Dress code enforcement

[dakrewser]

Many of the dress code threads feature people on all sides of the enforcement issue: from "I wish they'd enforce the dress code" to "I'd follow it if it were enforced" to "as long as they don't enforce it I'll do what I want."

Some report seing people turned away at the door of the dining room, others see people in shorts and t-shirts on formal nights.

But as many law enforcement people will tell you, many laws are simply not enforced unless people complain. For example, many city streets have legal speed limits of 25 or 30 MPH. Many drivers routinely can be clocked at 35-50 MPH. No one gets stopped until a number of people complain about the excessive speed.

It's quite likely that HAL (and other lines) aren't going to attempt to refuse people admittance to the DR if no one is complaining.

So the questions are:

Have you ever complained to the maitre d' about someone's dress in the DR?

In order to preserve traditional dining, would you now begin to do so?

[Krazy Kruizers]

On several occasions we have mentioned to our area captains and the maitre'd about the dress of someone who was really out of line - the people who came into the dining room dressed in shorts on a formal evening - just one incident.

And we have also written notes on our comment cards although I truely believe no one ever reads them.

[peaches from georgia]

So the questions are:

Have you ever complained to the maitre d' about someone's dress in the DR?

In order to preserve traditional dining, would you now begin to do so?

NO

YES

[RuthC]

I've never made a direct complaint, but now believe it would be a good idea.

I have often made mention on the comment card that I would like to see a dressier atmosphere. Apparently, that isn't doing the trick.
Since the argument of the Maitre d's appears to be that if they do something to enforce the code then there will just be complaints filed, then I think it behooves those of us who want the code enforced to see that complaints are filed when it is not followed.

[Copper10-8]

NO

NO

NANETTE

[lougee1043]

i recently posted a response from celebrity captains regarding dress codes-- the bottom line is that the captains wont enforce the dress code without knowing if the maitre d is going to back them up -- becasue they are the ones getting into trouble --- no maitre d ok then no enforcement

[RevNeal]

I have never complained about any specific person at any specific time. However, I have stated in letters to Seattle that I would like to see the dress code enforced (at least for formal nights). I have also made similar comments on the comment cards at the end of cruises where I have noticed some particularly glaring violations of the dress code (a woman dressed in a jogging suit on formal night). AND, in several conversations with Hotel Managers, I have mentioned that I would prefer to see the dress code enforced rather than "anything goes." In general, the reply back that I have received has been that HAL doesn't allow "anything goes" but that, at the same time, their staff do not have time to play "clothing cops." Essentially, it would appear that HAL expects its passengers to be responsible citizens who respect the wises of their hosts. O, for such a perfect world!

As for the paltry few incidents in which I have either witnessed or overheard as the dress code was actually being enforced, the enforcement has been exceedingly polite but firm, and it has always been relative to someone whose clothing was WAY out of line with the code for the evening (shorts and t-shirt on informal night, no jacket and tie on formal night ... that kind of thing).

As for your question: would I be willing to complain? I suppose I would ... but, then, that would depend upon how egregious a violation it was. Frankly, I'm usually too focused upon what I'm doing and what's going on in my immediate vicinity to care about someone not dressed according to the code seated 10 tables away. If odor were part of the problem (i.e., soiled, worn out clothing stinking up the immediate area), or if someone had made it into the dining room in jam-shorts and a tank-top and was seated in my immediate line-of-sight, I might be quick to lodge an immediate complaint. However, if it's just the lack of a tie or the wearing of jeans under dress shirt, tie, and sport jacket, then no ... I probably wouldn't lodge an immediate complaint. As much as I would like to see the code enforced, I just don't see it as my job to try and enforce it.

[bepsf]

No, I never have - and Yes, I think I will make comment of it in the future.

As point of comparison - I was astounded at the dress aboard Celebrity.

Nearly EVERYONE met or exceeded the dress code - I'd guess that easily 98% of the men met the code (non-code meant navy blazer w/ tie and khakis as opposed to a dark suit - there was nothing lesser than that in sight anywhere in the public rooms that night) and approx 85% wore tuxes. Most ladies were in floor length gowns, many with shawls, furs, etc. (The AC in the dining room was also a cooler than the previous night - probably to accomodate Formalwear.)

Of course, in your document booklet there's a short checklist of things not to forget to pack - among them being Medicines, Extra Eyeglasses, Passports and Formalwear!

[RevNeal]

i recently posted a response from celebrity captains regarding dress codes-- the bottom line is that the captains wont enforce the dress code without knowing if the maitre d is going to back them up -- becasue they are the ones getting into trouble --- no maitre d ok then no enforcement

On the Zaandam in 2004, on the first formal night, a man came dressed in slacks and a button-down sports shirt -- no jacket, no tie. He would have been fine on a casual night, but not on formal night. The Maitre’ d came over while their drink orders were being taken, knelt down next to the guy, and I could hear him say in a quiet yet respectful tone, “Sir, tonight is formal night.”

“Yes?” the man replied; his tone contained more than just a hint of daring.

“I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask you to return to your cabin and retrieve a jacket and tie.”

“But the dress code says that’s just a suggestion.”

“No, sir. What’s suggested is a tuxedo; what is required is a jacket and tie.”

“Required?”

“Correct, sir. That is what is printed in your Daily Program.”

“What if I refuse?”

“Then, sir, you will not be served.”

“You’re kidding me.”

“No, sir, I'm not kidding you.” The Matre’ D then stood up straight and walked away, apparently stopping to inform the area supervisor of the situation.

After a few minutes, which he spent discussing the situation with his wife and his companions in increasingly heated tones, the fellow got up and left. Less than 10 minutes later he showed up in a sports jacket, white shirt, and tie. Nothing else was said, either by the Matre’ D or by his table companions, and on the subsequent 3 formal nights he was attired properly. The same can't be said for the informal nights -- he pushed the envelope there, too, and got called on it the second informal night -- but that's another story.

***

So, yes ... it does sometimes happen. If only it would happen more frequently.

[Bramcruiser]

I probably wouldn't lodge an immediate complaint. As much as I would like to see the code enforced, I just don't see it as my job to try and enforce it.

I never complained because I never seen anyone dressed sooooooo inappropriately on my cruises to date on formal night - even on Carnival. First, I have far too much to worry about than ties and jackets on other people that could ruin a cruise. Rogue waves, fires, and icebergs are probably approriate worry factors. I do like to have the dress codes enforced but I am much like our revneal in that its not my job to be enforcer and why get into a rather silly battle over people's taste in clothing.

I believe there is way too much discussion on the dress codes on all the boards over a few people here and there that deliberately fly in the face of the dress code for formal nights. I do believe most try hard to stay within the rules and if they don't attend the dining room and other formal functions why bother if you see someone in jeans wondering in the hallways. For me to complain I guess that person would have to smell and be obviously grungy to the point you just can't eat. If they are clean and presentable and have made some attempt at looking nice then I would accept them at my table without saying a word about a missing tie or jacket or wrong colour socks.:) Even if I was in a tuxedo!

Just my little thoughts. I know not everyone will agree with me.

[RedmondCruiser]

All rules have exceptions. I like to see the dress code enforced as much as anyone but I have seen some poor people arrive on the ship and the airline has lost their luggage. I remember one poor lady in a jogging suit who finally got her luggage on the second to the last day of the cruise. Granted the Lido is set up for casual dining but the menu in the Lido is not comparable to the main dinning room. Its the people who don't care that bothers me.

[bepsf]

All rules have exceptions. I like to see the dress code enforced as much as anyone but I have seen some poor people arrive on the ship and the airline has lost their luggage. I remember one poor lady in a jogging suit who finally got her luggage on the second to the last day of the cruise. Granted the Lido is set up for casual dining but the menu in the Lido is not comparable to the main dinning room. Its the people who don't care that bothers me.

Oh, I absolutely agree that there are times when one makes exceptions, like the lady w/ the lost luggage or the pensioners from Northern England who were given a cruise by their children as a gift and wore their Sunday best (Mum in a simple dress and Dad in a tie) but Mum was in tears when she realized that her "finest" wasn't up to snuf.

It's cases like that where we should be charitable and take them under our wings and reassure them that they're OK and welcome (and perhaps treat them to be outfitted in a gown from the giftshop or a tux rental for next formal night - money better spent than another seaweed-scalp massage, I should think ;) )

[RevNeal]

Brian,
that's a CAPITAL remark and idea there.
EXCELLENT.

[sail7seas]

No, I haven't complained.

And, No....I won't complain.

[lougee1043]

just remembered --when talking to the d/r capt on celebrity he said that he would refuse admittance to anyone not complying to dress code if he was at the door when the person was entering the d/r and that his business took he away from the door and that he would not approach anyone who was already seated if they got by him because he wasnt at the door when the person entered

[Sueseb]

On two occassions my husband has complained about baseball caps being worn in the dining room. On the first occassion the offender was spoken to but refused to comply with the request to remove it, and that was the end of that. On the second occassion he was told that it was the last night so he should just over look it. Bad manners rule!

[Copper10-8]

On two occassions my husband has complained about baseball caps being worn in the dining room. On the first occassion the offender was spoken to but refused to comply with the request to remove it, and that was the end of that. On the second occassion he was told that it was the last night so he should just over look it. Bad manners rule!

Those are probably the same fine gents that refuse to take off their hats/covers when the national anthem is played at i.e. a sporting event and/or when entering a church. Willing to bet you they never were in the service either!

[NoNoNanette]

NO

NO

NANETTE

Dunno where that came from, John. I've always abided by the suggested "dress code". I just don't care if others do.

