Let's Pretend......You Can Play CEO/President of HAL [Archive]

bepsf

December 10th, 2006, 05:20 PM

Dining:
I hesitate to bring the entire line back to "Traditional" dining with the exception of Prinsendam...
...so I'd restore the Lower Dining Rooms to strictly "Traditional Seating" (5.30 and 8pm) where dress-codes are firmly enforced.* Then I'd fill the Upper Dining Rooms with 2, 4 and 6-top tables (getting rid of the uber-long 10-tops on the starboard side of the Vistas) and call it "Restaurant" seating (ie: show up & be seated "Whenever", dress-code somewhat less formal.)* Baked Alaska parades, etc. would be timed for the lower dining room:* Lights would remain on in the Upper Dining Room and the parades would not circulate among those tables.*

In addition, the Lido Restaurant would remain "Casual" dining on the Starboard-side, but a section of @ 40-50 Port-side tables would be draped off and become "The Marco Polo Room": Reservations-Preferred but Casual dining serving Italian fare.* Pinnacle would remain as-is, but would be strictly Jacket & Tie/Formal Dress in the evenings, and would gain a more formal mode of dinner service via better staffing, thereby making its $30 surcharge more worthwile.

Entertainment:
We'd get rid of the hokey banjo-trios and Tommy Tune multi-media embarrassments right away.* No more Las Vegas "Extravaganzas", no more umpteen costume changes/rotating stages/lipsynching-medley madness.

In its place, we institute a program of off-Broadway shows:* a rotating program of different hit*Broadway plays and musicals on different ships:* "Chicago", "The Producers", "Chorus Line", "Phantom", Hairspray", etc. would play for only a few months on each ship and on Formal Nights only.* Other evenings would feature quality Cabaret performances:* Magicians/Comedians/Featured Singers (from the Broadway shows) & Aerial Acrobats (like MSC).

This new (and admittedly more costly) entertainment is offset by maintaining generally higher ticket prices, as the named Broadway shows are featured in the advertising and itinerary - ie: folks would be encouraged via advertising to book a specific HAL ship on the Caribbean and Alaska routes because of a certain featured show, just as they might consider visiting Vegas or New York for seeing particular shows and entertainers.

On certain evenings during warm-climate cruises, there would be "Dancing Under the Stars" on the Aft-Lido till Midnight, when everyone would be encouraged to come indoors for the Midnight Buffet or Chocolate Dessert Extravaganza.

On Board Shops:
The shop concessions would be brought in-house and become a tool used to feature and enhance the HAL brand.* No more Made-in-China junk-jewelry and cheap-o chocolates.* Good-bye tobacco and plastic trinkets.* This area becomes a showplace for items that are in-use and featured on the ships:* Rosenthal China, Teak Deckchairs, Frette Bedlinens, HAL/Serta Mattresses, Stephen Card prints, Special Edition HAL-Tumi Luggage (similar to pieces that Tumi brands for Lexus and Ducati), HAL-Special Edition KitchenAid or Cuisinart kitchen appliances/cookware/utensils (items featured in the Culinary Arts Center) - goods that would be ordered aboard and shipped home from a central warehouse (team up w/ Amazon.com?) at no extra charge.* Then we'd have separate jewelry stores run & branded by someone with a well-known/respected name like Tiffany, Shreve & Co or Gumps.

On Board Service:
No change for waiters and stewards other than better and continued education in English language and hotel/restaurant/bar service.

On-Board Cruise Consultants would become Mini-Cruise Director/Social Hosts: *They'd host semi-private cocktail parties and dinners for repeat passengers, lead semi-private shore excursions, host cruise-affinity groups (like Cruise Critic) to coffee & teas, and keep published office hours for meeting with guests for new cruise reservations.

Home Office:
The entire IT department would be gone through and re-aligned.* The website would be cleaned up, the reservations/pricing system would be re-worked, and there would be penalties for pricing errors. *

The reservations staff would have much better communications directed towards them with daily updates to itineraries, ship amenities, etc. to be read and acknowledged before a staff-member could log into the system and accept their first call of the day.

Itineraries:
Fewer 7-day cruises out of Fort Lauderdale, Seattle and San Diego as they've become too commoditized for the HAL market (that's Carnival territory).* The solution is more 10/11-day cruises with more varied/exotic itineraries and more at-sea days (where folks also happen to spend more money on-board for drinks, spa, shopping, casino, etc.) and more departures from Norfolk, San Francisco and Boston.

Adversising:
TA's & the traveling public would be retrained in the way they think of HAL by better and more focused advertising that details what makes HAL different from other cruise lines.

LAFFNVEGAS

December 10th, 2006, 05:45 PM

Brian, How well thought out and I am in agreement with you with the exception of one item. That is the 7 day cruises. I think that there are still far too many people that in order to be able to cruise they must do 7 day intineraries because of the time they can take off work. Many of the Baby Boomers are finding they are still working into their 60's but want to still be able to vacation. I was finally able to take our first 10 day cruise and because it was over Thanksgiving I expected more families. Boy, was I ever shocked. The average age was far older than I had ever experienced on any of my previous 9 HAL cruises. It was almost a shock. I had the opportunity to talk to several in the Neptune and for every one of them they were in their 80's and talked like this would be the last cruise they would ever take. I am sorry but if I am CEO of a large company my money would go into cruises where I could make money on the existing cruise and book future cruises. I would actually expand more on the west coast with year round cruises that could be done as back to backs. Such as do a typical Mexican Riviera one week then the next the Sea of Cortez. Like Peggy mentioned do these cruises more year round. Start some cruises out of San Fransisco maybe take it up north to Canada and return.

I do really like you ideas about the on-board shopping, that would be wonderful especially the HAL Tumi luggage. Then your idea about the On-Board Cruise consultants makes me wonder if you have been reading my mind Brian. Or is it Great Minds think a like;)

hammybee

December 10th, 2006, 05:57 PM

Any way I slice it, I come up with at least 2 distinct HAL personalities. And maybe this is OK, so long as there are not more personalities than ships. So given this, I want to figure out what each needs to do to be, to be the best in class and meet or exceed revenue goals set by my parent company.

More than half my fleet will be devoted to the highly competitive 7 day market in the Caribbean, Mexico and Alaska. It's a seasonal business and I am limited to where I can safely position my ships. The objective is to sail at 100% occupancy. I will do this by increasing my marketing to younger people, more family cruisers, groups and charters. These cruises will evolve to a more free style and country club casual attire enviornment because this is what this market segment wants.

