Attn. Zuiderdam - St Thomas 11pm Port Time - Cruisers

[superstein61]

We are all screwed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As many of you know, HAL has been flipping many of its Zuiderdam Eastern Caribbean itinerary's - So even though they still blatantly publish a 8am - 11pm St Thomas port call followed by a 7am-6pm Tortola port call - they have been switching these ports and leaving from both at 6pm. A PURE BAIT AND SWITCH ADVERTISING TACTIC.

Numerous folks have written to inquire about upcoming cruises and were either not responded to or told of no change.

I was one of those told of no change on my cruise in a few weeks.

TODAY - I found out otherwise. IN FACT - HAL IS SWITCHING THESE PORTS FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR !!!.

I quote:

Unfortunately, the schedule change that affected the sailings we listed below, has now been extended to also include all of the ms ZUIDERDAM Eastern Caribbean sailings for the rest of this year. The ms ZUIDERDAM will now be in Tortola at 7:00am until 6:00pm on Tuesday and in St. Thomas from 7:00am until 6:00pm on Wednesday. We are truly sorry that this change is a disappointment for you. However, as explained in our below response, our brochures state, "situations may arise which, in our opinion, make it necessary for us to cancel, advance, or postpone a scheduled departure, change itineraries or make substitutions involving, hotels, restaurants, ports of call..."

This is truly a disappointing and revolting change for many folks who booked this cruise specifically due to the late 11pm St Thomas departure.

I hope you join my in filing false advertising complaints with the Federal trade Commission and the Washington State Attorney General's office

[gizmo]

I know that clause has always been there, but the least they could do it explaine why. I would like to know what the "situations" are that caused the change.

[superstein61]

Gizmo - I agree. They did not provide me any explanantion in the email I rec'd.

As i have said before, I can certainly understand changes due to weather, unforeseen circumstances, etc - but to basically advertise and sell this itinerary for more than a year - offering something no other ship matched (ie the 11pm St Thomas departure) - and then start changing it in April without warning - and no official notice for the rest of the year until today is just plain wrong. I leave in 2 weeks. I have no choice but to continue on - as has anyone who has paid in full and is inside the cancellation period.

This is particulalrly upsetting to me - because I book based on itinerary and price - and we passed up some other deals becuase we wanted the long port time in St Thomas.

HAL certianly has some explaining to do

[tammar]

I'm sorry. I can understand why your upset, but what I don't understand is what is their to do in St Thomas at night, other than to go to dinner. Am I missing something? Is there something new to do in St Thomas at night. I know the downtown area is not safe at night. So you have me curious.:confused:

[Roadwork]

I would not be interested in the night life on St.Thomas, BUT the extended hours gives a person a much longer time to do things during the day and gives a person the opportunity to do things they might not do if the ship left early.

For all those that planned on a long day I am sorry this happened. :(

[superstein61]

Tammer - thanks.

Well, mainly we wanted to spend the extra time on St Johns. By not leaving until 11pm - we could have stayed on St Johns as long as we wanted, had dinner there, taken a 9pm ferry back and still made it back to the ship in plenty of time - now we have to be sure to rush back on the 3pm ferry. Thats a big change and ruins the plans we made for visiting several places we wanted to go to in St Johns. So basically we have to cut some things out that we were really looking forward to

[srpilo]

Son of a B#$*@..

I just Yesterday recieved another e-mail response, this time from a supervisor that I demanded to speak with.. And he said, "I stick by what "Jennifer" stated in her original reply, and that is, Zuiderdam has and will continue to call on St Thomas on Tuesdays from 08:00am til 11;00pm" ... I swear to god that was less than 24 hrs ago from a supposed Supervisor !!!!..

@#/&$#%! Incrediible !!!!!


One question "Superstein61" was information also conveyed in an e-mail, and if so, could you e-mail me a copy, so I can RAM IT DOWN his lying throat.. yeah right, supervisor my A$$.. Way to go HAL !!

Srpilo@hotmail.com

Thanks ..

[superstein61]

Srpilo - yes, unfortunately I rec'd that email this afternoon.

I will give HAL one piece of credit (even though I am very upset about this)- and that is they sent this email because they had previously told me otherwise (according to the new email). So at least they were responsible now in following up and correcting their earlier response to me.

So while I will be happy to forward the email - why don't you wait and see if you get a correction email from HAL. I am curious if they will - especially since you asked to hear form a supervisor

[tammar]

Wow! thank you for the info. I did not know they had a ferry that late from St. Johns. Now I understand your dissappointment.

But now I am getting cross messages. We are sailing on the Z Aug 14th. Guess we will have a plan A and a plan B lol. What else can we do?:confused:

[drk]

We too booked this cruise because we wanted to spend a real day in St. Johns and not have to rush back to the ship. Our cruise is not until 12/11 but we have paid in full and will have to get a refund as well as pay a cancellation fee to the online agency we used with the booking. I have also emailed HAL in this regard. I feel your pain. We would much rather just skip Nassua which would give the ship plenty of time to stay late in St. Thomas on Wednesday and sail back to Ft. L with 2 sea days.

