, you can't really be trying to tell us there's something "special," or "elegant," or "classy," or remotely "formal" about a singer whose shtick is imitating Neal Diamond or Engelbert Humperdinck, or an unknown juggler/comic, or ten twenty-somethings singing and dancing on a small stage for little money hoping for a break. You really aren't trying to make us think the mass-produced food on HAL, prepared for and served to 500-900 at one time, is really fine cuisine. Are you? If so, you really do need to step back and recognize the reality of the situation.

I'd bet nearly every passenger on HAL--and all the other budget-priced cruise lines as well--wouldn't cross the street at home to see the quality of entertainment provided on a cruise ship. The food, at best, is Outback quality. Surely no threat to the Four Seasons. And a cut below a typical Roman trattoria or Parisian bistro.

We enjoyed our week on the Maasdam, and saw some interesting things at a few of the ports--despite the complete absence of substantive port information available from the ship. We'd do it again. But don't try telling us it was some kind of grand, elegant, once-in-a-lifetime experience. And especially that it merits wearing black-tie. It's NCL with flowers, only NCL, at least, has adopted a realistic attitude toward dress.

Hotspur,

Please be patient with me. I will admit I find your style a bit intimidating and I don't want to feel attacked. So please take this in the spirit in which it is intended. it is a question for information only.

Let's just, for argument's sake say you are 100% correct. I don't think you are. None of us is ever 100% correct. But this is just for the purpose of this discussion. Please help me understand why you seem to feel the need to burst whatever "fantasies" (in your opinion) your fellow cruisers have that make their cruises so enjoyable for them?

They pay their way like everyone else. They make their choices based on whatever criteria is important to them. If in your opinion, they are being duped, so what? We all talk about personal freedom. You seem to cherish your right to have and express your point of view. And, rightly so, become upset when someone challenges your right to do so or demeans that view.

My question is, help me understand why it seems, for today at least, you seem to be having difficulty extending that courtesy to others?

Just a question. No flames please.

Linda

[bitburgk9handler]

don't dress, they probably wear their basebakll caps inside at the table. I am quite sure their parents did not teach them that!!!! Why is it so offensive to some people to get dressed??? I know, they are on vacation, But, there are alternatives. Buffets, in room dining etc.where's my asbestos suit? illegitimi non carborundum

[annebill]

This discussion has gotten far afield from the original question, which was would some other definition of formal ever be acceptable. It was not whether or not to do away with "formal" or "dressy". Ladies, how would you like to have little choice in what was considered proper ? What if you HAD to wear a buttoned up shirt, tie, and COAT on EVERY dressy occasion? Do you think someone might come up with sleeveless or strapless dresses or gowns in order to be more comfortable? Lightweight fabrics for coolness ? Would you like to have no choice but to dress as every other female---little or no individuality? Would you like your color choices to be limited to black, gray, or navy blue in order to be considered "properly dressed"? Would you like to have to put in studs and cufflinks every time you put on a "dressy" blouse ?(That's probably easier than hooking up all those hooks in the back, come to think of it).

Those thoughts just go through my mind any time I struggle into my tux. I suppose poor males will continue to be herded around in their chokers and drap suits and tuxs until enough of us say "NO MORE. GIVE US CHOICES JUST AS WOMEN HAVE". Uh oh, here comes my wi............

[ryansmemom]

This discussion has gotten far afield from the original question, which was would some other definition of formal ever be acceptable. It was not whether or not to do away with "formal" or "dressy". Ladies, how would you like to have little choice in what was considered proper ? What if you HAD to wear a buttoned up shirt, tie, and COAT on EVERY dressy occasion? Do you think someone might come up with sleeveless or strapless dresses or gowns in order to be more comfortable? Lightweight fabrics for coolness ? Would you like to have no choice but to dress as every other female---little or no individuality? Would you like your color choices to be limited to black, gray, or navy blue in order to be considered "properly dressed"? Would you like to have to put in studs and cufflinks every time you put on a "dressy" blouse ?(That's probably easier than hooking up all those hooks in the back, come to think of it).

Those thoughts just go through my mind any time I struggle into my tux. I suppose poor males will continue to be herded around in their chokers and drap suits and tuxs until enough of us say "NO MORE. GIVE US CHOICES JUST AS WOMEN HAVE". Uh oh, here comes my wi............

Several years ago, Rita Rudner addressed this very issue in her stand up comedy act on an HBO special. I don't remember the details but in a nutshell she said something like this.


Women are scared to death that they will attend a formal affair and see another woman wearing the same gown. They shop endlessly. The men have it easy. All they have to do is put on a tux. That way they don't have to worry that they made a mistake.

I've just paraphrased her monologue. She said it much better than I and it was much funnier. I hope you get the idea anyway.

However, fashions do change. In the past, men used to dress in a much more colorful, lively fashion. In other cultures, they do as well. In nature, quite often it is the male of the species who is more colorfully adorned.

Here's a challenge to the men who want to be more festive and are tired of drab. Look to history and other cultures. Nehru jackets? Caftans? Formal caveman ala Fred Flintstone? Tights and doublets anyone? Ruffled shirts and capes?

And ladies, how about bringing back the bustle and crinoline? How about ruff collars and sleeves? Those wide things Queen Elizabeth I and Marie Antionette wore under thier dresses? Come on ladies even if we just wear our strapless bras we can be as uncomfortable as the men. It's the least we can do.

Lets make these out of breathable, lightweight fabrics and new fashionable pastels with lots of bling? Sequins! beads! Crystals! All sorts of shiny things!!

Sound like fun??

Give me a break it's Saturday night and this is on topic! :D :D :D :D

Linda

[RevNeal]

Look, Reverend, you can't really be trying to tell us...

My, what an attitude! I'm really intimidated! :eek: </sarcasm>

In all seriousness, hotspur, I'm not trying to tell you anything of the sort. Indeed, my intention was clear: you were expressing your opinion, not pure, unvarnished "reality." If you don't like that tiny bit of corrective qualification, I'm very sorry.

[RevNeal]

dmyles1,

You know, they don't make "white dinner jackets" anymore, except if you want to pay $600.00.

You are correct that ebay is an excellent place to shop for items. I've bought a couple of really nice Tux Shirt button sets via ebay.

However, there are LOTS of places on the internet you can order VERY nice white/cream colored dinner jackets. Google "White" "Dinner Jacket" and see what you get. I found mine, a couple years ago, via the internet for about $140, plus shipping (but, because it was an internet purchase there was no tax!). It had to be altered slightly for me, but it fits me VERY well and looks sharp on me.

If you want to know where I got it, feel free to email me.

[jazzsea]

Just a thought..... why not discuss the term "Country Club Casual" for a while. You would not believe some of the outfits we saw on the Oceania Insignia two weeks ago.

We booked Oceania because we were a little tired of all of the changes on Holland America. Oh, so glad that our next cruise is with HAL.

In a perfect world, on a perfect ship, how would we all like to dress? Is it possible to meet our own dress needs without being offensive to others? Or, have we all become so stuffy that we can't tolerate others?

[superstein61]

DH and I dressing formal does not have HAL picking our pockets. In what way does it cost us money to enjoy dressing to the requested dress code? DH owns several tuxedos and dinner jackets. It costs him nothing more to pack a tuxedo vs. another pair of khakis and more jerseys. I costs me nothing to pack a formal dress rather than another pair of slacks.

Maybe not for everyone - but you have plenty of HAL pocket picking money making opportunities:

1. Tuxedo Rental
2. Hairdresser Appointments
3. Photo after photo

thats 3 right there


Ambience.....when you show up in dockers and a golf shirt on formal night, you just may be willing to admit that you "stick out" and effect MY enjoyment of the ambience and setting.

HAL goes to a great deal of expense and work to design and construct elegant dining rooms and the stewards go to much work to polish and shine the crystal and silver and set tables so beautifully.

I want to enjoy the mood and the setting and I enjoy seeing people who have taken a bit of pride and effort in their appearance and consideration for those around them to enhance the ambience and partake of the festivity of the evening.

Why should they change the tradition of formal evenings because some of you have decided you do not wish to participate.

And how someone dresses affects your "ambiance". thats shallow, real shallow



The majority of us do want it and it is part of what we look for on a cruise vacation vs. flopped at some joint on the beach.

UMMMMM - I don't think so. Not sure where you get the "majority" want to do this. Appears to me more forlks prefer casual than formal. At best, its probably evenly split. So you aren't in any majority

[superstein61]

We cruise to go places. A cruise ship is a convenient way to see many places while staying in one bed and unpacking only once. The food, shipboard events, etc., on mass market cruise lines like HAL are just fine for this kind of trip, but they are, frankly, nothing special. And, unlike some here, we really don't care whether someone wears white gloves while escorting us to our cabin, or puts a tablecloth on our veranda table for room service, or gives us a glass of champagne at sailaway, or calls us "massah" while making our beds.

All that stuff is unnecessary frippery. Our vacation is not affected in the least by such trivia. We could not care less about dining with the captain, or knowing the hotel manager, and so on. We don't understand why anyone would care. Perhaps it makes them feel important, or some such thing involving status or ego. ("Ah yes, how delightful that our good friend Captain Van Der Zingus will be aboard during our next cruise.")

So all the talk here about "my Maasdam," and how wonderful everything about HAL is, just gives us cause for the roll-eyes emoticon. No one wears formalwear on a bus tour of Europe, and a cruise is a bus tour on water, with perhaps a bit more evening entertainment. Sorry, folks.

On every mass market cruise line we've sailed, the food, entertainment, service, etc., have been acceptable, but nowhere near exceptional. So, when I point this out, I'm not "ripping HAL," I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. Cruising is a nice way to travel, but it does not turn you into Gatsby. You're not in a Fifth Avenue salon party with Cole Porter tickling the keyboard. You're on a bargain-priced cruise with a bunch of people wearing rented formalwear. If some here get a kick out of thinking they're really experiencing the Gatsby lifestyle, then bully for them. Dress to the hilt. But for HAL--or any mass market cruise line--to require the rest of us to play this masquerade just to please those who enjoy making-believe, is simply silly.

Very well said Hotspur, very well said !!!!!!!

[sail7seas]

Maybe not for everyone - but you have plenty of HAL pocket picking money making opportunities:

1. Tuxedo Rental
2. Hairdresser Appointments
3. Photo after photo

thats 3 right there


1. DH owns his tuxedos and dinner jackets
2. I am more than able to do my own hair quite adequately
3. We have photos taken by friends with OUR cameras or by stewards etc


No added expenses here for us.

And how someone dresses affects your "ambiance". thats shallow, real shallow


In YOUR opinion. And, quite frankly, your opinion is of no more (or less) value than anyone/everyone else's. The way people around us dress (in terms of dockers and golf shirts vs. appropriate clothing for the requested dress code) absolutely does effect my pleasure and enjoyment of the setting HAL has gone to the expense and trouble of creating for our enjoyment. Your boat shoes and dockers do disturb the view.







UMMMMM - I don't think so. Not sure where you get the "majority" want to do this. Appears to me more forlks prefer casual than formal. At best, its probably evenly split. So you aren't in any majority

I get "majority" by looking around the dining room and the ship on formal nights and seeing far more folks dressed APPROPRIATELY on formal nights than not.

[superstein61]

superstein, sail7seas asked you a very simple question:



Your response, in post #80, was almost nothing but a catalog of negative gripes about HAL combined with boastings about how "objective" you are. I'm sorry, but that wasn't what s7s was asking. Nor is it what I'm asking. What is it that you LIKE about cruising, and about HAL in particular, that causes you to be a repeat cruiser? We know what you don't like -- and, especially, what you don't like about HAL -- you've hosed us down with your dislikes for quite a while, now. But what do you LIKE about HAL and about cruising? ANYTHING? Right now, based upon everything that I've read from you, it sounds like you really don't like much about the line at all.

Rev - go back and read - Sail7seas asked a question and listed areas where I have posted negative comments. I addressed those in my response - which I should mention, sail7seas as is typical, didn't even have the courtesy to respond to.

I noted - I have cruised on HAL, NCL and Disney - and I can tell you good and bad points about them all. I happen to be a very objective person - and like to look at the good and the bad when I read a review, etc. So I try to express both opinions here - good and bad. However, since we have so many people postings positives, sometimes the negatives seem to stick out more.

I also said - AND THIS IS IMPORTANT SO PLEASE CATCH IT THIS TIME AROUND REV - "Now - since it appears you have read so many of my posts - you should know that when someone asks how HAL compares to XYZ line - I can provide some differences - but in general, most lines are pretty similiar. Which is why I have stated several times that now, I choose my cruise based on price and itinerary."

PRICE AND ITINERARY !!!!! And most cruise lines are pretty similiar.

I cruise because I like to go to different places - and a cruise is a nice way to get to several of them (HENCE ITINERARY). Since I find most cruise lines similiar (HENCE PRICE) - with just some minor differences (ie most have private islands, most have alternative restaurants, most offer good entertainment and service, most offer kids clubs, etc - its all a matter of which one one views as superior). NCL does offer freestyle which is about the biggest difference between them and HAL or Disney. HAL is not much different than the other lines - IMO, they all are just floating hotels. HAL I would judge better in room size and lack of overcrowding their ships. DIsney - I give high marks for the BEST private island, best kids club and excellent dining rotation. NCL I favor for their freestyle approach. But the differences are not that great to make me choose one over the other.

PRICE AND ITINERARY is the way to choose

[superstein61]

. It DOES matter that you be respectful of others' choices...different as they may from yours. I am unaware of ever being disrespectful to you and your choices and preferences; I expect the same courtesy in return.

Even though directed at Hotspur, this comment is a hoot when you look at who it is coming from.

Not to be dimisive sail7seas - but your remarks being disrepectful, critical and more about others choices fill this board. Maybe you do not think so, but I am sorry, they do. Please do not pretend otherwise

[sail7seas]

Rev - go back and read - Sail7seas asked a question and listed areas where I have posted negative comments. I addressed those in my response - which I should mention, sail7seas as is typical, didn't even have the courtesy to respond to.



Once again, you are wrong. Actually, I was showing you a great deal of courtesy. I had nothing Civil to respond to you so I chose to extend the courtesy to you of remaining silent.

I, too, have cruised number of times on other cruiselines. So what?!!! We have cruised about 5 times on Princess and the same on Celebrity, we have cruised RCI and Carnival (sort of...but that is a long story).....

You want courtesy........EARN IT!

[superstein61]

Is it possible to meet our own dress needs without being offensive to others? Or, have we all become so stuffy that we can't tolerate others?

HEAR, HEAR !!!!!

I could care less what others wear. People should do what they feel comfortable doing.

I am going on a Caribbean cruise - not some formal get together at the White House. I will stick with my Tropical look - thank you

[superstein61]

I get "majority" by looking around the dining room and the ship on formal nights and seeing far more folks dressed APPROPRIATELY on formal nights than not.

Sorry - You must be cruising on different ships and at different times of the year. Their certainly is not a majority who PREFER formal nights. You may get some more that conform (I used to be one - but no longer). But viewing opinions, and NCL where people DO HAVE A CHOICE - its no more than 50/50

[superstein61]

Once again, you are wrong. Actually, I was showing you a great deal of courtesy. I had nothing Civil to respond to you so I chose to extend the courtesy to you of remaining silent.

I, too, have cruised number of times on other cruiselines. So what?!!! We have cruised about 5 times on Princess and the same on Celebrity, we have cruised RCI and Carnival (sort of...but that is a long story).....

You want courtesy........EARN IT!

Look who is talking once again about being civil and courteous. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTINHG un-civil in my lengthy response to you.

C'mon now - you have been exposed more than once for - give it a break

[sail7seas]

I am quite done with you.


I shall no longer play along. When you get into name calling, I'm done, gone, over. ....You're on your own fella. Go for it.

[superstein61]

I am quite done with you.


I shall no longer play along(you're getting redundant and boring IMO ).....you're on your own fella. Go for it.

Hmmmm - methinks I have struck a nerve. Sail7Seas must not like being exposed for the judgemental, uncourteous person she really is. Oh well, life goes on.

And a pleasant good riddance to you dear

[777steve]

I don't have kids of my own but I do have lots of experience with other folks who do. One of the constants is that when the kids get too whiny and unreasonable, they finally just have to turn their attention elsewhere until the little darlings run out of steam. It's always funny to me to watch how fast they lose interest in their rant when no one will play.

Cheers!

[Daxxx]

Will be going on the Zaandam to Alaska and I am wondering if you can rent a tux on the ship and if so what would be the cost?

Thanks,

Daxxx

[peaches from georgia]

Yes, you can rent a tux for your cruise and have it waiting for you in your stateroom when you board.

All the information you will need is on the website www.cruiselineformal.com. You can do it all online and I've never read any comments here on CC that were less than satisfied with this service.

[tjcox9]

On one cruise I was on, there were a number of Scots. For formal evenings, they donned their "formal' kilts. They enjoyed themselves and we enjoyed seeing them.

[RevNeal]

What a blast from the past this was.
I wonder why fights over formal clothing haven't erupted much as of late?

Gee, I miss superstein61 ... there's nothing like self-opinionated subjectivity masquerading as objectiveness to give one a laugh. How one can cruise on two different HAL ships and think they have insight into the entire Line I'll never know. But, all that and clothing choices aside, he really was a neat guy. He'd probably be a whole lot of fun at the dinner table ... again, clothing choices aside.

Addendum: I just checked ... he's not posted anything since November 8th, 2004. I suppose he grew tired of us and quit. :)

[RuthC]

...Addendum: I just checked ... he's not posted anything since November 8th, 2004. I suppose he grew tired of us and quit. :)
Or was reincarnated under a new board name, perhaps? :confused:

[Daxxx]

Thank you Peaches, you have help me greatly. I have been running around trying to get information about renting and all I had to do was make one post here and volia!

Thanks again

Daxxx

[trubey]

When we were on the Prinsendam last year, there was a Brazilian writer and his wife who were refused admittance to dinner on Formal Night because the gentleman was not wearing a suit or tuxedo. He was wearing a Yabarra (I think that's the correct spelling) which is a fine cotton shirt with counted-thread embroidery, very expensive and -- formal. You would wear one to your Daughter's wedding, for instance.

Perhaps he should have conformed to the 'Local' fashion. Perhaps not. Is a Scot in a kilt much different?

Lane

[gizmo]

Could it be Guayberra? Here is link to different spellings and pictures of the shirts.

http://www.locostyle.com/

There was someone who posts on this board that wore them on a formal night with no problem. It was probably a Caribbean cruise.

Trubey,

You have a point. How is a Scott in a kilt any different? These guayberra are considered formal in some cultures.

[BCEagle78]

This thread brought back memories of the never-ending debate on this topic. Superstein61 was usually deeply involved in this and other topics where he was always controversial...

What happened to him? At least occasionally his responses were entertaining.

[sail7seas]

Could it be Guayberra? Here is link to different spellings and pictures of the shirts.




http://www.locostyle.com/

There was someone who posts on this board that wore them on a formal night with no problem. It was probably a Caribbean cruise.

Trubey,

You have a point. How is a Scott in a kilt any different? These guayberra are considered formal in some cultures.



We have a poster here who wore a kilt for formal night on an Ocean Princess cruise where we met I really enjoyed meeting him on that cruise and know that he has been cruising HAL in recent years, as well as other cruiselines. I think he always wears his kilt on formal nights and looks fabulous. IMO (I'll leave it to him to identify himself if he chooses.)

Personally, I welcome gentlemen wearing formal wear such as Dress Blues (Army) and Navy formal wear etc as well as Kilts. Maybe I make the distinction in my mind as those 'outfits' include a jacket. The guayberra seems very casual in our culture as there is no jacket???

[peaches from georgia]

You have a point. How is a Scott in a kilt any different? These guayberra are considered formal in some cultures.
How about Bermuda shorts worn by a Bermudian on formal nights? That is their national dress and Bermuda shorts are worn with coat and tie in Bermuda all the time.

I think that would be fine as would kilts on a Scot. Our pastor is from Scotland and I would never think it wrong for him to wear his full Scottish national dress on formal night on any ship.

[CDRMark]

As a true kilt outfit requires a knife in the stocking, (the Skean Dhu), one must be careful in ones argument with a Scot so dressed.:)

S7S, I agree that it seems like the definition of 'formal' includes a jacket and neckwear in this culture (which of course is the culture in which we are cruising).

Cheers
MarkB

[fridayeyes]

I think the Mexican wedding shirts are just fine for formal attire. I realize that they look 'casual' to American and European eyes, but I do not believe we should judge styles of dress in other cultures by our own standards. I think glittering saris are beautiful and also appropriate, etc. I would even go so far as to say they are appropriate for people not of that culture.

IMHO, we are not cruising in Western culture. We are cruising in international culture, as evidenced by international ship registries and ports of call in many countries where local formal dress customs are different. The ships' clientele may be dominated by Americans numerically, but to me, that doesn't mean it's 'Western'.

Cheers,

Friday

[peaches from georgia]

So, if we are cruising in a culture where jacket and neckwear are required on formal nights regardless of one's nationality, then on every night are Bermuda shorts out of line if worn by a Bermudian (with jacket on informal and jacket and tie on formal nights)? The dress code does say 'no shorts' for dinner in the dining room on any night. Are there exceptions?

Anyone who has been to Bermuda is aware how well-dressed Bermudians are in their shorts, for both business and dress wear. Would anyone really object to this on a cruise?

[fridayeyes]

I would not object. Unfortunately, I think there might be a problem getting into the dining room and if there were, I think it would be a cultural mistake. Yes, this leads to relativism and yes, I expect that most of the board will disagree with me. However, the attire described is appropriately formal in the person's home culture and should therefore meet the definition of 'formal' for the sake of formal night.

Cheers,

Friday

[cruznon]

Guess I'm just a traditionalist. I LOVE the formal nights!
Yes, it is an extra effort sometimes to put on the formal gear after a relaxing day, but the atmosphere on a formal night at sea is so lovely!
Everyone is in their finery (OK, almost everyone), the smiles, families being photographed together,etc. Seeing kids in suits and party dresses--beaming. It's wonderful entering the dining room knowing this is a special evening.
To me, part of a cruise is not just the modern-day amenities, but the nod to cruising in the past--when travel was special. Taking a cruise for us is a special event--not just a convenient way to get from one place to another.
As my DH says, "It's such a privilege to step aboard a beautiful ship!":D

[fridayeyes]

I love them too. I have several gowns that only get worn on cruises, and several that I've bought for future curises that I haven't worn yet. :) I have plenty of basic black, but my tastes also run to magenta crushed velvet with a strapless, boned bodice, etc. I have one Vera Wang silk gown in champagne beige that I found *very* much on sale. (Somebody at Nordies ran a garment rack over it, resulting in (small) tire marks and minor damage. Even after cleaning and mending costs, it will have been about 85% off. :) ) I'm actually a bit worried it might be over the top on some lines. You can bet your buttons that I'll be wearing it as soon as it fits, though!

I would also love to wear a really fine, formal kimono or a sari if I had them.

Cheers,

Friday

[CDRMark]

:confused: I am not so insular as to believe that Western implies American, unless one is speaking Cowboys and Native Americans....:)
"Formal" is relatively consistent (fashion excepted) from Moscow west to Vancouver.
MarkB

[sail7seas]

How about Bermuda shorts worn by a Bermudian on formal nights? That is their national dress and Bermuda shorts are worn with coat and tie in Bermuda all the time.

I think that would be fine as would kilts on a Scot. Our pastor is from Scotland and I would never think it wrong for him to wear his full Scottish national dress on formal night on any ship.

It is my understanding that Bermuda shorts are their 'national dress' for daytime; I do not believe that is considered formal by people in Bermuda. If they do not consider it formal, I don't think we should either.



I believe I posted that I thought the poster from this Board who wore his Kilt on formal night on Ocean Princess looked GREAT IMO

[sail7seas]

I would think the beautiful (and often very intricate) sari would be fabulous on formal night.


I also would love to see beautiful kimono worn by women.

In other cultures, those dresses are considered formal.

[Tarkus]

as somebody who has done a good bit of business in bermuda i can attest that the traditional blue blazer and bermuda shorts is business attire but most definitely not considered formal attire. that mode of dress would be appropriate (imo) on nights where men are required to have jacket and tie; but they would defer to a traditional tux for formalwear (at least in my experience).

btw, i'm not at all a fan of the process of dress-up... but you know it's there when you buy into this ship so you can't complain too loudly - otherwise, go signup for windjammer or similar where it's casual 24/7. as far as what's considered formal changing? i'm sure that'll happen, but it's a slow, arduous process (as in generations). not likely gonna see it happen in my lifetime! ;)

[peaches from georgia]

as somebody who has done a good bit of business in bermuda i can attest that the traditional blue blazer and bermuda shorts is business attire but most definitely not considered formal attire. that mode of dress would be appropriate (imo) on nights where men are required to have jacket and tie; but they would defer to a traditional tux for formalwear (at least in my experience).

Thank you for sharing your experience. I will amend my question and exclude formal nights and ask- should the dress codes for casual and informal nights be amended so that Bermuda shorts could be worn by a Bermudian in the dining room with appropriate shirt on casual nights and jacket (w/ or w/out tie) on informal nights? I can't imagine anyone objecting.

[gizmo]

I would think the beautiful (and often very intricate) sari would be fabulous on formal night.


I have seen saris on more than one cruise and they were beautiful. The ones worn on formal nights were gorgeous.

[dakrewser]

It really doesn't matter what's considered "formal" in Bermuda, Mexico or Fiji - HAL (and other cruise lines) define what they mean by "formal" and that's the guideline to go by.

[gizmo]

I just got off the Statendam and we had two formal evenings. I wore my tux the first night and felt out of place as there were so few other men wearing them. I opted for a coat and tie the second formal night and was definitely with the majority- at least for the 6:15 dining time. I did not see a single tux in the dining room except for the staff people.



I think this might be a first also.

[m steve]

Getting into tux on the ship gives you a special feeling that you don't have in just a suit. Don't you want to walk into the casino looking for the Bacarat table, the beautiful young woman being kept by the cruel spy or feel that Ingrid Bergman will walk over to you playing your best Cary Grant role?
I remember just a few years ago when you had to be in formal dress to enter the casino in Nassau. Some traditions deserve to fade away but dressing for dinner is still charming. I wear formal wear at least 8 times a year and had a custon made tux made in Hong Kong. Well worth the cost vs. renting. Even buying one at Men's Wearhouse or a discount store more than pays for itself after 2 wearings.

[xpcdoojk]

This really is a thread that won't die.:(

Enforce the dining code, and lets redefine respect, because that is really what the problem is, and it is a lack of....

jc:D :D

[SantaAna,CA]

Actually I am quite fond of 17th and 18th century fashion, and often wonder what people would think when they see the way we dress today. I'm not talking about "neat casual", but taking no care at all with one's appearance.

However, a person has a choice how to dress and that's great, diversity is a good thing! However, I don't get much of a chance to dress up, so I'm looking forward to the formal nights on my upcoming cruise in August. For those who don't care to dress up, the Lido is always available!

:) Jane

[annebill]

How in the world did this old antique thread get cranked up again ? It wasn't me. Just to be clear, I NEVER advocated doing away with formal--just wondered if you would be broadminded enough to allow others' ideas of formal on a cruise ship. Many of you have proven by your posts to be very liberal minded and tolerant of almost any other choices fellow pax may make, but not when it comes to this question. I say again, I always take my tux, but would not be averse to wearing a spiffy, formal guayabera. Let's put this thing to bed again as no minds are likely to be changed and just about everything that can be said on the subject has been said.

[SantaAna,CA]

I'm sorry, I don't think it's either intolerant or narrow minded (the opposite of broadminded, I would guess!) to like the formal night guidelines the way they are.

If you ask a question, you have to realize not everyone is going to agree with you. Disagreeing doesn't render a person intolerant, it just means they have a different opinion. No, I don't think the formal rules should be changed to, "whatever is formal for you". I think they're great the way they are.

Best wishes,

Jane :)

[argosy]

I have no issues with the current definition of formalwear. I'm sure that someday, formalwear will mean something entirely different...but until it does change...it is what it is.

Also, Thurston Howell the III and his wife 'Lovey' would not like for you to redefine 'formalwear.'

;-)

[tumeroll]

I have come late to this post but if the original poster does not like formal attire, may I suggest a cruise on any NCL ship where Wal-mart casual is the dress of chice even for formal nights.
Let's try to keep HAL and Cunard as elegant as possible.

[Scrumpy]

The OP did NOT have a problem with traditional formalwear. You should have read the original post. The question was about formal dress that was appropriate for other cultures being worn on formal nights. It was about re-defining formal wear to include some other forms of, often equally or more elegant, attire. It was NOT about wearing shorts and flip-flops!

[fridayeyes]

LOL, Scrumpy. You know no 'appropriate attire' thread would be complete with out a reference to Wal-Mart and flip-flops (jeans and shorts on even numbered days).

*conspiratorial whisper*

I have even heard that there's a giant slot machine on the back end side of the servers that randomly selects a CC poster to make the obligatory flip-flop/jeans/Wal-Mart comment. If you don't comply, secret ninja attack squads will be sent on your next cruise to 'take care' of you.

Yeah, you just keep on thinking all those black outfits on formal nights are tuxes....

*glances nervously over her shoulder*

Now, where's that sarcasm smiley.... :D

Cheers,

Friday

[Scrumpy]

Friday - What was I thinking? Sorry! What would a discussion of attire be without the obligatory snide comments about Wal-Mart and the bashing of other cruise lines? ;) Too funny. I will comply with "instructions" and mention that dress codes policies will now be enforced by throwing offenders overboard.
*frantically pacing and wringing hands*
Do you think that will satisfy the powers-that-be?
:D

[caribbean girl]

The interesting thing is that it would appear that we (the royal) seem to worry about all this stuff infinitely more that the actual 'powers that be'.;)

[fridayeyes]

Well, I *did* find a very nice pair of flip-flops for half off at my school bookstore yesterday. The footbeds are made of thin bamboo, with pink embroidered flowers. The straps are pink leather. I'm going to use them for the beach and around the house, tho. :) I'd hate to draw the notice of the hit squad. :D

Scrumpy, I think that's best. If we advocated keel-hauling, it might look over the top, you know? ;)

Cheers,

Friday, who is giddy as a school girl because her cruise leaves tomorrow!

[tumeroll]

Scrubby and Kara-bean - Hard to tell from your recent posts if you subscribe to the liberal dumb it down school and I do not have time to surf through 160 posts to find out so if the Birkenstock fits wear it. If not my apology.

When I read the original post it appeared that the poster was looking to find a way out of the formal attire deal. Following your concept, there are some cultures still on this planet where a clean loin cloth and better body paint would be a formal night and what do we do with the nudist culture and their formal night.

Better that on fine ships we all try to dress in our finest according to tradition of the line and not try to justify ways to get around it because we do not want to . As I suggested having just returned from a 15 day voyage through Wal-Mart land, there are places where such attire is encouraged. Please head in that direction if that is your bent. I would hope that opie would reconsider and wear a fine tailored tuxedo on his next sailing.

[annebill]

Thank you, Scrumpy. I can't understand why so many people have so much trouble understanding what I thought was clearly stated in proper English. I suppose they look down on every other culture and others' values as inferior to the American standard, and they are certainly unwilling to let the American male have any choice in what is considered "formal". Compare to the choices the fairer sex has--pants, long gowns, short gowns ,blouses, jeweled jackets, fancy slippers, spiked heels, etc., etc. I certainly never implied that "formal" should be jeans, shorts, t-shirts or any other such ridiculous charges. What if we suddenly decreed that only hooped long gowns would be considered "formal" for women ? I can hear these same people screaming to high heaven.

[tumeroll]

Have you tried the long gown?

[Scrumpy]

Friday,
Your shoes sound lovely ! My only "flip-flops" are black, beaded and have a small heel :) They will not make an appearance on formal night unless there are unfortunate blister incidents. I think we will pass inspection.

Oh, for the days of yore when people walked the plank, were whipped for transgressions, and press-ganged into service... I suppose you're right. Things just aren't like they used to be.

Well, I *did* find a very nice pair of flip-flops for half off at my school bookstore yesterday. The footbeds are made of thin bamboo, with pink embroidered flowers. The straps are pink leather. I'm going to use them for the beach and around the house, tho. :) I'd hate to draw the notice of the hit squad. :D

Scrumpy, I think that's best. If we advocated keel-hauling, it might look over the top, you know? ;)

Cheers,

Friday, who is giddy as a school girl because her cruise leaves tomorrow!

[Scrumpy]

You're welcome. IMHO: There are some who appear incapable of seeing the world outside their own narrow experience. There are those who fear change, believing it is inherently evil. Others are simply looking for a fight. Such is life - a short, precious experience too valuable to be wasted squabbling with those who seek discord rather than harmony.:) I am reminded of a scene in Parenthood when the children's play was disrupted when a sibling ran onstage to "protect" his sibling. A few people believed the production was ruined. Others laughed and appreciated the spontaneity and charm of children. It's obvious which camp I prefer.

I like hoop skirts, but sitting down while wearing one is tricky ;)

Thank you, Scrumpy. I can't understand why so many people have so much trouble understanding what I thought was clearly stated in proper English. I suppose they look down on every other culture and others' values as inferior to the American standard, and they are certainly unwilling to let the American male have any choice in what is considered "formal". Compare to the choices the fairer sex has--pants, long gowns, short gowns ,blouses, jeweled jackets, fancy slippers, spiked heels, etc., etc. I certainly never implied that "formal" should be jeans, shorts, t-shirts or any other such ridiculous charges. What if we suddenly decreed that only hooped long gowns would be considered "formal" for women ? I can hear these same people screaming to high heaven.

[dakrewser]

You're welcome. IMHO: There are some who appear incapable of seeing the world outside their own narrow experience. There are those who fear change, believing it is inherently evil. Others are simply looking for a fight.

And some (myself included) take the words of the cruise line at face value - no more, no less. Should you convince the powers that be that a guayabara (or a well-pressed loincloth) should be included in their definition of "formal", then I'd have no objection.

[cruisecrasy]

Why do people who do not wish to dress formally want to go to the place where it is required and why do people keep questioning what is meant by 'formal' when it is clearly stated in any dictionary? (By the way - technically tuxs are not formalwear - merely semi-formal. White tie and tails are 'formal' for men as are long gowns with 12 button gloves for ladies - Ahhh the good ol' days)...!!

[Scrumpy]

Of course; and that's not a problem. I didn't go through every possible reason, just the ones that struck me at the time. I apologize for the omission, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time on that post, to be frank. I think it's pretty interesting that many, if not most, people seem to accept kilts, though. Seems a lot will pick and choose the dress they find acceptable, even when it falls outside the cruise lines' recommendations. This is one of those cases where some people are not entirely consistent.

These dress code threads fascinate me, honestly. A person has said something directly to me (no, not you) that was fairly tacky. It's bizarre to see someone appear to be so upset over this. The Internet, and message boards specifically, allow for the most interesting people-watching, IMHO. It's like an ongoing sociological experiment and I get a bang out of it most of the time. The rude comments remind of what people do in their cars - cutting in line. Not many people would walk to the front of the line at the movie theater and shove right in. People do it in cars all the time. They feel safer. It's partly Internet anonymity that makes all of this otherwise unacceptably confrontational behavior somehow tolerated. I am constantly looking for the missing pieces, the clues to people's personalities, their values, etc. - which has nothing to do with anything except that when I feel like someone is purposely trying to wind me up, I end up wanting to crawl inside their mind, learn their personal history and figure out why. The original disagreement usually ends up falling to the bottom of the list of things I'm pondering...

Hmmm, about that loincloth; aren't we getting dangerously close to a discussion about thong bathing suits? ;) Those make all the formal threads (and booze smuggling threads) look tame...

And some (myself included) take the words of the cruise line at face value - no more, no less. Should you convince the powers that be that a guayabara (or a well-pressed loincloth) should be included in their definition of "formal", then I'd have no objection.

[Scrumpy]

Why is it wrong to ask questions? Why would someone forgo cruising because of one element that doesn't appeal to them? I hate airports, but my world would be tiny if I didn't use them to get where I want to go. Some of us always probe, analyze and want to know "who", "what", "when", "where", "how" and "why". If we were all the same and all thought the same, life would be incredibly tedious.
Why do people who do not wish to dress formally want to go to the place where it is required and why do people keep questioning what is meant by 'formal' when it is clearly stated in any dictionary? (By the way - technically tuxs are not formalwear - merely semi-formal. White tie and tails are 'formal' for men as are long gowns with 12 button gloves for ladies - Ahhh the good ol' days)...!!

[xpcdoojk]

Scrumpy, why should someone from Scotland not be allowed to wear their own formal wear. IE it is their traditional formal wear. I certainly would expect a Seik to wear the head dress and the women a Sari. I certainly would not expect them to change from their traditional formal dress, and neither does the cruiselines. In other words while these examples may be outside the scope of what we in the US consider formal or technically semi-formal wear they are in fact formal wear. It is, also, appropriate to wear your dress uniform if you are a member of the active armed forces. It is really easy to determine what is appropriate, and it is even easier to determine what is inappropriate.

Again, this thread is older than dirt. The discussion has been had a bazillion times, and why are people so busy trying to throw out red herrings like kilts into a discussion that is and always will be about respect or the lack of it. It is a simple matter. If you dress appropriately you are showing respect to the cruiseline and your fellow passengers, if you dress like Larry the Cable guy at formal night, you are clearly showing the same disrespect. It is a simple thing really, and everything else is just arguements without substance. JMHO.

jc

I am wondering how many formal discussions have taken place in these forums, I am betting it would number in the tens of thousands of threads.:rolleyes:

[annebill]

xpcdoojk, I agree that this old thread has more than had its day. As the OP, it is frustrating to have my comments continually mischaracterized and twisted. To those who do so, I ask that you look up the word "redefine".I have never advocated doing away with "formal" dress on HAL ships. There are rigid nitpickers who repeatedly say follow HAL's guidlines, which state "dark suits or tuxedos" recommended for gentlemen on "formal" nights. As you point out, the guidlines say nothing about dress military uniforms, dress kilts or anything else. So, I suppose dakrewser and the others of that persuasion must be terribly upset when they see those people who are not in compliance with the guidlines. I have seen dress uniforms on practically every HAL cruise I've been on. Interesting that you mention Sikhs. I was once priveledged to attend a seminar given by a renowned Sikh physician whose family was along. Although U.S. citizens, they maintained the Sikh customs and traditions. The father and 12 year old son wore turbans at all times, indoors and out--even in the pool. Even in the dining room on dressy nights. The wife wore the traditional femine garb with scarf. These people would have sent the rigid "HAL guidlines" crowd into a tailspin, I'm sure, just as someone from Latin America in a dressy guayaberra would.No mention in "HAL guidlines", you see, so therefore improper in the extreme. Perhaps cases for "redefine" ?

Now some posters here are hung up on loin cloths. That wouldn't appeal to me but if it does to them then I suggest a nice zebra skin cloak and leopard skin hat to go with it, at least on formal nights.

[dakrewser]

I think it's pretty interesting that many, if not most, people seem to accept kilts, though. Seems a lot will pick and choose the dress they find acceptable, even when it falls outside the cruise lines' recommendations.


Actually, if you check Scottish formal kit it fully meets the description of "formal" that HAL uses.


xpcdoojk: Sorry, but the outfits you describe do not conform to the definition for formal on board a HAL ship. There is nothing in the definition that allows for the equivalent in some other culture. Once you start down that road, there's nothing to stop the person in a "formal" loin cloth and freshened body paint!

[xpcdoojk]

xpcdoojk, I agree that this old thread has more than had its day. As the OP, it is frustrating to have my comments continually mischaracterized and twisted. To those who do so, I ask that you look up the word "redefine".I have never advocated doing away with "formal" dress on HAL ships. There are rigid nitpickers who repeatedly say follow HAL's guidlines, which state "dark suits or tuxedos" recommended for gentlemen on "formal" nights. As you point out, the guidlines say nothing about dress military uniforms, dress kilts or anything else. So, I suppose dakrewser and the others of that persuasion must be terribly upset when they see those people who are not in compliance with the guidlines. I have seen dress uniforms on practically every HAL cruise I've been on. Interesting that you mention Sikhs. I was once priveledged to attend a seminar given by a renowned Sikh physician whose family was along. Although U.S. citizens, they maintained the Sikh customs and traditions. The father and 12 year old son wore turbans at all times, indoors and out--even in the pool. Even in the dining room on dressy nights. The wife wore the traditional femine garb with scarf. These people would have sent the rigid "HAL guidlines" crowd into a tailspin, I'm sure, just as someone from Latin America in a dressy guayaberra would.No mention in "HAL guidlines", you see, so therefore improper in the extreme. Perhaps cases for "redefine" ?

Now some posters here are hung up on loin cloths. That wouldn't appeal to me but if it does to them then I suggest a nice zebra skin cloak and leopard skin hat to go with it, at least on formal nights.

I agree, and Dave is correcting me as we type. I suppose if some head hunters were discovered in Borneo and they booked a HAL cruise, they might not even show up in a loin cloth.:eek: ;) I really think the loin cloth is just as much a red herring as the kilts. If people are on a cruise and they are dressed in their cultures version of formal wear, I can't imagine anyone questioning if they are dressed respectful of the traditions. Most of these traditions have existed for hundreds of years for sea-faring travelers. I am pretty sure if the Sultan of Brunei were on one of his majesties ships a century ago, that the captain would not force the sultan into coat and tails for dinner on the ship with the officers for a formal dinner. This is completely different from me showing up in my flip flops torn jean shorts and a dirty t-shirt. A sikh man in his version of formal dress will never stand out as a display of disrespect(of course, he will stand out due to being uniquely dressed but still respectable). However, me in my tshirt will be and is disrespectful.

Therefore the extremes on this discussion do not resolve any of the real world issues. These issues are maintaining the wonderful traditions that have survived centuries in order to keep a cruise different from a week at Sandals. This includes the formal atmosphere to which compromises have been made as cruising has increased in popularity. The other extreme is the selfish nature of some passengers of not conforming to the respectful code. In a selfish flaunting of their defiance of social standards and codes they intentionally inflame the situation, both in these forums regularly and occassionally on a cruise. Both sides have valid points of view, but the extreme postitions of either are never going to convince the majority. :(

jc

[Scrumpy]

They should be, IMHO. However, the HAL docs say quite distinctly " men usually business suits or tuxedos...Although business suits or tuxedos are suggested attire for formal evening, they are certainly not required. You are welcome to wear a jacket and tie on formal nights". I wouldn't have thought that the formal Scottish dress TECHNICALLY fell into that category. I was observing that while people may be flexible in some circumstances, they pick the attire of which they personally approve. I think we are on the same page with this. People use extreme examples and the old "slippery slope", but I am not falling for it.

Scrumpy, why should someone from Scotland not be allowed to wear their own formal wear. IE it is their traditional formal wear. I certainly would expect a Seik to wear the head dress and the women a Sari. I certainly would not expect them to change from their traditional formal dress, and neither does the cruiselines. In other words while these examples may be outside the scope of what we in the US consider formal or technically semi-formal wear they are in fact formal wear. It is, also, appropriate to wear your dress uniform if you are a member of the active armed forces. It is really easy to determine what is appropriate, and it is even easier to determine what is inappropriate.


Again, this thread is older than dirt. The discussion has been had a bazillion times, and why are people so busy trying to throw out red herrings like kilts into a discussion that is and always will be about respect or the lack of it. It is a simple matter. If you dress appropriately you are showing respect to the cruiseline and your fellow passengers, if you dress like Larry the Cable guy at formal night, you are clearly showing the same disrespect. It is a simple thing really, and everything else is just arguements without substance. JMHO.

jc

I am wondering how many formal discussions have taken place in these forums, I am betting it would number in the tens of thousands of threads.:rolleyes:

[Scrumpy]

You'll have to walk me through that one, Dave. I don't see it.
Actually, if you check Scottish formal kit it fully meets the description of "formal" that HAL uses.

[RevNeal]

http://www.revneal.org/Resources/emoticons/Deadhorse.gif

Poor horse ... poor horse.
Yes, I enjoy playing on this subject too ... but this thread needs to be sent to the glue factory.

[xpcdoojk]

http://www.revneal.org/Resources/emoticons/Deadhorse.gif

Poor horse ... poor horse.
Yes, I enjoy playing on this subject too ... but this thread needs to be sent to the glue factory.

Thank you Revneal, I always quit these topics when the dead horse smiley is posted, and that is the best one yet!:D This entire topic is so dead, and then we have the obligatory formal poll up in this forum. It gets really really tiresome after all of these years. I truly don't care what people wear at any time, I reserve to myself the right to laugh my a$$ off at them at anytime while on a cruise. I just get sick of all of the justifications on the topic. :D

jc

[dakrewser]

You'll have to walk me through that one, Dave. I don't see it.

Note the jacket and tie.....

http://www.warwicks.net/images/kilt500.jpg

[stormyc]

Hey! He's got you on that one, Scrumpy! :D

Watch out! I believe dakrewser could carry on an entire conversation with just pictures!!

[RevNeal]

Look at the legs on that guy.
;)

[Scrumpy]

Revneal,
Bad joke. I will cut you some slack, but the glue factory/horse slaughter is, um, a rather sensitive subject for someone with 2 rescue horses. It's okay, but my knee-jerk response was to be, er, educational (and strident and boring), LOL :)

http://www.revneal.org/Resources/emoticons/Deadhorse.gif

Poor horse ... poor horse.
Yes, I enjoy playing on this subject too ... but this thread needs to be sent to the glue factory.

[Scrumpy]

Right you are; I guess that means boleros are okay, too :) (I would never have thought of boleros, but they are, I suppose, "jackets")....



Note the jacket and tie.....

http://www.warwicks.net/images/kilt500.jpg

[Scrumpy]

Yup, he's right. Hey, a picture is worth a thousand words. (feeling like the queen of cliches now).



Hey! He's got you on that one, Scrumpy! :D

Watch out! I believe dakrewser could carry on an entire conversation with just pictures!!

[RevNeal]

Bad joke. I will cut you some slack, but the glue factory/horse slaughter is, um, a rather sensitive subject for someone with 2 rescue horses. It's okay, but my knee-jerk response was to be, er, educational (and strident and boring), LOL

As well as being out of place in this forum, out of character with the nature of this thread, and totally lacking in even the most minimal smidgen of humor.

In other words, don't be so dang-blasted serious.

[Vic The Parrot]

What's there to 'redefine'???



To me, formal means just that.
A black tie function .... accompanied by a lady in a satin gown on my arm.

I have a tux, so I don't have any reasons not to wear it.

[Scrumpy]

Sorry. When you are devoted to a cause, you tend to lose your sense of humor about anything pertaining to it. Really - I apologize if I came across as unreasonably rigid or humorless. I spend a lot of time on welfare and slaughter issues (time that often seems totally wasted) and it does take its toll on a person. :o
As well as being out of place in this forum, out of character with the nature of this thread, and totally lacking in even the most minimal smidgen of humor.

In other words, don't be so dang-blasted serious.

[RevNeal]

Sorry. When you are devoted to a cause, you tend to lose your sense of humor about anything pertaining to it. Really - I apologize if I came across as unreasonably rigid or humorless. I spend a lot of time on welfare and slaughter issues (time that often seems totally wasted) and it does take its toll on a person.

I certainly understand, and am sorry if I pricked a raw nerve. Such wasn't at all intended, of course; no connection with reality or actual cases was intended at all. I was simply attempting to illustrate, with a little bit of humor, the futility of such discussions.

Just as an aside, I am deeply devoted to the Church and to the ministry of the Gospel, however I do also have a sense of humor about both. :) When we lose the capacity to laugh at ourselves we have reached the point of unhealthy absorption.

[caribbean girl]

http://www.revneal.org/Resources/emoticons/Deadhorse.gif

Poor horse ... poor horse.
Yes, I enjoy playing on this subject too ... but this thread needs to be sent to the glue factory.

How 'bout it, rev? I think 'we' are getting desperate for subjects to debate/argue/obsess about.