Since Carnival Took Over HAL....

[WeLoveCruising]

Every so often someone seems to mention a negative experience on a ship and blames it on "since Carnival". For example - "Since Carnival took over HAL".....the food is bad, the service is bad, the dress code isnt enforced, etc.

RuthC pointed out in another thread that the acquistion was about 18 years ago (I'm not sure on that exactly, but it sounds right to me).

I wanted to point out that Carnival Cruise Line doesnt own HAL, it is the Carnival Corporation that does. Carnival Corporation owns several individually managed cruise lines, including Carnival and HAL. They also own Costa, Cunard, Princess, P&O, Windstar, and Seabourn. Each brand has its own identity and style, and attracts its own share of fans.

We've been sailing HAL for many years, and we've seen the ups and downs. I've also sailed on Carnival and decided its not for me, but I wouldnt describe any changes on HAL as part of a "Carnivalization". Yes, HAL has made alot of changes in recent years, but I believe this is more a response to the marketplace, economics post 9/11, and what they believe the cruising public is looking for.

[WeLoveCruising]

S7S,
They also own P&O, Swan Hellenic, and a few others. This is from their website:

www.carnivalcorp.com

Carnival is a global cruise company and one of the largest vacation companies in the world. Our portfolio of 12 leading cruise brands includes Carnival Cruise Lines, Princess Cruises, Holland America Line, Windstar Cruises and Seabourn Cruise Line in North America; P&O Cruises, Cunard Line, Ocean Village and Swan Hellenic in the United Kingdom; AIDA in Germany; Costa Cruises in Europe; and P&O Cruises in Australia.

[RuthC]

Eighteen years is accurate within a few weeks: the deal was finalized in December, 1988 and completed in January, 1989.

I don't know to what extent post-9/11 economics plays a part, but I suspect it isn't the whole story.
In the last several years the various cruiselines have expanded tremendously. They have to fill many more cabins and to do that must attract people who have never cruised before---even people who have never considered cruising.
In trying to be all things to all people simultaneously they have lowered standards attempting to please everybody. It doesn't work that way.

[WeLoveCruising]

In trying to be all things to all people simultaneously they have lowered standards attempting to please everybody. It doesn't work that way.

I agree with you, Ruth. My comment on "post 9/11" is because most cruise lines had to considerably lower their per diem rates in order to attract passengers to travel following that tragic event. There was (still is) tremendous competition to fill all the new ships which kept those prices down. It was about that time that many cruise lines began to make alot of the changes (not all for the better) - these changes are to enhance onboard revenue - charges for things that were once free, elimination of other perks, and the introduction of new goods/services at a surcharge. The cruise lines had to find a way to stay afloat - OK, no pun intended - :) while offering competitive lower fares to fill their ships.

But back to your point, I agree that many of the new things introduced at HAL show they are trying to be too many things to too many people. I wish they would stay with traditional dining, and keep the other traditions that attracted us to them in the first place. There are plenty of choices in the cruise industry and most people should be able to find something that suits their own style. As my husband would say "that's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors"...

[kakalina]

Hear, hear!!

[Islandbuoy]

I think that's the point--there are no longer 31 flavors.

Despots in charge of corporations like General Motors , forget their customers and get enticed by accountants and others into believing they can make more money by "mushing the brands together". Putting Olds engines in Chevy's--Olds went from the leading brand in USA to out of business.

Similarly-- Changing the tipping policy on HAL to match Carnival & Princess--- Changing the carry on liquor policy --etc-etc-etc, will eventually make all 3 lines seem pretty much the same.

As long as they keep Carnival out of the 10+ day cruise business , there will continue be a HAL that we recognize.

We all have to continue to stress to Carnival Corp that we like HAL and want a HAL that isn't a twin to Carnival or Princess.

[Sea King]

[quote=jercal10]

We all have to continue to stress to Carnival Corp that we like HAL and want a HAL that isn't a twin to Carnival or Princess.

IMHO, have no fear on that point jercal10:)

Micky Arison "sort of knows" the right formula for success;)

have there been changes since all the acquisitions? IMO, of course

as for HAL, it continues to grow and expand .. if not for Teddy Arison and Kirk Landerman, HAL could have become Eastern Airlines, TWA or PanAm

[Krazy Kruizers]

Yes, HAL has been owned by Canival for about 18 years.

It wasn't until after 9/11 that we noticed some changes in HAL.

Most recently we have noticed a lot of changes -- some good and some bad.

HAL is trying to get more younger people to cruise on them -- thus changes are being made to attrack the new generation of cruisers.

[ANSalberg]

Yes, HAL has been owned by Canival for about 18 years.

It wasn't until after 9/11 that we noticed some changes in HAL.

Most recently we have noticed a lot of changes -- some good and some bad.

HAL is trying to get more younger people to cruise on them -- thus changes are being made to attrack the new generation of cruisers.