I will devote the other half of my fleet to longer and/or more interesting intineraries and vary the back to back intineraries. This will be a traditional cruise experience and we will charge a premium for the value offered. This is where my more experienced crew belongs and the one most apt to continue to attract Mariner loyalty. Formal nights will remain but perhaps be reduced. Other nights will be country club casual.

I would revise my standards for onboard shop franchises and bring on better quality stuff that is best in class, with an emphasis on goods related to the ports being visited. I want every passenger to leave with something to remember the cruise by. And we are not talking gold by the inch or $10.99 watches. Onboard shopping will become a destination onto itself, with HAL branded goods.

I will create more rewarding premium onboard experiences for passengers, an active cooking school featuring local cuisine, guest lecturers, enviornmentally friendly skeet shooting and world class dancers. I would restore Social Hosts on select cruises, to get and keep the juices flowing.

Entertainment will require a complete overall and I think it worthwhile to bring on named talent and charge a premium for it.

I am going to bite the bullet and consolidate home office services with my parent company so that it makes economic sense to invest in technology and processing standards.

hammybee

December 10th, 2006, 06:09 PM

Dining:
I hesitate to bring the entire line back to "Traditional" dining with the exception of Prinsendam...

Brian,
We were keying at the same time and I got distracted. I am amazed how we are on the same wave length and even used some of the same terms. You obviously put more thought/detail into your response.

You achieved the split personaity within the same cruise and I did so by length and intinerary. Interesting that we both saw the need and came up with different ways to achieve them.

I adore your idea of Broadway shows and that we both see an opportunity for revenue enhancement.

I am not sure our HAL can get away from the 7 day hauls and still fill the cabins. Potential passenger time and financial resources as well as some darn iffy weather can make a trend towards longer cruises impractical.

And lastly, you are on the money with marketing and advertizing.

Good job Brian.

dougnewmanatsea

December 10th, 2006, 06:16 PM

I've decided to be radical and propose some shocking changes ;) .

First things first - change the name of EURODAM!

That one's a given :) . But of course that's not all.

Dining: On all ships except PRINSENDAM, introduce a flexible dining concept modeled after Princess' Personal Choice Dining. Offer "Traditional Dining" (two seatings - 6:15 and 8:45) on the lower level of the dining room, and "Restaurant Seating" (open seating - 5:30 to 9:30) on the upper level.

I really do not see the disadvantage of this - after all, those of us who like traditional dining can keep it, without discouraging new passengers as well as those who have tried open dining on other cruise lines and like it.

Do away with the nightly Baked Alaska offering, the Baked Alaska parade and Master Chef's Dinner. Instead, offer individual Baked Alaskas on the last formal night only, for those who must have them.

Offer an elegant afternoon tea service every day in the Explorers Lounge, with string music. Do away with the once-per-cruise "Royal Dutch High Tea", which is a misnomer anyway ("high tea" is something totally different, like an early dinner, and not at all elegant or formal).

Include all coffee (including in the Explorations Café!), and fountain soft drinks in the fare. Doing otherwise just seems tacky.

Entertainment: Get rid of the tiresome and dated "Las Vegas style" shows. They're expensive and too many people are tired of them.

Replace them with talented individual performers and groups.

Introduce a new and much wider-ranging enrichment program. Have a minimum of one port lecturer (a person who really knows about the area, not a "shopping expert"!) and one general interest lecturer on shorter cruises, and two or three general interest lecturers on longer cruises. Look at the lecure programs on Cunard and Crystal as an example.

On-board revenue: Art auctions, unfortunately, will have to be kept as they are too profitable. (But limit the extent to which the art auctioneers can promote themselves.) Completely revamp the on-board shopping offerings to eliminate tacky merchandise like "gold by the inch" and other cheap and tawdry offerings. Reposition the shops as upscale boutiques offering a range of exquisite items that are specially made for HAL and not available elsewhere. Bring in famous designers and luxury brands to create ranges of merchandise only available on HAL ships.

Itineraries: Reduce to a minimum the number of seven-day cruises and Caribbean, Mexican Riviera and Alaska itineraries. Try to restrict these itineraries to the Vista-class ships. The S-class and R-class ships should be positioned for more exotic itineraries which will attract higher fare levels and a more upscale clientele. Focus on Europe, Asia, Australia/New Zealand and South America. PRINSENDAM should be deployed on truly unique itineraries to ports that other ships don't usually visit.

Branding: Begin a new branding campaign that builds on the "Signature of Excellence" theme and highlights the ways that HAL is superior to mass-market lines like Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Princess and NCL. Emphasize that an HAL cruise is an upscale experience for those who want to see amazing places in luxurious surroundings, and that HAL can provide unique experiences inaccessible to passengers on the large mass-market ships. Try to attract well-travelled, sophisticated people who usually take land vacations and may not have considered cruising before. Position HAL as a cruise line for real travellers, not just tourists.

Attempt to create a strong enough brand perception to raise fares significantly above mass-market lines, and for the company to stop being dependent on charters and large corporate incentive groups.

hammybee

December 10th, 2006, 06:23 PM

[QUOTE=Host Doug]Do away with the nightly Baked Alaska offering, the Baked Alaska parade and Master Chef's Dinner. Instead, offer individual Baked Alaskas on the last formal night only, for those who must have them./QUOTE]

Gawd yes, Doug.

I absolutely hate the whole Parade of the Baked Alaska thing. I want competent service in the dining room not hee-haw entertainment. I comes off as cheesy and I find myself embarassed for the wait staff and passengers.

kryos

December 10th, 2006, 06:54 PM

For starters -- raise the price for cruising. HAL has lowered their prices so much and as a result have dropped many amenities that we old timers loved.

Remember ... you have to keep the ships full. To do that, you have to be price competitive. Raise the price too much, and a lot of people will just sail other lines. HAL will not be able to fill their ships.

I say offer options. Yes, the base cost of a cruise stays as low as possible, but people can opt for an "all inclusive" experience. They pay a premium rate, get premium service, including all-inclusive drinks and a special roped off section in the dining room where the traditions of ocean cruising are preserved, even if the rest of the line has gone "anytime dining" by that point. Dress codes in that roped off area are strictly enforced, and service is a bit more personalized and less rushed.

