Alaska Group 12 - The Lost 29 - Holland America (Combined Threads)

[Stringreen]

My travel companion and I traveled with Holland America on Tour 12 which left 8/16/06. All flights, tours, etc. were arranged by Holland America. There was a rail bridge and motor road washout which affected our train to Anchorage. H/A brought us to the airport but neglected to provide our names to the airline and about 20 of us couldn't get on that plane. H/A reps were totally incompetant (they got us to the ship 3 1/2 days after it sailed), they were rude (H/A rep Adam at Fairbanks told us to get a car and go somewhere else), we were awakened at 4 and 5 in the morning only to wait all day sitting around in a hotel room to await our names to be called - which didn't happen for days after list after list of our names were lost or forgotten. Not only did we loose 3 1/2 days aboard the ship, but we lost upgrades, optional already paid for tours, etc. that weren't reimbursed. We lost those postcard views of the glaciers and fjords that prompted us to choose to go to Alaska, we lost our dignity as we were talked down to like we were so much cattle, etc. We were offered 500 dollars shipboard credit by Holland America for the thousands of dollars we lost due to their incometance, and we lost our once in a lifetime dream of an Alaska vacation. BOO to Holland America. I would caution anyone thinking of traveling with them to Alaska to rethink their decision. I am a long time traveler with H/A, but have never experienced such poor treatment as with Holland America Alaska. If anyone wants to contact me for a complete listing of H/A failures in this regard, its SgreenT@Att.Net.

[Krazy Kruizers]

So sorry to hear that your dream Alaskan tour and cruise were ruined.

I assume that you will be writing a letter to Seattle and have everything documented.

[grannynurse]

Let's see if I understand this. You never got on the ship at all? IF so how did they expect you to use a $500 shipboard credit? Is it for a future cruise or was your cruise supposed to be 7 days instead of 4?
Did you report "Adam" for his nasty attitude? Have you had any communication with HAL since you've been home?
I'd write an open letter to The CEO and publish it publicly. Make sure you include all details including dates and times of events, and peoples' names.
What a nightmare!

[localady]

I believe the one thing that the writer mentioned, is that it was pouring in Fairbanks and everything was flooded out.

I have taken a cruise tour, and I agree, HAL's summer hires can be difficult to deal with, but I suspect this situation may have come about due to the reported flooding in Alaska.

I am sorry the poster had that experience, we also were in Alaska during floods and the scenery was less than spectacular.

[hammybee]

You may want to check out " Treatment by HAL" posted by "Home at Last".
Not sure if you were on the same cruise or tour but the "wash-out" and HAL's response to it, seems to have ruined some vacations. " Home at Last" is still missing luggage.

HAL, or any carrier for that matter, is not responsible for weather or "wash out" conditions that may impact sailings or tours.

This is no different than any airline operating flights or hotels offering lodging, in areas impacted by nature.

HAL, and all carriers, are however, responsible for the way they react to situations, beyond their control. In this case, it seems as though HAL and/ or its agents, missed several opportunities.

My advice to you and " Home at Last" is the same. Figure out what is reasonable restitution and go for it.

[Copper10-8]

The best way you can learn about any organization is when things go wrong, Mr. Murphy makes an appearance and/or the proverbial "droppings" hit the fan. HAL has always been one of those companies (at least in our experience) that rose/will rise to the ocassion when "ship happens", sometimes beyond anyone's control (weather, I'm pretty sure, is part of that;) ).

There is usually a lot of scrambling going after these types of incidents and sometimes, solutions are not always easy to come by in a timely manner. People get stressed out (on both sides). Sounds like in this incident, based on what the OP is telling us, HAL didn't come through, sorry to hear that! (I believe this is the second thread written about the same weather-related problems in AK).

It's already been suggested; the best thing you can do, Stringreen, is to document all the problems encountered and send that letter to the president of HAL, Stein Kruse. You will get an answer.

[drdaddy]

The response you get may not be what you are hoping for. This is typical of HAL in situations llike this. The response usually is typical "thanks for the input".

We had a similar situation a couple of years ago with HAL during hurricane season. Instead of changing itinerary we traveled towards the hurricane and then just diverted around it and ended up doing very little because most of the ports were either closed or all the water excursion craft were out of the water. Wrote to Mr. Stein and the response was garbage. I was not looking for money back but some kind of incentive to book again with HAL if they still wanted my business. Nuttin'.

Having said that, we are booked on our third HAL trip. HAL has an excellent product when things go well. The price is reasonable compared to RCCL, the itinerary seems better than Celebrity (at least for us) and the service is a whole lot better than NCL or Carnival (or so I hear). When things hit the "ship", they miss the ball pretty bad. I am not sure any cruise line would be of much help with this problem y'all had in Alaska. Sounds awful. And I thought they were just a problem because being out of Seattle, they did not care too much for their Caribbean trips. I guess they just have some poor customer service overall.

Let us know the outcome and hopefully they will come forth as they should.

[hammybee]

We had a similar situation a couple of years ago with HAL during hurricane season. Instead of changing itinerary we traveled towards the hurricane and then just diverted around it and ended up doing very little because most of the ports were either closed or all the water excursion craft were out of the water. Wrote to Mr. Stein and the response was garbage. I was not looking for money back but some kind of incentive to book again with HAL if they still wanted my business. Nuttin'.

Cruiselines are not responsible for weather. There are X ships and Y ports and sometimes the best that can be done, under the circumstances, is to give passengers more days at sea. This is an obvious risk when sailing in hurricane season. In exchange for the risk of port disruption, most cruises are deeply discounted and are able to capture passenger business they might not otherwise. BTW, I am sailing in October and know that the intended ports may or may not be realized.

[BumperII]

They tell me that an exageration is a truth that has lost its temper. I sure can understand anger at having a cruise vacation spoiled by an act of nature. But things do happen, and in the face of problems, it seems to me that HAL scrambles pretty well.

If there is anything I don't want to do, it would be to sail into a hurricane to get to a port that has been knocked out of commission so I can look at the wreckage. Personally, I'm glad they sail around those things, and extra days at sea don't bother us a bit. For us, a ship like the Statendam or Maasdam, the ship is a destination in itself, and no matter what happens, we try to have a good time anyway. And we have always noticed that the ship staff on board is much more professional than anything we find ashore.

In MHO a tour is an entirely different kind of experience than a cruise; one is on TOUR, not on vacation! One is always on someone else's schedule, waiting for someone else to arrive, etc, and the stress is significant. The point I'm trying to make, is that we are not big fans of cruisetours or group tours to begin with. When we want to tour, we usually go by car and make our own arrangements, or fly into a city and take the day trips. The more one loses control over the situation, the more frustrating it is.

We are going to cruise again in late October, and we are going with our eyes wide open, expecting changes to be made as necessary for the saftey and comfort of all the people on board.

[the2ofus]

I am surprised that no one suggested that Stringreen ask the TA to go to bat for him/her. The TA should have more clout than the OP alone. Certainly, no one should have been left waiting at the airport until someone found the lists of pax to be transferred. HAL shore staff should have gotten their act together. From the several threads about this particular problem, it is clear that the HAL Shore Staff in Alaska needs new management.

[middle-aged mom]

Hello Stringreen:

I certainly sympathize with your plight. I hope you are able to salvage something from this fiasco. Not that it's going to make you feel any better, but there's a thread on the Princess board about this same natural disaster. Apparently, more than one cruiseline was left scrambling when the mudslide/washout occurred. Here's the thread (in case anyone might like to know of it):

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=405088

I guess sometimes when it's humans vs. nature, nature wins, unfortunately. Stringreen, please let us know how things work out for you, if you're able to. Thanks for bringing your situation to our attention. Again, I'm really sorry to hear about what happened to you.:( I honestly don't know how I would have managed in such a debacle.

[Jemima]

, but we lost upgrades, optional already paid for tours, etc. that weren't reimbursed. SgreenT@Att.Net.

Optional excursions that don't take place are reimbursed. The reimbursement which might be part of the shipboard credit. Are you certain you weren't reimbursed in some manner?

[Lightsluvr]

How many threads will OP start on this issue?

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=406790


LL

[Bramcruiser]

Oh Oh, do I see hints of defending HAL again? Actually, its nowhere as bad as in the past. Yes, while I agree that HAL cannot be blamed for weather-related conditions I do think the lack of customer service and the losing of customer names and the leaving off of passenger names on the flight out seems to be something that the cruiseline mishandled. So once again the potential though for the proverbial miscommunications begin again as the newbie poster blames HAL on everything and we could easily see the return of some saying "It couldn't possibly be HAL's fault!". The reality is somewhere in between.

To the OP, I wholeheartedly understand why you are upset. Sit down and write a letter to head office. Can't guarantee they will do much but say thanks for the input. However, point out exactly where they went wrong in terms of customer service. Do not blame them for the washout. I am not sure you can blame HAL for being late catching the cruise because you would have been late leaving anyway due to the weather-related problems. However, mishandling the passengers at the airport is just another sign that HAL did not appropriately handle the rescheduling of people and bags anywhere near well during this incident. All the previous posts seem to point to the same thing. The people on the board aren't going to be able to help other to listen but a nicely worded letter to head office does more wonders than any posting.

