Dumping The Elderly

[kakalina]

On our thirty day Panama/Amazon cruise last fall there was a woman in her eighties who had been put on the ship by her children. She wasn't competant at all and would stand in her cabin doorway grabbing passers by and asking them when her dinner was. At other times she would stand in her doorway in the evening with a lovely beaded top on and nothing else. When we reached the first port she was escorted off the ship and her relatives were advised to come and get her.

This is not the first person we've seen sailing who really wasn't competant to be travelling alone; just the most disturbing.

Have any of you noticed this sad trend to use a cruise ship as a de facto nursing home??

[jhannah]

No, I haven't. But I fondly remember Momma Lou who "lived" on the Zaandam. (I believe she passed away last year.) She was there by choice, however.

I can't imagine anyone putting a person like this on a cruise ship to fend for themselves. If that's truly what happened, it's elder abuse plain and simple.

[RuthC]

I've never seen it---and hope I never do.

I agree with Jim: it's elder abuse, pure and simple. I hope HAL contacted the authorities in the woman's home state and made a report. Depending on the circumstances the Elderly Affairs department could step in to evaluate her home life, and possible step in to make arrangements to have her properly cared for.

[boomerSexyK]

It really is a shame the way some people treat their elders. And with Mother's Day coming up too!!

[shonuf]

What an awful thing to even think about. I sailed with my mom as long as she was physically able; last cruise she was in a wheelchair. But she loved/loves cruising. She'd go again in a heartbeat. Her mind is willing but the body is weak. She'd never even be able to survive the flights to the departure point at this point. Every time I mention going on a cruise, she says "I sure would like to go on another one". She has some brain damage as a result of a bad fall last summer so I don't think she realizes how much care she requires (like 24 hour sitters).

The funny thing about our cruises is that I never was really sure what it was she enjoyed so much. She is very deaf and so dinner table conversation was always difficult for her; she didn't enjoy loud music so she didn't care for the musical shows or bars and too deaf to enjoy the comedians. She didn't like the pool or the beach and never cared for shopping. She enjoyed having me dress her and do her hair and makeup for dinner each nite. Didn't care that much for the food tho, didn't like a big meal at night. She did like having me go to the Lido and bring her breakfast back to the room and eating breakfast in her jammies on the verandah.

But she loved Holland America; her favorite staffer was Mark Cox.

That family should be ashamed of themselves.

[NoNoNanette]

That story literally brought tears to my eyes. Mom passed away 2 years ago at 86...we were best friends. By the time I was turned on to cruising, her health was too poor to join us.

What a horrid story. :(

[kryos]

Have any of you noticed this sad trend to use a cruise ship as a de facto nursing home??
If you remember, one of the ladies on our roll call for the Hawaii/South Pacific cruise (sadly, her name escapes me now) was telling us at the CC gathering about a woman who was seated at her dining table on another cruise. The woman talked stuff that made absolutely no sense. Obviously, she was a bit senile and she was traveling alone as well. Her family had dumped her on the cruise (which I believe was a holiday sailing). Guess they didn't want to be troubled by her over the holidays.

Frankly, when I hear about this stuff, I blame the folks at embarkation in the terminal. When they see someone like that ... clearly not of a right mind and attempting to board the ship without someone traveling along to look after them ... they should not allow them to embark. Rather, they should call someone from Security, and let Security handle getting in touch with their family to come and pick them up. HAL (nor any other cruise line for that matter) is in the business of providing nursing care.

It is not fair to expect the staff/crew of the ship to look after these folks for the length of the cruise ... which is exactly what they end up doing when someone "incompetent" sails alone. The crew has enough work to do ... they don't really have the time to be playing nursemaid too. That's the job of the families of these folks.

The really sad thing is that many of these older folks have substantial resources which the children will inherit when they are gone. Good. The children are going to come into a windfall some day. Then let them take care of their folks while they are still alive. It's only fair.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

The funny thing about our cruises is that I never was really sure what it was she enjoyed so much.
Sometimes just the environment of a cruise ship ... the elegance, the relaxing lifestyle ... is all they need to be very, very happy. Heck, I'm only 50 and that's sure enough for me. :)

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

That story literally brought tears to my eyes. Mom passed away 2 years ago at 86...we were best friends. By the time I was turned on to cruising, her health was too poor to join us.

Nanette, we are in the same boat, so to speak. My mom died about four years ago, and we were very, very close. I'm still not over her death. While mom and dad never traveled much, and neither would consider getting on an airplane, I have the feeling mom would have loved cruising. Dad still won't cruise. But, mom would have really enjoyed it.

I'm only sorry that I didn't "discover" the joys of cruising until she was gone, because I think she would have gone along with me and really enjoyed it. And, if she insisted on going, I think she could have gotten dad to go along as well.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Mary Ellen]

Years ago (1980s) on a Royal Viking cruise our table was with some of the entertainers. They provided an interesting look at cruising. We had been thinking of a Holiday cruise. They found them sad, as they felt many 'elderly' were sent on the cruises so the families didn't have to deal with them. We lost our interest in a Holiday cruise since hearing that.

[sail7seas]

Why do you assume she had adult children who were abusing her?
How do you know she had children?
How do you know anything about her to judge how/who should have been taking care of her?

Sorry......I find the above questions pertinent and relevent before we get all rightgeous about who was not doing what they should have to see to her needs.

Maybe there was no one in her life to take care of her??

