Jeans in the dinning room [Archive] - Cruise Critic Message Boards

RedmondCruiser

May 9th, 2006, 04:43 PM

Since I don't read all posts on this board this subject my have been broached earlier.

Just off a 21 day Panama Canal Cruise on the Westerdam. It seems that in the last 4 or 5 years something has changed on each and every cruise. On this cruise it was the elimination of flambe in the dinning room and the lack of tote bags. I did notice that there were several people in the dinning room in jeans on casual and informal nights. Then I noticed that the definition of Casual had changed and "NO Jeans" was no longer there.

Now there are some very stylish people in jeans but this new policy also brings out the people who will stretch the limits of propriety. On a longer cruise you see more tuxes - not on this cruise. Possibly the tuxes and elegant dresses will be a thing of the past. I hope not.

Having some dress codes made a cruise special. I hope that dinner will not become someone in jeans and a tank top in the main dinning room. I thought that was what the casual dinner in the Lido was for.

middle-aged mom

May 9th, 2006, 05:46 PM

Hello, Redmond Cruiser. I see you are a sailor from our neck of the woods! Please forgive me if I make a special request; I hope you don't mind. I would dearly love to hear about your cruise. Please indulge me:)

How great that you just got off a 21-day trip on Westerdam! You visited a very interesting part of the world. Did you have a good time? What ports did you enjoy visiting the most? What recommendations could you give a brand new cruiser like me, who will be travelling on HAL for the first time this summer? I am very curious to know about your recent experiences going through the Panama Canal. That is where we are going for our Christmas/New Year's.

I would love to hear about all the good things on HAL that keep you coming back. We are very much looking forward to our first experience with cruising. Thanks very much for any advice you can pass on!:)

Isn't the spring weather here great? All the rhodies are in full bloom! Enjoy! Welcome home!:)

Karin (from Mercer Island)
aka "middle-aged mom"

jhannah

May 9th, 2006, 05:59 PM

I was also surprised to read that the "no jeans" is gone. The "Know Before You Go" booklet we got a few weeks ago just prohibits T-shirts, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts ... in the dining room, Lido Restaurant, or public areas in the evening.

We had flambee on our Oosterdam cruise last week. It's just not prepared tableside like it used to be, but over in a more open area and away from people.

sail7seas

May 9th, 2006, 07:18 PM

What do you mean no tote bags?
We have gotten the usual fun HAL totes on every cruise we have taken....including all cruises this year as recently as April 2 on Ryndam.

Scrumpy

May 9th, 2006, 07:25 PM

kryos

May 9th, 2006, 08:02 PM

Because we had already planned to dress up, exceeding the dress code, I had not looked at my "Know Before You GO" until I saw this post. I do not see the word "jeans" mentioned anywhere at all... It's just not there.
Yep, the times ... they are a changin' ...

I would imagine that the new "code" is just that the passenger looks presentable ... and, of course, is having a good time. Whether or not they choose to "gussy up" is entirely up to them.

And ... maybe to some extent, that is a good thing?

For the record, I will say that I never wear jeans to the dining room on HAL. On Princess, I wore them once (a nice pair) and that was because it was the last night of the cruise and our luggage had to be outside the cabin before second seating dinner. So, I had no choice. I wore exactly what I was planning to wear for the flight home the next morning. A goodly amount of other people were similarly attired.

But, normally, I don't think jeans are appropriate for the formal dining room, though I would consider them fine for the Lido ... even at night.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

May 9th, 2006, 08:03 PM

What do you mean no tote bags?
We have gotten the usual fun HAL totes on every cruise we have taken....including all cruises this year as recently as April 2 on Ryndam.

We got them on the Amsterdam in January as well. They were delivered to our cabins a day or so before our first port stop in Hawaii.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Scrumpy

May 9th, 2006, 08:12 PM

NoNoNanette

May 9th, 2006, 10:13 PM

I'm guessing that HAL is trying to change their image.

I had always been under the impression that HAL was:

#1- An "old folks' cruiseline"
#2- Expensive

I've learned differently, and am excited to be booked on the Volendam in December.

*I'll be 46, my husband 61.

*We're paying NO MORE for this cruise than past cruises, all things considered....nights, balcony, mini-suite, etc.

Although we never wear jeans on a cruise, we couldn't care any less how others dress. (We'll continue to dress-up if we visit the dining room.)

Although the "old liners" here may hate the direction HAL is going in, from a marketing standpoint, HAL is probably on the right track. I'd love to sit in on a marketing meeting and hear some demographics! :)

Himself

May 9th, 2006, 10:21 PM

Jeans are what I wear to wash the car. Why do we have to be so grubby on Informal nights. Jeans are informal grub wear.

peaches from georgia

May 9th, 2006, 10:28 PM

With jeans now allowed in the dining room I would love to know exactly what the new image is that HAL is trying to promote.

lougee1043

May 9th, 2006, 10:31 PM

just taken off the hal board -- dress code site

Evening dress falls into three distinct categories. Each night a daily program will be delivered to your stateroom announcing the suggested dress for the following evening. Comfortable, relaxed clothing is fine for evenings designated as casual; however, T-shirts, jeans, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are not allowed in the dining room, Lido restaurant, or public areas during the evening hours. During informal nights, dresses or pantsuits for women and jackets (tie optional) for men are standard.

please note the highlighted word

Himself

May 9th, 2006, 10:45 PM

I just hope it is enforced!

jhannah

May 9th, 2006, 11:19 PM

Websites are not always updated as needed. The "Know Before You Go" booklet produced by HAL does NOT have the word 'jeans' in there.

jhannah

May 9th, 2006, 11:30 PM

21339

This is from the booklet we received a few weeks ago.

RedmondCruiser

May 9th, 2006, 11:33 PM

Just went to HAL web site and it still lists Jeans as not acceptable in the dinning room. I web site may be incorrect - look at the problems they are still having with the immigration form. On the Westerdam the word JEANS was omitted - each and every night. It may be a trial baloon but I doubt it. Everything in this world is getting more and more casual. I prefer the old standard but time marches on.

What I did not like is the people who stretch the envelope. There were a few in the dinning room who had on what looked like work pants with and old shirt and clip on suspenders. The guy looked like he just got off his tractor. On the Oosterdam, last May, one fellow was in the dinning room with a t - shirt and a baseball cap. There should be some limits that are enforced.

Krazy Kruizers

May 10th, 2006, 06:26 AM

There was never anything mentioned about not wearing jeans in the dining room on our 15 day Amsterdam cruise. And we did see a couple of people wear jeans into the dining room on casual days. But I can't answer for the formal or informal nights.

Even though the area captains turned away as many man as possible on informal nights because they weren't wearing jackets, a couple still managed to get into the dining room. There was a big card on the table outside the dining room on those nights that read "Jackets Required".

Krazy Kruizers

May 10th, 2006, 06:28 AM

We got our tote bag on our recent Amsterdam cruise.

Has anyone heard if HAL got a new company to make them yet??

MikeT718

May 10th, 2006, 09:09 AM

What do you mean no tote bags?
We have gotten the usual fun HAL totes on every cruise we have taken....including all cruises this year as recently as April 2 on Ryndam.

I have posted this on other threads but the tote bags are a problem.As per Mr. James Deering, on our April O'Dam cruise, told us that the company in China that used to make them told HAL that they were shipped when in fact they were not..This left HAL short and looking for a new company to make them

noblepa

May 10th, 2006, 09:39 AM

Are the tote bags supposed to be given to all cabins, or just suites? We have been on two HAL cruises now and have not gotten tote bags on either cruise. We were in an OV cabin on the Veendam and last month in a balcony cabin on the Oosterdam.

Paul Noble

jhannah

May 10th, 2006, 10:16 AM

A tote bag is supposed to be provided to each cabin, regardless of category.

Krazy Kruizers

May 10th, 2006, 10:39 AM

Even on our first cruise on HAL we got the canvas tote bag.

sail7seas

May 10th, 2006, 10:52 AM

That's too bad you missed out on getting your tote bag both cruises, nobelpa.

Next cruise, if you don't find it in your cabin by the evening before your first port, speak with your cabin steward. They leave them in the cabins when they do the evening clean up/turn down.

kryos

May 10th, 2006, 12:24 PM

Although the "old liners" here may hate the direction HAL is going in, from a marketing standpoint, HAL is probably on the right track. I'd love to sit in on a marketing meeting and hear some demographics! :)
Same here, Nanette, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at some of those marketing meetings.

It sounds to me like HAL is trying to attract the younger cruiser who often doesn't want to get all dressed up. Especially on the Vista-class ships ... these are the cruisers of the future. All of the older folks who sail the longer itineraries on the more elegant R and S class ships will one day grow too old to travel or will die off, so HAL probably sees this new brand of cruiser as their future. Also, with all new ship builds being on the large "mega-ship" size, one day we're not gonna have these smaller ships to sail any longer. HAL will surely one day have to retire them. That fact will force some of HAL's more traditional cruisers to abandon the line in favor of other smaller lines where these kinds of ships are still in the fleet. So, it's the younger non-traditionalist cruisers that will become HAL's primary market ... and many of those have no attachment to the "golden years of cruising."

I just hope HAL enforces some sort of "level" of appropriateness with the jeans ... like they must be neat, and not full of holes, tattered, etc.

Personally, I've seen people wearing some very nice jeans that would be totally appropriate for the dining room. I've seen people in jeans with appliques on them, reinstones, sparkles, etc. They look very attractive.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

May 10th, 2006, 12:39 PM

I'm really not anti-jeans, but I could see where it could become a problem. I don't want to look at someone in holey jeans or low-riders where you can see their butt crack. Sorry to be so blunt, but I read a Dear Abby the other day where a diner wrote about a dinner out where he was facing a person who did literally have their half their rear end showing and I think that would be kind of gross and distracting...
I read that piece too ... and had to chuckle. The person who wrote the letter, as I recall, didn't say what kind of a restaurant he was in. If it was a nice restaurant, then I wholeheartedly agree with him. That would be disgusting to look at while enjoying a nice dinner by candle light. But it sounds to me like he was in a roadside diner or a Denny's type establishment. In that case, I don't understand what his gripe was. Those places only require you to be decently covered ... no bare feet, bare chests, etc. That other diner was perfectly within her rights to wear a pair of "low riders" and if it bothered the person who wrote that letter to Abby, my response to him would have been "why were you looking then?" He should have just asked the waitress to move him to another table if he didn't like the view. Saying something to the other diner, and provoking an argument would have probably just gotten him and his wife tossed out of the restaurant ... as well it should.

Blue skies ...

--rita

peaches from georgia

May 10th, 2006, 12:55 PM

I really think HAL needs to change what they say about the main dining room in the brochures and on the website. I think the expectations of pax reading HAL's present description of their elegant DR will not be met if the ships start allowing jeans.

There are 'elegant' restaurants and there are 'jeans allowed' restaurants; rarely if ever are they the same place.

From HAL's website: The Elegant Main Dining Room

Each evening as the dinner hour approaches, the melodious call of the chime master invites guests to the main Dining Room where another incredible experience awaits. Servers greet guests and present menus of sumptuous five-course selections, from appetizers and drinks to entrées and dessert, while a quartet plays soft dinner music. Savor seared sea scallops, filet mignon topped with crab and Hollandaise, and wines rated "excellent" by The Wine Spectator. Fresh herbs and imaginative combinations make lighter fare an equally tempting choice. We gladly offer a kosher menu and can easily meet special dietary needs upon request*. Guests can also expect:

Elegant five-course meals featuring signature dishes
Menu design under the direction of Master Chef Rudi Sodamin
Executive chefs who have been inducted into the prestigious Confrérie de la Chaîne des Rôtisseurs, an international food and wine society
Fine Rosenthal China and sparkling stemware on crisp white table linens
Two expert servers per table, selected for their proven abilities to remember guest preferences
Knowledgeable wine stewards adept at pairing wine with food
Surrounding panoramic ocean views, as well as fine art and antiques

LDinCT

May 10th, 2006, 02:06 PM

Don't flame me but yes I do wear jeans on casual nights in the DR. They were def. allowed on my last HAL cruise. Now these are nice, really expensive jeans, dark color, no holes etc. And I certainly wasn't wearing them with a tee shirt or tank top. Like it or not, there are very few restaurants you can't wear them in NYC for dinner these days. Don't know why this gets everyone so worked up. There are many other casual outfits that look much worse.

Atomica

May 10th, 2006, 02:22 PM

This is a very interesting thread. Somehow, the word 'jeans' has become associated with the word 'slob', or worse.