Maybe what we really need is the old class system to come back. Give the masses their cheap cruises ... bare bones inclusive (meals, entertainment, activities, etc. ... everything else extra charge) ... but give that relatively small segment of the population who wants the "old" HAL back, what they want too ... by offering a special "all inclusive" grand cruise experience. They'll pay for it ... probably as much as twice what others are paying in the same accommodations. But at least then everyone will be satisfied and HAL will be able to keep their ships full.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

December 10th, 2006, 07:04 PM

Itineraries: Reduce to a minimum the number of seven-day cruises and Caribbean, Mexican Riviera and Alaska itineraries. Try to restrict these itineraries to the Vista-class ships. The S-class and R-class ships should be positioned for more exotic itineraries which will attract higher fare levels and a more upscale clientele. Focus on Europe, Asia, Australia/New Zealand and South America. PRINSENDAM should be deployed on truly unique itineraries to ports that other ships don't usually visit.

I say make all the Vista class ships seven-day itineraries (longer for Caribbean routes originating and terminating in New York, obviously). Don't forget, those seven-dayers are HAL's bread and butter. You can't just do away with them and keep the line profitable. Younger cruisers (specifically what the cruise line is trying to attract as the older die-hard cruisers die off) can't take the longer, more exotic voyages. They have kids to raise, careers to build, house payments, car payments, etc. If it wasn't for those seven-day itineraries, they wouldn't be able to cruise. They would opt for land vacations instead.

So, HAL should do exactly what they've been doing ... have a two-pronged marketing campaign. The smaller ships targeted for unique voyages, longer trips, etc. and the Vistas marketed heavily to families and groups ... primarily seven-day itineraries ... popular destinations ... price as low as possible ... limited inclusiveness. Give 'em a dining room ... anytime dining ... whatever it takes to keep the expenses low. Fill the ships at whatever cost and then hope these folks spend lots onboard to make up the loss the line in many cases is taking on the cabins.

Then, the smaller vessels will target the more traditional cruisers ... more thought out itineraries, longer voyages, lots of "exotic" destinations, higher prices and more inclusiveness. Sure, drinks will probably be extra, but maybe limited soft drinks and water can be available in the cabins at no added cost. The prices on these voyages would be higher ... but then the service, the ammenities and the entire shipboard experience would be kicked up a notch to make it worth it. And, the people these voyages would appeal to would be the ones to whom the extra cost would probably not be an issue. They are older, in many cases retired, and living off the nest egg they've accumulated all their working life. They want the finer things in life now, and are willing to pay for them.

But, still ... you have to attract those younger cruisers too ... and for those people the Vista ships and popular itineraries would always have to be offered ... and at a very competitive price. Stop meeting their needs and HAL will go out of business within five years ... guaranteed.

Just my humble thoughts ... :)

Blue skies ...

--rita

dougnewmanatsea

December 10th, 2006, 07:20 PM

Maybe what we really need is the old class system to come back.
We already have one - it is just that we are not accomodating all of the "classes" on the same ship.

If people want an ultra-luxury all-inclusive product they can go to Seabourn, Silversea, etc.

If they want a basic mass-market product they can go to Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Princess or NCL.

I would like to see HAL sit somewhere in the middle.

the Vista ships and popular itineraries would always have to be offered ... and at a very competitive price. Stop meeting their needs and HAL will go out of business within five years ... guaranteed.
Really?

There are other cruise lines that don't offer cheap 7-day cruises and they do not seem to be out of business.

Look at Oceania, for example. Not a cheap 7-day cruise in sight, and they have had great success at attracting people who have defected from HAL, Celebrity and Princess because they want something better.

Had HAL decided to remain smaller, and keep smaller ships, I think they would be able to do without the cheap 7-day cruises they have today.

Of course with a large fleet as they have today, that might not be possible... But I would restrict them to a minimum.

Copper10-8

December 10th, 2006, 08:09 PM

Great thread, S7S!

I like a lot of the ideas by Brian and Doug!! Some more (some duplicates also for reinforcement!):

1. Get rid of that "Eurodam" name and change it to something more traditional along HAL's historical lines

2. Take up the option on that second Signature class ship but then concentrate on building two to four ships the size of Prinsendam with the same pax capacity. Once that first one rolls off the blocks, sell Prinsendam

3. Build/add dedicated movie theaters a la the Wajangs on all four Vista's and both Signatures

4. Get rid of the art auctions (I know, I know, they're money makers so the probably won't, but I'm playing CEO so they're outtahere)

5. Build a dedicated sports bar on all ships

6. Give the phone agents in Seattle "real" and up-to-date info on the status of the fleet (i.e. Oosterdam's sickly pod)

7. You screw up on giving out bad price info, you've bought it! Too bad, so sad. None of this "I'm sorry, we gave you the wrong cost, you owe us $$ more)

8. Get the "Dutch girl" back in the embarkation pics! (Come on HAL, that one is simple and painless! - You've got pirates, dolphins, sailors, Mexicans with sombreros, Mounties, etc. etc.)

9. Change/improve the onboard shops and get rid of the junk!

10. I have no problems with the production shows (like the music and energy) but don't let the same ones go on for years and years! Get rid of Tommy Tune or whatever that dude's name is. Take a look at Princess' entertainment and shows for pointers.

11. Bring back the original Dutch night menu

12. Consider seasonal cruises up north out of L.A. (or south out of S.F. for Dave and Brian;) ) with stops in Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo/Pismo/Morro Bay and Monterey.

13. Have more "international dinners" or at least offer those choices: Indonesian, Greek, Cuban, Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, Moroccan, Persian, you name it.

14. Expand the "Mariner program" and make it more meaningful i.e. time credits on use of the Internet Cafe, a "frequent cruiser" program similar to the airlines

15. Make the "Northern Lights" discos on the Vista's "kids only" and dedicate them to Club HAL. They're too small for a night club! Use the Crow's Nest for that purpose full-time like they do on the "R" and "S" classes

bepsf

December 10th, 2006, 09:01 PM

Lisa, Hammybee & Doug--

I'm impressed at how similar our visions of an improved yet still-profitable HAL are!* Hopefully, the folks in Seattle will take note! ;)

Hammy, I too hate the Baked Alaska parades (and probably the "Master Chef" madness, which I've never had the misfortune to witness...) but some folks will say it's a tradition - and it doesn't cost that much. ;)

Re: 7-day itineraries.* I absolutely wouldn't get rid of them all as I certainly understand the restrictions on vacation time, etc. (now more than ever...)* However, it seems silly to have 8 or 9 ships in Alaska doing variations on two 7-day itineraries - then later in the year, 3 ships doing essentially the same two 7-day Caribbean itineraries from Florida (down from 4 ships a couple years ago, fortunately).