[KAKcruiser]

I would happily accept the St. Thomas switch if they would substitute St. Maarten for Tortola. I love the St. Thomas and St. Maarten combination that the Zuiderdam did last year.

[Tatka]

I don't know how reliable i-*********** is (although I like them as a agency) but
they list 3 different Eastern Ceribbean itinerary:

July 17,31 FLL - HMC - Day at Sea - Tortola - St Thomas - Day at Sea - Nassau - Fll

August 14 - Dec 11 FLL - HMC - Day at Sea - St Thomas - Tortola - Day at sea - Nassau - Fll

December 24 FLL - HMC - Day at Sea - St.Thomas - St.Maarten - 2 Days at Sea - Fll

[superstein61]

Tatka - Well, i just received that email from HAL this afternoon saying they were changing all cruises on the Z thru year end- so I am sure it will take time for all the travel agency sites to update their sites with the revised itinerary.

Of course - who knows - I guess HAL could always change again given the fiasco this has been- but I am just passing on what the email I rec'd said

[MandyGirl]

:confused: Any clue what the "situation" was that "arised" to cause HAL to "make it necessary ...to change itineraries"??? :confused:
Ugh - We were one of those, too, who had specifically booked for the longer port time in St Thomas so we could enjoy St John without rushing back. :( Having taken a land vacation on St John, we truly enjoy spending time there - including in the evenings. Plus we married there on cruise #3. Cruz Bay does have good nightlife, and it is a peaceful type of nightlife after the other cruiseships leave - which made this itinerary all the more appealling to book.

Fortunately, we don't leave until Thanksgiving week, so I appreciate learning well in advance to adjust my independently booked plans for Tortola / St John. However, like many of you, I wish HAL would have been honest at the time we were booking in June since the flip-flop was already being done (but not advertised). I booked this cruise through BPC so I don't know if I'll even receive notice from them on the change - and I believe they charge a fee for changing cruises even outside the cxl date.

I wonder why HAL doesn't extend Tortola - so that those who do a daysail all day (typically 9A-4P) still have time to see Tortola before dark or enjoy a leisurely drink (Painkiller) at Pusser's? Or does Tortola have local regulations for all ships to be departed by a certain time?

Sorry for you folks just getting this short notice. :mad: This disappoints me, too. I never received a reply from the email I sent HAL, so at least someone here got a reply and could share here! Thank goodness I wasn't planning my St John wedding on THIS cruise!

[vjb223]

I also am dissapointed, we arranged charters and car rentals based on their schedule and called last week and they said no changes. It is hard to plan on other tours on your own. The change is def. NOT weather wise. Darn, now have to start all over in two ports and yes staying in St. Thomas to have more time in St. John was one of the reason booked. vjb

[Mrs B]

We leave on the 17th and our TA called this morning to inform us of the change in itinerary. She had received a call from HAL requesting that all passengers be called and notified of the change.

[Florida Lady]

JUST RECEIVED THIS RESPONSE FROM HAL RESERVATIONS

7/15/2004 2:20:26 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Hal_Reservations@HollandAmerica.com

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the ms Zuiderdam departing August 14, 2004.

Currently, the ms Zuiderdam's schedule is as follows:

DAY | DATE | CITY | ARRIVE | DEPART
---------------------------------------------------------
SAT 08/14/04 FT LAUDERDALE 5:00PM
SUN 08/15/04 HALF MOON CAY 8:00AM 4:00PM
MON 08/16/04 AT SEA
TUE 08/17/04 ST THOMAS, US V.I. 8:00AM 11:00PM
WED 08/18/04 ROAD TOWN, TORTOLA 7:00AM 6:00PM
THU 08/19/04 AT SEA
FRI 08/20/04 NASSAU, BAHAMAS 12:00PM 7:00PM
SAT 08/21/04 FT LAUDERDALE 8:00AM

*****Please be advised this is subject to change.

If you have any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us. Our valued Mariner's comments or suggestions are always welcome and very much appreciated. For over 130 years Holland America has upheld a reputation for five-star service and unequaled cruise itineraries. Our award-winning fleet sails to Alaska, the Caribbean, the Panama Canal, Hawaii, the Pacific Northwest, Mexico, Europe, Canada & New England, South America, and Around the World. We look forward to welcoming you onboard again in the near future.

Thank you for your continued patronage!