On casual nights, I wear my jeans to the dining room. And I am not alone. I have seen plenty of people wearing jeans to the dining room, and not a single one of them, myself included, looked the least bit 'slobbish'. On Formal/Informal nights, I don't wear them. I wear dress pants, and dress accordingly.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see why everyone is jumping to the conclusion that by allowing jeans on a few nights out of the week, that suddenly all these grubby, ill-dressed, ill-mannered people will be coming out of the woodwork. Even on NCL, where I really missed formal nights and dress codes, I can't think of anyone that was dressed THAT badly.

Personally, I have a bigger issue with ballcaps in the dining room than jeans.

jhannah

May 10th, 2006, 02:27 PM

Personally, I have a bigger issue with ballcaps in the dining room than jeans. And herein lies the issue. Each of us has a personal level of tolerance for what we feel is appropriate fine dining attire. You draw the line at ballcaps. I draw the line at jeans. I'm not saying folks who wear them are slobs. (I wear jeans quite a bit ... just not out to dinner.) But I still do not believe jeans are appropriate fine dining attire -- regardless of how fancy-schmancy the label is.

Scrumpy

May 10th, 2006, 02:28 PM

I personally don't think of jeans as necessarily grubby. However, ask my grandparents and they have a totally different perspective. They do not care for jeans - period!

My concern is the style of the jeans. I don't mind seeing thongs at the beach or pool - heck, go topless. But, I don't want to look at someone's rear end while I eat. Hopefully, the whole lowrider thing is going out of style. I did read of an even more disgusting trend on the fashion section of cc that I hope does not take hold. It involves MEN going commando and wearing jeans that sag well below the hairline - if you get my drift... not appetizing dinnertime viewing.

Yes, ball caps at the table are tacky, too.

Atomica

May 10th, 2006, 02:30 PM

It involves MEN going commando and wearing jeans that sag well below the hairline - if you get my drift... not appetizing dinnertime viewing.

Scrumpy, couldn't agree with you more!!! lol

And Jim made a very good point - like so many other things, each person has his/her own tolerance level. I don't think that HAL will go the way of NCL anytime soon in terms of dining dress code (at least I hope not!)

Scrumpy

May 10th, 2006, 02:40 PM

Rita,
Maybe people dress more casually here, but we've been out to pretty nice places and seen women wear expensive and low-cut pants and jeans. I've never been subjected to what the guy who wrote Dear Abby saw, but I've seen the tops of more thongs than I ever dreamed I would - even in department stores, now that I think of it. And, you'd think they'd have a dress code for employees. People push the envelope and odds are that some of them will end up on a ship.

I guess I need to broaden my horizons. I don't think of butt cleavage quite the same way as I do bust cleavage. Maybe I should? It isn't likely I'll come to grips with that one for a while, so I'm hoping the style itself will change and I won't be looking at 5 inches of someone else's rear at dinner. It is kinda hard NOT to look when something out of the norm happens; I have a friend whose pants slide down when she's doing physical stuff. I tease her mercilessly. And, with some people, it'd probably be a good appetite suppressant, LOL!!! Like I said before, I rarely notice this stuff, so hopefully if it happens while we're around, I will be oblivious.

Curly57

May 10th, 2006, 02:48 PM

I read that piece too ... and had to chuckle. The person who wrote the letter, as I recall, didn't say what kind of a restaurant he was in. If it was a nice restaurant, then I wholeheartedly agree with him. That would be disgusting to look at while enjoying a nice dinner by candle light. But it sounds to me like he was in a roadside diner or a Denny's type establishment. --rita

Hi Rita,
Last time my DH and I went to Olive Garden he traded me places because I was in a draft, then said he didn't like the view. I turned around and a big butt crack was showing above a young women's low rider jeans. It was not good. We talked and enjoyed our dinner could have done without that indecency. I wish everyone would dress appropriate for their activity and location.
-curly

HALOnlyCruiser

May 10th, 2006, 03:22 PM

I think the tote bag shortage was a temporary thing. Not that I need any more.....they used to leave one for every pax in the cabin, and we took all three kids several times, so we have about a gabillion (well...maybe only half a gabillion). We have several different designs, and one year in Alaska had ones with totem figues on it. (Neat!)
I am saddened by the lax dress code enforcement. Even if jeans are allowed (and there are some pretty un-dungaree [boy, am I old] women's jeans available) I have never seen anyone turned away from the dining roon, no matter how unsuitably they are dressed. One formal night on our first cruise, a man showed up in a white t-shrt with a "tux" printed on the front...he got in. Another cringe-inducing practice is men who wear tractor caps everywhere (even in the shower, I'm guessing) and are not turned away. On the other hand, I can only imagine the fuss that would be raised at the Front Office if someone were told they could not enter the dining room in their current attire. I can hear it now, "I paid good money for this cruise, yadda, yadda......" Be that as it may, I feel uncomfortable when I am not following the dress convention. Remember the days of "Elegantly Casual"? Nobody knew what it meant, exactly, but it sounded great! I guess the Gen-Xers aren't as uncomfortable if they are not following the code.

NHCruisr

May 10th, 2006, 03:54 PM

We were on the Oosterdam in March. We saw several people in the dining room with jeans. I spoke with the Maitre'd about it and he said that enforcing the no jeans policy is becoming a losing battle. He seemed upset that people coming onboard this beautiful ship were such slobs (these are not the words he used but his feelings were obvious). My experience is diminished by people who are sloppy and do not respect their fellow passengers and the cruise experience. I know this sounds harsh, but I really do not like to see people looking like they've stepped off a tractor dining next to me in the dining room. We also saw people in shorts and flip flops in the show lounge on formal night. Not cool. Many of the jeans we've seen onboard are dirty and torn, clearly they didn't get that way on the ship. Who would pack something like that to go on a cruise?

In talking with crew, I've heard expressed their distain for some of the passengers dress and lack of manners. The term they've used is "trailer park." (note: this is not my term) I give them a lot of credit for being as professional and pleasant as they are to these people.

We did not get tote bags on the Oosterdam. There is some problem with the production in China or the shipping. We did get a bag on the Zuiderdam last year.

cruisequeen10

May 10th, 2006, 03:58 PM

I live in jeans. But when the dress code does not allow jeans, I simply do not wear them. I think that HAL being a classy line, would stick up and say "no jeans" in the dining room. Period. End of story. On my next cruise in July to Alaska on the Zuiderdam, I am going to adhere and do not wear the comfortable jeans to the dining room. Even if you are allowed, I am going to show respect and dress like everyone else on the appropriate "dress" night.

csg99

May 10th, 2006, 04:15 PM

I think HAL could take note of what's happened in the American workplace. Several years ago "casual Friday" came into being and many companies and businesses participated. Each workplace had their own interpretation of "casual" (some banned sneakers, T's, etc). Some companies even pronounced it such a success that they added an additional day each week for casual wear. Fast forward to present day. There have been numerous articles about how businesses are now moving away from any casual days because they found that the attitude of the employees seemed to mirror their attire on those days. I personally LOVE our casual day each week (that's the day we use for moving files, cleaning our cubicles, etc) but my employer has let us know that if some staff members continue to abuse it (tank tops, beach flip-flops) they will definitely do away with it. I agree that some jeans are more attractive and expensive than normal "casual" slacks or pants, but we all have to be realistic and admit that there will be a lot of people who will show up in their worn, dingy "comfy" jeans. Will it ruin my cruise? Of course not. But it absolutely does detract from the whole experience of dining in the lovely dining rooms on HAL ships.
JMHO

lougee1043

May 10th, 2006, 05:02 PM

We saw several people in the dining room with jeans. I spoke with the Maitre'd about it and he said that enforcing the no jeans policy is becoming a losing battle. He seemed upset that people coming onboard this beautiful ship were such slobs (these are not the words he used but his feelings were obvious). .

lose the battle but win the war --- keep enforcing the dress code

on our celebrity cruise we were talking to a d/r capt who said that they will only enforce the dress code if they have the complete backing of the maitre d -------he said the pax that is turned away for a dress code violation will in most cases go to the front desk to complain and that complaint is turned over to the maitre d-----------without his backing the captain get in trouble

NoNoNanette

May 10th, 2006, 05:17 PM

Same here, Nanette, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at some of those marketing meetings.

It sounds to me like HAL is trying to attract the younger cruiser who often doesn't want to get all dressed up. Especially on the Vista-class ships ... these are the cruisers of the future. All of the older folks who sail the longer itineraries on the more elegant R and S class ships will one day grow too old to travel or will die off, so HAL probably sees this new brand of cruiser as their future. Also, with all new ship builds being on the large "mega-ship" size, one day we're not gonna have these smaller ships to sail any longer. HAL will surely one day have to retire them. That fact will force some of HAL's more traditional cruisers to abandon the line in favor of other smaller lines where these kinds of ships are still in the fleet. So, it's the younger non-traditionalist cruisers that will become HAL's primary market ... and many of those have no attachment to the "golden years of cruising."

I just hope HAL enforces some sort of "level" of appropriateness with the jeans ... like they must be neat, and not full of holes, tattered, etc.

Personally, I've seen people wearing some very nice jeans that would be totally appropriate for the dining room. I've seen people in jeans with appliques on them, reinstones, sparkles, etc. They look very attractive.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Something tells me that you have some marketing background, Rita! (As well as being very perceptive) ;)

My background is newspaper advertising/public relations and marketing. I tend to analyze these situations from a "bottom line" approach, rather than an emotional one. :)

kryos

May 10th, 2006, 06:07 PM

Something tells me that you have some marketing background, Rita! (As well as being very perceptive) ;)

My background is newspaper advertising/public relations and marketing. I tend to analyze these situations from a "bottom line" approach, rather than an emotional one. :)
I work for a newspaper myself ... in IT, but I've been involved in various marketing projects/focus groups in my career with them (close to 30 years). Just like I've said on these boards in the past, believe me ... if HAL's customer majority wanted those dress codes enforced in the dining room ... HAL would be strictly enforcing them to the letter. They often don't enforce them and that is because the chief honchos in the dining room have probably been instructed by Seattle to get the lay of the land first. If there's a lot of people not dressing to code, let it go.

I hear tell, though, that you don't pull that crap on the QE2. That is a very, very formal ship and if you want to dine in the dining room, and appear on the public decks in the evening, you must adhere to code. Obviously, the folks who sail the QE2 must demand that ... and thus the cruise line complies. Understandable.

My experience on the QE2 will be interesting, that's for sure. Actually, I'm looking forward to it, believe it or not.

Blue skies ...

--rita

MeOhMy

May 10th, 2006, 06:56 PM

What I do not understand is how people end up on ships with dress codes more stringent than they are willing to live with. Surely there are other ships with a dress code more to their liking.

Our TA recommended Westerdam to us because he knew we enjoy a more formal ship. Coming from W TX it is fun to play dress up for a few weeks a year.

But from what I am hearing, he was behind the curve.

I must say out here we have different levels of jeans, for lack of a better word. I have a "dress" pair that is dark color, straight leg and always, always dry cleaned. You wear them with a blouse and jacket and your most expensive silver or turqoise jewelry and I must say that can look more dressed up than just plain "casual."

But, truly, what is wrong with rules? If you are going to have nearly 2000 people on, say W'dam, some rules are simply going to be necessary or you will have chaos and no one will have a good time.

Or am I terminally old fashioned?

herb

May 10th, 2006, 09:03 PM

I don't even own a pair of jeans because I find them very uncomfortable so I won't join in on the ever so popular "jeans yes or no" issue... but I do hope they have those tote bags in the cabin. DW is looking forward to that :D

Moogy

May 10th, 2006, 09:41 PM

Coming from W TX it is fun to play dress up for a few weeks a year.

Where are you in West Texas? :) Although I am now living in Austin, I was born in Midland, and my husband and I are in the process of moving back to west Texas--to a ranch 10 miles north of Eldorado, TX.

OFF-TOPIC COMMENT: (Eldorado is a tiny town that is currently famous for a nearby compound belonging to the FLDS polygamist cult. That compound is the suspected hideout of FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs, who was recently added to the FBI's 10-Most-Wanted List.)

BTW, even though I am a native Texan, I rarely wear jeans even at appropriate times....they are just TOO hot.

Moogy

MeOhMy

May 10th, 2006, 09:50 PM

I live in San Angelo. I know very well where Eldorado is. I do like jeans in the winter, they are just heavy enough. I moved here 12 years ago and still have the winter coat I moved down here with. It really just isn't needed. I save to visit family up north and they tease me about it unmercifully. But I have better things to do with my money, like cruise.

Off topic, sorry.

Moogy

May 11th, 2006, 12:23 AM

MeOhMy,

We will be neighbors soon! My attorney husband will be moving his practice to San Angelo, since it is the nearest city to our new country abode. :) We recently spent several days looking at office space in your fair city.

Too bad we won't be on the same cruise. I am on the Oosterdam 5/20, and I think you are on the Westerdam (?).