[sail7seas]

Years ago (1980s) on a Royal Viking cruise our table was with some of the entertainers. They provided an interesting look at cruising. We had been thinking of a Holiday cruise. They found them sad, as they felt many 'elderly' were sent on the cruises so the families didn't have to deal with them. We lost our interest in a Holiday cruise since hearing that.

I'm sorry you were given such a misguided impression of holiday cruises. We have been on a number of them and what you describe could not be further from the reality.


We see huge family groups of mulitple generations. Sometimes 40-50-60 people in a family and it is a treat to see them all enjoying eachother.

We see the small family units; we see couples; we see tons of children......just like on any/every cruise....you see all sorts.

IF you had/have an interest in a holiday cruise, you may wish to reconsider your decision to avoid them for the reason stated.

[Pudgesmom]

Why do you assume she had adult children who were abusing her?
How do you know she had children?
How do you know anything about her to judge how/who should have been taking care of her?

Sorry......I find the above questions pertinent and relevent before we get all rightgeous about who was not doing what they should have to see to her needs.

Maybe there was no one in her life to take care of her??



I agree with you here, Sail, and would like to add another possibility.

Its possible that she boarded the ship in full command of herself, and then something happened. My father passed away last year, but he suffered several strokes before that. Decreased mental capacity is often the sign of a stroke. I don't think we have enough information here to determine what really happened in this woman's life before or after she boarded.

Beth

[jhannah]

Maybe there was no one in her life to take care of her?? I understand your points. Well taken. However, if the woman was behaving as reported, she could have hardly had the presence of mind to book a cruise and board by herself. Someone had to assist her in booking and getting her into the embarkation lounge. (Unless she "snapped" once she got onboard.) Plus, the OP mentioned that the ship notified her relatives to come get her.

[sail7seas]

With all Respect to the OP......I wonder how they would know who was contacted? By whom? I know how much senior staff (all crew/staff) respect guests' privacy and it is very highly unlikely any 'accurate' from the horses' mouth info was spread around to anyone. They simply do NOT talk about guests private business. I'm happy someone saw to it she was removed safely from the ship but who knows how??? Or in whose care??

I see your excellent points, Jim. Maybe she had lucid moments and other times of utter confusion?

Who knows? Just speculation. One can only hope she is being cared for now.

[NoNoNanette]

Oh, Rita- I'm so sorry for your loss, honey. It sounds as though we are, indeed, in the same boat. What an emotional wrench! :(

They're watching us with big smiles, kiddo.;)

[kryos]

Maybe there was no one in her life to take care of her??


Then how did she get on the boat? Someone had to make all the arrangements if she was unable to make them herself.

In the case of the story I heard, the fellow CCer said she tried to talk to her ... get some information from her ... and the woman said that her children sent her on the cruise. This fellow CCer also told me that the crew (her cabin steward) basically got stuck checking on her and to some extent taking care of her personal needs ... making sure she dressed, bathed, etc.

From what I understand, the woman wasn't totally helpless; i.e., she was able to find her way back to her cabin ... maybe sometimes with a little help ... but she would often get confused and that's when someone from the crew would have to step in.

Sad. Her family should have been doing that ... or at least should have placed her in an environment appropriate for having those needs met.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[N.FL Cruisers]

kakalina: How sad. I hope it is not a trend. I do know that my uncle went on a cruise and was in some stage of Altimers (have no idea the spelling). All he talked about was the cruise and then when he went on the ship he had a terrible time. My aunt, her husband got real sick from something during the cruise and was in bed most of the time. My uncle kept escaping from the cabin getting lost every where. She said she tried her best to keep him with her but he would escape the cabin and wonder. My parents went with them on the cruise and my Aunt said she would call my parents to go on search parties to find him just sitting someplace for hours. I guess he looked like he was dumped too. That was his last vacation when she came to terms with his capibitlies.

[ashtyn]

I can say this only because I have seen something similar first hand. I am a nurse and have had patients who have been mistreated (abused) to the point that they have to be admitted to the hospital. Why would people do this? It usually falls around the holidays, sping break or summer holiday. At the same time, there is nobody that comes to visit them while in the hospital. The staff usually knows that the patient is too difficult to take on vacation with the family and this is the way that the family handles it.:mad: So sad.

[JLT]

I was on that cruise and I remember this woman. Yes, she did seemed a little confused about which direction to take to get to the dining room. Don't a lot of people have to ask those directions? And she was traveling alone. Aren't a lot of people? And she was rather frail. Aren't a lot of others on a cruise? But she was on the ship for longer than was indicated. She told me that her family had brought her to the cruise port. I certainly never heard any tales of her wandering undressed. And I don't think this constitutes any kind of trend.

[sail7seas]

deleted

[wander]

Having worked in medical settings with many geriatric men and women, I would believe almost anything of some families. HOWEVER, there are several other possibilities as to the situation, besides some mentioned above.

1. Perhaps she neglected to take some of her medicines. Depending on the meds, this can lead to confusion, difficulty in making wise decisions, etc. This happens all too often even with people at home.

2. "Sundowners" syndrome. Some aging folks do great in the morning, but as the day progresses, become increasingly confused, particularly in the evening.

3. I was on several cruises with a very elderly woman who had not children and was a widow. She had alot of money. She would call the travel agency (same as mine) and they would just make all the arrangements for her, including home pick-up for the airport, being met at every point, etc. An attorney and an accountant handled all her money, paid her bills, etc. On the cruises she did just fine until her last one. On this cruise she obviously was no longer able to handle all on her own. She would get lost getting to her cabin, forget when or where dinner was, forget whether she ate or not, woke-up one night at 1:00 AM and went to the Lido for lunch, and the list goes on. No one "put her on the ship", she had cruised for years and years, and months at a time. However, things had changed. When we got home I did suggest to the travel agency that perhaps she should not travel alone anymore. From all they had heard from others as well, they did determine that they would require her to take an Aide if she call them again. As it turns out, she realized that it was too much for her and she voluntarily stopped cruising.

