The Negative - Why?

[ekerr19]

Can someone please tell me why unbased negative critiques on this board seem to outweigh any of the positive actual experiences? Is it society? Regional differences?

Why is it we cannot post our own view (from past experience) without being flamed? I've read so much negative on the HAL board in the past few weeks (based on very little fact), I'm so curious.

It seems to be that "my way, or no way", with little respect for any differing opinion prevails... Can someone please explain this to me?

[gizmo]

Can someone please tell me why unbased negative critiques on this board seem to outweigh any of the positive actual experiences? Is it society? Regional differences?
Human nature. People like to discuss things and everyone has different views on a subject. The board would be very boring if everyone posted how wonderful everything was. What are the "unbased negative critiques" you are referring to?

Why is it we cannot post our own view (from past experience) without being flamed? I've read so much negative on the HAL board in the past few weeks (based on very little fact), I'm so curious.
I am curious. Which threads are you referring to? If it is dress code, tipping, or kids these subjects are always hot on this boad and even other boards.
I would add the changes Hal has been making, like cut backs and poor service, these past couple of months to this list also. These threads will always bring out different opinions.

It seems to be that "my way, or no way", with little respect for any differing opinion prevails... Can someone please explain this to me?
Sometimes people post something and the person reading it takes it the wrong way. People do have strong feeling about things and like to debate their side.

[RevNeal]

Here is another interesting observation: it wasn't all that long ago that many of us here on the HAL CC Board were castigated for being noting but unabashed shills for the cruise line. We were bashed for heaping praise on HAL, for being incapable of finding ANY flaw with the line or its services, and for not being willing to accept any kind of criticism at all. Indeed, some of us who are now offering complaints and negative observations were held up for ridicule for being the most unwilling to accept criticism.

Remember those days? :)

My how things change. Or do they?

[jhannah]

Nope. Nothing's changed. As humans, we seem to have the trait of "oneupmanship." If you post a positive, I know better. If you post a negative, I know better. And if my experience onboard was strong (either positive or negative) I would find it difficult to believe anyone had an opposite experience. If some posts read like the poster is a shill, then just be happy for them that they had such a wonderful experience that they want, in their excitement, to tell everyone. If the post is terribly negative, then understand that the poster truly had a bad experience or is prone to be a complainer by nature, or a combination of the two.

[gizmo]

Here is another interesting observation: it wasn't all that long ago that many of us here on the HAL CC Board were castigated for being noting but unabashed shills for the cruise line. We were bashed for heaping praise on HAL, for being incapable of finding ANY flaw with the line or its services, and for not being willing to accept any kind of criticism at all. Indeed, some of us who are now offering complaints and negative observations were held up for ridicule for being the most unwilling to accept criticism.

Remember those days? :)

My how things change. Or do they?
Good observation Rev. I sure do remember those days !!!!

[ryansmemom]

My observation has been that as long as people stick to reporting their experience, positive or negative, things seem fine. Most of us are open to hearing someone's honest evaluation of their personal experience, opinions, evaluations, etc.

The heat gets turned up when people try to convince others that their way is the only]way. Or when they speak using broad generalizations or universals, for example, ###is the worst ship ever, or formal nights are gone forever, or no shorts in dining room.

These threads wear people down after a while, to a point where people who are usually very civil find themselves becoming less so. Out of their frustration and pain, yes pain, they end up saying things they would never have thought they would say. How, embarrassing. Thank goodness, the moderators cut the thread off.

This language and tone are inflamatory. These words are used to stir the pot and get everyone all riled up. Someone just wants to have some fun at other people's expense. Some people seem to enjoy this type of debate. That is fine if all of the people involved are aware of it and participate in the debate willingly. Consenting adults can do just about anything they want to do, in my opinion. The operant words are consenting adults. Unfortunatly, many of us have not been asked if we want to participate in this type of debate, we just get caught up, emotionally, and suffer for it. Unfortunatly, for some of the people who start these thread that is part of the fun.

I wish there was a way the board gods could stop this kind of abuse of innocent people's emotions. It is very disruptive and painful. I know, I have suffered this myself. I would like to see these inflammatory threads cut before people get stirred up and hurt.



Linda

[superstein61]

I like to see BOTH the positives and negatives. It provides a much more balanced view of things.

I do remember reading these boards a few years ago - and all you saw were the unabashed HAL shills (sorry Rev Neal - you were one of them) who thought HAL could do nothing wrong. Anyone posting a negative opionion of HAL was castigated and ridiculed. I am glad to see that has changed and people finally realized what others had been saying all along - that no cruise line is perfect, and that HAL has its good and bad points

[gizmo]

Since I was the one that started the thread asking for opinions on "shorts in the dining room" I am going to comment again.

The thread was not started to "stir the pot" or to "have fun". The normal "dress code" threads were always about dinner. Mine was about breakfast and lunch and based on an incident that took place on one cruise on the Statendam.

[RevNeal]

superstein61,

It's always amazing to see how different people will perceive the same things in different ways. One side thought that the "HAL Haters" were vicious, mean, and delighted in launching unwarranted lies and personal attacks, while the other side thought that the "HAL shills" could see no wrong with their favorite Cruise Line while bashing and demeaning those who voiced dissent. My own memory and opinion of those days is that EACH SIDE gave about as good as they got, and neither side appreciated the stereotyping, name-calling, and broad-brush tactics of the other.

Personally, I never thought of myself as a "shill" for the Line (I was loyal to my cruise line of choice, but not blindly-so). Read my first review of a Holland America Cruise ... you'll find appropriate praise where the Line succeeded in providing a wonderful experience, and likewise appropriate, reasoned, AND highly critical remarks when and where I felt the Line failed to perform up to its own standard of excellence. My criticism always attempted to be constructive, however it was also (in my opinion) honest and rooted in my personal experience. One of the things which annoyed folks like me was that those critical remarks were rarely acknowledged by those who labeled us "unabashed shills" -- only our expressed love for the HAL experienced was noted, and attacked, by those who had less-than-agreeable experiences.

As for a "change" in opinion ... you give yourself FAR too much credit. It's just that, for whatever reason, you're now seeing the criticisms of the HAL loyalists. Perhaps it's because the criticisms have risen in volume and frequency as financial problems (and growing pains) within the Line have caused cut-backs and a growing number accompanying problems. Even those who were the loudest with their praise -- and the least tolerate of unbridled (and perceived unfair) criticism -- nevertheless were known to express critical observations on the HAL product along with their praise. Those same people do the same thing today -- they just have a few more criticisms. Take myself as an example. In 2002 I was willing to both praise HAL when they did well, AND issue criticisms that, at times, were rather hard and pointed, when they didn't do so good. At that time I wasn't even a volunteer Protestant Chaplain with the Line; today I am, and I still offer praise where praise is due, and criticism where they've got it coming. Read my review of my Alaska cruise from 2003 for an example of this.

In short, the more things change the more they stay the same. :D

[rkacruiser]

One of the reasons I decided to start the thread concerning possible problems with visa approvals for the crew was due to this negativity I was reading in many posts. I was hoping to offer a reasonable excuse as to why there may have been perceived staff reductions that had nothing to do with financial considerations. I was also hoping to get some really definite data as to whether staff had been reduced on purpose or not. While some interesting data was generated by some posters, one could still not really determine what the Home Office was thinking.

As I said in the prior thread, I see no point in spending the money that is being spent on "Signatures of Excellence" for the Company to cut their main asset--the crew--on purpose. I still think any staffing problems are due to visa approval difficulties.

[ryansmemom]

"Since I was the one that started the thread asking for opinions on "shorts in the dining room" I am going to comment again.