Re:* Art Auctions, Cocktail prices, etc:* I don't like them any more than you do, but given the premise to strike a balance between profitability and improved ambience - I simply can't kiss off the $1MM+/cruise/week profits that these bring in.
:cool:

mechcc

December 10th, 2006, 09:17 PM

First thing, change the name of the Eurodam. Second, you post a price, you live with it (person responsible for review of internet pricing, is now sending resumes to RCL). Since HAL is not a small 5 star cruise line but rather a mass market line, it needs to find it's niche. That is taking the Vista and Signature Classes and make them 7 dayers and appealling to the younger and family crowd. Two on the West Coast with cruises from Seattle, San Fransico, San Diego, Los Angeles depending on season. Two on the East Coast with cruises out of New York, Boston, and FLL depending again on season. One on that neglected Gulf Coast of Texas or New Orleans (okay I'm selfish). And One that rotates depending on season. But one of these ships would stay in the Carribbean all year long. These ships would have the traditional dining at 6:15 and 8:30 on lower level with upper level being anytime. Those things like the gracious crew, wonderful service and understated elegance of the ships would be retained (like the teak decks and wood lounge chairs). Rules of dress would still be there but maybe relaxed after dinner and informal night would be out of the lineup (who needs it on a 7 nighter?). These ships would be to appeal to families and build loyalty for later in their lives when they would be switched too the R & S class.

The R & S class would remain the traditional cruise experience and would include nothing but 10 to 30 day cruises (and world cruise) either out of exotic ports or to exotic places. Traditional dining all the way with traditional dress. These cruises would avoid the family centered places. They might include a cruise from Canada down the Eastern Coast (Historical cruise themes) or Western American Coast (again historical cruise theme). Which brings up cruises designed with themes and educational speakers and sights - think Greek Isles or Great Britian or retrace Alexander the Great. Possiblities are endless.

Would add back 2 tote bags per cabin, eliminate baked alaska parade (except on Alaska cruises), expand choices on menu (maybe by adding an entree from a international menu each night) and make Dutch night menu more upscale. Add a standard steak, chicken and fish option available each and every night in addition to the menu for that night. Make the tiles a true white and blue like delft china, not that awful tan and blue. And would advertise port expert speakers that are really shopping guides as "Join our Port Expert Shopping Guide for Details on X-Port Shopping Bargains". Put the Art Auctions in the Crows Nest during the day. And last but not least, listen to my customers through e-mails, mass mailings and cruise boards. Do like the idea of dancing under the stars that Brian mentioned. Get rid of the tired Newlywed Game and maybe add a Dancing Contest (to follow the current craze started by Dancing with the Stars).

AZjohn

December 10th, 2006, 09:23 PM

diboja

December 11th, 2006, 09:09 AM

An earlier comment on this thread was not posted by me - but by my smarta$$ grandson who is now locked up in the doghouse ;)

This is an interesting thread and I can't add anything over what has been said as I have only cruised a few times....

kruisekathy

December 11th, 2006, 09:13 AM

I personally feel that if you are aiming at a younger crowd, you must relax the dress code. My kids (30 somethings) love 10 day and longer cruises, love good food and good service but aren't real hot on dress codes. They don't mind dressing for dinner but change immediately after dinner. To ban shorts is one thing but to insist on ties and jackets just doesn't fly with them. Face it, society is changing and to be successful you must change with the times. The seniors that are the majority on HAL can not be counted on for long term future cruises. However my 3 year old granddaughter going on her 4th cruise certainly can be considered the future. Strict dress codes are not going to keep her parents on HAL. I think formal nights are lovely, enjoy dressing up, but I am a different generation and as a "pretend" CEO, must face the fact that the younger generation has never had a dress code and are not about to start while on vacation.

Krazy Kruizers

December 11th, 2006, 09:23 AM

HAL should give free internet service for frequent cruisers like Princess does.

kryos

December 11th, 2006, 09:37 AM

We already have one - it is just that we are not accomodating all of the "classes" on the same ship.

If people want an ultra-luxury all-inclusive product they can go to Seabourn, Silversea, etc.

If they want a basic mass-market product they can go to Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Princess or NCL.

I would like to see HAL sit somewhere in the middle.
I didn't mean THAT high a class. I'm talking about something for the folks who want a more "traditional" cruise experience ... the fine dining ... with waiters who don't have five tables to serve and will have the time to be friendly and sociable, more custom-prepared food ... something that can't be done in the main dining room. To go Seabourn or Silversea is really an entirely different level ... one that some people who like the traditions of cruising just can't afford. HAL should do exactly what you say ... offer these folks something in between ... but something that they will have to pay a bit extra for if they truly want it. The color of their stateroom card would denote that they have paid for a "semi-all inclusive" experience ... which might include free wine pours only at dinner, and a special section of the dining room (mainly in the event the fleet one day goes "anytime dining") ... this special section would adhere to the traditions of cruising, including set dress codes and traditional seating. Other than that, everything would remain the same.

There are other cruise lines that don't offer cheap 7-day cruises and they do not seem to be out of business.

Look at Oceania, for example. Not a cheap 7-day cruise in sight, and they have had great success at attracting people who have defected from HAL, Celebrity and Princess because they want something better.

Had HAL decided to remain smaller, and keep smaller ships, I think they would be able to do without the cheap 7-day cruises they have today.

Of course with a large fleet as they have today, that might not be possible... But I would restrict them to a minimum.
Exactly. HAL can't turn back the clock. They already have a fleet of what? Fourteen ships once the Eurodam comes online? Too late to look back. They have to go forward. And that means all of those ships need to be filled each and every cruise. HAL has no choice. Cheap 7-night itineraries by the hundreds have to be offered. If not, they will go under. After all, many of those ships have mortgages (or whatever you call them in the maritime industry) on them. Those payments have to be made ... along with the payments for the huge maintenance and fuel expenses those ships accumulate every week. So, in the case of HAL, they have to keep the mass market happy as well ... and the mass market will not be happy with expensive, long duration voyages. They want the quickie seven-day Caribbean cruise that is priced low enough so that they can bring the kids along too. If HAL doesn't offer them that, then fine ... they'll go Carnival or Royal Caribbean or Princess or whatever.