I've had a similar mishap with an airline once before. Couldn't blame the airline for the snow storm in another city cancelling flights in the originating city but the inept airport staff who never made more than one bad announcement (hardly heard by anyone) and many gate agents who wholeheartedly lied made my day. I ended up playing airline employee and walked around one gate where about a hundred passengers were waiting for a flight never going to be boarded and were unaware of the cancellation. Needless to say I didn't flip but I did write a strongly worded letter to head office and got a huge apology from them. To this day I am still flying that airline although I believe that particular airport has inept staff.

Glad to see some of the long-time posters being realistic this time. Maybe we are actually finally crossing the bridge of communicating with each other. HAL screwed up on some parts but this is not exactly indicative of how HAL operates either.

[newmexicoNita]

Customer service seems to be lacking everywhere; you can read any board about cruises, air, hotels, restaurants, internet companies, banks whatever and hear the same thing: they were nice to me. i think if a little more time was spent teaching good customer relations many of our complaints would become just minor annoyances. AS for the weather, no cruise line, airline or resort can be held responsible for natural disasters.

I know a long anticipated vacation that is ruined can leave any of us pretty upset, but we also have to remember these things do happen.

NMnita

[the2ofus]

How many threads will OP start on this issue?

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=406790


LL

Stringreen is clearly stressed-out over this situation, and rightly so. If it helps to post on the Alaska board as a way of getting it out of his/her system, why not? People can choose to read or skip the thread.

[kryos]

HAL, or any carrier for that matter, is not responsible for weather or "wash out" conditions that may impact sailings or tours.

This is no different than any airline operating flights or hotels offering lodging, in areas impacted by nature.

True, HAL can't be held accountable for weather problems, but the point is that they agreed to provide a comprehensive tour package and thus have a responsibility to get those passengers to and from the ship, revising their tour destination if necessary. If the weather made the contracted for tour impossible, then HAL should have had a plan B and shared it with their passengers. Then they should have had the competence to make sure that plan B was carried out, with minimal impact on the passengers.

I get really sick of companies that hide behind the fact that they use independent contractors or "summer help," and use that as an excuse for incompetence. Tough. You want to save money by farming out certain tasks to independent contractors, then you have to make sure they are properly trained and up to your standards. So many corporations are doing this ... having their customer service functions farmed out to call centers in India or wherever. They save a bundle doing this, supposedly. Well, that's fine. But that doesn't mean they don't bear the responsibility if something goes wrong. While those employees may be independent, they are still representing your company ... and thus it is your responsibility to ensure that job is done right or else bring the function back "in-house."

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Bramcruiser]

Stringreen is clearly stressed-out over this situation, and rightly so. If it helps to post on the Alaska board as a way of getting it out of his/her system, why not? People can choose to read or skip the thread.

Agreed. I didn't mean to actually say don't talk to us about it but re-reading what I wrote I did sound like that that. It helps to get stuff off your chest but HAL itself will never change until HAL itself is aware of the situation.

Quietly crawling back into my hole.:rolleyes:

[middle-aged mom]

Hi Bramcruiser:

You can come back out of that hole:). 2ofus was responding to a post by Lightsluvr, not a post of yours.

Karin

[Tinknock50]

Thanks Karin,

I thought I was loosing my mind (well I am but thats another matter).

I re-read Bramcruisers post 3 times and didn't see the problem.:)

[bplazo]

If you lost a few days of your cruise would your travel insurance reimburse you for those days? We lost a couple days of our cruise with a hurricane and we received some compensation from insurance.

[Bramcruiser]

Hi Bramcruiser:

You can come back out of that hole:). 2ofus was responding to a post by Lightsluvr, not a post of yours.

Karin


OOPS! Thanks Karin and Tinknock50. I guess I read it into my own post then. Bad David! Okay, will come out of my hole and keep myself quiet.

[Bramcruiser]

If you lost a few days of your cruise would your travel insurance reimburse you for those days? We lost a couple days of our cruise with a hurricane and we received some compensation from insurance.

You know what? That is such an obvious question. If someone is being compensated then why complain. Could it be that someone didn't have insurance? Its a reality that not every traveller takes out insurance so that could be one scenario.

[middle-aged mom]

Hi again, Bramcruiser (David):

Your resolution to keep quiet didn't last very long:D ;)

Please, keep up your excellent posts. This is a public forum, and you are as entitled to your two cents as anyone else here.:) Only in your case, I'd say your thoughtful posts have considerably more value than that.

Karin

[Robin7]

This is a public forum, and you are as entitled to your two cents as anyone else here.:)

At least y'all didn't resort to name calling like they did on that Princess thread you posted the link to. The offending posts have been removed now, but I was AMAZED at the tone when I read them earlier.:eek:

What I can't get over about the OP's situation here is it took THREE-AND-A-HALF DAYS for HAL to get them to their ship! Three-and-a-half days of sitting around waiting. How could it have taken them three-and-a-half days to make arrangements to get them out of there? According to the OP on the Princess thread, the Princess staff had their people to the Princess ship by the wee hours of the next morning, and the ship waited for them! I'm just dumbstruck by HAL's seeming incompetence in this matter.

Robin

[the2ofus]

Ah, David, I am grinning:D . Please climb out ot that hole. You have so many clear insights to share.

I often forget to quote the post I am replying to. This time, given the "fun" time on that other thread, I was SO careful to quote so as to avoid misunderstanding. Clear communication is not only in what we say but in how well we interpret what we read or hear.

[middle-aged mom]

What I can't get over about the OP's situation here is it took THREE-AND-A-HALF DAYS for HAL to get them to their ship! Three-and-a-half days of sitting around waiting. How could it have taken them three-and-a-half days to make arrangements to get them out of there? I'm just dumbstruck by HAL's seeming incompetence in this matter.

Robin

Agree with you Robin, I am as flabbergasted by Stringreen's ordeal as you are. :confused:

Karin

[wrp96]

At least y'all didn't resort to name calling like they did on that Princess thread you posted the link to. The offending posts have been removed now, but I was AMAZED at the tone when I read them earlier.:eek:

What I can't get over about the OP's situation here is it took THREE-AND-A-HALF DAYS for HAL to get them to their ship! Three-and-a-half days of sitting around waiting. How could it have taken them three-and-a-half days to make arrangements to get them out of there? According to the OP on the Princess thread, the Princess staff had their people to the Princess ship by the wee hours of the next morning, and the ship waited for them! I'm just dumbstruck by HAL's seeming incompetence in this matter.

Robin

I was thinking the same thing. Stringcruiser didn't make it to their ship for 3-1/2 days. The person on Princess made it for the entire cruise, but complained because he missed getting to take the train from Denali down to Whittier. There's a big difference in these complaints.

[sail7seas]

I'm still trying to figure out which ship. Did OP name the ship somewhere and I missed it?

[OldCodger73]

It was the Ryndam. Stringreen posted a much more detailed post on the Alaska board. Here's a link to the thread.
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=406790

[hammybee]

I'm still trying to figure out which ship. Did OP name the ship somewhere and I missed it?


Good question. I am curious about the dates too- thinking this might be pushing 2 weeks by now.

[hammybee]

I decided to answer my own question about the timing of this. It was 8/18-19.
Here are a few of the excerpts I retrieved from news wires: ( where have I been???)

All passenger/frieght train traffic to/from Denali suspended.
The main hwys. and rail between Anchorage and Fairbanks closed.
Mudslides washed out 55 feet of track.
Some bridges washed out.
Home evacuations.
Many people stranded in Red Cross Shelters.

In other words, this was serious stuff, a mini Katrina, Alaskan Style. This most certainly ruined many vacations. I have a new appreciatoin for how challenging a time this was for all parties.

[Home at last]

#1. You guys weren't there to experience the way we all were treated by HAL. None of the OP's comment were at all exaggerated and I know there were people on that tour that sat in the hotel for more than 48 hours without a single answer given to them about anything.

#2. HAL representative Adam in Fairbanks is, in fact, the district manager. There is absolutely NO excuse for a client being told to rent a car and go somewhere else.

I was there. I know.

[NoNoNanette]

#1. You guys weren't there to experience the way we all were treated by HAL. None of the OP's comment were at all exaggerated and I know there were people on that tour that sat in the hotel for more than 48 hours without a single answer given to them about anything.

#2. HAL representative Adam in Fairbanks is, in fact, the district manager. There is absolutely NO excuse for a client being told to rent a car and go somewhere else.

I was there. I know.

It sounds absolutely horrid, and I'm sorry for all of your trouble.

It appears as though you're fighting a losing battle with this board's HAL APOLOGISTS. ;)

[happy cruzer]

This is a bit Off topic. But I had a misconception about booking the entire trip through the cruiseline that many may have and since the original post starts with everything was booked through HAL it's pretty much all HALs fault, I'll try to describe this area of confusion.

I have had it explained to me that the cruiseline is only providing a service when it does this much the same as a travel agent does. That it does not take on responsibility for the other carriers such as air. About the only way the cruiseline can help if something goes wrong is to hold the ship as long as possible but even this the port authorities have the ultimate control over. So when I used to think that if I booked air, transfers, and cruise with the cruiseline, that they would get me to the ship at their cost if anything went wrong. But that is not so therefore we hear all the stories of being stuck. Only travel insurance will cover most of the problems and even then it does not cover everything. But when things go wrong, the cruiseline and your travel agents can try to help you find workarounds. But if the cruiseline is not the actual carrier that you are on, then they are not responsible. One easy understand example is you have booked your air through HAL on American or somebody and the airport is snowed in four 3 days and you can't get to the ship, then only your travel insurance will help you; American will give you a ticket for another travel another time. But Hal won't give you a refund because you missed the boat.