The thread was not started to "stir the pot" or to "have fun". The normal "dress code" threads were always about dinner. Mine was about breakfast and lunch and based on an incident that took place on one cruise on the Statendam."-Gizmo

Hi everyone,

I just want to clarify my previous post. I did not intend to imply that anyone who starts a thread or discusses a subject that is controversal does so with the intention of "stirring the pot" or "having fun". I think that these subjects, dress codes, changes in policy, just to name two are all of great interest to most of us and are very important topics of discussions. We all appreciate hearing about the experiencesof others regarding these issues.

Gizmo, I remember your thread. You related your experience and provided excellent information for the rest of us to discuss. You certainly bear no responsibility for what others choose to do with the information you presented. When I wrote my post, I did so without any particular person in mind. It was a general observation. I apologize if I caused you any distress.

With that in mind, I would like to reiterate, we do need to discuss controversal issues. We all want to be able to relate our experiences and opinions. The difficulty is when the tone of the discussion becomes dreadfully negative and at times it can feel as though the discussion is spirling down an emotional black hole.

Unfortunatly, there are people who enjoy this sort of thing and just like to stir the pot. Web speak for them is "troll.

My friends, just be on the lookout for, universals, "whatever it is is defintily gone forever"; hyperbole, "I just had the worst cruise anyone could imagine";
gross exageration, "there was not one lettuce leaf on the entire ship". People are entitled to their opinions, based on their experiences, but they do have to be credible.

Negatvity is the one of more distructive forces in our society. It destroys joy and happiness. It makes you miserable.

I say, let's all toast to life. Especially life at sea. I wish you all life, love, health and many happy sea voyages.

Linda

[superstein61]

RevNeal


superstein61,

It's always amazing to see how different people will perceive the same things in different ways. One side thought that the "HAL Haters" were vicious, mean, and delighted in launching unwarranted lies and personal attacks, while the other side thought that the "HAL shills" could see no wrong with their favorite Cruise Line while bashing and demeaning those who voiced dissent. My own memory and opinion of those days is that EACH SIDE gave about as good as they got, and neither side appreciated the stereotyping, name-calling, and broad-brush tactics of the other.

True, it is amazing to see how different people will perceive the same things in different ways. You are probably correct in that each side gave as good as it got - however, IMO, the number of "shills" far outnumbered the number of "Haters" back then.



Personally, I never thought of myself as a "shill" for the Line (I was loyal to my cruise line of choice, but not blindly-so). Read my first review of a Holland America Cruise ... you'll find appropriate praise where the Line succeeded in providing a wonderful experience, and likewise appropriate, reasoned, AND highly critical remarks when and where I felt the Line failed to perform up to its own standard of excellence. My criticism always attempted to be constructive, however it was also (in my opinion) honest and rooted in my personal experience. One of the things which annoyed folks like me was that those critical remarks were rarely acknowledged by those who labeled us "unabashed shills" -- only our expressed love for the HAL experienced was noted, and attacked, by those who had less-than-agreeable experiences.

Well I think shill and hater are both too strong of descriptions. I would use "Defender" in place of shill and "objective" in place of Hater. While you were not the unabashed "defender" some folks here were (and I will not name names as that is not my intent), I do remember your vociferous defense of HAL on many occasions when HAL was IMO wrong



As for a "change" in opinion ... you give yourself FAR too much credit. It's just that, for whatever reason, you're now seeing the criticisms of the HAL loyalists. Perhaps it's because the criticisms have risen in volume and frequency as financial problems (and growing pains) within the Line have caused cut-backs and a growing number accompanying problems. Even those who were the loudest with their praise -- and the least tolerate of unbridled (and perceived unfair) criticism -- nevertheless were known to express critical observations on the HAL product along with their praise. Those same people do the same thing today -- they just have a few more criticisms. Take myself as an example. In 2002 I was willing to both praise HAL when they did well, AND issue criticisms that, at times, were rather hard and pointed, when they didn't do so good. At that time I wasn't even a volunteer Protestant Chaplain with the Line; today I am, and I still offer praise where praise is due, and criticism where they've got it coming. Read my review of my Alaska cruise from 2003 for an example of this.



I don't think I do give myself more credit than I deserve. I always took a balanced approach at things and would argue as such. But too many folks simply saw HAL thru rose colored glasses. As I say now, I said then - no cruise line nor company is perfect. Lets hear both the good and the bad - and don't criticize those who post something negative. People who never complained about HAL a few years ago are now complaining. I think they have seen the light. Others (perhaps yourself) who maybe complained once in a while now have increased the number of criticisms due to changes you do not like. Nothing wrong with that - in fact, I applaud it.

Folks should feel free to post both the good and the bad about HAL and any cruise line - and should feel free to do so without being told they are wrong, etc by someone who had a different experience. Everyone's experiences are different - people should share them - GOOD and BAD

[ryansmemom]

Folks should feel free to post both the good and the bad about HAL and any cruise line - and should feel free to do so without being told they are wrong, etc by someone who had a different experience. Everyone's experiences are different - people should share them - GOOD and BAD


I absolultly agree with this statement. Unfortunatly, the climate on this board can become very nasty. People become very defensive when verbal tactics like those I mentioned before are used.

Linda

[superstein61]

"My friends, just be on the lookout for, universals, "whatever it is is defintily gone forever"; hyperbole, "I just had the worst cruise anyone could imagine";
gross exageration, "there was not one lettuce leaf on the entire ship". People are entitled to their opinions, based on their experiences, but they do have to be credible.


Linda

And just who determines whether someone is credible or not? Maybe someone did have "the worst cruise anyone could imagine". We do not know. Each reader should decide the credebility of a person's opinion.

Here is an interesting story. On another board that shall remain nameless - a bunch of addicts of cruising took a person to task who started a thread that said HAL was untrustworthy. The person explained their situation and IMO and that of some others, came across as very credible. however, two Board regulars there disagreed and took this person to task becuase they only posted once and did not come back to "defend" their experience. Thats ridiculous - no one needs to defend what they personally experienced. People can read and decide whether to believe them or not. But defend it? Anyway, I stuck up for the original poster and after having debated these two cruise addicted board regulars, and debunked their arguments handily, the thread disappeared. I was told by a moderator it was because it became unproductive.

What a joke. It remained civil at all times - no one, not even the moderator disputed that - but because a couple board regulars were badly beaten in their arguments, they asked for the thread to disappear. That is a very poor way to run a message board and discourages others from presenting dissenting opinions. No wonder the original poster didn't want to stick around and "defend" their experience.

Needless to say, I no longer frequent that message board.

Anyway, my point is - people should post their experience's, good and bad, and each reader can make their own attempt at discerning how much wieght to give to that person. No need for anyone here to get nasty with someone who's view you disagree with. just read it, feel free to disagree in a civil manner if need be and move on. It makes for a better time for all involved IMO

I like to take in the overall body of evidience - just throwing out what are IMO are the extremes on either end

[gizmo]

Ryansmom,

No need to apologize, you did not cause me any distress.

I do agree there is a troll or two that pops in and out of this board. I found if you ignore them and don't respond to their comments they usually go away.

Interesting you brought up " I had the worst cruise" and "there was not one leaf of lettuce on the entire ship". :)
Many times these people are nut cases and they do post just to stir the pot. I have read many of them. But, I just read a thread that went 5 pages. The person had a bad cruise, probably did not understand things about the cruise line and how things worked, and complained about the food. Seems like they had some unusal choices, goat meat and chicken liver. The thread started out ok, but eventually got to bashing, mostly over the goat meat. Finally another person posted and said they did have goat meat on that cruise.

:D Can I substitue lettuce for limes? :D No sarcasim intended.
It just reminded me of my last cruise when not a lime was to be found (for my vodka gimlets) on the entire ship. The problem was handled by a tour guide in Costa Rica. He pointed out a lime tree and I mentioned the ship was out of them. He stopped at a friends house and picked me fresh limes right off the tree.

[ryansmemom]

[QUOTE=superstein61]


I don't think I do give myself more credit than I deserve. I always took a balanced approach at things and would argue as such. But too many folks simply saw HAL thru rose colored glasses.