So exactly because they have such a big fleet, HAL has to find a way to attract and keep these seven-day folks happy ... by, if anything, undercutting the other lines in price (and also to make up for the fact that HAL ships don't offer the ammenities that some of those other ships do) and then giving those same folks an onboard experience that is maybe just a cut above what they can get on those other lines in order to keep them coming back.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

December 11th, 2006, 09:41 AM

HAL should give free internet service for frequent cruisers like Princess does.
I can agree with a set number of minutes free for long-time cruisers. But, please ... please don't go the Princess route with unlimited free internet. That means you'll spend an hour minimum just to check one email box because the internet will be so slowwwwww since all of those "freebie" folks will be parked at the terminals (especially on sea days) working their ebay sites and doing all manner of stuff that I don't believe the ship's internet was ever designed to handle.

The person paying for internet will be spending a bundle ... and I do mean a bundle ... just to check email.

Not fair.

Give long-time Mariners so many hours free ... based on their Mariner status ... but not unlimited free internet.

Blue skies ...

--rita

dougnewmanatsea

December 11th, 2006, 11:59 AM

I'm talking about something for the folks who want a more "traditional" cruise experience ... the fine dining ... with waiters who don't have five tables to serve and will have the time to be friendly and sociable, more custom-prepared food ... something that can't be done in the main dining room.
I think this is called Grill Class, and you can find it on Cunard ;) .

Exactly. HAL can't turn back the clock. They already have a fleet of what? Fourteen ships once the Eurodam comes online? Too late to look back. They have to go forward.
I say, give the Vistas to Costa, make EURODAM a sister to QUEEN VICTORIA, and build new ships that are the size of AMSTERDAM but with more balconies.

How's that ;) ?

If HAL doesn't offer them that, then fine ... they'll go Carnival or Royal Caribbean or Princess or whatever.
Ah, yes, but why should they go to HAL in the first place?

It seems to me that most of the people you are talking about would be happier on another line anyway.

HAL cannot and should not be all things to all people. With so many other brands in their corporate "family" (Carnival, Princess, Cunard, Costa, etc.), it is not necessary.

jhannah

December 11th, 2006, 12:53 PM

I say, give the Vistas to Costa, make EURODAM a sister to QUEEN VICTORIA, and build new ships that are the size of AMSTERDAM but with more balconies. I like it! That's a great idea. The Amsterdam and Rotterdam are excellent combinations of size and amenities. More of them would be a good thing, IMO.

kryos

December 11th, 2006, 01:10 PM

I personally feel that if you are aiming at a younger crowd, you must relax the dress code. My kids (30 somethings) love 10 day and longer cruises, love good food and good service but aren't real hot on dress codes.
I'm sure the Vista ships would have some longer itineraries ... i.e., repositioning or panama canal transit cruises. I say on the Vista ships, go NCL's route with resort casual being the only requirement. Then, perhaps have an OPTIONAL formal night in one of the other venues ... i.e., have full tableside service in the Lido that night ... everyone who wants to eat there that night must dress formally and the entire dinner would be a very formal production. Then, once dinner was over those people could opt to either remain in their formal attire for the evening, or change into something more casual ... cause the rest of the ship would be resort casual that evening ... same as every other evening.

Then only the smaller ships ... that always did longer itineraries (probably 14 days and up) would stick with the traditional HAL dining scenario ... formal, informal and casual nights.

I agree ... younger people today are frequently not into the formal dress codes and I have one good friend who says that is precisely why she won't cruise. She said there is no way she is gonna get her husband into a jacket and tie while he's on vacation. He has to dress everyday for work and be "dammed" if he's gonna dress up when he's on his time ... on his vacation. She said that it's ditto with her. She's not about to nag her kids into getting dressed up just so they can eat dinner. She said it would be an uphill battle all the way, and would leave her too exhausted to enjoy dinner. So, for this reason, her family generally takes their vacations either at seaside towns where one could walk into a restaurant in beach wear with a cover up, and nary an eyebrow would be raised. They've also done all-inclusive resort vacations and she says that most of the restaurants on the property don't have any real dress code whatsoever.

Frankly, I can understand her point. Imagine trying to get three kids dressed for a 6:15 p.m. dinner seating on a formal night. It could be an absolute nightmare ... and clearly more trouble than it's worth. I'd just take 'em to the Lido. :) But ... when I told her she could always do that, her response was that she really didn't see why SHE should dine in a cafeteria just because of a formal night requirement. She'd prefer to just stick with her resorts ... where she can still dine in just about any restaurant she chooses without the necessity of getting dressed up. Can't say that I blame her.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

December 11th, 2006, 01:21 PM

Ah, yes, but why should they go to HAL in the first place?

It seems to me that most of the people you are talking about would be happier on another line anyway.

HAL cannot and should not be all things to all people. With so many other brands in their corporate "family" (Carnival, Princess, Cunard, Costa, etc.), it is not necessary.
But I thought the premise of this whole thread was that we had to "keep the cash registers ringing ... and fill the ships." Well, if we're gonna do that, then maybe HAL needs to try and be all things to the majority of people. Otherwise, those people will do exactly what you suggest and go elsewhere. Now the HAL ships ain't filled ... and we're fired from our new job as President/CEO. :)

Sure, if I had my way, I'd agree 100% with you. Shrink the fleet to maybe six Amsterdam sized ships ... more balconies ... more expensive cruises ... more tradition. But sadly, that won't keep HAL as profitable as it probably is today ... and if it's profitability we're after, we have to plan for it based on a 14-ship fleet ... with some pretty large ships ... cause that's exactly what HAL has. So, we need to plan on ways to appeal to that up and coming family market. Well, let's see ... we can't get them with stuff like rock walls and ice skating rinks ... cause we don't have 'em ... at least not on our current fleet of ships ... so what can we offer them? A really nice informal atmosphere onboard ... dining anytime ... casual dress codes ... nice seven-day itineraries ... great kids' club ammenities ... really great deals for third and fourth passengers (kids) in a stateroom ... some sailings where kids sail free in their parents' staterooms, etc. But, when you offer these kinds of rates, you lose money. You're not even breaking even on that stateroom. So, you have to make it up somewhere, and you make it up by charging extra for just about everything onboard ... and enticing those passengers to be willing to pay extra for those things.