I am not explaining this well. But it is very important on what part of the tour the OP was on, if he had not started a HAL operated tour then I can see where there would be lots of problems that might be out of HALs control. If he was on a HAL tour then yea, it's their responsibility to take care of him and make it right. But just booking it through HAL doesn't make it thier problem.

At least that is how it was explained to me. So I don't see any advantage of booking through HAL ,it you can find a cheaper price.

I'm sorry this got long.:eek:

[hammybee]

:

Happy Cruiser: You did a more than credible job of explaining the realities of travel and in effect, agency law. It is unfortunate when weather or events, beyond the control of anyone, ruin people's vacations. It's even worse when complicated inter-dependencies, human error, short fuses and what not, on the part of service providers, make an already bad situation, worse.

None of us know why it took so long to get passengers to the ship. None of us know what hole in the earth, luggage fell into. Maybe it's as simple as too many guests and too few methods of transportation and at the end of the day(S), some were going to have to wait it out. And I think we all feel badly for the passengers who had there vacations ruined.

It would have been swell if HAL chose to do some damage control after the fact, if for no other reason than to express genuine concern and advise those with Trip Interruption insurance to file a claim. It seems HAL missed the window of opportunity.

[Agua]

:confused: :mad: :eek: :mad: On Saturday, August 19th, 2006, heavy rains and mudslides blocked rail and road travel (main highway) between Denali and Anchorage. During Saturday and Sunday, HAL and Carnival tourists were herded into the "Gold room" in the Westmark Fairbanks Hotel, awaiting announcements that HAL staff promised to make. Fortunately, some HAL and Carnival guests received their plane or motor coach rides to Anchorage within 24 hours; unfortunately 29 guests of tour 12 were forgotten by HAL.

The 29 were not included on the AA plane manifest and denied air flight on Sunday AM. Even though 4 lists of the 29 names were provided to HAL staff, they still forgot what guests were to be on the Ryndam on Sunday PM. HAL staff promised that the 29 would not be left behind by the ship. However, 3 1/2 days later (Wed pm), the 29 were on the ship. No special concessions were provided to them for the 'on-call' waiting for further instructions, hauling carry-on (luggage sent to the ship previously) early morning travel with no breakfast, etc; unless, you think that $500.00 on-board ship credit, a bottle of wine and chocolate-dipped strawberries is a great offering. Trip-of-a-lifetime...ruined. Guest relations...ha ha! More like Holland America Lines, Where you Bound to be Forgotten and Treated like you are Invisible.

Just like in 2001, Space Odyssey, don't trust HAL!!!!! DO NOT TURN YOUR BACK!! Three thousand plus dollars better spent on road trips with the high cost of Gasoline! (Hey, I understand a person can drive through Canada to Alaska with $1000.00 in Gas money!)

[Sunshine91]

[quote=Home at last#2. HAL representative Adam in Fairbanks is, in fact, the district manager. There is absolutely NO excuse for a client being told to rent a car and go somewhere else.[/quote]

Would anyone have wanted Adam's job that week? Have any of you working in any customer service field ever gotten off the phone with a difficult customer & just really wanted to put your fist thru the wall? Or a stiff drink? Or worse? I'm just guessing here, but he was likely very frustrated with everything going on & the wrong thing came out of his mouth. We're all human & sometimes say the absolute wrong thing that we don't mean at the wrong time & regret it terribly. Not trying to excuse it, but perhaps offer an explanation.

That mudslide must have been frightening. Haven't read about any injuries here & that's a good thing. I feel bad for those that missed out on their holidays & then were stranded at the hotel. Probably felt like they got dumped on by the mud again. Hope everyone gets it all worked out to their satisfaction. Write that letter to Mr. Kruse. But come back here to CC to let us know what happens. I sure hope it doesn't put you off cruising.

[happy cruzer]

Hi, sunshine your post made me wonder under what circumstances would Adam's remark possibly be justified? I too work a reception type desk. And when I have customer go on and on and on somemore about a problem especially when it has been explained that there is nothing more that can be said or done to help them. It usually takes about 30 minutes of going over the same ground before I recommend that they try someplace else that they think will fit their needs better. Usually that gives them back the perpspective that they are asking for the impossible.

I AM NOT MAKING an excuse for Adam. I am just saying I know of one case where I might say if you can get yourself out of here quicker, go for it.

If the OP was on a HAL tour, I believe he absolutely deserves to be compensated for the things that happened to him.

[sail7seas]

You know what? That is such an obvious question. If someone is being compensated then why complain. Could it be that someone didn't have insurance? Its a reality that not every traveller takes out insurance so that could be one scenario.

Just for the sake of conversation.......

Sometimes the money is not the issue. Whether this cruiser had insurance and would receive funds to cover the part of the vacation he missed, may be of far less importance to him/her than the fact they might have traveled a long distance to get to Alaska. Perhaps there is little chance he/she can return some day. Perhaps this trip had a lot of sentimental investment? Etc Etc

Maybe the money was the least of what was painful about missing out on so much of his cruise. Maybe they aren't 'short on funds' and can easily absorb the financial factor.

[BeBeReader]

Stringreen,

I doubt that HAL will do anything to compensate you for your damages as you can see from the offer that you accept $500 in ship credits. My suggestion (I am an attorney) is that you send a letter restating this post (which is shorter than the other one) to HAL's CEO. Tell him that if you don't get a full refund for the cruise portion or credit for another cruise worth the same amount within 10 days, you will sue. Then sue.

If you have an attorney or friends who are attorneys, I am sure they will gladly go over the wording of your Complaint with you.

BeBe

[sail7seas]

I am Not an attorney but I think that in HAL's contract with guests, the venue for suit is Seattle, WA. That might be quite inconvenient for the OP. I wonder how many threats of suit and actual filing of suits HAL (all cruise lines) receive in a given year.

[happy cruzer]

Hi, when something goes wrong on a cruise, it usually takes time to get the compensation. The staff on board have very limited ability to provide compensation. The guys at corporate usually do that.

The example I know of first hand was a problem on Celebrity that made many passengers upset, meeting in the customer service area, petitions, calls to lawyers etc. We did get 50% off a future cruise but it happened 6 months after the fact.

I certainly expect that the OP will get more from HAL once corporate has done their due diligence but it may be awhile even if a lawyer is involved. I haven't seen that getting lawyer makes things happen faster.

I sincerely hope the OP is provided additional compensation but it may take awhile.

Sail, I agree the emotional loss may be the worse part. Our legal system though has been designed to put a dollar value on pain and suffering. So everything does tend to boil down to dollars. and that's exactly why the people who went through 3 1/2 days of uncertainity should be compensated additionally.

[DD]

I just wanted to express to the OP how badly I feel for him. It sounds like a terrible experience. I know that when people cruise, particularly to a destination like Alaska that is normally once-in-a-lifetime, expectations are so high. Those expectations were not met and I can't even begin to imagine how disappointed you must have been. I hope that, in the end, HAL makes this right. They are normally one of the absolute best cruiselines to deal with both from a TA perspective and as a passenger so I am hopeful that you will ultimately get satisfaction from them.

[sail7seas]

Happy cruzer...... I agree compensation seems to be in order here.

My comment was in reference to another poster saying that if the person received compensation from insurance, then why the complaining. I don't happen to agree that it is only about money as to why OP may 'still be unhappy' about the experience. Getting insurance reimbursement does not negate the sense of loss OP experienced.

But, yes....money is the only method to 'make whole'.

[happy cruzer]

We have been trying to help a passenger:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=406696

Were you on board? Your first post seemed to be mostly a flame and not an attempt for information or discussion. Hope you find what you needed in the other post. The search function will probably find you more info too.

[SanDiego Single]

I am glad you are home safe and sorry you had such a bad exprience. I would certainly be very upset with such awful treatment. But I love HAL so much and they offer me a single supplement so I am going to stay with them.

[BeBeReader]

A consumer with a complaint does not need to file where corporate headquarters of the corporation, here HAL, is located. HAL advertises on the internet. It contracted with Stringreen in the state where he lives, which is where he should file a complaint. I do not think that HAL will ignore a formal Complaint filed in a court of law. That is quite different from a complaining letter, which is easy to ignore.

BeBe Reader

[Copper10-8]

I'm assuming (never a good thing, I know) and without having looked at the OP's itinerary, that the cruise portion of his bad experience was a seven dayer, correct? He missed exactly one half of that cruise plus the entire land portion or am I misreading that?

[richwmn]

The choice of venue has many rules concerning it, but the mere fact of advertising on the internet is not one of them. Any language in the contract (in this case the cruise contract) would determine venue. Many large corporations place such wording into their contracts to restrict lawsuits to places favorable to them. If there is no such wording, in general a corporation can only be sued where they have a presence, such as an office or agent, just as an individual can only be sued, in general, in their home county. In the case of the cruise lines, this would include Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Miami, Ft Lauderdale, Norfolk, Boston and New York (and probably others where they have an agent).
IANAL!

[sail7seas]

A consumer with a complaint does not need to file where corporate headquarters of the corporation, here HAL, is located. HAL advertises on the internet. It contracted with Stringreen in the state where he lives, which is where he should file a complaint. I do not think that HAL will ignore a formal Complaint filed in a court of law. That is quite different from a complaining letter, which is easy to ignore.

BeBe Reader

I'm not an Attorney so can't be sure if this applies???