TO EACH HIS OWN. :D

[Copper10-8]

Dunno where that came from, John. I've always abided by the suggested "dress code". I just don't care if others do.

TO EACH HIS OWN. :D

I don't either Nanette, your name just came to mind after those two no's!

Those two no's still stand though, as far as I'm concerned. Never have and more than likely never will. Too busy looking at the menu and enjoying a conversation with our new tablemates

[NoNoNanette]

I don't either Nanette, your name just came to mind after those two no's!

Those two no's still stand though, as far as I'm concerned. Never have and more than likely never will. Too busy looking at the menu and enjoying a conversation with our new tablemates

I'll be super-honest with you, John..... I'm relieved, as have always enjoyed reading your posts/interacting with you. :o

[Copper10-8]

I'll be super-honest with you, John..... I'm relieved, as have always enjoyed reading your posts/interacting with you. :o

Cool beans!;)

[bepsf]

Those are probably the same fine gents that refuse to take off their hats/covers when the national anthem is played at i.e. a sporting event and/or when entering a church. Willing to bet you they never were in the service either!

OMG - Doesn't that drive you F$*%ing CRAZY!

Last time I was at a ballgame here in SF, a Dad w/ his gaggle in the row ahead of us talked and loudly rearranged themselves and various sodas/treats, etc. during the anthem. Much to my friends horror, I gave him a stern lecture on etiquette after the anthem. (Even if this is not your country, you stand quietly with your hats off and face in the direction of the flag, being respectful of the customs of the country you are in and those around you - your children will never become proper citizens unless you do your job and teach them what they need to know.)

He didn't know what to say, but he made sure his kids behaved throughout the game.

[ryansmemom]

I have never complained about anyone violating the dress code. To be perfectly honest, I have never seen anyone onboard a HAL ship wearing anything that I felt so egregiously violated the dress code that it bothered me to a point that I would feel it was necessary to compain about.

Yes, I have seen people whose interpretation of the dress code is very different than mine. However, I am not the fashion police. When I speak of my preferences I am speaking of a perfect word and this is not a perfect world. I have no problem with someone enjoying formal night who has dressed with at least the spirit of the occasion. For some people, church best is as best and festive as it gets. This is party dress up. What is wrong with that? Times are changing. At some point, we may find that denim will be acceptable too.

For example: George V and Queen Mary of England were scandalized that women were actually showing their ankles. They would not allow women to appear in their presence if their skirts were so horrifically short that their ankles showed. Formal, Informal, Casual no matter when, no ankles. Just imagine what their majesties would have to say about today's fashions. Things change.

Personally, I do believe that behavior is related to the way we are dressed. Sloppy dress is related to sloppy behavior. People who take pride and care in their dress also take pride and care in all aspects of themselves and have greater respect for themselves and others.

I do have a problem with poorly groomed, sloppy, dirty people; regardless of the appropriatness of their mode of dress. I have a problem with rude, arrogant people regardless of the appropriatness of their dress. I think people should have the appropriate parts of their bodies covered or uncovered in a dining room and that should be enforced.

As far as complaining in the future. I may if I felt the situation warrented a complaint. Chimera and I are in the habit of requesting a meeting with the Hotel Manager on our cruises. We invite him up to our suite mid-cruise and we have always had a nice chat about our experience on his ship. We do this mid-cruise because at that point we have crew members we want to commend and we want to be sure the boss knows about them. If we have a complaint, that is when we let him know about it. That gives him the opportunity to rectify the problem. Of course, the times we have had complaints, we have gone through the chain of command and they only reach the Hotel Manager's ears if our problems have not been solved. The meeting is really to commend the crew members. Anyway, we would use this time to express any concerns we had regarding the dress code or anything else.

In my experience, HAL is very receptive to the concerns of their guests. I have seen changes made as a result of the concerns I have expressed. I think it depends on the way the concerns are expressed. I also beleive that Cruise Critic does carry weight with the company.

Linda

[karen2cruz]

I appreciate your kind, polite comments and I need to ask a few questions of you experts here, as this is our first HAL cruise.

1. My son, who will wear a tuxedo on formal nights, wants to know if polo shirts are OK for casual nights.

2. Is this correct? ----the first and last night are usually casual, with two formal nights, and thus leaving 3 informal nights (jacket-yes, tie optional).

3. Is it traditionally or strongly suggested staying in above said clothing through the remainder of the evening? On the other 4 cruiselines we have been on, this has been optionally followed.

We are conformists by nature :D and do not want to offend the long time HAL cruisers and will go by what is suggested here. This is one reason my wonderful son is coming, but my dear husband is not coming, as he hates wearing suits or tuxes for more than a few hours.:rolleyes:

Thanks

Karen

[RustaRoo]

No, I have not complained but I've been sorely tempted!

Picture this, young 20-something black male, white ball cap, baggy black shirt, incredible baggy/saggy blue denim jeans with huge chain dangling from belt (conected to who knows what!) at a table of 6 persons, all of whom were formally dressed on the first formal night. The woman I supposed to be his mother looked absolutely stunning in a fabulously beaded black evening dress! He was allowed to remain. And this wasn't a 'one off', as he showed up for the second formal night just as inappropriately attired.

I honestly don't believe 'complaining' is going to solve the situation, so it's unlikely I'll start becoming a member of the vocal fashion police. Leading by example is still pretty effective in my books.

[RevNeal]

Karen,

Welcome! I'll try to answer your questions:

1. My son, who will wear a tuxedo on formal nights, wants to know if polo shirts are OK for casual nights.

Slacks and polo shirts are perfectly fine for the casual nights. That's pretty much what I wear.

2. Is this correct? ----the first and last night are usually casual, with two formal nights, and thus leaving 3 informal nights (jacket-yes, tie optional).

The first and last nights are casual nights, yes. On a 7 day cruise you will have 2 formal nights, usually 1 informal night, and 5 casual nights.

3. Is it traditionally or strongly suggested staying in above said clothing through the remainder of the evening? On the other 4 cruiselines we have been on, this has been optionally followed.

Allow me to put it this way ... the Dress code states the following: "In order to complement your fellow guests, Holland America asks that you observe the suggested dress code throughout the entire evening." Now, is the REQUIRED? Some people ignore it. But, it's what the Line requests.

[julia]

No
and
No

One of the things that I've discovered on a few of our cruises are "newbies" who failed to do their homework when it comes to packing (being a member of Cruise Critic, it's hard to fathom those who take packing so nonchalantly!) :) Anyway, on an RCI cruise, we had a lovely table of 10 and one couple was quite bummed because they did not realize, or pack for, the elegant dining room (our's was a pretty dressy table each night). Since she & I hit it off great, I ended up loaning her a few dressy pieces to wear to the dining room during the week, and she was sooo appreciative! Her hubby bought a tie and dark shirt while on board, and they were good to go. She returned my things (cleaned & pressed) with a sweet note at the end of the cruise.

Sooo... sometimes, the dress code violators are simply unaware of what constitutes dining room attire (even though it's clearly spelled out in the documents!)

[karen2cruz]

Thanks Revneal - It helps to know I need to pack more polo shirts for him than dress shirts.

Now to just figure out what I need to wear. Guess it's time to learn how to mix and match well, or maybe I have to go shopping-darn:D

Karen

[Copper10-8]

OMG - Doesn't that drive you F$*%ing CRAZY!

Last time I was at a ballgame here in SF, a Dad w/ his gaggle in the row ahead of us talked and loudly rearranged themselves and various sodas/treats, etc. during the anthem. Much to my friends horror, I gave him a stern lecture on etiquette after the anthem. (Even if this is not your country, you stand quietly with your hats off and face in the direction of the flag, being respectful of the customs of the country you are in and those around you - your children will never become proper citizens unless you do your job and teach them what they need to know.)

He didn't know what to say, but he made sure his kids behaved throughout the game.

Good job, Brian! Proud of you! USAF training!

[cruisequeen10]

In fine restaurants on land, some require that men wear a suit and tie. They enforce the rules then. Why can't they on the cruise ship. If you cannot wear shorts, tshirts, jeans etc into the dining room then they must enforce it. They are just letting passsengers get away with murder, then they don't know how to control the situation. Nip it in the bud now, rather than having unhappy guests.

[Boatdrill]

On several occasions we have mentioned to our area captains and the maitre'd about the dress of someone who was really out of line - the people who came into the dining room dressed in shorts on a formal evening - just one incident.

And we have also written notes on our comment cards although I truely believe no one ever reads them.


Oh yes, they are read.

If you have a complaint with dress code enforcement or any other issue, speak to the Hotel Director. NOT when you pass him in the hallway, but make an appointment to talk with him, and be sure you keep it.

[RevNeal]

Thanks Revneal - It helps to know I need to pack more polo shirts for him than dress shirts.

Now to just figure out what I need to wear. Guess it's time to learn how to mix and match well, or maybe I have to go shopping-darn:D

Karen ... you know, he can wear a polo shirt under a sport jacket with a pair of slacks. :) That way, all you need is a tuxedo shirt to go with the tuxedo.

As for having to go shopping ... yes, I'm certain that's such a disappointment! It is for me, every time I have to get ready for a cruise. The agony! ;)

[herb]

I would never even think of going up to the Maitre D' and complain about what someone else was wearing. That's not my job, and that's not why I went on vacation. I just want to relax and enjoy peace and quiet... not second guess what people are wearing to dinner.

P.S. Many of you have stated that one needs to voice their strong opinion in favor of stricter enforcement of dress codes via letters to Seattle or comments on comment cards.

Has anyone ever thought that there might actually be quite a large amount of letters being sent to Seattle or comments made on comment cards AGAINST formal nights?

[diboja]

I would never even think of going up to the Maitre D' and complain about what someone else was wearing. That's not my job, and that's not why I went on vacation. I just want to relax and enjoy peace and quiet... not second guess what people are wearing to dinner.

Has anyone ever thought that there might actually be quite a large amount of letters being sent to Seattle or comments made on comment cards AGAINST formal nights?

Well said Herb!
So much rhetoric is on these boards about how people should or should not dress - it certainly becomes a redundant topic.

We follow the rules - to a point. After having dinner in the main dining room we have gone back to our room to change to be more comfortable at the evening Show. If having dinner in the Lido on a "formal"night and are dressed casual I'll be darned if we are going back to our room to change into formal wear so that we can take in the Show.....

Never judge a book by its cover.....I have seen some of the most arrogant, ignorant people(the minority to be sure) dressed to the nine's every night and have been with people who have never cruised before, worn a sports jacket with tie and the lady in a pantsuit as this is the one and only cruise that they have taken in their lives - not they they didn't know better but thats all they could afford for this special once in a life-time occasion......these people were delightful to be with compared to the "hoity-toity'" walking clothing racks.....

I am there to enjoy my vacation and not to be judgemental - I wish people could be more understanding of others that may be on their one and only cruise and may not travel in the realm of those cruisers who can afford to take their 10 or twenty cruises. I repeat "never judge a book by its cover"!!

[RuthC]

Has anyone ever thought that there might actually be quite a large amount of letters being sent to Seattle or comments made on comment cards AGAINST formal nights?
Yes, I am begining to come to that realization. And that is why those of us who wish to see HAL remain the line we chose for the reasons we chose it must not stay silent.
Our silence could be seen as tacit approval---or worse, seen as agreement with those who do petition for relaxed standards.

[ryansmemom]

Can someone please help me understand why some people are so very judgementalregarding people who dress up formally for formal night? Some how the people who are dressed down are given the benifit of the doubt,which is fine with me. They may be hard working people who have struggled and sved for this once in a lifetime experience. However, the well dressed people are judged as being "hoity-toity walking cloths racks" or the ever dredded "snobs" who are always so judgemental.

Judgemental works both ways. What is wrong with enjoying and having the means to dress well, being well groomed and enjoying these things? Since my husband and I worked for our money and our lifestyle and continue to do so, I do not think we should have to apologize, be judged or be chastistized for enjoying it. People who wear nice clothes or enjoy formal evenings are just as worthy of respect as those who don't.

Linda

[dakrewser]

I am there to enjoy my vacation and not to be judgemental - I wish people could be more understanding of others that may be on their one and only cruise and may not travel in the realm of those cruisers who can afford to take their 10 or twenty cruises. I repeat "never judge a book by its cover"!!

So if I only go to St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City 'once in my life', then it's OK to wear shorts and a tank-top???

And, in fact, most people judge books by their covers - that's why publishers spend so much money on the dust jackets, art & cover copy!

[herb]

People who wear nice clothes or enjoy formal evenings are just as worthy of respect as those who don't.

Linda

I agree with you 100%. EVERYONE should be worthy of respect.

[mickeyfitz]

Please, not the "judgmental" adjective again. There is nothing judgmental about preferring that there be formal nights and that at least the minimum HAL published standards be enforced. I am not going to "judge" the motivation or character of the violator, I just want HAL to enforce those minimum, and I do mean minimum, standards so that formal night does in fact remain formal night and not just an evening during which some people in the dining room choose to dress up and others don't, because then the special atmosphere is gone and the whole idea might as well be abandoned.

[diboja]

People who wear nice clothes or enjoy formal evenings are just as worthy of respect as those who don't.

Linda

You betcha!!! I agree with you!
My wife and I always follow the dress code - while Dining!

It just seems that some who do follow the rules to a "T" are usually the most judgmental and pass along their criteria of dress in a most obssessive way.

Life is just too short to get twisted out of shape about how someone dresses.......Personally, I have much more important things to worry about or to enjoy in life.

[HeatherInFlorida]

No, I never have and ....

No, I probably never will.

To be honest (when am I not;) ?), I really take no notice of people who don't bother to dress appropriately. So they must not exist in the vast numbers that some people say or I think I would begin to notice.

[herb]

So if I only go to St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City 'once in my life', then it's OK to wear shorts and a tank-top???

Let's not get silly! I don't think anyone so far on any of these "formal night proper attire" threads equated shorts and a tank-top as proper attire for formal night, and that is what the original thread was about.

[diboja]

So if I only go to St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City 'once in my life', then it's OK to wear shorts and a tank-top???


I have a hard time equating St. Peter's to a Holiday Cruise!

[lougee1043]

[quote=diboja]
We follow the rules - to a point. After having dinner in the main dining room we have gone back to our room to change to be more comfortable at the evening Show. If having dinner in the Lido on a "formal"night and are dressed casual I'll be darned if we are going back to our room to change into formal wear so that we can take in the Show.....quote]

since when are rules ( follow the announced dress code for the entire evening) open for individual interpetation --- to me a rule is a rule--
you can risk speeding above the posted speed limit but you hold yourself open to a ticket ---- a jacket rule in a restaurant is not open to interpetation- no jacket no meal------ you dont put your spin on your works dress code --- a suit is a suit --- you dont walk in wearing jeans or shorts --------------------so why is it so difficult to follow the rules on a hal ship ------ maybe your ta did you a disservice by putting you on a hal ship when you might be more comfortable on a more casual cruise lline

[NoNoNanette]

Well said Herb!
So much rhetoric is on these boards about how people should or should not dress - it certainly becomes a redundant topic.

We follow the rules - to a point. After having dinner in the main dining room we have gone back to our room to change to be more comfortable at the evening Show. If having dinner in the Lido on a "formal"night and are dressed casual I'll be darned if we are going back to our room to change into formal wear so that we can take in the Show.....

Never judge a book by its cover.....I have seen some of the most arrogant, ignorant people(the minority to be sure) dressed to the nine's every night and have been with people who have never cruised before, worn a sports jacket with tie and the lady in a pantsuit as this is the one and only cruise that they have taken in their lives - not they they didn't know better but thats all they could afford for this special once in a life-time occasion......these people were delightful to be with compared to the "hoity-toity'" walking clothing racks.....

I am there to enjoy my vacation and not to be judgemental - I wish people could be more understanding of others that may be on their one and only cruise and may not travel in the realm of those cruisers who can afford to take their 10 or twenty cruises. I repeat "never judge a book by its cover"!!

EXCELLENT POST!:)

We will also change after dinner. Honestly, I couldn't care any less about what others will be wearing (or for that matter, thinking)... in or out of the dining room.;)

[herb]

If having dinner in the Lido on a "formal"night and are dressed casual I'll be darned if we are going back to our room to change into formal wear so that we can take in the Show.....

A serious question:

Does Holland America, who has given passengers the choice to not dress "formally" and eat in the Lido Buffet expect passengers to then go back to their cabins and change to formal wear in order to go to a show? Why give them the option to dine informally yet make them wear a tux or evening gown to watch a lip synch Broadway revue?

[tech]

Herb,

Bravissimo !

[HeatherInFlorida]

A serious question:

Does Holland America, who has given passengers the choice to not dress "formally" and eat in the Lido Buffet expect passengers to then go back to their cabins and change to formal wear in order to go to a show? Why give them the option to dine informally yet make them wear a tux or evening gown to watch a lip synch Broadway revue?

A serious answer:

No. They do not. But they do ask that if you are not going to dress in the "suggested" attire of the evening that you not visit the public areas of the ship.

The "suggestion" would be, then, that you not attend the show. Since from your post I gather you have no interest in seeing the show anyway, your question becomes moot.

Without naming names, it seems to me that there are some people who simply could care less about just about anything. And if that's the case, why ask anything here or read any threads when you pretty much plan to do as you wish anyway?

The mind boggles:) . I think perhaps I've just lived to darned long.

[Copper10-8]

Two more cents: On formal night on HAL and AFTER dinner, you will see many folks dressed up in their formals enjoying themselves in places like the Explorer's Lounge, the Ocean Bar and the Crow's Nest. The atmosphere and ambiance on a formal night that many here enjoy and speak of is there for those folks to partake in. Yes, you will see other pax (in my experience, not the majority by far) who have either changed into something more casual after dinner or never went formal and had dinner elsewhere, in venues like the casino, the show lounge(s), the shops, the internet center, etc. who are also enjoying themselves. It has been discussed at length: You will no longer get a 100% compliance to the "suggested" formal dress code and some people who do comply with it for dinner, will change afterwards! Accept it! There is room on a HAL ship for both to coexist without bad-mouthing and/or looking down at each other! Just enjoy yourself, your company and your cruise!

[herb]

A serious answer:

No. They do not. But they do ask that if you are not going to dress in the "suggested" attire of the evening that you not visit the public areas of the ship.

The "suggestion" would be, then, that you not attend the show. Since from your post I gather you have no interest in seeing the show anyway, your question becomes moot.





Heather, you're absolutely right, those Broadway revues were fun when we first started cruising, but we still do enjoy the comedy shows, going to the casino, and having a drink or two in the lounge. :)
I would also like to state that my wife and I do dress formally on formal night ie. tux and evening gown.
P.S. I don't own jeans, and I hate wearing hats, therefore you'd never ever see me in a baseball hat or wearing any type of jeans in the dining room :D

I suppose I should rephrase my question: why does HAL even give the option to eat informally on Formal night if, after dinner, HAL is so picky about what you wear to participate in anything more than taking a stroll on a wood teak deck or watching tv in your cabin?

Maybe HAL needs to rephrase their ~what to wear~ guide in the "Know Before You Go" to: Yes, you can dress informally on Formal night and eat in the buffet, but we ask that you then, upon completion of your meal please refrain from partaking in any evening activities onboard the ship other than walking outside on the promenade or remaining in your cabin or on your private balcony. Thank you for sailing with Holland America". ;)

[NoNoNanette]

John-

You need to replace your pic with the one that's on your site.;)

WOW. :)

[herb]

Two more cents: On formal night on HAL and AFTER dinner, you will see many folks dressed up in their formals enjoying themselves in places like the Explorer's Lounge, the Ocean Bar and the Crow's Nest. The atmosphere and ambiance on a formal night that many here enjoy and speak of is there for those folks to partake in. Yes, you will see other pax (in my experience, not the majority by far) who have either changed into something more casual after dinner or never went formal and had dinner elsewhere, in venues like the casino, the show lounge(s), the shops, the internet center, etc. who are also enjoying themselves. It has been discussed at length: You will no longer get a 100% compliance to the "suggested" formal dress code and some people who do comply with it for dinner, will change afterwards! Accept it! There is room on a HAL ship for both to coexist without bad-mouthing and/or looking down at each other! Just enjoy yourself, your company and your cruise!

WHAT A GREAT POST!!!! LOVE IT!!!! You should save this and whenever the topic comes up just cut and paste.

[HeatherInFlorida]

.............. ....................
Maybe HAL needs to rephrase their ~what to wear~ guide in the "Know Before You Go" to: Yes, you can dress informally on Formal night and eat in the buffet, but we ask that you then, upon completion of your meal please refrain from partaking in any evening activities onboard the ship other than walking outside on the promenade or remaining in your cabin or on your private balcony. Thank you for sailing with Holland America". ;)

Point taken, Herb:) . I guess it comes back to perception. I read their current phrasing to say pretty much what you say above ... just not in those exact words.

In the end, I really don't disagree. As I said earlier, it really doesn't bother me at all because I've not noticed anyone not dressing as requested. Truthfully, it's only here on CC that I even think about it. I really don't think these "violations;) " are as rampant as you might think if only reading this board.

[RevNeal]

Has anyone ever thought that there might actually be quite a large amount of letters being sent to Seattle or comments made on comment cards AGAINST formal nights?

Herb,

Oh, certainly. I'm not sure how large the number is, but I DO know that there is a certain percentage of people who cruise on HAL who repeatedly complain about the dress code, the dining time, etc. etc. etc.. We see it here on this board, and some of them (or others, too, I would imagine) have made their opinions known. The principle is simple: the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If those who want a change are the only ones who are writing and/or complaining, then HAL may well get the impression that EVERYONE wants things changed. Hence, it behooves those of us who DON'T want change to make sure that the Line realizes that there are those of us out here who like the dress code, the dining times, etc., the way they are. If we don't speak up, we only have ourselves to blame if the Line thinks that we agree with the those who want things changed.

[peaches from georgia]

Herb,

Oh, certainly. I'm not sure how large the number is, but I DO know that there is a certain percentage of people who cruise on HAL who repeatedly complain about the dress code, the dining time, etc. etc. etc..
And some of the most vocal complainers have never even sailed on HAL. ;)

[RevNeal]

We follow the rules - to a point. After having dinner in the main dining room we have gone back to our room to change to be more comfortable at the evening Show. If having dinner in the Lido on a "formal"night and are dressed casual I'll be darned if we are going back to our room to change into formal wear so that we can take in the Show.....

diboja, welcome to the board!

I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to change into formal clothing to attend a show after having eaten casual in the Lido. If I were to elect to eat in the Lido on formal night, I wouldn't want do that either. And, I understand that some do like to "dress-down" after dinner for activities aboard ship. I have no idea how many people this amounts to, and I don't understand why they like doing this, but I've noticed it from time to time. My only request of those who do this sort of thing is to not be surprised that most of your fellow passengers are going to stay in their formal clothing for the evening's festivities. Remember ... you are the one who is bucking the Line's dress code, so if you start to feel uncomfortable because you are standing out like a sore thumb, please don't complain about it.

In other words ... those of you who rightly saluted Copper's remarks should remember that the reverse is also true. Take it from someone who was once told that he was a "stuffed shirt" for remaining dressed in his tuxedo after the show let out: it goes both ways. (And NOW you know why I am a bit sensitive on this subject).

Never judge a book by its cover.

When it comes to people that is the God-honest truth ... and very well said on your part. It is particularly true when judging people by the coverings they're wearing ... like considering those who are dressed formally to be stuffed shirt "hoity-toity walking clothing racks." Not that such is what you were doing ... and not that the same cannot be said in reverse.

[tech]

John-

You need to replace your pic with the one that's on your site.;)

I am borrowing Nanette's post ...she sure is right on this one.

Eye Candy for us ladies ! :D

[NoNoNanette]

John-

You need to replace your pic with the one that's on your site.;)

I am borrowing Nanette's post ...she sure is right on this one.

Eye Candy for us ladies ! :D

Is he a "hunk", or what, Tech?:eek:

(Nice to meet you, kiddo.... have been enjoying your posts!)

[RevNeal]

Let's not get silly! I don't think anyone so far on any of these "formal night proper attire" threads equated shorts and a tank-top as proper attire for formal night, and that is what the original thread was about.

Herb, at the risk of being thought a bit silly here, let me ask a question. Why should we NOT expect that some are going to want to wear shorts and tank tops on formal night? While exceedingly RARE, I have seen people in such garb "out and about" in the evening, in public spaces. Yes, in lounges and even seated next to me in the casino on formal night. Yes, that's right. Me ... in a Tuxedo (dressed according to code) ... and the guy seated next to me at the blackjack table is in shorts and t-shirt. I will admit that this extreme hasn't happened often, but it has happened to me once.

And, pray tell, why not? After all, we've been told up one side and down the other that it's "their vacation" and that they should be allowed to wear whatever they dam-well please. So ... when someone changes out of their formal garb and back into "comfortable clothing," if such meets their definition of "comfortable," why not shorts and a tank-top on formal night?

[NoNoNanette]

Herb, at the risk of being thought a bit silly here, let me ask a question. Why should we NOT expect that some are going to want to wear shorts and tank tops on formal night? While exceedingly RARE, I have seen people in such garb "out and about" in the evening, in public spaces. Yes, in lounges and even seated next to me in the casino on formal night. Yes, that's right. Me ... in a Tuxedo (dressed according to code) ... and the guy seated next to me at the blackjack table is in shorts and t-shirt. I will admit that this extreme hasn't happened often, but it has happened to me once.

And, pray tell, why not? After all, we've been told up one side and down the other that it's "their vacation" and that they should be allowed to wear whatever they dam-well please. So ... when someone changes out of their formal garb and back into "comfortable clothing," if such meets their definition of "comfortable," why not shorts and a tank-top on formal night?

I find "tank tops" on a man to be acceptable at the pool or beach. PERIOD.

Years ago, I had a neighbor who wouldn't let a man in his house with a tank-top. He found it offensive, and I tend to agree.

That being said, I have no problem with a man in the Casino or showroom in shorts and a t-shirt. (Formal night or not) Wouldn't faze me one bit! To each his own.

How others dress will not affect my cruising enjoyment. :) Life is too short to get into a tizzy about other's choice of clothing!:rolleyes:

[Cruiseoften]

So the questions are:

Have you ever complained to the maitre d' about someone's dress in the DR?
No

In order to preserve traditional dining, would you now begin to do so?

Yes. We have always mentioned it in the Cruise Questionnaire.

It's several years ago now .......2nd seating, Formal night, a group of 8, we met in the Crows Nest at the start of the Cocktail Hour. Waiting for our drinks there were several collective 'gasps' from tables and us close by - four children (age range 4 to to 6 I'd say) were running rampant through the lounge. Waiters with loaded trays were having a hard time avoiding them. There was no apparent supervision. Fearing an accident, one of the men went to the bar, located the Head Waiter and complained on our behalf, HW came to our table and also spoke with tables in the vicinity.

Have to say that the children were most appropriately dressed, the eldest, the 6? year old, even wore a mini-tux. We didn't see them later in the dining room so don't know where they belonged. Point of the story though - we've never again seen a similar situation on any HAL ship.

Hats, baseball caps on the male of the species, regardless of age, should IMHO always be removed when seated indoors - Yes! even in 'greasy spoons', McDonalds, coffee shops, etc.etc. - same applies, indoors or outdoors, when any National Anthem is played (hopefully not ‘sung’!).

Haven't been in church lately, is such headgear kept on there too? Surely not!

[RevNeal]

That being said, I have no problem with a man in the Casino or showroom in shorts and a t-shirt. (Formal night or not) Wouldn't faze me one bit! To each his own.

Just so long as there's no chest hair showing above the neck line, eh? ;)

[RevNeal]

Haven't been in church lately, is such headgear kept on there too? Surely not!

I'll say this much ... some of my men may be prone to wearing shorts to church during the late spring and early summer (it makes it quick and easy for them to go straight to the golf course following the benediction ... or so I'm told), but they do show enough respect for where they are to take off their ball caps while they're in the building. :)

[NoNoNanette]

Just so long as there's no chest hair showing above the neck line, eh? ;)

No- you're mistaken. :rolleyes:

I think that there's a big difference between a man with chest hair poking out of a crew neck t-shirt, and a man in the formal dining room with a partially unbuttoned dress/polo shirt.

[RevNeal]

No- you're mistaken. :rolleyes:

I think that there's a big difference between a man with chest hair poking out of a crew neck t-shirt, and a man in the formal dining room with a partially unbuttoned dress/polo shirt.

Ah, I see.
Ok ... so, since in the photo in question my polo shirt was buttoned to the shirt's top button -- yes, it was -- then your prior remarks didn't apply to me. I'm glad we cleared that one up. :)

[lougee1043]

i think enough of my fellow pax that are following the hal dress code for the evening to remain in my formal dress for the entire evening whether it be tux-suit-sport jacket etc ---

im retired and havent worn a tie and jacket since my last cruise but i have chosen to sail hal and i have also chosen to follow the dress code for the ship

[diboja]

maybe your ta did you a disservice by putting you on a hal ship when you might be more comfortable on a more casual cruise lline


THAT has to be the prime example of a "hoity toity" attitude!!!
How arrogant!!!
Since when are you going to tell me that I am not welcome on a HAL ship?
I said that I follow the rules to a point and NEVER go against the dress code in the dining room.....

By the way - I picked HAL not my TA as we prefer HAL! The vast majority of folks that cruise on HAL have been wonderful....

Thanks for making my point with regard to arrogance....

[HeatherInFlorida]

Speaking of "class" (we were, weren't we?;) ) this exchange is delightful. Is everyone having fun :)???

[lougee1043]

[quote=diboja]
Since when are you going to tell me that I am not welcome on a HAL ship?
I said that I follow the rules to a point and NEVER go against the dress code in the dining room.....quote]

please show me where i said that you were not welcome on a hal ship - in those exact words--------------------------

[caribbean girl]

John-

You need to replace your pic with the one that's on your site.;)

I am borrowing Nanette's post ...she sure is right on this one.

Eye Candy for us ladies ! :D

More information...please!:D

[Copper10-8]

More information...please!:D

Negative, you're OT! Stick to the topic, troublemaker!:cool:

[dakrewser]

THAT has to be the prime example of a "hoity toity" attitude!!!
How arrogant!!!
Since when are you going to tell me that I am not welcome on a HAL ship?
I said that I follow the rules to a point and NEVER go against the dress code in the dining room.....

By the way - I picked HAL not my TA as we prefer HAL! The vast majority of folks that cruise on HAL have been wonderful....

Thanks for making my point with regard to arrogance....

I believe - at least as I read it - that Lou suggested you might be more comfortable on a more casual ship. I thoughty it was a friendly remark. But, perhaps, you're just easily offended.

It's your emphasis on following the dress code only in the dining room which I find offensive. The dress code speaks of the dress for the evening, not just for dinner. That's like saying I obey the speed limit on my street only...

[RevNeal]

Hey... to each his own. If you think that it's OK to wear a polo shirt with chest hair hanging out in the dining room, then do your own thing. Just don't be surprised to see others whispering behind your back.

I find it distasteful... much moreso than jeans in the dining room or shorts in common areas during "formal" night.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Thankfully, it's not part of the published HAL dress code that men's collars must button to the neck on casual nights. If such were the case, I'd would much rather just wear a clerical or a tie than something casual.

[quote from a removed post edited out]

[RevNeal]

Speaking of "class" (we were, weren't we?;) ) this exchange is delightful. Is everyone having fun :)???

LOL ... thanks for the laugh, Heather. I'm reminded of Cheech and Chong's Sister Mary Elephant routine from back in the 1970s... "Class ... class ... SHUT UP!" ;) :D

[Copper10-8]

And now, for something completely different! A picture of a horse! A live horse, no less!:rolleyes:

[RevNeal]

A BEAUTIFUL horse.
One that doesn't need beating, no less ... and thank God!

[ger_77]

RevNeal: I'm not trying to kiss up to the clergy or anything, but I think some chest hairs peeking out of an unbuttoned shirt are sexy. And if there is an abundance of hair and it spills over a neckline, well I don't have the right to tell another they should wax it off. People don't make a big deal out of hairy arms, (have you seen Robin Williams in short sleeves?) why are people getting their panties in a twist over chest hairs???

[Comment quoted from a removed post edited out]

Just my 2 cents worth.

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

[lougee1043]

I believe - at least as I read it - that Lou suggested you might be more comfortable on a more casual ship. I thoughty it was a friendly remark. But, perhaps, you're just easily offended.

It's your emphasis on following the dress code only in the dining room which I find offensive. The dress code speaks of the dress for the evening, not just for dinner. That's like saying I obey the speed limit on my street only...


thank you dakrewser for reading my post exactly as i meant it --- totally agree with your comment about the dress code is for dinner only and the heck with the rest of the rule------------interesting that its ok to mention that they dont follow the hal dress code but nobody posts that they wear jeans to the office where the dress code is suits only --- selective appllication of rules----

[RevNeal]

Thank you ger, I appreciate it on both counts.
I think she was just looking for something to bash me on, and that one came to her eye. I'm hairy enough that I always wear a t-shirt when wearing a white shirt, and I often button polos all the way to the top ... even though it makes me look like a dork. And, still, a bit of hair shows. Here's an example:

http://homepage.mac.com/revneal/.Pictures/noordaminaugral/nyc/nyc9d.jpg

I just can't help it if my chest hair sometimes shows. :) And, frankly, some people like it. :D ;) :eek:

[ger_77]

You're welcome ... great photo - where exactly were you when it was taken? The view is fabulous (and you look pretty good too! :)).

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

[herb]

And some of the most vocal complainers have never even sailed on HAL. ;)

Excuse me peaches: Would you mind pointing out just ONE vocal complaint from someone who has NEVER sailed on HAL(as you have pointed out) regarding the cruiselines cleanliness, staff, food preparation, bedding, embarkation and debarkation procedure?

What is being discussed is whether or not guests are properly dressed for formal night and that transcends all cruiselines, it is not a particular issue to HAL and one need not have sailed on HAL in order to voice an opinion on that! Just check out the threads on the other forums.

[Copper10-8]

Just guestemating: Central Park/NYC? Too easy?

[diboja]

thank you dakrewser for reading my post exactly as i meant it --- totally agree with your comment about the dress code is for dinner only and the heck with the rest of the rule------------interesting that its ok to mention that they dont follow the hal dress code but nobody posts that they wear jeans to the office where the dress code is suits only --- selective appllication of rules----

Sorry, if I misinterpreted your remarks to mean take a hike and get your TA to book you on some cruise line that make take a lower class of passenger....
Thats how it came across - but of course I am not part of the "family" here and can't see the expression on your face when you post.

As far as the office is concerned - have been retired for 7 years and after 40 years of wearing suits - the only time one comes out is for HAL cruises, weddings and funerals..... :D

[RevNeal]

You're welcome ... great photo - where exactly were you when it was taken? The view is fabulous (and you look pretty good too! :)).

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

ger ... it was taken of me at "The Top of the Rock" (i.e., the observation Deck up on the 70th floor of Rockefeller Center) overlooking Central Park in NYC. This was back in Feb ... just prior to the maiden cruise of the Noordam.

More photos from this trip, including from the cruise of the Noordam, can be found here: http://homepage.mac.com/revneal/noordaminaugral/Menu103.html

Thanks!

[ger_77]

Copper 10-8: I figured it was Central Park in the background, but I wanted to know where RevNeal was standing when the pic was taken - it looks like the top of a cathedral or something. Hey, I'm from the "frozen tundra" and we don't have those kinds of things up here!!!! :)

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

[RevNeal]

Just guestemating: Central Park/NYC? Too easy?

CORRECT, Chief!

[Copper10-8]

Copper 10-8: I figured it was Central Park in the background, but I wanted to know where RevNeal was standing when the pic was taken - it looks like the top of a cathedral or something. Hey, I'm from the "frozen tundra" and we don't have those kinds of things up here!!!! :)

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

Yeah, sorry for jumping the gun (didn't see your question when I posted mine)

Saskatoon! Isn't that near Regina? Friend of mine's kid went to the RCMP academy there. I heard you guys have some fun winters!

[Copper10-8]

CORRECT, Chief!

Case of mistaken identity! I'm just a lowely Sgt;)

[RevNeal]

Case of mistaken identity! I'm just a lowely Sgt;)

LOL!
:D
I actually wasn't thinking in terms of rank ... Sergeant John!
But you of all people should know that there's NOTHING lowly about a Sergeant! :)

[Cruiseoften]

I'll say this much ... some of my men may be prone to wearing shorts to church during the late spring and early summer (it makes it quick and easy for them to go straight to the golf course following the benediction ... or so I'm told), but they do show enough respect for where they are to take off their ball caps while they're in the building. :)

revneal :) That makes me feel better! I do so hate to see men/boys/little kids indoors with hats on - particularly baseball caps!

From my earliest recollections of Sunday Church, it had to be the best dress, hat, gloves, socks (knee highs), proper shoes from the age of 6. By the way, I survived those years and taught taught Sunday School!

Of course I complied ( :( what options does a kid have?) but never really understood. Later in life I decided that church attendance didn't depend on dress. On vacation I may well attend a service, hatless, in slacks and sandals. If a dress code is posted, I will of course honor it.......just like I do on a cruise ship. I'm someone who enjoys going Formal and DH enjoys airing his tux. Can't ever remember changing after dinner.

For me, clothes worn 'for show' are seldom comfortable!:)

[ger_77]

Copper10-8: You know your geography! We're about 160 miles nw of Regina - and yes, we have some AMAZING winters - which is one of the reasons we cruise, to escape them in short bursts. It isn't uncommon for us to have -40F temps for a week or two at a time - but then the glaciers recede in late April, early May and we have spring! Y'all should come up sometime and see our seasons!

RevNeal: Thanks for the link - wonderful photos - looks like you had a wonderful experience on the Noordam.

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

[michmike]

[quote=diboja]
We follow the rules - to a point. After having dinner in the main dining room we have gone back to our room to change to be more comfortable at the evening Show. If having dinner in the Lido on a "formal"night and are dressed casual I'll be darned if we are going back to our room to change into formal wear so that we can take in the Show.....quote]

since when are rules ( follow the announced dress code for the entire evening) open for individual interpetation --- to me a rule is a rule--
you can risk speeding above the posted speed limit but you hold yourself open to a ticket ---- a jacket rule in a restaurant is not open to interpetation- no jacket no meal------ you dont put your spin on your works dress code --- a suit is a suit --- you dont walk in wearing jeans or shorts --------------------so why is it so difficult to follow the rules on a hal ship ------ maybe your ta did you a disservice by putting you on a hal ship when you might be more comfortable on a more casual cruise lline

*laffin* surprised it took this long to get to that "why don't you take your low life butt over to carnival" thing...granted we've only been on 5 HAL cruises as opposed to the 50-100 that many of the regular posters here have, but.... WE haven't seen the glaring disregard for the dress code.. and every time this topic comes up we get an anecdotal tale of one or two who didn't dress appropriately... When one considers that there are 1600 aboard, 1 or 2 doesn't exactly constitute the barbarians at the gate.

We always dress appropriately for dinner, but are among the guilty who may sometimes slip back to the room and get into something a bit more comforatble for the show or lounge or casino.. not shorts and a tank top

as others have said.. we're having too much fun with the group we're with to fret about what others (and a very FEW others ) are doing.

[herb]

We always dress appropriately for dinner, but are among the guilty who may sometimes slip back to the room and get into something a bit more comforatble for the show or lounge or casino.. not shorts and a tank top

as others have said.. we're having too much fun with the group we're with to fret about what others (and a very FEW others ) are doing

guilty as charged as well ;)

[babyher]

guilty as charged as well ;)

I am right there with you guys :)

I hope they at least have bar service here in the penalty box *LOL* :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

...............
I think she was just looking for something to bash me on, and that one came to her eye. ...................

Gee, Greg, ...... ya think;) ?????!!!!! LOL:D !!! Sort of grasping at straws, don't you think, when she has to start talking about a bit of hair possibly peeking above a shirt???

Cracked me up:D .

[lougee1043]

mitchmike
i see by the quotes and the copeid post that you are attributing the remark to me ---please be kind enough to show me where i used the exact words that you claim i did ---- if not i believe an apology is in order

<<laffin* surprised it took this long to get to that "why don't you take your low life butt over to carnival" thing<<<<

[Mary Ellen]

..surprised it took this long to get to that "why don't you take your low life butt over to carnival" thing... YOU are putting YOUR spin on what was said. Cruises, like shoes, are not 'one size fits all'. It was quite nicely suggested that a different cruise line may be a better 'fit' for some cruisers. Some people may not be aware that there are cruiselines that do not have formal nights. People that want to cruise, without dressing up, can look into Windstar, Windjammer, or Oceania as examples. Carnival is not one I listed as they DO have formal nights.

We have friends that LOVE Windjammer. It works for them. It wouldn't be a good vacation at all for us. Does that make us better (or worse) than our friends? NO, just different.

Instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, it was just suggested that one might look for that square hole.

[RevNeal]

Gee, Greg, ...... ya think;) ?????!!!!! LOL:D !!! Sort of grasping at straws, don't you think, when she has to start talking about a bit of hair possibly peeking above a shirt???

Cracked me up:D .

It really made me chuckle, too. I was wondering how far she would take it. Clearly, she realized it wouldn't go far enough and would eventually bite her in the tail because she switched to libel (though, I've noticed, Walt edited it out of the board ... as I figured they would).

[michmike]

certainly not looking for a fight and man enough to apologize when that is in order. So, I do apologize for "reading into" your comments.

While that may not have been your tilt on the "try another line" suggestion, I WILL tell you that there hasn't been on rehashing of this topic in the two yrs that I've been on the boards where that comment hasn't been made in these discussions. Always dressed more nicely than I phrased it, mind you, but there nonetheless.

I'd argue that those of us who cruise HAL are drawn to HAL for any number of reasons, just like the folks who drive a Park Ave (ok, now a Lucerne) choose to do so for any number of reasons. While many of the folks posting here in defense of the dress code value that aspect of the HAL experience, others of us choose HAL based on the size of the ships, the friendly Indonesian / Filipino crew, the set dining times, etc etc. So to argue that just because someone prefers to change out of a tux after dinner into something a bit less confining, it means it's the wrong cruiseline for them is
a stretch.

They may be perfectly happy on HAL and perfectly happy going to the show or the lounge in a nice shirt and a pair of dress slacks. While I know that doesn't fit with a strict interpretation of the rules (ok, with any interpretation of the rules) the fact is that it happens, will continue to happen and at least IMHO is less intrusive on my enjoyment of the cruise than having a smoker in the vicinity (but then I'm one of the dress code sinners, aren't I?)

So... feel free to flay us in the confines of the boards, but I'd really feel out of place on Windjammmer or Carnival. I'm totally happpy with HAL and since we only cruise once a year, you won't have to tolerate my scofflaw attitude all that often.

[herb]

I'd argue that those of us who cruise HAL are drawn to HAL for any number of reasons ...
others of us choose HAL based on the size of the ships, the friendly Indonesian / Filipino crew, the set dining times, etc etc. ...
So to argue that just because someone prefers to change out of a tux after dinner into something a bit less confining, it means it's the wrong cruiseline for them is a stretch ...
They may be perfectly happy on HAL and perfectly happy going to the show or the lounge in a nice shirt and a pair of dress slacks.
but I'd really feel out of place on Windjammmer or Carnival.

I agree. When we were on our last Carnival cruise we noticed that the atmosphere on board was just a bit too loud, with kids running around and some of the adults getting a bit out of hand. It was at that point that my wife and I decided we were "ready" for HAL. Their reputation was always (at least we thought so) a more mature crowd, and a more sedate and serene atmosphere ... and both suited our needs. We NEVER EVER knew how strict HAL was in regard to this whole issue of staying dressed after dinner until I started reading this forum. We always were dressed appropriately for dinner, but sometimes after dinner we'd go back and change into neat casual clothes and take a stroll on deck, go to the casino and spend some money, and have a nightcap at one of the bars. We had no idea that by walking through the halls in less than formal wear could cause so much trouble.
P.S. We're still looking forward to the more mature crowd, and a more sedate and serene cruise experience :)

[twoatsea]

Well, I take all the rules seriously. Therefore, you can imagine my shock when the following occured on a formal nite:

We had just finished our dinner in the Lido & were walking out. When much to our shock, striding towards us was a couple in formal clothing. Now, I agree with many others on this board. The rules are clearly outlined - online & in the HAL bible we receive with our tickets. These folks simply were ignoring the rules - Lido is casual. However, DH & I were very proud of ourselves. Arm in arm, neither one of us broke stride. We walked straight towards them; looking them in the eye. We each smiled, nodded, and said in a pleasant voice, "Good Evening." I don't know if they appreciated our generosity or not, but I think they probably did. I'm sure they were worried that we would "look down" on them; possibly even have our evening/dinner ruined because they did not comply. Surely, our kindness earned us some special points in that Great Land in the Sky (no, not Mars; the other one!)

:eek: OK folks, lighten up - it's tongue in cheek. Ouch! Just bit my tongue!:p

[argys mom]

This thread has moved very fast! When I read Brian's comments re Celebrity (my favorite line to date), I was wondering what all the fuss is about. We are taking our first HAL cruise in Sept. on Noordam. We enjoy getting dressed up, and are very comfortable, and on X it has been as Brian described. I never thought HAL would be any different, unless maybe more formal! All of this is making me curious, but I will be the one gussied up on formal nights, and having a ball! Pam

[twoatsea]

Oops, forgot a couple of things -

On page 1, someone (sorry didn't go back & look) said that an unmatching jacket & slacks were not following the formal dress code: Here is what the Know Before You Go book states:
“On festive formal evenings, women usually wear …. & men usually wear business suits or tuxedos. (Gentlemen: Although business suits or tuxedos are suggested attire for formal evenings, they are certainly not required. You are welcome to wear a jacket and tie on formal nights.) ...... I'm sure they mean "with a pair of slacks"! But then, maybe I shouldn't "read into the rules" - a rule is a rule! ;)

Also, regarding those suggesting that non-rule keepers should choose another cruise line - just my thought. When reading these posts, it is very obvious to me that some people are unhappy that the dress code is not enforced, unhappy that some people do not observe the dress code, and dress code so on. Why be unhappy :( on a line that chooses not to enforce the dress code? Why not choose a line, such as, Cunard, that enforces the formal dress code? Just wondering. Humm, I bet the answer is because the unhappy like HAL & want to sail HAL & do so even though times are a-changing. :) It's hard to stop change isn't it. Just like those darn women who wanted the vote! They just didn't know how to follow the rules! :eek:

Happy sailings

[caviargal]

Yes, I have commented to dining room management when I have observed less than proper clothing in the dining rooms (shorts and tanks at dinner) as I find it offensive.

For the past several years (that is when I started noticing such a flagrant disregard for dress codes) on multiple lines, I always note on my comment cards that the dining room dress code needs to have a standard enforced.

I agree that if those of us who prefer a more formal dining experience (and pick certain lines with an expectation that standards will be upheld) do not make these wishes known to the cruise line, it will continue to get worse.

[RevNeal]

On page 1, someone (sorry didn't go back & look) said that an unmatching jacket & slacks were not following the formal dress code

I'm sorry twoatsea, but no one on page 1 said that an unmatching jacket and slacks (with a tie) are not following the formal night dress code. You didn't go back and look, but I did. It simply wasn't said.