The very same can be said of Television where executives think that anybody gives a damn what happens to Britany Speers or that group of half-wits that cover the tabloids. I think it is GREAT that "younger is better" as long as they don't forget that "Older has the time and the money"
Anne

[Sea King]

I think it is GREAT that "younger is better" as long as they don't forget that "Older has the time and the money"
Anne

Ain't that the truth:D:D:D

fantastic comment:)

[gizmo]

The very same can be said of Television where executives think that anybody gives a damn what happens to Britany Speers or that group of half-wits that cover the tabloids. I think it is GREAT that "younger is better" as long as they don't forget that "Older has the time and the money"
Anne

ROTFLMAO. :D

Now, if FOX would only dump that "old tape" of B.Speers dancing.......:rolleyes:

[Krazy Kruizers]

ANSaltberg

You are SO RIGHT!!

On our last cruises, we got the feeling that HAL was trying to forget about we older cruisers who do have the time and money.

[sail7seas]

I received the fabulous brochure of Grand Voyages for 2008. How many young families do you suppose will be booking the World Cruise or the 73 day Grand Africa Voyage etc? The changes they make to HAL which many of us feel are geared to only the " young 'uns " may not be changes that attract us to spend tens of thousands of dollars having anytime/anywhere you want dining; loud, blaring music; etc

[cruisnfool]

I can tell you that Costa which was acquired by CCL has built there last few ships on Carnical bodies....which I hate.....plus that CCL designer Farcus has had more than I like of influence on the decor of the new ships......

I have never liked the farcus design of ships and was very sad to see his handiwork on Costa ships.

The alsoust recently brought some of the Cunard Captains to Princess for cross training.......

So I do think there are some decisions made across all ships even if they are managed separately.

[Randyk47]

Wasn't so long ago that Carnival ships didn't do 7-day cruises with the focus being the fun ship/party ship 3-5 day cruises. Then Carnival added ships and before you knew it they had 7-day cruises. Now the Freedom and Spirit do 12+ day cruises. So they there already, starting to compete, at least in terms of cruise length with their own corporate lines though still notionally marketed to a different segment of the cruise population. Having said that my personal impression is that with some exceptions, mostly the luxury/premier lines, most other lines are moving more and more to the center trying to be all things to all people. Too bad.......

[tomc]

I have some facts that you "HAL can do nothing wrong" people seem to be conveniently forgetting.

Ever since Carnival bought HAL:

(a) World temperatures have been rising and the ice caps are receding.
(b) There have been two ship disaster movies released.
(c) The Pope died.
(d) Tensions, Christian vs Muslim world, have increased.
(e) Pluto was affirmed, then denied, its status as a planet.

You die-hards always avoid these tough points.

:p

[RedmondCruiser]

I've been using HAL for 20 years, which is pre Carnival and post Carnival. What you should know is that Carnival does not interfere with the lines it buys. Mickey Aronson and Bob Davidson are very astute business men and they know that if they made HAL into another Carnival that the loyal customers would leave in droves.

I asked someone from HAL what the differences were after being purchased by Carnival and she said "now we have clout". Carnival purchases fuel, food and other sundries in very very large bulk purchases and this is very beneficial to HAL. They also provided the financing for the four S class ships. This doubled the number of ships that HAL had.

Kirk Lanterdan also stated, in 2003, that Carnival had been out to Seattle twice and that they had never demanded anything. Any changes are due to normal market pressures and not Carnival.

If it had not been for Carnival HAL would probably not exist today. They would have probably been absorped like Sitmar or Home Line.

[bepsf]

Yes, Carnival Corp has influenced some changes...

Before the purchase, HAL had contracts out with a builder for new ships: the size of the R-Class (@ 65,000 tons) but passenger capacity closer to that of the Vistas (@ 1800 pax). Once the purchase went through, CCL had HAL cancel those contracts and take the blueprints CCL had developed for their "Project Tiffany" ships to Fincantieri for our current Statendam.

If CCL had not bought HAL, you'd be looking at a very different line altogether...

As far as Costa goes, CCL had been looking for a way into the European market for some time & Costa was ripe for the picking. At least CCL bought a moneymaker rather than perennial money-loser, Celebrity...

[bepsf]

They would have probably been absorped like Sitmar or Home Line.

Considering HAL bought Home Line before the CCL purchase...
...and Princess bought Sitmar oh-so-long ago.
;)

[middle-aged mom]

I have some facts that you "HAL can do nothing wrong" people seem to be conveniently forgetting.

Ever since Carnival bought HAL:

(a) World temperatures have been rising and the ice caps are receding.
(b) There have been two ship disaster movies released.
(c) The Pope died.
(d) Tensions, Christian vs Muslim world, have increased.
(e) Pluto was affirmed, then denied, its status as a planet.

You die-hards always avoid these tough points.