Kind Regards,


Teresa
Internet Department
Holland America Line, Inc.
(877) SAIL-HAL

[srpilo]

Ok according to Florida Lady's e-mail , we're back to where we started...:confused:



What a Mickey Mouse company..
Srpilo

[MandyGirl]

Maybe they can just flip a coin at the end of lifeboat drill each Saturday to determine which comes first - St Thomas or Tortola?? :rolleyes:

[Thumpr]

Me and my wife are doing this itenerary Aug 28, We have not recieved anything regarding this, we recieved our cruise papers last week and the itenerary is the same as when we booked, If this is true i will be very upset
I guess if enough people complain they might change it back. I hope they do I was looking forward to the long stay in St. Thomas!!!

[kryos]

I would not be interested in the night life on St.Thomas, BUT the extended hours gives a person a much longer time to do things during the day and gives a person the opportunity to do things they might not do if the ship left early.

For all those that planned on a long day I am sorry this happened. :(
Thank God I booked shore excursions through HA. I would assume they will have to make good on any that can't be done now because of leaving earlier. I don't have my listing here right now, but some might finish up pretty close to departure time.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[doone]

Well, I hope my itinerary doesn't change for St. Thomas on my Zuiderdam cruise next March. If it does, it will be ok, we'll make it work, but we will also be disappointed.

I am curious to know the situations as well as to why this change!!!

[MandyGirl]

Thumpr - I think I read on a post where some recent Zuiderdam cruisers did not find out about their port swap until after boarding even though their documents showed the original itinerary.

Side note on Immigration:
The best thing I have read thus far is that if you do Tortola first, then St Thomas, then you now have to go through Immigration before disembarking in St Thomas... (wouldn't have to with the original itinerary)... but they now give you a card where you can go ahead and get off the ship. :) Last year on our Maasdam cruise, they had to clear the ENTIRE ship before ANYBODY could get off in our already short Key West port... and you always have those few cabins who think the rules don't apply to them and disregard their names/cabin numbers being called overhead dozens of times. So the ship disembarked two hours late but still left Key West on time. If what I have read about Zuiderdam in St Thomas clearing Immigration recently, that will be so nice to be able to get off the ship after clearing Immigration and not have to wait extra hours.

[MandyGirl]

One more thing... I have used this link for years and have found it to be quite accurate. It might help looking at future months to see what they are showing for Zuiderdam... Tuesdays or Wednesdays. This site is updated on a monthly basis (at the end of each month to depict the following month). I'm sure HAL must communicate with port officials of their schedule.

http://www.**********/general_usvi/getting_here/usvi_cruise_ship.php (http://www.**********/general_usvi/getting_here/usvi_cruise_ship.php)

[viennacruiser]

We are also booked on the Z in March 05, I really was looking forward to a long day in St John, we went 2 years ago, going on our own without the ships tour..
If not I guess a day in St Thomas in March is better than a day in Virginia in march !!!!

[thebird]

Me and my wife are doing this itenerary Aug 28, We have not recieved anything regarding this, we recieved our cruise papers last week and the itenerary is the same as when we booked, If this is true i will be very upset
I guess if enough people complain they might change it back. I hope they do I was looking forward to the long stay in St. Thomas!!!


ROFLMAO!!!

umm....

[superstein61]

Ok according to Florida Lady's e-mail , we're back to where we started...:confused:



What a Mickey Mouse company..
Srpilo

Florida Lady - Please contact HAL's Customer Relations dept and see what they tell you. It seems some of these departments must not talk to one another. The email I rec'd was from Customer relations - who sent it on their own because a week earlier in response to my question, they told me there would be no change.

[mattR]

Was also looking forward to the extra long day in St. Thomas. One ship in port vrs 5 is a nice change though. Any ideas how many ships in Tortola on Tuesdays now?

[MandyGirl]

I don't know about Tortola - does anyone know if they post their "ships in port" schedule online?

This is the one for St Thomas: http://www.**********/general_usvi/getting_here/usvi_cruise_ship.php (http://www.**********/general_usvi/getting_here/usvi_cruise_ship.php)
However, it is only updated at the end of each month for the following month.

[MandyGirl]

Out of personal curiousity, I utilized Travelocity and Orbitz to research my particular sailing week of the Zuiderdam (Nov 20) to see how many ships are showing various itineraries involving St Thomas and Tortola... just to see if I could get a ballpark of how many would be in those two ports Thanksgiving week. (Maybe that is the reason HAL could be switching ports but they just won't say it?????)

Schedule on hollandamerica.com (the one we booked, and it is currently showing this now):
Nov 20 - embarkation day
Nov 21 - HMC
Nov 22 - sea
Nov 23 (Tues) - St Thomas
Nov 24 - Tortola
Nov 25 - sea
Nov 26 - Nassau
Nov 27 - disembark FLL

I focused my research on specifically St Thomas and Tortola during that timeframe.

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Tuesday 11/23 St Thomas:
Zuiderdam (original schedule)
RCCL Navigator
Caribbean Princess
Carnival Triumph

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Wednesday 11/24 Tortola:
Zuiderdam (original schedule)
HAL Veendam



But in looking further, just in case the ports are indeed switched...