4. Sometimes children are honestly unaware of problems mom or dad are having. I have seen this so very many times. They do not see their parents in situations where decisions have to be made.

Just some thoughts - no answers as I certainly do not know enough about her situation to predict what was wrong.

[sail7seas]

Thank you, Wander......

Excellent post.

[wander]

sail7seas

Thank you for your nice comment.

[kimmeesook]

good insight. in addition, i would add:

1. any sort of adjustment away from a normal routine may contribute to the erratic behavior.

2. assess for any physical changes/medical conditions that may be affecting her actions.

3. assess for delerium.

another side-thought: if for some reason the individual was "dumped" by her family... and if it was intentional neglect, because adult protective services are a county operated program, i wonder how it would be handled... especially on a foreign vessel.

Having worked in medical settings with many geriatric men and women, I would believe almost anything of some families. HOWEVER, there are several other possibilities as to the situation, besides some mentioned above.

1. Perhaps she neglected to take some of her medicines. Depending on the meds, this can lead to confusion, difficulty in making wise decisions, etc. This happens all too often even with people at home.

2. "Sundowners" syndrome. Some aging folks do great in the morning, but as the day progresses, become increasingly confused, particularly in the evening.

3. I was on several cruises with a very elderly woman who had not children and was a widow. She had alot of money. She would call the travel agency (same as mine) and they would just make all the arrangements for her, including home pick-up for the airport, being met at every point, etc. An attorney and an accountant handled all her money, paid her bills, etc. On the cruises she did just fine until her last one. On this cruise she obviously was no longer able to handle all on her own. She would get lost getting to her cabin, forget when or where dinner was, forget whether she ate or not, woke-up one night at 1:00 AM and went to the Lido for lunch, and the list goes on. No one "put her on the ship", she had cruised for years and years, and months at a time. However, things had changed. When we got home I did suggest to the travel agency that perhaps she should not travel alone anymore. From all they had heard from others as well, they did determine that they would require her to take an Aide if she call them again. As it turns out, she realized that it was too much for her and she voluntarily stopped cruising.

4. Sometimes children are honestly unaware of problems mom or dad are having. I have seen this so very many times. They do not see their parents in situations where decisions have to be made.

Just some thoughts - no answers as I certainly do not know enough about her situation to predict what was wrong.

[MeOhMy]

Shonuf:
Maybe she just enjoyed because of the time she spent with you. Just the two of you.

That is how my mother (85) and I feel.

[Cachecara]

I have worked in geriatrics--specifically alzheimers for the last 15 yrs. SO many, many times families are in denial about their loved ones. They will say mom or dad is becoming slightly confused when in reality they are far BEYOND slightly. :confused: I can't answer for them, but all I can say is it is not uncommon whatsoever for families to be in great denial. I have often wondered how the one experiencing dementia/alzheimers did not injure or jeopardize themself or others prior to getting supervised care. :(

[SDHALFAN]

Wander, I agree with Sail in that that was an excellent post.

We were on the first leg of the Rotterdam's Inaugural GWV in 1998 (I know, you've all heard that before, ad nauseum:D ) and there was a lady aboard, far wealthier than we were obviously, who was taking the entire voyage. She wasn't very old (in her mid 50's at the most) and travelling solo but she seemed to be confused most of the time. One of our "pillow gifts" was a fluffy, terrycloth robe and this lady could be found wandering all over the ship at all hours of the day wearing her robe. I tried to engage her in conversation but it was obvious that she wasn't interested in making friends and preferred to be by herself and what little conversation we had did not make any sense to me whatsoever.

In Fiji we were on a tour with her that included the Shotover Boat ride. Now, I'm as chicken as they come and said no way am I getting on that thing and I let my husband go by himself. This lady insisted on boarding the Shotover Boat and off they took. I said to myself now that's a huge mistake and sure enough the boat went a short way and then headed back to the dock to "unload" this passenger, whereupon she wandered off down the road somewhere by herself. She was not on our bus but she must have got back to her bus eventually because I did see her around the ship later that week.

I have thought about her a lot over the years and although at the time I thought that her family just sent her on a cruise to "get rid of her", lately I have been wondering if maybe she was on medication and either "forgot" to take the medication or maybe over or under dosed. Anyway, God bless her and I hope that she is fine and is still enjoying her cruises.

Valerie:)

[Himself]

Frankly I don't think anyone who is incompetant should be put on a cruise ship alone. However, if I had the means and my wits about me I would rather spend my time on a cruise ship than in a nursing home. First of all it is cheaper and it would keep me sane.

