*BEWARE*art auction misrepresentation on Oceania's Nautica

[sheinjob]

Dear Fellow Cruisers,
Last month a friend of mine took a cruise onboard Oceania's newest ship, the Nautica. While on her voyage she attended one of the art auctions hosted by Stu and Darice Sheinberg from Fine Art Wholesalers. Part of Stu's marketing campaign was marketing the fact that he was a former NBA player having played for the New York Knicks and the Detriot Pistons. As an avid sports fan I looked him up on several sites, including Google.com, only to find nothing about him ever playing professional basketball.
I am fully aware that in business people will use marketing tactics and strategies to enhance their bottom line. Having said that, I would like to caution everyone out there about someone who obviously misrepresents themselves as this is completely unethical and from my understanding probably illegal. It also brings concern as to what he is selling, especially if he is willingly misrepresenting his own identity.

[Darrell6t]

It is my impression that virtually everything they say at those art auctions is misrepresentation. It is one tiny step away from being a scam.

[Jane110]

I don't doubt your research.

I just find it curious why he would market "art" this way. I mean, even if he were telling the 100% honest truth, how does this make his wares more appealing or valuable?

It's seems so strange to me.

[PurpleCow]

The web site (http://fineartwholesalers.com/) looks legit. Which is not to say that cruise ship art auctions are a good place to spend your decorating dollars.

[LHT28]

If your friend is unhappy with the company and it marketing by the reps they should conatact them.

I am sure people don't by Art based on who is selling it ex NBA player or not.

[Bruin Steve]

Generally, all art auctions, especially those on cruise ships, are a bad deal (I won't say a "scam" because you do get what you are willing to buy at a price you were willing to pay...it's just that it's not a very good price)...

The psychology behind any auction is that bidders THINK they are getting a great deal...and that if they don't grab it now, the opportunity will be gone...
Clueless bidders will drive the price up beyond what the item is really worth .

Now, if you really had the time and opportunity to think about it, you would research anything you might be tempted to buy BEFOREHAND. You would know what it is really worth before bidding on it. If it were a land based auction, you would request a catalog first, maybe an opportunity to preview the auction items...

Now, the "art" they're selling is not unique, one-of-a-kind stuff...Nobody's put Leonardo's Mona Lisa or Rembrandt's Nightwatch on the Nautica to sell to the highest bidder.

What they sell is either mass-produced prints or assembly lined lithographs by generic unknown artists...Anything you can purchase at a cruise ship art auction, you can also purchase when you get home--from local galleries, over the internet...or even from that guy who works out of his trunk at the corner gas station...and for a considerably lower price.

A few things that happen at auctions which assure you won't get a great deal:
1) They generally set a minimum or "reserve" price that is already in excess of their cost, guaranteeing them a profit.
2) (and this IS scammy) The use of "shills". Someone in the audience is actually playing for the house...bidding only to drive the price up, getting the "serious" bidder to beat their price. Often, after the bidding is over, if the real bidder hasn't topped the shill, the auctioneer will approach the bidder with "good news": Either another copy has been located or the higher bidder inexplicably backed out...and they're now willing to sell one to you at your bid price!
3) The auctioneer will artificially establish a value in the minds of the audience, citing "retail value" or an alleged "appraisal"...Except that the value alleged is bogus...That "Retail" or "appraised" $1500 artwork actually regularly sells for $175 at loads of retail establishments...Of course the buyer walks away thinking he's just bought a $1500 steal at $350 when he has, in fact, paid double what he could have bought it for off the ship...

These auctions are a PROFIT CENTER...They don't have them because they're losing money...The auction company is doing quite well...andthey're also funneling a large cut to the cruise line...

If you like a piece of art you see on a ship, write down the name of the artist and of the piece...When you get home, Google it on the internet and buy it there...

Personally, if I want a piece of art as a memento of my cruise, I'll buy something in port from a local artist--something that is reflective of my actual voyage, something that is likely one-of-a-kind...

Or, if you must, treat the art auctions like the casino--know you are paying a premium for entertainment value...Of course, at least in the casino, you have a CHANCE of winning...

[ClaudiaF]

it's all about the "free" champagne anyways...:D

[Jancruz]

Steve..
You are so right, I do buy art on the ship BUT:

1) I research what I want first at home..(most of the pieces as you say are all over the place..and if they dont have it they will get it and send to you!)
2) I contact the art director directly, we do not go and drink champagne..
3) I wait until the last day to negotiate the price I am will to pay gross..
4) I get art at a GREAT price!!

Jan
*************

[mike35]

We were SOOOO disappointed in the art selection - we really wanted black velvet background with Elvis or a clown, and all they had was a leopard!!

Mike

[Jane110]

Steve..
You are so right, I do buy art on the ship BUT:

2) I contact the art director directly, we do not go and drink champagne..

Jan
*************

.....and yet Claudia and I always save a glass for you! <hiccup>

[Jancruz]

.....and yet Claudia and I always save a glass for you! <hiccup>

I tell Stu what to do..(yeah right) and then I drink with you two..
Jan

[Andee]

We don't know enough about art to buy it for an investment--just buy what pleases us. We love to buy something from a local artist that reminds us of a place we've been.

But, we also bought one of our favorite pieces at a ship's art autction, just because we loved it--and it still delights us. When we got home, I searched the net, and found similar pieces, unframed, for 50% more than we paid, framed. I wasn't looking for a bargain, but didn't want to find out that I had been taken advantage of. Our question when we look at the price is, "Is it worth that amount to us?"

[ClaudiaF]

We were SOOOO disappointed in the art selection - we really wanted black velvet background with Elvis or a clown, and all they had was a leopard!!

Mike

Mike,
We passed on the leopard too..didn't match our decor...we did bid on the velvet Elvis..of course after all that free champagne lost out to Jan..who has it hung proudly in her living room:rolleyes: ...........love that ship art!!!

[Jancruz]

Mike,
We passed on the leopard too..didn't match our decor...we did bid on the velvet Elvis..of course after all that free champagne lost out to Jan..who has it hung proudly in her living room:rolleyes: ...........love that ship art!!!

Claudia..it is in my dining room so everyone can see it while eating!!
Jan
*************

[Bruin Steve]

Mike,
We passed on the leopard too..didn't match our decor...we did bid on the velvet Elvis..of course after all that free champagne lost out to Jan..who has it hung proudly in her living room:rolleyes: ...........love that ship art!!!
Yeah...and I missed out on a really outstanding, one of a kind piece of art...It was a clever illustration of four dogs playing poker. I am certain this outstanding artist probably has other intriguing pieces hanging in the Louvre, the Prado and the Hermitage...

[tlmlb]

Its just another example of providing a sterile experience designed to rip people off and divert their passengers from actually spending dollars in port.

Most cruisers ultimate fear is that they will really have to experience anything different than what they get in the usa. That is the premise for the shore excursions, art auctions etc....

[larablair]

Please tell me the champagne is worth drinking!!! I am pretty choosy when it comes to my bubbly, even if it is free!! I will attend one auction, just for the fun of it!! I agree with other posters. We usually buy something on land, that we fall in love with, then bring it home for framing, the framing is usually far more expensive than the artwork!! Jeanine

[cusyl]

Actually, the poker playing dogs artist,Cassius Coolidge is quite famous, and very funny prints . :D

[PurpleCow]

Oh, dear, Steve! You missed out on a bargain I fear. This from the DoyleNewYork (http://www.doylenewyork.com/DogsInArt/2005/) web site: 'DOGS PLAYING POKER' SELLS FOR $590,400 AT DOYLE NEW YORK ON FEBRUARY 15, 2005.

[Jane110]

Please tell me the champagne is worth drinking!!! I am pretty choosy when it comes to my bubbly, even if it is free!!

too subjective a question to answer.

my suggestion is to go to the auction and try it. if you don't like it, you don't have to drink it or buy anything.

[brian_uk]

Sad to say...but I have to agree with BruinSteve.....what is the point and why Art ?

Just consider that they are employing 3 people at a total wage bill probably in the region of $2000 a week plus commission, and the "house and the ship have to earn their share too"

What would you think Oceania and others want for that space ?

The reason that " A R T " is chosen is because it is a Blind Game.......there is no real value and buyers are generally convinced that the enjoyment overrides the cost.

What else could be sold on Ships at such vastly inflated prices........Jewellery....no that is sold in every port.......

If they were not raking in such huge profits Oceania and others would not have them on board and that says it all.....

Brian

[larablair]

My ? was tongue in cheek!

[jnh]

I always like the "free" art day- all you have to do is pay for the framing and shipping- which is $150 to $350. Hummmmm-maybe it isn't free after all.
Like the "free" computer learning cd for only $6.95 shipping and handling.

[gizmo]

We were SOOOO disappointed in the art selection - we really wanted black velvet background with Elvis or a clown, and all they had was a leopard!!

Mike

LOL No kidding, those Velvet Elvis pictures are worth some $$$$. They give the Poker Dogs a run for the money. :D

[sandbag7]

Why would being a former basketball player lend some kind of cachet to an art sale? Only in the sad clown world of cruise art.

[Liat]

[QUOTE=mikebrill]We were SOOOO disappointed in the art selection - we really wanted black velvet background with Elvis or a clown, and all they had was a leopard!!

Mike;

You will be thrilled when I tell you that for a mere $1750.00 (plus 15% Cruisecritic Board premium), we can hand deliver a GORGEOUS Black Velvet print of Elvis stroking a leopard to you in Palm Springs. We can meet at Johannes Restaurant when we are there in December. I am positive you will be so thrilled by your new acquisition that you will pick up the check. Are we on for December 8?

Phil and Edith

[Liat]

[QUOTE=mikebrill]We were SOOOO disappointed in the art selection - we really wanted black velvet background with Elvis or a clown, and all they had was a leopard!!

Mike;

You will be thrilled when I tell you that for a mere $1750.00 (plus 15% Cruisecritic Board premium), we can hand deliver a GORGEOUS Black Velvet print of Elvis stroking a leopard to you in Palm Springs. We can meet at Johannes Restaurant when we are there in December. I am positive you will be so thrilled by your new acquisition that you will pick up the check. Are we on for December 8?

Phil and Edith

[mike35]

We can meet at Johannes Restaurant when we are there in December. I am positive you will be so thrilled by your new acquisition that you will pick up the check. Are we on for December 8?

Phil and Edith

M'gawd - what a deal! Maybe we can convince Johannes to do a trade-out - the Elvis dreck for a superb meal! He could hang the picture right in his window - the one that a driver drove through a couple of weeks ago! We were just there last week - wonderful as usual.

If you're serious about meeting at Johannes, however, we would love to join you guys - keep in touch.

Mike

[Liat]

M'gawd - what a deal! Maybe we can convince Johannes to do a trade-out - the Elvis dreck for a superb meal! He could hang the picture right in his window - the one that a driver drove through a couple of weeks ago! We were just there last week - wonderful as usual.

If you're serious about meeting at Johannes, however, we would love to join you guys - keep in touch.

Mike

We will be using a time share week at the Tennis Club on Baristo from December 7 to the 14th. We are going (I hope I get tickets) to LA for the Opera on Sunday the 10th, but otherwise have no serious plans at this point.
our e-mail is: hagglawphx@aol.com

[cruisin'cats]

Obviously I'm going to be booed out of the message board but had to put my two cents in--
just returned from the 17 May sailing Istanbul to Athens of the Nautica. No one at the Auction by that name or with that story. Richard, heavyset English guy who couldn't wake the dead with his schtick. However we did buy two pieces on this ship--and have been buying art on the ships for years now. There is a lot of misinformation on this board right now--and some of it is from people who have not truely researched the facts, including shipping costs. But my experience isn't always the same as yours so I'm not here to argue. I am here to tell you that our art collection purchased mostly on the ships, is actually quite well done in terms of value and pricing. Jan is right--you can prepare for an art auction with research about certain artists' works and go knowing how much something should cost on land. Honestly, and I don't mean this as a shill for the auctioneers, the prices are well below what I have seen online and at the galleries. I met a woman on a previous cruise who attends just to keep track of prices and she showed me her list of works and prices--and she did research on the artists' works on land and her efforts supported what I'd learned too. I have met people who go on cruises to buy the better pieces--not prints or posters--for cheaper than available on land.

The company that is on Oceania's ships is the same one that was on Princess in the past, and Richard said that his firm still handles aspects of Princess' art sales today. It is not Park West, the mega gallery that is represented on the majority of mass market cruise lines.

As for shills in the audience, if this guy on Nautica ever needed a shill, it was on this trip! Only a few of us bought anything--and like Jan, I did most of my transactions separately from the actual auction for the best pricing. This is not always true or possible with all auctions.

As for the champagne--it's awful! If you know Champagne, if you like Champagne, if you have never tasted Champagne, don't bother---and that's my best advice.

My DH and I used to laugh at people in the art auctions on our first few cruises--and only started going to the first one because it was a rainy day at sea and there wasn't anything else to entertain us going on. It's just fun to sit in and learn about the artists and works, even if you don't buy. Long gone are the days of really cheap works but it's still entertaining. It's volume that makes money for the cruise line and the auction houses--not just the one and two bit sales. You may laugh, like we did, but there are lots of people buying at these things or the galleries wouldn't have them.

Lest you think that the art is garbage and unknowns, I will share this. We bought an original painting by an artist from FL named Shana Dominguez in 2002. We paid a realively reasonable price for it. Recently my husband went to a client bank and there was a room full of her works. Seems that the bank purchased her works as investments, as banks are wont to do. On Nautica, believe it or not, her works were hanging in the stair wells. One of the Atlantic City casinos has her works in their top level suites because the owner's wife loves her work. Go figure!

[LindaB1]

Hi Helene

I am glad to hear that about Shana Dominguez, because we have one of her pieces as well. We bought it on our Crystal cruise in 2004. Hope all we well with you and Neil.

Linda

[cruisin'cats]

Do you have my home email address?

Did you see the Shana art works on Nautica? I didn't like them as much as the one I own but, hey, it's all abstract art which means who knows what it means to others, right?

I saw your other posts...would love to hear about your end of vacation days in Athens. I emailed with Judy and Rory afterwards and they told me some stories (and mentioned that they talked to Janet, etc.)

Do Keep in Touch!

Helene

[LindaB1]

I do not. You can email me at lbaker7263@aol.com. Talk to you soon.

[cruisin'cats]

thanks for the address. I'll write a note to send you mine. :)

[Ms Klaus-111]

Dear Fellow Cruisers,
Last month a friend of mine took a cruise onboard Oceania's newest ship, the Nautica. While on her voyage she attended one of the art auctions hosted by Stu and Darice Sheinberg from Fine Art Wholesalers. Part of Stu's marketing campaign was marketing the fact that he was a former NBA player having played for the New York Knicks and the Detriot Pistons. As an avid sports fan I looked him up on several sites, including Google.com, only to find nothing about him ever playing professional basketball.
I am fully aware that in business people will use marketing tactics and strategies to enhance their bottom line. Having said that, I would like to caution everyone out there about someone who obviously misrepresents themselves as this is completely unethical and from my understanding probably illegal. It also brings concern as to what he is selling, especially if he is willingly misrepresenting his own identity.

I see that this thread's been dead for quite a while, but if anyone's still reading it - Stu & Darice are still alive and kicken'. However, they now state that their last name is Shein as opposed to Sheinberg. I was aboard the RCI Brilliance of the Seas in January on a Panama Canal cruise, and met Stu & Darcie in the Concierge Lounge. We referred to Stu as the NBA Logo-man. He ALWAYS wore NBA warm-ups and was still proclaiming to be a former NBA player from the early 70's. He stated that he had played for 5 years for the Nicks and the Pistons. Although he wasn't involved in the art auctions aboard the Brilliance (they were run through Part West), he did represent that he was the CEO/President of Fine Art Auctions at Sea. That's precisely what his "free" vistaprint business card stated, which also included his business e-mail address on hotmail.com.

I too tried to research his claims as to being an NBA player, and I found nothing. However, I did find that he and Darice have been sailing for many years, and usually on multi-week cruises. He was also known as Stu Shein & Stu Sheinberg (pictures don't lie).

However, he was quite a character, and I enjoyed the evening chats with him, whoever he was.

[spindrift]

Actually this is a company that has somehow convinced most of the cruise lines that they have a great deal, offer some entertainment for the passengers thereby permitting the cruise line staff to think of "less" activities that they have to do, pay the cruise line a large percentage of their sales, and are basically the "STARVING ARTIST SALES" they have in the local Holiday Inns. It is a tragedy and gives less credibility to the status of a cruise line. Bottom line, folks, the almighty dollar at the expense of others.

Beware of the champagne. Cheap bottle, cheap high, and then comes the sale. Wake up passengers.

I was sad to see on our most recent sailing w/Oceania, the entire Nautica Lounge was covered with paintings (if you wish to call them that) up each side when you went in to hear a lecture. Then toward the end for some of the final presentations, they had the "stuff" there hoping to make last minute sales. Ruins a ship, and particularly that beautiful lounge.

Beware.

[orchestrapal]

If enough people DO NOT BUY the stuff offered at the art auctions they will go the way of the photographers.
Won't that be nice!

[merryecho]

On the other hand, if some people like the art, and it makes money for Oceania, it helps keep costs down for the rest of us. I don't mind looking at furniture store art onboard, if it keeps the price of a glass of wine under $10.

[Druke I]

Well, the art salesperson on Nautica, November 06, Istanbul to Singapore, was a rather loud sort who identified himself as Tiny Tim.

He managed to disrupt the string quartet several times during the trip with his obstreperous exhortations. I thought he was obnoxious at best.

I for one would prefer to see art sales in galleries, not on cruise ships.

[Rickey 88]

Well, the art salesperson on Nautica, November 06, Istanbul to Singapore, was a rather loud sort who identified himself as Tiny Tim.

He managed to disrupt the string quartet several times during the trip with his obstreperous exhortations. I thought he was obnoxious at best.

I for one would prefer to see art sales in galleries, not on cruise ships.

We shared that cruise with Druke I and suffered through the amplified "bleatings" of the Loud and Objectionable "Tiny Tim". However, I would suggest to Oceania's management that ALL the hucksters from this so-called Art Studio have been LOUD and OBJECTIONABLE!!

[drummondcreek]

Obviously I'm going to be booed out of the message board but had to put my two cents in--
just returned from the 17 May sailing Istanbul to Athens of the Nautica. No one at the Auction by that name or with that story. Richard, heavyset English guy who couldn't wake the dead with his schtick. However we did buy two pieces on this ship--and have been buying art on the ships for years now. There is a lot of misinformation on this board right now--and some of it is from people who have not truely researched the facts, including shipping costs. But my experience isn't always the same as yours so I'm not here to argue. I am here to tell you that our art collection purchased mostly on the ships, is actually quite well done in terms of value and pricing. Jan is right--you can prepare for an art auction with research about certain artists' works and go knowing how much something should cost on land. Honestly, and I don't mean this as a shill for the auctioneers, the prices are well below what I have seen online and at the galleries. I met a woman on a previous cruise who attends just to keep track of prices and she showed me her list of works and prices--and she did research on the artists' works on land and her efforts supported what I'd learned too. I have met people who go on cruises to buy the better pieces--not prints or posters--for cheaper than available on land.

The company that is on Oceania's ships is the same one that was on Princess in the past, and Richard said that his firm still handles aspects of Princess' art sales today. It is not Park West, the mega gallery that is represented on the majority of mass market cruise lines.

As for shills in the audience, if this guy on Nautica ever needed a shill, it was on this trip! Only a few of us bought anything--and like Jan, I did most of my transactions separately from the actual auction for the best pricing. This is not always true or possible with all auctions.

As for the champagne--it's awful! If you know Champagne, if you like Champagne, if you have never tasted Champagne, don't bother---and that's my best advice.

My DH and I used to laugh at people in the art auctions on our first few cruises--and only started going to the first one because it was a rainy day at sea and there wasn't anything else to entertain us going on. It's just fun to sit in and learn about the artists and works, even if you don't buy. Long gone are the days of really cheap works but it's still entertaining. It's volume that makes money for the cruise line and the auction houses--not just the one and two bit sales. You may laugh, like we did, but there are lots of people buying at these things or the galleries wouldn't have them.

Lest you think that the art is garbage and unknowns, I will share this. We bought an original painting by an artist from FL named Shana Dominguez in 2002. We paid a realively reasonable price for it. Recently my husband went to a client bank and there was a room full of her works. Seems that the bank purchased her works as investments, as banks are wont to do. On Nautica, believe it or not, her works were hanging in the stair wells. One of the Atlantic City casinos has her works in their top level suites because the owner's wife loves her work. Go figure!

I understand the disbelief that many people have for cruise auctions. We did too until we did our research. We buy from galleries, directly from artists, off ebay and yes, on cruise ships. We have gotten good deals from all and we have probably over paid at all. I DON"T CARE! I buy art because i like it. I buy originals, I buy serigraphs and I buy lithographs. All are forms of original creativity. I don't buy mass prints. I don't buy them as an investment but I do track their value for insurance purposes.

As to the people who say you are buying "starving artists" check out some of these artists. There is plenty on line about them and I have bought their works both on ship and on land. Michael Goddard, Igor Medvedev, Fanch Ledan, Jean-Claude Picot, Martirios Manoukian to name a few. I have no intention of ever selling any of my works but others do. Before i wrote this I went to ebay. There is a piece by Fanch called Interior Dalinean. I bought this serigraph a half dozen years ago for $400 dollars. This morning you can pick it up on ebay for just under a thousand.

I don't feel ripped off. I don't buy art to match my furniture. I buy art that I enjoy looking every day. Art is to be enjoyed, not to fill space on a wall.

If you are tempted to try an art auction, start small. Look at what is available on board on the first day and then head to the computer. Google the artist and find out what their pieces of art sell for. Use that as a guide. Never buy art as an investment. Buy it because you enjoy it.

Everyone else can giggle as they pass by the art auctions on their way to the casino to wisely invest their money there.

[cruisin'cats]

Glad someone else sees this aspect of the auction and enjoys the event as well as their purchase. I don't get the rest of you--if I don't like BINGO should I start a whole agonizing thread on line about how the ship's are making money selling bingo cards and that, for all the people who walk away empty handed, it is a total rip-off? No. The art auctions, like the bingo games, are entertainment and only those who chose to go are affected. No one raises your card for you, bids for you, or forces you to enter the room or take the lousy champagne. I've never met a single drunk at an art auction--and if someone here really believes that people are lured into the room with cheap champagne and then given more than the one glass of it just to get them to purchase anything, I'd like to sell them a bridge! C'mon--take some chill pills and relax about this. Be an adult, be responsible for what you chose to do on the ships, and buyer beware is the rule on land and on sea no matter who is hawking the goods.

[merryecho]

Everyone else can giggle as they pass by the art auctions on their way to the casino to wisely invest their money there.[/QUOTE]

Good Point!