I enjoy dressing up also, and I got a couple of new dresses for formal nights. Have a great cruise!

Moogy

fridayeyes

May 11th, 2006, 02:27 PM

Now that the 'no jeans' language is gone, I personally will wear 'nice' jeans on casual nights if that's what I happen to have worn during the day. I find that many 'nice' jeans outfits look better than some of the knit 'capri and t-shirt' style outfits worn by many. Yes some will wear tatty jeans, but frankly, they always have and they always will. The problem, IMHO, isn't with the fabric named 'denim', it's with certain individuals.

Cheers,

Friday

sail7seas

May 11th, 2006, 02:39 PM

That is what I always get a kick out of. :)

The nice jeans thing......the dress jeans thing.....the designer jeans thing.....the jeweled jeans thing.......the pricey jeans thing....etc etc etc What in the heck are "dress jeans"? That's a contradiction in terms IMO

Jeans are jeans are jeans are jeans. Call them anything else and they are still jeans. IMO......;)

We won't be wearing jeans on the ship. We have never brought a pair of jeans with us to a ship and don't think we're about to start now.

gizmo

May 11th, 2006, 03:40 PM

Now that the 'no jeans' language is gone

Is this REALLY the case ? The jeans clause was missing on this particular cruise, but I would like to hear what other Hal ships are doing.

LOL at the butt cleavage. It reminds me of Dan Ackroyd repairing the "old Norge" in SNL. :D

dakrewser

May 11th, 2006, 05:21 PM

Copper10-8

May 11th, 2006, 05:56 PM

I just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I mean, everyone up in arms because "Jean's in the dining room!" What I say is, as long as she follows the dress code then Jean can eat anywhere she'd like.

:rolleyes:

OK, but what if Jean is wearing jeans in the dining room? Do we call the jeans police? And what if the head of security/jeans police is a French-Canadian called Jean? Are we going to expect Jean to confront Jean for wearing jeans in the dining room?:eek:

caribbean girl

May 11th, 2006, 06:33 PM

OK, but what if Jean is wearing jeans in the dining room? Do we call the jeans police? And what if the head of security/jeans police is a French-Canadian called Jean? Are we going to expect Jean to confront Jean for wearing jeans in the dining room?:eek:

Yes...mais, certainment!! She will most certainly be escorted to the Lido, after receiving the well deserved ten lashes avec les mouilles nouilles!!!:rolleyes:

NoNoNanette

May 11th, 2006, 07:26 PM

After poor Jean is lashed and banished to the Lido, she can join me up on the TOPLESS DECK. :p

nanashirl

May 11th, 2006, 07:30 PM

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.
On formal night I agree that everyone should dress up as it is expected, but casual nights I don't know why anyone would care if someone wore jeans. At our Country Club a lot of the gentlemen wear dress jeans and a sport coat and look great. It doesn't bother me what anyone else wears.
I will dress for dinner as that is part of the fun for me, but really think a person should do what they will comfortable with.

NoNoNanette

May 11th, 2006, 07:35 PM

peaches from georgia

May 11th, 2006, 07:43 PM

At our Country Club a lot of the gentlemen wear dress jeans and a sport coat and look great.
Your Country Club is a lot difference than ours then and every CC we have ever belonged to or visited. 'CC Casual' where we are means 'no jeans' and they are strictly forbidden on the driving range, on the golf course, in the main dining room, in the bar or even in the casual dining area (where shorts are allowed). But no jeans of any kind ever. I do think it depends on where you live as to what the standards are.

sail7seas

May 11th, 2006, 07:48 PM

After poor Jean is lashed and banished to the Lido, she can join me up on the TOPLESS DECK. :p

Why would she do that? She'd have to shed her Jeans she has rallied so valiantly to get away with wearing. :D

No....guess you'll have to find someone else to go up there with you! (wherever it is this 'fictional Topless Deck' may be. ):confused: Won't be Jean without her jeans, I don't think. ;)

kryos

May 11th, 2006, 07:51 PM

Is this REALLY the case ? The jeans clause was missing on this particular cruise, but I would like to hear what other Hal ships are doing.

LOL at the butt cleavage. It reminds me of Dan Ackroyd repairing the "old Norge" in SNL. :D
I'd be willing to bet that the dress code will be determined by ship/itinerary. If this was an Alaska or a Caribbean sailing, maybe the "no jeans" clause was taken out of the "Know Before You Go" brochure that was sent to the original poster on this thread. But maybe for a European cruise, it would still be there?

Just curious ...

Blue skies ...

--rita

sail7seas

May 11th, 2006, 07:51 PM

No jeans in the dining room at any CC we have been at.

Dress Jeans.....here we go again. No such thing, IMO

That is what I always get a kick out of.

The nice jeans thing......the dress jeans thing.....the designer jeans thing.....the jeweled jeans thing.......the pricey jeans thing....etc etc etc What in the heck are "dress jeans"? That's a contradiction in terms IMO

Jeans are jeans are jeans are jeans. Call them anything else and they are still jeans. IMO......

NoNoNanette

May 11th, 2006, 07:55 PM

Why would she do that? She'd have to shed her Jeans she has rallied so valiantly to get away with wearing. :D

No....guess you'll have to find someone else to go up there with you! (wherever it is this 'fictional Topless Deck' may be. ):confused: Won't be Jean without her jeans, I don't think. ;)

Hey, give Jean an inch, and she'll take a mile! First denim, and then bare breasts! :)

dakrewser

May 11th, 2006, 09:05 PM

At our Country Club a lot of the gentlemen wear dress jeans and a sport coat and look great.

The concept of "dress jeans" is not widespread outside of the SW US. I'd certainly never come across them until we moved to Austin - and haven't seen them since we left the hill country for the Bay Area.

Surprisingly, no one has ever suggsted wearing a "Texas Tuxedo" on formal nights!:rolleyes:

nanashirl

May 11th, 2006, 09:21 PM

caribbean girl

May 11th, 2006, 09:49 PM

You were right NoNoNanette - People do get upset if you disagree.
Guess us people from the South just don't know how to act around the elite from other areas.
We were on a cruise a couple of years ago and there several men wearing dress jeans (for those of you that don't know they are cut just like slacks, only made with light weight dark denim) One sitting at our table was from NYC - guess he must have lived in the South at one time too.
It really doesn't matter as my husband doesn't wear them. I just think we should be more tolerant of others and not let what other people wear matter to us. The time you are worrying about that is taking away from your fun and the other people really don't care what we think.

No, no nanashirl!! You've got it all wrong!! Don't you see? This worrying you are referring to IS part of the fun for some people!! It contributes to a certain (false) sense of superiority.:rolleyes:

I was watching the morning news recently and there was a report about airlines losing people's luggage. Two ladies who looked to be in their 50's (an unimportant detail) got off the plane sans luggage. I believe it was returned when they got home, but they boarded a cruise ship with nothing to wear but what was contained in their carry ons. They attended a formal night on the ship and wore their Land's End nightgowns!!:D They looked adorable...one was pink the other blue!! And they were smiling and happy, just as if they were wearing the fanciest gowns!! And I bet nobody said a word or even noticed!! It made me think of all the fuss on these boards. Some people here would have banished them to the Lido or their cabins but, spunky ladies that they are, they decided to go with the flow and not sweat it!:p I'm sure they managed to thoroughly enjoy their cruise, too.

sail7seas

May 11th, 2006, 09:53 PM

tech

May 11th, 2006, 09:57 PM

1. Do not belong to a Country Club. ( Parents did when they were alive )

2. Can still afford to cruise = HAL, Celebrity and Princess

3. Have excellent quality denium skirts, slacks and jumpers.

4. Have worn denium skirt with matching jacket to casual dinner.

5. Have worn denium jumper with elegant blouse to casual dinner.

6. Have a long jeweled designer dress with jacket in denium that have worn to informal dinner.

7. Have worn denium slacks on shore tours and had people on some Islands want to buy them from me. Probably could have paid for our cruise if I had a stack of them with me.

8. Have dined on formal night in The Lido and seen all variety of informal clothes on women with more "bling " than Lloyds of London could insure !

9. Husband wears Denium Docker Shorts. So does adult son. They wear them in the daytime and switch to regular Docker slacks in the evening when casual night.

10. Graduated from Private Prep School and University.

So are we talking about jeans as in Wrangler or denium material that is considered inferior to the cheaper cotton slacks from India ?

Times do change. Fashions change. Meanings of words change.

Companies must at times change to keep customers.

Customers bring money to the bottom line.

The bottom line brings money to the stockholders.

Ergo = If you are a stockholder in a company that is not giving you a good return, you should hope that they do change.

Stockholders = Dividends + Stock Splits

Dividends = money to Cruise

"Follow the money "

Now if this thread is one that equates Denium material with lower class,
then I must indeed be "Trailer Trash " and how come I can afford to cruise?

Must be those dividends from the companies that are changing. :)

P.S. Be careful who you talk to on your next cruise, it could be me in that denium material. :D

sail7seas

May 11th, 2006, 10:04 PM

I'm interested where you are from.....

You refer to what Americans call 'denim' as denium.

Thanks if you care to share.

caribbean girl

May 11th, 2006, 10:11 PM

Speaking for myself, I would never appear in public in sleepwear.....a nightgown.

Can't speak for anyone else, of course. It would be my choice as to whether I found my garb presentable. I certainly would notice if a woman passed by me wearing a nightgown. That woman would Not be me. I would definitely not feel 'cute or adorable'. ;)

Neither would I...but I love that they had the hutzpah to go with the flow.;) Desperate times require desperate measures. The photo shown in the report displayed two happy looking women wearing pastel colored dresses flashing giant smiles. What stories to tell their grandchildren!!:D

By the way, these were not lacy nighties. They actually looked like just-below-the- knee length t-shirts. I have actually seen dresses from Talbots in the same cut and style. And much more pricey than those Land's End nightgowns probably were. :)

HALOnlyCruiser

May 11th, 2006, 10:14 PM

Jeans ARE formal in Alaska. (Off the ship). If it's REALLY formal they hose off their XTra-Tuffs!:D

caribbean girl

May 11th, 2006, 10:15 PM

By the way tech...I certainly hope I DO sit next to you on a cruise one of these days. You sound like MY kind of 'Trailer Trash'!!:p

nanashirl

May 11th, 2006, 10:18 PM

WELL SAID TECH.
TO EACH HIS OWN.
HOPE TO SEE YOU ON ONE OF MY CRUISES.
MY KIND OF CRUISER.

Copper10-8

May 11th, 2006, 11:06 PM

Sorry, we are not members of and/or don't belong to an exclussive country club and can probably count on the fingers of one hand how many times we've been in one for maybe a wedding reception, golf tournament, etc . This and other dress code threads will never die. It/they will go away for a while and then reappear under a different name and/or be dug up from the bowels of the CC ship we are all sailing on. Bottom line is: if HAL choses not to consistently enforce their "suggested" dress code, folks will wear variations of whatever they think applies to them. You can call them selfish, the "me me" generation but you're not going to be able to do a thing about it without HAL's help. I have read here that folks have seen it, but I have personally never seen anyone turned away by the dining room supervisor(s) on a HAL ship for not adhering to "the code". But then again, I'm not known to do a lot of hanging out at the DR doors and I don't believe one has a great view of what goes on at the doors from any of the end tables on each side. I can tell you that I have never had the "pleasure" to be confronted with someone wearing a tank top, wifebeater shirt, and/or butt crack display pants:eek: in the dining room on any night.

We happen to follow the dress code. At work, I wear either a uniform and/or a suit (but never a tux;) ) depending on my assignment so sure, I wouldn't mind at all enjoying my vacation by dressing in a casual way every day. However, when we get on a HAL ship, we know the "suggested" dress code and we follow it because #1 we choose to, #2 out of respect to the line's wishes and #3 out of respect to our fellow passengers. We know we're not getting on a Windstar and/or Windjammer Barefoot ship where the dress code is definitely more relaxed. We fully realize that there are folks here who choose HAL for the ambiance, who love to dress up and wish everyone else did the same 100% of the time. Unfortunately, and several folks here have said it, "the times, they are a changing" and those times of everyone dressing up to the nines are gone! I know some folks will not agree with that. To me, you can accept it or you can fight it but it's a fact and it's only going to increase with each new generation who were not brought up the way us babyboomers and the generations before us, were!

It did not, does not, and will not ruin our vacation when we see someone who is not dressed the way the line "suggests" and/or is wearing jeans in the dining room. It's just not worth it and live is just too short! Keep enjoying your vacation and be thankful you have the ability to be on a ship. We cruisers are still in the minority, and an awfull lot of folks will never be able to do it! :) Off the box!