[lvs2crooz]

I also agree we shouldn't be to hasty to judge. I adore my mother and my father (deceased 1996) and I believe in" honoring thy mother and father" and have lived that. I have always taken good care of my parents, and continue to take good care of my mother. My siblings and I make daily phone calls to her and visit every three months (different states). The last trip my parents took was on a cruise my husband and I paid for. It was on the Crown Princess (didn't know much about Holland America at the time). My dad loved to cruise and my husband and I wanted to make that a part of his final days. He was in the last stage of his illness, wasn't feeling top notch, but mom said this cruise made him so happy. They ended up with fantastic tablemates that made dad laugh so much. Every time I step aboard a ship, I think of my parents and the great times they've had sailing. My mom still doesn't feel ready to cruise again (the memories of dad are too painful), but every year we try to convince her to cruise with us. I couldn't imagine sending her off on her own. Time is too precious and I want her with us whenever she can be. Mary

[mrblack]

Mary Ellen , you commented about holiday cruises being sad--two years ago we did a holiday cruise because our 4 children are grown but still relatively single. It was fantastic. We also took along 'grandma' 83 who had been hit by a truck about 9 weeks before and was recovering from a hip replacement for the broken hip and a very badly broken arm. We were very concerned about her because it was her first cruise and she was supposed to travel from Canada by herself to Miami. Our daughter who has travelled alone thru Europe and southeast asia went and travelled with her. It was a treat to see them come thru the gate in Miami--her in the wheelchair with a suitcase on her lap being pushed by our daughter with a huge backpack to which she had attached another of grandma's suitcase on wheels and carrying her quad cane. The girls went to her room and helped her get up in the morning and helped her at night get ready for bed. By the end of the cruise it was amazing how much she had improved. she barely even needed the quad cane as all the walking on the cruise ship was the best physiotherapy she could ever have had. Since then she has been on 2 other cruises with us and is looking forward to another one with us next December. I think cruising is a great way to share holiday time with your aged parents. :) Oh by the way she's my mother-in-law but we still enjoy each other's company.;)

[ocngypz]

I spent a number of years as a tour director, escorting senior groups.

Unfortunately, yes, the children of these elderly folks (most often widows)
do dump them.. be it on a cruise.. or on a motorocoach tour.

I need more than my fingers and toes to count the folks I have sent home because they were either mentally or physically unable to proceed traveling without one on one 24 hr supervision.

My father suffered from Alzheimer's... even in the early stages, I wouldn't let him visit my aunt in Nova Scotia without a traveling companion if I were not able to accompany him.

You can cast a blind eye, but it happens every day.

[Krazy Kruizers]

That is so sad to read. So far we have never seen anything like that in all of our cruises. Maybe there was someone there like that on the ship but we never encountered anyone and never heard of anyone in that condition being put off of a ship.

I don't think I would even want to travel if either DH or I were in that condition.

[FoxyTerrier]

When we reached the first port she was escorted off the ship and her relatives were advised to come and get her.

If this really happened I find it really disturbing. How could they leave this poor woman at the port just waiting for family to come and get her.

If she really needed to get off the ship I would hope the that staff would have contacted the family and had them meet the ship where a family member could escort her off the ship and then back home.

Just for the record - I am 48 and I often get confused as to which way to get to the dining room especially the first couple of day.

[Crazy]

I ready this post yesterday and the many responses. It was still in my thoughts when I had dinner with with my brother who is 84 and another brother and his wife who are 83 and 80. We had such a great conversation on current events, books we were reading, health care system, our aches and pains and talking about our next cruises. I am 66 and the youngest -- there were seven of us and only 3 left with a big extended family. We lost the middle three to cancer and just recently our brother who was 80. We took care of our parents when they were older, my dad died at 81 and my mom at 92 -- this was the way we were raised -- they gave us love, took care of us, gave us our values (not a lot of money, we all worked, went to college some finished some didn't) we passed along thoses values to our children, who are in turn are doing the same. I was the only one who didn't marry -- which was my choice. The thought of people doing this to elderly breaks my heart, but I have seen it especially in nursing homes. I have a niece (by marriage) who is a CCO at a big nursing home chain and it is very common to put your parents there, pay the bills and never come to see them.

I love the holiday cruises and have been the last three years.

Thank you for letting me post here.

Emily in Nashville

[babyher]

My Mom lives in Florida in a retirement condo. Thank God she is still in very good health and sharp as a tack :), but she tells me there are people who live in units around her that should just not live alone. They are either physically or mentally incapable . Add to that the scary fact that most of them have cars and drive !!!!!!!!

My mom says most of them do have children, some come to visit some don't. But for the most part they are on their own and they are a danger to themselves and others. They leave stoves on, they leave cigarettes burning, They wander God knows where. She doesn't even want to think how they get in a car and get from place to place.

It is just so sad.

[CPeters40]

No, I haven't. But I fondly remember Momma Lou who "lived" on the Zaandam. (I believe she passed away last year.) She was there by choice, however.

I can't imagine anyone putting a person like this on a cruise ship to fend for themselves. If that's truly what happened, it's elder abuse plain and simple.

Not sure how to insert an image, but Momma Lou was alive and well on the Volendam on Jan 3, 2006. So, as Mark Twain would say, the reports of Mama Lou's death are greatly exaggerated.

Chris
Volenam 1/03/06

[MikeT718]

No, I haven't. But I fondly remember Momma Lou who "lived" on the Zaandam. (I believe she passed away last year.) She was there by choice, however.

I can't imagine anyone putting a person like this on a cruise ship to fend for themselves. If that's truly what happened, it's elder abuse plain and simple.