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Tuesday 11/23 Tortola:
No other ships are showing for Tortola this day
(this is the possible new date for Zuiderdam Tortola according to one dept at HAL)

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Wednesday 11/24 St Thomas:
possible Zuiderdam day
RCCL Radiance of Seas

Costa Atlantica


Of course this is assuming I didn't make an error, which is totally possible.

If this is correct, then we are going from four ships in port at STT down to three ships in STT on Wednesday, which is probably a lot less if looking at number of berths on each ship. And then also going from two ships at Tortola down to just one ship if switched.

What gets me is this...
if this change is truly happening and ports are swapping for Zuiderdam the remainder of the year, why doesn't HAL just say "hey, to benefit the passengers, we are switching ports so that you will have xxxx less passengers in port and can be less crowded when ashore" ? :confused: By just swapping ports and not even telling passengers "why"... that certainly creates a lot of questions, unhappiness, and mistrust towards HAL.

So that's my thinking... ports are being swapped to have less passengers in port. We knew from recent Zuiderdam cruisers that it made less ships in port for them, so I was curious how different the Fall cruise schedule in that area would look from the current summer Caribbean schedule.

[joand452]

Hi Viennacruizer! Couldn't help but notice that you're in Virginia--I live in Fairfax. Over on the Royal Caribbean board, there's a lively bunch of Virginia (and MD and DC) cruisers. The thread is labelled "Island Cruisers of VA." Come join us!

BTW, on our April cruise, we were told about the switch after we had boarded. The excuse they gave was that there would be too many ships in St. Thomas on Tuesday, and we'd have to tender in. It didn't matter to us as we had never been, so... But I definitely know we wouldn't miss never going to Tortola again ;-)

[ekerr19]

Out of personal curiousity, I utilized Travelocity and Orbitz to research my particular sailing week of the Zuiderdam (Nov 20) to see how many ships are showing various itineraries involving St Thomas and Tortola... just to see if I could get a ballpark of how many would be in those two ports Thanksgiving week. (Maybe that is the reason HAL could be switching ports but they just won't say it?????)

Schedule on hollandamerica.com (the one we booked, and it is currently showing this now):
Nov 20 - embarkation day
Nov 21 - HMC
Nov 22 - sea
Nov 23 (Tues) - St Thomas
Nov 24 - Tortola
Nov 25 - sea
Nov 26 - Nassau
Nov 27 - disembark FLL

I focused my research on specifically St Thomas and Tortola during that timeframe.

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Tuesday 11/23 St Thomas:
Zuiderdam (original schedule)
RCCL Navigator
Caribbean Princess
Carnival Triumph

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Wednesday 11/24 Tortola:
Zuiderdam (original schedule)
HAL Veendam



But in looking further, just in case the ports are indeed switched...

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Tuesday 11/23 Tortola:
No other ships are showing for Tortola this day
(this is the possible new date for Zuiderdam Tortola according to one dept at HAL)

Showing on Orbitz/Travelocity for Wednesday 11/24 St Thomas:
possible Zuiderdam day
RCCL Radiance of Seas

Costa Atlantica


Of course this is assuming I didn't make an error, which is totally possible.

If this is correct, then we are going from four ships in port at STT down to three ships in STT on Wednesday, which is probably a lot less if looking at number of berths on each ship. And then also going from two ships at Tortola down to just one ship if switched.

What gets me is this...
if this change is truly happening and ports are swapping for Zuiderdam the remainder of the year, why doesn't HAL just say "hey, to benefit the passengers, we are switching ports so that you will have xxxx less passengers in port and can be less crowded when ashore" ? :confused: By just swapping ports and not even telling passengers "why"... that certainly creates a lot of questions, unhappiness, and mistrust towards HAL.

So that's my thinking... ports are being swapped to have less passengers in port. We knew from recent Zuiderdam cruisers that it made less ships in port for them, so I was curious how different the Fall cruise schedule in that area would look from the current summer Caribbean schedule.

Mandygirl-

It looks like that took quite a bit of research on your part! Keeping in mind not all travel websites show all cruises, it seems like there might be more in St. Thomas, especially when it's a holiday cruise. We've yet to cruise to St. T (recently) when there were less than 5-6 ships in port. If you want to know for sure - you may want to check the individual websites for Princess, Celebrity, Carnival, HAL, etc.

Also, the travel sites may not be showing sold out cruises... just a thought - I know the work involved - we often do this and have had the best luck researching the cruiseline websites.

We are ALWAYS interested to know which ships will be at HMC the same time we are - the times and size ship give us an idea what to expect.

PS- I've read really negative things on these boards about Tortola, which is a shame, IMO - we love that island!