Krazy Kruizers

May 12th, 2006, 08:50 AM

Sitting my the rail, does give us the opportunity to see who enters the dining room and we do try to notice what is going on. One of the reasons why we like a table for 2 is that we don't have to be concerned how our table mates are dressed. And that's one of the reasons why we no longer sail on NCL or Princess where the dress codes the last few years have changed quite a bit and not to our liking - JMO.

Silver Pearl

May 12th, 2006, 09:18 AM

Jeans are what I wear to wash the car. Why do we have to be so grubby on Informal nights. Jeans are informal grub wear.

Weren't the original blue jeans known as dungarees? :)

--Rich

gizmo

May 12th, 2006, 09:36 AM

Yes, they were called dungarees when I was a kid. I think it was in the late 60's that the term jeans started to be used. Jeans became popular with the hippie generation. I remember soaking them in bleach to soften them up. ;)

Silver Pearl

May 12th, 2006, 09:43 AM

. . . It did not, does not, and will not ruin our vacation when we see someone who is not dressed the way the line "suggests" and/or is wearing jeans in the dining room. It's just not worth it and live is just too short! Keep enjoying your vacation and be thankful you have the ability to be on a ship. We cruisers are still in the minority, and an awfull lot of folks will never be able to do it! :) Off the box!

I agree entirely. While I do dress "to code" while aboard, it doesn't bother me if others don't.

That said, I really enjoyed our cruise on the Silver Whisper last Fall. Silversea is a very "dressy" line, and most everyone complied with code, even though this was a Caribbean cruise. The resulting effect was that dinners were elegant affairs. I found myself enjoying "playing dress up," though at home I really like loafin' in my jeans.

The big argument on Silversea was whether informal in the Caribbean required a tie with one's coat, or not.

So, I do see the benefit of the majority following a code. But I also have a bit of a rebellious streak. I think I'd like to have a nicely-tailored light weight denim Tux.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping to enjoy our Westerdam cruise in June. The occasional "reverse cleavage" won't bother me, and may even prove entertaining.

--Rich

Copper10-8

May 12th, 2006, 09:54 AM

I agree entirely. While I do dress "to code" while aboard, it doesn't bother me if others don't.

That said, I really enjoyed our cruise on the Silver Whisper last Fall. Silversea is a very "dressy" line, and most everyone complied with code, even though this was a Caribbean cruise. The resulting effect was that dinners were elegant affairs. I found myself enjoying "playing dress up," though at home I really like loafin' in my jeans.

The big argument on Silversea was whether informal in the Caribbean required a tie with one's coat, or not.

So, I do see the benefit of the majority following a code. But I also have a bit of a rebellious streak. I think I'd like to have a nicely-tailored light weight denim Tux.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping to enjoy our Westerdam cruise in June. The occasional "reverse cleavage" won't bother me, and may even prove entertaining.

--Rich

Rich, heard a lot about the Italian "silver ships" Cloud, Wind, Shadow and Whisper. Good to hear you liked them!

Please let me know if you are able to find a denim tux! I'll stick to my ongoing study of the more tradidional cleavage. ;)

LHC

May 12th, 2006, 10:34 AM

There was a couple, not at our table but close by that came from the state of Rev. Neal and our President, who wore jeans most nights to dinner. Not on formal night but all the others.
It was obvious that he and his wife were quite well off and these jeans were not like my Lee's or Levi's but of nice quality.
Still they were Jeans. He was accepted each night at a large dinner table and the table seemed to be having a great time.
It did not bother our dinner table. Actually we enjoyed hearing them laugh so much, the only distraction was the ring on DW's Texan hand that would hit the light and blind our entire table of 7. It was a whopper.
Linda

middle-aged mom

May 12th, 2006, 11:48 AM

Weren't the original blue jeans known as dungarees? :)

--Rich

Rich (and others who may be interested):

Here is the history and origin of "denim" and "jeans" straight from the Levi Strauss Company. (http://www.levistrauss.com/about/history/denim.htm)

gizmo

May 12th, 2006, 11:49 AM

Please let me know if you are able to find a denim tux!

The Canadian Tuxedo
The Canadian Tuxedo is the favoured outfit for young men and women on important occasions. Nothing says "I'm looking my best for you" like The Canadian Tuxedo. Wear it to your prom, for an important job interview, or at a relative's funeral. The Canadian Tuxedo is traditionally comprised of a pair of blue jeans, a blue jean shirt, and a blue jean jacket.

Canadian Tuxedo
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A Canadian Tuxedo is an American English term for an outfit consisting of a denim jacket and denim jeans. This outfit can be accentuated with the addition of a button-down denim shirt. The phrase was first used and popularized in the film Super Troopers by the character Rodney Farva referring to the character John O'Hagan.

:eek:

sail7seas

May 12th, 2006, 12:01 PM

Sounds simply stunning, dahhhhling!!! ;)

Copper10-8

May 12th, 2006, 12:01 PM

The Canadian Tuxedo
The Canadian Tuxedo is the favoured outfit for young men and women on important occasions. Nothing says "I'm looking my best for you" like The Canadian Tuxedo. Wear it to your prom, for an important job interview, or at a relative's funeral. The Canadian Tuxedo is traditionally comprised of a pair of blue jeans, a blue jean shirt, and a blue jean jacket.

Canadian Tuxedo
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A Canadian Tuxedo is an American English term for an outfit consisting of a denim jacket and denim jeans. This outfit can be accentuated with the addition of a button-down denim shirt. The phrase was first used and popularized in the film Super Troopers by the character Rodney Farva referring to the character John O'Hagan.

:eek:

Thanks; found a pic!

Silver Pearl

May 12th, 2006, 12:42 PM

Rich (and others who may be interested):

Here is the history and origin of "denim" and "jeans" straight from the Levi Strauss Company. (http://www.levistrauss.com/about/history/denim.htm)

Thanks, M-am!

--Rich

Silver Pearl

May 12th, 2006, 12:45 PM

The Canadian Tuxedo
The Canadian Tuxedo is the favoured outfit for young men and women on important occasions. . . . The Canadian Tuxedo is traditionally comprised of a pair of blue jeans, a blue jean shirt, and a blue jean jacket.:eek:

Okay, then. But, what I'm looking for would be a really classy tux--traditional cut--all tailored from good, light-weight denim. The pants, jacket and cumberbund would all be denim, as would the bow-tie. However, I think I'd wear a standard, white pleated tux shirt, perhaps with denim-wrapped studs.

--Rich

tech

May 12th, 2006, 01:30 PM

Try Louis Vuitton or any other international known designer.

The Haute Couture will use many materials and unusual combinations to design very lovely and expensive items of apparel.

I have no doubt that one of the designers would enjoy and create a very elegant denium tuxedo. It probably has been done already.

It does seem to be a bit provincial to be so concerned about the dress of everyone around you on a cruise.

One would think you would be enjoying your own cruise being confident that you are dressed to code. :)

ryansmemom

May 12th, 2006, 03:14 PM

Hi everyone,

I am a traditionalist on these boards. However, I do believe that denim is here to stay. I have worn denim since I was a teenager in the mid 60's. I do not think it is a formal fabric. I think it is a casual fabric. I enjoy wearing it. Before my accident one of my favorite outfits was dark wash jeans, a black turtle neck sweater, my red fox jacket and stiletto heels. I can't wear the heels any more and the jacket has been replaced with another more animal friendly one.

I were jeans all the time. I have never worn jeans on a cruise, but I won't say I never will. I can't see myself wearing them on a formal or even informal night. However, I cannot for the life of me see the problem with wearing a nice pair of jeans with the right top, jacket and accessories and shoes on a cruise.

They are part of the culture and have been for over 40 years. I'm not talking about everyday work clothes worn for gardening or outdoor work. I mean well tailored jean trousers.

I really don't understand why denim is such a big deal. I really enjoy formal nights, dressing to the nines, the whole sheebang. Nice denim is really nice. I wear my jeans with beaded tops to go out to a casual restaurant or a party. I love the casual elegant statement an outfit like that makes.

Louis Vuitton also has handbags made of denim. This one sells for over $1400.00.

Linda

sail7seas

May 12th, 2006, 03:23 PM

I guess the part that I continue to disagree about is the relevance (or lack) of the price.

Whether the denim jeans cost $1,000 or $30....they still are denim jeans, aren't they? My participation in this conversation has nothing to do with cost. It has to do with what the garment is. Jeans of any price are still jeans.

As always....JMHO

ryansmemom

May 12th, 2006, 03:37 PM

And I agree with you Judy,

It is certainly not about price. It is, in my opinion, about cut, fit, style and fabric. And all jeans are not alike in those paramaters. I am talking about "jean trousers" which are very different from "blue jeans" that we see every day on people shulubbing around the mall.

These are made of a more lightweight fabric. They are sewn and tailored to fit.

We have to compromise somewhere. We are all living in the same world. There is no right and wrong. Change is inevitable. Life is change. Only the dead do not change.

Linda

sail7seas

May 12th, 2006, 03:54 PM

Can each of us choose the 'where' we wish to compromise?

ryansmemom

May 12th, 2006, 04:01 PM

Can each of us choose the 'where' we wish to compromise?

Of course! That is what freedom means! And thank God we still have some of that!

Linda

sail7seas

May 12th, 2006, 04:12 PM

:) Here's to Freedom!!! :)

RevNeal

May 12th, 2006, 04:55 PM

I own two pair of jeans. I wear them when I'm out working in the yard, or painting, or doing other physical labor that could result in slacks being harmed. Otherwise, I don't wear them. I find them confining and uncomfortable.

Nevertheless, there are different kinds of jeans, and there are different ways to wear them. I've seen guys dressed in VERY nice, light weight "dress jeans." They are cut like slacks but they're made out of denim. I wouldn't wear them, but I've seen them. I've seen them in the dining room on casual and informal nights, even. While not my preference, since they became invisible when the person sits down, I can block it out of my mind if it bothers me (which is doesn't). That was sort of what happened when Brian came to dinner on the last night aboard the Noordam in jeans and snazzy jacket:

http://homepage.mac.com/revneal/.Pictures/noordaminaugral/ccergroup/group4.jpg

His wearing Jeans didn't ruin dinner. Indeed, I hardly noticed he was wearing jeans until it was pointed out to me (by Brian himself). I would rather not see the dress code "relaxed" on this subject, but since it won't change what I wear, and since I'm not offended by jeans that don't have holes, or aren't filthy, and are worn up around the waist, I suppose it doesn't bother me enough to matter.

What I think most people dread is the day when we start seeing people coming into the dining room with their jeans hiked down to about half-way to their knees, with most of their underwear showing, ball-caps turned side-ways, tattoos showing from their sleeveless shirts, and 2-dozen body piercings displayed for all to see. It's THAT which worries some people. Others, however, I suspect are awaiting the day with eager anticipation ... preparing to "bear it all" for us to see the nails driven through private parts and the chains hanging between those parts. :eek:

ryansmemom

May 12th, 2006, 05:33 PM

And if I may stick my neck out a bit, I think people are concerned that there are people who cannot differentiate between well tailored, well fitting jean trousers and the jeans one would wear to shlepp around the mall or supermarket. Or the difference in the accessories that would accompany those two disparite forms of dress.

I think that people are concerned that if you give people an inch, some will take a mile. And, I can understand that concern. Honestly, I do not have a solution to that problem.

Linda

1cruiselvr

May 12th, 2006, 05:45 PM

My opposition is not to jeans specifically but to the downward slope of the cruiseline dress code (IMHO). Jeans were not allowed at one time and pax were turned away from the DR if they arrived in them. From there we went to not turning away those that came in jeans. Now we seem to be heading towards jeans okay. My fear is that the next step will be not to challenge those that come to the DR in shorts, tanks and flipflops. Where will we go from there - bathing suits ok? I'd rather the cruiseline support a dress code and let those that want to wear whatever they want eat in the Lido. On another cruiseline we once had to share our dinner with a couple that arrived in their bathing suits w/coverups. Nothing was said to them. It could be the wave of the future.... Happy Sailing!

caribbean girl

May 12th, 2006, 06:08 PM

ryansmemom

May 12th, 2006, 07:57 PM

I seem to recall other dress code threads where ALL jeans were balked at...including the high end, tailored type. I daresay...it seems things are taking a turn for a more tolerant approach. Very interesting indeed...

How about the new trend for women which features tops which used to only be seen in the bedroom?...you know, the lacy, satin type. You see them everywhere...from business settings (under a suit) to parties. And on all types of people...from wealthy to working class, to stick thin to heavy set. Imagine that...jeans AND lingerie...together!! What a concept!!

I am a huge fan of "What Not To Wear" on TLC. Stacy and Clinton may come across a bit on the abrasive side, but they do give excellent fashion advice. They have helped me update my wardrobe and build a good basic one that avoids passing trends.