It really sadens me to find out that Mama Lou passed away..We were fortunate to be able to meet her on our Zaandam cruise in Feb. of 05..She was a very nice woman a great link between Pax and the crew..I remember that she talked me into doing the "Great Prentenders" show and I am so glad she did I had a blast..The Zaandam will miss a nice lady..

sorry that I hijacked this thread but I needed to say the things that I said

[shonuf]

I have worked in geriatrics--specifically alzheimers for the last 15 yrs. SO many, many times families are in denial about their loved ones. They will say mom or dad is becoming slightly confused when in reality they are far BEYOND slightly. :confused: I can't answer for them, but all I can say is it is not uncommon whatsoever for families to be in great denial. I have often wondered how the one experiencing dementia/alzheimers did not injure or jeopardize themself or others prior to getting supervised care. :(

DH and I have been married almost 35 years and his mother passed away last year (in her 90's). She and I never had much of a relationship but eventually I realized she didn't have a relationship with any of her family. She was always very opinionated and determined to get her own way and the family had decided it was just easier to let her have her way.

A few years ago, I did some research on dementia and found out she was a text-book case. As I shared my findings with DH and his siblings, it was like a light bulb came on over their heads. All of a sudden, things made sense to them. She had suffered a nervous breakdown about 50 years ago and had never received any treatment/therapy. She had OCD, agoraphobia, and a small brain tumor.

If you had met her for a few minutes, you would have thought "What a charming lady". If the conversation lasted very long, you would have realized she "cycled" about every 5-8 minutes. Unfortunately the family doctor who had treated her for all those years never diagnosed the problem so everyone went along "dumb and happy". We did eventually move her into assisted living, as we feared for her safety.

[kakalina]

With all Respect to the OP......I wonder how they would know who was contacted? By whom? I know how much senior staff (all crew/staff) respect guests' privacy and it is very highly unlikely any 'accurate' from the horses' mouth info was spread around to anyone. They simply do NOT talk about guests private business. I'm happy someone saw to it she was removed safely from the ship but who knows how??? Or in whose care??

I see your excellent points, Jim. Maybe she had lucid moments and other times of utter confusion?

Who knows? Just speculation. One can only hope she is being cared for now.




Judy, Please allow me to answer your questions.

I know who was contacted and the other elements for two reasons. Our cabin was just a few doors down from hers and she had pulled me into her cabin to assist her and she and I talked a bit. I was the one who discussed her situation with the hotel manager and advised him to check into it.. When he thanked me for bringing this sad state of affairs to his attention so he could deal with it, he also was kind enough to share the resolution of said problem with us.

A staff member escorted the lady on her flight to her home where she was then released to relatives. No, the staff does not normally share this information with everyone, however, I was somewhat involved and knew this hotel manager quite well.

JLT: Perhaps you didn't speak to her much. As she was a neighbor we saw her daily, several times, and the poor thing was running the room stewards crazy. She wouldn't let them in to clean and the corridor by her door smelled badly. She asked my assistance when she couldn't figure out how to call the front office to report a problem with a light ( there was no problem with the light she was just confusted by so many swithches).

I volunteer at our local VA hospital. I have dealt with the elderly quite a bit in my lifetime. I was shocked also that she was alone. I can't imagine how she managed to board the ship without raising a few red flags.

I must admit that those of you who question my veracity have made me question the wisdom of sharing with you if you are going to doubt what I say.

[jhannah]

Not sure how to insert an image, but Momma Lou was alive and well on the Volendam on Jan 3, 2006. Okay. My knowledge is not first-hand. I'm just going off of what a crew member on the Oosterdam told my DW last week. He may or may not have known for sure ... or her death could have been in recent months ... or she may still be going strong.

[FlorenceItaly]

I must admit that those of you who question my veracity have made me question the wisdom of sharing with you if you are going to doubt what I say.

Unfortunately, my observation is that this is a common occurence on ALL the boards on CC, not just the HAL board. Please don't let it discourage you from sharing your experiences.

Marie

[sail7seas]

Kakalina.....

I do NOT question your veracity or sincerity. I felt it pertient to say that, throughout a great many conversations, I never heard any Officer/crew/staff person say anything about any guest. Some readers could have had the impression that a guest's private situation was being freely discussed around the ship by ship's officers/crew.


I am very sure they would never have put her off the ship and left her standing alone on the pier.

It is good this lady was ultimately taken care of.

[kakalina]

Sails, Thanks for clarifying your position. You are so very respectd on the boards that I was concerned others would think you knew something that would make my statements questionable.

You know, as you are very observant, that I try to take my time and add something to the boards not just write to see my own sig.

I felt this should be addressed as this isn't the first time we have encountered this on HAL, just the worst time. Had any one of you been there you would have felt the same pity and sadness I did for the pax.

I actually read an article the other day that said more and more persons were using cruise ships as babysitters and nursing homes for the elderly. They are well taken care of, they are fed and looked after, and medical facilities are readily available. This may be fine for those still able to function, but sadly not always.

Didn't mean to get on my soapbox but it is soooo pitiful.

[LHC]

I am blessed with great genetics. I had a great grandmother until I was 42 years old. We women in the family live a long time just to cause havoc on those around us. We are feisty women.
As a nurse, I see elderly abuse and neglect everywhere. In America, we do not read the Old Testament many times that says to Honor our Father and our Mother so our days can be long upon this earth. Other countries are much more respectful for the knowledge, elegance, and need for the elderly, so we can learn from them and enjoy the extensions to our family heritage and culture.
On another page, as I have elderly parents, who are both in states of declining health, yet are holding onto any shread of independence whether it is healthy for them or for others, I know it is hard to set boundaries which are exceptable for both of us. My Dad has inoperable lung cancer which he has successfully battled for 3 years. Now he has signs of reoccurence along with some frightening coughing spells and even blacking outs. His MRI shows areas of mini-strokes probably secondary to anoxia (lack of oxygen in his system). He refuses to give up driving, something every doctor he sees marks his medical record with NO Driving. I have explained the legal ramifications of this, the liability he is taking for himself and for Mom, yet he continues to drive. He is staying within 5 miles of there home using familiar routes but still could have a syncope (passing out) episode at any minute. Dad is the driver for Mom as she has macular degeneration and has done their multiple small task each day: post office, grocery store, drugstore, etc......I may be 52 and a RN but you can only do so much to Stop your parents.
That said I would no more put either one of my parents on a cruise ship, plane, train, vacation that either myself or my sister where in attendance.
We will all be elderly(hopefully) and as long as we have our functioning, cruising will be in our futures, but when safety becomes an issue it must stop (sad to say).
Linda