Quote from HAL contract we received as part of our document booklet:


"All disputes and matters whatsoever arising under, in connection with or incident to this contract, the cruise, the cruisetour, the HAL land trip or the HAL air package shall be litigated, if at all, in and before the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington at Seattle, or as to those lawsuits as to which the Federal Courts of the United States lack subject matter jurisdiction in the Courts of King County, State of Washington, USA, to the exclusion of all other courts."



Does that dictate Venue?

[richwmn]

I'm not an Attorney so can't be sure if this applies???

Quote from HAL contract we received as part of our document booklet:


"All disputes and matters whatsoever arising under, in connection with or incident to this contract, the cruise, the cruisetour, the HAL land trip or the HAL air package shall be litigated, if at all, in and before the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington at Seattle, or as to those lawsuits as to which the Federal Courts of the United States lack subject matter jurisdiction in the Courts of King County, State of Washington, USA, to the exclusion of all other courts."



Does that dictate Venue?

Yes -- that is the language I was referring to in my earlier post.

[hammybee]

All cruises and cruise tours are sold subject to the Terms and Conditions of the contract.These contracts are written to favor the carrier. HAL's contract is consistent with those of all major cruise lines.

Seattle is the venue.

I am not a lawyer. I do however, read contracts. The onus is on the passenger to prove that HAL was negligent or willfully at fault for the delay. Given the weather situation, this may be hard to do.

If this had been my vacation, I would pursue it with corporate instead of legal.

[BeBeReader]

Posters, you make some good points. However ......

I would bring the lawsuit anyway in my own state court and argue that it is a contract of adhesion. I don't know if the venue restriction would be upheld anyway in this instance. It depends upon the court and the judge. In any event, HAL would have to come in to defend the motion or judgment would be entered on default in favor of the claimant, here Stingreen. Before that, I wager HAL would settle up.

Also, on another point about the measure of damages. Half of the cruise was missed, but the most important sights were missed. Much more value than 1/2 was lost. There was a lot of aggravation and annoyance and seemingly bad faith. As a result, I would ask for the value of the entire trip.

BeBe

[BumperII]

Has anyone noticed that we are now fifty plus replies to the OP without further response from him/her? We used to call that ring and run. There is not one thing that happened here that will keep any of us from cruising again and again.:D

[cruiseco]

re: Venue for suits:

There's been a lot of rulings on this very issue. So far, the cruise lines have won most of them and the courts have upheld their claim that any lawsuits have to be filed in the venue that's listed in the contract.

But every once in a while a judge rules the other way, so like many things it really can depend on the mood of the judge who's handling the case.

[BeBeReader]

I'm thinking the OP is too busy to respond because he is writing a Complaint to be filed maybe tomorrow.:D

[richwmn]

HAL's lawyers would not have to appear before your court. They would file a response asking for change of venue based on the contract and chances are almost certain that it would be granted. You would then have to refile in Washington. In addition, even if you filed in your local court, you would have to serve the papers to HAL's designated representative which would be either in Seattle, or the state they or incorporated in (lots of corporations use Delaware).

[Bluejay2]

I'm one of those new posters who found this site in the aftermath of HAL's inability to respond well to its stranded land tours after the mudslide in Alaska. My husband and I were part of the 29 of Tour 12 (all cruise passengers on the Ryndam) who were forgotten in Fairbanks, when the rescue plan was to fly the whole tour out so we could still meet the ship. Some of us found ourselves left off the Alaska Airlines passenger list. Prior posts have spoken to the several following days of confusion and mishandling by HAL. My husband and I describe this vacation as a mixed bag. On the one hand we have wonderful memories of the remaining cruise days once we finally rejoined the ship. On the other hand, the stress and exhaustion of the lost days colored everything and meant my coming home with a cold like I've not had for years. And I hardly every get sick. And yes, we are putting together letters to send to HAL and are also consulting with our AAA TA and getting good help there. So here's an added dimension of all this that's worth putting out there for folks to think about.

It was our passenger group staying together that gave us all the strength and grace to advocate for ourselves with patience, courteousness, firmness, clarity, and humor. At first we didn't know who even made up our remnant, as we were scattered among the swirling mass of people. Our first eyeballing of the group as a whole was on the coach to Fairbanks back from the ill-fated trip to the airport. Then we quickly lost sight of one another in the new mob back in the hotel conference room. However, we found our way together and instinctively started to watch out for each other. When the realization came that we'd really been dropped from HAL consciousness, we made posters we began to hold up in front of the HAL staff whenever they entered the room. We exchanged room numbers and one person became a list-handler, helping us track one another. We wouldn't let any transport coaches leave for our next destination unless we were crystal clear we were all on board. Some of our folk needed medications no longer available to them as dosages ran out. Others acted as advocates with them to ensure their situation was solved. One family was travelling with a child. Others helped with child-friendly entertainment. One of us became the spokesperson for the group with HAL service people, keeping the pressure on and the clarity of what we needed from HAL front and center. When HAL tried to divide us up, suggesting they would call us individually in our rooms, we stationed part of us in a group near their desk while others covered our hotel room phones. What might have been an overwhelming and lonely situation for any of us in our small family or single unit became possible when we pulled together as a group. And we had clout to move things along perhaps even more quickly then might have happened, who knows. We are continuing to compare notes and help each other with these next steps. Thanks for the thoughts many of you are adding in as well.

[hammybee]

This post provided more clairty than the previous. Perhaps time has helped redcue some of the understandable emotional distress.

I am curious if the flight in question departed with empty seats or if those seats were already taken by others, perhaps the real reason why the names were not on the list? It seems to me that this may be a matter bad weather, too few seats and too many guests and no matter what, 29 were going to be left behind. I am sorry that you were one of them.

I am also curious about the flight availability between the one where your names were not on the list and the actual flight you and the other 28 guests were finally able to board. Were there any other scheduled departures? If so, were there seats available on those flights?

And lastly, I am curious about what you think HAL could have done differently that might have caused a different outcome under the circumstances.

[middle-aged mom]

Wow, Bluejay, what an experience. :( Thanks for a very articulate, thoughtful, credible, and yet incredible, post. Kudos to all of you for sticking together. That you should even have had to resort to this type of defensive organization, on your vacation, for crying out loud, is awful to contemplate. There is some good advice being dispensed right now on a similar thread here on the HAL board, entitled, "Boo to Holland America Alaska", which you may have already read. PLEASE let us know the resolution of this situation, even if it doesn't materialize for quite a while. My sincere sympathies to you and the other passengers who went through this experience together.

Karin

[hammybee]

Thank you for the additional clairity. I just finished responding to Ajua's post.

It certainly sounds as though your advocay for each other made an otherwise unfortunate situation more bearable.

Would you mind taking a look at the questions I posed to Ajua and let us know your perspective. I am curious and understand your sense of loss of time and experience in Alaska.

Thank you.

[hammybee]

It's chilly and raining her in Chicagoland and I have, for the moment, nothing better to do, than run interference between the several active posts on this topic.

I think the OPs of this and related threads need to answer, to the best of their abilities, the questions I posed to Ajua a short while ago.

As for now, based upon the information available, the weather situation in Alaska seems to be the root of the problem. And no matter what, at least 29 guests of various cruise lines were going to be seriously inconvenienced and dissappointed.

[Copper10-8]

All cruises and cruise tours are sold subject to the Terms and Conditions of the contract.These contracts are written to favor the carrier. HAL's contract is consistent with those of all major cruise lines.

Seattle is the venue.

I am not a lawyer. I do however, read contracts. The onus is on the passenger to prove that HAL was negligent or willfully at fault for the delay. Given the weather situation, this may be hard to do.

If this had been my vacation, I would pursue it with corporate instead of legal.

I'm with you Hammy! Before jumping on the seemingly always popular lawsuit bandwagon full speed ahead, why not see what kind of mutually agreed upon solution you can get from contacting HAL corporate. You can always see the Judge later

[krewzin]

It appears as though you're fighting a losing battle with this board's HAL APOLOGISTS. ;)

-1

'Er...Losing battle?':confused: All I've read is a bunch of folks who've been quite supportive while being very sympathetic.

I see the glass as 'half full.'

:D

[HeatherInFlorida]

.............. that the cruise portion of his bad experience was a seven dayer, correct? He missed exactly one half of that cruise plus the entire land portion or am I misreading that?

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the cruise portion was a 3 or 4 day thing and he never got on the ship at all.

Beyond that, I'm keeping my mouth shut this time:) .

[Copper10-8]

[quote=HeatherInFlorida]I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the cruise portion was a 3 or 4 day thing and he never got on the ship at all.

Beyond that, I'm keeping my mouth shut this tim

Looking at HAL's website, Tour #12 "Classic glacier discovery cruise tour to Denali National Park" is a 12-day tour (five days on land and a 7-day cruise)

[hammybee]

Based upon the postings from Ajua and Bluejay, it sounds like they might have missed half the cruise and HAL has given them $500 in form of credit for the days lost on board. I also think that HAL picked up the cost of interim lodging, during the delay.

And again, I think we can all appreciate what it must of have been like to be oneof the minimum of 29 people who had their vacation plans disrupted by weather in Alaska. I mean no disrespect when I say, it sure sucked to be them.

[Bluejay2]

Okay Hammybee, let's see if I can answer some of your questions about airflights. By the way, for further info on how the 29 of us dealt with all this, please see my post Passengers Stick Together. We actually have a great story to tell in that regard!