Superstein,

As a psychologist I am usually an advocate of the necessity of seeing things realistically and encourage people to do so. However, in this instance, a vacation, would you please help me understand what the problem is with people seeing HAL thru rose colored glasses? Frankly, I don't see where it harms anyone. And I can see where it can enhance someone's cruise. Why not just let them be?

Linda

[superstein61]

[QUOTE=superstein61]


I don't think I do give myself more credit than I deserve. I always took a balanced approach at things and would argue as such. But too many folks simply saw HAL thru rose colored glasses.


Superstein,

As a psychologist I am usually an advocate of the necessity of seeing things realistically and encourage people to do so. However, in this instance, a vacation, would you please help me understand what the problem is with people seeing HAL thru rose colored glasses? Frankly, I don't see where it harms anyone. And I can see where it can enhance someone's cruise. Why not just let them be?

Linda

Linda

No harm in it to them at all. But I do think it does harm others who may be new to HAL (or insert any cruise line as I am sure this applies to any board here) and are looking for objective opinions.

IMO, each line has its good and bad points - and someone coming here for advice should hear that. If all they hear is the rose colored glasses viewpoint, I think they have been done a disservice. Just my opinion.

Thanks

[MortgageBabe]

I am not going to say that HAL is the best cruiseline. What I will tell you is that in the last 5 years of crusing we have not found better service or food. We will try Celebrity in Feb 05 and maybe in Sept 05 as well. If we feel it is better then we will say so.

Of course this is very subjective and only based on other experiences. I would not expect eveyone to agree with me, however we have a somewhat broad base of experience, though no where near that of others on this board. We are willing to try something different on a regular basis.

Oceanbreeze -October 1995-5 night W. Caribbean
Destiny -May 1999-7 night Eastern Caribbean
NCL Majesty- August 2000 -7 night Bermuda
NCL Sun-November 2001-13 night Repo Boston to MIA
Carnival Paradise-May 2002- 10 nights S Caribbean
Carnival Legend-Sept 2002-15 night Transatlantic Crossing
Royal Olympia Voyager-Feb 2003-15 night Amazon River
Rotterdam- June 2003-7 night Canada-New England
Enchantment of the Seas-Sept 1 2003-5 nights Cozumel and Belize

Costa Mediterranea- December 14 2003 NEVER AGAIN!!!!
Oosterdam-March 14th 2004- 7 nights Eastern Caribbean

Westerdam Nov 12 2004- 17 nights Barcelona to Fort Lauderdale

Mercury Feb 7 2005- 11 nights Mexican Riviera

[Joedog]

Did I miss something? I thought the question was why is there more negative posts than positive posts, not who asked what or who was a shill for HAL.

My personal opinion is, people are more prone to complain than to praise.

A small inconvenience turns into a major issue while small "good" things get taken for granted and don't get mentioned.

This reminds me of a joke about a child that never talked. Everyone thought he was mute until one morning when he was 10 he took a bite of oatmeal and said...."this is cold". Everyone was amazed that, after all the years of not talking and being thought mute, he could really talk. Then his mother asked him "how come you never talked before" and he said "up until this morning everything has been okay".

Anyone who thinks that people dont tend to complain more than praise have never had a mother-in-law.

[digby]

I can't understand why you let it bother you? It's ONLY a mesage board. No one FORCES us to post or read other's postings!

[jhannah]

I'm in New Orleans at a human resources conference and had the honor today of hearing Queen Noor of Jordan speak. One of the things she said made me think of this thread. She said there are those who learn to listen and help contribute to understanding, just as there are those who only want to cause polarization and argument (or something to that effect.) How true!

[RevNeal]

You are probably correct in that each side gave as good as it got - however, IMO, the number of "shills" far outnumbered the number of "Haters" back then.

You may well be correct about that. There may, indeed, have been more "shills" than "Haters," but the "Haters" made it so uncomfortable for me that I actually quit reading or posting on the board for at least 6 months. I can remember the verbal and emotional attacks that were hurled at me back then, all because I was perceived as being a "shill" for the line while daring to stand up in defense of another "HAL shill." In other words, it didn't take a great many "HAL Haters" to ruin the excitement and the joy of discussing cruising on these boards. It was ruined for me for about half a year, and so I quit. I had more important things to do.

Well I think shill and hater are both too strong of descriptions. I would use "Defender" in place of shill and "objective" in place of Hater.

Both actually reflect the emotional content of much of the debate back then, and the term "shill" was used of me, DIRECTLY, when it was mentioned that I had applied to be a Line Chaplain. Are these hard terms? Yes. But they're truthful in reflecting the character of those exchanges.

As for the term "objective" ... doesn't that entirely depend upon the point of view of the people involved? Indeed, most of what we say here tends to be HIGHLY subjective. One's so-called "objective" opinion is HIGHLY "subjective" relative to another's opinion. We're talking OPINION and EXPERIENCE, here ... hardly something that is open to "objective" analysis.

While you were not the unabashed "defender" some folks here were (and I will not name names as that is not my intent), I do remember your vociferous defense of HAL on many occasions when HAL was IMO wrong.

And, there you have it ... "IMO." What makes you, or anyone (myself included) think that our opinions are objective? Remember ... like rear ends everyone has them, and they are NOT always going to agree (they usually don't), and just because it happens to be your opinion (or mine) doesn't make it "objective" anymore than my opinion regarding the taste of a T-bone steak or the quality of the trio in the Explorer's Lounge is objective.

I don't think I do give myself more credit than I deserve. I always took a balanced approach at things and would argue as such.

And that is your opinion, just as mine was. I don't agree with yours, and you don't agree with mine. And that's OK.

But too many folks simply saw HAL thru rose colored glasses.

The above statement is entirely subjective. How many is too many? How "rosy" do the glasses have to be before their being "rosy" becomes a detriment? Who gets to determine the factor by which that is judged? What does it matter if such is the case? In short ... you kinda sound like a cruise-excitement-kill-joy when you make statements like the above. One can see HAL "thru rose colored glasses" and still see a mess, and criticize it, and yet still prefer the line over others. What skin is it off your nose if such is the case?

As I say now, I said then - no cruise line nor company is perfect. Lets hear both the good and the bad - and don't criticize those who post something negative.

I agree completely. And, while we're at it, please don't criticize those who post something positive. You may not like to be reminded of it, or may not even remember it or believe it to be true, but that happened FAR too often from some of those whom you think of as being "objective." (Many were actually just trolls).

People who never complained about HAL a few years ago are now complaining.

As I said in my prior post on this subject, that charge simply is NOT true. Even the most rose-colored-glasses-wearing HAL Defender on the board at the time was known to issue occasional criticisms when HAL messed up ... yes, EVEN THEN. As I wrote earlier, those criticisms were ignored by those on the other side ... as you are ignoring them now.

I think they have seen the light. Others (perhaps yourself) who maybe complained once in a while now have increased the number of criticisms due to changes you do not like. Nothing wrong with that - in fact, I applaud it.

You applaud complaints? Step back and look at that statement from a different perspective for just a moment. Here is how what you said above sounds to some of us: you are applauding that we're upset that the quality of the Line is declining. I'm sorry, but that's just sad. You assume that we didn't complain before because he loved the line, but we DID. And now that you see us complaining, you're applauding. I'm sorry ... but I'm not applauding that we're having to complain and we're unhappy. It makes me sick to see a product I've loved for over 10 years hit some rough seas. As I was critical in the past, I'm critical now ... when it's call for, I issue criticism. But having to do so is not something I applaud.

Folks should feel free to post both the good and the bad about HAL and any cruise line - and should feel free to do so without being told they are wrong, etc by someone who had a different experience. Everyone's experiences are different - people should share them - GOOD and BAD.

Even, I trust, when their experience and opinion differs from yours? Good. I agree. :D

[GAndie]

Someone here mentioned "trolls". Who are considered trolls and why should anyone be ignored by "regulars" on these boards?

Are these boards for EVERYONE, for people who don't disagree, is there a clique that one is supposed to belong to, is there some kind of test someone has to pass before being welcomed by the "regulars" on the boards?

I don't understand. Of course, if this is ignored, some questions will be answered! ;-)

[marktac]

For reasons known only to the few, the HAL board seems to have a unique hold on this problem. It is amazing to see the difference in the tone of the other lines' boards...they are far more friendly.

GAndie mentions the "regulars." It has been my personal observation that a couple of them may be at the root of the problem. Anything that speaks ill of the HAL line brings about swift retribution. There is even talk of this being "their" board.

And, it's a shame, because my one experience on a HAL ship was a good one, but had I listened to the flamers before we cruised, we never would have been on the Zuiderdam.

I still lurk here, but my posting is few and far between. It's not worth it to run the gauntlet.

MarkT

[gizmo]

Someone here mentioned "trolls". Who are considered trolls and why should anyone be ignored by "regulars" on these boards?

Are these boards for EVERYONE, for people who don't disagree, is there a clique that one is supposed to belong to, is there some kind of test someone has to pass before being welcomed by the "regulars" on the boards?

I don't understand. Of course, if this is ignored, some questions will be answered! ;-)
Trolls are nasty critters. They go from site to site and attempt to stir up trouble. They post topics that they know will stir up trouble and get a rise out of people. They will post nasty things just to get people upset. Many times they are personal attacks. They then sit back and watch everyone get upset, get their feelings hurt etc. They take great pleasure in doing this.
When a troll posts something nasty they are hoping to get responses. If you ignore them they usually go away and try somewhere else. Trolls have been kicked off the CC boards in the past.

I did not say "regulars" should ignore trolls. Everyone should, but it is easier to spot one if you read the board on a regular basis.

Is there a clique? Every board on the internet has regular posters. I guess you can call this a clique.

I am not sure what you mean by welcomed. Everyone is welcome to post.

[WolfpackFan]

Can someone please tell me why unbased negative critiques on this board seem to outweigh any of the positive actual experiences?
It is happening on all the cruise boards I frequent including Princess and NCL. To read all the various postings everybody sailing on cruises these days are having terrible cruises. I know I read terrible reviews about the Diamond Princess before we sailed on her threee weeks ago; but it was the best cruise we've ever been on.

[superstein61]

GAndie mentions the "regulars." It has been my personal observation that a couple of them may be at the root of the problem. Anything that speaks ill of the HAL line brings about swift retribution. There is even talk of this being "their" board.

And, it's a shame,

MarkT

I agree Mark. I left this board a couple years ago becuase some of the "regulars" were so bad in their defense of anything HAL that it was ridiculous. It just caused more problems than it was worth.

I prefer balanced views. I sailed on HAL once and enjoyed it - but was it perfect, no. Doesn't mean I won't sail on HAL again - in fact, I am later this month - but it means I can be objective and look at the good and the bad. In the past, many "regulars" could not - but most have changed. However, unfortunately a few are still HAL can do no wrongers - but oh well, they offset the rabble rousers from the other side now.

And quite frankly, when you talk about cliques - this board has nothing on the one where folks are addicted to cruising. I took on a couple regulars there who are part of "the club" , beat them badly in a lengthy but completely civil debate, and they had one of their buddies resort to removing the thread becuase it was no longer "interesting". Thats a clique !!!!!

[xpcdoojk]

I am a relative new reader of the HAL board here at CC, but I have been on CC in one form or another since before the year 2000. I have mostly posted in the RCI forum because I have taken more RCI cruises than other lines. I have been called a shill for RCI. Yet I actively seek out new adventures and horizons. I prefer to call Tr**ls the creatures that live under the bridge. The creatures are exactly as discussed earlier in this thread. They inhabit all internet forums that I have participated in, and they are nasty folks, with too much time on their hands, and not enough originality to be creative. Any forum has long time active members will seem like a clique to new posters. Generally, if you hang around awhile you will begin to understand their group dynamics, just don't expect them to respond to you in exactly the same way they respond to someone they have communicated with for years in this forum. They have a history with each other that you can't know, and that is the good and bad of being a long time poster.

My experiences are that the new people visiting a forum bring life to it, but are often guilty of bringing up dead horse topics that have been beaten to death. Therefore, don't be sensitive when they respond strangely because you don't know the history of the topic you are bringing up.

JMHO

jc

[heartofamerica]

Are that some have a tendency to blow things up to appear way worse than they were. For example, I have seen some reviews that had something like "Embarkation was a breeze, but then the nightmare began...our luggage did not make it to are stateroom until 5:00 p.m.". Well, considering that first seating at dinner isn't until 6:15, how could this be a "nightmare"? Inconvenient, maybe, but my idea of a "nightmare" on a cruise ship is hitting and iceberg and sinking. I've only been on two cruises - I think though that I am pretty good at looking at what was done well, and what has some room for improvement. For example, on our Zuiderdam cruise, I was in the second early seating, and the "Baked Alaska Parade" was timed to better fit the first seating passengers. I had a juicy steak and delicious lobster just begging for me to eat them, then the lights dimmed, the parade began, and EVERYBODY was encouraged to clap. As my dinner gets cold, but the folks upstairs were eager for their dessert. Could have been a lot better, but hardly enough to "ruin" a cruise.

At the end, I look back at what was good, what was bad, and then weigh which column had more entries in it. And though I've only been on two cruises (HAL and Celebrity), the list of "good" in both cases is considerably longer than the "could be improved" list. I feel kind of sorry for the folks who let something negative ruin the entire cruise.

[GAndie]

Don't you think that many times people genuinely post to ask questions because they've never cruised before and then get a little disheartened when someone who may have been posting for years comes back and responds in a way that's condescending, rude and invites negative posts in response?

As far as "trolls" or what some perceive as "trolls" getting kicked off the boards, that doesn't happen very often and I don't think people should be kicked off public boards because they disagree or express themselves in a way that some people aren't accustomed to.

[xpcdoojk]

GAndie, in that you are very wrong. This forum has a huge number of members and unfortunately, there is rarely a day that goes by that someone doesn't get kicked off the forum. It is not a rare event to have creature under the bridge posts. I wish you were correct. Yes, it is a shame when a genuine noob posts a question and gets accussed and slammed, but a little maturity is a big plus when it comes to dealing with internet forums. Don't take it personal when someone vehemently disagrees with you. You don't know most of the people so why let it bother you. This is not a public forum, it is a private web site. It is generating revenue and it is a private business. They are spending their own money not yours to run and operate this site and they have the right to operate how they see fit.

Here is an example of why you don't have all of your free speech rights in this forum. Think of this forum as a private home. You invite me over to dinner and I start exercising my free speech rights. First I call you names then I get to your mother and father expressing my opinion on their mistake in creating you. Do you have the legitimate right to ask me to leave? Of course. No free speech is violated by your doing so because I don't have the right to free speech in a private place. This is not the public assembly hall.

jc

[Host Walt]

Don't you think that many times people genuinely post to ask questions because they've never cruised before and then get a little disheartened when someone who may have been posting for years comes back and responds in a way that's condescending, rude and invites negative posts in response?

As far as "trolls" or what some perceive as "trolls" getting kicked off the boards, that doesn't happen very often and I don't think people should be kicked off public boards because they disagree or express themselves in a way that some people aren't accustomed to.
You're now raising the real issue, a practical one that will be with us always.

Many (most?) who have posted on this thread have been on the HAL boards for months and years.

Along comes John Doe. Just put a deposit on his first cruise, let's say the Statendam. He's jazzed. His wife is jazzed. Just 4 more months.

John goes on Google and types in Holland America Line and among other sites, up pops Cruise Critic! he goes in and finds the HAL Board and starts surfing through it. He sees some interesting stuff so, he says, "I like this. I can learn something."

So John posts a question.