[kryos]

He refuses to give up driving, something every doctor he sees marks his medical record with NO Driving. I have explained the legal ramifications of this, the liability he is taking for himself and for Mom, yet he continues to drive. He is staying within 5 miles of there home using familiar routes but still could have a syncope (passing out) episode at any minute.
Sadly, your dad is not the only one. The difficulty of getting around without a vehicle here in the U.S. makes lots of older folks continue to drive long past the time when they can safely do it. My dad is 92 and he says that the day he can no longer drive is the day he wants someone to shoot him. Fortunately, he does not have the risks your dad has, but I notice that his reactions are very, very slow ... and he can easily become distracted when behind the wheel. For this reason, he needs silence in the car ... no talking or listening to the radio ... and he, too, generally only does very familiar routes ... very short hops.

You are right. Most people don't care for their aged parents the way we should. It's funny, but parents can raise a houseful of kids ... and somehow they manage to do it. They find the time/money to work things out so that everyone is cared for. But then, when our aged parents become elderly and frail, often all those kids can't work out a schedule to ensure their parents are looked after in their old age.

Sad, huh?

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Brown Eyed Gurl]

Not sure how to insert an image, but Momma Lou was alive and well on the Volendam on Jan 3, 2006.


She was on our 3/25/06-04/04/06 Zaandam cruise, honking her horn and making her way all around the ship (quite a character!;))!

[dakrewser]

A staff member escorted the lady on her flight to her home where she was then released to relatives. No, the staff does not normally share this information with everyone, however, I was somewhat involved and knew this hotel manager quite well.
...
I must admit that those of you who question my veracity have made me question the wisdom of sharing with you if you are going to doubt what I say.

Some of the problem might be bacuase your initial post didn't make clear that the woman was taken to the plane and that her family was to meet her at the other end. It could be read that you were saying she was simply dumped on the dock:eek:

Anyone with any experience with dementia, though, appears to agree with what you've said. It's good you brought this forward...

[michmike]

Had a similar experience a few cruises back with a gentleman in his 80s who was from Iowa or Nebraska (somewhere out that way). He ended up missing his connection at O'Hare and didn't join the cruise until the first port of call. Couldn't really get a clear story about where he had been in the meantime.

He needed help both reading the menu and deciding what to order. He ended up at our table and we tried to look after him as best we could but it was clear that he shouldn't have been on his own. Don't know that he was quite as bad off as this woman, but another example of children who needed to do a better job of assessing parent's abilities to function on their own.

He did tell us that he thought that would be the last time he attempted such a trip on his own. We told him that was probably a good idea.

With all the boomers aging, this whole situation of kids or someone else looking after them in the later years is only going to get worse.

[Sayyadina]

I was on that cruise and I remember this woman. Yes, she did seemed a little confused about which direction to take to get to the dining room.

I had trouble finding my way to the dinning room on the Maasdam. What do you mean we can't get there from here? It's on THIS FLOOR! I have to go up a floor and then down again? :rolleyes:

Same cruise, I got on an elevator with two people (50s) and an older man (80s?). The woman turned out to be the older man's daughter, and he apparently either had some blindness or cognative problems, not sure which. The two 50-somethings reminded him he had to get off on the Main deck, asked me to make sure he got off on the right deck, then got off the elevator to go to the Lido pool. I happened to be going to the Main deck, too, and was happy to make sure he got to the floor he was going (he did almost get off on the wrong deck). But that's not the point. They didn't know me from Adam, I could have mugged him, or taken him to his room and ransacked the room. They just seemed to ditch him. It still bothers the hell out of me.

[Sayyadina]

She was on our 3/25/06-04/04/06 Zaandam cruise, honking her horn and making her way all around the ship (quite a character!;))!

Ok, I'm curious. Sorry to take a side tour on this thread, but can someone briefly tell me who Momma Lou is? :D

[Mary Ellen]

I've had another thought. Several years ago when took a cruise with my (then 80) father. One of the nurses, noticing that I was wearing 'the patch', strongly suggested that I not let Dad wear a patch. Apparently they have had some problems with elderly passengers having dementia as a side effect of the patch. They would return to normal 6 (or so) hours after removing it, but it was pretty scary for family members to see a loved one with a sudden onset of dementia. If I remember correctly, someone posted that her DH had this problem and he was only about 42, but it is more common among the elderly. So, just because a fellow passenger may seem really out of touch with reality, it may not be that the family 'dumped' them on a cruise.

Now in the case the OP mentioned, since a staff member had to accompany that person on the plane, 'the patch' most likely is wasn't the reason for that passenger's problem.

[Cruiseoften]

What an awful thing to even think about. I sailed with my mom as long as she was physically able; last cruise she was in a wheelchair. But she loved/loves cruising. She'd go again in a heartbeat. Her mind is willing but the body is weak. She'd never even be able to survive the flights to the departure point at this point. Every time I mention going on a cruise, she says "I sure would like to go on another one". She has some brain damage as a result of a bad fall last summer so I don't think she realizes how much care she requires (like 24 hour sitters).