They were advocates of doing away with the old" No white after Labor Day or before Easter" rule or your shoes and handbag must match. They advocate well tailored, dark even washed jean trousers for casual wear.

They also talk about camisoles; silk, satin, embellished or plain. They say these are fine and they are tasteful as long as they are worn as layering pieces. Regardless of the size or age of the woman, they are not made to be worn alone. So, they are just that, layering pieces. They really advocate a well put together, well groomed flattering look for women and men of all sizes, shapes and ages.

I really like the look of layered tops and jackets. Those camis are great under a jacket or a tee shirt, especially the ones with some bling.

Linda

RevNeal

May 12th, 2006, 09:24 PM

caribbean girl,

:)
Don't misunderstand me. I don't like jeans. I don't like them for me, and I personally do not believe that they are ever appropriate for informal or formal night in ANY style. If HAL were to enforce the formal night code more strictly, I would be less prone to be worried about the "slippery slope" of allowing jeans on casual nights. Jean trousers on casual night are ok, I suppose ... though not for me. I will not wear them because I'm not comfortable in them. However, if a fashion maven like Brian feels comfortable on casual night in fashion jeans with a dress shirt and a velour jacket, I don't mind that either. At least his jacket counter-balances his wearing of jeans ... he's better dressed in the above photo (taken on a casual night) than some guys on informal night! :) Jean trousers not withstanding.

Oh, and Linda ... I enjoy "What Not To Wear" too. I'm watching it as a post this. I've learned a lot about shopping and clothing in general from watch Stacy and Clinton, though I wish they would do a few more guys.

tech

May 12th, 2006, 10:22 PM

ryansmemom

May 12th, 2006, 11:14 PM

Oh, and Linda ... I enjoy "What Not To Wear" too. I'm watching it as a post this. I've learned a lot about shopping and clothing in general from watch Stacy and Clinton, though I wish they would do a few more guys.

Greg,

I agree with you about Stacy and Clinton as far as doing more shows about men's fashion. I enjoy the shows they do about the guys. One thing I learned was to buy trousers with flat fronts, no pleats. I just wish they were easier to find. Lou buys most of his wardrobe at Men's Warehouse and they have a ton of clothes. However it is difficult to find those trousers without pleats. The same is true in the department stores, even the high end stores.

Linda:)

RevNeal

May 12th, 2006, 11:15 PM

It seems to me that underneath all the talk of proper clothes is really something that is not being said.

It is being alluded to and skirted around and it is the subject of "class ".

It would seem that some are concerned that the "class " of people cruising is changing.

Instead of saying 'We are appalled that these people are now cruising on our higher end cruiseline", the issue is hidden behind the clothes being worn.

A cruiseline is not a "gated community ". You buy your ticket and you sail. You do not have to belong to a Country Club or belong to the local "Hunt Club ".

There is no litmus test to determine if you are qualified socially to cruise on this ship.

I understand what you're trying to say. I disagree with you, but I understand where your observation is coming from. And, I'm certain, some people probably do fit this caricature which you've painted. I have been the target of some who have said that, since I'm a "Johnny-come-lately" (I began cruising with HAL in 1994), I'm part of the "problem" ... despite the fact that I dress according to code and behave myself when aboard ship. However, this attitude is NOT what is fueling most of what we see here. Most of us who post here who wish that HAL would enforce its dress code are not wishing to maintain a certain social class among our fellow passengers but, rather, a certain kind of behavior. As you have framed the issue, you would appear to intimate that only those of a specific social class are interested in "dressing up" or abiding by the published dress code. I strenuously object to this assertion.

Not everyone that is not conforming to the dress code is doing it to irritate other passengers. They are wearing the clothes that they understand to be correct.

Why can't they read the "Know Before You Go" booklet, or the website, and understand what IS correct ... i.e., what is according to the code? I was able to do this in 1994. Other people can do this, without any trouble. Why is it that some people demand that the line change, rather than abiding by the dress code as it is published? I'm sorry ... they can read, and they fully understand what the line's dress code states, they just don't want to abide by it. It's this kind of disrespectful behavior that we would like to see changed. It has nothing to do with social CLASS ... it has to do with simple respect. People of ALL social classes can understand and exercise respect for the Line, respect for their fellow passengers, and respect for themselves.

The only solution for some is to investigate which cruiseline is enforcing the type of dress you prefer. Then you book this cruiseline.

Why must we leave? Many of us researched and found HAL and have cruised on HAL for a decade (or more) because HAL provided a certain kind of cruise experience ... an experience which includes a dress code. We shouldn't have to flee because those who have read, and know, the code refuse to abide by it.

Himself

May 12th, 2006, 11:20 PM

RevNeal

May 12th, 2006, 11:21 PM

One thing I learned was to buy trousers with flat fronts, no pleats. I just wish they were easier to find. Lou buys most of his wardrobe at Men's Warehouse and they have a ton of clothes. However it is difficult to find those trousers without pleats. The same is true in the department stores, even the high end stores.

Oh, I disagree. I know I'm out of step with what's supposed to be the case, but on ME slacks with flat fronts -- without pleats -- look BAAAAAAAD. My stomach shoes much more of a bulge in such pants. Perhaps, come the next several months and I keep loosing weight, I'll look good in such pants. But, in truth, they look just awful on me.

I also buy my suits and slacks at Mens Warehouse. They have an excellent supply of clothing that looks great on me. I buy my suits from them almost without fail. But, for guys my size they don't have much without pleats. And for good reason. :)

RevNeal

May 12th, 2006, 11:26 PM

Hey, Rev. Greg Neal:

You own one more pair than I do. I have one pair of shorts that are jeans.
I am not big on them although I wore them when I was a child. However, since I have become an adult, I do not wear them.

Hey yourself, Father Himself. :)
Well ... one pair of jeans is probably now too big for me. When I began losing weight in March I was wearing 52s. Today I'm wearing 48s. So, the 52 jeans I have will no longer fit me (or, rather, they'll fit me like a bag). I have a pair of 46 jeans that I'll probably be able to wear within the next few weeks, as I continue to lose weight. :)

I just wish it was as easy, and as fun, to lose weight as it is to gain it. :)

ryansmemom

May 12th, 2006, 11:38 PM

It seems to me that underneath all the talk of proper clothes is really something that is not being said.

It is being alluded to and skirted around and it is the subject of "class ".

It would seem that some are concerned that the "class " of people cruising is changing.

Instead of saying 'We are appalled that these people are now cruising on our higher end cruiseline", the issue is hidden behind the clothes being worn.

A cruiseline is not a "gated community ". You buy your ticket and you sail. You do not have to belong to a Country Club or belong to the local "Hunt Club ".

There is no litmus test to determine if you are qualified socially to cruise on this ship.

Not everyone that is not conforming to the dress code is doing it to irritate other passengers. They are wearing the clothes that they understand to be correct.

The only solution for some is to investigate which cruiseline is enforcing the type of dress you prefer. Then you book this cruiseline.

It may mean leaving a much loved line behind and also paying a great deal more for the cruise.

The payoff will be that you will never be irritated or insulted by anyones manner of dressing.

The large mainstream cruiselines will not go back to the cruising dress codes of the 1950's for the customer base has changed. The whole world has changed. In the business world you change or you die.

It can be the same for people, change can be good, it does not have to be intimidating.

You could also continue to cruise on your favorite line and take tranquillizers.:)

You are only going to raise your blood pressure and ruin your cruise if you obsess over the dress of others.

Tech,

I can't really say I agree with you.

If you check back a few posts I actually said that change was necessary, not for business but for life. Living things change. The only things that do not change are dead things. To fight change is to set yourself on the road to death.

As far as class goes, back in the fifties, you really could not tell the difference between people's class by the way they dressed, unless you looked at the labels. Men and boys wore suits and ties to work or school or church or on vacation and women and girls wore dresses or skirts and blouses. Everyone was well behaved and well mannered and polite at least in public. Society was far less classless than it seems today.

To me it seems that the only people who are concerned about class are those who want to be seen as an underclass. They use it as an excuse to complain about what they are not getting or what they feel is too cumbersome for the lifestye they want to enjoy. For example, People who have good language skills and know how to spell and use grammar are seen elitist. Education is not respected in our country, we value movie stars and athletes to teachers and college professors. People who value dressing well, respecting and honoring the rules set by the host and value other sociatial standards are suspected closet class elitists.

What is so wrong about wanting to take the high road in life? I thought this country was all about bettering yourself. Striving for higher standards? Doing better than your parents. That is the beauty of America. You are not stuck in the niche you were born into. That is what "class" meant. It is where you were born and where you died. Although I must confess, I never knew of anyone who strived to move down in the class structure.

These are just musings. Please don't turn them into flames or furies. Let's keep it civil. I am not attacking anyone. Just having a discussion.

Linda

RevNeal

May 12th, 2006, 11:48 PM

To me it seems that the only people who are concerned about class are those who want to be seen as an underclass. They use it as an excuse to complain about what they are not getting or what they feel is too cumbersome for the lifestye they want to enjoy. For example, People who have good language skills and know how to spell and use grammar are seen elitist. Education is not respected in our country, we value movie stars and athletes to teachers and college professors. People who value dressing well, respecting and honoring the rules set by the host and value other sociatial standards are suspected closet class elitists.

Thanks Linda ... very well stated. From time to time I'm castigated for daring to write out my words and sentences rather than using the far-too-common shorthand of "u" for "you," "r" for "are," "c" for "see," "luv" for "love," etc. Oh, I've given in to using LOL and such, but that's an acronym, not a shortening of a real word.

bepsf

May 13th, 2006, 01:02 AM

RevNeal

May 13th, 2006, 01:33 AM

Gee, Brian ... I guess that goes to show how little attention I paid to what you were wearing. :) You were such a snazzy dresser so I didn't notice the details. :D For example ... I have no idea what you had on your feet. It was the last evening of the cruise, so you tell us.

By the way ... that's not a bad picture of you. And ... you know my price for the photo. ;)

tech

May 13th, 2006, 02:19 AM

No offense taken in not agreeing with me. I am just posting to give a different interpretation since truly this is not something that gets me upset.

However, the fifties really were not the Beaver Cleaver days of the television. You really could tell the income class or monetary status of people then just as you can tell today. I was there in the 1940's and the 1950's.

It was not all sunshine and roses, people were people just like today. Some were able to dress well and some could barely find the money for the basics. In many ways it was a very repressed time socially.

I have been in port on a Holland ship and heard discussions concerning the dress and type of passenger on the adjoining NCL ship. People do make judgements about a persons character and indirectly their class by their manner of dress. The terms slob and tacky came into the conversation.

It is unfortunate but it does happen. We have all probably used or thought it at one time.

Nothing wrong in wanting to better oneself in the way of education, etc. This an a natural thing to do.

It only becomes a problem when in turn you do not remember your roots and elevate yourself above those less fortunate or not as educated.

The term Closet Class Elitists is a new one for me. :)

Most people I met that considered themselves of the elite were anything but in the closet. They let you know from "Hello".

As to one social class wanting to dress up more.
If that were my true feelings, then the family I grew up in would have worn evening gowns for dinner. We didn't, Mother had to force Dad into his Tux for parties.

No, but education and higher income does allow you to go places and see how people dress in different social situations. It enlarges your knowledge of correct dress and manners for all
types of social events.

My point is that people of very average means can cruise when a price is right. Yes, they can read ( but some not as well as you may think ) the rules of dress but may from their own living experience interpret them differently.

The difference in the interpretation of dress varies all over the country. It does vary with your income / education class .

America would like to say we are a classless society but an economist will argue that point.
That is why we have the terms middle class, upper middle class, etc.

On our last Princess Cruise we met an older couple from England. The poor lady was almost in tears on formal night. They were from a smaller village and had not traveled very much.

Their son and daughter in law gave them the cruise for their anniversary.

The lady had on a nice short dress suitable for church but not like the long or short cocktail formals that she saw.

She did not know that she needed that type of dress and probably could not have afforded one.
In her mind she had on her "Sunday Best ", but it was not denium.:)

It was sad to see her so unhappy about it and I talked to her for a long time ..tried to help her feel better.

I could have chosen to ignore her and
written her off as one of the people ignoring the
expected behavior.

I guess my church upbringing came to her rescue. My mother would be pleased that scrubbing and dressing me up for church on Sundays had some lasting impact.:D

We must have been lucky for in all our cruises over the last twelve years, we have not seen the dress situations in such numbers being described.

There is also another description of "class ", perhaps the hardest one to practice.

It is to try and understand the people that are not conforming. Certainly, some are flaunting the rules, but maybe there are many more that just do not understand. Yes, they can read but how they interpret what they read is a different matter.

We should not always assume the worst motivation on their part.

As to leaving one line for another. No one has to do that but some of the posts seem to indicate that this dress code not being enforced is really making them very unhappy.