[MandyGirl]

ekerr -

Fortunately it only took me about 30 minutes to search, especially using ctrl+f to find "thomas" in the ports listed, click on it, look at the itinerary in detail, and then type the name on a spreadsheet if it had STT or Tortola on Tues or Wed. Yes, I realized that some may not show up, which is why I did it on both websites as a cross-check. Orbitz will usually show the cruises even if sold out, but both showed the major lines fairly well (I think my search result showed 114 Caribbean cruises, but I was only looking at two specific days - I found several to visit St Thomas that week, but not on Tues/Wed). It was good to see Costa listed - I don't believe they show up with Travelocity. However, I think I captured the major ships (didn't search Windjammer, but those are very small), and I also searched "all Caribbean" for all lengths beginning slightly before our saildate since Eastern and Southern usually visit that area. You'd have a 14-day ultimate Caribbean here and there. It may not be "the full picture" but it gives a good ballpark idea. :)

We have vacationed on St John during Thanksgiving week (2002), and I think the most that were ever in port then were five ships - some days had one or two. We determined when we would visit Trunk Bay that week based on the day there were the least number of ships scheduled to be in port (but then I used St Thomas' cruise ship schedule (http://www.**********/general_usvi/getting_here/usvi_cruise_ship.php) since it was within that month).

Half Moon Cay... oooohh... can't wait! We love that stop! Definitely hope for only one ship there!

We're looking forward to visiting Tortola, but mainly to board a catamaran for a day sail to smaller BVI. We've done a daysail to Jost Van Dyke, so this time we will visit others. We figured that when staying in the USVI, we can easily catch a ferry to Tortola, but can't get to the smaller islands quite as easily, so we'll visit those this time and save Tortola for later. However, doing that search, I rarely saw Tortola listed as a port of call.

[ekerr19]

Doesn't seem likes its going to be very crowded while you're there - that will be nice. Our last cruise (April 2004) we didn't get off the ship in STT because of the number of ships in port - also because of the construction. We docked at the Navy (or is Coast Guard?) pier - an $8-$10 taxi ride into town.

We enjoyed an almost empty ship and great weather, so it was a plus for us.

[srpilo]

Ok..

I think some people think the HAL may have our best interest in mind about switching the days, but that still leaves three big questions in my mind..

1 . Surely HAL (Carnival Corp) knew the port schedule in advance of their own ships, because it appears the crowding problem stems from weekly calls by various Carnival and Princess ships on Tuesdays, which, by the way, NEVER give up THEIR pier position for a HAL ship.. So good ole Zuiderdam customers eat the bullet over Carnival and Princess customers, and give up their pier spot and our 11pm depature time every week .. Is that fair?

2 . Why the subtrefuge on HAL's part.. Why the layers and layers of lies and half truths to its customers.. If indeed their making the switch is for "OUR OWN BENIFIT" (umm?) ,after we've booked it under the old itinerary, why not simply just tell us the truth in advance, so we can at least ajust our plans accordingly ? One poster just mentioned his cruise was switched last April .. So HAL's been thinking about, or doing this switch for atleast 4 months ... geeezz ??

3 . If indeed this over crowding can't or WON"T be rectifided by Carnival Corp to the benifit of HAL customers and to the original advertisted itinerary, the ethical and honest thing to do, would be to atleast change the posted itinerary to show the revised days and times, so that new unsuspecting customers aren't lured in with the false and misleading itinerary (as I was), only to "ultimitly" be lied to. and dissapointed by HAL when the days are indeed secretly switched (as WE were)..


So .. Are they, as some say "doing us a favor" by switching the days...? Maybe Yes, But only if you FORGET that they lied to us from the begining and created some the problem in St Thomas with their own ships..


Come on people, are we the stupid "Sheep" that HAL thinks we are ?? Well are we?

I'll say in again .. Just tell us the truth HAL!

Srpilo..

[drk]

Just received an email resulting from my request to confirm the itinerary for our 12/11 sailing on the Zuiderdam. HAL is still sticking with the St. T/Tuesday and Tortola/Wed schedule. I also know that the Zaandam does Tortola/Tues and St. T/Weds out of Port Canaveral. We chose the Zuiderdam over the Zaandam because of the additional time in St. T even though the Zaandam is located in a much more convenient port for us to sail out of. This is our first experience with HAL having sailed Celebrity and Carnival several times over the past couple years. So far we're not impressed...kinda ruins the anticipation when you can't plan or be confident in the itinerary.

[superstein61]

Ok..

I think some people think the HAL may have our best interest in mind about switching the days, but that still leaves three big questions in my mind..

1 . Surely HAL (Carnival Corp) knew the port schedule in advance of their own ships, because it appears the crowding problem stems from weekly calls by various Carnival and Princess ships on Tuesdays, which, by the way, NEVER give up THEIR pier position for a HAL ship.. So good ole Zuiderdam customers eat the bullet over Carnival and Princess customers, and give up their pier spot and our 11pm depature time every week .. Is that fair?

2 . Why the subtrefuge on HAL's part.. Why the layers and layers of lies and half truths to its customers.. If indeed their making the switch is for "OUR OWN BENIFIT" (umm?) ,after we've booked it under the old itinerary, why not simply just tell us the truth in advance, so we can at least ajust our plans accordingly ? One poster just mentioned his cruise was switched last April .. So HAL's been thinking about, or doing this switch for atleast 4 months ... geeezz ??

3 . If indeed this over crowding can't or WON"T be rectifided by Carnival Corp to the benifit of HAL customers and to the original advertisted itinerary, the ethical and honest thing to do, would be to atleast change the posted itinerary to show the revised days and times, so that new unsuspecting customers aren't lured in with the false and misleading itinerary (as I was), only to "ultimitly" be lied to. and dissapointed by HAL when the days are indeed secretly switched (as WE were)..


So .. Are they, as some say "doing us a favor" by switching the days...? Maybe Yes, But only if you FORGET that they lied to us from the begining and created some the problem in St Thomas with their own ships..


Come on people, are we the stupid "Sheep" that HAL thinks we are ?? Well are we?

I'll say in again .. Just tell us the truth HAL!

Srpilo..

AGREED Srpilo !!!!!

Since Carnival owns so many of the lines these days - HAl certianly knew what Carnival related ships would be in St Thomas.

I don't think its a stretcth to say that HAL has had problems filling the Zuiderdam. At first all the negative comments from early cruisers, then the feeling from many old time HAL customers that wasn't the ship for them. Look at the prices and you will see what I mean. HAL has had to cut the Z prices significantly on many occassions. People here have noted that they were able to pay so little for a S or SS Suite.

So you have a ship that has trouble selling - besides price, what else could HAL do but improve the itinerary. So they offer this great 8am - 11pm port time for St Thomas - advertising it for all unsuspecting potential buyers to see and suck people in. They sure got me - and several others from this thread. That 11pm departure time was the deciding factor in my choice.

But then HAL starts not delivering on their promise. They don't tell people until a few weeks before their cruise if that. Some have been told on board - sorry we have an itinerary change. But they keep on advertising the old itinerary and sucking more unsuspecting folks in.

And they don't even change port times in Tortola - still leaving at 5 or 6 - even though a couple of folks on a raft could float from Tortola to St Thomas in the same time overnight it takes HAL to move the 30 miles.

This is no simple error or coincedence IMO. HAL knew or should have known there was a problem. Yet they keep doing it.

Everyone should stand their ground and not let HAL get away with this. File your complaints with the applicable agencies. Contact HAl and let them know your displeasure over this bait and switch tactic. It is wrong. Just plain wrong.

[Thumpr]

i contacted Holland America and they told me that our sailing has not been changed. I asked them about this weeks sailing and she said it changed to what you are saying! She informed me it was due to the number of boats in the port at the time. I asked to talk to a supervisor and he told me that the Aug. 28 sailing will not change, But i guess we will see when the time comes

[superstein61]

i contacted Holland America and they told me that our sailing has not been changed. I asked them about this weeks sailing and she said it changed to what you are saying! She informed me it was due to the number of boats in the port at the time. I asked to talk to a supervisor and he told me that the Aug. 28 sailing will not change, But i guess we will see when the time comes

Thumpr - I truly hope thats true. Lord knows it seems even different HAl departments are giving out varying information.

While its too late to save my cruise from this change in a few weeks - if there is enough continued outcry and questions - maybe someone at HAL will wake up and stop this from occurring for others.

But I honestly wouldn't hold my breath - given how HAL has said one thing to people a month or more out and then a few weeks, or days or even onboard the ship said something else.

But I do truly hope it you and everyone else in mid August forward do get what you paid for

[jima53]

Well with the little disclaimer they have an out anytime they want to change things. We made cruise reservations more than a year ago and have avidly read the forums ever sense. Hal should know that they are costing themselves money that we would have spent except they are regularly adjusting their schedules so much that we don't want to do anything but stay on the ship. Non alcohol drinkers so they won't make any money off us that way, they have lost a Cabana rental from us and several shore excursions because we feel like they won't keep to their port visits time frame which will affect how we enjoy ourselves.

Jim

[MandyGirl]

srpilo -

I totally agree with you. HAL should be honest, and if changing cruise itineraries for Zui since April... that just goes to show HAL's way of doing business.

But... if I can find a positive in all this confusion/dishonesty, I think the one single positive may be "one" fewer ship in port of STT and Tortola. However, that probably doesn't counteract the overall shortened time in port.

The day we married on St John, there were five ships in port (Spring Break). Luckily, we chose a non-touristy beach to repeat our vows, and there were only a couple of other people on the entire beach that were not part of the wedding. So peaceful beaches can be found when many ships are in port as long as you don't go to the big tourist attractions. And great drinks can be had while watching sunset as the other cruiseships leave port! :)

It would be interesting to keep a tally of the Eastern Zui cruises to see how many:
- remain as scheduled
- switch ports but give some sort of forewarning
- switch ports but give no warning until after boarding

Anyone know what the tally be thus far?

[superstein61]

It would be interesting to keep a tally of the Eastern Zui cruises to see how many:
- remain as scheduled
- switch ports but give some sort of forewarning
- switch ports but give no warning until after boarding

Anyone know what the tally be thus far?

Well, according to HAl (and we will need confirmation for pax here) - these Eastern Zuiderdam cruises have already been affected:

April 24
May 22
June 5
July 3
July 17

And per my email - they say

July 31 will be and everyone thereafter the rest of the year. We will see.

If you know of another date not noted above that was affected by this change, please post

[gizmo]

Two years ago my entire itinerary was switched around, it was reversed. Hal never notificed us. I found it on Hal's web site. I was not happy since I booked it based on which port we would or would not be in on a Sunday. I wanted to shop at Cuaraco. I read on these boards that many shops did not open on Sundays and those that did closed early. What really ticked me off was I asked on board about the shops closing. I was told "Most will all be open". Wrong, only a handful was open for a couple of hours. The town was dead from noon on.
While on board they substitued a port because of "political unrest" which was ok with us but the port Hal choose was a real bummer. (margarita) Most pax did not mind the switch but did mind the port that was choosen. So many nice islands and they stuck us in Margarita.

[KSCnCA]

I will be on the Zui Dec. 11 cruise and took my own count of the ships in St. Thomas on Tuesday, according to current itineraries I could find. Tuesday's count is 5 and Wednesday's count is 6 ships in St. Thomas. I wonder how they figure it will help to switch the Zui to Wednesday????????? :rolleyes:

[gizmo]

The month of Dec is terrible for docking in St.Thomas.

If there are 6 ships, someone is going to Anchor.

H holds about 3. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

I don't remember how many can dock at CB. It might depend on the size of the ships but I do know it is no more than 2.

[MandyGirl]

Gizmo -

Spring Break 2003 there were 3 at Havensight and two anchored in the bay with tenders. One was S/S Norway which had no choice, but I believe the other was a HAL ship that day.

[superstein61]

Looks like my info in my original post was correct. Becky just posted on aother thread the following:

----------------

I just received a fax from HAL regarding the itinerary for the Zuiderdam beginnning with the July 31 cruise through Oct. 23, 2004.
Several of you had mentioned this but I don't think any one had a definate answer - so here it is straight from the horses mouth

Saturday, Sunday and Monday remain the same "NO CHANGE"

Tuesday is NOW Road Town - 7:00am till 6:00pm
Wednesday NOW St. Thomas - 7:00am till 6:00pm

Thursday friday and Saturday remain the same "NO CHANGE"
Read it and weep folks!

---------------------

Start filing your complaints now folks. This is just plain wrong. Pure bait and Switch advertising IMO

[MandyGirl]

HAL could contract with the Virgin Island ferries.

On our S/S Norway cruise (03/2003), which the Norway always had to anchor/tender, we boarded the ferry for St John directly from the ship. Paid $8 for roundtrip... from ship to Cruz Bay, and then one of the normal scheduled ferries from Cruz Bay back to Charlotte Amalie. Good deal considering CA-Cruz is $7 each way. Anyway, the ferry was a VI ferry that pulled up next to gangplank. Passengers purchased their ticket as an "excursion" ticket and met at 6:45 in a certain location. Made it soooo nice and easy! The passengers who were tendering just to St Thomas just used the little Norway tenders (held up to 400 pax each).

But this is always something HAL could consider. We boarded the ferry at 7A and were on St John by 7:45... and repeating our vows to one another on a beach at 9A.

I'd pay the full price RT ($14) to do that again directly from ship in bay to St John. But NCL certainly had a sweet deal at $8 pp RT.

And if needing to clear Immigration on St Thomas...
On our particular Norway cruise, we had to clear Immigration, so by purchasing the "shore excursion" for $8 ahead of time, that created the passenger manifest NCL could give authorities. We were taken to the immigration dock (NPS) that is next to the normal ferry dock, walked through Immigration showing our passport or Birth Cert, then out to the taxis. Very, very quick and easy. Passenger still on the ship going to St Thomas still had to clear Immigration on board before starting to board tenders to St Thomas. We got the best deal by far.

Makes sense if you think about it.

[srpilo]

Superstein61

:( :( :( :(

Srpilo

[Florida Lady]

I received a call from my TA this morning confirming the change of port days for the August 14, 2004 sailing of the Zuiderdam. She had just received a call from HAL. It is interesting that as of July 18, 2004 at 2:30PM, HAL was still telling me that there was no change. The left foot is going in a different direction from the right foot.