The funny thing about our cruises is that I never was really sure what it was she enjoyed so much. . She did like having me go to the Lido and bring her breakfast back to the room and eating breakfast in her jammies on the verandah.

.

shonuf, I'd venture to say that it was the attention you your family willingly lavished on her - she knew that you cared and felt your love. You deserve several GOLD STARS!!!

I'm tearing up just thinking about those poor Mothers who are, I can only say, abandoned by family, particularly at holiday time. They should be reported and charged with cruelty and neglect. Throw the book at them! They don't deserve any kind of inheritance.
How do such people live with themselves??????

[shonuf]

shonuf, I'd venture to say that it was the attention you your family willingly lavished on her - she knew that you cared and felt your love. You deserve several GOLD STARS!!!

I'm tearing up just thinking about those poor Mothers who are, I can only say, abandoned by family, particularly at holiday time. They should be reported and charged with cruelty and neglect. Throw the book at them! They don't deserve any kind of inheritance.
How do such people live with themselves??????

Thanks for your kind words. I do love her, it just makes me so sad to see how she is now. DH and I are going over to Shreveport to see her (and my father) this weekend. We needed a getaway; DH suggested we drive to Arkansas, I said "Why?". He then suggested we drive to Galveston (5 1/2 hrs), I said "Only if we're getting on a cruise ship". We settled on Shrevport, where my parents live, as we can dine at our favorite restaurant, see my folks, go to the casinos and see them. They live in assisted living and when I visit I usually bring homemade cake or cookies for them (and enough for staff and other residents to share). When the goodies arrive, the word spreads like wildfire. I'm known as the "cookie lady" at the home. Sadly, not many other children seem to do anything like that, or so I've been told by the staff.

[KAKcruiser]

Momma Lou goes on a lot of cruises especially the Zaandam. She has made friends with all the crew and wears many of their name badges. She is a very friendly lady.

[obriendan]

Just an aside on elderly driving. My father passed away 12 years ago at the age of 93. Unlike Mom, who suffered from dimentia, Dad was frail but sharp as a tack until the day he died. He loved his 1956 VW beetle and spent many hours keeping in in good repair. Whenever we visited him in his last years, he would go out back with us and turn on the VW to show how well it ran. However, he didn’t drive it for his last 8 years, just was proud to keep it in good running condition! God bless him!

[zaandam_2]

No, I haven't. But I fondly remember Momma Lou who "lived" on the Zaandam. (I believe she passed away last year.) She was there by choice, however.

I can't imagine anyone putting a person like this on a cruise ship to fend for themselves. If that's truly what happened, it's elder abuse plain and simple.

Mamma Lou was alive and well as of Thanksgiving 2005. Sad if she has passed. She was a hoot (or should I say honk) on the Zaandam last november.

[CPeters40]

Ok, I'm curious. Sorry to take a side tour on this thread, but can someone briefly tell me who Momma Lou is? :D

If someone can explain to me how to post a picture, I'd be happy to put the picture of her I took in January, complete with all the name badges.
She was always at the entertainment every night, in the first row.
Chris

[dakrewser]

If someone can explain to me how to post a picture, I'd be happy to put the picture of her I took in January, complete with all the name badges.
She was always at the entertainment every night, in the first row.
Chris

When you're composing a message, above the box you are typing in is a line of icons. One is a yellow square with what looks like a mountain in profile (alternatively, it looks like the P&L chart of a dot com bust company!). Click it and you can enter the URL to a picture.

Or, simply copy the picture to your clipboard, then paste it into a message (ctrl-V on a PC).

[arzz]

This story is heartbreaking -- and it may truly be the fault of the family -- I am definitely not trying to defend what was done -- but in my experience dementia is not always easy to spot -- the elderly can be very clever in covering up their condition and if only observed in familiar surroundings and for limited periods of time the family may have been unaware that the situation had progressed as far as the behavior that was observed on board.

Unfamiliar surroundings can also befuddle someone who otherwise appears to be clear and level headed. We have friends who treated their Mom (who lived out of town but in frequent phone conversations appeared to be just fine) to an Alaskan cruise one summer. Once on board they were appalled to discover how really unwell she was -- extremely disoriented and she needed constant supervision. She was not even competent to take her medications correctly. They had no idea -- and again it is also possible that the unfamiliar surroundings and removal from her normal routine brought much of it on.

It is easy to place blame here and there but without all the facts, which we cannot possibly be privy to, there is no way to know how this woman happened on her cruise. She may have scheduled it herself being unaware of her own condition.

I, too, fondly remember Mama Lou from several cruises on the Zaandam. I do hope the rumors are not true, but if they are, since this thread has posted Mama Lou sitings as recently as last fall, then she went out doing what she loved. May we all be that lucky.

[caribbean girl]

Momma Lou goes on a lot of cruises especially the Zaandam. She has made friends with all the crew and wears many of their name badges. She is a very friendly lady.

I want to grow up to be like Momma Lou!!:)

[Georgia]

I agree that it is unlikely that this woman could have made her reservations and arrived at the dock on her own. However, there is the possibility that after arriving she suffered a, or a series of, TIA's (small strokes) which would incapacitate her for a period of time and then might alleviate. I have worked with nursing home residents who could be perfectly capable on one day and then have a TIA and be very confused for a day or days. My own mother had TIA's which left her confused but she would be her normal self in a few days. She would not remember the confusion. It is possible that if this was a normally exceptionally independent woman, that she might not listen to advice from children, doctors, or friends that she should not be taking a trip on her own. Having had an exceptionally independent mother, I could relate to that possibility.