One can wish that the dress code was being enforced but the truth is in many cases it must not be happening.

I doubt that any of you can change that but you can change how you react to the situation.
What we cannot change, we change the way we react.

Ignore it or find a line that comes closer to one that has the dress code you did enjoy in the past.

That is not being forced to flee.

Have you not stopped going to a hotel or restaurant because in your mind the standards have slipped ?

You have complete control of what cruiseline you choose.

What I would not do is spend too much time beating your head against the wall.

I also would not get too upset with any other viewpoint for you do not have to agree or disagree.:)

Peace

Wilcoam

May 13th, 2006, 04:40 AM

Some sarcastic thoughts...

50% of cruisers like formal nights and traditional seating. 50% prefer freestyle and casual dress.

50% of the 50% whom prefer the freestyle and casual dress, still prefer HAL and X over NCL and Carnival

50% of us still can't figure out the difference between informal and formal.

The 50% who prefer traditional era crusing rules are united. The 50% whom oppose are splintered into many opinions and factions.

50% of us don't want to dress either formal or informal at dinner or evening because they're on vacation.

50% of us like the idea of recreating graduation night while on vacation. This time 50% of us 'get laid'! (and photographed)

It's when one takes their 50% and claims that's it's a mandate is when all the trouble starts.

'Nobody wins unless everyone wins'
Bruce Springsteen

jc
toronto
HAL ZUIDERDAM Jan 27-07
Where I'll both be wearing clean jeans and dressing up (at dinner) depending upon my mood on any given evening and what my wife says I should wear (lol)

PrincessYoga

May 13th, 2006, 08:39 AM

I'd be willing to bet that the dress code will be determined by ship/itinerary. If this was an Alaska or a Caribbean sailing, maybe the "no jeans" clause was taken out of the "Know Before You Go" brochure that was sent to the original poster on this thread. But maybe for a European cruise, it would still be there?

Just curious ...

Blue skies ...

--rita

The jeans bit is not in the Know before you Cruise book I got yesterday. i am on a European cruise.

caribbean girl

May 13th, 2006, 09:37 AM

tech...you make SO many valid points...too many to address individually.

Suffice it to say we are on the same page. Sometimes it's hard to take a look at oneself realistically and come to terms with the REAL reasons why one feels the way one does. I DO think that the whole dress thing smacks of class issues but, since we like to think of ourselves as accepting, tolerant, charitable, or what have you, it's hard to admit that this is in fact exactly what we are talking about. My personal experience (and I will leave it at that so as not to get too 'personal':) ) is that people who have grown up in affluence are much more laissez faire about these things. It's mostly those of us who fancy ourselves of a certain newly acquired pedigree who moan and grown about 'those other people'. It happens in all kinds of circles, from neighborhood situations to (sadly) church settings. By the way, on the topic of country clubs which were mentioned before, there are all sorts of country clubs...from the traditional to otherwise. We have them where we currrently live. It is not always necessary to be in a certain income bracket to afford one.

In the end it boils down to the fact that, as you said, one cannot effect the actions of others, only one's own. If it works for you to sit at a table by yourself so you can monitor who's wearing what and thus miss out on meeting a host of other diverse yet perhaps interesting folks, than so be it. And if you decide to relax and enjoy a glass of wine with a group which may not be custom made to your specifications but with whom you can spend a few hours, then go for it. If one does not like what one sees in a certain product (and cruising is a commodity/product) then go somewhere else. The cruise lines are ultimately after $$ and, like it or not, they're going to be responding to public demand.

babyher

May 13th, 2006, 09:44 AM

Tech,

thank you so much for such a thoughful and well written post. I wholeheartedly agree.

You are right....your Mom would be very proud of you :)

Enjoy:)

herb

May 13th, 2006, 11:00 AM

I DO think that the whole dress thing smacks of class issues but, since we like to think of ourselves as accepting, tolerant, charitable, or what have you, it's hard to admit that this is in fact exactly what we are talking about. My personal experience (and I will leave it at that so as not to get too 'personal':) ) is that people who have grown up in affluence are much more laissez faire about these things. It's mostly those of us who fancy ourselves of a certain newly acquired pedigree who moan and grown about 'those other people'. It happens in all kinds of circles, from neighborhood situations to (sadly) church settings. By the way, on the topic of country clubs which were mentioned before, there are all sorts of country clubs...from the traditional to otherwise. We have them where we currrently live. It is not always necessary to be in a certain income bracket to afford one.

You're right. "Old money" doesn't need to make a statement. Only the nouveau riche do, and they do it in a BIG WAY!!!

NoNoNanette

May 13th, 2006, 11:12 AM

Copper10-8

May 13th, 2006, 11:37 AM

I think that Brian looks handsome! :)

HOWEVER, I find the other two men with their chest hair showing extremely distasteful and vulgar.

If you're going to show chest hair at dinner, you might as well wear a tank-top and show your underarms! :rolleyes:

Hey, watch it or you're going overboard! Some of us have no choice in the matter! What do you want us to do, wear a burka at dinner? :rolleyes:

NoNoNanette

May 13th, 2006, 11:42 AM

Hey, watch it or you're going overboard! Some of us have no choice in the matter! What do you want us to do, wear a burka at dinner? :rolleyes:

*LOL*

Not at all, kiddo... My Dominic has a LOVELY hairy chest. :) I like chest hair on a man.... but not in the dining room.

To me, that's far worse than Brian's blue jeans. ;)

NoNoNanette

May 13th, 2006, 11:44 AM

BTW: If I went overboard, Rev and his "cousin" would have another excuse to "toast" me. :D

bepsf

May 13th, 2006, 12:15 PM

"Waiter! Waiter!"

"Yes, Ma'am?"

"Waiter, someone's chest-hair is in my Soup!"

"Shhh, Not so loud Ma'am. Everyone else will want one too!"
:D

caribbean girl

May 13th, 2006, 12:41 PM

Oh...okay...so you're Brian aka bepsf!!:) I do like that blue velvet on you...very fashion forward. And paring it with jeans displays a whimsical yet savy sense of style. I just want to see your choice of shoes...Cole Haan driving mocs, perhaps? The suspense is torture...

By the way, I don't recall who brought it up but I believe Trini and Suzanne frown (sorry:o ) on pants with darts in the front. They say they tend to accentuate that not-so- flattering-slightly-bulging tummy area...:rolleyes: They recommend flat front pants...

Copper10-8

May 13th, 2006, 12:47 PM

Oh...okay...so you're Brian aka bepsf!!:) I do like that blue velvet on you...very fashion forward. And paring it with jeans displays a whimsical yet savy sense of style. I just want to see your choice of shoes...Cole Haan driving mocs, perhaps? The suspense is torture...

By the way, I don't recall who brought it up but I believe Trini and Suzanne frown (sorry:o ) on pants with darts in the front. They say they tend to accentuate those not-so- flattering-slightly-bulging tummy areas...:rolleyes: They recommend flat front pants...

Wow, a whole new fashion aficionado!:eek: Do you have any hot tips regarding the prudent display of chest hair at the dinner table?;)

babyher

May 13th, 2006, 01:08 PM

Brian I think you look fine.

Yes they look like jeans , not "jean trousers", but they are neat and clean and you are wearing a dress shirt and a very nice jacket with it. (The footwear is still a mystery *LOL*)

I think it looks great :)

babyher

May 13th, 2006, 01:14 PM

Pretty soon there is going to be a red carpet in front of all the dining rooms and before you can enter , you are going to have to tell Joan and Melissa Rivers "who" you are wearing *LOL*

And if you aren't up to code , your punishment will be ...............being assigned to the same table as Joan and Melissa Rivers :) :) :)

RevNeal

May 13th, 2006, 02:40 PM

BTW: If I went overboard, Rev and his "cousin" would have another excuse to "toast" me. :D

Nanette,

Again, I am very sorry that I offered such a toast, and I am doubly sorry that I shared it on this board. Clearly, offering repeated apologies is insufficient with you. Clearly, you wish to jab and dig with crass remarks and thinly veiled innuendo for every pound of flesh you can extract. Well, have at it, sister, I've got plenty. Just continue bashing me all you like ... what it paints about you is speaking volumes.

However, it was I who offered the toast, not Christopher. He wasn't even aboard for that cruise, doesn't even come to this board, and has no idea of who you are, so I would thank you to leave him out of it.

RevNeal

May 13th, 2006, 02:41 PM

"Waiter! Waiter!"

"Yes, Ma'am?"

"Waiter, someone's chest-hair is in my Soup!"

"Shhh, Not so loud Ma'am. Everyone else will want one too!"
:D

Never fear ... I have plenty to go around. :D ;) :eek:

RevNeal

May 13th, 2006, 02:45 PM

By the way, I don't recall who brought it up but I believe Trini and Suzanne frown (sorry:o ) on pants with darts in the front. They say they tend to accentuate that not-so- flattering-slightly-bulging tummy area...:rolleyes: They recommend flat front pants...

On men's pants it's tucks, or pleats, not darts. Men's pants have darts on the BACK, but never in the front. Darts in the front are found on women's pants.

And, in my case, the pleats serve to camouflage the bulging tummy area. :D So, our British "What Not To Wear" friends are right for some, but not all, circumstances. :D

Opinions

May 13th, 2006, 02:46 PM

As far as class goes, back in the fifties, you really could not tell the difference between people's class by the way they dressed, unless you looked at the labels. Men and boys wore suits and ties to work or school or church or on vacation and women and girls wore dresses or skirts and blouses.
Linda

You obviously lived in a different world than I did...Back in the fifties I worked in a factory...We did not wear suits and ties to work!

bepsf

May 13th, 2006, 02:57 PM

You obviously lived in a different world than I did...Back in the fifties I worked in a factory...We did not wear suits and ties to work!

I understand that in much of Northern Europe and Japan in the 50's and 60's, it was quite common for men to wear a suit & tie to the factory and change into coveralls for their work on the factory floor, then dress again in their suit to return home.

bepsf

May 13th, 2006, 03:03 PM

CG -

Yes, 'tis I
***blushes***

...and No - I was wearing black italian slides :o (no more room in the lugggage for another pair of shoes! I had to Fed-Ex clothing out and home for part of my trip!) :eek:

BabyH--

I have the feeling that I'd LIKE to sit at Joan & Melissa's table (just for one night...)
...as long as she didn't complain about the staff being lazy because they couldnt tell her if we would be moored at Pier 88 or Pier 90!
:cool:

babyher

May 13th, 2006, 03:08 PM

ryansmemom

May 13th, 2006, 05:05 PM

You obviously lived in a different world than I did...Back in the fifties I worked in a factory...We did not wear suits and ties to work!

Actually, I was remembering the world of a very young child who wore dresses to elementary school in the late 50's even though it was freezing out with ice, wind and snow. I was not permitted to wear pants to school and I walked. One day my mother got the idea that I could wear my pants to and from school under my dress if I removed them when I got to school and stored them in my cubby. That helped. She did worry about me walking the streets wearing pants, though. So I was only allowed to do this if it was bitterly cold. She knew I risked being ridiculed when I did this.

Linda

RevNeal

May 13th, 2006, 05:32 PM

You obviously lived in a different world than I did...Back in the fifties I worked in a factory...We did not wear suits and ties to work!

But I bet you wore at least jackets and tie to church. :)
On Sunday I can almost guarantee you that, out of 75 men, only 3 will be wearing a coat and tie.

patwell

May 13th, 2006, 07:27 PM

Linda....how you made me laugh! I too remember those freezing winter days going to school in a dress or skirt. Only we wore our snowpants under the dresses and before the morning bell rang there'd be all these girls in the "cloakroom" pulling off their snowpants! Yes siree...the times they have changed! And I for one am glad I grew up when I did when life wasn't all about "me-me-me". Boy, we did look silly tho didn't we!!! Cheers, Penny

tech

May 13th, 2006, 09:25 PM

My husband remembers distinctly being told in the 1940's and 1950's by the parish priest :

"Come to church neat and clean. God does not care that your clothes are not new or expensive."

Many of the people in his parish did not have much money ( our version of Little Italy ) and as such they did not have a suit but wore "neat and clean". Many were proud immigrants that worked hard with their hands every day. Women could cover their head with a simple scarf or hat.

The important lesson being taught was to be in church each Sunday, not in a fashion show.

If not for the understanding of this type of parish priest, many would have been ashamed to go to church. This was not the intent of the Church nor of God.

By the late 1950's I was at University, we did wear slacks and jeans to class. We also wore bermuda shorts with knee socks.

It may just be more obvious today but each generation have had their share of me-me-me.

No one time in history has been devoid of that type of personality.

Times are different today but not necessarily worse. We tend to remember the past more fondly than the present.