There was no way for any of us to know if there were empty seats on the first plane we were all supposed to be on, when it took off. However, some people were still making it on and some not, so I'm not sure that it was just a last section of us in line, for instance, that were dropped. It seemed more random than that. As to other airline flights, we did learn that four extra planes were brought in from Anchorage to help that day, and that they were, indeed, leaving with empty seats. It appeared to be far more of a computer or transcribing error than an error due to planes being overloaded. Also, if it were an overload problem, and there were immediate plans in place to get us out, therefore, on the next plane (of which there were several, as I just said), that certainly did not occur.

As to what HAL could have done better, here are several thoughts. For one, in order to track the different tour groups that were needing alternative travel arrangements, they could have asked that we each locate ourselves together in our group in different parts of the room, so that the HAL reps would know instantly who was still there and who had been helped. They had several extra reps available to them, and they could have assigned them particular groups to be a liason with, so that we, as one of the groups, and they, could have had more simple and clear communication flow. That way, perhaps, no group would have gotten lost to them the way ours did. They also could have been clear and upfront about what the real situation was. Instead, they dissembled, fudged, held out false hope. They could have been up front and said something like, "We're in a rotten, confusing situation that has disrupted everyone. We're working to get you out of here, but won't know anything for a couple of hours. Go, take a walk to see such and such museum and check back with us a x o'clock and we'll try to have something for you by then." and at least we would have been freed up to get a breath of fresh air, encouraged to make the best of things and see a bit of Fairbanks. Instead, we were not allowed to leave the conference room. When they decided to keep us overnight again, they could have said, "Go get dinner and some sleep, we'll be back in touch tomorrow" morning instead of saying, "Go to your rooms, we might call you at any time for a red eye flight." The truth is, they shut down the Holland America Desk later that night and didn't return to it until 6:00 a.m. Meanwhile, a number of us hardly slept at all waiting for them to call us at any time. A lot of it is simple public relations stuff, and some of it is just how to organize a roomful of various groupings so they can be dealt with logically, honestly and respectfully under difficult circumstances.
Bluejay2

[hammybee]

I am hanging onto every word of this and I did read your post, "Passengers Stick Together". And again, I appreciate your clairity. Can you humor a few more questions?

1) How do you know that some planes departed with empty seats? And for the sake of discussion, if they did, who determined it was better for the 29 to stay or go as a group, rather than "cherry pick" which passengers would get out of Dodge, so to speak?

Your assessment of things that HAL could have done differently seems logical and appropriate. To be held in suspence like this, must have made an already bad situation so much worse.

2) If I am understanding all the different threads on this topic, I have the perception that HAL may have given each group member or is it cabin, a $500 credit for the days missed onboard. I am assuming HAL paid for the interim hotel and food. Is this correct?

3) If you were HAL, and this moneky was on your back, what would you do right now?

[BeBeReader]

HAL's lawyers would not have to appear before your court. They would file a response asking for change of venue based on the contract and chances are almost certain that it would be granted. You would then have to refile in Washington. In addition, even if you filed in your local court, you would have to serve the papers to HAL's designated representative which would be either in Seattle, or the state they or incorporated in (lots of corporations use Delaware).

In NJ where I practice, HAL's lawyers would indeed have to appear. HAL would have to hire local counsel in NJ and they would be required to "appear," which means to file papers. These papers would cost thousands of dollars to file. They would include a brief and affidavit -- not so simple. HAL's lawyers might have to make a personal appearance in court on the return date of the motion -- it is likely they would be required to do so. What makes you so sure you know the result of the motion? Certain states, such as NJ, are very consumer friendly. Finally, there is no big deal to serve out of state. In NJ, we have long arm service by mail anywhere in the US.

[Pete Jackson]

The people running these tours are seasonal workers who may be getting paid little beyond getting the tour for free. Hence, they are likely not going to be able to handle a complex emergency like this, even if HAL corporate has been trying their best from Seattle.

Since the cruise line continuously saves money this way, the least they can do for the group of 29 is to give them a free 7-day Alaska cruise in the same cabin category with no date restriction! (After all, this was high season).
Or, alternatively, refund these pax half the cruise fare paid. Certainly, other Carnival lines, namely Cunard and Princess, have recently given passengers free replacement cruises when most of them have endured less inconvenience than these 29.

[Bramcruiser]

I'm sorry to hear it happen but the OP should be aware this topic has already been hashed on two other threads. I'm ashamed that two people instantly attacked the OP right off the bat and one actually accused the OP as being someone else posting under another guise. We have had this hashed out previously how the established instantly attack newcomers and I once again say we must open the lines of communications between all sides.

Agua, its obvious now that there was a breakdown of communications and customer service between HAL and its service providers and I think there was a nightmare for anyone caught in it all. That has been established. This is not typical of HAL though. I agree HAL can screw up so won't eagerly defend them as they walk on water - they only sail on it. So, maybe the best thing is to write to HAL's head office in a strongly worded letter. Letters do far much better than any phone call.

Good luck. And don't feel wrong for posting here either. Some of us just want to guide you in the proper direction.

David

[serendipity1499]

Considering more than ONE individual suffered through this experience, I think it's a bit harsh to accuse the OP of being deceptive.

This is a prime example of how HAL apologists/loyalists intimidate new CC members. Shame on you. :(

I second that Nanette and Harsh is not the word for it..It's Shameful!...

I guess you could call me a HAL Loyalist as we will have our 100 days on HAL in a couple of months....However, I'm sometimes ashamed of the way some new people are treated on this board! Ok flame me if you will... We love the HAL service on board & have never had a problem, but let's face it sometimes problems happen & it's no fun for the person who is of the receiving end!.

johnlcruise.. Agree this is no way to treat a New Poster.:mad: .I've been on this board for many years & I don't know if it's the same poster, so tell me how can you be so sure..And if you are so positive it's the same person why don't you report it to the Host as we are told to do instead of making nasty accusations!:mad: They can handle it better than any of us..Follow the CC rules!

Lets face it there were 29 people involved in this fiasco..Don't you think, if a few of the 29 people knew about this board they would be sure to tell others..Many more of them might eventually post? Or do you think they were in their own little worlds whiling away the time in the "Gold Room" of the Hotel filled with hundreds of people..

I've been in the Travel field for a long time & know what can happen if in-experienced agents are trying to handle hundreds of stranded passengers.. Where were all the Supervisors? I don't know the answer but if this happened to me I would be rip-roaring mad & might also post the same thing..

Agua..Hope you will receive some positive thoughts & suggestions from this board..For one thing I suggest writing the CEO a clear, concise, non-emotional letter with just the facts..Try to keep it at one page, although know it's often hard to do..Tell him what you expect HAL to do in the way of compensation for your lost days....Keep in mind that you did receive $500 OBC, but if you don't feel that was enough tell him what you think is fair..

Please don't think we are all like this...Most of the posters on this board welcome new posters..It's really is not going to be very helpful to you by re-hashing this here unless others can come up with better non-accusatory suggestions..

Good luck..Betty

[HeatherInFlorida]

John, I misunderstood the post then. I just took the post at face value and never take the time to check HAL's website. The way he spoke, I thought he'd missed everything.:o

BeBe, could be wrong about this too (but I don't think so). This situation came up before here and if I'm not mistaken it's in the cruise contract that any lawsuits have to be filed and litagation take place in Seattle. If I remember correctly, someone actually posted the wording from the contract.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong;) .

And why is everyone so quick to jump to lawsuits? This hasn't even been taken up directly with HAL's corporate office yet. How can anyone take the leap of assuming they won't do well by these people?

[serendipity1499]

David we were composing at the same time (I take much longer to type & correct my posts) Good thoughts & well said..:)

However, please don't compare HAL with other cruise lines which might be part of the Carnival conglomerate..Carnival does not dictate to HAL..They are a separate company & free to offer whatever compensation they want..

Betty

[BeBeReader]

The assumption that HAL will not agree to provide just compensation is based upon behavior to date. All that was offered was $500 in ship credit -- which doesn't amount to $500 real dollars. You could gamble that away very rapidly. Moreover, $500 doesn't begin to compensate the victims of HAL's negligent behavior. For some, this may have been the trip of a lifetime. In other words, as they say, "PRICELESS." The value of "priceless" is not $500 in ship credit.

[richwmn]

In NJ where I practice, HAL's lawyers would indeed have to appear. HAL would have to hire local counsel in NJ and they would be required to "appear," which means to file papers. These papers would cost thousands of dollars to file. They would include a brief and affidavit -- not so simple. HAL's lawyers might have to make a personal appearance in court on the return date of the motion -- it is likely they would be required to do so. What makes you so sure you know the result of the motion? Certain states, such as NJ, are very consumer friendly. Finally, there is no big deal to serve out of state. In NJ, we have long arm service by mail anywhere in the US.

BeBe -- In response, your first sentence is a simple repeat of mine. I said they would file papers, you said 'they would be required to "appear", which means to file papers' -- your words. How are these two different? If filing a brief and an affidavit would cost "thousands of dollars", our legal system is more flawed than I thought.

It is my impression that this type of administrative detail is handled regularly through paperwork without any "personal appearance" which you admitted HAL's lawyers "MIGHT" have to make.

What makes me so certain of the outcome? Two things. 1. Many "contracts", not just cruise contracts have such governing language, which from my reading is routinely upheld. If it were not, the contracts would omit the clause. 2. Look at post #53 (i think) where someone else mentions that these clauses are routinely upheld.

I agree that it is easy to serve papers out of state, I have acted as a process server for several out of state companies. I only mentioned it as an additional requirement for consideration.

As I said before IANAL! What is your status?

Heather -- sail (i believe) -- quoted the terms of the cruise contract around post #50

[Home at last]

There were many more than 29 people affected by all of this. The OPs ship was not the only one involved. A very conservative estimate of the number of paxs dumped in Fairbanks was 250!!!

A ship credit from HAL should not be acceptable. I know they want all of us to cruise again. But this has left such a bad taste in many mouths that we simply want nothing more to do with HAL (or any of the other cruise lines under the Carnival umbrella).

I was there. I don't want to cruise with them again.

[BeBeReader]

Rchwmn,

I congratulate you because I previously thought you might be a lawyer from the glibness of your previous post in this thread. However, now I know that you are not because you assume that all language in a contract will be upheld regardless of the circumstances. Yes, contracts are enforceable. But language can be stricken for various reasons. This is why all law students study the complex law of contracts. This is where the practice of law comes in. It is not as simple as you think it is.

I wanted to point out the way I think Stringreen should go with this in order to get prompt action. He can do this pro se, that is, without a lawer (WAL). Only trying to help someone who has been treated outrageously. :)

By the way, why the name "Rchwmn"? Are you Wmn or a Mn?

[sail7seas]

There were many more than 29 people affected by all of this. The OPs ship was not the only one involved. A very conservative estimate of the number of paxs dumped in Fairbanks was 250!!!

A ship credit from HAL should not be acceptable. I know they want all of us to cruise again. But this has left such a bad taste in many mouths that we simply want nothing more to do with HAL (or any of the other cruise lines under the Carnival umbrella).

I was there. I don't want to cruise with them again.

It sounds like it was a terrible experience and I am sorry for all of you who endured it.

If HAL knows they have lost you, why would they make any offer at all?

If the 'demand letter' says, I never want to sail with HAL again, logic says....Well, they're gone so no reason to try and make them happy now.

IF someone writes and states all the facts of what they endured and make a reasonable 'demand' and states......we'd really like to try HAL again, isn't there more incentive to try to make these folks happy?

A $500 shipboard credit does not sound like a good solution to me, though. JMHO.....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also to our attorneys here discussing potential litigation..... While HAL may be subjected to whatever legal bills (though they most assuredly have in-house/retained counsel)......

The Plaintiff is also running up legal bills.
While the clock ticks on billable hours to HAL, unless they represent themselves or their brother/sister ( or such) gives them free legal, the billable hour clock is ticking for Plaintiff as well.

In the scheme of things, these small suits are not particularly worrisome to HAL I wouldn't think.

[Copper10-8]

S7S, that last paragraph sounds like Mr. S7S climbed behind the PC;)

[richwmn]

Rchwmn,

I congratulate you because I previously thought you might be a lawyer from the glibness of your previous post in this thread. However, now I know that you are not because you assume that all language in a contract will be upheld regardless of the circumstances. Yes, contracts are enforceable. But language can be stricken for various reasons. This is why all law students study the complex law of contracts. This is where the practice of law comes in. It is not as simple as you think it is.

I wanted to point out the way I think Stringreen should go with this in order to get prompt action. He can do this pro se, that is, without a lawer (WAL). Only trying to help someone who has been treated outrageously. :)

By the way, why the name "Rchwmn"? Are you Wmn or a Mn?

In my first post on this subject I used the acromyn IANAL, just to insure no one made that association. In fact, you are wrong when you assume that I believe that all language in a contract is enforcable. That is why most contracts include a severability clause. I do feel that because of the number of contracts which include the "venue" clause, and not just cruise contracts, it will generally be upheld. You have not, however, addressed the general rule that a party has to be sued where it has a "presence", ie an office.

to your last, it refers to my last name.

[Bramcruiser]

Thanks for understanding the situation for what it is. I agree that you need to write those letters and think you did what any should do in a similar situation. Corporations just are not good at working through a melt down and there have been sufficient number of posts to suggest that this was exactly a melt down. I loved how you figured out how the lot of you should be looking out for each other as a group. Its probably what got you all through without it getting worse. Thanks for your story.

[sail7seas]

S7S, that last paragraph sounds like Mr. S7S climbed behind the PC;)

:) Nah, John........

I thought that one up all by myself. I guess it's contagious. ;)

[Copper10-8]

:) Nah, John........

I thought that one up all by myself. I guess it's contagious. ;)

Impressed the heck out of me;)

[HoneyGV]

HAL's lawyers would not have to appear before your court. They would file a response asking for change of venue based on the contract and chances are almost certain that it would be granted. You would then have to refile in Washington. In addition, even if you filed in your local court, you would have to serve the papers to HAL's designated representative which would be either in Seattle, or the state they or incorporated in (lots of corporations use Delaware).

If the plaintiff pursues a case because he doesn't get satisfaction from HAL, and if HAL's attorneys feel the plaintiff has a case, they will settle out of court.

I doubt it will get even that far. IMHO.

[BeBeReader]

Rchwmn,

I still don't get the thing about your name, but I will move on.

You are very impressive. You should be a lawyer. Seriously. I mentioned the personal jurisdiction issue in one of my first posts on this thread. This is a complex issue that would take some research, but my educated guess is that there would certainly be personal jurisdiction over HAL in Stingreen's state based upon advertising, etc. An actual office is not necessary. HAL has availed itself of Stingreen's home forum. You can research Supreme Court cases on this issue. Be my guest.

As to the poster who suggests that HAL could use in-house attorneys in court, this wouldn't work unless HAL has in-house attorneys in every state. Not likely. Even then, many in-house counsel do not go to court. They are corporate attorneys and not litigators. As far as legal costs to the plaintiff, I said very clearly that Stingreen should go pro se. Rchwmn knows that this means that he should represent himself, which would cost him nothing but his time and the cost of filing -- pretty minimal if the setting is is small claims court. The substantial expenditures would be for HAL to make, which is exactly why HAL would settle rather than litigate. That is the strategy here.

BeBe

[bdcbbq]

HAL's legal counsel doesn't care one whit about what is right or wrong. They have one job, and that is to protect the assets of the corporation. The rest is all fluff. For claims like this, they will advise to settle as cheap as possible and avoid going to court.

I'm betting corporate will provide most people with some sort of reasonable compensation. They just haven't had time to figure out what that is. The people who contact reasonably will get the best deal. Those who rant and rave will get the minimum and if they are a lost customer anyway, so what. The people who don't say anything will get little or nothing. But those who factually complain in a polite manner will get the best deal.

[richwmn]

Rchwmn,

I still don't get the thing about your name, but I will move on.

You are very impressive. You should be a lawyer. Seriously. I mentioned the personal jurisdiction issue in one of my first posts on this thread. This is a complex issue that would take some research, but my educated guess is that there would certainly be personal jurisdiction over HAL in Stingreen's state based upon advertising, etc. An actual office is not necessary. HAL has availed itself of Stingreen's home forum. You can research Supreme Court cases on this issue. Be my guest.

As to the poster who suggests that HAL could use in-house attorneys in court, this wouldn't work unless HAL has in-house attorneys in every state. Not likely. Even then, many in-house counsel do not go to court. They are corporate attorneys and not litigators. As far as legal costs to the plaintiff, I said very clearly that Stingreen should go pro se. Rchwmn knows that this means that he should represent himself, which would cost him nothing but his time and the cost of filing -- pretty minimal if the setting is is small claims court. The substantial expenditures would be for HAL to make, which is exactly why HAL would settle rather than litigate. That is the strategy here.

BeBe

Since this is a little OT at this point, if you wish, and I would enjoy it, we can continue with private email -- richwmn@gmail.com

Rich

[Bluejay2]

A quick response to Hammybee's further questions:
1) We know there were planes with empty seats from some of the airport people talking with us about all the confusion and expressing sympathy while we were all getting processed when we returned the next day for the flight we finally did take. As to who got to go and who didn't, or why some were kept as a group or not, I haven't the foggiest! I do think, as the days sorted out, the various tours were being kept together when possible, thus our remnant of Tour 12 continued to be kept together.

2)Yes, our overnights in the hotels were booked and covered by HAL. The meals were not all covered. There were a couple of breakfasts we missed because of the early morning transports. And there were some meals we covered on our own and some for which vouchers were provided. On the first day of all this, when we became separated from those who got on the plane, the hotel had a lunch buffet going for all the various stranded folk.

3)If it was money on my back? I'd want to reimburse the people for what they missed on my watch. I put it that way because there is the one point of the unexpected mudslide. But once HAL woke us for the alternate flight they claimed we were on, only to have us among the missing, it became their responsibility, their watch. The rest of Tour 12 had a full cruise. The 29 of us left did not.

Again, my thanks for the various suggestions from the experienced cruisers. They've been most helpful
Bluejay2

[hammybee]

With all due respect, we all feel bad for those whose Alaskan Tour/Cruise plans went astray. I thought this might lighten the load:

TOUR 12 Theme Song

Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale,
a tale of a fateful trip,
That started from this frigid place
to board a HAL ship.

The mate was not a HAL man,
the skipper clueless and meek
Tour 12 set off that fateful day
For a 3 hour tour, a 3 hour tour…

The weather started getting rough,
Tour 12’s plans astray

If not for the courage of the fearless crew,
more luggage would have been lost, more luggage would have been lost.

Twenty-nine of Tour 12 , stuck on ground, of this uncharted place
With Gilligan, the Skipper too
The Millionaire, and his Wife,
The Movie Star, the Professor and Mary Ann,
here at Stranded Tour 12 Place

So this is a tale of our castaways,
they’re here for a long, long time.
They have to make the best of things
It’s an uphill climb.

The first mate and his skipper too
may not have done their best
to make their tour guests comfortable
in the Alaskan Wilderness

No luggage, no meds no rail cars
only a few bare necessities
Like a mealsy shipboard credit,
as ordinary as can be.

So join us here, each week my friend
You’re sure to get a smile
From 29 stranded castaways
Here on Tour Twelve isle.

[serendipity1499]

David my apologies..It was not you who compared Carnival to HAL but Pete Jackson..Pete the post to Bramcruiser was really to answer you..I think you are right..Hal should do much better than $500 & some meals & hotel for the loss to these Psgrs..

For some reason I've gotten peoples names all mixed up here & decide it's time to go to bed..It's been a long day..

Hope everyone has a good night..:) Betty

[RuthC]

(the sound of hands clapping) Bravo! Encore!
Nice work, hammybee. That was cute.

[Stringreen]

What things happen???? - Holland America screws up by loosing my name and almost 30 others? This costs thousands of dollars and untold hardship - We bought something and it wasn't produced. That to me is theft - or fraud - or something legal that shouldn't have happened. Boo to Holland America

[Stringreen]

Stressed? - I'm not stressed - I'm damaged - and so are the others on my tour 12. How you possibly could minimized the expended money, the bad planning, belittling is truly remarkable. I wish this to happen to you so you could experience what we went through.

[gipress2]

Everthing you are reading about the lost 29 is true as I am part of that group.

Weather was not the problem. Miss management and lying by Holland America caused 29 people to lose their dream vacation. It was our 26th anniversary. It is a sad thing that this company feels no compassion to their customers are the backbone to do the right thing by taking responseabilty for their actions.

How can they use the word America in their company name and not care about their customers is beyond me.

[gipress2]

Everthing you are reading about the lost 29 is true as I am part of that group.

Weather was not the problem. Miss management and lying by Holland America caused 29 people to lose their dream vacation. It was our 26th anniversary. It is a sad thing that this company feels no compassion to their customers are the backbone to do the right thing by taking responseabilty for their actions.

How can they use the word America in their company name and not care about their customers is beyond me.

[dforeigner]

The best way you can learn about any organization is when things go wrong, Mr. Murphy makes an appearance and/or the proverbial "droppings" hit the fan.

Ah, good old Mr. Murphy! He always shows up at the least convenient opportunity.

[happy cruzer]

It sounds like it was a terrible experience and I am sorry for all of you who endured it.

If HAL knows they have lost you, why would they make any offer at all?

If the 'demand letter' says, I never want to sail with HAL again, logic says....Well, they're gone so no reason to try and make them happy now.

IF someone writes and states all the facts of what they endured and make a reasonable 'demand' and states......we'd really like to try HAL again, isn't there more incentive to try to make these folks happy?

A $500 shipboard credit does not sound like a good solution to me, though. JMHO.....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also to our attorneys here discussing potential litigation..... While HAL may be subjected to whatever legal bills (though they most assuredly have in-house/retained counsel)......

The Plaintiff is also running up legal bills.
While the clock ticks on billable hours to HAL, unless they represent themselves or their brother/sister ( or such) gives them free legal, the billable hour clock is ticking for Plaintiff as well.

In the scheme of things, these small suits are not particularly worrisome to HAL I wouldn't think.

Sail you made good points. HAL will only come up with more for a goodwill settlement. If the OP is not offering to settle in good will and let the issue die with all forgotten and forgiven, I don't see much more coming than has already been given. Their contract lets them off the hook, I imagine they can CYA pretty good with the weather and probably most of the flights were booked in Alaska. So if the OP is not approaching them such that there is something in the situation to save, I agree they may just let time and money play this one out.

[elmorejj]

LOVE IT!!! and couldn`t help singing along.....way to go!!.........jean:cool:

[sail7seas]

Very cute.........

[krewzin]

Yes, they probably do know each other.

I believe that the group has banded together to get an appropriate response from HAL for this major screwup, thus they are trying to get the word out anyway that they can.

So several of the group is posting the incident and their experiences on cruise forums in order to be heard.

[OldCodger73]

Basically, if the facts are as stated [note: I'm not casting doubt on the original poster, only giving the usual disclaimer one sees everywhere] then there are two issues here.

The first is the mudslide which caused a disruption in the land tour. This is an act of God and no reimbursement is justified.

However, the failure of HAL or its representatives to include the people from the land tour on the list it sent to the airline and seemingly forgetting them, causing them to miss one-half of their cruise, does in my mind call for some form of restitution. To me, either refunding one-half of the cost of the cruise or a 50% reduction in cost in the same class cabin they had booked on a future 7 - 10 day cruise should be adequate.

I also feel that bringing the WTC into this thread is inappropriate, off topic and bears no relevance to the subject matter of the thread.

[hammybee]

3)If it was money on my back? I'd want to reimburse the people for what they missed on my watch. I put it that way because there is the one point of the unexpected mudslide. But once HAL woke us for the alternate flight they claimed we were on, only to have us among the missing, it became their responsibility, their watch. The rest of Tour 12 had a full cruise. The 29 of us left did not.

Again, my thanks for the various suggestions from the experienced cruisers. They've been most helpful
Bluejay2

My typo. I meant MONKEY, as in problem.

Another poster from Group 12 mentioned that there were about 250 passengers, of various cruise lines, who were in the same situation, and by this, I inferred that more than 29 people had their vacations disrupted. If this is true, does it seem possible that this may have been a case of too many passengers and too few seats on airplanes and at the end of the day, some were going to have their vacations disrupted, no matter what?

I live near O'Hare (ORD) airport in the Chicago area. When Chicago has weather related problems it sometimes creates havoc with worldwide schedules. When this happens, passengers miss original and connecting flights to their destinations.

It is not uncommon for passengers to be separated from their luggage.
It is not uncommon for passengers, to sleep at ORD, and occasionally for more than a night. It is not uncommon for passengers to be sent on multiple wild goose chases, airline to airline, in hopes that they might get a connecting flight, that will eventually get them to their destination. And it is not uncommon to see masses of humanity at ORD, ready to kill.

Some of them become unreasonable. Some of the airline employees become neyond testy. It's a dynamic situation and there is a heck of a lot of misinformation. Some passengers are more fortunate than others, and are able to snag a seat on an already overbooked scheduled flight, once things start moving again.

But some of these passengers end up missing business meetings, interviews, escorted tours and cruises. The meetings happen, someone else gets the job and tours and cruises leave on schedule. And all of this happens despite knowing that people are stuck, somewhere, in the airline systems. And when this happens, it sucks. The passengers with Trip Interruption Insurance are the ones that get compensated for their ruined vacation plans and lost luggage, above and beyond the customary.

Ancorage/Fairbanks is not ORD, and this is both good and bad. I do not know what kind of planes these were. So many planes in Alaska are smaller than the typical commercial planes, most of us fly. Given their size, they are highly sensitive to weight, combined passenger and cargo, and sometimes this is why some of the planes, some of the time, are at capasity, when there are empty seats.

Oh Bluejay2, I am not trying to diminish your experience. I think most of us understand how frustrating and dissappointing this whole deal was and how things were compounded with the uncertainty of information.

I am not a lawyer. I do not know, with certainty, if there is resourse for your distress. Planes, boats, trains, buses, tours and cruises do not have responsibility when weather creates havoc with their plans. That HAL gave those effected a $500 credit may be more than most planes, boats, trains, buses, tours and cruises would do under the circumstances. The folk who end up sleeping at ORD would love to have any form of compensation for their aggravation, discomfort and missed opportunities.

I can also understand that such credits may not be desirable given many in the Group of 29 are probably disinclined to cruise again or if they are, it 's probably not going to be with HAL. Is there a chance that HAL will give passengers cash? I have no idea. I hope that most of the 250 people had Trip Interuption Insurance because this is what such policies are there for.

If it were me.....I probably would have rented a car/van and opted out of the group air thing, if roads were passable. Thats just me. I used to fly too much and know that I am usually better off being my own captain, than relying upon an already strained system to sort it all out.

I hope all of you keep us posted on how this all turns out. In the end, I am grateful that you are all safe and a few of you were able to put the whole unfortunate mess behind you and not let it spoil your entire experience. Peace, love and joy to all.

[Copper10-8]

Hang on, were going downhill fast folks!:rolleyes:

"Acts of nature" - no one's fault
Multiple screw ups by HAL-Westours personnel to try to get the "Fairbanks 29" to their ship in Seward - no doubt!
HAL should be compensating them for that and let's move on

Leave 9/11 out of it!:mad:

[serendipity1499]

I almost wonder if Agua knows Stringreen? Or at least on the same "first time posters" team.

Of course they know each other & they may very well be on the same team as you put it..Haven't you been reading the same story from at least 4 in the same group?

As I said in a previous post "Lets face it there were 29 people involved in this fiasco..Don't you think, if a few of the 29 people knew about this board they would be sure to tell others..Many more of them might eventually post? Or do you think they were in their own little worlds whiling away the time in the "Gold Room" of the Hotel filled with hundreds of people"

How can 29 people in the same group not know each other after being the only ones left of hundreds of passengers & having spent many hours in one room..And finally being put on the same flight together & spending more days together on the ship!