The only thing I would like to see, though, is HAL separate these two classes of passenger ... the ones looking for the cheap family vacation ... and those looking for a true voyage. Have different ships that cater to each group and pricing that will entice each group. For the traditionalists, yes, the price can be higher ... and chances are they will gladly pay it if they are getting the experience they want. I say kick HAL up a notch for those cruisers. Charge a bit more, but give them a bit more. Perhaps free house wine pours with dinner ... free soft drinks, traditional dining, "events" onboard such as the Black and White Ball, Officers Ball, etc., Explorations Speakers Series, more free classes presented by the gym staff, the Explorations Cafe staff, photo shop staff, etc. After all, these longer cruises are gonna have more sea days in most cases, so you need these added ammenities.

But on the Vistas ... seven-dayers ... they will spend at least four to five days in port ... so you don't need any of these special classes and lectures ... thus HAL could save the money. Offer those people a cruise. Period. And then set the line up to maximize the profit potential of every single ammenity those folks may want onboard ... from a Coke to a specialty ice cream cone ... and so much more. Heck, I'd even charge a fee for contest participation (such as karoke contests, etc.) if I could get away with it. Maximize onboard revenue so that you can minimize base cabin costs. That's how you get these cruisers onboard, and wind up making more money off of them than what you would have with the higher prices on the cabins.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

December 11th, 2006, 01:33 PM

Hmmmm…. Me, the new CEO of HAL?

OK, the first thing I would do is to thank every employee and staff member and let them know they have done a wonderful job and hand out a nice year end bonus check to all.:D

John
Now we're talking! I only hope HAL takes good care of their wonderful staff ... especially those in the jobs at the lower rungs ... at Christmastime ... with bonus checks and yes, a hearty thank you for a job very, very well done all year long.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kruisekathy

December 11th, 2006, 02:04 PM

I agree with most of what has been said, with a few exceptions. I think HAL has to find a middle road and perfect it. NCL has many lovers of their free style. IMO it stinks. They have not perfected it. The dining venues are a joke. The service is terrible and the food not much better. They still have formal nights but rather than making one dining room "formal" anything goes so you may be in a gown or tux and your tablemates are in capri's and a tee. HAL definately doesn't want that environment. I like the idea of upstairs being informal anytime and down traditional. Very similar to Princess, which works very well. My kids travel with their kids and like the whole cruising experience. They just aren't big on formal all night. The idea is nice but not a plus for younger travelers. I also like the idea of a reduced rate for kids. If they are willing to cram 4 people into a small cabin, give them a break. A real break. When they are bringing toddlers along it doesn't really cost the ship much because the kids don't eat much at all. After giving my opinions, just let it be known, I don't want the job of CEO. I like being the guest!

peaches from georgia

December 11th, 2006, 02:44 PM

We are on the Vol as we speak and will have a review later. However, I have to mention briefly that the quality of the menus and the food itself has gone downhill. Cruising with HAL friends and have met many longtime HAL cruisers and they all say the same thing. The menus are familiar, but....... the best selections are missing. And then the food is nowhere as good when served.

MANY nights where most of us couldn't find even one entree we really liked and several only one or possibly 2 were attractive. I stress---- this is consensus opinion of many longtime HAL fans!

Second formal night is a waste of time and should be eliminated entirely. No special menu, in fact one of the least desirable menus of the whole 10 days. We've gone to Pinnacle twice (VERY GOOD), room service with friends once, and tomorrow night a special dinner in the Penthouse just because no one really is thrilled with what the dr will serve. Understand meat loaf will be offered and our friends in the PH will not have to go that route.

Yes, having a good time, but not the old HAL of even a year ago!

jhannah

December 11th, 2006, 02:45 PM

Frankly, I can understand her point. Imagine trying to get three kids dressed for a 6:15 p.m. dinner seating on a formal night. It could be an absolute nightmare ... and clearly more trouble than it's worth. I'd just take 'em to the Lido. :) But ... when I told her she could always do that, her response was that she really didn't see why SHE should dine in a cafeteria just because of a formal night requirement. She'd prefer to just stick with her resorts ... I agree. She should stick with the resorts. I don't think all cruise lines should try to homogonize into one-size-fits-all by, among other things, doing away with formal dining.

If I were CEO I would maintain the traditional aspects of classic cruising and enforce dining room dress codes.

ekerr19

December 11th, 2006, 11:20 PM

5. Build a dedicated sports bar on all ships

John - I agree!!!! And because they now offer cell phone coverage for crying out loud- you'd think we could have a feed other than just ESPN International!!! Especially during playoffs, Superbowl, etc.

Great posts everyone - great thread Sail. :)

dougnewmanatsea

December 12th, 2006, 12:00 AM

Then only the smaller ships ... that always did longer itineraries (probably 14 days and up) would stick with the traditional HAL dining scenario ... formal, informal and casual nights.
This would have the effect of creating a great deal of confusion.

Most people are not so interested in the specific ship they are sailing in. They expect a cruise line to have a consistent product across the board.

I agree ... younger people today are frequently not into the formal dress codes and I have one good friend who says that is precisely why she won't cruise. She said there is no way she is gonna get her husband into a jacket and tie while he's on vacation.
There are plenty of choices if if your friend wants a "resort casual" cruise, from NCL in the mass-market segment to Windstar and Oceania in the premium segment and SeaDream in the luxury segment.

Just because HAL is not right for her does not mean it is not right for everyone.

I do agree that HAL will have to become less traditional and move with the times... Hence my proposal for an open-seating dining choice... But at this point in time, doing away with formal nights would be too alienating to HAL's existing passengers.

Change must come, but it cannot come too quickly either.

But I thought the premise of this whole thread was that we had to "keep the cash registers ringing ... and fill the ships."
Ah yes, but as I would get rid of some of the ships, this would mean fewer ships to fill and the possibility of rising fares.

Sure, if I had my way, I'd agree 100% with you. Shrink the fleet to maybe six Amsterdam sized ships ... more balconies ... more expensive cruises ... more tradition.
Why not shrink the fleet? I would not go down to six ships - that is too small - but nobody said we have to keep filling the existing ships, just whatever ships we have.

And I did not necessarily say "more tradition"... I don't think going further upmarket and moving backwards necessarily go hand in hand. If HAL were to roll back the clock ten years to 1997, that would not make HAL a more upmarket product in the eyes of today's market. It would just make it a more outdated one.