And that's where the problem arises. A frequent participant (A) posts a reply that scolds John for not using the search feature; that he answered that question only two months ago. Then another (B) comes back with a reply to A that restarts a discussion that died with the older thread. Then another (C) tells A & B that she's tired of the dispute.

Meanwhile, hapless John Doe, who's just trying to learn about his new adventure, decides that he may have made a mistake booking a HAL cruise; if all HAL cruisers are like these people on the HAL Board, perhaps he should have chosen a resort vacation instead.

(The foregoing is a pattern that I've seen repeated frequently on this and other cruise boards.)

Our Community Guidelines start with this paragraph:

Cruise Critic is a community of folks who love to cruise and we all benefit from the exchange of advice that takes place particularly here! Our Cruise Board is a cooperative effort which depend on all of you to make it work well. If you post questions, please try to take the time to answer other members' questions as well.

If everyone could simply try this approach:

Ready - (read the post and understand the question, [issue, subject] from the poster's point of view)
Aim - (click the "preview post" button and think about your answer. Is it responsive to the starter post and does it help the discussion?)
Fire - (click the "Submit Post" button.)

Way too often we see a variation of that approach; I call it the Ready-Fire-Aim approach. That's what starts the heat...when a reply is not thought through before clicking "Submit."

If we all can remember that we once were all newbies like John Doe and were excited and apprehensive about our first cruises too, then respond helpfully and kindly. Then when a seasoned veteran cruiser posts something discussing his/her experiences (good or bad) on a recent trip, think about John Doe as well as yourself and engage in a discussion rather than a debate about the post.

Thanks.

[GAndie]

Thanks Walt, and I agree with you. NO ONE likes to get slammed and ganged up on by the "regulars" who have years of sailing under their belts.

In addition to that, there are people who HAVE sailed for many years, maybe not on HAL and maybe have not been on the boards before, but they sometimes get treated as though they are interlopers, ignorant, and really not welcomed here. Those people get defensive and lash back.

[gizmo]

As far as "trolls" or what some perceive as "trolls" getting kicked off the boards, that doesn't happen very often and I don't think people should be kicked off public boards because they disagree or express themselves in a way that some people aren't accustomed to.
I guess you did not understand my explaination of trolls. People do not not get kicked off boards because they disagree or express theselves in a way that some aren't accustom to nor does this describe a troll.

[lknick]

Few would seriously object to reports of “less than perfect” cruise experiences. Those who do are similar to those who gathered around Indiana Jones at the Berlin bonfire.

Few object to others holding differing opinions.

But I object to the majority of posts neither having to do with cruising nor providing answers to cruising questions but are to either promote a personal agenda, to personalize responses or misstate facts.

Unfortunately, some simply do not understand that the objective of Cruise Critics is to share information and not to just flap our tails.

And that’s why we’re supposed to have referees…called here “hosts.”

[GAndie]

I would agree, but isn't the name of this message board called "CRUISE CRITICS"? :confused:

[lknick]

Yes, Cruise Critrics...but not 'stop the world, I want to get off."

Criticism, like all freedoms, comes with responsibility.

[Joedog]

Actually just because this forum is called Cruise "Critic" doesnt mean we have to all be negative. The primary definition of "critic" is:

1 a : one who expresses a reasoned opinion on any matter especially involving a judgment of its value, truth, righteousness, beauty, or technique

I do believe that a "reasoned opinion" can be positive also. At least that's my reasoned opinion....and I''m sticking to it.

[RevNeal]

I would agree, but isn't the name of this message board called "CRUISE CRITICS"?

Websters provides the following definition of "critic"

Pronunciation: 'kri-tik
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin criticus, from Greek kritikos, from kritikos able to discern or judge, from krinein
Date: 1588
1 a : one who expresses a reasoned opinion on any matter especially involving a judgment of its value, truth, righteousness, beauty, or technique b : one who engages often professionally in the analysis, evaluation, or appreciation of works of art or artistic performances
2 : one given to harsh or captious judgment

I would venture to suggest that it's the first definition (a & b), not the second, which is intended here. Sadly, some people ("trolls" especially) love to engage in the second definition -- be they pro OR con the Line in question is beside the point, they are harsh and captious in their post.

In case someone doesn't know the meaning of the word "captious" (it's not one I use regularly), it is defined as:

1 : marked by an often ill-natured inclination to stress faults and raise objections
2 : calculated to confuse, entrap, or entangle in argument

Some who are not trolls are a bit more predisposed to look for, and stress, faults and objections without ever noting positives. Trolls, however, are best typified by the second definition ... their posts are "calculated to confuse, entrap, or entangle in argument." And they're good at it, too.

Our average, every day newby is NOT a troll. That those of us who have been around for a while sometimes don't respond to newby questions as helpfully as we might is unfortunate, but ... then ... I object to the broad-brush characterization that such is the response that newby posters receive. :) Sorry ... I don't intend to be contentious or argumentative, just stating a personal opinion. :)

[GAndie]

I don't know about anyone else, but I mostly see postive posts here, good reviews and pleasant discourse. I think it might be the negative comments that receive most of the attention. Something like our evening news!

EVERYBODY has a bad day once in awhile and I think patience is a virtue, personalities are different, and EVERYONE has something to offer whether it be negative or positive.

...and EVERYONE needs to cruise more often or pretend we ARE on a cruise if we can't actually be on one! :)

[RevNeal]

I don't know about anyone else, but I mostly see postive posts here, good reviews and pleasant discourse.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!
Capital!
You will have a gold star on your report card! :D

[Host Walt]

I commend to your reading this article: Definition of an Internet Troll (http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT). If it looks familiar I posted it last year when the subject got escalated.

[GAndie]

Thanks Walt, I read it and I agree with most of it. There's one thing about it though that bothers me and that is that I've seen many people on many message boards, boards that are for social discourse, not hot topic'd political boards or other boards that are on AOL that are created to invite controversy, but I've seen seemingly decent people sometimes behaving like trolls who just because they've been around for awhile don't get treated as trolls.

There are a couple of characters on the boards (cruising boards) who seem to have a good reputation with other regular posters but they insult, patronize and make many people feel uncomfortable.

The other regulars on the boards just give them the slide and laugh about it and don't chastise the person doing it.
Afterall, "...he's been around and posted with them for a long time and well, you just have to get to know him....."

This does invite a defensive rebuttal and not always kind, from the person this is directed to. Next thing ya know...a board degenerates, feelings are hurt and the only people left to post are the regulars who have this idea that they belong to a private club and if you don't "smell" like one of them in the beginning, you won't be welcome no matter how polite you are.

These are my personal observations as I've been reading these boards for years and have been posting and responding for years.

[Sailure]

Don't worry about it Gandie. This board belongs to everybody not just the regulars;)

[ryansmemom]

Check out the thread "beating the bar tab" we've been having a civil discussion over there for a couple of days now. We've even got some newbies sharing their thoughts. It's really nice, the water is not hot, though. It's not for people who crave excitement, but is is interesting.

I think the people who are participating like it, I know I do.

Linda

[Thoth]

Don't most of you think that these flamers and other negative voices are more indicative of computer message boards than cruise travelers.? In other words it's a internet thing!?
I have been on 4 going on 5 cruises and just don't meet many crybabies on these ships. The happy seems to greatly overwhelm the disgruntled.
For example some Internet posters claim that the White Pass Railroad in Skagway Alaska is boring. NOBODY that I spoke with on the train last year would use the word "boring". Also I have read those who describe the food on HAL as "bland" . Some cruise line's food might be better than others, however relatively speaking cruise food is hardly "bland".
My point I suppose is that we cannot take what people post over the internet as indicative of our expectations.

[ryansmemom]

I think that we are bombarded, in our daily lives, with negative images. In the media, in our workplaces, in our schools. Americans are becoming conflict junkies. Just look at the TV schedule of "Reality TV" shows. Does anyone really beleive this is reality? Check out the nightly news, if you can stomach it. Violence and conflict and negativity abound.