As far as gentleman in a burka, that is an interesting idea. At least they could not wear a baseball hat at the same time ? :D

My husband always wears a undershirt under his shirts. Then keeps the top button on his shirt buttoned. Problem solved for him. Not much to ask of the gentlemen, compared to the layers of clothes women have to be prepared to wear. :)

On one other subject. When one is personally and publicly insulted, it can take a long time to get over the situation.

The internet now calls this flaming and there is way too much of it going on.

It can produce the same long term feelings that children have when they are bullied on the playground. Those feelings can last a lifetime for some people.

Most people who find themselves in such a situation will want to speak up. Defend themselves. The time to heal varies from person to person.

Understanding and non-escalation may be the kindest way to respond.

caribbean girl

May 13th, 2006, 09:39 PM

tech...I like you more and more!:)

Boatdrill

May 13th, 2006, 09:47 PM

As passengers, if you prefer that jeans NOT be allowed in the dining room, tell the maitre d' and Hotel Director, in person. Word WILL get back to HAL in Seattle.

bepsf

May 13th, 2006, 09:56 PM

tech...I like you more and more!:)

I second that

Copper10-8

May 13th, 2006, 10:06 PM

tech...I like you more and more!:)

And I third that! Wait, that's not good English! 1000 appologies! I'm with ya!

Now of course, you can cut the top of the burka and still wear a baseball hat and/or sew the baseball hat to the top of the burka as long as it doesn't clash:eek: - let me work on that concept!

RevNeal

May 14th, 2006, 01:21 AM

My husband remembers distinctly being told in the 1940's and 1950's by the parish priest :

"Come to church neat and clean. God does not care that your clothes are not new or expensive."

and ...

The important lesson being taught was to be in church each Sunday, not in a fashion show.

If not for the understanding of this type of parish priest, many would have been ashamed to go to church. This was not the intent of the Church nor of God.

Amen and Amen. When I was growing up in the 1960s and early 1970s I can remember having to get all suited up, and how much I disliked it. For some reason it didn't cause me to dislike church, though ... and I eventaully came to like it. :)

Sadly, "neat and clean" is not what I always see when I look out on my congregation. However, even when such isn't the case, I'm still very thankful that they're there. Oh, and by the way ... those that are not "neat and clean" are, very often, those who can MORE than afford to be. They just didn't want to. :o

On one other subject. When one is personally and publicly insulted, it can take a long time to get over the situation.

The internet now calls this flaming and there is way too much of it going on.

It can produce the same long term feelings that children have when they are bullied on the playground. Those feelings can last a lifetime for some people.

Most people who find themselves in such a situation will want to speak up. Defend themselves. The time to heal varies from person to person.

Understanding and non-escalation may be the kindest way to respond.

Indeed, and agreed.

earl_m

May 14th, 2006, 01:33 AM

I was on the april 2 cruise, I recieve a tote bag and they stop any body
from coming in if they were wearing shorts, which I agree with.

sailing nov12 on the westerdam

Vic The Parrot

May 14th, 2006, 05:25 AM

Never fear ... I have plenty to go around. :D ;) :eek:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bepsf
"Waiter! Waiter!"

"Yes, Ma'am?"

"Waiter, someone's chest-hair is in my Soup!"

"Shhh, Not so loud Ma'am. Everyone else will want one too!"

Never fear ... I have plenty to go around.
__________________
Greg+

eeeewwwwwww!!!!!

:D

babyher

May 14th, 2006, 11:09 AM

Tech,

I don't know if this is good english or not *LOL* but I fourth it!!!!!!!!

Another very kind and thoughful post.

I went all through Catholic school and the nuns always said the same thing. Its WHY you are going to church , not what you are wearing. You go there to pray and hear the word of God. Not have a fashion show and gossip with your friends after mass.

In biblical times people would gather in worn robes and dirty sandals and listen to Jesus preach. He never turned them away because they didn't have a tie on. He prayed with them and for them.

I think a lot of people ( NOT ALL) put great stock in what is on the outside of them because it covers up and deflects the crap that is inside of them.

tech

May 14th, 2006, 02:12 PM

babyher, caribbean girl, bepsf, Copper10-8

Grazie Mille

CoconutFish

May 14th, 2006, 02:14 PM

Just back from three weeks on the Zuiderdam.

As mentioned elsewhere, no Dutch night. Also, no tote bags; the most unbelievable informal nights experience in 10 HAL cruises: perhaps 50% the men in the main sitting wore jackets, most wearing short sleeved sports shirts, khakis and running shoes. Ladies were mostly in typically casual night clothing or worse.

What was being worn on casual night could not by any stretch of the imagination be called "resort casual". Too many in running shoes, etc.

Formal night was perversely better, with most men in suits or sports jackets, many tuxes. Ladies were generally not as well dressed as the men (this is a first for our cruises), but more effort was made.

HAL seems to be happy enough to let people just do what they want, thereby becoming just another cruise line, with less and less to dishinguish HAL as a premium line.

kryos

May 14th, 2006, 07:19 PM

HAL seems to be happy enough to let people just do what they want, thereby becoming just another cruise line, with less and less to dishinguish HAL as a premium line.
Hate to pop your bubble, but HAL is a mass market line ... just like many others. The only thing different about them is that they still have many ships in their fleet that appeal to the older, more "refined" passenger, and less to families with kids.

If you want "premium" or "luxury," then your options are Seaborne, Silver Sea or Radisson/Regent ... take your pick.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

May 14th, 2006, 07:36 PM

On our last Princess Cruise we met an older couple from England. The poor lady was almost in tears on formal night. They were from a smaller village and had not traveled very much.

Their son and daughter in law gave them the cruise for their anniversary.

The lady had on a nice short dress suitable for church but not like the long or short cocktail formals that she saw.

She did not know that she needed that type of dress and probably could not have afforded one.
In her mind she had on her "Sunday Best ", but it was not denium.:)

It was sad to see her so unhappy about it and I talked to her for a long time ..tried to help her feel better.

Thank God you were there to talk with her and ease her mind. I sure hope no one made her feel inferior just because she wasn't dripping in beads and diamonds. My feeling is this (and I think it is the feeling of most people) ... as long as you are dressed nicely and in a manner that shows respect for your surroundings, then the heck with what anyone else may choose to say or imply about you not being dressed "appropriately." You are doing the best with what you have. That's all that matters.

It is one thing to come to the dining room dressed in a sloppy pair of jeans and flip flops, and quite another to be dressed very nicely, but not necessarily in what would be considered formal attire. Don't some people realize that there are folks for whom buying specific formal attire would be a waste of what little money they may have available in their clothing budget? Let's say I am an average income workingclass person with a family of five. We have $100 bucks each in our clothing budgets for this year. I can buy good, practical clothes that we will get lots of wear out of in our daily lives, or I can invest in formalwear that we will wear on our cruise and then probably not again until the next time we cruise ... which could be five years from now. Which do you think makes more sense? Personally, I'd worry about dressing nice ... showing respect to my tablemates and compliance to the greatest extent possible with the ship's dress code. But I certainly wouldn't worry that I was wearing a nice pair of slacks with a dressy blouse when all of my tablemates had on cocktail dresses and tuxedos. I would just do the best I can with what I have and the heck with anyone who didn't like it. Hey, if it bothers them that much, let them go eat in the Pinnacle or the Lido.

Of course, before anyone flames me ... I'm not saying this is a license to wear jeans and tee-shirts in the dining room. Surely just about anyone can afford to do better than that.

Blue skies ...

--rita

tech

May 14th, 2006, 08:54 PM

Sadly I think there are many people who do not stop to recognize that not everyone can spend lots of money on clothes.

A general asummation seems to be made that if you can cruise, you can afford to have all the bells and whistles in the area of clothing.

The cruiselines have bigger ships, more cabins and many of the prices have become within the reach of more everyday working people.

There are alot of people in inside cabins at reasonable prices, the whole ship is not composed of suites.

So they save their money to buy the cruise and transportation.

Now comes clothes. They read the "rules " . Then they go shopping.

The sticker shock they experience upon looking at Formal clothes is immense. If you live in a small town, there may not be a store that stocks Formal dress clothes.

When confronted with " I cannot buy filet mignon" what do you do ?
Well, you look around and select a nice reasonable round steak.

So they purchase what they can with an eye to being able to wear it
in their everyday life i.e. church, party, etc.

Or they dust off their older nice clothes. The smaller child gets the older ones hand me downs.

As has been said they cannot purchase something that will just hang in their closet gathering dust.

To insist that everyone marches in lockstep into the dining room in formal wear is not very charitable.

My mother had a saying that "my interest in other peoples business ended at my nose ".

It does not seem to matter how many times this dress issue is discussed or how reasonable some of the posters try to be, there are those who will not try to walk one step in someone else's shoes or pocketbook.

Did everyone on the board grow up in an affluent manner. Does every one of their days confine them to associating only with their social peers ?

Do they not see the people with less ? Do they not see the people who have disabilities that make it hard for them ?

Are they not capable of accepting change and being gracious to those who have less ?

To people with real, everyday problems much of this discussion would be disgusting.

Must we go back to the days of cruising where we had levels of class ?

Should we have steerage ?

You say I go too far in my comparisons. It is only a matter of wanting people to dress formal on formal night.

No, it is more than that. It is an inability to look past the less than stellar dress and see the person inside.

Maybe we should have some understanding and pity for those that do flaunt the dress codes. Something in their life makes them rebel. They have their own inner demons to contend with. A sense of inferiority covered up with bluster ? So many possiblities exist.

They cannot take away your happiness unless you allow them to do so.

People rant about the many people flaunting the dress codes. Yet, we only have a few examples listed for the thousands of cruises that are booked each year.

People reduce themselves to name calling and insults over an issue of dress on a vacation ?

Is this ranting and fighting an outlet for other problems in your life ?

This cannot be that important an issue for you to not respect yourself or your fellow posters by talking to each other in this manner.

The true incivility here is not the person who in your mind flaunts the dress code, but the incivility you are showing each other.

diboja

May 14th, 2006, 09:09 PM

A very insightful, well thought out post Tech!!

ryansmemom

May 15th, 2006, 12:00 AM

Tech,

You make a lot of sense. I just don't understand why you feel you need to rant and rave about it. You only have a few dozen posts on this board. You certainly have as much right to your opinion as everyone else does and I have no problem with that. However, I do wonder about why you need to come on so strongly about the people who post here. You seem to have formed opinions about people you don't know anything about. Yet, I'm sure you would not want anyone to do that about you.

How about doing some research. Click on the people's names and read some of their posts. You might learn something about them. You might find that they do not fit the sterotypes that you have put them in. Just as you would not fit in the one that you might be put in by others.

I reminised on my childhood memories and you told me I was wrong about the times because they did not fit yours. Well, they were mine. I lived my life, not yours. I was a young child. You were a young adult. We did not live in the same place. This is a big country. I never went to church. I'm Jewish. For all the tolerance you ask for, how about showing some.

You ask for tolerance for disabled people. Show some. I'm disabled. My car was broadsided by an eighteen wheeler one day when I was on my way to work. My cervical spine is fused, I have nerve damage and constant chronic nerve pain.

You ask for understanding for those who grew up poor. Guess what. I grew up poor. My family struggled. My husband's family struggled. My father-in-law worked on the assembly line at Budd Company and at the Naval Base in Philadelphia. My father was a bookkeeper and worked for the WPA before I was born. They always wore suits when they went out to dinner or on vacation. Even if my mother and mother in law bought them second hand. Don't lecture people about where you come from and how they don't understand. You don't know where they come from or what they did to get where they are.

All of this class stuff is not in my mind. I guarentee that. All of this people business of people marching lockstep to the dining room is in your mind. You thought of it. Stop projecting.

You seem like a really nice person dispite all of this "holier than thou" stuff. Whay don't you just take some time to get to know people. We are really nice people. Some of us are able to afford what we can afford because we worked hard for it. We have a right to enjoy it without other people attacking us for it. I don't care what other people do or wear. I have never had my cruise ruined or even bothered by anyone else. I have met wonderful people on my cruises.

Just what makes you think other people are not capable of being gracious to people who have less than they do? What is it that makes you think that people who dress well have to be shallow and uncaring and unable to see the inner person? I don't get it. Why are you sterotyping people. It goes both ways. Your mother taught you to be tolerant and not judge people by the way they are dressed. OK how about it?

How about playing nice and getting to know people. Your new, how about building some relationships instead of expressing opinions about people you know nothing about?

Peace!

Linda:)

RevNeal

May 15th, 2006, 12:43 AM

Dear tech,

You have made some excellent points; thank you for sharing your thoughts on these issues. You are especially correct in that too much negative emotion and energy is expended here on topics that really do not merit this much attention.

This being said, I'd like to reflect upon a few of your remarks.