But sadly, that won't keep HAL as profitable as it probably is today ... and if it's profitability we're after, we have to plan for it based on a 14-ship fleet ... with some pretty large ships ... cause that's exactly what HAL has.
But it is not set in stone that they have to keep that fleet!

The most profitable cruise line in the world is Carnival - but that does not mean that the best thing for HAL is just to emulate Carnival!

Carnival and Princess already cover the mass-market segment well enough. I would move HAL further upmarket to combat Oceania and retain existing HAL passengers - and Princess passengers - who might otherwise defect there.

If this means shrinking HAL's fleet, so be it.

So, we need to plan on ways to appeal to that up and coming family market.
Why does the up and coming market have to include families?

I am not sure about the assertion that "younger people" necessarily means "people with kids". It seems to me that everyone assumes that cruise lines must target either a) tradition-bound senior citizens or b) families with children. What about all the people who don't fit into one of those groups?

The only thing I would like to see, though, is HAL separate these two classes of passenger ... the ones looking for the cheap family vacation ... and those looking for a true voyage. Have different ships that cater to each group and pricing that will entice each group.
I still think this would be a disaster for the HAL brand. There is a reason that Carnival Corporation & plc has different brands for different market segments!

HAL is supposed to be a more upmarket brand than Carnival or Princess. What you would basically do is create two cruise lines out of HAL - one would fit in below Carnival and one above Princess. Both would be called "Holland America Line" but they would be totally different products aimed at totally different audiences. Unfortunately your "more upmarket" HAL would be inextricably linked with the "cheap HAL". It is nothing more than a recipe for confusion in the marketplace, by selling totally different products under the same name. Passenger sailing on the "cheap HAL" would feel cheated and mislead because they'd expect the "upscale HAL", while potential customers for the "upscale HAL" would be seriously turned off by the association with the cheapened version.

Personally I do not think that HAL can compete directly with Carnival, Princess, Royal Caribbean or NCL. They will never beat those lines at their own game... Those other lines will always be better at serving their mass-market audience. HAL needs to focus more on carving out some other niche, rather than simply becoming a "me-too" brand that is nothing more than Carnival without the "fun" or NCL without the "freedom".

Atomica

December 12th, 2006, 12:51 AM

Personally I do not think that HAL can compete directly with Carnival, Princess, Royal Caribbean or NCL. They will never beat those lines at their own game... Those other lines will always be better at serving their mass-market audience. HAL needs to focus more on carving out some other niche, rather than simply becoming a "me-too" brand that is nothing more than Carnival without the "fun" or NCL without the "freedom".

I have to say I totally agree with that. Personally, I've always thought of HAL as going head-to-head with Oceania, Celebrity and even MSC, and I think it fits into that category better than that of, say, Royal Caribbean or Princess.

kryos

December 12th, 2006, 09:54 AM

I agree. She should stick with the resorts. I don't think all cruise lines should try to homogonize into one-size-fits-all by, among other things, doing away with formal dining.

If I were CEO I would maintain the traditional aspects of classic cruising and enforce dining room dress codes.
Again, I have 14 ships to fill ... I'd really like to get her family's business. True, if HAL was a start-up cruise line ... planning their overall strategy, I would agree with you ... and I would have a smaller fleet so that I didn't have so many cabins to fill every week and could thus find my "niche" as a premium cruise line with all the touches of classic ocean liner cruises ... including the strictly enforced dress codes.

Look at Cunard. They only have two ships ... and they uphold the dress codes that are far more formal than HAL. But then because they only have two ships in their fleet, they can focus their appeal on the types of people who enjoy that type of cruise experience, and let all the others go to other lines.

HAL can't afford to do that ... not with 14 ships ... and not if they are gonna remain profitable. Their die has been cast and therefore they have to work within existing parameters.

I still say, make the Vistas family-oriented ... with very, very relaxed dress codes.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

December 12th, 2006, 10:03 AM

I do agree that HAL will have to become less traditional and move with the times... Hence my proposal for an open-seating dining choice... But at this point in time, doing away with formal nights would be too alienating to HAL's existing passengers.

Change must come, but it cannot come too quickly either.

I never said "do away" with formal nights. Either make them optional on the Vistas, or perhaps have one formal night on a seven-day Vista cruise ... with the formal attire only enforced in the main dining room. Then HAL could see what the response to formal night is, and determine their future strategy based on that. If the dining room is consistently empty on that one formal night, with most of the passengers opting to eat in the Lido or order room service, then perhaps HAL may want to discontinue the mandatory formal night altogether and make it strictly optional.

I still say HAL's die-hard cruising population ... the ones who enjoy all the trappings of traditional cruising ... is generally not gonna be found on a seven-day Caribbean Vista sailing. Oh, sure ... you will have exceptions ... but not that many. Most of HAL's historic customer base is gonna be doing the longer, more "exotic" itineraries on the smaller ships. They're generally older and have been to the Caribbean dozens of times. They want different cruise experiences ... Europe, Hawaii, the Baltics, etc. They now have more time to travel and the money to do these longer itineraries. They're the ones who will be alienated if you did away with formal nights because their needs are different and they like the idea of getting dressed up and showing off their finery. The family sailing to Caribbean ports have entirely different needs, and there is no reason HAL, with 14 ships, can't cater to the needs of both groups without alienating either one.

Blue skies ...

--rita

babyher

December 12th, 2006, 10:22 AM

Rita

Once again I agree .....(us Paisans really do think alike *LOL*)

I do understand what Jim is saying and also see his side (Hows that for being diplomatic :))

But like you said with 14 ships to fill you need to diversify. What any company is striveing for is the long term repeat business . So you gear a few ships to your families , like Hal has been doing with the Vista ships. Not neccessarily make it another Disney ship, but "family friendly" .

Then you keep a certain amount of ships in the traditional HAL style for when the parents want to cruise alone or as the children grow up and out of "family friendly ", Club HAL years . Not saying booze cruises or party boats , but something to attract the younger (20, 30 somethings)

And then keep a few ships for the longer, more exotic (traditionally older crowd ) cruises , much as the Prinsendam is doing now.

This is completely my humble UNexpert opinion :). but with 14 ships they can strike a balance.

hammybee

December 12th, 2006, 11:14 AM

This would have the effect of creating a great deal of confusion.