Wouldn't you be posting, as a newbie, if you had found out about this board from your fellow passengers in the group that was left behind?
Some of them are venting as well as looking for suggestions from experienced cruisers on this board.. Why would anyone question how they know each other or if they are on the same team? Isn't it better for them to get suggestions from us & follow through than to take other extreme measures..

So what if it's been discussed before..Why can't we answer the same question a hundred times..It's like new posters coming on & asking about the dress code & those that say "Here we go again"..If you don't want to answer, why not skip this thread & move on instead of making insinuating comments..Betty

[gipress2]

Hello, Just to let you know my wife and I are part of the Lost 29. Weather played a part which entailed bus to Fairbanks verus train to Anchorage and that is all. Starting the next day (mismanagement takes over) by getting up at 4:15 am and going to the airport only to find that Holland America had lost the manifest list. Being lied to constanly getting up the next 3 days at 4:30 am daily in by no means my idea of a vacation celebrating our 26th year of marriage. Now Holland America is proving once again that they have no sense of providing customer satisfaction. The $500.00 dollar refund if an insult to all of us.

My suggestion is do not travel via Holland America and I will tell the world that this company has no backbone. They should be forced to drop the word America from their company name.

Simply put Holland America is about greed.

[hammybee]

So what if it's been discussed before..Why can't we answer the same question a hundred times..It's like new posters coming on & asking about the dress code & those that say "Here we go again"..If you don't want to answer, why not skip this thread & move on instead of making insinuating comments..Betty

I'm with you serendipity. For all we know we might be hearing from all 29 and so what if we do. They are hurting and angry. We can listen,empathize and maybe help a few put it into perspective or,as you said, just skip the threads.

[hammybee]

You are the 4th of the HAL Group of 29 to post here. As we understand it, more than 200 passengers on other cruise lines were also dissappointed. We are saddended by your misfortune and understand your anger.

[Host Walt]

Because there are several threads on this topic, we have merged them into this one.

[dakrewser]

Because there are several threads on this topic, we have merged them into this one.

YEAH!! - but I think you missed one, Walt
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=403760

[HeatherInFlorida]

Gee thanks, Dave, we really needed that one, too!:)

[Host Walt]

YEAH!! - but I think you missed one, Walt
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=403760

Not really. Different issue.

That thread is about lost luggage, not about the lost cruise days.

[cruiseco]

Their contract lets them off the hook, .


As the lawyers in this thread have pointed out, if a judge wants to toss out the venue clause, or any other part of the contract, it's perfectly possible to do.

Over the years the biggest problem for the cruise lines and their Passenger Contracts has been the timing of the passenger first reading and signing the contract.

The passenger typically first sees the contract at the time the final cruise documents are delivered. At that time the penalties for cancelling the cruise are usually at a mimimum of 50% of the full cruise fare or even 100%. At that point it's tough to argue that the client is free to refuse to sign the contract.

Of course, it's easy to say that the client should know better and should read the contract before any penalties are in place. But you have to remember that the well-educated members of Cruise Critic make up only a small fraction of the total number of cruisers out there. Aunt Agatha will buy cabins for the whole family for a 50th anniversary. Maybe, but probably not, the TA will dig up a copy of the contract for her to look over.Maybe, but probably Aunt Agatha will think to ask for it. And maybe she'll read and understand what she's signing away. But the other 30 family members won't see anything until it's too late to back out if the contract has clauses to which they object.

Anyway, as I posted before courts have generally sided with the cruise lines by about a three-to-one margin (that's just off the top of my head from years of reading the trade magazines). But no one should be discouraged from bringing suit just because "it's in the contract." Not only does the venue clause regularly get thrown out but the whole contract has been voided in some cases.

[BeBeReader]

Kudos to you Cruiseco! You get it. I hope HAL does and appropriately compensates the 29.

BeBe

[Home at last]

Walt,

The only reason it appears my original post was about lost luggage is that the cruise portion of the vacation was over. The actual subject of the post was the lack of caring on HAL's part, the lack of CUSTOMER SERVICE. It doesn't matter that this was the very last portion of the trip.

What matters is that HAL has lost customers due to their lack of forethought and lack of communication.

[hammybee]

Walt,

The only reason it appears my original post was about lost luggage is that the cruise portion of the vacation was over. The actual subject of the post was the lack of caring on HAL's part, the lack of CUSTOMER SERVICE. It doesn't matter that this was the very last portion of the trip.

What matters is that HAL has lost customers due to their lack of forethought and lack of communication.

Host Walt: Home at Last was a part of the mess and the first OP on the topic. I do think it belongs here for archival consitency.

[happy cruzer]

Hi, Cruiseco, Thanks for discussing your view of the contract. I am very interested in your opinion of how the 29 folks should progress. As you will note from one of my earlier posts, I was involved in a very bad situation on Celebrity. I would say almost on the magnitude of the this one. My experience was that I received a 50% discount off of a future cruise. I think I was part of a class action. There was fellow passenger with a lawyer on staff that took this one on. But I don't think they ever did more than document the compliant and follow up to get our discounts.

I personally think the $500 OBC is not too bad and if hal also threw in a future discount I would have to just get on with life. I don't think I would incur one penny in legal fees on this one especially if they have already come up with the $500 OBC. What would you do? Also do you think any of the travel insurance policies would cover any of this besides the meals, I think hal covered lodging?

[cruiseco]

Hi, Cruiseco, Thanks for discussing your view of the contract. I am very interested in your opinion of how the 29 folks should progress.

Step #1 Get something in writing from the cruise line stating their position and any compensation they might offer. Of course, the problem there is they can take forever to come up with some sort of final offer.

Step #2 If you have travel insurance step #1 becomes very important because no claim will be paid until the insurer knows what, if any, money will be coming from the cruise line so any claim payment will be adjusted accordingly. The faster you get step #1 handled the faster your claim with your insurer will go.

Step #3 If the previous steps do not result in what you feel is a satisfactory outcome there's a variety of choices from there -- you can request arbitration through services such as the Better Business Bureau, you can contact a lawyer in your home location, or you can contact a lawyer at the cruise line's preferred venue. Suing in the cruise line's preferred venue might in fact be your best option because you have a far better chance of finding a lawyer who is familiar with cruise line law and who maybe has been through all of this before. The odds of finding someone of similar experience in most communities is about nil. I'm not 100% sure but I think most large cities have some sort of ABA referral service so if you ask them they can probably point you to a firm that does that kind of stuff. Good luck!

[happy cruzer]

The path you outline is a very good one. And it confirms my experience that it is probably going to take a long time to reach a conclusion, in my case it was six months.

do you think they have the option to just file with their insurance companies based on the $500 OBC and just not mess with trying to get more from HAL? then maybe the insurance company might go after HAL.

Hoping for the best.

[cruiseco]

The path you outline is a very good one. And it confirms my experience that it is probably going to take a long time to reach a conclusion, in my case it was six months.

do you think they have the option to just file with their insurance companies based on the $500 OBC and just not mess with trying to get more from HAL? then maybe the insurance company might go after HAL.

Hoping for the best.

If they've got something in writing from the cruise line stating that the $500 OBC is the best that they'll do they can file a claim with the insurer. Actually, they can file at any time but need to be prepared for delays in the claims processing until something final from the cruise line is in hand. I doubt that the insurer will "go after" the cruise line but I'm pretty sure that the passenger will have to sign something stating that if there's any future additional money coming from the cruise line that they'll have to sign it over to the insurer up to the amount that was paid on the claim.

Remember too that insurance will only cover actual monetary losses. So if the cruiser is looking for any money to compensate for the disappointment or aggravation of the whole situation that will have to come from the cruise line either from a voluntary settlement, arbitration, or through a law suit.

[happy cruzer]

With all due respect, we all feel bad for those whose Alaskan Tour/Cruise plans went astray. I thought this might lighten the load:

TOUR 12 Theme Song

Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale,
a tale of a fateful trip,
That started from this frigid place
to board a HAL ship.

The mate was not a HAL man,
the skipper clueless and meek
Tour 12 set off that fateful day
For a 3 hour tour, a 3 hour tour…

The weather started getting rough,
Tour 12’s plans astray

If not for the courage of the fearless crew,
more luggage would have been lost, more luggage would have been lost.

Twenty-nine of Tour 12 , stuck on ground, of this uncharted place
With Gilligan, the Skipper too
The Millionaire, and his Wife,
The Movie Star, the Professor and Mary Ann,
here at Stranded Tour 12 Place

So this is a tale of our castaways,
they’re here for a long, long time.
They have to make the best of things
It’s an uphill climb.

The first mate and his skipper too
may not have done their best
to make their tour guests comfortable
in the Alaskan Wilderness

No luggage, no meds no rail cars
only a few bare necessities
Like a mealsy shipboard credit,
as ordinary as can be.

So join us here, each week my friend
You’re sure to get a smile
From 29 stranded castaways
Here on Tour Twelve isle.

This was the most artistic post that I have ever read. I missed it when the threads were merged and just now found it. Starting from my days of the Darpanet or usenet, this is the best post ever; although the trip report of a certain poker player in Vegas in the old days.. well it was classic too. Is there an award like a grammy you would get it!

And some day we will get to hear how the illfated tour ended.

[hammybee]

And some day we will get to hear how the illfated tour ended.

Thank you. You made my day.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I missed that too, Hammybee!!! That was terrific ... so glad someone brought it forward.

Brought a smile to my lips.:)