There are alot of people in inside cabins at reasonable prices, the whole ship is not composed of suites.

That is very true. I am one of those people that usually books an inside cabin. Given that I often travel solo, the only way I can afford to cruise as much as I do is by booking inside cabins with single supplements. I pay for my cruises in installments, a few hundred dollars at a time over many months. The only time I ever get to book and cruise in outside cabins or mini-suits is when I team up with family or friends and share the cabin.

So they save their money to buy the cruise and transportation.

Exactly! As I said above, I save up and pay for my cruises by the installment method. It's an expensive hobby, but apart from cruising and my work I don't spend my disposable income on much else.

Now comes clothes. They read the "rules " . Then they go shopping.

The sticker shock they experience upon looking at Formal clothes is immense. If you live in a small town, there may not be a store that stocks Formal dress clothes.

Here is where I find myself in disagreement with you. Have you not looked at the HAL dress code? It doesn't take much (and certainly not a lot of money) for a man or a woman to meet the minimal requirements of the code. One does NOT have to buy formal gear (Tuxedos, etc) in order to dress in conformity with the code. For a guy it can be done with the following:

1. A sport jacket
2. A pair of dress slacks
3. A white dress shirt
4. A couple of ties
5. A pair of black dress shoes

That's it. With the above a guy can be dressed in according to the dress code. And most, if not all, of the above should already be in the average guy's wardrobe. It doesn't take much ... and certainly not a lot of money ... in order to meet the Code. And it is this that makes it difficult for many of us to understand what the "big deal" is. And, yes, this comes from a guy who usually cruises booked in inside cabins and flies economy class on the cheapest routing he can find.

tech

May 15th, 2006, 01:45 AM

Ryansmom

Doth protest too much.

Disabled, you know not if I am ?

Rich or Poor, you know not if I am ?

My husband's family were autoworkers on the line from the 1930's. They did not have suits or the money to buy them. This was the depression. It was a bad time to live through and the lessons learned lasted their whole lifetime.

My husband was badly abused as a child but he overcame that and became a fine and wonderful person.

My family was wealthy. I have seen both sides and neither have an exclusive lock on perfect or imperfect people.

"Holier than thou " is not the premise. That is a very derogatory term to apply to someone. I do not feel superior or holier than anyone. If anything I am still attempting to learn and practice all the lessons I hear on Sunday.

My words were only applying the teaching of a man called Jesus and in other religions a person called a supreme being. All relgions as far as I know attempt to instill kindness to others. All religions are to be respected.

It is the "Golden Rule" , no one said it was ever easy but it is something to be attempted.

To be offended because I try to remind us to be kind to each other is in my opinion very odd.

The reason that I think some people who dress well can be shallow is reading some of the sentiments expressed on several threads on dress.
They have spent many posts complaining about dress in the dining rooms
and how they are offended by it.

If you feel good being dressed up, that is great. You do not have to be defensive about it. No one thinks it is wrong for you to dress up, we just are asking for the ability to be accepted if we are not dressed to the nines.
That is why the cruiselines are developing "Alternative dining ".

I also have lived my whole life with people of means and many can be shallow when it comes to understanding the plight of poor people.
Just as many can be magnificient in their understanding and giving to
causes.

As to being new. No not posted. But have read these boards for four years.
I have followed many people as they posted on different threads.

As to posting with opinions when one is new, that should always be considered a right. This is a public board and I know of no rules on when
the number of posts allows one to express an opinion.

I have attempted to write my posts in general terms. I see much of this as a problem in society as a whole. The board is a microcosm of society.

You have decided to write a post about me personally.

In doing this you have made it a personal issue and this proves my point about civility.

We should discuss all the subjects objectively in general terms without
using personal names or targeting one person.

I never sought you out by name or anyone else.

If you believe my attempt to bring some balance to this board is being too religious, then that is certainly unfortunate.

I just believe that we all can benefit by stepping back and thinking.

As I write this, I can imagine that I still am not being accepted by you for just my honest feelings.

When I ask for tolerance for disabled people, why would you assume that I would not show it to you ? Of course I would, I have worked with many disabled people through the years. My niece has Epilepsy, it is a very
difficult disease to manage.

You see my posts as a rant and rave. Interesting. I do not believe any of my sentences have been wild, out of control or shouted in capital letters.

I continue to post on this thread because there continue to be posts that I wished to address. Each of my posts have brought up a different way to try and express the same message.

One is not free to do that? Would you please count the number of posts on this thread by the same people ? This is called a discussion. Exchange of ideas.

I am very puzzled as to why you felt it necessary to address this issue by pointing out me personally. Also I speak of my mother, but prefer that others do not presume to bring her into the fray, if it is a fray.

This is Mother's Day and she has been gone for 12 years. Not a day goes by that I do not think of her. She was a wonderful woman and it was a priviledge to be her daughter.

I promise to give up my attempt to explain. Please let it end here.

Copper10-8

May 15th, 2006, 01:52 AM

Tech, you rock, girl! Keep up the good work! Hope to see you here a lot more!

herb

May 15th, 2006, 08:30 AM

Tech, you rock, girl! Keep up the good work! Hope to see you here a lot more!

Agreed! Great post tech :)

GA girl

May 15th, 2006, 09:47 AM

Tech, thank you, thank you! Very clear and nonjudgmental posts....perhaps we should all re-read them several times.

babyher

May 15th, 2006, 09:54 AM

Tech,

You may be relatively new here ( posting wise), but you have made some very strong points.

It is a pleasure to read your posts. They are thoughtful, insightful and full of compassion.

Thank you for finally joining in here :)

Looking forward to many more of your posts.

caribbean girl

May 15th, 2006, 10:42 AM

Thanks tech...you continue to be objective, controlled and wise in your remarks. How inspiring of you to respond without resorting to 'tit for tat'. No one here is required to post a resume or even speak about their personal life unless one feels led to...and, to refer to tenure on CC and number of posts as any kind as criteria for being able to express one's opinions is ludicrous. Each time I see that, I wince. I cannot stand it when I read that people justify jumping on someone who is new here and whose opinion they seem to disagree with, by saying they do not know them or have never seen them around before. I've even heard some question other's true identity!!:eek: How assumptive!! Who decided that public humiliation is justified as some kind of initiation rite here? All you've really done is to express your opinions. If someone chooses to read it as preaching, well then so be it. Frankly, there is plenty of preaching to go around in these parts...I'm surprised you're being chided for it.

You are correct...you do not really need to know very much about a person to get the picture from reading some of the posts on these boards. Sadly, it seems that people do not realize how they come across when they express themselves in writing. Once one writes something, it makes it somewhat permanent. Unless of course one chooses to edit, which is always an option. 'Think before you speak' comes to mind, though here, we write. Please know, as I think you already do:) , that there are those of us who value your opinions. This is indeed a public forum and everyone should feel free to speak their views politely (as you have done) without fear of reprisal or chastisement. I have a feeling that, when and if the time comes that we disagree, we shall be able to do so respectfully.

Three cheers to you!:D

ryansmemom

May 15th, 2006, 11:27 AM

How amazingly predictable! I'm not even sure anyone actually read what I wrote, given the response.

Linda

dakrewser

May 15th, 2006, 11:29 AM

Tech: re: "My husband's family were autoworkers on the line from the 1930's. They did not have suits or the money to buy them. This was the depression."

Oh, please! Those who had jobs on the assembly lines were among the elite of the 30's - most people had little or no work. And I'd be willing to bet that most had suites, ties and wore hats to work each day. Everyone did in those days.

As to being judgemental - you're the one who equates dressing well with being boorish. So get off your high horse.

No one has said that everyone needs to wear a tux and/or evening gown.

No one has said that a sports jacket on another diner would "ruin their meal".

All that the traditionalists ask is that everyone follow the rules. Is that really too much to ask?

mickeyfitz

May 15th, 2006, 12:14 PM

Thanks Dakrewser, you are exactly right. It seems that in every discussion about dress code issues, those who don't want any enforcement of the rules by HAL set up "strawman" arguments, mischaracterizing the positions of those in favor of enforcement. All most of us want is enforcement of the minimum( yes, minimum!) requirements. I don't recall anyone ever being criticized for not "dressing to the nines" but only for flagrant and completely avoidable violations.

tortugas

May 15th, 2006, 10:40 PM

Here's what I find most interesting... previously, those in favor of formal dressing would wield the words of HAL like a big stick, using it to beat down anyone who would dare to suggest that jeans are ok. It would always be about how "why can't you people follow THE RULES" blah blah blah. And NOW HAL, at least on SOME sailings, has clearly eliminated the "no jeans" rule on casual nights. And then we get a response like this one:

"I live in jeans. But when the dress code does not allow jeans, I simply do not wear them. I think that HAL being a classy line, would stick up and say "no jeans" in the dining room. Period. End of story. On my next cruise in July to Alaska on the Zuiderdam, I am going to adhere and do not wear the comfortable jeans to the dining room. Even if you are allowed, I am going to show respect and dress like everyone else on the appropriate "dress" night."

So first, it was about showing respect for THE RULES, and now it's about showing respect for what???

Please be assured, I am in no way attacking the above poster, this particular post just seemed to be representative of a general mindset. Clearly, HAL has spoken, so now what?

We just got back from Westerdam Alaska, and there were jeans o plenty, EVERYWHERE! We felt overdressed the night we ate in Pinnacle Grill, where the most popular attire was a fleece vest with JUNEAU written on it! I could care less either way... I'm just reporting what I observed.

Whether you support the changing/more casual dress code or not, it is what it is, so you may well have to learn to live with it. Dress up, dress down, just enjoy!!

nanashirl

May 15th, 2006, 10:55 PM

Thanks tortugas for your comments about your past cruise. I am glad to hear that on the CASUAL nights that jeans were acceptable. Agree that you should dress as requested by HA but since they have changed the code for casual nights so that jeans are acceptable this should stop all the confusion. On our docs for our cruise on the Westerdam it did omit jeans from clothing that was not acceptable. Hope this puts this topic to bed and everyone can enjoy their cruise.

Copper10-8

May 15th, 2006, 11:17 PM

nanashirl

May 15th, 2006, 11:40 PM

Copper10-8 thanks for your offer of help.
But not really planning on holding my breath unless it is in anticipation of my next cruise. Wouldn't let anything that trivial bother me. I'm sure everyone will forget all about it the minute they step on the ship.
Happy Cruising to everyone.

Copper10-8

May 15th, 2006, 11:44 PM

Copper10-12 thanks for your offer of help.
But not really planning on holding my breath unless it is in anticapation of my next cruise. Wouldn't let any thing that trivial bother me. I'm sure everyone will forget all about it the minute they step on the ship.
Happy Cruising to everyone.

You've got the right attitude! Enjoy your next cruise!

RevNeal

May 16th, 2006, 10:59 AM

nanashirl,

You might want to check the link-coding for the images (I think they are counters?) in your signature. They're not working, and the resulting code being displayed in your signature is causing your posts to take up a great deal of display space on the board. I'm sure you'd like your counters to function. :)

RevNeal

May 16th, 2006, 11:17 AM

Here's what I find most interesting... previously, those in favor of formal dressing would wield the words of HAL like a big stick, using it to beat down anyone who would dare to suggest that jeans are ok. It would always be about how "why can't you people follow THE RULES" blah blah blah.

tortugas, I don't think that we're wielding HAL's dress code like a big stick. I usually post it (or at least part of it) when someone asks what HAL's code says or means, or when someone asks what is considered "appropriate" dress for the various nights on HAL, or when someone asks if something specific is acceptable on HAL. It seems to me that such a question is asking for information, and HAL does have a dress code which provides information which answers such questions. That some people want to disregard those answers doesn't mitigate the fact that such answers exist. I would much rather provide information, and a bit of interpretation, and allow those with the questions to draw their own conclusions, than to take it upon myself to actively encourage someone to just "do whatever they want because the dress code is unimportant and most people ignore it anyway" (which is an erroneous claim that we've seen here, many times, by certain posters).

The dress code is not a weapon for wielding, and those of us who quote it are not attacking others by doing-so. We are simply providing information, and an interpretation of that information, in an attempt to be helpful. Do I, personally, wish that more people would observe the Dress Code? Yes, I do. And, you know something, my experience shows that MOST people DO observe the dress code. It's those rare one who don't that really stand out. Sometimes it would appear that they don't care; but I have noticed, other-times, that many of these people appear to be very uncomfortable being among the very few who are not properly dressed, and I cannot help but feel sorry for them. I wonder if they never read the "Know Before You Go" booklet, or did they have a horrible TA, or was it that someone on a discussion board someplace told them: "don't worry about it, no one pays any attention to the dress code on those ships anyway ... only about 10% were dressed up on formal night on my friend's cruise, so don't you bother with it either."