I think that, for many people, negativity feels more real. It seems more in sinc with what they are being told the real world is like and the filters are up. Also, for some folks, it's exciting. It rasies their heart rate and it seems more interesting.

Message board give people the illusion of anoynomity and privacy. They forget they are being monitered. They forget their is a record of what they are writing. They forget this is as private as a cell phone conversation. But some people think that is private, too.

Personally, I find real dialougue far more interesting and exciting. I am more interested in hearing what people really have to contribute than quick, snappy retorts. I think; I might be wrong here; that people interested in learning about cruising are interested in that, too.

We are here to help each other, not just to show how clever we are. Yeah we can do that as well. We who have been on cruises, also bear the responsibilty to newcomers to present a balanced report of our experience.

It really concerned me when people, on the old board, were writing that they were considering cancelling their cruise becuase of what they read on this board.

I will now step down from my soap box.
No flames please.
Linda

[HeatherInFlorida]

I have to be so careful how I write this. I started reading and posting a year or so ago. I was at the Celebrity site because we were going on the Millie. More recently I've been on the HAL boards because in November we'll cruise for the 2nd time on HAL. Well, we were on the Wind Song in Tahiti, but that doesn't count as HAL, I guess.

I have to say that throughout this experience I have noticed the "regulars" and they have often made me feel that I'm not really a part of the group. I really try to post nicely because I know how the written word can be misconstrued. Yet some were really, really cutting. The last time I suffered hurt feelings I just retreated for awhile but I've decided not to let it bother me. When someone jabs at me, I just get out of the thread.

I do want to say that I think it was Gizmo that made me realize I simply can't take it personally. I don't know anything about Gizmo, but this person (he?she?) has always been fair and kind when others were not. So thank you, Gizmo.

There is no question in my mind that I've been ignored by certain individuals. Sometimes it's as if I haven't posted at all. It hurts, it's kind of like not being part of a conversation. But what the heck? I decided to plow on because I love this site and I've learned a lot from it.

[jhannah]

Linda, you are right on target. Sad thing is, most of those folks think it IS reality. Too many years of soap operas. (Sorry fans, but I was in the TV business for a number of years and couldn't believe how many people get so into it that they can no longer distinguish between real people and actors portraying characters. OT, I know. Sorry.

Anyhoo, hang in Heather. You're absolutely right in letting hurtful things roll off like water on a duck's back. There will always be vitriolic and mean-spirited people, and those who just lack the ability to weigh their words before spitting them out.

[Sailure]

Of course there will always be mean spirited people, that's life. Some people think and convey the message that if someone is unhappy about something and they express it that it's "flaming".

For those that think the "regulars" are a part of the problem, my suggestion is to stay on the boards, express your opinons even if they are the opposite of die-hard --------(fill in the blank of the cruiseline) defenders and there will be a balanced view from everyone.

Some people have truly had bad experiences, even ONE and they paid so very much for the experience that they want to let others know about it. I don't blame them and it's their right to express themselves.

One person's "flamer" could be another person's "savior".

But as the "regulars" say, when they're the ones doing the flaming on a "newbie" poster, "don't take it personally." Even though a moderator put up an article that says people DO take it personally.;)

[ryansmemom]

Hi Heather

I can understand how you feel. I have felt slammed myself and have said many times, "don't flame me" and "I feel like I'm walking on eggshells". That's why I decided to try to do something about it. I have been more active on this board over the past few days than I have ever been. I have been trying to encourage people to be civil and be positive and share their thoughts.

I think, it can work. Over at the "beat the bar bill" thread there has been a very good conversation going. People are working hard to keep it civil and although it's not perfect, it's really good.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything. I just think, if the people who want to keep this board positive and civil can do it if we don't react to the trolls and negative people. We have to stand up and say stop.

On this thread, "beat the bar tab" new people are coming out and sharing their ideas and experiences. Also, people are apologizing if they hurt someone's feelings.

Check it out :) Who knows, maybe we can talk about "Formal Night" ;)

[fb0075]

You should hang around the Princess board--4-5 people "RAN" the board and ANY negative comment was immiediatly "LAMBASTED"--not the comment but the POSTER--
After the board switch, they have calmed down as some of us got FED UP and THE CREW TURNED ON THE CAPTAINS!!
Noticed the other day that 1 person especially is starting his old ways! Amazing that this is their WHOLE WORLD--they are on the board 16 hrs a day and talk between each other all the time--a mutual admiration society---
What everyone NEEDS to remember is that EVERYONE has a right to their "OPINION"==How can any intelligent person attack 1 persons OPINION?
OH WELL < TO PEACEFUL HERE> LETS LOOK BACK OVER THERE!!
FRANK

[HeatherInFlorida]

Frank, yes that's exactly what I saw. I wish I could remember the timing of it. Or even if it was the HAL boards. But there were a bunch of "guys" (I could just tell) on a thread that I innocently happened into. It was 100% negative and they all knew each other. Then lil ole me pops up with something positive and they were all over me! I actually felt physically bludgeoned. It was clear these guys were "at work" (heaven help their employers) and they sit and post on here all day. I never saw them on weekends.

I know there's good and bad about every cruiseline. I'm just partial to Celebrity and Holland America. I know they've made changes and some of them appear to be bad ones, but with time I feel they'll get it worked out. Some people believe that HAL is literally "out to get" them and this simply makes no sense.

Just to stay on track, I've always seen the glass half full. I like to read the negatives as well as the positives, but I have to say I listen more when it's not 100% negative. The fact is there are some people you can't please no matter how hard you try;) . I still believe that just being out there on the high seas with the wind at my back is better than no cruise at all:) .

[gizmo]

Heather,

You are welcome, and thank you for the nice compliment.
Gizmo is a she. :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

Gizmo, I should have known :)

[uncialman]

I have always tried to be as objective and gracious in my review of what I thought of a cruise experience but realize that it is still just my opinion. My first 3 cruises on HAL were magnificient and the last was a bit below my expectations. I realize that some on the board did not like the criticism but if they would realize that my comments were made out of a love and concern for the HAL product, they might soften their harsh word.

My wife and I truly love the HAL product and prey that the suits don't go and mess up the entire product. I really hope that the Zuiderdam was an anomally and that the rest of the fleet will carry the HAL tradition.

uncialman

[Sailure]

Fortunately there are lots of good cruiselines out there. ALL of them have a bad thing happen at one time or another and nothing is ever perfect all the time.

I think it's great that we hear the pros and cons of everything. I also know that just because a few people have had bad experiences that that doesn't mean you, or I will. Every once in awhile the stars and the planets have to line up just perfectly for something to hit the skids or soar the skies!

[uncialman]

Sailure,

Don't get me wrong here (I am not personally directing this to you) but the thing that irritates me the most, and in my opinion one of the dangerous ideas out there, are the statements that go something like, "who cares is my steak came out well-done instead of rare; I'm on a cruise" or, "so what if HAL has terrible customer service -you complain too much." Such statements aren't constructive or helpful to HAL or to other cruisers who are looking for a good place to drop between 2 and a half to 10K on a vacation. If they are used to quality standards that have been promised in the past, they should expect them.

Take the issue that I commented on with Sail7Seas about Tampa Hotels: I gave my honest appraisal of some 'luxury' hotels in the Tampa area that are just not 'luxury' accomadations anymore. Product levels have slipped but the $$$ have not in some of these hotels. Meanwhile, some hotels that have not been known for luxury (The Marriot Waterside) have surpassed the Hyatt downtown in their product.

This is to say, once again, that HAL needs to address their slipping product standards (and overall ambiance for that matter) if they wish to continue to hold their moniker of being a 'premium' brand. I love HAL and certainly wish that they will not continue slipping.

uncialman

[superstein61]

Sailure,

Don't get me wrong here (I am not personally directing this to you) but the thing that irritates me the most, and in my opinion one of the dangerous ideas out there, are the statements that go something like, "who cares is my steak came out well-done instead of rare; I'm on a cruise" or, "so what if HAL has terrible customer service -you complain too much." Such statements aren't constructive or helpful to HAL or to other cruisers who are looking for a good place to drop between 2 and a half to 10K on a vacation. If they are used to quality standards that have been promised in the past, they should expect them.

Take the issue that I commented on with Sail7Seas about Tampa Hotels: I gave my honest appraisal of some 'luxury' hotels in the Tampa area that are just not 'luxury' accomadations anymore. Product levels have slipped but the $$$ have not in some of these hotels. Meanwhile, some hotels that have not been known for luxury (The Marriot Waterside) have surpassed the Hyatt downtown in their product.



How right you are uncialman. It is why I like to see post the good and the bad about their time on board. Presenting only a rose colored picture - (oh well XYZ was bad but I won't say so because hey, I am on a cruise) is wrong and misleading. I applaud those who share positive and negative experiences. It shows they are objective. no cruise line today is perfect. People asking questions need to hear both sides of the spectrum to get all the facts

[uncialman]

I am glad that you are a thinking man ( or woman, I claim ignorance!) and care about objective viewpoints.

That being said, fb0075 is correct in stating that things are much worse on the Princess boards where a single negative comment will get you leveled as a hellbound Celebrity spy or bent on world cruise domination by HAL or something. The fact is, the entire industry seems to be 'slipping' quite a bit and the only cruise lines to up the anty (quality and standards wise) are Celebrity and Crystal (with Crystal being out of range, price wise, of 99.99% of current regular cruisers). As someone who cruises all the lines, the slippage in HAL seems to be the most drastic of all the cruise lines with Carnival actually improving the bargain basement product.

Signature of Excellence?!?! We should do a poll and ask how many would prefer

1. Nice China
2. Egyptian Cotton
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3. Java Cafe over Windstar (pay) cafe
4. Keep the fruit
5. Classics and Light Jazz in public areas
6. R-Class Vessels (Rotterdam/Amsterdam)

I know that my wife and I would take the latter. However, the execs and product development folks at HAL seem hell-bent to shove the other down our throat.

If this kind of thing continues, HAL will no longer be the HAL that we fell in love with.

uncialman

[RevNeal]

... my wife and I would take the latter.

Ditto, though the extra-comfy beds will be very nice, I must admit. And, the S and R ships are my favorite too. I don't mind some change, but I do want quality ... particularly in service. When it slips, I'm not happy. I wasn't happy with the service problems I experienced on the Volendam in Jan 2002. By Nov/Dec 2002, on the Statendam, the service was -- in my experience -- pretty much what I've known since 1994. Last Sept., however, the service on the Volendam, while marginally acceptable, was weak in areas. The Cabin steward was top-notch, and our dining room crew did their very best, but it was difficult to watch them because it was apparent that they were short-handed. Where service was greatly lacking was in the lounge stewards. In some lounges the only way to get a drink was to go the bar. It got better as the week went by, but the first two night the only place one could get anything remotely like good service was the Piano Lounge; in the Explorers' lounge the service was (I'm sorry to say) pathetic. We didn't let it get to us ... we just went to where the service was good (and mentioned some of the problems to the Hotel Manager).

[superstein61]

I am glad that you are a thinking man ( or woman, I claim ignorance!) and care about objective viewpoints.

That being said, fb0075 is correct in stating that things are much worse on the Princess boards where a single negative comment will get you leveled as a hellbound Celebrity spy or bent on world cruise domination by HAL or something. The fact is, the entire industry seems to be 'slipping' quite a bit and the only cruise lines to up the anty (quality and standards wise) are Celebrity and Crystal (with Crystal being out of range, price wise, of 99.99% of current regular cruisers). As someone who cruises all the lines, the slippage in HAL seems to be the most drastic of all the cruise lines with Carnival actually improving the bargain basement product.

Signature of Excellence?!?! We should do a poll and ask how many would prefer

1. Nice China
2. Egyptian Cotton
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3. Java Cafe over Windstar (pay) cafe
4. Keep the fruit
5. Classics and Light Jazz in public areas
6. R-Class Vessels (Rotterdam/Amsterdam)

I know that my wife and I would take the latter. However, the execs and product development folks at HAL seem hell-bent to shove the other down our throat.

If this kind of thing continues, HAL will no longer be the HAL that we fell in love with.

uncialman

Uncialman - I agree that the entire industry has changed - and to me, there is very little differentiation between lines these days - which is why now I focus on itinerary and price when choosing moreso than a particular line. If itinerary and price are about equal, then I can focus on some of the small differences among most of the mass market lines.

Actually on the lists you presented - I would actually choose a mixture:

1.
2.
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3.
4.
5.
6. R-Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

On item 6 - since I haven't been on a Vista class yet (will be at the end of this month) I can't assess that yet. But different people have different likes -

[Thoth]

I am glad that you are a thinking man ( or woman, I claim ignorance!) and care about objective viewpoints.

That being said, fb0075 is correct in stating that things are much worse on the Princess boards where a single negative comment will get you leveled as a hellbound Celebrity spy or bent on world cruise domination by HAL or something. The fact is, the entire industry seems to be 'slipping' quite a bit and the only cruise lines to up the anty (quality and standards wise) are Celebrity and Crystal (with Crystal being out of range, price wise, of 99.99% of current regular cruisers). As someone who cruises all the lines, the slippage in HAL seems to be the most drastic of all the cruise lines with Carnival actually improving the bargain basement product.

Signature of Excellence?!?! We should do a poll and ask how many would prefer

1. Nice China
2. Egyptian Cotton
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3. Java Cafe over Windstar (pay) cafe
4. Keep the fruit
5. Classics and Light Jazz in public areas
6. R-Class Vessels (Rotterdam/Amsterdam)

I know that my wife and I would take the latter. However, the execs and product development folks at HAL seem hell-bent to shove the other down our throat.

If this kind of thing continues, HAL will no longer be the HAL that we fell in love with.

uncialmanI'll take the second set of list Class + Quality

[HeatherInFlorida]

Actually on the lists you presented - I would actually choose a mixture:

1.
2.
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3.
4.
5.
6. R-Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

On item 6 - since I haven't been on a Vista class yet (will be at the end of this month) I can't assess that yet. But different people have different likes -
Guess what, Superstein!!!!! I agree with you AGAIN!! Are the stars in alignment or what!!!???

Whoops! Spoke too soon. I don't need the fruit in a bowl. But other than that, you've got my vote.

[superstein61]

Guess what, Superstein!!!!! I agree with you AGAIN!! Are the stars in alignment or what!!!???

Whoops! Spoke too soon. I don't need the fruit in a bowl. But other than that, you've got my vote.

:) :) :) - Only reason I went for the fruit in the bowl is for my trusty blender :) Especially if there are banana's in that bowl :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

Only reason I went for the fruit in the bowl is for my trusty blender :) Especially if there are banana's in that bowl :)
Ooooooooooooooooh. I forgot you were bringing your blender. But don't worry about the bananas because I'm smuggling those onboard. There's plenty of room in my bags since I'm not smuggling any alcohol:D

[ekerr19]

I checked in today after a few weeks away from the board. Wow, I was surprised to see this topic is still on page one... I read a couple of other threads and can see why I posted it to begin with. Definitely strong opinions on some hot topics...

Is it just me, or does anyone else find the negativity draining? I'm really curious, not trying to blast anyone - but it gets hard to keep reading the same blasts over and over again.

Someone (Gizmo, I think) posted earlier in this thread what negativity I was referring to - sorry I should have specified, but it's just the general tone of some of the threads and the comments.

I used to love spending time here, lately it feels like a battleground. Anyone else have the same feeling?

[superstein61]

Ooooooooooooooooh. I forgot you were bringing your blender. But don't worry about the bananas because I'm smuggling those onboard. There's plenty of room in my bags since I'm not smuggling any alcohol:D

Great. We have the blender, banana's and rum all covered now. Who else is in with what ?