:p

YES, and another point: when Carnival bought HAL we were all of us younger, and now we have succumbed to the dreaded aging process. The aging process, for me, has increased exponentially since HAL and Carnival became one in 1989 (the year my oldest child was born!!) All of us posting on this board are older than the oldest HAL ship:eek: See what horrors are released when corporations tamper with the fabric of existence!!:) ;)

Karin

ps very interesting, informative, and helpful thread here. I appreciate all the background info regarding the merger. Thank you.

[Jim Gallup]

EVERY week on EVERY cruise on EVERY cruise ship we read about 500 comment cards that complain bitterly:

"Why can't you do this like Carnival does?"
"Why can't you offer that like Princess does?"
"Why can't you offer traditional dining like HAL."
"Why can't you have more restaurants like NCL?"
"Why don't you have soft serve ice cream like RCCL?"
"Why don't you have bars like Celebrity?"
"Why don't you have spas like Oceania?"

And the best one of all: "Why don't you ever read these comments and follow up on them"?

So now it appears that the cruise lines are paying attention and trying to satisfy the demands that so many cruisers write on their comment cards.

Shall we now tell the cruise lines to stop paying attention to all of those cruisers who are demanding that all cruise lines offer everything to everyone?

[Enchanted]

HAL is trying to get more younger people to cruise on them -- thus changes are being made to attrack the new generation of cruisers.

I think i'm one of the "younger cruisers" (i know i wont be able to say this forever)on HAL, but the attraction I have to HAL is because of the the smaller, elegant, more understated ships, passenger/space ratio, crew,food, service, fellow pax etc.
I enjoy having the same wait staff each night at dinner that remember my name and that i like tea after my meal (although they didn't remember on my last cruise :( ).

The changes over the last few years have been mostly subtle but put them all together and you'll notice things are different. Different for the better, or worse? For me it's the latter. I don't see any changes that would appeal to a younger crowd, not for me anyway.
I think most of us that lurk on these boards have come to love and pretty much expect certain aspects of HAL (myself included) and when things change some of us deal with it much better than others.

I was a bit upset after my recent cruise on the Westerdam, mainly in the food/service area. Did i still have a good time? Yes. Do I still love HAL? Yes. What have I learned?
Well, even on the same line, same ship, same itinerary, my experience will vary from one sailing to another. I can choose to sweat the small stuff, just like i can choose to make the best of my vacation.

Even with all the changes, I still get away from work, traffic, cooking, cleaning, laundry etc...how bad can it be?!

[bepsf]

EVERY week on EVERY cruise on EVERY cruise ship we read about 500 comment cards that complain bitterly:

"Why can't you do this like Carnival does?"
"Why can't you offer that like Princess does?"
"Why can't you offer traditional dining like HAL."
"Why can't you have more restaurants like NCL?"
"Why don't you have soft serve ice cream like RCCL?"
"Why don't you have bars like Celebrity?"
"Why don't you have spas like Oceania?"

And the best one of all: "Why don't you ever read these comments and follow up on them"?

So now it appears that the cruise lines are paying attention and trying to satisfy the demands that so many cruisers write on their comment cards.

Shall we now tell the cruise lines to stop paying attention to all of those cruisers who are demanding that all cruise lines offer everything to everyone?

IMO - That's like someone complaining that his Ford Focus isnt as fast as a Mustang, another complaining that his Mustang isn't as roomy as a Lincoln TownCar, and someone else complaining that his TownCar isn't as economical as a Focus - and Ford responding by making all their cars the same!

Yes, the lines should stop trying to be everything to everyone and spend more of their advertising dollars not just selling cruises but educating the public and TA's what the differences are and what makes them special so that passengers can get the right cruise on the right ship.

[Enchanted]

IMO - That's like someone complaining that his Ford Focus isnt as fast as a Mustang, another complaining that his Mustang isn't as roomy as a Lincoln TownCar, and someone else complaining that his TownCar isn't as economical as a Focus - and Ford responding by making all their cars the same!

Yes, the lines should stop trying to be everything to everyone and spend more of their advertising dollars not just selling cruises but educating the public and TA's what the differences are and what makes them special so that passengers can get the right cruise on the right ship.


Well said Brian

[obriendan]

"The aging process, for me, has increased exponentially since HAL and Carnival became one in 1989." (from middle-aged mom).

Geez! I hope I'm not aging exponetially:o . Chronologically is bad enough:D !

[mariner]

The problem is fairly complex.

In order for HAL to regain 5-star status, the line would have to charge what Oceania, Regent and Crystal charge for their cruises.

The cry from this board would be loud and many who keep notching cruises up on their avatars would most likely be back to one cruise a year or every two.

HAL's managers understand this, so they must discount to fill their bigger ships in the rough-and-tumble Caribbean and Alaska markets. I rarely hear people in St. Thomas say, ``I booked HAL cause I love it.'' I do hear, ``Princess has a great discount.''

My NOORDAM cruise has dropped nearly $3000 since we booked in April.

Then there are the passengers who, having paid a discounted fare, look for ways to spend little, if any, money aboard.

Couple that with the discounts, and the line must cut somewhere to boost the bottom line for the shareholders, who want to see a dividend.

Blaming Carnival is not accurate. If anything, the blame lies with Carnival falling in love with the Princess business plan, which seems to have permeated the company's entire fleet. It has benefitted Carnival passengers with better food and service. It hasn't with HAL.

I also think Carnival now considers Cunard its ``Tiffany'' line instead of HAL, which was a major reason for Carnival wanting HAL in the first place.

[PRINSENDAM]

If it had not been for Carnival HAL would probably not exist today. They would have probably been absorped like Sitmar or Home Line.


Don't forget that it was HAL that absorbed Home Lines! Carnival got two for one!

I for one, was rather sad that HAL took over Home Lines. It was a first class company with well run, beautiful ships. In a way HAL and Home Lines complemented each other perfectly, one being Dutch and the other Italian.

I have to admit that when I was making a decision on my first cruise I had a choice between the old ROTTERDAM or the OCEANIC... I decided on OCEANIC! Eventually I went to the ROTTERDAM... and loved every second of the 336 days I spent on board, but I sure missed the OCEANIC!

Stephen

[PRINSENDAM]

''

My NOORDAM cruise has dropped nearly $3000 since we booked in April.
.




Yep. But what they have not told you is that your 'suite' is now above the propellers and your 'suite perk' is to have tea in the Crew Mess!

The good news is that the drinks are cheaper in the Crew Bar!!! :-)

Stephen

[cruisnfool]

I have sailed 26 times since 1986....many things have changed over the years and I don'y blame any "company" but rather two reasons
1....a reponse to market cost escalations
2....a response to passenger comments

Cruise lines must change the bottom line like any other business and they also want to give passengers what they want.........isn't that the reason we have all these dining options now......It was sure simple when you atr at the same table for all three meals!

Brian........do you belive Celebrity is not a cost effecient line? Seems to have a lot of loyal customers. Maybe the propulsion problems have hurt them financially.

To the poster that said people complain about what a line doesn't do something like another line.....I like the differance.
Example:
If I want fresh water pools and great priced mini suites...go on Princess
If I want ships with a WOW facor and high energy....RCI
Good Italian food, ambiance and toga parties...Costa
Great service and food..Celebrity
Can't bring myself back to NCL or Carnival as yet
First HAl coming up...will see where she fits

If all the lines became cookie cutter ships what fun would that be.....plus what would everyone complain about.

Great thread!

[xpcdoojk]

I think that's the point--there are no longer 31 flavors.

Despots in charge of corporations like General Motors , forget their customers and get enticed by accountants and others into believing they can make more money by "mushing the brands together". Putting Olds engines in Chevy's--Olds went from the leading brand in USA to out of business.

Similarly-- Changing the tipping policy on HAL to match Carnival & Princess--- Changing the carry on liquor policy --etc-etc-etc, will eventually make all 3 lines seem pretty much the same.

As long as they keep Carnival out of the 10+ day cruise business , there will continue be a HAL that we recognize.

We all have to continue to stress to Carnival Corp that we like HAL and want a HAL that isn't a twin to Carnival or Princess.

The world is not this simple. Despots is one of the dumbest things I have ever read in this forum. Step away from the TV and open a book, please.

Economics and competition are where answers to why companies are where they are today, not the control of despotic rulers. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but sometimes when you type things you hear listening to air America you appear silly. Just trying to help you out here.

jc

[RedmondCruiser]

To Brian and Stephan --- I know that HAL absorped Home Line but my point is that HAL could have been absorped and dismembered just as easily. At the time they were bought by CCL they only had four ships - two dissimilar ships being the aged Rotterdam, the Westerdam and the two 1983 - 1984 sister ships Noordam and NiewAmsterdam.-- a bit of a mixed bag. --- Today lines seem to buy another line and keep the name but when the line only has a few ships they get eaten.

[bepsf]

Brian........do you belive Celebrity is not a cost effecient line? Seems to have a lot of loyal customers. Maybe the propulsion problems have hurt them financially.

Great thread!

Cost-Efficiency and Customer Loyalty aren't necessarily related.

Crystal has rarely made any money for NYK, and Cunard has been a perennial money-loser since paying off QE2 in the 70's but they both have a great many very loyal passengers.* On the other hand, HAL has almost always made a profit and has the greatest customer-loyalty in the business.

Celebrity was making OK money, then over-extended itself in building the Century/Galaxy/Mercury trio which is why it offered itself to RCCL so it wouldn't go under.* X also has some very loyal passengers, but are losing many along the way due to the poor service and cost-cutting RCCL has been doing since their takeover in efforts to make it a profitable division again.* Of course, the pod problems don't help X's profitability but many die-hard X fans are still willing to look past those issues...

[bepsf]

To Brian and Stephan --- I know that HAL absorped Home Line but my point is that HAL could have been absorped and dismembered just as easily. At the time they were bought by CCL they only had four ships - two dissimilar ships being the aged Rotterdam, the Westerdam and the two 1983 - 1984 sister ships Noordam and NiewAmsterdam.-- a bit of a mixed bag. --- Today lines seem to buy another line and keep the name but when the line only has a few ships they get eaten.

Yes, but CCL has made it a business practice to leave well-enough alone when the line they are buying is profitable (like HAL & Princess) and just add their financial backing for added growth potential.

Cunard has rarely made a profit since the 60's, which is why CCL has infused their management with expertise from P&O/Princess:* another British division who already know how to make a profit.

[DFD1]

Interesting discussion. Thank you all.

In my opinion, we probably would not have HAL in its present configuration...if at all...were it not for the aquisition by Carnival Corporation.

The cruise business is not unlike any other.....it must change and evolve to survive. That's the nature of almost all living things....including businesses.

[Islandbuoy]

Guess I struck a nerve with you.(What company are you a despot with?)

One of the other guys said it so well ,when he said that they should spend (at least some of)their marketing money trying to differentiate the various lines( to the buying public).

I wanted Olds to be Olds not Chevy or Cadillac. The stakeholders should have also.
Some how Toyota is making money and gaining ground while keeping Toyota and Lexus brands separate.

Same with Hal, I don't want HAL to be Carnival or Princess.

Doesn't mean that I'm against progress!!!

[PRINSENDAM]

To Brian and Stephan --- I know that HAL absorped Home Line but my point is that HAL could have been absorped and dismembered just as easily. At the time they were bought by CCL they only had four ships - two dissimilar ships being the aged Rotterdam, the Westerdam and the two 1983 - 1984 sister ships Noordam and NiewAmsterdam.-- a bit of a mixed bag. --- Today lines seem to buy another line and keep the name but when the line only has a few ships they get eaten.


Quite right. They were ripe for picking but at the time there were no big players out there with the money to do so.

We shouldn't forget that HAL were working on the 'Tiffany Project' at the time the company was purchased by Carnival. They would have been two 60,000 ton ships. Quite nice from the renderings I've seen.... no balconies! Had they been built, I wonder if HAL might have grown quite successfully on their own. In any event the project was cancelled and instead the S class were built.

Stephen

[billsrobb]

Hear, hear!!



I live in Peoria, AZ

Robb

[hammybee]

YES, and another point: when Carnival bought HAL we were all of us younger, and now we have succumbed to the dreaded aging process. The aging process, for me, has increased exponentially since HAL and Carnival became one in 1989 (the year my oldest child was born!!) All of us posting on this board are older than the oldest HAL ship:eek: See what horrors are released when corporations tamper with the fabric of existence!!:) ;) Karin

Yikes Karin. My DD is as old as the oldest HAL ship and I am an older mom.

I am now going out to make "snow angels" ( 12" and counting)and pretend that I am the same age as HAL's youngest ship.

[hammybee]

Crystal has rarely made any money for NYK, and Cunard has been a perennial money-loser since paying off QE2 in the 70's but they both have a great many very loyal passengers.* On the other hand, HAL has almost always made a profit and has the greatest customer-loyalty in the business.

Brian, How do you know that HAL is profitable? I am not doubting you, just curious.

[kryos]

Most recently we have noticed a lot of changes -- some good and some bad.

HAL is trying to get more younger people to cruise on them -- thus changes are being made to attrack the new generation of cruisers.
HAL is trying to get more PEOPLE period to cruise with them, and I think that regardless of who owned HAL, the changes we are seeing would happen either way.

HAL's passenger demographic has tended toward the upper ages for many years. But that number is being eroded as people die, or become too ill to cruise any longer ... things that sadly happen as we get older. HAL is merely trying to fill the hole being created by that dwindling number of older passengers, and to do this they are targeting the younger, family market.

While HAL has changed, and I am sure will continue to change, I don't believe this is necessarily a bad thing. If HAL didn't change, we wouldn't have a HAL ship left to sail on ten, twenty years from now ... and then we would all be forced to look at lines like Carnival or RCCL.

As long as HAL keeps the longer voyages on their itinerary list, those old staples of cruising will always be available onboard. But, if you opt for the shorter seven-day cruises, you will lose them.

True, HAL has probably cut some things out that once were available ... without extra fee ... but when you consider that the cost of cruising has actually come down ... in both real dollars and value of money ... you have to see that any company operating HAL would have to cut some things out in order to make a profit. If the cruise lines upped the cost of a cruise in order to keep those former things in place, then less people would cruise because they would be priced out of it. By cutting out these things, and keeping the price low, however, more people can board their boats. Once HAL (or any cruise line) gets them onboard, the hope obviously is that they spend a lot of money paying for all those extra charge items that they want, and thus wind up taking a far more expensive cruise than they would have if the charge had been upfront.

My take on this? Stick with the longer, more "exotic" itineraries and you will continue to pretty much enjoy the HAL of old. Sure, you'll pay for some things that maybe you didn't pay for ten years ago ... but you'll enjoy all the ammenities of an elegant cruising experience.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bepsf]

Brian, How do you know that HAL is profitable? I am not doubting you, just curious.

Ya know, I remember that it's what I've been told - but for the life of me I can't remember who told me!
:o

[happy cruzer]

I looked at the new builds HAL is planning and they are pretty big. I think it says the future of HAL is to be mass market.

I'm sad. I can be happy on the mass market style cuises but I do love traditional style the best. I think we will all have to pay more to get the traditional style soon. I loved my last cruise on the Volendam; I certainly hope that formula can go forward but I am not all sure it will be. But trying to predict the future is good for us, it will keep us humble.

[Opinions]

[QUOTE=PRINSENDAM]Don't forget that it was HAL that absorbed Home Lines! Carnival got two for one!

/QUOTE]

My recollection is that HAl only bought 2 ships from Home Lines...The "Homeric" which they renamed the "Westerdam" and the "Atlantic" which they sold...I thought "Home Lines" just went out of business rather than being absorbed...Is this correct?

[fcorey]

There was a post earlier in this thread bemoaning the loss of 5 star status. There have been many changes that I have read about here. It seems that many were done for financial reasons rather than Carnivalization. The only area that Carnival has influence on HAL ships is the casino. The manager on Oosterdam told me that all casino staff were trained by Carnival, not HAL. I am sure that they benefit from being part of a larger buying group for a number of things.

The HAL brand identity is what makes it special. It does seem that the attempt to appeal to a broader audience is offending the long time HAL diehards. I dont think that this is an attempt to change themselves into a massmarket line but rather lure those who like the more elegant understated nature of HAL as compared to others like Princess, RCCL etc. Lure those of us who are younger than the average HAL cruiser, win us over with some compromises, with the hope of us being customers who have 30 yrs of cruising ahead.

One thing I have noticed is that the HAL prices really are nowhere near those charged for 5 star. Heck, they arent even close in some cases to what RCCL or Celebrity charge for equivalent rooms. Holland America is actually a great value. I know that the diehards here would probably be willing to pay 10% more for their cruise if HAL were to reinstate some of the perks or services eliminated over the years. I know I would. The only catch is that they may not be able to fill ships at that higher rate. Its a tough balance. The important thing is to be vocal about your likes and dislikes. They do listen. I recently got a call about a comment card that I had filled out on Oosterdam with comments, some negative some positive.

You cannot ignore your customer and expect your business to survive.

[kryos]

The problem is fairly complex.

In order for HAL to regain 5-star status, the line would have to charge what Oceania, Regent and Crystal charge for their cruises.


Exactly. And then many of us on this board would no longer be able to afford to sail HAL at all. Personally, I'd rather lose some of the things I maybe used to get in order to retain the ability to set foot on a HAL ship.

Personally, I say that if the loss of five-star status is that troubling to someone, there are alternatives ... i.e., the above-mentioned cruise lines. Go on them and you are likely to find all of those former HAL touches. Of course, you'll pay dearly ... but if you can afford it, why not? But since I can't, I'll gladly take HAL in its current configuration and just pay extra for things that maybe once were provided for free on that line.

HAL would have to get a whole lot worse ... take away a whole lot more ... before I would stop sailing the line. Of course, who knows? That day may one day come ... maybe with the advent of the Signature class ships and beyond. But until that time comes, I'll gladly take what I can get on HAL and just pay as I go for the extra stuff I want.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[cruisnfool]

Again.....Carnival has more to say than just casinos......the ships are built on same bodies, joe farcus helps with designs and management is being shared.......not truly bad things except I don't like the glitzy, plastic neon lights of Carnival and the pictures of the newer Costa ships look just like a Carnival ship...IMHO
My last Costa was the Romantica and it cost 450 millon and was elegaaaant, losts of imported marble etc

You better watch out , the next HAL ship may have a gaudy 12 story atrium with lots of plastic trim and ulgy lighting.

I also had my neck hairs stand up when Kyros lumped RCI with CArnival.
I would never put those two ships in the same class. Unless Carnival has changed to bring itself UP to RCI than I stand corrected.
It would take an almost free cruise or an itineray that I couldn't pass up to get me back on Carnival.
All my opinions.

I don't think any more older people are dying today than years ago its just the younger people are cruising, especially families.

Change is unavoidable and it seems that in cruising the bigger the build the better the profit. Not sure why HAL has continued to do well with smaller ships except for the deep pockets of Carnival.

[3Generations]

I haven't sailed HAL since 1980. Went on three sailing forth on January 6th, Noordam.

I imagine I am going to see a big change. I was a college student and then
on my honeymoon when I last sailed.

Bringing my mother and daughter with me. Just us ladies. My daughter has been on this forum quite a bit.

Well, let's see how it goes.

Ronnie

[PRINSENDAM]

Personally, I say that if the loss of five-star status is that troubling to someone, there are alternatives ... --rita




Personally, I say that if someone is unwilling or unable to pay the higher rates for five star service, there are alternatives...........


Stephen

[PRINSENDAM]

[quote=PRINSENDAM]Don't forget that it was HAL that absorbed Home Lines! Carnival got two for one!

/QUOTE]

My recollection is that HAl only bought 2 ships from Home Lines...The "Homeric" which they renamed the "Westerdam" and the "Atlantic" which they sold...I thought "Home Lines" just went out of business rather than being absorbed...Is this correct?


It amounts to the same thing but in fact HAL assumed full control over Home Lines in March 1988. One ship, HOMERIC was renamed WESTERDAM and transferred to the HAL fleet while the second ship, ATLANTIC, was chartered to Premier Cruise Lines. One year later Premier purchased the ship outright. Also in 1988 HAL acquired the outstanding stock in Windstar Cruises. So in acutal fact, Carnival Corporation acquired three cruise lines!

Stephen

[WeLoveCruising]

Again.....Carnival has more to say than just casinos......the ships are built on same bodies, joe farcus helps with designs and management is being shared.......not truly bad things except I don't like the glitzy, plastic neon lights of Carnival and the pictures of the newer Costa ships look just like a Carnival ship

Not sure I understand you comment. Are you saying that the Grand Princess / Zaandam / Wind Surf / Carnival Destiny / Seabourn Pride / Queen Mary 2 / Costa Fortuna are all based on the same body and designed by Joe Farcus? How many of these have you been on? (I've been on them all, btw). Even the HAL Vista ships are vastly different than the Carnival ships.

[cruisnfool]

The only ones I read about are the newer Costa ships...they used the same body for the basics and Joe helps with the designs......haven't been on them just read it on these boards.

I also saw pictures of the newer Costa ships that they also look like Carnival designs in the lobby.

[kryos]

I also had my neck hairs stand up when Kyros lumped RCI with CArnival.
I would never put those two ships in the same class. Unless Carnival has changed to bring itself UP to RCI than I stand corrected.

I think, though, that the two lines are quite similar in terms of the type of passengers they attract. Not saying a Carnival passenger is necessarily any better or worse than a HAL passenger ... just that they are different, and they probably cruise for different reasons.

Both Carnival and RCI attract the family cruiser ... shorter cruises, lots of high energy. Both lines, in my opinion, foster the same type of party atmosphere onboard. Nothing wrong with that ... but just not the environment that I prefer to immerse myself in while cruising.

My judgment here is based solely on the ammenities offered onboard most Carnival and RCI ships ... they are just the types of things that would clearly attract a younger crowd of people. Also, many of their itineraries are shorter ... five to seven days ... some even less. This fact too lends itself to the younger cruiser who may not have the necessary vacation time available to take the longer cruises that HAL offers.

As for specifics as to Carnival and RCI ... food, ambience, etc. ... I wasn't comparing them. Perhaps they are as different as night and day. To be honest, I've never sailed either line ... but can easily determine the type of passengers they attract simply from the advertised ship ammenties. After all, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that your average HAL cruiser (older, appreciating the more "refined" aspects of the cruising experience) would find a rock climbing wall as a "got to have" cruise ship experience. Hence, they wouldn't be apt to sail a ship having one. But the family cruiser ... mom, dad, the kids, etc. ... eat that stuff up. The kids are happy, having fun ... meaning mom and dad are happy ... having fun as well. So, those are the people who would flock to RCI ... and Carnival too with some of their family-style ammenities.

So, that is what I meant when I lumped Carnival and RCI into the same sentence ... just the type of cruise experience the two lines offer is similar. That's all.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

I also think Carnival now considers Cunard its ``Tiffany'' line instead of HAL, which was a major reason for Carnival wanting HAL in the first place.
It's funny, but I have two cruises booked for next year ... an 18-day on HAL and a 5-day crossing on Cunard. The HAL cruise has dropped in price several times since we booked it, and we keep taking advantage of these price drops. However, Cunard has not dropped one cent and at this point, I am actually paying more for the TA crossing on Cunard than I am for an 18-day sailing on the Veendam.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[DFD1]

Rita, It sounds like you have that Veendam 18dayer at a hell of a good price.

I'd be curious to know, when you have them both behind you, which one you enjoyed most.

Take care.

[kryos]

Rita, It sounds like you have that Veendam 18dayer at a hell of a good price.

I'd be curious to know, when you have them both behind you, which one you enjoyed most.

Oh, I have no doubt ... the Veendam will surely be my favorite. I'm sure the Queen is much more formal ... and that's gonna be rough for me. :)

But the QE2 will probably be a once-in-a-lifetime type experience, and for that it is worth the price of sailing her. Of course, avoiding an international flight from Venice, Italy back to the States makes the price of the QE2 worth it too. :)

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bepsf]

[quote=cruisnfool]Again.....Carnival has more to say than just casinos......the ships are built on same bodies, joe farcus helps with designs and management is being shared.......
[\quote]

Joe Farcus has absolutely nothing to do with any HAL interiors - they are (except for Prinsendam) designed by Frans Dingemans of VFD Architects.

Incidentally, the S and R-Class ships are completely unique hulls to HAL and the Vistas are based on the 8000-Series hull which was first designed for Costa's Mediterraneana and Atlantica then borrowed for Carnival Legend & Spirit, then extensively revamped for the Vistas, P&O's Arcadia & Cunard's QV

[bepsf]

Ya know, I remember that it's what I've been told - but for the life of me I can't remember who told me!
:o

Now I remember where I learned that HAL has been profitable all these years - "Devils on the Deep Blue Sea". It's a good read about the US cruise industry from the early years through the battle over P&O/Princess

[DFD1]

Brian, I enjoy reading and learning from your knowledge about this industry.

You're right about "Devils on the Deep Blue Sea". I read it based on the suggestion from a thread here and I enjoyed it very much.

Take Care...

[DFD1]

Brian, I enjoy reading and learning from your knowledge about this industry.

You're right about "Devils on the Deep Blue Sea". I read it based on the suggestion from a thread here and I enjoyed it very much.

Take Care...

[noblepa]

Now I remember where I learned that HAL has been profitable all these years - "Devils on the Deep Blue Sea". It's a good read about the US cruise industry from the early years through the battle over P&O/Princess

I doubt that CCL would have approved the construction of the four Vista class ships, plus the upcoming Signature class ship (or ships if they excercise their option for a second one), had the line not been profitable.

As far as the size of the ships and the level of luxury, its kind of a spiral. The larger ships, I'm sure, cost less to build and operate on a per-passenger basis than do the smaller ships. That's why many lines are building them.

However, the flip side of that coin is that customers paying higher prices want exclusivity, which is difficult to maintain on a line with 20 or 30 ships, each carrying upwards of 3,000 passengers. So the line MUST further lower costs by cutting back on the level of service. HAL is getting closer and closer to that level, with 13 ships now, 14 when the Eurodam joins the fleet. Carnival has long-since passed that point.

Paul Noble

[cruisnfool]

Brian.....I am glad to hear that Joe Farcus has nothing to do with the designs of the HAL ships...we are looking forward to the traditional clasic atmosphere.

[bepsf]

However, the flip side of that coin is that customers paying higher prices want exclusivity, which is difficult to maintain on a line with 20 or 30 ships, each carrying upwards of 3,000 passengers. So the line MUST further lower costs by cutting back on the level of service. HAL is getting closer and closer to that level, with 13 ships now, 14 when the Eurodam joins the fleet. Carnival has long-since passed that point.

Paul Noble

True, but at least the planned HAL ships are nowhere near the 3000/pax size that some other "Premium" lines are approaching...

[fcorey]

[quote=cruisnfool]Again.....Carnival has more to say than just casinos......the ships are built on same bodies, joe farcus helps with designs and management is being shared.......
[\quote]

Joe Farcus has absolutely nothing to do with any HAL interiors - they are (except for Prinsendam) designed by Frans Dingemans of VFD Architects.

Incidentally, the S and R-Class ships are completely unique hulls to HAL and the Vistas are based on the 8000-Series hull which was first designed for Costa's Mediterraneana and Atlantica then borrowed for Carnival Legend & Spirit, then extensively revamped for the Vistas, P&O's Arcadia & Cunard's QV

Brian, just as the ship as a manufacturer's plate from Fincantieri, there is also a plate of sorts from VFD. I found the one on Oosterdam purely by accident, it had two coins set into a clear plexi material with a small brass plate and Mr. Dingemans' signature

As far as size goes its just a matter of numbers. Mr. Deering said that a group could charter Oosterdam for a week for about $2 million. Multiply that by 52 weeks and you get $104 Million per year. The average ship is costing about $400 - $500 million. The more passengers per ship the more opportunity to make money from things like casino, spa etc. The faster they get the investment in the ship back. I think HAL has to be applauded for not going the megaship route. That was the first thing that turned me off to Princess, the massive ships, same goes for RCCL. Not that they arent beautiful, I am sure I could have a great time, but my DW would be miserable :)

I think that a 5-10% increase in fares would help restore the perks most are missing. But would they still be able to fill the ships?