Most people are not so interested in the specific ship they are sailing in. They expect a cruise line to have a consistent product across the board.

Unfortunately your "more upmarket" HAL would be inextricably linked with the "cheap HAL". It is nothing more than a recipe for confusion in the marketplace, by selling totally different products under the same name. Passenger sailing on the "cheap HAL" would feel cheated and mislead because they'd expect the "upscale HAL", while potential customers for the "upscale HAL" would be seriously turned off by the association with the cheapened version.

Doug, As I was reading this, it seemed to me that you were describing the HAL of today, not the future.

I do not think HAL has a consistent product. I think the 7 day Caribbean runs are vastly different products than the longer voyages. And there is nothing wrong with this. I also think there there is the cheap HAL and the other HAL.
There are too many ships too fill and come winter, too few places to position them, forcing HAL to go toe-to-toe with all the other mass marketed cruise lines.

kryos

December 12th, 2006, 11:58 AM

Then you keep a certain amount of ships in the traditional HAL style for when the parents want to cruise alone or as the children grow up and out of "family friendly ", Club HAL years . Not saying booze cruises or party boats , but something to attract the younger (20, 30 somethings)

I doubt HAL would ever become a party boat. Since they do very few short trips ... i.e., three and four-day "weekender" voyages ... they won't attract the "party boat" crowd that Carnival gets. HAL, in my opinion, will always draw the young, family market on their Vistas ... and they will do that through price wars since they can't attract them with the ammenities of a Royal Caribbean or Disney ship. So, HAL will offer killer deals on their Vista ships ... deals that will actually have them taking a loss on some cabins in favor of making the money with onboard charges ... and that's how they will keep them filled. They'll keep those ships sailing popular "family style" destinations (Caribbean, Mexico, Alaska, etc.) and offer young families more of what they are looking for ... continued improvements in the Club HAL program, attractively priced drink specials, Coke packages for the kids, relaxed dress codes and expanded children's menu in the dining rooms ... and combined with the lower prices, those things will keep the families coming back time and time again. Simply put, if they can get a cheaper family vacation onboard a HAL ship, maybe they'll consider bagging the resort destination or Disney park most years.

So, I figure that as long as the "died in the wool" HAL cruiser stays away from the seven-dayers on the Vista ships, we should still get a lot of what we are looking for too.

Keep everybody happy. Isn't that the name of the game when you have so many ships to fill?

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

December 12th, 2006, 12:05 PM

I think the 7 day Caribbean runs are vastly different products than the longer voyages. And there is nothing wrong with this.
As a sidenote ... I could not believe the difference on the same ship ... the Amsterdam ... between a ten-day Panama Canal Sunfarer voyage and my 30-day Hawaii/South Pacific voyage last January. Don't get me wrong ... my cruise this past October was wonderful too ... but absolutely NOTHING like the one in January. The October cruise was more very tightly-knit family and friends groups ... people tended to stick together within their groups and not necessarily welcome conversation with a stranger ... less activities onboard and those that were there either focused on the "Dam dollars" promotions, or revenue-generating stuff like art auctions, spa, jewelry and art lectures (sales presentations), etc. Things just weren't done in a "big way" on this last cruise ... not the way they were on my January one. On that cruise, there were a lot of activities done that were just for the benefit of the passenger demographic onboard ... i.e., singles and solos gatherings, more diverse lectures, games, art tours of the ship, etc. Things that don't necessarily make extra money for the line ... but rather are just things that the passengers enjoy.

I thank God that on my cruise this past October I went along with a friend. If I had been sailing that voyage solo, I don't think I would have had the great time I've had on past cruises ... especially if there wasn't an active CC roll call on the sailing.

In the future, I'm gonna try to do only "voyages," and stay away from cruises. I still don't know how I am gonna work this out considering I still work ... and will continue to work for many more years ... but at least I'm gonna try.

Blue skies ...

--rita

babyher

December 12th, 2006, 12:13 PM

Rita ,

Exactly,

All those things you mentioned are great :) You said it exactly how I was trying to describe it. Family friendly doesn't have to mean rock climbing walls and ice skating rinks.

kryos

December 12th, 2006, 12:31 PM

Family friendly doesn't have to mean rock climbing walls and ice skating rinks.
I've never actually priced it out ... because I'm not interested ... but from what I understand a Royal Caribbean cruise on one of their "rock wall" ships is not cheap. A friend of mine from work took an RCCL cruise ... a group of, I believe, seven ... and I believe she paid a mint for it ... something like seven or eight grand just for the cabins, if I am not mistaken. I honestly think she could have done much better on HAL, but her kids wanted Royal Caribbean. But she told me that she won't give her kids Disney ... it's way too expensive even for the rock bottom accommodations. They'll do the Disney parks ... because they can choose better priced accommodations outside of them ... but not the cruise ships ... they are just way out of her ballpark, as is the case for many families.

So HAL will always have a niche in the family market ... a nice low-cost alternative for the family who wants to have a nice vacation, yet cannot possibly afford the Disney or RCCL cruise. And, if they keep their prices on the Vista ships rock bottom, they'll scoop up all of RCCL and Disney's leftovers ... and make quite a tidy profit on the family market. :)

Blue skies ...

--rita

fcorey

December 12th, 2006, 04:30 PM

I've never actually priced it out ... because I'm not interested ... but from what I understand a Royal Caribbean cruise on one of their "rock wall" ships is not cheap. A friend of mine from work took an RCCL cruise ... a group of, I believe, seven ... and I believe she paid a mint for it ... something like seven or eight grand just for the cabins, if I am not mistaken. I honestly think she could have done much better on HAL, but her kids wanted Royal Caribbean. But she told me that she won't give her kids Disney ... it's way too expensive even for the rock bottom accommodations. They'll do the Disney parks ... because they can choose better priced accommodations outside of them ... but not the cruise ships ... they are just way out of her ballpark, as is the case for many families.

So HAL will always have a niche in the family market ... a nice low-cost alternative for the family who wants to have a nice vacation, yet cannot possibly afford the Disney or RCCL cruise. And, if they keep their prices on the Vista ships rock bottom, they'll scoop up all of RCCL and Disney's leftovers ... and make quite a tidy profit on the family market. :)

Blue skies ...

--rita

Rita, thats probably hapening already, I priced out an RCCL cruise when we were shopping earlier this year and they were about 20% more than HAL for one of the larger Voyager ships or the new 160,000 ton monster