Quite the contrary, I have found several postings -- including repeated postings by me -- in which slacks, sports jacket, and tie are outlined as being the dress code's minimal formal night requirements for men. Indeed, I don't know how many times I have made this PERFECTLY clear on this board, but it is ridiculously easy to meet the minimal requirements of HAL's dress code. I demonstrated this on the "Jeans" tread, page 8, post #147 (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=6631013&postcount=147). And, I have had to post such examples and explanations of the minimal requirements of the dress code precisely because it has been repeatedly claimed that I, or others, have asserted that a Tuxedo or a dark suit is all that will meet the dress code. Such a claim is a strawman.

As for the code not specifying slacks with the jacket and tie ... oh Puh-LEEEZE ... if slacks and sports jacket is the minimal requirement for men on informal night do you REALLY think it reasonable to claim that something LESS is going to be required for Formal night? The ONLY substantive difference in men's minimal dress code between informal and formal night is the addition of a tie.

[HeatherInFlorida]

This thread has moved very fast! When I read Brian's comments re Celebrity (my favorite line to date), I was wondering what all the fuss is about. We are taking our first HAL cruise in Sept. on Noordam. We enjoy getting dressed up, and are very comfortable, and on X it has been as Brian described. I never thought HAL would be any different, unless maybe more formal! All of this is making me curious, but I will be the one gussied up on formal nights, and having a ball! Pam

Not to worry, Pam!!! You will have plenty of company as gussied up as you are. I cruise both Celebrity and HAL equally and on my particular cruises have noticed little difference in the attire.

A lot of this babble about dress code here on this board is "much ado about nothing" by just a very few people. The funniest part is that the people making the most noise also keep saying that they actually follow the dress code, but will continue to support people's right not to. I actually think some people just love to argue;) .

Once on the ship you'll forget all about it. I know I do:) .

[argys mom]

Thanks Heather! I am so excited to take this transatlantic cruise, I don't think anything can spoil it. I have read (with interest), the age question, the dress question, chair hogs, etc. We love to cruise, and I am so happy on my cruises that things would have to be over the top before I would even get motivated to complain. I'm just too busy having fun!! I sure would like to meet some of the regular posters on this board--sound like people I'd like to know. Thanks! Pam

[Marbella]

I am wondering about this idea of going back to the cabin and changing out of one's formal wear and into something "more comfortable" for the remainder of the evening.

First of all where do you get the time to do this? :confused: I guess I'm thinking of the late seating we had and our struggle to try and make the 10:15 show. We were late for this show many times. (nothing to do with the excellent service we received in the dining room).

My other thought was that it took me at least an hour :o to get myself glammed up for formal night... why would I want to wear this outfit for only an hour or two? I could just see the reaction from my very patient DH when I said..wait I want to change again!! :rolleyes:

The one item I wish HAL would change is the title of Informal night. Calling it semi-formal might be a clearer description for many.

[Opinions]

p=6631013&postcount=147"]#147[/URL]. And, I have had to post such examples and explanations of the minimal requirements of the dress code precisely because it has been repeatedly claimed that I, or others, have asserted that a Tuxedo or a dark suit is all that will meet the dress code. Such a claim is a strawman.

.

I respectfully disagree...Through the years the question has been asked on these boards what is the dress code for formal nights...Many times (not all) the answer was Tuxedo or darksuit...I immediately posted that a jacket was acceptable according to the code...I certainly agree that you have stated many times that a jacket is proper but there are some (not all) who seem to have not accepted that a suit or tuxedo are not required for formal night.

[RevNeal]

I respectfully disagree...Through the years the question has been asked on these boards what is the dress code for formal nights...Many times (not all) the answer was Tuxedo or darksuit...I immediately posted that a jacket was acceptable according to the code...I certainly agree that you have stated many times that a jacket is proper but there are some (not all) who seem to have not accepted that a suit or tuxedo are not required for formal night.

Hmmm ... ok ... but not on this thread. Not as was claimed above. And not by me. And such is the precise context of my statement. Repeatedly, now, we have seen dress-code opponents who have made the claim (or have otherwise implied) that we on our side have claimed that only a Tuxedo or a dark suit will do. This assertion is laid out there so that they can then attack us for being inconsistent with the code or for being "stuffed shirts" and such when people are not "dressed to the nines," etc. We've seen examples of this strawman on both this thread and the jeans thread this past week. On NEITHER thread has such a claim been made by dress-code supporters. Indeed, repeatedly -- and more than just by me -- it has been stated that a jacket and tie are acceptable within HAL's formal night code. And, still, we see the charge leveled that it is being said that only a Tuxedo or a dark suit will suffice. Again, such is a STRAWMAN. Yes ... I remember seeing it said -- MANY MONTHS AGO -- that only a Tuxedo or a dark suit will do. In most cases the statement was being made as an OPINION as to what qualified as "formal night wear," not as an outline of the HAL dress code. In such circumstances I remember posting the HAL Dress Code and then saying "yes, HAL allows a minimum of a jacket and a tie, not a Tuxedo and or a dark suit." But that was a LONG time ago. When someone posts, above, that on the first page of this thread it was claimed that a jacket and a tie is insufficient, that is a strawman.

[dakrewser]

I am wondering about this idea of going back to the cabin and changing out of one's formal wear and into something "more comfortable" for the remainder of the evening.

I wonder why these people buy formal clothing that's uncomfortable, THAT seems like a waste of money! :rolleyes:

[HeatherInFlorida]

I'm with you, Dave! Most of my formal clothing is more comfortable than some of my more casual stuff (with the possible exception of the shoes ;)). I'm at a point in my life where I want to look really as nice as I can, but comfort is key:) .

[RevNeal]

I also do not understand why people are uncomfortable in formal clothing. Some of the most comfortable clothing I own are my suits and my tuxedo. Of course, by the time I take my next cruise (October!) I'll have to buy a new Tuxedo because my current one is already too large for me. But, still ... when I get it I'll get one that FITS me and has been tailored to FIT me well. I would never buy a suit that is too small for me ... so small that it is uncomfortable.

[kryos]

I also do not understand why people are uncomfortable in formal clothing. Some of the most comfortable clothing I own are my suits and my tuxedo. Of course, by the time I take my next cruise (October!) I'll have to buy a new Tuxedo because my current one is already too large for me. But, still ... when I get it I'll get one that FITS me and has been tailored to FIT me well. I would never buy a suit that is too small for me ... so small that it is uncomfortable.
I guess the reason that I personally find formal clothing uncomfortable is because I haven't worn a skirt or a dress in about 35 years. Most formal clothing for women means a skirt or a cocktail dress or ... horrors ... a gown. But I guess there are nice formal outfits out there for women comprised of slacks, a dressy blouse and a nice blazer. At least I hope so ... cause I'm gonna be shopping for them soon. :(

Blue skies ...

--rita

[fridayeyes]

RevNeal - I will send you hose, heels, and a strapless underwire bra forthwith so that you may truly understand why formalwear is uncomfortable. :D Since times are indeed changing, I will omit any of the 'shaping' garments women often wear under their gowns, and I will allow you to forego the boned bodice. And do remember, you will be dancing backwards on those heels. *winks and grins*

Cheers,

Friday

[csg99]

RevNeal - I will send you hose, heels, and a strapless underwire bra forthwith so that you may truly understand why formalwear is uncomfortable. :D Since times are indeed changing, I will omit any of the 'shaping' garments women often wear under their gowns, and I will allow you to forego the boned bodice. And do remember, you will be dancing backwards on those heels. *winks and grins*

Cheers,

Friday

I would rather wear stockings and heels than a buttoned up shirt and tie any day! As far as the strapless underwire, "boned" bodice, etc, that's a personal choice. Elegance does not require discomfort and the dress code can't be blamed for personal choices.

[NoNoNanette]

I'm SO glad that we'll be cruising together on the Volendam, csg99 ! :)

You've always been so kind and helpful when I've asked questions. Dom and I look forward to meeting you.

Race 'ya to the topless deck! ;)

[NoNoNanette]

Thank you, Peaches. I appreciate the tip.

[RevNeal]

RevNeal - I will send you hose, heels, and a strapless underwire bra forthwith so that you may truly understand why formalwear is uncomfortable. :D Since times are indeed changing, I will omit any of the 'shaping' garments women often wear under their gowns, and I will allow you to forego the boned bodice. And do remember, you will be dancing backwards on those heels. *winks and grins*

No thank you Friday ... high heels look like torture to me. :) And, apart from cassocks, albs, and other clergy duds, I don't wear dresses. You can send that gear to Brian, though ... he might look good in it. ;)

As for the rest ... well ... women complain about how all that stuff hurts or is uncomfortable, but then complain about being too cold. The ONLY problem I have with formal clothing for men is that it's always layered so that one is often too hot, even if the air is on. An undershirt, a dress shirt (with closed neck and tie), a vest, a jacket ... the layers can sometimes be oppressive, so I suppose I DO understand how some guys can be uncomfortable in terms of temperature in such clothing. This being said, however, I have found that I am much less troubled by the layers and by the feeling of being too hot if/when the clothing actually FITS me.

[Copper10-8]

RevNeal - I will send you hose, heels, and a strapless underwire bra forthwith so that you may truly understand why formalwear is uncomfortable. :D Since times are indeed changing, I will omit any of the 'shaping' garments women often wear under their gowns, and I will allow you to forego the boned bodice. And do remember, you will be dancing backwards on those heels. *winks and grins*

Cheers,

Friday

Pardon me but could you give us a hint what that "shaping" garment is? I'm just being nozy!;)

[fridayeyes]

Think "girdle" Copper, though nowadays they're made of spandex and touted by the likes of Victoria's Secret. :) In addition to trimming the waist, you can also buy garments that will lift and separate pretty much anything that can be lifted or separated. They even sell jeans now with tush lifts in them.

Here: http://www2.victoriassecret.com/commerce/application/prodDisplay/?namespace=productDisplay&origin=onlineProductDisplay.jsp&event=display&prnbr=UN-201621&cgname=OSKEYBRPZZZ&rfnbr=2480

Googling a brand name called "Spanx" will also be enlightening. My sister and I still refer to these things as 'scuba suits' though. :)

[Copper10-8]

Think "girdle" Copper, though nowadays they're made of spandex and touted by the likes of Victoria's Secret. :) In addition to trimming the waist, you can also buy garments that will lift and separate pretty much anything that can be lifted or separated. They even sell jeans now with tush lifts in them.

Here: http://www2.victoriassecret.com/commerce/application/prodDisplay/?namespace=productDisplay&origin=onlineProductDisplay.jsp&event=display&prnbr=UN-201621&cgname=OSKEYBRPZZZ&rfnbr=2480

Googling a brand name called "Spanx" will also be enlightening. My sister and I still refer to these things as 'scuba suits' though. :)

Very cool, thanks and much obliged! Now, I can sleep good tonight! Talking about a need to know and being nosy!

PS

Thanks a bunch for that website!;)

[dakrewser]

Googling a brand name called "Spanx" will also be enlightening. My sister and I still refer to these things as 'scuba suits' though. :)

THe mind boggles at the thought of anything called "power panties" :eek:

[Tricia724]

....But I guess there are nice formal outfits out there for women comprised of slacks, a dressy blouse and a nice blazer. At least I hope so ... cause I'm gonna be shopping for them soon. :

Rita....got a really neat outfit which I wore on my last cruise. It's a jacket, tank, and slacks w/panels in the front and back. Looks like a skirt when you're standing still, but when you walk the panels open and it sort of looks like palazzo pants. Mine is pretty dressy with beading and contrast design on the tank and on the panels....but I've seen them in simpler styles and fabrics. Without a doubt the most comfortable outfit I've ever worn on formal night. (Elastic in the back of the slacks....will accommodate any size of meal or dessert.;) Great outfit for mix and match, too, with a plain pair of slacks, skirt, or alternate tops. Ripped it off the sale rack at Dillards for a song.

Good luck with your shopping....hope you find something you like equally as well.

[Marbella]

Tricia,
Your outfit sounds perfect for cruising. I really like outfits that can be 'stretched' (no pun intended) and worn different ways. Also sounds quite comfortable!

[gizmo]

The Fashion board has a thread going on dress code.
http://boards.cruisecritic.com./showthread.php?t=346752

ROTFLMAO at this one. (post #47)
One morning, a woman ate breakfast in the dining room in her bathrobe!

[RevNeal]

gizmo,

What a great read that thread is. I enjoyed it immensely. I especially enjoyed seeing that the kind of arguments, the two-way name calling, the expectations and the attitudes that we've seen here are not unique to the HAL board and to our address of these subjects. In other words ... we're not alone in thinking passionately about these issues, hence remarks often made about how horrible HAL is on such subjects are really not reflective of reality. For example ... here those of us who love the dress code and think it should be enforced are called "snobs." On that thread we would be called "Fashion Fascists" ! :eek: I much prefer being called a snob, an elitist, or a stuffed shirt than a "fascist"!

What was especially wild was to note that I didn't recognize a SINGLE poster on that thread (not until I posted on it!:) ) and, yet, every single argument (or a version of it) had been posted here on these threads on HAL. :)

[ryansmemom]

gizmo,

What a great read that thread is. I enjoyed it immensely. I especially enjoyed seeing that the kind of arguments, the two-way name calling, the expectations and the attitudes that we've seen here are not unique to the HAL board and to our address of these subjects. In other words ... we're not alone in thinking passionately about these issues, hence remarks often made about how horrible HAL is on such subjects are really not reflective of reality. For example ... here those of us who love the dress code and think it should be enforced are called "snobs." On that thread we would be called "Fashion Fascists" ! :eek: I much prefer being called a snob, an elitist, or a stuffed shirt than a "fascist"!

What was especially wild was to note that I didn't recognize a SINGLE poster on that thread (not until I posted on it!:) ) and, yet, every single argument (or a version of it) had been posted here on these threads on HAL. :)


Greg,

I checked that thread out. Yes, it is a great thread. However, it is not a regular fashion board thread. It looks like a Carnival board thread that got moved. The posters are not Fashion board regulars; they are Carnival regulars.(I read both boards and contribute to the Fashion board regularly.) Yes they do discuss the dress code on the Carnival board and they are quite passionate about it. Although after reading that thread, they do seem less prickly than some of the people on this board. They also seem to be very pro- dress code enforcement.

It may surprise people to see how pro-formal night and dress code enforcement people who sail other cruise lines really are. Just take some time and check Carnival, RCI and some others that cater to families and you will be surprised to see how they feel about this issue. There are many people of all ages who enjoy an elegant evening as part of their cruise.

Linda

[RevNeal]

I checked that thread out. Yes, it is a great thread. However, it is not a regular fashion board thread. It looks like a Carnival board thread that got moved. The posters are not Fashion board regulars; they are Carnival regulars.(I read both boards and contribute to the Fashion board regularly.) Yes they do discuss the dress code on the Carnival board and they are quite passionate about it. Although after reading that thread, they do seem less prickly than some of the people on this board. They also seem to be very pro- dress code enforcement.

That's interesting ... I didn't realize that it had been on the Carnival board and moved. I wonder why our dress code wars aren't moved?

I've never done much reading of the Fashion board ... I spend most of my time right here. :)

[gizmo]

Rev,

Glad you enjoyed the thread. I didn't realize it started on the Carnival board either.
Regardless of where the thread started it does show that the pro dress code people on this board are not unique.;)

I thought the "Fashion Fascists" was pretty wild. :eek:

[Stevesan]

Rev,

I thought the "Fashion Fascists" was pretty wild. :eek:

How about just "Fashionistas"?

[NoNoNanette]

You might want to do a "google search" on FASHIONISTAS.... it might surprise/horrify you! :eek:

(XXX MOVIE)

[RevNeal]

Stevesan:
How about just "Fashionistas"?

NoNoNanette:
You might want to do a "google search" on FASHIONISTAS.... it might surprise/horrify you!


Eeeeew ... icky poo.
Now, the blogspot: Las Fashionistas (http://lasfashionistas.blogspot.com/) is interesting. ;)

[ryansmemom]

Hi Nannette,

I googled. This is what I got. This is a link to The World Wide Words. org.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-fas1.htm

This is Stephen Fried. com

http://www.stephenfried.com/gia/fash.html

and Merrium-Webster's 11th College Dictionary defines fashionista as: "a designer, promoter or follower of the latest fashions."



I'm curious, what did you find that was horrifying or surprising?:confused:

Linda

PS. Edited comment.

OK Nanette

I followed your link. Now I get it. Anything to do Britney Spears is horrifying. I absolutly agree with you there. However that is just one definition of fashionista. I don't think we need to throw out the baby with the bathwater (Even Britney's, after all the baby is an innocent). My favorite fashionistas are Stacy and Clinton on TLC and Suzanna and Trinny BBC. They simply tell you "What Not To Wear".

I do like the blog. Thanks.

Linda

[NoNoNanette]

Hi Linda-

I was referring to a XXX movie, entitled, "The Fashionistas". S&M Stuff....:eek:

Never mind. :o

[ryansmemom]

Hi Linda-

I was referring to a XXX movie, entitled, "The Fashionistas". S&M Stuff....:eek:

Never mind. :o


Ohhhh, I see

Don't worry Nanette, I'm a shrink.

I've seen just about everything you can imagine in my classes yet. I remember in my undergrad Psychology of Sexuality Class one student, a friend of mine who had been raised in the genteel south of cotillions and debutantes went into shock when we viewed the video on homosexual sex.The instructor had to debrief her. She was out to shock her husband and went on to get a job counseling prisoners in Graterford State Prison during the week and people with Schizophrenia on the weekends. He wanted to accompany her to work toting a shotgun.

Then there are the piercing catalogues and I am not talking about ears or eyebrows, here. And the tattoos I've seen, wow! Twenty five years of clinical practice, some of it in drug and alcohol and in community mental health and I have seen and heard a whole lot.

I love my job and I love the people I work for. I may be self employed, but I know who I really work for, they are the people I sit across from in my office who come to me for help. My respect and appreciation for people continues to grow each year as I meet more people and learn more and more about them. People are amazing. I am privileged to be allowed to share what they tell me.

Nanette, XXX rated is not nearly as horrifying to me as child abuse, murder or any crimes against persons. Those things are horrific. ** Even worse than breaking the dress code!:eek: **

[NoNoNanette]

Great post and an even greater attitude, kiddo! Thumbs up! ;)

[bepsf]

...Then there are the piercing catalogues and I am not talking about ears or eyebrows, here. And the tattoos I've seen, wow! Twenty five years of clinical practice, some of it in drug and alcohol and in community mental health and I have seen and heard a whole lot.



...as seen on a typical day here in SF.
(YAwn...)

[RevNeal]

Then there are the piercing catalogues and I am not talking about ears or eyebrows, here.

There was a fellow in front of me trying to go through security at DFW who had a real problem. The wand kept signaling something metal in his crotch, and so he had to be taken into a private room to reveal a piercing in certain critical body part. :eek: