Bumped!

[qe2]

I was booked in the Noordam for Aug 9. Today Aug 4, I was notified that the ship was overbooked and I could get a refund or sail on Sept 18.
I have a flight booked for Aug 7. This is awful.
Beware.... not only do I have airline flights and hotel resrevations but Holland America who told me that
I could not sail in 4 days is now telling me that I cancelled and maybe I will get a refund but it may take a while.
When I questioned the policy, I was told that it is what the airlines do so it is ok.
The obvious thing is for me to call my travel agent. I am a travel agent!
Do they think that I will risk my valued clients with the possibility of this happening to them.NEVER

[sail7seas]

This is the first time I have heard of such a thing happening on HAL.

I have heard of them making all sorts of offers to tempt you to voluntarily give up your cabin and sail on a different date but I've never heard of them cancelling someone in this way.

Of course, if they have cancelled you........they must refund all your money. That is a given. IF they have taken your cabin, there is no question but that you get your money back.

Do you have your cruise documents?

[newmexicoNita]

I am in a state of shock!!!! I haven't had this happen recently, but when I was still working in the Dallas area there were a few situations where the ships did over sell. In all cases they knew it at least a month out and offered a heck of a lot more than a future cruise: they offered a future cruise at 1/2 price, special amenties, or whatever. Even then, never did they totally bump anyone, they offered the same to several passengers, just like the airlines do, knowing they could get enough volunteers so they wouldn't have to bump. This close is totally awful. Anyone who follows my comments (sometimes I open my mouth too much) knows I usually side with the cruiseline. Certainly not in this case. I did have a friend that was bumped off an HAL cruise about 4 years ago, but she was bumped about 2 months in advance. What to do, I can't tell you, but my heart goes out to you. The only posibility and it is a long shot would be to try and find another cruise, leaving from the same area within a day or so of your planned cruise. The only problem with that: so many require reservations be made a week in advance. Check it out anyway. I know this isn't much consolation, but it is something and they certainly do owe you your entire cruise cost back, every darn penny......NMNita

[Bramcruiser]

It sounds exactly like the same stunt that the callers from Oceania did which got them into trouble on that now infamous thread about a month back. In that situation the reps never once let the passengers know they had an option to refuse the cancellation and continue the cruise and made it sound as if they really had no choice. This incident occurred also within the last few days of the two CC'ers who were about to embark on their journey. Well the Oceania board exploded and Cruise Critic ended up doing a news report on the whole incident. The situation was only resolved when the CEO of the line intervened and made reparations.

Bottom line is to question why you are being cancelled and say point blank that they better find another passenger to volunteer. Yes, the cruise line has the rights to cancel but they usually don't just for overbookings. What they usually do is find people willing to be rebooked and they usually do it very early on where some have a chance to reschedule vacations. Almost always there are enough. Like the Oceania incident they might not have got enough volunteers and are now desparately trying to offload some passengers. Still there is no excuse and why shoud you be bumped instead of someone else? If they aren't giving you the option I'd phone them back. I smell a repeat of the Oceania incident all over again.

[twinkletoes4445]

Wow, I would be VERY unhappy at this point. When the airlines "do it," they can get you on another flight...many times a few hours later. When a cruise line dumps you...you are hosed.

Honestly, as much as I love to cruise...if this happened to me...I doubt I'd cruise again. :(

[qe2]

I am exploring my options. I have train tickets already purchased so I will probably put together a land itnerary. My problem with the situation is such sort notice for a cruise leaving from Rome. Miami... Ft. Canaveral ..not a problem but when it is so far away and such short notice, it's a problem.

[Bramcruiser]

I am exploring my options. I have train tickets already purchased so I will probably put together a land itnerary. My problem with the situation is such sort notice for a cruise leaving from Rome. Miami... Ft. Canaveral ..not a problem but when it is so far away and such short notice, it's a problem.

This from a person who normally doesn't ever want to make a scene but.........fight it! The overbooking is their problem and if the telephone reps don't change their mind bad publicity will. I thought the cruise lines would shy from this after the Oceania incident. Strangely it happened in about a months time.

[jes2245]

Excuse me for being skeptical, but they are a travel agent in Central Florida and call it Fort Canaveral???

[AlohaPride]

I was booked in the Noordam for Aug 9. Today Aug 4, I was notified that the ship was overbooked and I could get a refund or sail on Sept 18.
I have a flight booked for Aug 7. This is awful.
Beware.... not only do I have airline flights and hotel resrevations but Holland America who told me that
I could not sail in 4 days is now telling me that I cancelled and maybe I will get a refund but it may take a while.
When I questioned the policy, I was told that it is what the airlines do so it is ok.
The obvious thing is for me to call my travel agent. I am a travel agent!
Do they think that I will risk my valued clients with the possibility of this happening to them.NEVER

Oh my Dear LORD! I TOTALLY feel for you!! I though I had been having problems, but this is soooo much worse! Traveling abroad just adds to the fiasco. I hope you drag them through the hot coals for this one. Did you happen to catch the name of the person who told you you HAD to cancel? They shouldn't have done that! If they did, they should have told you they would pay for ALL cancellation fees (air, hotel, etc.!)

I've always found it funny that if WE as passengers/clients cancel we have to pay...but if those companies providing the service have to cancel we STILL have to pay. Do you have your cruise docs? I would think there would be SOMETHING you could do!

[twoatsea]

GE, I'm confused. Do you have "train" tickets or "plane" tickets? Or are you saying that you did have plane tickets & now booked train tickets? Since you are an agent, I'm assuming you have travel insurance. :confused:

[qe2]

Sorry typo.... Port Canaveral

[Aussie Gal]

That is such an awful thing to happen so close to departure and especially as you have to fly to Europe.

I am wondering if you were on a special sailing for T.A's or on a special deal for T.A's whereby they could cancel you for someone who would be paying the full fare. I know that T.A's here do get special trips overseas so that they can pass on first hand information to their clients.

Otherwise, if it happened to us I would be causing such a fuss as we have so far to travel, air fares are not cheap and we would also have all our accommodation organized in Europe. I certainly would not be taking this lightly.

Good luck.

Jennie

[ocngypz]

HAL does offer to pick up the change fees. You need to call the Rez Admin number on your fax.

Were you paying regular tariff...............or agent rates??

[qe2]

I have train tickets for travel before and after the cruise, in addition to airline tickets to fly to Rome.
I do have travel insurance but I can't see anywhere in the policy that it covers cancellation by the cruiseline. I will certainly contact my insurance company but the main point is that Holland America should not have sold staterooms which they do not have. I booked on a guarantee but I received documents with a stateroom designated. That is the most frightening thing about this.

[iceman93]

I am wondering if you were on a special sailing for T.A's or on a special deal for T.A's whereby they could cancel you for someone who would be paying the full fare. I know that T.A's here do get special trips overseas so that they can pass on first hand information to their clients.

This is what occurred to me as well. That, and the fact that a TA is, of everyone in the traveling public, the best able to handle last-minute travel changes with a minimum of fuss and cost.

I guess I would recommend calling Seattle and playing the "travel agent" card, reminding them that this kind of treatment of you will have repurcussions far beyond one inconvenienced passenger. Good luck!

[earl_m]

This is really scarey! You wait 6 months to a year for your cruise and they can caNCEL it at last minute.THATS JUST NOT RIGHT.You must fight this.

[Bramcruiser]

I just picked up on the fact the OP is a TA. Well that might be not be a smart move on the cruise line's part if the TA card is pulled and business will be threatened as to not be forwarded their way.

[hammybee]

When an airline overbooks, the first to be volunteered are airline employees on personal travel. If the airline must dip into the regular passenger list, they offer rewards for volunteers and increase the awards until they have a sufficient number of seats available. If there are no volunteers, Rule 240 applies and it's up to the airline to get the passengers to their destination regardless of carrier or expense. Rule 240 applies only when the problem is within the airlines's control. So weather issues fall outside of this. There is no such protection for cruise passengers.

Given we all pass the point of no return months before the sailing date, HAL knew it was in a over-booked situation for a long time. This is very different than the fluid situation with airlines.

I am curious if HAL was aware of the OP's status as a T/A or if this was perhaps a T/A promotion and if this caused them to choose the OP. It's a two-edged sword if they did as T/As are in a position to influence some client's choice of cruiseline and it seems HAL will not be the first name off the OP's lips, going forward.

I assume hotels can be cancelled. I assume there will be a penalty for changing the air and HAL certainly will need to eat this. I do not understand why HAL is not looking for volunteers the same way as airline do in similar situations and making it worth someone's while to change their plans. I guess the good news is that HAL did not wait until everyone was in Rome, but this sure does stink. The entire situation needs t be accelerated within HAL until a level is reached where the HAL employee can make the business decision to make it worth the OP's time to change his/her plans. It's a darn shame that the onus is on the OP to do so.

[qe2]

Iceman,
Excactly, Since I could not change my trip to Sept 18, I cancelled which was my only other choice. Then I was told that I was in penalty and MAY get my money back. I requested a supervisor but the never actually got one. Yes, I was travellng on TA rates. I was hoping to report that the Holland America experience has improved in the last year or two.

[qe2]

I have documents with a stateroom number. Guess that they don't mean anything!

[AlohaPride]

Iceman,
Excactly, Since I could not change my trip to Sept 18, I cancelled which was my only other choice. Then I was told that I was in penalty and MAY get my money back. I requested a supervisor but the never actually got one. Yes, I was travellng on TA rates. I was hoping to report that the Holland America experience has improved in the last year or two.

Ewww...it's not fun asking for a supervisor. I did that once and was hung up on by the Supervisor. I think GN is right on another thread when she said communication with HAL is difficult if not absolutely impossible.

Please let us know how everything works out!

[Aussie Gal]

As you have documents with a stateroom number, and even though you are a T.A. on special rates, I cannot see that you can be cancelled unless of course HAL was hoping that other passengers would cancel instead.

The stateroom number worries me, as it means that anyone of us can be cancelled in a similar way. If you still only had a guarantee and no number as yet, that would have given you some warning of the ship being overbooked but when you have your actual cabin number then something is definitely amiss. I still would be pressing all sorts of buttons and demanding an explanation.

Jennie

[BumperII]

This whole thread really sounds like it is way off of HAL standard operating procedure.

Just to relate "what happened to my son". He and his wife booked a seventeen day relocation cruise from San Diego through the Panama Canal winding up in Florida. HAL called him up several weeks ahead and said they really needed the cabins he had already paid for, and they needed them very badly. HAL did quite a bit to buy it back:

HAL agreed to fully refund all his money.
In addition, HAL replaced the cruise with a fifteen day cruise to Hawaii, free of charge, followed by a three day all expense paid excursion to Las Vegas!

So, anyway, it sounds like you still need to make some more calls. I would hate to think that the "Carnival Cruise" influence has taken HAL as far as they seem to have gone in qe2's case.

Keep on complaining until you get a satisfactory settlement. You can do it, good luck!!;)

[RuthC]

I very confused---must be missing something here. Please help me understand.
Why is it that you are deemed to have "cancelled" if HAL said "no sale/sail" on the original date and you couldn't accept the substitution offered.
Why are you saying there only two choices? Isn't there the choice of "No, I'm not changing my plans"?

I'm not doubting your story, but I don't feel I'm understanding the full picture. Please elaborate.

[sail7seas]

What does Carnival have to do with any of this? Carnival has owned HAL for many, many years.

This whole scenario is very odd.

It just isn't how HAL handles over-bookings. We know from time to time they overbook but they don't just cancel people out.

Is there anything else about this story that can help us understand more?

Your TA rate.... Was it the $25 pp per day kind of thing?

[sail7seas]

Ruth......You and I were posting at the same time and it seems both of us hope for more info to help us understand. I have this gnawing kind of thing that there might be a little more info OP can share with us to help us understand.

It is an awful thing to lose out on your vacation. HAL has never been known to do this to people.

[Aussie Gal]

I know that when T.A.'s go from Oz on tours or cruises, they actually do not have to pay any money, it is gratis, so perhaps this was the case. I know that they all love to get these "educationals".

Jennie

[newmexicoNita]

I am exploring my options. I have train tickets already purchased so I will probably put together a land itnerary. My problem with the situation is such sort notice for a cruise leaving from Rome. Miami... Ft. Canaveral ..not a problem but when it is so far away and such short notice, it's a problem.
Just out of curiosity, did you have a travel agency rate or were you paying full price? NMNita

[newmexicoNita]

That is such an awful thing to happen so close to departure and especially as you have to fly to Europe.

I am wondering if you were on a special sailing for T.A's or on a special deal for T.A's whereby they could cancel you for someone who would be paying the full fare. I know that T.A's here do get special trips overseas so that they can pass on first hand information to their clients.

Otherwise, if it happened to us I would be causing such a fuss as we have so far to travel, air fares are not cheap and we would also have all our accommodation organized in Europe. I certainly would not be taking this lightly.

Good luck.

JennieI just asked a similar question. Even if she is on a TA rate, to cancel 3 days out is unbelievable. Normally when they once take your money you are assured the cruise. NMNita

[DesertDogs]

Beware.... not only do I have airline flights and hotel resrevations but Holland America who told me that
I could not sail in 4 days is now telling me that I cancelled and maybe I will get a refund but it may take a while.


I am confused.:confused: You stated that you cancelled and maybe will get a refund. Why did you cancel the reservation? Why didn't HAL cancel?

Did they select you because you are a TA on a special rate? Were you traveling as a single? If so, HAL probably wanted to book 2 passengers rather than one.

Sounds like a strange situation. I hope this is not a policy of HAL. I would hate to have my trip cancelled after waiting for 18 months!

[dakrewser]

Take a deep breathe step back and please give us all the excruciating details rather than dribs and drabs.

When did you book?
With whom?
Regular rate, TA rate or gratis?
What do your docs say?
And, yes, insurance covers a cruise line cancellation. I know that and I'm no TA.
Who called you?
What options were you given?

[kryos]

I was booked in the Noordam for Aug 9. Today Aug 4, I was notified that the ship was overbooked and I could get a refund or sail on Sept 18.
I have a flight booked for Aug 7. This is awful.

Was the entire ship chartered by some group? If not, I've never heard of a "forced" bumping. They may come to you with an incentive ... offering you a partial refund PLUS booking you on another similar cruise ... or some other such inducement to get you to "stand down" from the overbooked cruise. But I've never in my life heard of being bumped against your will.

On my cruise last January some people (myself included) were offered 90 days of the World cruise for the same price as the 30-day Hawaii/South Pacific itinerary they were to sail on. This was a great deal and some very lucky people were able to jump on it (sadly, I could not due to work commitments) and HAL was able to recoup the necessary cabins it needed for the Hawaii/South Pacific sailing. Everyone was happy, and that's the important thing. No one was "forced" to give up their booking ... not with a deal like that.

Are you working with a travel agent on this booking? If so, I suggest you get her involved ... because I have never in my life heard of such a thing as being involuntarily bumped from a cruise you had booked and paid for.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[thomasale]

Info incomplete. It is kinda like being fired vs. resigning.(your cancellation vs. the cruise line cancelling you) I think we are not getting the whole story here.

[qe2]

I booked this cruise in June at a travel agent rate ( not gratis) for the Noordam sailing August 9 from Rome. I had to submit a written application and wait 24 hours for my application to be accepted. I received a confirmation with in cat M with no cabin asignment.
I received my documents about 3 weeks ago. I went online and did my pre-cruise form and at that time, I had a cabin assignment.
At 5pm on Aug 4, I received a call from Holland America saying that the ship was overbooked and I had a choice of cancelling and getting a refund or sailing on September 18 at the same rate.
I could not re- schedule my airline tickets so I had to cancel. After I cancelled, I was told by the reservation agent that I was in full penalty, as if I had CHOSEN to cancel. After 15 minutes on hold , they finally told me that my money would be refunded in about 3 weeks.
I contaced my travel insurance company and they said that I can file a claim for my losses ( train tickets, airline penalties ) but they didn't think that it would be paid .
That's the whole story. This would not be such a problem except that they didn't notify me until 5pm Friday and I am scheduled to fly out on Monday morning. It doesn't leave much time for plan B. This can't be something that "just came up." They must have known when they accepted my reservation and charged my card that the ship was overbooked. They told me that they were canceling 10 reservations.
At this point, I hope to reschedule something this weekend so that I can leave on Monday. My husband has lost his enthusiasm .

[ocngypz]

TA's can be bumped if paying ta rates. HAL can also pull your reservation if you are not a producing agent. Yes, HAL does refund your fare in full. As for the plane and train tickets, I've never not had an insurance claim denied when the cruise was cancelled if I had insured the air/rail as well.

We as agents are the first to be bumped. That's the lay of the land as they say. Should they have bumped a passenger paying regular tariff instead?

[helenp2]

Excuse me for being skeptical, but they are a travel agent in Central Florida and call it Fort Canaveral???

TA's usually travel on a stand-by basis and like the airlines they are the first to be bumped. Was it a free ticket? A fam trip? An interline rate? There are different scenarios here. Also, very few TA's ever purchase insurance since they usually aren't paying for their trip. I know that Cunard is famous for bumping TA's while they are in line waiting to board, so this being a TA is not that surprising.

[Namvet4]

Perhaps a "legal mind" CC'er can review this and offer an opinion....

All Holland America Line cruises and cruisetours are sold subject to the terms and conditions in the Holland America Line Cruise and Cruisetour Contract that you will be issued prior to departure; a copy is available for review on this web site. Holland America Line policies and information that apply to every booking are also available for review on this web site.
http://www.hollandamerica.com/policies/onlineterms.do (http://www.hollandamerica.com/policies/onlineterms.do)


Cruise and cruisetour contract

HOLLAND AMERICA LINE
300 Elliott Avenue West
Seattle, WA 98119

ISSUED SUBJECT TO THE IMPORTANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS ON THIS PAGE AND THE FOLLOWING PAGES. READ TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAREFULLY.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PASSENGERS:

THIS DOCUMENT IS A LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT BETWEEN YOU AND US. THIS CONTRACT CONTAINS ALL TERMS OF OUR AGREEMENT AND SUPERCEDES ALL OTHER ORAL OR WRITTEN AGREEMENTS, COMMUNICATIONS OR REPRESENTATIONS. THE WORD "YOU" REFERS TO ALL PERSONS TRAVELING UNDER THIS CONTRACT INCLUDING THEIR HEIRS, SUCCESSORS IN INTEREST AND PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES. THE WORDS "WE" AND "US" REFER TO THE OWNER, HAL AND THE OTHER HAL COMPANIES, ALL OF WHICH ARE DESCRIBED IN CLAUSE A.1 BELOW. CERTAIN OTHER PERSONS AND ENTITIES, AS WELL AS THE SHIP ITSELF, ARE ALSO GRANTED RIGHTS UNDER THIS CONTRACT.

NOTICE: YOUR ATTENTION IS ESPECIALLY DIRECTED TO CLAUSES A.1, A.3, A.4, A.5, A.6, A.7, A.9 and C.4 BELOW, WHICH CONTAIN IMPORTANT LIMITATIONS ON YOUR RIGHT TO ASSERT CLAIMS AGAINST US AND CERTAIN THIRD PARTIES.

THIS CONTRACT ALSO INCLUDES THE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH HAL BOOKS AIR TRANSPORTATION IF YOU ARE PARTICIPATING IN HAL'S FLY CRUISE OR FLY CRUISE AND TOUR PROGRAM. IF ANY OF THESE CONDITIONS DO NOT MEET WITH YOUR APPROVAL, YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF ARRANGING AIR TRANSPORTATION INDEPENDENTLY IN WHICH EVENT THE AIR ADD-ON OR CRUISE ONLY CREDIT AMOUNT PAID TO HAL WILL BE REFUNDED.

ALL DISPUTES AND MATTERS WHATSOEVER ARISING UNDER, IN CONNECTION WITH OR INCIDENT TO THIS CONTRACT, THE CRUISE, THE CRUISETOUR, THE HAL LAND TRIP OR THE HAL AIR PACKAGE SHALL BE LITIGATED, IF AT ALL, IN AND BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON AT SEATTLE, OR, AS TO THOSE LAWSUITS AS TO WHICH THE FEDERAL COURTS OF THE UNITED STATES LACK SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION, IN THE COURTS OF KING COUNTY, STATE OF WASHINGTON, U.S.A., TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER COURTS.
http://www.hollandamerica.com/policies/cruise.do (http://www.hollandamerica.com/policies/cruise.do)

[Writeratsea]

I booked this cruise in June at a travel agent rate ( not gratis) for the Noordam sailing August 9 from Rome. I had to submit a written application and wait 24 hours for my application to be accepted. I received a confirmation with in cat M with no cabin asignment.
I received my documents about 3 weeks ago. I went online and did my pre-cruise form and at that time, I had a cabin assignment.
At 5pm on Aug 4, I received a call from Holland America saying that the ship was overbooked and I had a choice of cancelling and getting a refund or sailing on September 18 at the same rate.
I could not re- schedule my airline tickets so I had to cancel. After I cancelled, I was told by the reservation agent that I was in full penalty, as if I had CHOSEN to cancel. After 15 minutes on hold , they finally told me that my money would be refunded in about 3 weeks.
I contaced my travel insurance company and they said that I can file a claim for my losses ( train tickets, airline penalties ) but they didn't think that it would be paid .
That's the whole story. This would not be such a problem except that they didn't notify me until 5pm Friday and I am scheduled to fly out on Monday morning. It doesn't leave much time for plan B. This can't be something that "just came up." They must have known when they accepted my reservation and charged my card that the ship was overbooked. They told me that they were canceling 10 reservations.
At this point, I hope to reschedule something this weekend so that I can leave on Monday. My husband has lost his enthusiasm .
HAL only offered you two options. Couldn't you have said that this is unacceptable and tell HAL to come up with creative ideas. They didn't have other cruises nearby to switch you to? Or simply say that I have my documents, I will be on the dock ready to board and you better straighten out the problem. This situation was not of your creation, why do you have to accept the cancellation. I would have refused to accept the cancellation. Now that you have accepted the cancellation, I think your options are very limited and the cruiseline wins. I wonder how the other people who were canceled handled this.

[sail7seas]

Her being a TA traveling on a TA vastly reduced rate puts her into a totally different category than the full fare paying passenger. Had she purchased a ticket at the price we all pay, this would not have happened to her.

Other TA's here have said it is understood this can happen to TA who travel on the $25 pp (or something very low) rate. Usually they are lucky; sometimes their luck runs out. It is the cost of saving a great deal of money the rest of us pay.

Same as guaranty bookings. You pay less and you take a chance. That is the price of saving some money. Guaranty fare paying passengers would not be bumped in this manner but they may not get a cabin they would have specifically chosen.

I'm sorry this happened to you but I think you started this thread giving less than the full story. You got some folks worked up it could happen to them.......full fare paying pax. It wouldn't happen to them.

I hope you find a suitable substitute vacation and enjoy. I certainly understand you disappointment.

[Bramcruiser]

I very confused---must be missing something here. Please help me understand.
Why is it that you are deemed to have "cancelled" if HAL said "no sale/sail" on the original date and you couldn't accept the substitution offered.
Why are you saying there only two choices? Isn't there the choice of "No, I'm not changing my plans"?

I'm not doubting your story, but I don't feel I'm understanding the full picture. Please elaborate.

Ruth, what the OP is saying is almostly the same stunt that Oceania pulled about a month or so ago on two fellow cc'ers. The cruise line never really gave out a verbal choice of the passenger being allowed to keep the room (even though that option is there in my opinion) so made it sound like the only options were to cancel (and get refund) or change sailings. The OP has been strong armed in this particular situation and his cancellation was forced as far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, this was exactly what got Oceania the bad publicity and it took that line's CEO to intervene to restore the original reservations.

This isn't standard procedure Ruth and not like HAL or any other cruise line as I am concerned. Carnival has nothing to do with any of this. I think too many HAL people are stunned and not believing the OP simply because they just can't believe something like the OP has described can happen. Thankfully its rare but the Oceania stunt earlier proves that it sometimes does happen. When desperation for clearing up rooms at the last minute is mixed with inexperienced reservation agents who possess bullying tactics you get the mess the OP is in.

Unfortunately, I don't know the contracts or procedures well enough to say whether a TA rate is treated legally any different that a regular passenger rate and thus whether our OP is truly up a creek without a paddle. Our OP did volunteer that bit of info which might make the situation different from what went wrong with the Oceania passengers.

To those who quote the legal contracts. Yes, the cruise lines really do have the ability to cancel anyone for "whatever reasons". They usually do for changes of itineraries and weather or mechanical related issues. They rarely do for overbookings simply because they can get enough people to change sailings or cancel with nice incentives. I don't think the OP can legally win a case in court on this one but they can certainly win the public relations battle especially since the option of letting someone else change was never mentioned by the agents who called.

What happened here is indeed a rarity.

Now the OP might be without a means to fight this because of the TA situation but let this be a lesson to us full fare travellers wearing rose coloured glasses.

[Stevesan]

At 5pm on Aug 4, I received a call from Holland America saying that the ship was overbooked and I had a choice of cancelling and getting a refund or sailing on September 18 at the same rate.
I could not re- schedule my airline tickets so I had to cancel. After I cancelled, I was told by the reservation agent that I was in full penalty, as if I had CHOSEN to cancel. .

I don't understand why you would voluntarily cancel.

It seems very odd that HAL would ask you to cancel. I could understand if they threatened to cancel you if you didn't accept the reschedule.

What would have been the consequences if you had refused to cancel? The worst is HAL would then have to cancel you, thus leaving you in a better position regarding refunds and related insurance claims.

Isn't that the advise you'd have given a client in the same situation?

[newmexicoNita]

Was the entire ship chartered by some group? If not, I've never heard of a "forced" bumping. They may come to you with an incentive ... offering you a partial refund PLUS booking you on another similar cruise ... or some other such inducement to get you to "stand down" from the overbooked cruise. But I've never in my life heard of being bumped against your will.

On my cruise last January some people (myself included) were offered 90 days of the World cruise for the same price as the 30-day Hawaii/South Pacific itinerary they were to sail on. This was a great deal and some very lucky people were able to jump on it (sadly, I could not due to work commitments) and HAL was able to recoup the necessary cabins it needed for the Hawaii/South Pacific sailing. Everyone was happy, and that's the important thing. No one was "forced" to give up their booking ... not with a deal like that.

Are you working with a travel agent on this booking? If so, I suggest you get her involved ... because I have never in my life heard of such a thing as being involuntarily bumped from a cruise you had booked and paid for.

Blue skies ...

--ritaRita, I think the crux of this story is: Travel Agent. I still think it sucks, but from what she has said she was on a TA rate. This isn't free by any means but certainly a lower rate than the rake rates. Again, bumping anyone the last minute is totally uncalled for and yet, being a TA I do see what probably happened. She said earlier her docs even have a cabin number and nothing about space available only. You are right about no one ever being totally bumped; at least to my knowledge except one line that is no longer in business. They used to give what we call interline rates. These rates are for airline and some other industry people: they would offer the rate and yes, cancel them the last week. For this reason our agency stopped selling the line. It is the only time I have even not sold a product. They went under (a good line btw) came back and soon were under again. Of course this isn't going to happen to HAL. The sad thing, sure, if someone came along that was paying top rate up front HAL would have lost letting the OP keep her cabin, but think of the future business they just lost, especially if she is involved with a large agency. I do get the impression and I don't know why, she is an independent contractor and not a full time TA, but I could be wrong. Don't ask me where I got this, just reading between the lines. NMNita

[newmexicoNita]

TA's can be bumped if paying ta rates. HAL can also pull your reservation if you are not a producing agent. Yes, HAL does refund your fare in full. As for the plane and train tickets, I've never not had an insurance claim denied when the cruise was cancelled if I had insured the air/rail as well.

We as agents are the first to be bumped. That's the lay of the land as they say. Should they have bumped a passenger paying regular tariff instead?My last answer to rita says about the same thing> I still think it is a very bad move, but, I of course TAs and anyone on special rates are the first to be bumped. This is one reason I quite often choose not to bother with TA rates, as you know, we don't get the deals the public thinks we get, we quite often have to wait to book and this is something that can happen especially to a part time agent that produces little and I think that is what we have here. this still does not explain the late notification. Wouldn't you think HAL knew more the stiuation sooner.

For Helen, no we do not cruise on a stand by situation after being confirmed, nor do interliner cruise on stand by after conformation and docs. When airline employee fly that is different. I am both a TA and a mother of 2 airline employees, one has been employeed for 27 years, the other 18. I just wanted to clear that up. NMNita

[MercedMike]

Her being a TA traveling on a TA vastly reduced rate puts her into a totally different category than the full fare paying passenger....
I'm sorry this happened to you but I think you started this thread giving less than the full story. You got some folks worked up it could happen to them.......full fare paying pax. It wouldn't happen to them.



I agree with this totally. This is so typical of people who jump on the boards to trash a cruise company. We get a distorted version of the facts. I would think that an experienced TA would know better.

My DW is a MCC with a local Travel Agency, and she is fully aware of the problems with these "wonderful" TA deals. Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't.

Guess what -- if you go on the ship and drop a quarter in the slot machine, you might lose it too!

>:-)

[dakrewser]

QE2 - I'm guessing you haven't been a travel agent for very long, have you? It seems the experienced ones are all familiar with this scenario.

AS to you plane tickets, was that another low,low TA fare? Because, otherwise, I've never heard of any that couldn't be changed if you paid a small fee - and the difference in airfare.

[newmexicoNita]

QE2 - I'm guessing you haven't been a travel agent for very long, have you? It seems the experienced ones are all familiar with this scenario.

AS to you plane tickets, was that another low,low TA fare? Because, otherwise, I've never heard of any that couldn't be changed if you paid a small fee - and the difference in airfare.
Not only is she a relatively new agent I would guess but also new at posting. Check how many she had posted before this. Just a guess, but from my own experience she is a relatively new outside agent who who has gotten in the business for TA discounts. I am not taking a stand on this one way or the other as it is a whole different thread, but to those of you who are agents, whether full time, part time, working in a TA office or from home; what is the first thing you would have done? I would have run to my boss who then would have either said; 1-Nita you have not a leg to stand on or 2-let me call our sales rep and see what we can do. NMnita

[kryos]

Rita, I think the crux of this story is: Travel Agent.
Oh, okay. Now I understand. I didn't realize she was paying a reduced rate for the cruise. While I agree with you ... and it shouldn't happen ... now at least it's a bit more understandable.

I remember reading something a couple of years back ... some big shot cruise line executive was supposed to be on this particularly "special" sailing ... might have even been with HAL. Of course, he got his suite free (or close to it). A couple of weeks before the cruise was to sail, however, he got "bumped." Seems the boat was full and they were short of suites. "His" suite had to go to a paying passenger.

I know that on some "Cruise University" sailings marketed for travel agents, you will get a good rate, but if you booked as a solo in a cabin and the ship is sold out (hence, the people putting on the Cruise University can't get anymore cabins for additional people who'd like to go along), you will get a phone call a few days before sailing basically telling you that your single supplement is going to be refunded and you will have to now share your cabin with another agent (of the same sex, of course). If you don't like that, you can opt to cancel with no penalty and the group operator will just assign another person to share that cabin. I've also heard of cases where agents have been planning to share the cabin with a friend or family member (non-agent) and lost that person's slot due to high demand for the sailing and lots of agents who wanted on.

So, I guess it works differently for travel agents and maybe the cruise line is justified in bumping them if demand is such that they can sell that same cabin at full price.

But, other than a case such as this, I can't see a cruise line EVER bumping a fully paying passenger who has made final payment and secured a cabin ... regardless of how badly the cruise line overbooked the sailing. In such a case, they just have to keep "sweetening the pot" until they get enough people to voluntarily step down in order to have enough cabins available. Like I said, that's what HAL did on my Hawaii/South Pacific cruise this past January ... and that deal was soooooooo good that I was almost in tears that I couldn't take advantage of it.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[newmexicoNita]

Oh, okay. Now I understand. I didn't realize she was paying a reduced rate for the cruise. While I agree with you ... and it shouldn't happen ... now at least it's a bit more understandable.

I remember reading something a couple of years back ... some big shot cruise line executive was supposed to be on this particularly "special" sailing ... might have even been with HAL. Of course, he got his suite free (or close to it). A couple of weeks before the cruise was to sail, however, he got "bumped." Seems the boat was full and they were short of suites. "His" suite had to go to a paying passenger.

I know that on some "Cruise University" sailings marketed for travel agents, you will get a good rate, but if you booked as a solo in a cabin and the ship is sold out (hence, the people putting on the Cruise University can't get anymore cabins for additional people who'd like to go along), you will get a phone call a few days before sailing basically telling you that your single supplement is going to be refunded and you will have to now share your cabin with another agent (of the same sex, of course). If you don't like that, you can opt to cancel with no penalty and the group operator will just assign another person to share that cabin. I've also heard of cases where agents have been planning to share the cabin with a friend or family member (non-agent) and lost that person's slot due to high demand for the sailing and lots of agents who wanted on.

So, I guess it works differently for travel agents and maybe the cruise line is justified in bumping them if demand is such that they can sell that same cabin at full price.

But, other than a case such as this, I can't see a cruise line EVER bumping a fully paying passenger who has made final payment and secured a cabin ... regardless of how badly the cruise line overbooked the sailing. In such a case, they just have to keep "sweetening the pot" until they get enough people to voluntarily step down in order to have enough cabins available. Like I said, that's what HAL did on my Hawaii/South Pacific cruise this past January ... and that deal was soooooooo good that I was almost in tears that I couldn't take advantage of it.

Blue skies ...

--rita
rita, a did see it happen one time when they had paid and had a cabin, but it was still like 6 weeks from sailing, they were told they were totally bumped but given the option with a great incentive: I think they were offered the next cruise, just a week or so later with an upgrade and at a lower rate. It was either HAL or Princess, that much I remember. I saw it happen a couple other times as well, but certainly not a week or less from sailing. NMNita

[ocngypz]

Not only is she a relatively new agent I would guess but also new at posting. Check how many she had posted before this. Just a guess, but from my own experience she is a relatively new outside agent who who has gotten in the business for TA discounts. I am not taking a stand on this one way or the other as it is a whole different thread, but to those of you who are agents, whether full time, part time, working in a TA office or from home; what is the first thing you would have done? I would have run to my boss who then would have either said; 1-Nita you have not a leg to stand on or 2-let me call our sales rep and see what we can do. NMnita


LOL..I could just hear my sales manager now!!! Actually, it has happened to him, too. It happens to all of us. I would never have even considered a prime time European cruise on a ta rate.........because experience tells me that it "ain't gonna happen". You just know how it's going to be. Heck when I win free cabins, I have a hard enough time getting the cabin!

Experienced agents know, the least expensive way to cruise is via an invite to an onboard seminar.. and that is confirmed space.

Now.. as to overbooking. We get a fax from the cruiseline stating that the cruise is overbooked in cat N-I, and would any of my clients booked in those categories care to switch to such and such cruise, with an upgrade, obc.. or whatever. They do ask for volunteers first.

Unless you are traveling on published tariff rates, you are immediately preemptible.. this includes agents, interline and journalists.

[newmexicoNita]

LOL..I could just hear my sales manager now!!! Actually, it has happened to him, too. It happens to all of us. I would never have even considered a prime time European cruise on a ta rate.........because experience tells me that it "ain't gonna happen". You just know how it's going to be. Heck when I win free cabins, I have a hard enough time getting the cabin!

Experienced agents know, the least expensive way to cruise is via an invite to an onboard seminar.. and that is confirmed space.

Now.. as to overbooking. We get a fax from the cruiseline stating that the cruise is overbooked in cat N-I, and would any of my clients booked in those categories care to switch to such and such cruise, with an upgrade, obc.. or whatever. They do ask for volunteers first.

Unless you are traveling on published tariff rates, you are immediately preemptible.. this includes agents, interline and journalists.exactly; I am actually booked on an interline rate for the canal, last week of Nov/first Dec and am already worried a little. The cruise is still wide open, we have been flying space A as I mentioned for over 25 years and know how quick things can change. I wouldn't be concerned except we are with friends booked on a regular rate; would hate to see them have to cruise alone. NO, we are not flying space Available, we bought air tickets. It is just getting to hard anymore. Like you, I wouldn't think of trying a special rate during high season nor would I fly using passes. We have learned when you can and can't do this. As I said, we haven't heard anything back from her but still think she is a very part timer with no real ties and possibly new at the same time. If she is one that is in the business just for her discounts and yes, we know there are lots of them, I really don't have much sympathy; if she is just new, doesn't work for a major company and no one explained to her this could happen, I really feel sorry for her. NMNita

[BumperII]

Well, as the thread developed and more information came on line, the picture of this story certainly came into a different focus. While I really feel sorry for the folks it happened to, I am grateful to qe2 for sharing the experience.

We plan to do a lot of cruising, but since we are independently poor, we always book the cheap seats, guarentees. I had no idea one could get "bumped" but it stands to reason that the person who paid the least is the one they would let go first.

Anyway, thanks to qe2 and all who posted on this thread. A lot of valuable information came out here for those of us not in the business.

[RuthC]

Ruth, what the OP is saying is almostly the same stunt that Oceania pulled about a month or so ago on two fellow cc'ers.
Apparently, not quite. I'm just now getting back to the thread and a lot has developed. The OP purchased under very different rules than the rest of us do---rules that allow for this very event.
Now she's mad and doesn't want the rules to apply to her and comes on here trying to get cruisers in an uproar.
That's not fair to those of us who read the original post with an open mind.

And it's especially not fair to her clients who will be steered away from HAL for an unhappy event she agreed to in the first place. :rolleyes:

Thank you, ocngypz, for a succinct, clear explanation.

[Scrumpy]

At this point, it doesn't matter to me whether it is a TA rate or not. Bumping someone so very, very late in the game is simply not acceptable. They received virtually no notice - 72 or so hours is not much better than being bumped right at the dock. This is extremely disappointing, no matter how you slice it.

[newmexicoNita]

Well, as the thread developed and more information came on line, the picture of this story certainly came into a different focus. While I really feel sorry for the folks it happened to, I am grateful to qe2 for sharing the experience.

We plan to do a lot of cruising, but since we are independently poor, we always book the cheap seats, guarentees. I had no idea one could get "bumped" but it stands to reason that the person who paid the least is the one they would let go first.

Anyway, thanks to qe2 and all who posted on this thread. A lot of valuable information came out here for those of us not in the business.
you don't get bumped because you buy cheap seats or cheap cabins: you get bumped when you are on an industry type rate, that is very different. Don't worry, it will probably never happen to you. NMNita

[hammybee]

This entire posting is beyond silly. The OP paid a fraction of what might normally be paid for a cruise on a premium HAL ship, intinerary during prime time. The more seasoned TA's on this board seem to know the odds of boarding and get it. HAL is a business and they need to sell cabins to stay in business. If the ship is not at full capasity, it makes business sense for them to sell cabins at reduced rates to TAs just as it makes sense for them to pull such cabins when they can sell it at market price. This is similar to tenured airline employees who fly free and do so knowing they are the first to be bumped, should the need arise and they do not get any special compensation.

The OP is miserable ( for not beating the odds) and we all know, misery loves company.

[BumperII]

you don't get bumped because you buy cheap seats or cheap cabins: you get bumped when you are on an industry type rate, that is very different. Don't worry, it will probably never happen to you. NMNita

Well, that certainly has been our experience so far. The only bumping we've ever experienced is when they bumped us up a couple of categories. We have been delighted with the accomodations and service on every cruise. In fact, we've never taken a cruise where we didn't have a fantastic time.:)

We have waited for a life time to do this in retirement. I really like taking cruise vacations from retirement. :D

[qe2]

I need to clear up something. I am a full time agent. I have booked world cruises with Holland America and also have a designation as a specialist with them. The TA rates , although lower,are no way bargain basement fares that everyone imagines. In this case, the rate offered to the public was not much more than what I was paying.
i suspect that someone in revenue gets Kudos for having a fuly booked ship.They offer TA rates to assure that that will happen. Then if they get lucky and book the ship, they bump the TA's because they don't feel obligated to offer anything but a refund.
What will come back to bite them is that I no longer feel comfortable booking Holland America. I have several clients due for final payment and I will complete their bookings but sell Holland America... probably not. I need to have confidence that my clients will be taken care of.
BTW I booked a river cruise on the River Royal with Uniworld in place of my Holland America cruise. I'm leaving Monday.

[ocngypz]

I need to clear up something. I am a full time agent. I have booked world cruises with Holland America and also have a designation as a specialist with them. The TA rates , although lower,are no way bargain basement fares that everyone imagines. In this case, the rate offered to the public was not much more than what I was paying.
i suspect that someone in revenue gets Kudos for having a fuly booked ship.They offer TA rates to assure that that will happen. Then if they get lucky and book the ship, they bump the TA's because they don't feel obligated to offer anything but a refund.
What will come back to bite them is that I no longer feel comfortable booking Holland America. I have several clients due for final payment and I will complete their bookings but sell Holland America... probably not. I need to have confidence that my clients will be taken care of.
BTW I booked a river cruise on the River Royal with Uniworld in place of my Holland America cruise. I'm leaving Monday.


You are a full time agent and didn't know about HAL's policy on ta rates??? And you don't know how cruiselines handle overbooking situations??

And you booked Uniworld? Good luck. That's one line I do not book clients on!
Amadeus, yes. Viking, yes. Uniworld, no!

[twoatsea]

GE, I'm so glad you "saved" your travels! :) I bet the last couple of days have been horrible for you. Hope you have fun on your cruise. :D

I'm sure that right now you are upset with HAL; I would be. But hopefully, as you relax on your cruise, you will rethink what you said in your last post. I'm not saying it never happens, but I've never seen on this board or heard from anyone that HAL bumps non-TA passengers as you were bumped. And as reported on this thread, TA's accept their reservations knowing the possible consequences. Therefore, to not book your clients on HAL would be a disservice to them, and I am sure that you are a better TA than that.

Have fun, breathe deeply, try real hard to put this behind you, totally enjoy your trip, and maybe reconsider taking TA reservations unless you don't mind the possible canceling - hate for you to go thru this again! :(

[qe2]

I have booked TA rates with other lines even in prime time and have not been canceled. This is not the common occurance that has been represented. Sure, I can contact my rep. I'm sure that she would do something for me as a top agent with a big agency but since I was not notified until 5pm on Fri and my flights are on Monday morning, how can I contact her and what can she do at this late date?
If this had happened even a week ago, I would not be so outraged, but the problem is that Holland America waited until the very last minute to call me and then were rude to boot.
I have salvaged trips at the last minute for clients and have done so for myself. No, I am not flying free... no TA's fly free. I am flying on miles which I accumulated by charging groceries etc to my card. I had to pay $65 pp to change my flights, pluus 2 hrs on the phone but I am looking forward to a great vacation on my riverboat.

[Aussie Gal]

I booked this cruise in June at a travel agent rate ( not gratis) for the Noordam sailing August 9 from Rome. I had to submit a written application and wait 24 hours for my application to be accepted. I received a confirmation with in cat M with no cabin asignment.
I received my documents about 3 weeks ago. I went online and did my pre-cruise form and at that time, I had a cabin assignment.
At 5pm on Aug 4, I received a call from Holland America saying that the ship was overbooked and I had a choice of cancelling and getting a refund or sailing on September 18 at the same rate.
I could not re- schedule my airline tickets so I had to cancel. After I cancelled, I was told by the reservation agent that I was in full penalty, as if I had CHOSEN to cancel. After 15 minutes on hold , they finally told me that my money would be refunded in about 3 weeks.
I contaced my travel insurance company and they said that I can file a claim for my losses ( train tickets, airline penalties ) but they didn't think that it would be paid .
That's the whole story. This would not be such a problem except that they didn't notify me until 5pm Friday and I am scheduled to fly out on Monday morning. It doesn't leave much time for plan B. This can't be something that "just came up." They must have known when they accepted my reservation and charged my card that the ship was overbooked. They told me that they were canceling 10 reservations.
At this point, I hope to reschedule something this weekend so that I can leave on Monday. My husband has lost his enthusiasm .

I have been following this thread since the beginning and have been adding my various thoughts to the cancellation.

I have just come back to the Board after a couple of hours absence and am now confused because in this posting by the OP, she refers to cancelling her plane tickets but in her lastest post a short while ago, she reports that she is flying out on Monday to board a Uniworld cruise.

We have been given so many conflicting statements that I am finding it hard to come to terms with the whole episode.

Jennie

[newmexicoNita]

I need to clear up something. I am a full time agent. I have booked world cruises with Holland America and also have a designation as a specialist with them. The TA rates , although lower,are no way bargain basement fares that everyone imagines. In this case, the rate offered to the public was not much more than what I was paying.
i suspect that someone in revenue gets Kudos for having a fuly booked ship.They offer TA rates to assure that that will happen. Then if they get lucky and book the ship, they bump the TA's because they don't feel obligated to offer anything but a refund.
What will come back to bite them is that I no longer feel comfortable booking Holland America. I have several clients due for final payment and I will complete their bookings but sell Holland America... probably not. I need to have confidence that my clients will be taken care of.
BTW I booked a river cruise on the River Royal with Uniworld in place of my Holland America cruise. I'm leaving Monday.Gald you found something; I have many clients that love the river cruises: we have never taken one.; I don't want to knock your being a a HAL specialist, but I just qualified also as well as on most cruise lines. You know and so do the rest of us agents, this is simply reading a book and taking a short test. It has nothing to do with how much we book them. If you are a full time agent, working for a major TA company what did your manager say about this? AS for us not getting bargain basement rates, that is why I as well as many other agents do not book them. We know we could get bumped and the rates are not all that much lower, though they are in some cases. AS for not selling them, that I understand as you should have been notified a long time ago. As for getting bumped, that is the price we pay for the price we get. NMNita

[newmexicoNita]

You are a full time agent and didn't know about HAL's policy on ta rates??? And you don't know how cruiselines handle overbooking situations??

And you booked Uniworld? Good luck. That's one line I do not book clients on!
Amadeus, yes. Viking, yes. Uniworld, no!
Actually I have had many client who loved Uniworld; more for the intineraries than anything else. As for being a full time agent, I too am wondering what is the whole story about her employment. I am not calling her a liar, but still think there is something missing here.NMNita

[newmexicoNita]

I have booked TA rates with other lines even in prime time and have not been canceled. This is not the common occurance that has been represented. Sure, I can contact my rep. I'm sure that she would do something for me as a top agent with a big agency but since I was not notified until 5pm on Fri and my flights are on Monday morning, how can I contact her and what can she do at this late date?
If this had happened even a week ago, I would not be so outraged, but the problem is that Holland America waited until the very last minute to call me and then were rude to boot.
I have salvaged trips at the last minute for clients and have done so for myself. No, I am not flying free... no TA's fly free. I am flying on miles which I accumulated by charging groceries etc to my card. I had to pay $65 pp to change my flights, pluus 2 hrs on the phone but I am looking forward to a great vacation on my riverboat.You are a top agent, with a major company and you never fly free. When I worked for a independant company in the Dallas area we got a couple of passe on major airline yearly and they were not even stand by. There is something here that just doesn't jell, but I am still glad you found something to make you happy and know the river sailing will be totally different and very enjoyable. NMNita

[AirGorilla]

I am in agreement with the handful of posters who believe that waiting until 5:00 pm on 8/4 to inform qe2 that she was being "booted" off the 8/9 cruise is totally ridiculous. Especially considering that qe2 lives from Central Florida, and the cruise departs from an Italian port.

The fact that qe2 was on a travel agent reduced fare doesn't change the above. The late notice stinks!!

[Pudgesmom]

As the wife of an 19 year airline employee, this doesn't add up for me, either.

We learned a long time ago that you get what you pay for. We have been bumped many many times off our own airline for paying passengers, and been glad to get off. Its just part of the "perk."

Now, when we REALLY want to get there, or it is a busy travel season, we BUY a ticket and become part of the general public.

I think this situation is similar. This poster knew, or should have known, about the conditions affecting her ticket. If she was unwilling to accept those conditions, she could have paid slightly more to get "positive space."

Now, her gamble didn't work out, and she's whining here about losing out on her cruise. Sorry, no sympathy here.

Beth

[Writeratsea]

LOL..I could just hear my sales manager now!!! Actually, it has happened to him, too. It happens to all of us. I would never have even considered a prime time European cruise on a ta rate.........because experience tells me that it "ain't gonna happen". You just know how it's going to be. Heck when I win free cabins, I have a hard enough time getting the cabin!

Experienced agents know, the least expensive way to cruise is via an invite to an onboard seminar.. and that is confirmed space.

Now.. as to overbooking. We get a fax from the cruiseline stating that the cruise is overbooked in cat N-I, and would any of my clients booked in those categories care to switch to such and such cruise, with an upgrade, obc.. or whatever. They do ask for volunteers first.

Unless you are traveling on published tariff rates, you are immediately preemptible.. this includes agents, interline and journalists.
These are very good points. I don't use any trade discounts, I book as a regular passenger. It just is less hassle and I like to fly under the radar so to speak. When I am on vacation, I want to be on vacation. We have all taken enough FAM trips to realize what the deal is with them. You get the cheapest, local air carriers, sometimes get decent hotels, off season itineraries, have to fight for the food and excursions you were promised, etc. So why bother. And if you are honest, it is supposed to be a working vacation where you are there to familiarize yourself with the destination, facilities and the things to see. This is to reciprocate and sell the destination to your clients. But even knowing you could get shortchanged when you travel as a TA, common curtesty should prevail. Just because you are a TA or industry insider doesn't mean you should be treated with such disrespect or distain. How can I respect HAL as a cruiseline that honors its commitments and bookings regardless the passenger is a full fare paying or a discount traveler. Since the cruise is originating in Rome, obviously there are airline tickets involved as the OP is from Florida. Not to mention that the cancellation situation comes on a Friday afternoon when you on Vacation in a matter of hours. As the OP stated, not a lot of room for Plan B.It is not the money that is the problem, it is the limited vacation time I have and it is specific. I think everyone is missing the point. If there was a problem with overbooking at such a late date prior to sailing, why couldn't HAL be reasonable and try to work something out.I think HAL handled this very poorly and unprfessionally. Just to take QE2 and dump him into the trash is inexcusable and has accomplished the negative publicity that anyone who is treated unfairly would also raised. I would be mad too. I do wish that all the important information had been revealed upfront in the original post as it would have avoided all the speculation that naturally occured. Bottom line: I agree that prime time probably won't happen, but if you accept my money and give me documents, you better honor your commitment. The cruise line expects you to honor your commitments, hence the cancellation penalties. It should be a two way street. Are you a valued passenger who is potential repeat business or are you expendable with little regard for your value.

[KAYEF]

These CC boards are such a wonderful forum for learning, getting travel hints, meeting people, etc.:)
It's too bad that someone who is "new" to the boards came on to badmouth HAL..................I know all the "facts" came out later, three pages later, but that won't help people just beginning to learn on here. If someone comes on, sees the red hand, and reads just a bit.........they will have untrue information.
Thanks to those of you who knew the right questions to ask to get the true information.
Waiting so late to bump wasn't a good thing to do; we all understand how awful that would be (right now, I'm 12 days out and have no documents............ that has me concerned!!:o ) but, to be fair, we also know HAL is our preferred line and we KNOW why!! I'm sad that this person will no longer recommend HAL..............glad I'm not her (his?) client!!;)

[newmexicoNita]

I am in agreement with the handful of posters who believe that waiting until 5:00 pm on 8/4 to inform qe2 that she was being "booted" off the 8/9 cruise is totally ridiculous. Especially considering that qe2 lives from Central Florida, and the cruise departs from an Italian port.

The fact that qe2 was on a travel agent reduced fare doesn't change the above. The late notice stinks!!
this is the one part I totally agree with and I am not sure I understand why it took them so long. Other than that, reading her entire story I have to question a few things. She barely mentions being an agent in her first posting, but then more and more she comes back with this. Again, those of us who are agents have to question a little what is missing from her story. Again, bumping her, no matter who she was 5 days out sucks but as Pudgesmom said, we all know what can happen and the OP admitted she didn't get that great of a deal. Unless you are going to save a fortune you just don't take these chances during high season. NMNnita

[Scrumpy]

I am in agreement with the handful of posters who believe that waiting until 5:00 pm on 8/4 to inform qe2 that she was being "booted" off the 8/9 cruise is totally ridiculous. Especially considering that qe2 lives from Central Florida, and the cruise departs from an Italian port.

The fact that qe2 was on a travel agent reduced fare doesn't change the above. The late notice stinks!!

I agree, but we seem to be the minority. I can't understand not having some sympathy for the late notice alone. That is what baffles me. Sure, someone got a discounted rate, but how can that possibly excuse the incredibly late notification? Discounting anything else the OP said, I am still NOT very happy this happened to her/him or that it would ever happen to anyone, regardless of what their cruise cost. You'd think there'd be an absolute minimum standard that would ensure a person would have more advance notice. Oh well...

[Scrumpy]

Just an aside - being new to the boards doesn't necessarily lessen someone's credibility, at least not for me. Call me gullible; that's fine. I'd rather be gullible and empathetic than the alternative and I'd rather err on the side of being nice. Considering how badly some newcomers are treated, I don't imagine some of them will ever have the incredibly high post count of some other posters because folks will run them off before they get there. Sure, there are trolls out there or the perpetually dissatisfied, but assuming every new person with an issue is one of those is neither fair nor kind. I do personally feel badly for anyone who has had what they feel is an unpleasant or unfair experience, especially in a situation when they get both the lousy experience and the (predictable) unkind comments from other posters. Someone has had a poor experience; is it really necessarily to pour salt in the wounds? For some, the answer appears to be 'yes'. Why?

[Bramcruiser]

I have to apologize here and NOT to the OP. I want to apologize to those who questioned everything in the first place. I was fully on the OP's side thinking it was a horrible repeat of the Oceania incident where two passengers (fully paying) were bumped under strong armed tactics. Now I am finding out that our OP is a travel agent and booked an agent's rate. Discounted or not I am learning that a TA fare is similar to an airline's standby fare. The reality is - of course, you will be the first to be knocked off in lieu of full fare passengers as you only get to board if there is any space left. That's just the way it works. The TA fare, like airline's standby fares, are a lower priority and the TA should have known this. So why are we - the general public - being made pawns in this battle between the TA and the cruise line?

I feel used and need a shower. Anyone care to join me? (OOOPS! Did I say that out loud. he he he)

[RuthC]

Someone has had a poor experience; is it really necessarily to pour salt in the wounds? For some, the answer appears to be 'yes'. Why?
Speaking for myself only, I'll explain the "why". It's because the OP held back on the truth in the first place. That's what took away her credibility.
Had she explained in the first post that she booked under different rules---rules that allow for this very cancellation---this thread would have unravelled differently. But she didn't. The story was pulled out of her in dribs and drabs---making me doubt that she would have revealed the story had she not been challenged on the "facts".

Tell me your sad tale with an admission of your own responsibility in the matter and I can be sympathetic. Treat me like a gullible fool and I won't.
It's a matter of trust. I can't trust what qe2 says.

[newmexicoNita]

Just an aside - being new to the boards doesn't necessarily lessen someone's credibility, at least not for me. Call me gullible; that's fine. I'd rather be gullible and empathetic than the alternative and I'd rather err on the side of being nice. Considering how badly some newcomers are treated, I don't imagine some of them will ever have the incredibly high post count of some other posters because folks will run them off before they get there. Sure, there are trolls out there or the perpetually dissatisfied, but assuming every new person with an issue is one of those is neither fair nor kind. I do personally feel badly for anyone who has had what they feel is an unpleasant or unfair experience, especially in a situation when they get both the lousy experience and the (predictable) unkind comments from other posters. Someone has had a poor experience; is it really necessarily to pour salt in the wounds? For some, the answer appears to be 'yes'. Why?
I think many of us feel sorry for anyone, for any reason that gets bumped so late and most of us have said that. As for the rest, as a TA, who just happened to wander on to this post and tell just the beginning of the story til she gets our attention and then tells more, I for one have to doubt how honest she really is. Also, we all know and if she does too that this is the nature of the game. I guess only those of us who are agents or involved in the travel industry can fully understand. When I worked for a major hotel chain, I got to the hotel at 9:30pm, we had been flying all day, the hotel was sold out and no, they couldn't give us any room even if we paid. I had my conformation with me, the guy was very nice, but he couldn't do a thing. We ended up driving about an hour to another area where we spend the night at a motel. I wasn't the least bit upset: shocked yes, upset no. I fully understood. NMnita ps; and to you Braumcruiser, I will join you, but think I will have a drink instead of a shower.

[Scrumpy]

In a perfect world, a person's initial post would have all relevant info and would be presented in a logical manner. However, many posts are written on the fly or in the heat of the moment, and our minds do not always operate logically under those circumstances. Details that we forget to fully explain may be pertinent, but that doesn't mean we are purposely lying by omission. It just means they didn't immediately come to mind when we post something. We know our own situations and sometimes don't even think about the fact that others are completely ignorant of them. When we talk to our friends or family, we speak differently than we do to strangers - we don't have to explain everything. While I certainly wish all the facts had been posted at the beginning, I can understand why they might not have been without having to believe that someone is being deceptive. But, that's just me. I also am aware that while some have great written skills, it is a chore for others to try to express themselves and their accounts of things tend to be muddled - and the same person can be clear as a bell in one post, then write another that is nearly impossible to decipher. You can ask a question point-blank and get a response that is completely off-topic and meandering, so that you have no idea if there's an answer in there or not. This can be achieved in a 2-sentence post, btw. Most of the longer ones tend to make sense.

I guess ya'll better characterize me as a "gullible fool", although I wouldn't characterize myself that way. This situation has cost me nothing, after all. It hasn't really hurt me in any way. I simply feel sorry that anyone would end up with a last-minute cancellation and know that if I were in their shoes, I would feel a lot of emotions and none of them pleasant. I also might not have been thinking about anything other than the lateness of the cancellation and might not have expressed all the facts clearly. It's a cynical crowd around here sometimes. I tend to be an honest and trusting person, so accusations of deception don't sit well with me - even when they are not directed at me. I also have some memory impairment and give people the benefit of the doubt when they neglect to mention something. I often do it myself and would find it intolerable if folks accused me of purposely lying about things when I've merely forgotten a detail. Perhaps I'm simply coming from a different place than a lot of ya'll. I get that a lot. Ya know - in my own little world, but that's okay; they know me here ;)

[newmexicoNita]

In a perfect world, a person's initial post would have all relevant info and would be presented in a logical manner. However, many posts are written on the fly or in the heat of the moment, and our minds do not always operate logically under those circumstances. Details that we forget to fully explain may be pertinent, but that doesn't mean we are purposely lying by omission. It just means they didn't immediately come to mind when we post something. We know our own situations and sometimes don't even think about the fact that others are completely ignorant of them. When we talk to our friends or family, we speak differently than we do to strangers - we don't have to explain everything. While I certainly wish all the facts had been posted at the beginning, I can understand why they might not have been without having to believe that someone is being deceptive. But, that's just me. I also am aware that while some have great written skills, it is a chore for others to try to express themselves and their accounts of things tend to be muddled - and the same person can be clear as a bell in one post, then write another that is nearly impossible to decipher. You can ask a question point-blank and get a response that is completely off-topic and meandering, so that you have no idea if there's an answer in there or not. This can be achieved in a 2-sentence post, btw. Most of the longer ones tend to make sense.

I guess ya'll better characterize me as a "gullible fool", although I wouldn't characterize myself that way. This situation has cost me nothing, after all. It hasn't really hurt me in any way. I simply feel sorry that anyone would end up with a last-minute cancellation and know that if I were in their shoes, I would feel a lot of emotions and none of them pleasant. I also might not have been thinking about anything other than the lateness of the cancellation and might not have expressed all the facts clearly. It's a cynical crowd around here sometimes. I tend to be an honest and trusting person, so accusations of deception don't sit well with me - even when they are not directed at me. I also have some memory impairment and give people the benefit of the doubt when they neglect to mention something. I often do it myself and would find it intolerable if folks accused me of purposely lying about things when I've merely forgotten a detail. Perhaps I'm simply coming from a different place than a lot of ya'll. I get that a lot. Ya know - in my own little world, but that's okay; they know me here ;)I don't think anyone would call you a fool, gullible yes, very gullible,but stupid no or a fool no. It does boil down to how many of us, me included were raging mad when the OP posted. Like others, even though I am agent I felt sorry for her, couldn't understand how this could happen and now I feel like I was taken.. She did not forget the details, she choose to tell only her side til she got pinned down. Many things I questioned but when she suddenly decided she had booked world cruises on HAL, which could be true and was a deginated HAL specialist I thought about the entire story. Each line, by taking a few short classes on line or reading workbooks and taking open book test will certify you. Each line calls the certification something different, HAL does not call those who complete the classes or classes specialists. When I saw this, after everything else I had to conclude she is either a total phoney or certainly not being up front. More power to you for being so trusting, there are just some of us who see through what she said. This doesn't mean we are bad, not trusting or callis, but we do question some things. I am sure those like the OP love to have people like you in their corner. I will be anxious to see if we hear from her again. NMNita

[refman]

she knew the rules when she booked and still took the chance. if the trip was that important she would of booked earlier and paid normal rates,to bad!! no sympathy cause i`m glad to see someone get a taste of their own medicine so stop whining.

[Scrumpy]

I don't think anyone would call you a fool, gullible yes, very gullible,but stupid no or a fool no. It does boil down to how many of us, me included were raging mad when the OP posted. Like others, even though I am agent I felt sorry for her, couldn't understand how this could happen and now I feel like I was taken.. She did not forget the details, she choose to tell only her side til she got pinned down. Many things I questioned but when she suddenly decided she had booked world cruises on HAL, which could be true and was a deginated HAL specialist I thought about the entire story. Each line, by taking a few short classes on line or reading workbooks and taking open book test will certify you. Each line calls the certification something different, HAL does not call those who complete the classes or classes specialists. When I saw this, after everything else I had to conclude she is either a total phoney or certainly not being up front. More power to you for being so trusting, there are just some of us who see through what she said. This doesn't mean we are bad, not trusting or callis, but we do question some things. I am sure those like the OP love to have people like you in their corner. I will be anxious to see if we hear from her again. NMNita

I'd love to know how you can read minds and know someone's intent. You could make a lot of money teaching that skill. You may or may not be seeing through something; people do a lot of assuming around here - and it's more luck than anything else when someone is right about who is stirring the pot and who isn't. Lots of innocent posters have been pegged as troublemakers in error.

I seriously doubt we'll hear from the OP again - and certainly not for a long time since the trip starts tomorrow. As for what folks think of "people like me", well most of them think I'm pretty nice and they appreciate that I try not to make snap judgments, especially those that cast others in a negative light. I'd be in anyone's corner who got bumped at the last minute regardless of the cost of the trip and even if I didn't particularly like them.

[Scrumpy]

she knew the rules when she booked and still took the chance. if the trip was that important she would of booked earlier and paid normal rates,to bad!! no sympathy cause i`m glad to see someone get a taste of their own medicine so stop whining.

A taste of their own medicine? That's a leap. Let's see - a disappointed individual with a gripe against a large corporation gets skepticism and scathing remarks from people who seem to get enjoyment from seeing her lose her vacation at the eleventh hour - because she didn't recite chapter and verse about the rules under which she booked. I'm sorry you are glad this happened. That's a pity.

[DD]

I don't want to knock your being a a HAL specialist, but I just qualified also as well as on most cruise lines. You know and so do the rest of us agents, this is simply reading a book and taking a short test. It has nothing to do with how much we book them. NMNita

Hi Nita :) Have you done the HAL certification? It's not like some of the other cruiseline certifications. It's one of the best out there. It's quite in-depth and involves a number of exams. It's one of the certifications that actually takes an investment of time and expertise.

[DD]

At this point, it doesn't matter to me whether it is a TA rate or not. Bumping someone so very, very late in the game is simply not acceptable. They received virtually no notice - 72 or so hours is not much better than being bumped right at the dock. This is extremely disappointing, no matter how you slice it.

It IS acceptable because it's made very clear to us upfront that we can be bumped. Many ta's never travel this way for this very reason. Personally, I'd much rather pay retail and know that my vacation is confirmed.

I feel badly for the OP as I know I'd be disappointed in her shoes. But to imply that HAL did anything incorrect or unfair is wrong. Space available rates are exactly that; they are not guaranteed and the cruiseline makes no secret of it.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I guess the first thing I should say is that I am sorry to hear that QE2 (my favorite ship by the way) was bumped from his or her cruise. It is never nice to hear that this has happened.

Nonetheless, a travel agent should know that when on a travel agent fare, the risk of bumping is higher than usual, and take this into account when booking one of these fares.

It does not matter if you have an assigned cabin or not; a travel agent with an assigned cabin is still a lower priority than a "normal" passenger with a guarantee. If they bump someone, they are going to bump the travel agent and give that assignment cabin to the guarantee passenger.

I should note at this point that legally, cruise lines are within their rights if they bump passengers. Just about every cruise line's passage contract includes a clause that overbooking may occur and that passengers may be bumped. All the cruise line has to do, legally, is refund your fare. That's it.

Of course, all cruise lines try to avoid bumping passengers. The last thing they want is dissatisfied customers. Nonetheless, most cruise lines overbook. This is based on the same principle as overbooking in airlines, hotels, and so on. Basically, it is statistically shown that on average, a certain number of people will be "no shows". If the line only sold the amount of capacity the ship actually has, the ship would never be full, as there would always be people who do not show up. So, they use their elaborate computer models to predict just how many passengers are likely to show up on a given cruise, and then they oversell the cruise by that amount. The good news is that this translates into lower fares. The bad news is, sometimes the computers get it wrong, and not enough people cancel. So, the cruise line will call passengers and offer to give them an incentive to change to another departure. But still, sometimes not enough people take these incentives. At this point, the cruise line will have to "bump" some passengers - that is, deny them passage.

Now, under the terms of the passage contract, the cruise line can bump anyone, but they would rather bump some passengers than other passengers. Passengers who are travelling on an agent fare, an interline fare, or similar discounts not available to the public are first in line to be bumped, since they are basically deemed less important to the cruise line than other passengers. Generally, most people who book these fares are well aware of the nuances of using them and that if the cruise line needs to bump someone, they're going to be it. It is even more prudent than usual to take out insurance on fares like this, including airfare and other related costs, because the risk of bumping is higher.

Now, I am still sorry that QE2 got bumped, but as a travel agent I cannot help but think that he or she should have been aware that this is not especially out-of-the-ordinary for people travelling on special fares. This is the risk of travelling on a fare like this. Some here have equated it to standby air travel but this is not exactly true; a fare like the one QE2 booked is higher up on the pecking order than a standby or "space available" fare but still lower than passengers paying the normal published tariff.

While I'm sure we can all sympathize with QE2, I would suggest that perhaps we look at this from the cruise line's point of view:

Let's say that I work for a large corporation, General Widget. General Widget is one of the world's largest widget manufacturers. (A widget is a hypothetical product economists talk about. Later, it also became a nifty kind of application that lives on the Dashboard in Mac OS X. I mean the imaginary economic widget, not the kind of widget that tells me what time it is in Paris or what 11 metres is in feet.) Here at General Widget, we have a production capacity of 1,000 widgets per month. However, as the Director of Yield Management and Revenue Optimization for General Widget, I have analyzed years' worth of data using a sophisticated computer and have been able to predict that each month, about 100 people place an order for a widget but cancel that order before the order is fulfilled.

Each time someone orders a widget, that customer receives a specific number on the production line for a specific month in the future. For example, the customer might assigned line number 532 in August 2006. When the 1,000 slots run out, we begin to sell "widget guarantees". Guarantee customers do not receive a specific line number, but rather are merely guaranteed that a widget will be delivered to them within the month they requested. As customers with specific line numbers cancel, guarantee customers will be assigned the line numbers that are vacated.

I have also found that our profit can be maximized by offering certain groups special incentive prices for widgets. Normally a widget costs $100, but if you are a widget distributor, an employee or family member of an employee of General Widget or a company in the widget-related industry, or a journalist who covers widgets and the widget industry, you can buy a widget for the special incentive price of only $75.

This month, we have an unusually low number of cancellations. Instead of the usual 100 people, only 75 people cancel widget orders, leaving us with 1,025 orders to fulfill but only 1,000 production line slots.

Naturally, since we can only produce 1,000 widgets, we are going to have to cut the number of widgets delivered this month by 25. As Director of Yield Management and Revenue Optimzation, my first order of business is to contact all of our customers explaining that this month has been oversold and offering them a $10 discount if they are willing to postpone the delivery of their new widget to a month in the future. 10 customers accept this offer, leaving me with 1,015 customers. Of these, 1,000 are regular customers, while 15 are using incentive rates.

Now, I must make a decision: how do I decide which 15 customers' orders I should involuntarily cancel and refund? The answer is obvious: I should cancel the orders of the 15 customers receiving special discounts, and deliver the widgets of the remaining 1,000 customers. Some of the 15 "special" customers do have assigned line numbers, however, I will cancel their orders in order to open up these line numbers, and will then assign those line numbers to regular customers who purchased their widgets on a guarantee basis. Because I would rather upset the "special" customers who received discounts than my full-price-paying customers, this is the obvious course of action.

The only difference between the above situation and the one that resulted in QE2 being bumped is that we are dealing with cruises, not widgets. Of course, it is unfortunate to hear that anyone has been bumped, but a travel agent ought to know that sometimes this happens, and that passengers travelling on agent fares or other similar discounted fares will be the first to get bumped. I am, as I said, sorry to hear about this but I am glad that QE2 has been able to find a replacement cruise and I hope there is something that he or she, as well as other travel agents and people who might travel on "special" fares, can learn from this unfortunate situation.

[alwayscoldmom]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A". If so then I learned something really important from this post that I might have had to learn the hard way:eek:

[Ine]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A". If so then I learned something really important from this post that I might have had to learn the hard way:eek:

Check with your airline. Each airline has his own rules and it also depends on seniority/rank etc.
In principle, yes, you can be bumped as of course full paying passengers get priority. The airline is supposed to make money....

I have seen employees taken off the plane shortly before departures..

[Aussie Gal]

Doug,

Thanks for you wonderful explanation. When QE2 first posted, I did query about her being a TA as I know here at home the TA's do receive special benefits but she wasn't so forthcoming in the first few posts so we weren't really sure what was going on.

I feel for her as I would hate to have to rethink a vacation at short notice, but as you say, that is one of the downsides of getting a special deal and when one goes ahead and accepts the special rates, then one has to be prepared for a cancellation if the ship is overbooked.

Unfortunately she chose the wrong time. A couple of weeks later and she would have been able to cruise as HAL pointed out, but of course, August is the most popular month in Europe for holidaying and therefore the scarcity of cabins.

Jennie

[kimmeesook]

she knew the rules when she booked and still took the chance. if the trip was that important she would of booked earlier and paid normal rates,to bad!! no sympathy cause i`m glad to see someone get a taste of their own medicine so stop whining.wow. clearly this response speaks more about you than it does the op.

[alwayscoldmom]

Ine-Thanks for your reply. I was talking about an interline cruise rate not about one for an airplane. I was/am fully aware about how easy it is to be pulled off an airplane at the last minute. I was blissfully unaware that in principal the same thing could happen to cruises that we booked with an interline discount. Now I know! And at least I won't be caught unaware.

Thanks Host Doug for your thoughtful post. I found it really helpful.

[newmexicoNita]

I'd love to know how you can read minds and know someone's intent. You could make a lot of money teaching that skill. You may or may not be seeing through something; people do a lot of assuming around here - and it's more luck than anything else when someone is right about who is stirring the pot and who isn't. Lots of innocent posters have been pegged as troublemakers in error.

I seriously doubt we'll hear from the OP again - and certainly not for a long time since the trip starts tomorrow. As for what folks think of "people like me", well most of them think I'm pretty nice and they appreciate that I try not to make snap judgments, especially those that cast others in a negative light. I'd be in anyone's corner who got bumped at the last minute regardless of the cost of the trip and even if I didn't particularly like them.And if you read what I said, I think you are pretty nice too; that doesn't change my mind or others about the OP. What is it you don't understand: this is the way the game works when you are on an industry rate: she knew that or certainly should. Of course getting bumped so late sucks, but as agents we realize this can happen. For her to blame HAL just shouldn't happen. I am cruising HAL in Novemeber. I am on an industry rate (not a TA rate) I know what can happen. My biggest fear is we are traveling with friends and they are paying full fare. I do not expect to be bumped, it is the slow season, but I know it can happen. I didn't mean to insult you in anyway: you said you are gullible, I did agree, but I also admire your sticking by OP. NMnnita

[newmexicoNita]

Hi Nita :) Have you done the HAL certification? It's not like some of the other cruiseline certifications. It's one of the best out there. It's quite in-depth and involves a number of exams. It's one of the certifications that actually takes an investment of time and expertise.I am doing it now: I know what you mean but I have done a couple others lately that were fairly involved. I wish all agents would take part in these ongoing training programs and yet even this one isn't like taking a college class or attending a week long siminar. NMNita

[newmexicoNita]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A". If so then I learned something really important from this post that I might have had to learn the hard way:eek:
It can happen, but I would be willing to bet it doesn't happen more than a couple times a year. As a TA I have only seen ships overbooked a couple of times in years and the offers are so good it isn't hard to get people to change their plans. We too fly and sail on interline rates. I prefer them to TA rates and have daughters who work for the airlines. So to answer your question yes, but I wouldn't even think about it; not going to happen. This was a very unusual situation. NMNita

[Live4cruises]

Host Doug,

Thank you for your calm and reasonable explanation. It's too bad that OP started out flaming and it took so much prodding to get "the rest of the story".

[dougnewmanatsea]

I have a quick question. My husband is an airline employee and can book at interline rates. Does that mean by doing so we are subjected to be bumped? I didn't realize that this was like flying on a pass or "space A".
Not exactly.

As I posted above, any passenger is possibly subjected to being bumped. However, if someone has to be bumped, they are more likely to do it to you on an interline rate than to someone who is paying full fare.

Flying on a pass is different - you wait until the flight closes and then, if there's an empty seat, they give you one. Booking a cruise on an interline rate, you will be "confirmed", but if the cruise is overbooked, you'll be high on the list of people to bump.

In theory, if the cruise was very severly overbooked, they would first bump all the people on interline, travel agent and other such fares, and then start bumping "regular" passengers.

[Writeratsea]

Not exactly.

As I posted above, any passenger is possibly subjected to being bumped. However, if someone has to be bumped, they are more likely to do it to you on an interline rate than to someone who is paying full fare.

Flying on a pass is different - you wait until the flight closes and then, if there's an empty seat, they give you one. Booking a cruise on an interline rate, you will be "confirmed", but if the cruise is overbooked, you'll be high on the list of people to bump.

In theory, if the cruise was very severly overbooked, they would first bump all the people on interline, travel agent and other such fares, and then start bumping "regular" passengers.
This thread has become so convoluted that I had to go back and reread all the posts. My initial impression when I read the original post was outrage for two reasons. One that HAL cancelled at 5 PM on Friday when she was due to sail on Monday. Two that after she accepted the cancellation, she was in penalty and not going to get a refund. Certainly emotions were running high in the early posts. Then we slowly were told more important details of the story, prompted by sharp questions. It has become obvious that QE2 took a calculated gamble. She booked past the final payment deadline and booked a discounted rate guarantee. This seems like a good gamble and it appeared to have paid off when she received her documents including a stateroom number. Based on this, she could now book the air and train portions to complete the itinerary. Then it all fell apart. In hindsight, she could have booked a regular rate for a specific cabin and probably would have gotten quoted a good price. What is missing is we don't know how much space was left open when she first started this whole process. That is a critical piece of information. If there were only 3 cabins open when she started then it really would have been a gamble with a small chance of success. If there were a lot of open cabins, then there would have been a reasonable chance of success. In planning a trip of this kind, experienced travel agents look at the overall booking picture before advising whether to risk a guarantee or outright specific booking. It is necessary to know the booking situation when she first initiated her personal reservation. I can see how some people have felt misled by the absence of information early on. But she is getting her refund and she is going on an alternative trip and hopefully she will get reimbursed for her plane and hotel costs. It is just disapointing that HAL cancelled at such a late time. Could that have been avoided with more advance notice or more alternatives for her. Obviously this experience with HAL has left a bad taste only in her mouth and she would be reluctant to reccommend HAL in the future. After all these posts and comments, I am not sure if I am clearer in understanding the whole situation. Should we blame her, HAL or the whole overbooking process. As NewMexicoNita suggests this was a unique situation that does not apply to 99.9% of the cruisers. This was a cruise in high season, at a popular destination and booked at a TA discounted rate with a guarantee. A combination of factors which predictably resulted in a very small chance of succeeding. The original post was a little bit misleading with words like "beware" and not getting a refund even though she was cancelled through no fault of her own. I would have been happier if she simply stated that she was disapointed and clearer about the circumstances. It was a difficult situation for the cruise line as well. I am just glad I didn't have to make that telephone call in a no win situation. This thread has not changed my opinion of HAL and are still considering HAL for our next cruise. This is why I wandered over here in the first place to do research. I think I might just look at a Cruise Critic cruise for HAL. That way if anything happens, I will have the plentiful company of fellow CCers to commisserate with.

[hammybee]

In theory, if the cruise was very severly overbooked, they would first bump all the people on interline, travel agent and other such fares, and then start bumping "regular" passengers.

__________________________________________________ ____________

Don't you mean providing incentive to passengers to take a different cruise opposed to bumping "regular' passengers? While the result is the same, I think the cruiseline approach is different.

[newmexicoNita]

__________________________________________________ ____________

Don't you mean providing incentive to passengers to take a different cruise opposed to bumping "regular' passengers? While the result is the same, I think the cruiseline approach is different.Hammy, basically you are right but I think what Doug meant was, if they couldn't get people to change plans. Just like the airlines do with passengers: they don't like to bump except for course interliners; they offer the best incentives possible to get people to change their plans, but if this doesn't work they have no choice. As for cruise ships, the incentives are usually very good plus as said, this rarely happens, but in the event they couldn't get others to change plans they had no choice and of course, first comes TA as we travel the cheapest, then interliners and on up the line. We also keep forgetting she was given an option. Unfortunitely it wasn't one she could take or wanted to take, whichever. NMnita

[hammybee]

As for cruise ships, the incentives are usually very good plus as said, this rarely happens, but in the event they couldn't get others to change plans they had no choice and of course, first comes TA as we travel the cheapest, then interliners and on up the line. NMnita

__________________________________________________ ______________
I am curious if you or any TA is aware of a relatively recent bump by a cruiseline (other than the unfortunate Oceonia thing that was due to internal training problems that was subsequently taken care of by the CEO). It seems to me that the cruise lines , like airlines, would continue to accelerate the incentive to obtain the necessary number of passengers to volunteer to change their plans, ala what happened on Rita's cruise. Given the number of passengers on any overbooked cruise, it seems almost impossible that there would not be a way to work it out.

[mancunian]

I don't fully understand this overbooking principle. Surely the whole thing shows up at the final payment stage and I don't see how they can be bumping anyone, TA or not, 4 days before the cruise. They should have ample time to sort our who is prepared to change to another date and for later no shows surely they are holding on to the fare anyway.

[cruiseco]

What bothers me as a former TA is the idea that a TA would actively discourage clients from booking with HAL over this -- even if HAL is a perfect match for the client. As other TAs have said, booking a TA fare is a hit and miss proposition. You always know that you may not be sailing and you always know that you may not be notified until the last minute.

If I was taking a cruise as a vacation and really couldn't afford to be bumped (sailing with friends opr family susally) I would never tkae a TA rate even if it was offered. Too much of a chance that I'd be sitting home while everyone else was having a good time.

But if the OP is really a professional he/she would not let this event (which was predictable and totally within HAL's rights) take clients who would match up perfectly with HAL's product and move them somewhere else. That's just letting your personal disappointment get in the way of doing what's right.

[RuthC]

What bothers me as a former TA is the idea that a TA would actively discourage clients from booking with HAL over this -- even if HAL is a perfect match for the client. As other TAs have said, booking a TA fare is a hit and miss proposition. You always know that you may not be sailing and you always know that you may not be notified until the last minute.

But if the OP is really a professional he/she would not let this event (which was predictable and totally within HAL's rights) take clients who would match up perfectly with HAL's product and move them somewhere else. That's just letting your personal disappointment get in the way of doing what's right.
Exactly.

[Scrumpy]

And if you read what I said, I think you are pretty nice too; that doesn't change my mind or others about the OP. What is it you don't understand: this is the way the game works when you are on an industry rate: she knew that or certainly should. Of course getting bumped so late sucks, but as agents we realize this can happen. For her to blame HAL just shouldn't happen. I am cruising HAL in Novemeber. I am on an industry rate (not a TA rate) I know what can happen. My biggest fear is we are traveling with friends and they are paying full fare. I do not expect to be bumped, it is the slow season, but I know it can happen. I didn't mean to insult you in anyway: you said you are gullible, I did agree, but I also admire your sticking by OP. NMnnita

Thanks; I'm not really insulted and I didn't mean to come across as if I were. I think most people are far too cynical. I don't know the OP and occasionally stick up for people when I think they're being dog-piled unjustly. I understand everything that has been written; I disagree about whether the policy itself is a fair one when it is so late in the game. Bump a month out, fine. But, with less than a week? Regardless of the policy itself, implementing the bump privilege so late does not seem fair to me - and it also seems risky when you're dealing with a TA who may be able to affect your future business (to a tiny degree).

Comments suggest the OP has no right to be upset that plans were changed at the last minute. First, I don't accept that it is okay (or what someone has coming to them) for a cruise to be cancelled with so little notice; it's a crappy policy. Sure, they know COULD happen, but it could happen to any of us, at least in theory, per the contract itself. There is an extremely small risk of that for any of us and when it happens, it benefits those with flexible travel plans since they'll normally give a full fare paying passenger incentives to switch cruises. Second, a person is going to react to things in their own way and I don't think other folks grant them the "right" to be upset about something. We may disagree with the reaction, but that's our issue. Things got a bit nasty regarding this topic and the point was lost. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean you should do it.

Reading forward, I will speculate that the reason she couldn't/wouldn't change her plans was because she was travelling with an 8 year old. I'd imagine that in September, the child would be back in school. The child has already been getting quite an education in the "ways of the world", I'd say.

[Pudgesmom]

Thanks; I'm not really insulted and I didn't mean to come across as if I were. I think most people are far too cynical. I don't know the OP and occasionally stick up for people when I think they're being dog-piled unjustly. I understand everything that has been written; I disagree about whether the policy itself is a fair one when it is so late in the game. Bump a month out, fine. But, with less than a week? Regardless of the policy itself, implementing the bump privilege so late does not seem fair to me - and it also seems risky when you're dealing with a TA who may be able to affect your future business (to a tiny degree).

Comments suggest the OP has no right to be upset that plans were changed at the last minute. First, I don't accept that it is okay (or what someone has coming to them) for a cruise to be cancelled with so little notice; it's a crappy policy. Sure, they know COULD happen, but it could happen to any of us, at least in theory, per the contract itself. There is an extremely small risk of that for any of us and when it happens, it benefits those with flexible travel plans since they'll normally give a full fare paying passenger incentives to switch cruises. Second, a person is going to react to things in their own way and I don't think other folks grant them the "right" to be upset about something. We may disagree with the reaction, but that's our issue. Things got a bit nasty regarding this topic and the point was lost. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean you should do it.

Reading forward, I will speculate that the reason she couldn't/wouldn't change her plans was because she was travelling with an 8 year old. I'd imagine that in September, the child would be back in school. The child has already been getting quite an education in the "ways of the world", I'd say.

Scrumpy, I think you're still missing the point on this. I understand that the OP would be upset about having her plans changed- but this is STANDARD PRACTICE for people in the business. One time, it took me 6 flights and 22 hours to get from San Antonio to Baltimore with a 3 and a 4 year old. My choice, I was traveling on an airline pass. Was I tired and upset that it took so long? YES! Did I complain? NO, because I knew what the rules where when I headed to the airport. Did I badmouth the company to my friends or on a message board? NO!

Therein lies the difference. The OP did not say she was sad her plan didn't work. She was angry at HAL and was thinking of refraining from booking future passengers.

If the OP wanted a GUARANTEE of a cabin, she could have and should have booked one. She did not. She attempted to travel to Europe from the US in the high season with a child on a non-guaranteed fare. She took a gamble and it didn't pay off. Then, she gave a partial explanation leaving out important details. And, although you feel it is not "right," you're wrong. People in the travel industry KNOW this happens in all kinds of scenarios when traveling at a free or reduced rate.

Beth

[twinkletoes4445]

I think most people are far too cynical. I don't know the OP and occasionally stick up for people when I think they're being dog-piled unjustly. I understand everything that has been written; I disagree about whether the policy itself is a fair one when it is so late in the game. Bump a month out, fine. But, with less than a week? Regardless of the policy itself, implementing the bump privilege so late does not seem fair to me - and it also seems risky when you're dealing with a TA who may be able to affect your future business (to a tiny degree).

I agree. It's just too bad they overbook in the first place. I can understand airlines doing this...you can always catch another plane, but a cruise ship is leaving port.

Something else that has concerned me is how HAL books charters and then willy-nilly lets people know about this. There's several threads where people have found at at different times that they think they are on a cruise, but they aren't. Shonuf was one who found out early (although she had to be persistent with HAL and her TA to get a straight answer)...others were not so fortunate.

But as with many things posted here...I just file it away for future reference. Knowledge is king and I certainly have a lot of info that I have compiled from all the posters here. :)

[Scrumpy]

I'm not missing the point. I disagree with the policy in regard to last-minute cancellations. If others like it, that's fine. I would not travel, even for free, if I knew there was a chance I'd get bumped within a few days of a cruise. I am surprised that this policy is apparently so popular. I can understand it on an airline, but I can't on a cruise.

Whether I'm "right" or "wrong" is not up to YOU to say. We are allowed to have opinions and allowed to disagree. I don't need your permission or approval. I know the way I feel may not be popular. I know my standards are different. I know businesses can pretty much do what they want. My belief system is obviously way out of step with the mainstream and that is perfectly fine with me. That's why I am not in sales. I think it is wrong, unfair, and inherently unethical to have a contract with someone that allows you to ditch them within days for more money. These contracts are legal, people accept them, etc., but that doesn't change the way I feel about them. I understand the dollars and sense of business, but that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with any of the "accepted", "standard" practices. Sometimes I do; sometimes I don't.

I doubt the OP's opinion will make any difference to HAL's bottom line and, like anyone else, she is free to voice whatever concerns she has to anyone she chooses. Isn't part of the motivation for offering a reduced rate the HOPE that TA's will steer clients to a line in the first place? Maybe they don't admit it, but surely that is the case. It's a shame things didn't work to the cruise line's advantage and I agree it isn't quite fair that she may (or may not) use this experience to caution against them, but it's a risk they too chose to take when they set up the TA rate scheme in this manner.

[newmexicoNita]

__________________________________________________ ______________
I am curious if you or any TA is aware of a relatively recent bump by a cruiseline (other than the unfortunate Oceonia thing that was due to internal training problems that was subsequently taken care of by the CEO). It seems to me that the cruise lines , like airlines, would continue to accelerate the incentive to obtain the necessary number of passengers to volunteer to change their plans, ala what happened on Rita's cruise. Given the number of passengers on any overbooked cruise, it seems almost impossible that there would not be a way to work it out.For the most part you are right and again, let me stress, this bumping situation is rare, but it still does occur. Yes, like the airlines the cruiselines offer great incentives to get people to change their plans, but unlike airlines this is quite a simple. If you are scheduled to fly from LAX to Dallas at 2pm and the plane is oversold, 75% of the time taking a later flight that day or even the next morning isn't goint to be a hardship. Heck, give me a $400 voucher and tell me I will be on the 7pm flight, I'll grab it every time, but to change a week or two long vacation is a little more challenging. My guess also, in this case (btw, we keep saying she was only given 3 days notice) she was given 5 days. The ship leaves this coming Wednesday. Anyway I am guessing several full paying passengers were on stand by lists. HAL probably decided to try and get them on the ship by bumping some industry passengers. I do remember her saying somewhere along the way there were 10 overbooks bumped. At least I think she said that. If this ship had been sailing out of Miami I am sure it would have been much easier to get people to change vacation plans, but we are talking Europe. Many were probably already there on packed and ready to leave. NMNita

[newmexicoNita]

What bothers me as a former TA is the idea that a TA would actively discourage clients from booking with HAL over this -- even if HAL is a perfect match for the client. As other TAs have said, booking a TA fare is a hit and miss proposition. You always know that you may not be sailing and you always know that you may not be notified until the last minute.

If I was taking a cruise as a vacation and really couldn't afford to be bumped (sailing with friends opr family susally) I would never tkae a TA rate even if it was offered. Too much of a chance that I'd be sitting home while everyone else was having a good time.

But if the OP is really a professional he/she would not let this event (which was predictable and totally within HAL's rights) take clients who would match up perfectly with HAL's product and move them somewhere else. That's just letting your personal disappointment get in the way of doing what's right.I agree, as a TA my job is to match my clients with the best cruise for them, not base my suggestions on my personal feelings one way or the other. I have a particular line that I have had horrible customer service problems with but I also have several clients that love the line: I have never bad mouthed the company to any client. Same as I have my favorite line, but would never push it on another nor even suggest it to some. NMnita

[refman]

A taste of their own medicine? That's a leap. Let's see - a disappointed individual with a gripe against a large corporation gets skepticism and scathing remarks from people who seem to get enjoyment from seeing her lose her vacation at the eleventh hour - because she didn't recite chapter and verse about the rules under which she booked. I'm sorry you are glad this happened. That's a pity.


if she`s such a well versed t/a as she claims than she would`nt have to read line for line now would she. you really should read what really is going on and then maybe figure it out.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I wasn't here from the beginning, but I have read the entire thread. Still, I'm reluctant to leap into the frey so I won't.

However, whenever CC members feel they have been duped in any way at all here, they (we) are going to react. I think that's fair. Because everyone posting on this thread initially felt really sorry for the OP because of what happened to her.

Both her subject line and initial post were a little deceptive by not giving all the facts. That's why you get this reaction.

I don't think anyone here is really happy that she got bumped. I doubt anyone really believes she "deserved" it. They simply believe the OP wasn't initially forthcoming and so they feel duped. When starting a thread I think it's really important to give as much information as possible and title your thread in a way that won't be misconstrued.

It's my personal opinion that all of us bear a responsibility for what we post here ... especially when we're starting a new thread.

[newmexicoNita]

I wasn't here from the beginning, but I have read the entire thread. Still, I'm reluctant to leap into the frey so I won't.

However, whenever CC members feel they have been duped in any way at all here, they (we) are going to react. I think that's fair. Because everyone posting on this thread initially felt really sorry for the OP because of what happened to her.

Both her subject line and initial post were a little deceptive by not giving all the facts. That's why you get this reaction.

I don't think anyone here is really happy that she got bumped. I doubt anyone really believes she "deserved" it. They simply believe the OP wasn't initially forthcoming and so they feel duped. When starting a thread I think it's really important to give as much information as possible and title your thread in a way that won't be misconstrued.

It's my personal opinion that all of us bear a responsibility for what we post here ... especially when we're starting a new thread.Heather, I don't always agree with you, especially on the dining issue, but I do agree with you on this: if we post here, whether OP or otherwise, but particularly OP we better be prepared to be subjected to the other side. NMNita

[refman]

heatherinflorida,
not that it matters much but in my opinion your stock just went up, thanks for summing up 6 pages of junk in one paragraph.

[Scrumpy]

if she`s such a well versed t/a as she claims than she would`nt have to read line for line now would she. you really should read what really is going on and then maybe figure it out.

I have it figured out. I simply disagree with the policy and with you. Is that clear enough? I disagree with your attitude. Your post indicated quite plainly that you were glad someone was unhappy and disappointed. You said they got a taste of their own medicine. Did you type in the heat of the moment? Did you really mean what you said? If you didn't mean it, does that make you deceptive? Does it mean you deserve to be unhappy because you might have resorted to saying something like that out of frustration when you didn't really mean it? Or, are you the kind of person who enjoys it when others suffer because you don't like what they said? No need to answer, btw. I have this figured out, too.

[Aussie Gal]

Heather,

You have spelt out what most of us felt in a few short lines. When one starts a post, please remember to put in all the facts so that we can then either agree or disagree with the OP.

I am not sure if the OP deliberately left out half the facts to get a sympathy vote or was too upset to tell us everything at the beginning but in this case, so many facts were left out that we only gradually got to the bottom of the whole saga by repeatedly asking the OP questions.

In a way we were duped and that is why there are so many strong opinions. If the OP has told us everything in the beginning then we posters would have sympathised with her and it would only probably been a page of postings.

Jennie

[Pudgesmom]

I'm not missing the point. I disagree with the policy in regard to last-minute cancellations. If others like it, that's fine. I would not travel, even for free, if I knew there was a chance I'd get bumped within a few days of a cruise. I am surprised that this policy is apparently so popular. I can understand it on an airline, but I can't on a cruise.

Whether I'm "right" or "wrong" is not up to YOU to say. We are allowed to have opinions and allowed to disagree. I don't need your permission or approval. I know the way I feel may not be popular. I know my standards are different. I know businesses can pretty much do what they want. My belief system is obviously way out of step with the mainstream and that is perfectly fine with me. That's why I am not in sales. I think it is wrong, unfair, and inherently unethical to have a contract with someone that allows you
.

You obviously are not in the travel industry, then. You may not like the rules that we have, but nevertheless, the rules exist, and we are aware of them. This has nothing to do with standards. It is NOT part of the fine print. The contract, which everyone in the industry is familiar with, is that you are NOT guaranteed a spot. Just because you are not familiar with this practice doesn't make it wrong or unethical. The fact that you say would not do this says it all, you don't get it, this type of traveling has never been available to you nor part of your plans. Travel professionals and employees have traveled, or not, this way for years.

The unethical thing here was for the OP to post claiming being bumped and not explaining that she was traveling on an industry fare. Just because she choose to travel halfway around the world to try to do this is immaterial, the rules are the same everywhere.

You can give her your sympathy, in fact, she has mine that her vacation plans had to change, but it is not wrong that she had to change them. That is not an opinion, that is fact.

Beth

[Scrumpy]

Beth, I don't think you get what I'm saying either. There are a lot of rules in a lot of different industries. Some of them are fair and some are not fair. The fact that something is an accepted practice does not make it the right way to do things... NO, I'm not in the travel business and would not like to be in that business, to be brutally honest, but that doesn't mean that I automatically branded the OP a liar or thought she was being willfully deceptive. Even if this type of travel WERE available to me, I would not do it. I am especially risk-averse when it comes to travel. Discounts and freebies always seem to have a catch and being bumped at the last minute would be far too great a risk.

There are a lot of things that I think are wrong, immoral or unethical that are completely acceptable in certain fields and even in society at large. OTOH, I probably have no qualms about a few other things that make some people very upset. Your certainty about this issue and assurance that the "wrong" is not wrong is no more a fact than any of my beliefs are necessarily facts. It's a policy that I think should be re-examined when it comes to timing of cancellation. The timing is my big beef and if the majority of those affected think it's okay, then it probably won't be re-examined - regardless of my opinion. People are allowed to disagree. Leave it at that and we'll be fine.

[Pudgesmom]

Scrumpy,

I do get what you're saying. In fact, I'm usually the first to champion an underdog, or someone who has been wronged.

Unfortunately, your desire to cling to a position that works well for the general traveling public runs the risk or scaring other travelers. Witness the other thread on this very cruise line.

So, feel as you may, but know that others in the know do not agree with your misinformed opinion.

Beth

[DD]

Whether I'm "right" or "wrong" is not up to YOU to say. We are allowed to have opinions and allowed to disagree. I don't need your permission or approval. I know the way I feel may not be popular. I know my standards are different. I know businesses can pretty much do what they want. My belief system is obviously way out of step with the mainstream and that is perfectly fine with me. That's why I am not in sales. I think it is wrong, unfair, and inherently unethical to have a contract with someone that allows you to ditch them within days for more money. These contracts are legal, people accept them, etc., but that doesn't change the way I feel about them. I understand the dollars and sense of business, but that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with any of the "accepted", "standard" practices. Sometimes I do; sometimes I don't.


Scrumpy, I think you're missing the point. No one forced the OP to accept the terms of the contract but she did. Now I've seen these TA rate offers. The "fine print" is neither fine nor buried. It's very clear, upfront, that you run the risk of being bumped for a full-paying passenger. As a TA, you can not possibly miss this part of the deal. You know going into it what the terms are. Whether you choose to accept them or not is up to you. No one is twisting your arm. The OP chose to accept the terms and now she's bad-mouthing the cruiseline because something that she HOPED wouldn't happen DID happen.

You are right in that you are entitled to your opinion about the contract. You are entitled to feel that the contract is not something that you agree with. You have the right not to like the agreement entered into by the OP. However, to say that the cruiseline's contract is inherently unethical is wrong. The cruiseline did absolutely nothing underhanded or unethical.

[Scrumpy]

Beth - The phrase is "I agree to disagree". It's misguided to characterize me as misinformed; this has been explained several times, I'm not an idiot and I still haven't bought into the concept. I can't see how anyone would find the late cancellations tolerable, acceptable or in any way a good thing for anyone other than shareholders of the cruise line. (Note to self: buy stock). If some are willing to put up with the risks, I kinda pity them because it smacks of desperation. Hey, I didn't think travelling the country (cheap) selling encyclopedias was a great opportunity either, so I guess I just miss out on all the good stuff, LOL!

The OP scared some folks and yes, that's a shame. I wish it hadn't happened. My personal position on that situation shouldn't scare anyone. That's an odd thing to say. Why would a full fare passenger be frightened? If cruiselines start to overbook consistently and resort to involuntary bumping of full fare passengers within the last 5 or 6 days before cruising, then it will affect them and they should be frightened (or angry, indignant, whatever). Or not. Who knows what they'll do? At that point, someone would doubtless start quoting their contract to them.

DD - No one forces any of us to take a cruise. (okay, maybe, but it's got to be pretty rare, LOL). (Valid) Contracts are entered into voluntarily - but to get what we want, we often do not get to negotiate terms. Often, circumstances dictate that we get something a certain way or do without it entirely. IOW, the cruiseline has the power. When cancellation is too close to boarding, I have a problem. If the majority of those potentially affected think this is acceptable, then it won't change. I find it interesting and sad that some clamor to support this risky "benefit". I understand it on an airline with multiple flights and multiple opportunities to eventually get where you want to be. I don't understand it on a cruise where you could be pulled aside at boarding and told your luck has run out. I would hope a cruise line would manage inventory well enough to know at least a week or two in advance that a cabin would be needed by a full fare passenger. I know that in the scheme of things the money is what the company wants, but it doesn't seem right to disappoint people at the last minute. I understand WHY they do it. I don't understand why folks put up with it, though. It is a potentially worthless benefit; in fact, it could be worse than nothing if you don't have a Plan B. Ya'll seem happy with it and keep defending it; I'm sure the cruise lines appreciate that.

Hey, is that why there are so many TAs in Florida? LOL! My feeling is that TAs are accustomed to the status quo and believe rocking the boat would result in a loss of this rather questionable perk. I don't think voicing my highly personal concerns about this will affect any of you. It doesn't really affect me either. I only got into this because I thought people were nasty to the OP and because I find the policy itself questionable. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much. And, it's now the end of the day :cool:

[HeatherInFlorida]

Thank you, Nita, refman, Jennie:) ! Unfortunately, the point didn't hit his mark.

So one more try: If I started a thread saying "My husband walked out on me!!!!" and then posted that my husband packed up his bags and left me this morning, everyone would be horrified and feel sorry for me.

But if a little later it came out that I slept with his best friend last night, everyone might sing a different tune:D . I would probably even lose the people who might have supported me once the entire story, start to finish, was known.

So for those of you who want to continue this battle, the reaction on this thread is no longer about what happened to the OP. It is really about the fact that she wasn't forthcoming with her whole story in the beginning. They think they've been duped, don't like being taken in, so they become critical of the OP. Doesn't mean they think what happened was fair or right.

It happens here all the time ... it's deja vu all over again;) .

[newmexicoNita]

Scrumpy,

I do get what you're saying. In fact, I'm usually the first to champion an underdog, or someone who has been wronged.

Unfortunately, your desire to cling to a position that works well for the general traveling public runs the risk or scaring other travelers. Witness the other thread on this very cruise line.

So, feel as you may, but know that others in the know do not agree with your misinformed opinion.

Beth
Beth, I think we are fighting a losing battle here. We all know the rules as TAs. of course we feel sorry for anyone who gets bumped a week out or I guess 5 days especially when she was traveling internationally to cruise, but if she was a top agent as she says this would not have been as big a problem as she made nor would she have told 1/2 the story to start. Scrumpy will continue to believe the rule or policy is unfair, you, I and the other TAs fully understand and agree, when we book this type of fare what can happen. I guess, if nothing else this subject has given the public a view of what really happens when industry people cruise, fly, stay in hotels, whatever. I know so many who think we just do all this traveling and hardly pay a penny. I also know many who decide to become agents because they think they will get perks and freebies all over the place. iFor some reason I think that may well be the case with the OP.NMnita

[twinkletoes4445]

Beth, I think we are fighting a losing battle here.

It's not a battle...but rather a difference of opinion. :)

We all have the right to our opinion, and I have no right (nor desire) to change what you or anyone else thinks, so I don't consider my difference with you as "losing a battle." I think the policy is wrong. That's what I have a problem with. But that's the policy and that's the way it is (and it's clear that TA's should know the rules and what might happen to their booking). I do understand that the OP booked under a different set of circumstances than I would (I'm not a TA), and I do understand what happened to her and why...I just don't happen to agree with HAL's policy on this. I think it's crazy to even offer such a thing, when there is a possibility that it could be revoked at short notice. I also think it's nuts to book something like that. Flying standby on an airline is one thing...you will eventually catch another flight, but a cruise ship leaves. And it's gone.

Either way, HAL is the one who benefits. They book the room cheaply to a TA, and then if they discover they can sell it to someone else (for more money) or they overbooked, then they bump this person. I can't even imagine why a TA would want to even deal with this. Yes, I would risk it for a cheap flight...but not something like this. But that's just me. That's just my opinion.

I was on a thread the other day that was about tipping room for service. I tip. Others don't. I do realize that this is a different subject, but it's really not my place to try and convince those that don't tip, to tip. They have their reasons, and I have mine.

My point is...we all "get it," we just may not agree with this particular policy. :)

[Tinknock50]

What is really intetresting about this thread is that the OP appears to be long gone!:)

[twinkletoes4445]

What is really intetresting about this thread is that the OP appears to be long gone!:)


LOL...that's no joke! :)

[Host Walt]

It's not a battle...but rather a difference of opinion. :)

We all have the right to our opinion, and I have no right (nor desire) to change what you or anyone else thinks, so I don't consider my difference with you as "losing a battle." I think the policy is wrong. That's what I have a problem with. But that's the policy and that's the way it is (and it's clear that TA's should know the rules and what might happen to their booking). I do understand that the OP booked under a different set of circumstances than I would (I'm not a TA), and I do understand what happened to her and why...I just don't happen to agree with HAL's policy on this. I think it's crazy to even offer such a thing, when there is a possibility that it could be revoked at short notice. I also think it's nuts to book something like that. Flying standby on an airline is one thing...you will eventually catch another flight, but a cruise ship leaves. And it's gone.

Either way, HAL is the one who benefits. They book the room cheaply to a TA, and then if they discover they can sell it to someone else (for more money) or they overbooked, then they bump this person. I can't even imagine why a TA would want to even deal with this. Yes, I would risk it for a cheap flight...but not something like this. But that's just me. That's just my opinion.

I was on a thread the other day that was about tipping room for service. I tip. Others don't. I do realize that this is a different subject, but it's really not my place to try and convince those that don't tip, to tip. They have their reasons, and I have mine.

My point is...we all "get it," we just may not agree with this particular policy. :)

Allow me to share the experience of our TA.

Several years ago she accepted the offer of a "FAM" trip (familiarization) offered by the New Orleans Visitors Bureau. No air was provided, but Southwest offered a 80% discount for TA standby's from Burbank to N. O. The trip to NO started with a BUR-PHX leg, then PHX - Amarillo, then Amarillo to Dallas (Love) then Dallas (Love) to New Orleans. She left at 7:10am and was scheduled to arrive in NO at about 7:30pm local.

Each leg was standby. She was advised that she would lose her seat if a late revenue booking arrived. She was 2nd lowest in priority, with employees flying free being the first off if seats were needed.

She really was nervous about Amarillo where the record showed only 5 empties to Dallas. If she was bumped in Amarillo, she had a 6 hour wait plus a close connection in Dallas to arrive in NO after midnight. (She was allowed to board just as the door was being closed.)

Bottom line, she made it, but called her husband and made him buy her a full revenue reserved ticket on Delta for the teturn home. And she got more than peanuts to eat on board. (This was easily 15 years ago) No refund on the unused 80% off ticket either.

The point is that SW wanted the benefit of a supportive Travel Agent and was willing to offer a big discount to fill an empty seat as compensation. The TA, in accepting the offer, had to agree to the contingencies that were attached to the offer. Otherwise plan B, to fly both ways on Delta as a full revenue pax would be the only option.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Twinkletoes, you're kidding, right? Because if you read this thread all at once, it's definitely a battle!!!

What is really intetresting about this thread is that the OP appears to be long gone!:)

Tinknock, she's gone because she left yesterday for Europe. If you read back you'll see she ended up booking a river cruise or something. So she's gone, but definitely not forgotten.

All's well that ends well, I suppose:) .

[Tinknock50]

Twinkletoes, you're kidding, right? Because if you read this thread all at once, it's definitely a battle!!!



Tinknock, she's gone because she left yesterday for Europe. If you read back you'll see she ended up booking a river cruise or something. So she's gone, but definitely not forgotten.

All's well that ends well, I suppose:) .

Right......and there have been almost 60 posts since we last heard from her.....LOL

[dakrewser]

I will support anyone's right to have an opinion that differs from mine, no matter how wrong you might be. All I ask is that you offer facts to support that opinion, and defend those facts.

[twinkletoes4445]

Twinkletoes, you're kidding, right? Because if you read this thread all at once, it's definitely a battle!!!

Oh, I have read it. :)

[RuthC]

What I find interesting is that of all the posters who object to HAL's (and by extension, other lines') policy on this, the OP isn't one of them. If she didn't like the policy she simply didn't have to book under it.
Her only problem with the policy came when she learned it actually applied to her. :rolleyes:

[twinkletoes4445]

Bottom line, she made it, but called her husband and made him buy her a full revenue reserved ticket on Delta for the teturn home. And she got more than peanuts to eat on board. (This was easily 15 years ago) No refund on the unused 80% off ticket either.

The point is that SW wanted the benefit of a supportive Travel Agent and was willing to offer a big discount to fill an empty seat as compensation. The TA, in accepting the offer, had to agree to the contingencies that were attached to the offer. Otherwise plan B, to fly both ways on Delta as a full revenue pax would be the only option.

I understand why these companies offer these things...and flying would be a different option for me than cruising...like I said, the ship leaves, and that's that...at least there would be another plane in the near future.

Personally, no matter how good the deal is for a cruise, I wouldn't take it if I was a TA...because I wouldn't want the hassle if I was bumped. I suppose if I lived in a port area, and it wouldn't matter if I was bumped, I might think about it...but I personally wouldn't do this. :)

I have lots of friends who have family in the airline industry...and I remember their tales of flying...and how they may or may not have gotten to where they are going in a timely fashion. But then again, they were flying for peanuts...and it worked for them.

I don't mean to upset anyone...I don't. The OP did not include all the info when originally posted. I just don't happen to like the policy that HAL (and I would imagine others do the same) has for this. HAL is the one who will benefit either way. I suppose it's a gamble for the TA...a good deal, but you run the risk of being booted. :)

[twinkletoes4445]

What I find interesting is that of all the posters who object to HAL's (and by extension, other lines') policy on this, the OP isn't one of them. If she didn't like the policy she simply didn't have to book under it.
Her only problem with the policy came when she learned it actually applied to her. :rolleyes:

LOL...And as a TA, she should have known this, which is her fault.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Right......and there have been almost 60 posts since we last heard from her.....LOL

Right, Sean:) ... which just reminds us how often this happens. People don't want to let it go. And someone always ends up taking the OP's side and is left twisting in the wind without the person they're defending. If I had $1 for all the times an OP cuts and runs when the response isn't what they hoped or expected, I'd probably have the deposit for our next cruise!!!:D

Back on topic, it's really amazing how many people are willing to take a risk until they're on the losing side of it.

[Scrumpy]

Since the OP is now in Europe, family in tow, "cut and run" is unnecessarily prejorative - as is "twisting in the wind", etc. It is not required that an OP stick around, especially when they've had to hastily rearrange an overseas trip. And, why would anyone want to stick around only to be subjected to some of the remarks that have been made? It's pointless trying to defend herself now; folks have had all weekend to sharpen their spears.

I'd pretty much bid adieu to this topic last night, but it's raging again today and folks can't resist making unkind comments. Do we have to finish with negative posts and characterizations of the OP that are speculation based on alleged purposeful deception? Can't we agree to disagree pleasantly? Does there have to be one last jab? Let's be nice and end on a positive note forgoing ifs, ands, or buts.

I hope the OP is having a wonderful time. The trip of a lifetime. I hope she is relaxed and happy. I hope her child has nothing but pleasant memories of this vacation. There's a youngster involved here and I hope this replacement holiday is so wonderful that all complications that took place before they left are quickly forgotten, replaced with the unabashed childhood joy that warms all our hearts.

[hammybee]

Right......and there have been almost 60 posts since we last heard from her.....LOL
__________________________________________________ ______________

Has that ever once stopped most of us from continuing?

[hammybee]

.

I hope the OP is having a wonderful time. The trip of a lifetime. I hope she is relaxed and happy. I hope her child has nothing but pleasant memories of this vacation. There's a youngster involved here and I hope this replacement holiday is so wonderful that all complications that took place before they left are quickly forgotten, replaced with the unabashed childhood joy that warms all our hearts.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Amen.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Scrumpy, I already said that this particular OP left Monday for Europe. It's right in my post above. So of course she's not here.

But in my more recent post I'm not talking about this OP at all. I'm talking about the fact that this happens here on CC all the time.

Here's my post: "Right, Sean:) ... which just reminds us how often this happens. People don't want to let it go. And someone always ends up taking the OP's side and is left twisting in the wind without the person they're defending. If I had $1 for all the times an OP cuts and runs when the response isn't what they hoped or expected, I'd probably have the deposit for our next cruise!!!:D "

I was not talking about the OP because she obviously left for a very good reason ... she's on vacation!!! If there's any rage on this thread, most of it has come from you. I've been in your position myself on this board many times and I've learned that there's always another side to every story.

Speaking for myself I have not said one unkind thing about this poster. I have not jabbed (as you say) her even once. What I did do is try so hard to explain what is going on here. It's not about her problem, it's about the way she presented it. I know you think she bears no responsibility for that, but most of us disagree.

Just so you know I believe it was really nice of you to take up for her. And you should always defend your opinions and stand up for what you believe in. But much as we'd like to, we can't always have the last word. People will just keep on posting until they get bored.

And then it will go to the thread burial ground in the sky.:)

[RuthC]

And then it will go to the thread burial ground in the sky.:)
And in two (or so) years it will be resurrected. :rolleyes:

It's the cycle of life.

[Scrumpy]

Thanks Heather,
I appreciate your compliment. I disagree with some of your terminology and characterization, but understand what you mean and why you feel that way. It would be nicer if things were written in a straightforward manner detailling all the facts from the beginning; I agree. I think it'd be easy for someone else to apply your generalizations to the OP and that's why I objected. Having read the entire thread more than once, I know what's going on, but we all know how often people jump on the last few posts and make assumptions.

There's no rage here at all; that's a very strong emotion and I can't think of anything related to CC or cruising in general that would provoke that kind of reaction in me. Been some disappointment, frustration, and sadness - maybe a touch of disgust at the way some things were said by some people, but rage is pretty rare for me :) (May have used some hyperbole I don't specifically recall that gave that impression; I'm prone to that, especially when writing. Mea culpa). Statements on here are also sometimes subtly or ambiguously worded, so I think it's best we don't explore this too deeply and simply concentrate on moving forward. Language, and especially internet communication, is so often misunderstood. I'm thrilled (okay, "quite pleased") to leave someone else to have the last word. Would love ("like", "enjoy", LOL!) it if the eventual last word came from the OP in the form of photos from that river cruise. I think I might like to try one of those someday myself!

Happy Trails!

[HeatherInFlorida]

Scrumpy, I only used the word "rage" because you said the thread "raged on". So I picked up on that.

You're right. Someone could misconstrue my point. I really do try not to come down on anyone in particular. That's always my goal here; sometimes I fail. But I honestly thought by saying only a couple of posts back why the OP was gone that people would know that I was generalizing about what happens on the board so often.

On a message board, we converse much like we would if we were talking. Unfortunately it ends up in print. So what might be just a quick conversation in "real life" is here in print to haunt us at some point.

Anyway, I firmly believe everything happens for a reason and the OP will probably end up having a more amazing time than she ever could have dreamed on an ordinary cruise. So as I said before, all's well that ends well and hopefully it will.:)

[newmexicoNita]

Scrumpy, I only used the word "rage" because you said the thread "raged on". So I picked up on that.

You're right. Someone could misconstrue my point. I really do try not to come down on anyone in particular. That's always my goal here; sometimes I fail. But I honestly thought by saying only a couple of posts back why the OP was gone that people would know that I was generalizing about what happens on the board so often.

On a message board, we converse much like we would if we were talking. Unfortunately it ends up in print. So what might be just a quick conversation in "real life" is here in print to haunt us at some point.

Anyway, I firmly believe everything happens for a reason and the OP will probably end up having a more amazing time than she ever could have dreamed on an ordinary cruise. So as I said before, all's well that ends well and hopefully it will.:)Heather, I too have always beleived everything happens for a reason; this is not saying everything works out for the best, but for a reason. You could be right, she and the family may have a wonderful and memorable vacation, much different than the everyday cruise we all take on a regular basis. NMnita

[serendipity1499]

[quote=Scrumpy]Beth - The phrase is "I agree to disagree". It's misguided to characterize me as misinformed; this has been explained several times, I'm not an idiot and I still haven't bought into the concept. I can't see how anyone would find the late cancellations tolerable, acceptable or in any way a good thing for anyone other than shareholders of the cruise line. (Note to self: buy stock). If some are willing to put up with the risks, I kinda pity them because it smacks of desperation. Quote

Why would you Pity me? :confused: I was never desperate! And I've had a wonderful & exciting life!

I'm retired from the Airline business after 32 years and have been fortunate enough to travel all over the world..I've had some very exciting times, met & kept some wonderful friends while accepting these same "Rules of Interline Travel" for more than 32 years!...As a young single woman I slept in Copenhagen Airport with 10 other Airline Employees for 5 days...But I knew the rules & my salary was docked for those 5 days..

My company sent me "space available" to Brussels for a training class with three other employees in the Middle of Dec...There was fog in Belgium for three days & in order for us to get back for Christmas we took a train to the coast, a ferry to Folkstone & another train to London to STAND-BY for a TWA flight..We knew the rules & we accepted them without question..

In the early 80's My DH & I flew to Mexico with our teenage son in the Middle of Feb.(High season)..Our son was still in school that was the only time we could travel.. We had pre-paid an interline rate for the week at & I knew the risks.. On arrival the Hotel did not have a room for us even though it was pre-paid..After many hours of looking for a Hotel we were fortunate enough to find one for only one night..It looked like we would have to return home..Fortunately we were able to find alternate space for the rest of the week...

I've also booked cruises at an Interline Rate & have sweated it out until the ship actually sailed..Now it's wonderful to be able to pay full fare for our vacations, but I don't regret having the past travel experiences & I'm not to be pitied!

Never in my entire life as an Interline Traveler would I publicly condemn a Hotel, Cruise Line, Airline, etc or anyone who granted me a discount even if they could not accommodate me! That was an irresponsible thing for the OP to do in her original post! I would have been fired by my company if I ever went public with something such as this! Yes she was disappointed, but that was the risk she took when booking at a reduced rate..

All Travel Agents & Interline Employees should know the rules... These are necessary rules if a Cruise Line, Airline or Hotel is going to stay in Business..As Host Doug pointed out all companies over-book & they sometimes have to bump at the last minute..

You may not agree, but most of us who have had these privileges accept them & are thankful that we can get these wonderful trips..So please don't pity us!

Betty

[agabbymama]

Just out of idle curiosity, would all of you still have the same opinion if you had been bumped five days out? My reading of the INFAMOUS "Cruise Contract" is that it can happen to anyone, not just TAs or discounted rates. I would love to see this thread when it starts happening to ordinary cruisers! And it will, because the almighty dollar is involved.

Scrumpy is right in saying this tactic is not right. Cancellations or bumping should not happen within the last week before sailing. If the cruiseline can't determine they are overbooked by then, they aren't running their business correctly in the first place. But as long as millions of people still fork over their money to cruise, nothing will change. If people are willing to put up with late cancellations or bumping, which seems to be the case on this board, the cruiselines do not have to worry about changing a thing. :eek:

[serendipity1499]

[quote=agabbymama]Just out of idle curiosity, would all of you still have the same opinion if you had been bumped five days out? unquote

I answered this question in my previous post..I was bumped out of a Pre-paid Hotel in Mexico for ONE SOLID WEEK on arrival... Our family had flown all day from New York via Dallas & then on to Mexico..

These rules are not new! And I still feel the same way..I knew the rules & accepted them 30 years ago...Had many vacations disrupted but that's the price I paid for reduced fares..The OP is a Travel Agent & knows the rules & if she does not accept them she should not book at a reduced rate...

If cruise lines, hotels & airlines did not overbook they would not go out full..

Betty...

PS. Apology to Host Walt-It was you who pointed out all companies over-book & they sometimes have to bump at the last minute (not Doug as I previously stated)..Sorry

[serendipity1499]

Further to your question about being notified at the last minute, I've also been seated on flights & paged to go to the front of the aircraft..I was quietly told by a gate agent that I would have to disembark..They had a last minute full paying passenger who needed a seat.. One time it happened in Fiji on my way to Sidney..My luggage arrived in Sidney without me! I stood by for three days, but finally made it..

Was I happy, of course not,:( but I knew the rules & accepted them..

[newmexicoNita]

[quote=Scrumpy]Beth - The phrase is "I agree to disagree". It's misguided to characterize me as misinformed; this has been explained several times, I'm not an idiot and I still haven't bought into the concept. I can't see how anyone would find the late cancellations tolerable, acceptable or in any way a good thing for anyone other than shareholders of the cruise line. (Note to self: buy stock). If some are willing to put up with the risks, I kinda pity them because it smacks of desperation. Quote

Why would you Pity me? :confused: I was never desperate! And I've had a wonderful & exciting life!

I'm retired from the Airline business after 32 years and have been fortunate enough to travel all over the world..I've had some very exciting times, met & kept some wonderful friends while accepting these same "Rules of Interline Travel" for more than 32 years!...As a young single woman I slept in Copenhagen Airport with 10 other Airline Employees for 5 days...But I knew the rules & my salary was docked for those 5 days..

My company sent me "space available" to Brussels for a training class with three other employees in the Middle of Dec...There was fog in Belgium for three days & in order for us to get back for Christmas we took a train to the coast, a ferry to Folkstone & another train to London to STAND-BY for a TWA flight..We knew the rules & we accepted them without question..

In the early 80's My DH & I flew to Mexico with our teenage son in the Middle of Feb.(High season)..Our son was still in school that was the only time we could travel.. We had pre-paid an interline rate for the week at & I knew the risks.. On arrival the Hotel did not have a room for us even though it was pre-paid..After many hours of looking for a Hotel we were fortunate enough to find one for only one night..It looked like we would have to return home..Fortunately we were able to find alternate space for the rest of the week...

I've also booked cruises at an Interline Rate & have sweated it out until the ship actually sailed..Now it's wonderful to be able to pay full fare for our vacations, but I don't regret having the past travel experiences & I'm not to be pitied!

Never in my entire life as an Interline Traveler would I publicly condemn a Hotel, Cruise Line, Airline, etc or anyone who granted me a discount even if they could not accommodate me! That was an irresponsible thing for the OP to do in her original post! I would have been fired by my company if I ever went public with something such as this! Yes she was disappointed, but that was the risk she took when booking at a reduced rate..

All Travel Agents & Interline Employees should know the rules... These are necessary rules if a Cruise Line, Airline or Hotel is going to stay in Business..As Host Doug pointed out all companies over-book & they sometimes have to bump at the last minute..

You may not agree, but most of us who have had these privileges accept them & are thankful that we can get these wonderful trips..So please don't pity us!

BettyBetty, actually I find myself smiling when reading some of your stories: we are parents of airline employees, I am retired from a major hotel chair reservations cener and now a part time TA and have had all this happen: 25th wedding anniversary; Majorca Spain, pre-paid reservation: same as you, got to the hotel and was told they had sent us a letter letting us know they could not accomodate us afterall. The manager was very nice, but that didn't help. We found a hotel that offered an interline rate and could take us for one night. Eventually found a place the rest of the time: got to Nashville one night, same story, reservation in hand; the hotel chain I worked for: sorry, sold out and nothing in a reasonable price range was available. Been bumped off the planes more times than I could count although, at least now, with the new security rules, anyone who in traveling has to be checked in far enough in advance that if you make it on the plane, you probably won't be pulled. Yes, those of us in the business do understand. My standard statement "the price is right" if I know being bumped is out of the question for our situation we pay full fare. Actually flying, we are doing this more all the time. LOL

[newmexicoNita]

Just out of idle curiosity, would all of you still have the same opinion if you had been bumped five days out? My reading of the INFAMOUS "Cruise Contract" is that it can happen to anyone, not just TAs or discounted rates. I would love to see this thread when it starts happening to ordinary cruisers! And it will, because the almighty dollar is involved.

Scrumpy is right in saying this tactic is not right. Cancellations or bumping should not happen within the last week before sailing. If the cruiseline can't determine they are overbooked by then, they aren't running their business correctly in the first place. But as long as millions of people still fork over their money to cruise, nothing will change. If people are willing to put up with late cancellations or bumping, which seems to be the case on this board, the cruiselines do not have to worry about changing a thing. :eek:I think our host explained the reasoning behind this: hotels, airlines and cruise ships will always overbook due to cancellations: Would I feel the same if it happened to me, it hasn't yet on a cruise, thank goodness, but has on both hotels and flights: do I like it, of course not, but I do understand. As for full paying passengers, sure it can happen, but it is very unlikely. Like airplanes, the incentives to change plans are so attractive there are usually enough volunteers, if not, that's when they start bumping; the better industry rate you are on, the quicker you are bumped; again full paying passengers usually don't have to even think about anything like this. NMNita

[agabbymama]

I disagree with the majority of you on this post. I have taken a lot of land vacations and out of about 24 flights, I've only had one cancelled, and they put us on other flights and carriers as soon as possible. I had a Hawaiian Airlines flight home but ended up flying Delta about two hours later. As a full paying passenger (not a TA/standby or free flight) I have never been bumped or forced to step down, even though they say airlines overbook. I think the cruiselines are way out of line. They use their "cruise contract" which virtually says they can do what they want when they want with any passenger, not just TAs or special fares. And if they overbook intentionally, the day will come that full-paying passengers will also be affected. The same as they can and do change itineraries at their will. As for hotels, again, I've never been bumped from a room that I have paid for. I have cruised just a few times, because of this, and have no loyalty to any cruiseline. I know all the cruiselines have this "cruise contract", and I'm not willing to give them this power over my vacation. When I purchase something, I expect what I purchased to be provided. I wouldn't be real happy if I paid for a Rolls Royce and a Volkswagon was delivered to me. Yet by booking a cruise with any cruiseline, as far as I can tell, that is what you are doing. You are paying the cruiseline for maybe a cabin on a ship, no guarantee that you will go where you are supposed to, or have the cabin that you paid for. And it's totally up to the cruiseline. I do have a cruise coming up in Sept/Oct on Celebrity and I pray the Constellation doesn't have "pod" problems. I also have a cruisetour planned next year on HAL. I booked both of these before I found this website and started reading all the catastrophes that can and do happen on cruises. To me a cruise is just a means of transportation to get somewhere that wouldn't be easily gotten to any other way. New England/Canada to Boston, Portland, Bar Harbor, Halifax, Quebec, Saint John and back to NY couldn't be done in a car in 11 days. You could fly, but that would be cost prohibitive, thus a cruise made sense. Alaska is another destination that a cruise works for Ketchikan, Juneau, Skagway, Sitka. It would be extremely expensive to try and fly to all of these ports, and you couldn't drive. However, with the infamous "Cruise Contract", even though you book for these cruises, it may not be where you go. Look at the Celebrity Summit fiasco, and RCI lawsuit for a Bermuda cruise that went to New England/Canada.

The cruiselines think thay can do what they want when they want, with no regard to the passengers. And as long as people continue to fork over the money to cruise thinking it won't happen to them, there won't be any changes made. If my two upcoming cruises happen without incident, I don't plan any further cruises in the future. I will stick to land based vacations to where I want to go. While I can't control the weather, I can control my destination.

As I stated in my previous post, the cruiseline should know well before 5 days out that they are overbooked. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be bumped at 5 days notice. And if it can happen to a TA/special fare passenger, it can and will happen to full paying passengers as well.

I believe your loyalty to cruise lines is misplaced. You should start thinking of yourselves and (if you're TAs) your clients as well. Yet like sheep, people continue to cruise by the thousands.:D

[gizmo]

I disagree with the majority of you on this post. I have taken a lot of land vacations and out of about 24 flights, I've only had one cancelled, and they put us on other flights and carriers as soon as possible. I had a Hawaiian Airlines flight home but ended up flying Delta about two hours later. As a full paying passenger (not a TA/standby or free flight) I have never been bumped or forced to step down, even though they say airlines overbook.



Airlines do overbook. I do more than 24 flights a year and see it all the time. Full paying custmers do get bumped when they can't get volunteers.

Hotels also overbook. They will send you to another hotel.

Cruise lines do the same thing. They usually find pax who will give up their cabin and get compensated.

The OP's case is slightly different since she was on a special fare and knew she could get bumped.

[Pudgesmom]

agabbymama,

Have you had a chance to read this entire thread?

There are two different kinds of travelers here, and they do NOT overlap.

The cruise contract you are talking about is for paying passengers, not industry (also known as interline) passengers. The discounts and freebies available to interline passengers can be substantial; much better sometimes that even the most discounted regular fare. The gamble: you may not go anywhere. This situation is not new, it will not spill over onto paying passengers, and is not a result of any Big Brother cruiseline conspiracy. As far as I know, all travel businesses like airlines, hotels and cruiseships have some form of this travel plan for employees and TAs. Each business makes some general rules for these travelers and then may have side agreements with specific companies. The interline arrangements are not available at any time to regular customers, mostly because of the downside.

It is what it is: A POTENTIALLY great deal. What it is not: A guarantee of travel or lodging.

Many regular customers are totally unaware of this type of travel, and when they first hear of it, are as shocked as you are. Believe me, its not for the faint of heart or for travel to your own wedding. In those cases, we BUY a ticket and expect the same benefits as the general traveling public.

The OP's gamble failed. Just because she attempted this in another continent doesn't make the conditions any different. I'm sure the cruise line gets a few last minute cancellations, and this is what they count on for the interline travelers. It didn't happen this time. So the OP came on here and cried foul without initially explaining what type of traveler she was.

That's why she did not receive sympathy from those of us familiar with what she was trying to do.

Beth

[RevNeal]

Yet like sheep, people continue to cruise by the thousands.

"Yet like sheep" ???

I've never seen any sheep on a cruise ... unless they were served on my plate as a leg-of-lamb! :D

Methinks thy metaphors are befuddled. ;)

[newmexicoNita]

I disagree with the majority of you on this post. I have taken a lot of land vacations and out of about 24 flights, I've only had one cancelled, and they put us on other flights and carriers as soon as possible. I had a Hawaiian Airlines flight home but ended up flying Delta about two hours later. As a full paying passenger (not a TA/standby or free flight) I have never been bumped or forced to step down, even though they say airlines overbook. I think the cruiselines are way out of line. They use their "cruise contract" which virtually says they can do what they want when they want with any passenger, not just TAs or special fares. And if they overbook intentionally, the day will come that full-paying passengers will also be affected. The same as they can and do change itineraries at their will. As for hotels, again, I've never been bumped from a room that I have paid for. I have cruised just a few times, because of this, and have no loyalty to any cruiseline. I know all the cruiselines have this "cruise contract", and I'm not willing to give them this power over my vacation. When I purchase something, I expect what I purchased to be provided. I wouldn't be real happy if I paid for a Rolls Royce and a Volkswagon was delivered to me. Yet by booking a cruise with any cruiseline, as far as I can tell, that is what you are doing. You are paying the cruiseline for maybe a cabin on a ship, no guarantee that you will go where you are supposed to, or have the cabin that you paid for. And it's totally up to the cruiseline. I do have a cruise coming up in Sept/Oct on Celebrity and I pray the Constellation doesn't have "pod" problems. I also have a cruisetour planned next year on HAL. I booked both of these before I found this website and started reading all the catastrophes that can and do happen on cruises. To me a cruise is just a means of transportation to get somewhere that wouldn't be easily gotten to any other way. New England/Canada to Boston, Portland, Bar Harbor, Halifax, Quebec, Saint John and back to NY couldn't be done in a car in 11 days. You could fly, but that would be cost prohibitive, thus a cruise made sense. Alaska is another destination that a cruise works for Ketchikan, Juneau, Skagway, Sitka. It would be extremely expensive to try and fly to all of these ports, and you couldn't drive. However, with the infamous "Cruise Contract", even though you book for these cruises, it may not be where you go. Look at the Celebrity Summit fiasco, and RCI lawsuit for a Bermuda cruise that went to New England/Canada.

The cruiselines think thay can do what they want when they want, with no regard to the passengers. And as long as people continue to fork over the money to cruise thinking it won't happen to them, there won't be any changes made. If my two upcoming cruises happen without incident, I don't plan any further cruises in the future. I will stick to land based vacations to where I want to go. While I can't control the weather, I can control my destination.

As I stated in my previous post, the cruiseline should know well before 5 days out that they are overbooked. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be bumped at 5 days notice. And if it can happen to a TA/special fare passenger, it can and will happen to full paying passengers as well.

I believe your loyalty to cruise lines is misplaced. You should start thinking of yourselves and (if you're TAs) your clients as well. Yet like sheep, people continue to cruise by the thousands.:DYou are totaling missing what we are saying: yes, the airlines overbook more than anyone else, you have been lucky: do passengers normally get bumped? no because there are enough passengers that will gladly take the vouchers, but it happens on a daily basis. Ask my daughter who is a ticket and gate agent in Orlando. The hotels do also and will walk guests to another hotel if this happens, but again it happens daily. that is why giving a CCard for guarantee is so important. If you just hold a room and the hotel sells out they are under no obligation to find you something else. If you have reserved with a CC they are. As for the cruise ships, they are least likely to do this as the situation comes up rarely but it does happen. I personally do not know of one full paying cruiser that has ever been bumped. We are referring mostly to industry travelers. I have had clients offered a sweet deal to change their sailing dates, but never have I had one bumped. We do not have loyalty to cruise lines, we just know the way the game is played. What would you suggest we do; all of us picket the cruise lines? NMNita

[agabbymama]

newmexicoNita, You are in the business, you would better know who to contact about changes than I. The current lawsuits might have some success at getting things changed. Pickets or lack of ticket sales, might also make the cruiselines take note and make some changes. They won't until their profits drop or some legal entity makes them change. And I don't know who or where you make your reservations, but any I've made in the last 5 years have had to be paid for totally at the time of booking, and have never been cancelled or bumped yet. As you say, I may just have been lucky.

Revneal, I don't think my metaphor is befuddled. Thousands of people are still cruising, accepting all these things that are happening. Following like "a bunch of sheep", saying, "oh well, as long as I can continue to cruise on a beautiful ship, so what if I may have an extra day or two at sea instead of going where I wanted to go", not worrying about making the cruiselines perform and provide what was purchased. If you have ever been around a flock of sheep, where one goes, the others follow. I think my metaphor is totally apropo.:p

[serendipity1499]

You are totaling missing what we are saying: yes, the airlines overbook more than anyone else, you have been lucky: do passengers normally get bumped? no because there are enough passengers that will gladly take the vouchers, but it happens on a daily basis. Ask my daughter who is a ticket and gate agent in Orlando. The hotels do also and will walk guests to another hotel if this happens, but again it happens daily. that is why giving a CCard for guarantee is so important. If you just hold a room and the hotel sells out they are under no obligation to find you something else. If you have reserved with a CC they are. As for the cruise ships, they are least likely to do this as the situation comes up rarely but it does happen. I personally do not know of one full paying cruiser that has ever been bumped. We are referring mostly to industry travelers. I have had clients offered a sweet deal to change their sailing dates, but never have I had one bumped. We do not have loyalty to cruise lines, we just know the way the game is played. What would you suggest we do; all of us picket the cruise lines? NMNita

Agree 100%..agabbymama do you realize that we are not talking about full paying passengers? Don't understand at all why you would disagree with us..Of course full paying passengers should not be Bumped!I have never been Bumped when paying full fare & don't expect to be...And you should not expect to be bumped..When your flights are canceled they must protect you, but when Interlines flights are canceled we must protect ourselves..

However, this thread is not about a Full Paying Passenger..It was started by a Travel Agent who was booked on an Interline Fare..Pudgesmom asked if you had read the entire thread..I don't believe that anyone who has read this entire thread would fail to understand why the Original Poster was bumped & our response to it! I've taken hundreds of flights, have had 13 cruises & stayed in hundreds of hotels & can count on one hand the number of times I've been actually Bumped on an Interline Discount..They do stand out!

NMNita..Got a laugh out of your post...It's also great that I can now wear Jeans on a flight!;)

Betty

I'm booked as a full paying passenger on the Ryndam in November & expect to have my cabin!

[agabbymama]

Serendipity1499,

Oh yes, I've read the whole thread. When I jumped in, it was with the question of whether opinions would change if this did start happening to
full fare paying passengers. I still believe the cruiselines are wrong in bumping ANYONE at 5 days from sailing. The cruiseline should know whether they are overbooked long before that. Yes he/she may know as a TA he/she was getting a deal and gambling, but the fact remains, the cruiseline took her/his money/booking then waited until 5 days before sailing to bump her/him. My concern is that if they will do it to TAs/special fares, that because it would be profitable for them, that they will start doing it to ANY passengers, with no guidelines in place to prevent the cruiselines from doing this very thing.:eek:

[gizmo]

My concern is that if they will do it to TAs/special fares, that because it would be profitable for them, that they will start doing it to ANY passengers, with no guidelines in place to prevent the cruiselines from doing this very thing.:eek:

This has already happened. A lot of pax got bumped from a Carnival cruise out of Baltimore in 2004. The cruise line expected x amount of cancellations and they didn't get it. The cancellation number was way below the usual. I don't remember how far out it was from the sail date when they were notified. It was ugly. They had no choice.

I think TA/Special Fares is an entirely different ball game. When you buy a fare like this, you know up front what could happen.

I guess the question is how far in advance should they notify the TA ?

[agabbymama]

gizmo,

Thanks for the info on the Carnival cruise in 2004. As I said, that's what worries me. If it is still profitable to the cruise lines, and they can get away with it, they will do it.

Yes, the question is, at what point should the cruiseline notify ANYONE not just a TA that they are being bumped? I mean, come on, they have bean counters that know after full payment is made, just exactly how many passengers they are going to have. If they are waiting until 5 days out to figure this out, that isn't anyway to run a business anyway.:eek:

[Pudgesmom]

These are two different issues.

I don't want the interline policies to change. More likely than not, these rates would just go away altogether. The purpose is to fill an otherwise unused hotel room, cruiseship stateroom, or airplane seat not purchased or used by a paying passenger. In a way, it is a professional courtesy.

If you want to discuss cancellation policies for a full-fare paying passenger, that is a different story. It is not what this thread is about.

Beth

[RevNeal]

Revneal, I don't think my metaphor is befuddled. Thousands of people are still cruising, accepting all these things that are happening. Following like "a bunch of sheep", saying, "oh well, as long as I can continue to cruise on a beautiful ship, so what if I may have an extra day or two at sea instead of going where I wanted to go", not worrying about making the cruiselines perform and provide what was purchased. If you have ever been around a flock of sheep, where one goes, the others follow. I think my metaphor is totally apropo.

Your metaphor assumes that (1) the worst contingency WILL always occur (i.e, sheep go to slaughter), and (2) we don't realize that such things can happen (i.e., the sheep are too stupid to know they're going to be eaten).

In reality, (1) things don't ALWAYS go wrong, and (2) we DO understand that bad things CAN happen. We are simply willing to accept the fact that sometimes crapola-happens (hurricanes, political upheavals, administrative errors, etc) and there's not much that one can do about it. Our choice is to deprive ourselves of the activity which we enjoy or enjoy the activity and take the chance (rather small) that something will go wrong. I, and many others, would rather not worry about and dwell upon the negative. Until we reach the other side of glory there are no guarantees in this life; our choice is either to live with it, or quit living. I prefer to live with it ... for now.

My newly-favorite adage is: when "crap" happens ... FLUSH, don't wallow in it.
This thread is an example of wallowing in it. I only chimed in because, the way you wrote your metaphor, generated some really funny mental images.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Agab, while your question is interesting and has been discussed on other threads, the fact is your scenario is not what was being discussed here. If you want to throw a fly in the ointment just to rev everyone back up again, go for it. But I think people have tired a bit.

RevNeal, we can always trust you to bring a giggle along. You're the best!:D Maybe she meant lemmings? Have you seen any lemmings on your cruises?;)

In the final analysis, yes people are bumped occasionally from a cruise. But it such a minute number that we're all ready to risk it. If it happens to us? Sure, we'll be angry. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what was being talked about here.

So why don't you start a whole new thread for that discussion?

I know no one will mind if I don't join that one:o

[desmon]

Help me understand...since final payment is due weeks in advance of sailing how can a ship be overbooked a few days before it leaves the dock?

Does the cruise line expect some people who have paid for a cabin not to sail - if so, they still have the revenue for a cabin.

Of if they have offered a discounted rate to someone and a full fare passenger comes along, do they bump the low rate passenger?

My wife was a full-time TA for a while and we took a couple of cruises on TA rates - the difference in fare was about $25 per person per day. It certainly wasn't worth waiting until a few weeks out to get confirmation and not know what cabin you will get. I asked her last night if she knew that we could be bumped after we paid for the cruise and she never heard of that rule. (Don't dare call us names!) We never had a problem - had one bad cabin and one great cabin, but decided it was not worth the trouble and then she left the industry completely. But if I had known the rule about being bumped and the cruiseline accepted my payment, then I would expect them to provide the service.

The rule should be (repeat "should be") you accept my money then you deliver the service.

[raadsel]

I've lurked on this thread from the beginning. I find it interesting that some seem to ignore the fact that the first page of the thread is almost completely people being upset over the situation. It's only once people started realizing things weren't adding up and the OP admitted to traveling on an Interline fair that people were upset at the OP's lack of candor.

The fact is, as has been stated many times on this thread, that the TAs that travel Interline fairs know that they can be bumped at any time, that it is something that is emphasized up front. They agree to those terms in order to get discounts (often substantial) on the price of the cruise/flight/hotel. They also know not to book "high season" (typically summer and holidays) as they are 98% sure to be bumped.

The other side is that those who are considered as paying a full fare are not typically bumped. Now, it is true that HAL (like all cruise lines) overbook. It is also true that, on occasion, HAL has had situations where they did not have enough rooms when final payments were made. In these cases, HAL has offered incentives (typically, from what I've seen, with a value that is around half the cost of the cruise) for people to change to a different sailing, and this is done just after final payments are made (about 60 days out). I've not heard of a normal passenger being bumped from HAL because of overbooking and get the impression that most of the regular posters here haven't either; instead HAL has always found plenty of people willing to change for the incentives offered. What I also read from the majority here is, if this had been a full paying customer that HAL would be completely in the wrong.

If an Interline passenger should be bumped with 5 days to sail is a different issue and one that could be debated (though the industry seems to have already made the decision). Yet, as many also have claimed, it's possible that if this were changed that most lines would simply drop Interline travel.

As for overbooking, the question is if most would actually want overbooking discontinued. The fact is that overbooking keeps the cost of cruising low. For an example, say the average cruise line overbooks by 10% (I'm not sure what the numbers really are, this is just for example). If they did not overbook, the cruise lines would have difficulty filling those 10% of cabins at the last minute -- especially at full price. So, rather than overbooking the choice is to raise rates 10% to cover the cabins that would be empty for each sailing. Of course, most of us aren't willingly going to pay 10% more (or whatever the rate actually is), typically we'll be willing to go with the lines that still overbook -- most people feel (and have voted with their wallets) that the cheaper price for the same product is worth the risk of being bumped.

The facts are that people who work in the travel industry know the disadvantages of Interline travel yet most appear to think the advantage in price is worth the risks. Some, however, apparently don't feel the savings is worth the risk and always book full fare. The fact is that they have the choice, they aren't forced into booking Interline. Many people would love the opportunity to travel at Interline rates, regardless of the risks. It's a matter of what risks you are willing to take with your vacation and how well you can deal with last minute changes. Those that aren't willing/able to deal with the risks book using a regular fare.

In the case of the OP, as a TA she had to know the risks and chose to book Interline anyway. She claims that there wasn't that great a cost difference but, to me, that just begs the question of why she didn't book full fare (and not risk being bumped) -- especially in Europe in early August (High Season). She apparently decided the rate was worth the risk, regardless of what the difference was, yet now is upset because the risk didn't pay off.

[cruiseco]

I still believe the cruiselines are wrong in bumping ANYONE at 5 days from sailing. The cruiseline should know whether they are overbooked long before that. :

What you're not taking into consideration is that up until six days prior to sailing everything may have been perfectly balanced -- booked passengers equaled available rooms and no overbooking situation.

Then on day 5 prior to sailing someone decides they want to go on this trip at the last minute. No problem, says HAL. We'll bump the person who agreed to be bumped if this situation were to pop up and accommodate the new booking. My bet is that this is what happened as opposed to some general overbooking situation that they couldn't straighten out.

I admit to being baffled by the reaction of non-TA's to this matter. Every TA that wishes to cruise already gets a discount on a confirmed booking (the same rules as everyone else) just by the fact that they get to net out their commission -- in my case with HAL I could subtract 16% off the top on any cruise at any time. That's a pretty good deal right there.

But if I really wanted a dirt-cheap deal I could go for a TA fare with the chance of getting bumped at any time. I know the risks. I know what will happen if I get bumped. If I get bumped I certainly don't expect sympathy from anyone. I rolled the dice and lost. Maybe I'll be luckier next time.

But those that think that HAL is the bad guy here are missing the whole picture. If HAL were to eliminate the TA fares (and the accompanying rules) I wouldn't have that chance to get lucky. From my point of view the chance of a last-minute bump is worth the cheap fare. Don't take that option away from me.

Also, when I was a TA for 15 years our agency booked approximately 5,000 - 6,000 pasengers per year. In those 15 years we NEVER had a client involuntarily have to give up a cabin because of an over-booking situation. We had many that accepted the offers extended to induce them to move to a different sailing but they always had the option of sticking with their original plans. I'm sure that involuntary bumps have happened but they're so rare that it's news when they do. In my experience it was 0 for 75,000.

[RuthC]

Help me understand...since final payment is due weeks in advance of Does the cruise line expect some people who have paid for a cabin not to sail - if so, they still have the revenue for a cabin.
Yes, the cruiseline does expect some people who have paid in full will not sail. They do still have the revenue, and they do re-sell the cabin.
All of that $$$$$ is figured in their budgeting when the cost of the cabin is set.

One time I was in Rome on a Monday preparing to sail on Wednesday; I didn't board. It's very possible that someone on a TA rate didn't get bumped because of that.

[newmexicoNita]

Help me understand...since final payment is due weeks in advance of sailing how can a ship be overbooked a few days before it leaves the dock?

Does the cruise line expect some people who have paid for a cabin not to sail - if so, they still have the revenue for a cabin.

Of if they have offered a discounted rate to someone and a full fare passenger comes along, do they bump the low rate passenger?

My wife was a full-time TA for a while and we took a couple of cruises on TA rates - the difference in fare was about $25 per person per day. It certainly wasn't worth waiting until a few weeks out to get confirmation and not know what cabin you will get. I asked her last night if she knew that we could be bumped after we paid for the cruise and she never heard of that rule. (Don't dare call us names!) We never had a problem - had one bad cabin and one great cabin, but decided it was not worth the trouble and then she left the industry completely. But if I had known the rule about being bumped and the cruiseline accepted my payment, then I would expect them to provide the service.

The rule should be (repeat "should be") you accept my money then you deliver the service.
You are right as far as using the rate for booking, I never do, but the rest isn't quite the way it works. Maybe no one ever informed your wife as this is rare, but it is a fact and is in writing when you get your information on the cruise. As for paying ahead, sure, final payment is due 60-90 days prior to sailing but many people book and pay in full just a week or so prior to cruising. Since 9/11 you do have to book 72 hours out, that's it. In fact we get information coming through to our bosses all the time listing special prices for late bookings. I hope this helps explain what happened a little better. BTW: you mentioned you only saved about $25 per day, well, that to me is a pretty nice savings if you thing about it: about $200 per person. I have seen TA rates as low as $35 per day period and other times not even be available. Usually they do save money, just not always worth the hassle. NMnnita

[HeatherInFlorida]

Raadsel and Cruiseco, excellent posts! Voices of reason. It's such a relief to see that people can come late to a thead, read it through and understand why people reacted the way they did.

[RevNeal]

RevNeal, we can always trust you to bring a giggle along. You're the best! Maybe she meant lemmings? Have you seen any lemmings on your cruises?

Thank you, Heather. At least SOMEBODY figured out I was trying to be humorous in my first post on this thread. This was just TOO thick of thread. I had avoided it all along, but thought I might throw some light coloring in. Sadly, someone thought I was serious. :) So ... I had a little more fun. But, you caught me. :):eek:

Baaaaaaaaaa

[HeatherInFlorida]

Thank you, Heather. At least SOMEBODY figured out I was trying to be humorous in my first post on this thread. This was just TOO thick of thread. I had avoided it all along, but thought I might throw some light coloring in. Sadly, someone thought I was serious. :) So ... I had a little more fun. But, you caught me. :):eek:

Baaaaaaaaaa

Greg, there's one thing you can always rely on with me ... if there's fun somewhere, I'm going to find it:D . So keep it coming!!!