[HeatherInFlorida]

.................................
Is it just me, or does anyone else find the negativity draining? I'm really curious, not trying to blast anyone - but it gets hard to keep reading the same blasts over and over again....................

.....I used to love spending time here, lately it feels like a battleground. Anyone else have the same feeling?
ekerr, I have often found it somewhat draining for sure. On the other hand, I've found if I stick with it and scan around a bit, it's overall an upbeat feeling and as time goes by there's more and more joking around and it all takes on a different feel. You'll see a person battling it out on one thread and lending help and support on another.

Heck, I even made friends with Superstein and we were really battling it out on a thread that has since been locked up! So there's always hope.

I've left here a couple of times and I'll probably leave again because who has the time? But overall I think it's a nice group of people who obviously love cruising (otherwise, why would they keep doing it?), but who also have some very strong feelings about a lot of things. Put that all together on one board, or more specifically one thread, and it can become a little overpowering at times.

It's human nature for people to spend more time complaining than complimenting. I agree that it can get overly negative at times which was what drew me to your thread in the first place. But I have to tell you that I've learned something over the past few days and in the end, for me, it was a good feeling.

Happy Sailing!

[Seadoc]

Yet again, confusion abounds...otherwise rational people suddenly succumb
to the dreaded and incurable "is this a message board or an email?" syndrome.
The oprahization (i.e., pc, dogmatism, cronyism, etc) of this board aside, it's possible that those who come here for OBJECTIVE and EFFICIENT information (positive or negative) about this cruiseline are thwarted in large measure because a (large) number of (regular) posters communicate on this board when personal emails to one another would be infinitely more appropriate. The inane and banal doesn't belong here. Parenthetically (...and here comes the dipping of the toe in the water of hell) NO ONE cares how many cruises you've taken...or to have to buzz by your cute little (and often endless) list of past water-based-vacations...or whether you and whomever are going to be on the same cruise or be able to meet...all of that is PERSONAL and belongs in PERSONAL emails.
The endemic intolerance here seems due to a few factoids: a few (very few) posters here are sufficiently prolific in posting that entire libraries are being constructed to house their post memoirs (and boards that announce the number of previous posts per individual contribute to this endless and often meaningless drivel)...people are fundamentally insecure and need the reassurance (?identification?) of belonging to something (in this case the "HAL family") because of which posts which denigrate (even if objective) anything about the beloved HAL are to be dissed (or is that "treated with disdain"?)...the combo of prolific writing and being a member of the "HAL family" leads to insularism, intolerance, judgementalism and this particular board.
Solutions?
None that have a snowball's chance of success....just watch...
Toodleoo

[HeatherInFlorida]

Oh, for heaven's sakehttp://boards2.cruisecritic.com/images/smilies/eek.gif ... Lighten up!!! Just let it be whatever it is. The majority enjoy it. If you don't, Seadoc, then don't imbibe.

[uncialman]

I was sipping some coffee, and considering my schedule for this afternoon, when I saw the comments made by Seadoc in his post above.

I am not a frequent poster here, and I am always at a disadvantage to those who "know" one another and the positions "behind" the arguments being presented. When I have a few moments, then, to post something, I am confined to the specific arguments being addressed. Without a "history" it can become difficult to differentiate between a position being advanced and a position being forwarded simply for argument's sake. If I confuse the two, please forgive me:-)

I would agree with Seadoc in some small measure as to what can be described as a pseudo-apologetic used by some who are just ‘fans’ of HAL and refuse to have any meaningful discourse in regards to another posters opinion about a particular cruise or ship. I had viewed a friend of mine who had previously posted his comments on his recent cruise Zuiderdam and was subsuquently thrashed by the HAL apologists without regard to his objective view. While this small amount of discrimination or protectionism exists, it is balanced somewhat by those that compose the “Never Again” threads that are just as meaningless and un-objective. In the HAL board’s defense, however, I would state that the lack of objectivity on this board pales in comparison to that which is found on the Princess forum.

Unfortunately, from here-on you determined to display a rather ad-hominem attitude which cannot be commended at all. The “HAL family” that you speak of has several positive attributes that directly affect the opinions and strategies of those who make the decisions in Seattle. Stated plainly, HAL reads this forum. While it is true that positive tolerance (Definition: I must not only agree that what you say is right, but praise your opinion even though it is contrary to truth (as long as it fits in your grid of what you are tolerant of)) is in itself intolerant of negative tolerance ( Definition: I disagree with you, challenge what you are saying but agree that you have the right to hold your opinion), we must still act civilly and respond to one another in such a fashion in which our voice will be heard and not rejected. It seems as if the objection being forwarded is that the "choice" was simultaneous to, or cotemporaneous with the idea that ‘negativism’ towards aspects of a cruise experience are wrong and I wholeheartedly agree that such a position does not help the purpose of the board as a whole. However, there are many who are presently on this board that have found a loose “communion” with others of like-mind and enjoy corresponding about their journeys. I won’t, for a second, say that they are engaged in “drivel” for the sake of elevating my opinion. I believe that in your rather abrupt conclusion you have committed a logical fallacy while waiting certain replies to your post and pray that you will reconsider the manner in which your objection is promoted.

[xpcdoojk]

Yet again, confusion abounds...otherwise rational people suddenly succumb
to the dreaded and incurable "is this a message board or an email?" syndrome.
The oprahization (i.e., pc, dogmatism, cronyism, etc) of this board aside, it's possible that those who come here for OBJECTIVE and EFFICIENT information (positive or negative) about this cruiseline are thwarted in large measure because a (large) number of (regular) posters communicate on this board when personal emails to one another would be infinitely more appropriate. The inane and banal doesn't belong here. Parenthetically (...and here comes the dipping of the toe in the water of hell) NO ONE cares how many cruises you've taken...or to have to buzz by your cute little (and often endless) list of past water-based-vacations...or whether you and whomever are going to be on the same cruise or be able to meet...all of that is PERSONAL and belongs in PERSONAL emails.
The endemic intolerance here seems due to a few factoids: a few (very few) posters here are sufficiently prolific in posting that entire libraries are being constructed to house their post memoirs (and boards that announce the number of previous posts per individual contribute to this endless and often meaningless drivel)...people are fundamentally insecure and need the reassurance (?identification?) of belonging to something (in this case the "HAL family") because of which posts which denigrate (even if objective) anything about the beloved HAL are to be dissed (or is that "treated with disdain"?)...the combo of prolific writing and being a member of the "HAL family" leads to insularism, intolerance, judgementalism and this particular board.
Solutions?
None that have a snowball's chance of success....just watch...
Toodleoo

You strike me as a rather unpleasant piece of work, as you say Toodleoo right on off this meaningless board into some sort of unpleasant place that is more to your liking.

jc <---- I have never been on a HAL cruise, but thought that this poster is about as trivial as anything I have read on any forum.

[superstein61]

I believe a lot of what Seadoc says is true, but uncialman makes some good points as well. I would position my view partly between the two

[HeatherInFlorida]

You can all have at it on a thread that had pretty much died a natural death until Seadoc resurrected it.

You know what? I find it unabashed pontificating adnauseum. So have fun with each other.

[jima53]

Why do you say unbased negative,,,, everyone doens't have the perfect cruise vacation. If they disagree does that mean they are trolls, are you special if you consider you and your website friends post a bunch of times...I don'tthink so,,,,

Jim

[superstein61]

Why do you say unbased negative,,,, everyone doens't have the perfect cruise vacation. If they disagree does that mean they are trolls, are you special if you consider you and your website friends post a bunch of times...I don'tthink so,,,,

Jim

Correct Jim - no one knows what another person may have experienced. Everyone should always feel free to post the good and the bad !!!!!

I find reviews that do so are much more objective and realistic than those who only present one side or the other