Georgia

[carolyn22]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I was doing a search on Momma Lou and this thread came up. I wanted to report that she is definitely alive and doing well. I just got off the Maasdam today, and she was tooting that horn all over the place and having a grand time. I forgot how many days she had sailed with HAL, but lets just say she has YEARS with them. (I could have sworn I heard 11 years, but maybe I got it wrong.) She was Ms. Maasdam on our cruise, and they said it was the first time she had ever held that honor. You could tell that it thrilled her to no end.

I was wondering - does anyone know her story? I bet she's a real character!

[hammybee]

If you remember, one of the ladies on our roll call for the Hawaii/South Pacific cruise (sadly, her name escapes me now) was telling us at the CC gathering about a woman who was seated at her dining table on another cruise. The woman talked stuff that made absolutely no sense. Obviously, she was a bit senile and she was traveling alone as well. Her family had dumped her on the cruise (which I believe was a holiday sailing). Guess they didn't want to be troubled by her over the holidays.

Frankly, when I hear about this stuff, I blame the folks at embarkation in the terminal. When they see someone like that ... clearly not of a right mind and attempting to board the ship without someone traveling along to look after them ... they should not allow them to embark. Rather, they should call someone from Security, and let Security handle getting in touch with their family to come and pick them up. HAL (nor any other cruise line for that matter) is in the business of providing nursing care.

It is not fair to expect the staff/crew of the ship to look after these folks for the length of the cruise ... which is exactly what they end up doing when someone "incompetent" sails alone. The crew has enough work to do ... they don't really have the time to be playing nursemaid too. That's the job of the families of these folks.

The really sad thing is that many of these older folks have substantial resources which the children will inherit when they are gone. Good. The children are going to come into a windfall some day. Then let them take care of their folks while they are still alive. It's only fair.

Blue skies ...

--rita
Hey look who is back in town. Welcome home.

[hammybee]

Same cruise, I got on an elevator with two people (50s) and an older man (80s?). The woman turned out to be the older man's daughter, and he apparently either had some blindness or cognative problems, not sure which. The two 50-somethings reminded him he had to get off on the Main deck, asked me to make sure he got off on the right deck, then got off the elevator to go to the Lido pool. I happened to be going to the Main deck, too, and was happy to make sure he got to the floor he was going (he did almost get off on the wrong deck). But that's not the point. They didn't know me from Adam, I could have mugged him, or taken him to his room and ransacked the room. They just seemed to ditch him. It still bothers the hell out of me.

It does not sound too different with the way some parents seem to ditch their kids while on a cruise.

[middle-aged mom]

Hey look who is back in town. Welcome home.

Hammy dear, this is a resurrected thread from last spring. I think Kyros is still cruising on Amsterdam?

Karin

[AAAAmerican]

Thats does seem so similar to well animal abuse.

When the people go on Vacation they ( I have seen this and rescued them too) leave there pets in the Middle of an Interstate Highway...

People do leave pets in there vacation houe=ses as well..

Does anyone remember Animal Kingdom? They closed that Safari Park and left the animals in there cages to dend for themselves...

I would believe these Characterless People ((IMHO))) would do and do... the same for some elderly people too..


I just shake my head...and pray

[I Luv Crusin]

Wow, this thread really hits home! My Mom had dementia/Alzheimers. She so much wanted to go on an Alaskan cruise and my older sister offered to go with her. So my Mom paid for her and my niece to go with her. At that time I was caring for Mom, trying to get her diagnosed. I warned my sister that Mom was not doing well but she wouldn't listen. They flew to Alaska and started their tour with the land portion. Mom would not share a room with my sister. 3 days later they got on the ship and within 24 hours Mom had locked herself in the cabin. There was some medical intervention and after 24 hours in the infirmary they were off-loaded at the next port. Unfortunately they were "socked-in" and couldn't fly out for at least a day. They flew over the ship on the way to the airport. A ten day trip was over in 5! To hear my Mom tell it, she had a GREAT time. My sister's take, it was a trip from H***.

I really wish I had kept notes of experiences and trials we went through. Some things that happened were so sad and others so funny.

I really encourage all of us to figure out how we want to be cared for when we are infirm and let our loved ones know! Want does confuse me is how to protect myself and my family when/if I get dementia. So many with dementia can compensate and appear "normal" but aren't. My Mom wrote another sister out of her will because she thought that sister was trying to steal items from her. Mom was giving items away and then forgetting that she did!

[jessemon]

On our thirty day Panama/Amazon cruise last fall there was a woman in her eighties who had been put on the ship by her children. She wasn't competant at all and would stand in her cabin doorway grabbing passers by and asking them when her dinner was. At other times she would stand in her doorway in the evening with a lovely beaded top on and nothing else. When we reached the first port she was escorted off the ship and her relatives were advised to come and get her.

This is not the first person we've seen sailing who really wasn't competant to be travelling alone; just the most disturbing.

Have any of you noticed this sad trend to use a cruise ship as a de facto nursing home??
Please...
If this were true then you should have contacted authorities at the point of destinatoin and had the children arrested for doing this.
Where did you hear that the ship put her off at port and contacted the kids?
Why did you not go to the hotel manager or security and let them know what was going on?
If this is really true...contact a news source near you...or "Geraldo" and let him make a "sensational "story out of this...:eek: