I didn't realise the boards are retrospectively censored

[Dave From Oz]

Interesting that not only was my last post not accepted, but several posts from Meow & UK1 as well as mine have disappeared after being originally posted.
It does seem that a certain poster is being protected by the powers that be.

But how does everyone else feel about posts suddenly disappearing from the boards????

dave

[uk1]

Hi Dave - I'm concerned to read your post about censorship. As I cannot recall a single post in breach of rules - could you refresh my memory about which posts from the three mentioned have been cut?

It is discourtesy in the extreme if posts have been deleted without a moderator contacting the poster to point out where guidelines/rules have been breached - and if this is happened then I will certainly not post again without an acceptable explanation.

[uk1]

I've worked out the missing posts and request a public statement from the moderator (a) why the posts were removed and (b) why the moderator didn't make contact with at least two of the posters.

Failing any reasonable response I won't waste my time in future posting and hope that others take the same approach.

[Dave From Oz]

Thanks UK1,

I was hoping I was not the only one concerned with what had happened.

It does make you wonder about double standards - Durant has been accused of all sorts of things (including tking money to boost Siversea) & has been left to defend himself (rather capably I must say) - but when I suggested that another poster might be "stimulating" discussion the guillotin came down.

And I might add, I queried Richard as to why my final post was censored & didn't get the coutesy of a response.

Not to be cynical, but it does make you wonder how long this thread will be allowed to remain.

Dave

[uk1]

I'm dissapointed. I've posted many times in particular about europe where most advice to americans comes from other americans - and I genuinely felt I was helping others with an area of the world where I'm expert.

Censorship is totally unforgivable except in very extreme situations where life is at risk. Not on an internet travel board. I will not accept censorship from a board moderator on the basis of "they didn't LIKE the post" and couldn't be bothered to inform the poster. The forum shouldn't be supported on that basis by anyone with any sense of freedom and fair play.

I want to emphasise this issue is not about whether other people agreed, or liked my posts - but whether they agree that someone should delete them without explanation so that others couldn't read them. Censorship without accountability or explanantion is the issue.

We'll either get an explanation - or I gess as you predict - not - in which case it was great to talk to you and good bye.

[Seas the Day]

What was deleted?

[goeurope]

When were the missing messages posted? Could they have been posted during the maintenance window (6/4-6/5, I believe), when Cruise Critic's forums carried a warning that any posts during that time would be lost in the scheduled software upgrade?

--
Durant Imboden
Europeforvisitors.com

[uk1]

Thanks for interest Durant.

No - they were posted and appeared after the scheduled maintenance.

[goeurope]

OK. I'm a bit surprised, though. Richard tends to keep his finger off the "delete" button.

--
Durant Imboden
Europeforvisitors.com

[sas789]

Dave, UK1 and Meow,
Please repeat your cencored posts here - or elsewhere - so that we all can judge by ourselves.
I do not believe that they will be cencored again. If so, then they could be published somwhere else.

[luxlady]

Hey everyone, if your post was deleted without explanation, do tell us what it was about! I know that posts that "flame" others or are deemed to be "disruptive" are deleted, and of course it is a judgement call which ones must go........the Radisson Board had a spate of that a couple of months ago, and the resultant hue and cry among regulars resulted in the creation of a new board. (the regulars still post on the Rad. board though.)

While I don't always have anything to add to the posts here, I log on every day (usually more than once!) to see whats new.....I enjoy all of the give and take, and have definitely learned more about cruising from reading these posts (and sometimes posting myself!) http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Glenda Madrid

[Dave From Oz]

Hi all,

Reposting is a little difficult - the posts in question no longer appear in my private space under the list of posts made.

I guess I am surprised that a thread can be retrospectively "adjusted" to the benefit of one poster. As I remarked earlier, it seems strange given that other posters have been very roughly dealt with in the past & the posts remain for all to see.

But, more importantly, it is the silence of the moderator which is disturbing. To paraphrase the rallying call from the American War of Independance,rather than "No taxation without representation", we ought to insist on "No deletion without explanation"

Or, of course, there is the alternative that LuxLady mentioned...

Dave

[Seas the Day]

Are you not able to tell us what was deleted? Multiple posters have asked what was written, but no answers.... just allusions.

Has anyone tried to answer?

[SJGOCH]

I downloaded the whole thread the other day, and IMHO, what started out by uk1 as his impressions of the ship from his viewpoint and lifestyle deteriorated in discussions of frozen meat and whether French beef was better than Texas beef.
It may be that the moderator felt that these types of discussions have no place on this board.
I come here to read of other peoples' experiences on a cruise line and share my own with them. I realize that observations can be colored by one's own culture, and I enjoy discussing a subject with a person who has a different take on it. But to understand, not to criticize their opinion.

[Dave From Oz]

And just to clarify one thing - the debate over fresh versus frozen meat took place after the deletions to the Board had occurred.
As UK1 said, the debate got strident when the rich versus poor card was played & I remarked that a particular poster had an inordinate number of posts & requests for polls without ever having travelled with Silversea.
The response to that (which has also been deleted) indicated that they thought this was a personal attack & the rest (as it were) is history. As best I can recall it, my final post on the subject - which Richard refused to let on the Boards for an unspecified reason - enquired as to whether the poster in question was posting to stir up controversy rather than taking part in a discussion among past & imminent cruisers.
I hope this makes things a bit clearer.
And in closing, I too am still waiting for the Moderator to break his silence regarding all this

Dave

[English Voyager]

From memory,one of the posters felt that they had been personally insulted,and did not one tell another to shut up.
I felt that the exchanges were "lively",but certainly did not warrant deletion.
It is really for the Moderator to explain his actions.

[uk1]

Absolutely right English Voyager.

But to emphasise - if Richard with the benefit of hindsight - and we've all our understanding that quick decisions are made and not ALL will be right - apologises - then in my eyes he becomes a hero. If he fails to explain or respond - and there is no button to complain about the moderator - then he loses the respect and support of those that give time to post.

[Dave From Oz]

Thanks for jogging my memory, English Cruiser.

As I remember, I quoted Tom Lehrer, who once remarked that "if some-one can't communicate the least they can do is to shut up."

It seemed appropriate at the time.

Dave

[martynk]

I read the thread before the deletions were made and found it interesting. I saw nothing to warrant deletion of posts. Its a bit too restrictive if we can only post when we agree with other posters!!

I find this board intersting because there are differing opinions. I support uk1 in his request for explanantion.

Martyn

[bdmarine]

I am delighted to find myself actually agreeing with UK1. It appears that we have found a common ground besides our appreciation for Silversea.

[uk1]

Thanks to posters supporting the desire to understand why the deletions were made.

Martynk and bdmarine (he might of been bought and swayed from hearing about my travels to Atlanta - and my undisclosed affection for all things peachtree, big chicken and marietta, and dahlanooga - but that's a different story, I'm detracting from my new found grumpy reputation) - are thanked for their support.

I reported/complained about my own post requesting a response from Richard (or I assume anyone standing in) to explain what's happened.

I know it's trivial - but the withdrawal of free speech is not something any of us should tolerate lightly.

Thanks again for the notes of support for OzDave and moi.

uk1

[Dave From Oz]

Just to echo UK1, thank you to those who have voiced their concerns regarding this matter.

In the overall scheme of things it seems a small quibble, but to me (and I suspect to many others) this board is a refreshing change from the everyday life. It does seem a pity that this has not only happened but has been allowed to fester for want of a response from the moderator.

If I wanted politics, studied silences and sleight of hand, I'd stay at work, not try to relax & share my interests with other enthusiasts. The generous sharing of members has enabled me to choose the Silversea voyage which is right for me & to know what I am going to experience. The thought that politically incorrect posts may well have disappeared from other threads is rather worrying.

It would be good to think that Richard would resolve this before someone puts a countdown clock on how long this has been allowed to continue.

Dave

[English Voyager]

Unfortunately,I am of an age when things are either partially remembered,or not at all.
Did not the "aggrieved" party enquire as to how to make a complaint about insulting messages,and were they not advised to hit the "report this post" button?
Perhaps the individual concerned did complain.

[uk1]

"georgia ...... georgia ..... always on my mind ...... please let Richard ease our mind ......!"

[martynk]

It occurred to me that Richard may be away from the board and not realise that an explanation was required. So, I just reported this thread to see if that encourages Laura or someone to respond.

Martyn

[uk1]

Martynk, thanks - you're right - that can be the only rational explanation.

By the way ... it was me that suggested that it would be easier to move the Stones than dig the tunnel under. Andover and Wiltshire are brothers.

UK1 for Wilts.

[martynk]

uk1, the stones' original purpose (not known by many) was to serve as a marker point for the tunnel builders. It would seem perverse to move them now!

Martyn

[uk1]

Martyn,

Sorry you're wrong. It was the Irish that floated them over from Wales. Anyway. I offered. I have a large back yard. My wife can do teas. A bit of a heave here and there and bobs your uncle. We could make a bob or two and we could all go down the a303 without all those wobbly mondeos with boxes on the top.

[martynk]

uk1,

if you can include mondeo-free on the 303 in the deal I'm all for it. Solstice would be good, it bound to be quiet then.

Martyn

[uk1]

Well .... I do have this cunning plan.

You know how when you pull the plug out in the Northern Hemisphere, the water always goes down anti-clockwise? Well have you noticed that when the US tour groups go round the Stones - THEY GO ROUND ANTI-CLOCKWISE TOO!? Well my plan is to ship the Stones to Australia. The question is will they go round the Stone's clockwise? I've always wondered and the A303 gives us a great scientific opportunity.

Anyway, back to Richard. I've just tapped my watch and there's no answer yet. Dum de dum de dum de dum. Dum de dum de do do.

Anyone there?

[SteveBear]

A few points:

1. Is it known that Richard deleted the posts, or is this just an assumption because he is the nominal host of this board? Based on personal experience, I would consider it more likely that Laura performed the deletions.

2. Perhaps because of its origins within AOL, the CC site is more rigid than other message-boards in striving to keep its contents cruise-centered, polite, bland, and anodyne. See Laura's policy statements on the "Community Guidelines" board for specifics.

3. I can't find the citation right now, but my recollection is that Laura and the hosts will not publicly discuss reasons for deletions, but will respond to private emails requesting clarification.

4. Bottom line--it's their sandbox, not yours; but there are other sandboxes.

http://mywebsite.register.com/db1/00019/steve.snugglebear.name/_uimages/LargerGrumpyBear.gif

Run for your lives; it's a grumpily pedantic bear.

Matsonia 6/59
Silver Cloud 12/00
Harmony 5/01
Silver Whisper 9/01
Ecstasy 12/01
Deutschland 7/02
Silver Shadow 11/02
Royal Clipper 4-5/03
Silver Wind 12/03-1/04

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until Inside Passage on Cruise West's Spirit of Discovery.

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<param name="year" value=2004>
<param name="month" value=08>
<param name="day" value=27>
<param name="hour" value=18>
</applet>
until Svalbard Circumnavigation on Akademik Vavilov.

[Seas the Day]

I, for one, am finding this conversation interesting and amusing.

I don't recall when, sometime recently, there was a post from someone that expressed concern that NOTHING EVER HAPPENS on the Silversea board. No activity. Few comments. Etc... The question was asked if Silversea cruisers were as dull as the board (at least that's what I recall.)

Now, we have our very own misunderstandings, political agendas, intrigue and intra-member angst. We've moved up in the world...

[luxlady]

How about that champagne? How about those toiletries? How about that cavier?

Anybody noticed a DETERIORATION in what is supplied? (LOL LOL LOL)

Just kibbitzing to remind all that we haven't been totally free of controversy..... http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Glenda Madrid

[uk1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SteveBear:
A few points:

1. Is it known that Richard deleted the posts, or is this just an assumption because he is the nominal host of this board? Based on personal experience, I would consider it more likely that Laura performed the deletions.

3. I can't find the citation right now, but my recollection is that Laura and the hosts will not publicly discuss reasons for deletions, but will respond to private emails requesting clarification.

/[QUOTE]

Well, OzDave and I have asked for a reply and none has been forthcoming. It would be obtuse to (a) run an internet forum and (b) delete messages because they're thought to be abbrasive if in the process they themselves are both stifling free speech and being rude!

Enough people of principle reading this thread have asked for a response so let's hope that either Richard or Laura or someone else has the principles and integrity to explain what happened and why.

[SteveBear]

uk1--

Listen to Historian Bear. This battle has occurred several times before. The administrator and hosts always win. They are implacable. I've gone through it before myself, and was suspended from the board for several months for my efforts. As a result, I now post here a great deal less than I did a few years ago, and spend more time on other, more freewheeling boards instead. Since such a suggestion is prohibited, I will refrain from suggesting to you that you email me for the names of some other boards.

http://mywebsite.register.com/db1/00019/steve.snugglebear.name/_uimages/LargerGrumpyBear.gif

Run for your lives; it's a grumpily pedantic bear.

Matsonia 6/59
Silver Cloud 12/00
Harmony 5/01
Silver Whisper 9/01
Ecstasy 12/01
Deutschland 7/02
Silver Shadow 11/02
Royal Clipper 4-5/03
Silver Wind 12/03-1/04

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<param name="year" value=2004>
<param name="month" value=08>
<param name="day" value=07>
<param name="hour" value=18>
</applet>
until Inside Passage on Cruise West's Spirit of Discovery.

<applet code="****************" CODEBASE="http://*************/java-sys" width="203" height="25">
<param name="font" value="lcdb0">
<param name="year" value=2004>
<param name="month" value=08>
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<param name="hour" value=18>
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until Svalbard Circumnavigation on Akademik Vavilov.

[bully]

Ah..., another flare-up, this time on our sedately sleepy and deadeningly dignified SilverSea board.

Cruise Critic is the QM2 of all cruise boards. Perhaps she will go down Titanically, being impaled on the Great Iceberg of Indignation.

But until that much anticipated day, behold Cruise Critic.

Love her or leave her.

You cannot win.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[uk1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Cruise Critic is the QM2 of all cruise boards. Perhaps she will go down Titanically, being impaled on the Great Iceberg of Indignation.

You cannot win.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Complacency about the customer is the most usual cause of a market leader. Once an alternative board gathers steam over time - the combined effect of moderator complacency and user migration will bring with it it's own rewards.

The silence from the board is an insult to ALL users.

[mcavanaugh]

Does this board not recognize that the posters are intelligent, cruise enthusiastistic, and PAYING customers who are interested in the many and varied comments of fellow cruisers. This deletion problem and(refusal of "official" response) is tolling a "death knell" to this board? Maxine

[SteveBear]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This deletion problem and (refusal of "official" response) is tolling a "death knell" to this board <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that were true, this board, indeed all of CruiseCritic, would have expired many analogous brouhahæ ago.

http://mywebsite.register.com/db1/00019/steve.snugglebear.name/_uimages/LargerGrumpyBear.gif

Run for your lives; it's a grumpily pedantic bear.

Matsonia 6/59
Silver Cloud 12/00
Harmony 5/01
Silver Whisper 9/01
Ecstasy 12/01
Deutschland 7/02
Silver Shadow 11/02
Royal Clipper 4-5/03
Silver Wind 12/03-1/04

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<param name="font" value="lcdb0">
<param name="year" value=2004>
<param name="month" value=08>
<param name="day" value=07>
<param name="hour" value=18>
</applet>
until Inside Passage on Cruise West's Spirit of Discovery.

<applet code="****************" CODEBASE="http://*************/java-sys" width="203" height="25">
<param name="font" value="lcdb0">
<param name="year" value=2004>
<param name="month" value=08>
<param name="day" value=27>
<param name="hour" value=18>
</applet>
until Svalbard Circumnavigation on Akademik Vavilov.

[uk1]

Well the rules say:

We are a community of folks who love to cruise and we all benefit from the exchange of advice that takes place here, and consider ourselves a haven on the internet for this purpose. Our Cruise Board is a cooperative effort which depends on all of you to make it work well............If you post questions, please try to take the time to answer other members' questions as well.

In addition, we'll do our best to notify posters when one of their postings has been removed. However, due to the high volume of postings this isn't always possible. Please send an e-mail requesting information regarding the removal of your posting(s) to our Community Manager by using the Contact Us link at the bottom of the message board page. We will only discuss your own postings with you, and will verify your identity by comparing the e-mail address you use to request information with the e-mail address you used while registering. Users who have used a bogus e-mail address will not receive a response.

Whilst reserving the right to delete - not explaining why certainly doesn't place them within the spirit of their own rules does it. Prticularly when so many people have asked for it. Their adheence to their own aims do seem rather empty in this context.

[SteveBear]

Having been trained as an historian, I am always suspicious of ellipses within a quotation.

Deletion criteria may be found at the following two locations:

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=927093444&f=549097554&m=172098725

and

http://messages.cruisecritic.com/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=927093444&f=549097554&m=7263008477

http://mywebsite.register.com/db1/00019/steve.snugglebear.name/_uimages/LargerGrumpyBear.gif

Run for your lives; it's a grumpily pedantic bear.

Matsonia 6/59
Silver Cloud 12/00
Harmony 5/01
Silver Whisper 9/01
Ecstasy 12/01
Deutschland 7/02
Silver Shadow 11/02
Royal Clipper 4-5/03
Silver Wind 12/03-1/04

<applet code="****************" CODEBASE="http://*************/java-sys" width="203" height="25">
<param name="font" value="lcdb0">
<param name="year" value=2004>
<param name="month" value=08>
<param name="day" value=07>
<param name="hour" value=18>
</applet>
until Inside Passage on Cruise West's Spirit of Discovery.

<applet code="****************" CODEBASE="http://*************/java-sys" width="203" height="25">
<param name="font" value="lcdb0">
<param name="year" value=2004>
<param name="month" value=08>
<param name="day" value=27>
<param name="hour" value=18>
</applet>
until Svalbard Circumnavigation on Akademik Vavilov.

[goeurope]

>>This deletion problem and (refusal of "official" response) is tolling a "death knell" to this board<<

I wouldn't go that far, but a heavy hand does encourage the formation of message boards elsewhere. The Renaissance New Board was created by unhappy Cruise Critic members, and that board--now the Oceania forum at Yahoo--has considerably more activity than the equivalent forum here in spite of Yahoo's annoying forum software.

--
Durant Imboden
Europeforvisitors.com

[uk1]

OK, my request to the moderators is I think honourable and simple to respond to.

There is clearly a reason why the posts have been deleted. The rules say that posts can be deleted for a number of reasons and due to the workload reasons may not be provided. In this case, even assuming that the workload is excpetional I'm suggesting that not responding gives the impression of arrogant disregard to those people that have reasonably requested the explanation. I'm not asking for anything that involves anything more than basic respect and consideration to supporters of the forum and a few keystrokes. This would then draw a line under this.

How about it Richard/Laura?

[Cruise Miriam]

If you have a question about one of your own posts, please email me directly at ldrscruisemir7@aol.com.

Host Miriam
Community Supervisor
ldrscruisemir7@aol.com

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