[dexter]

I just received an email from icruise.com informing me of the itinerary change. We leave St. Thomas at 6pm instead of 12mid. I don't like it, but what can I do? Nothing. They tell you from the beginning that they reserve the right to change ports or schedules. I'm not sure if we wanted to spend time in St. Thomas after dark anyway and that still gives us plenty of time to get back from St John.

[MandyGirl]

I just received a reply from HAL internet department supervisor, and this is what he stated:

"There may be some miscommunication about the hours in port for St. Thomas on
your sailing. You mention in your message missing a sunset, dinner on land,
etc. which suggests you have been advised that the port hours are in the
afternoon at some time --? Would you kindly clarify what you were given and
by whom? My most up to date information, which I verified with a couple of
departments who usually get all the updated changes when needed, show a port
time in St. Thomas of 8:00 a.m. to 11: 00 p.m. Our original departure time
of 12:00 midnight has been scaled back one hour -- that has been the only
change to my knowledge -- likely due to the accommodate for the need to
leave the pier well before midnight in order to avoid being charged a pier
fee for the subsequent calendar day which begins at midnight. "

I replied, sharing that various posters here receive different information from different groups via phone/fax/email, and sometimes the internet shows a discrepancy. I also shared a few of the threads here so he can view them.

So, from his perspective, it looks like my Nov 20 Zuiderdam itinerary is as I booked it in June (8A-11P). But as we have seen from other posters here on CC, each department may relay different information for the exact same cruise, and some may say through the end of the year while others say through Oct 23 and again while others say no change at all on any cruise. I really hope this person from HAL is correct and can do something to help clarify on HAL's website (when you click on itineraries). I am pleased to receive a reply. :)

[dexter]

If what your HAL contact said is true then why would my TA tell me different. This is really confusing and all HAL would have to do is change it on their website if the change is indeed true. So, until they change it I will believe that we will be in St. Thomas until 11pm.

[FloridaGram]

I can tell you a possibility that really could stink.... we had a tour booked in May in the afternoon and could not even get to St John because of rough seas. And we didn't find out until we were out to the boat dock on some dreary part of the island I had never been to. No one bothered to tell us the destination had changed and when some people on the tour found out they wouldn't go, causing them to cancel the whole tour. (HAL knew at the dock because the morning tour changed.) Our entire day in St Thomas was ruined and we got a crappy bottle of wine that we will never drink for our trouble. We would have gone back to Magens Bay to at least have a day at the beach if we had known.

SO if the worse thing that happens is you leave early at least you got to go there!

An observation..our balcony was overlooking the dock in St Thomas and there were only about 4 people that boarded after 9 PM when we started watching. (We stayed until 11) It could be they changed it for lack of interest in staying late. Sorry that upsets your plans but HAL may be making a business decision based on what most passengers do.

This all reminded me of the worst cruise day I have had in 7 cruises and they didn't care much about my satisfaction so don't expect much.

[Esme]

OK - here's the reason for the change - this was e-mailed to me by a friend who works at HAL's Head Office:

Our "old" itinerary was arriving Tuesday in St Thomas, from 8 AM - 11 PM,
Wednesday Tortola from 8 AM till 6 PM.

Due to dredging operations in St Thomas harbor the itinerary was changed
temporarily to Tuesdays Tortola, from 8 AM till 6PM, and Wednesday St Thomas from 8 AM till 6 PM. Otherwise we would not have a berth in St Thomas. This revised schedule worked out a lot better, as the Zuiderdam would be the only ship in Tortola and the only ship in St Thomas. While in the "old" schedule they would be in Tortola and in St Thomas with other mega ships, and encounter all the headaches, congestion, tour problems etc. The Zuiderdam will be on this revised schedule until the end of October.

Most people do not want to stay in St. Thomas after dark as it is crime ridden.

Some of the positives for changing St. Thomas to Wednesday when Zuiderdam would be the only ship in port are:

Less Crowding in port – nice and quiet in the port area with less traffic to and from town.

More tour space available as the mega ships would not be there.

The dock is empty except for Zuiderdam so there is lots of space to maneuver the tour groups on the pier. If they were there on Tuesday they would either have to dock at Crowne Bay, which no one likes, or tender into downtown and there is no shade or places for guests to sit and wait for the tenders.

In Tortola we would be the only ship docked on Tuesday meaning again all the same as above.

Hope this answers all your questions.

[superstein61]

Esme - thanks for the info. I am not doubting your source - but here is what I take exception with:



Due to dredging operations in St Thomas harbor the itinerary was changed
temporarily to Tuesdays Tortola, from 8 AM till 6PM, and Wednesday St Thomas from 8 AM till 6 PM.

This "dredging" wasn't something somoen on St Thomas just decided to do. HAL had to know of this before - So why has HAL sold their cruise under false pretenses?



Otherwise we would not have a berth in St Thomas.

This is a lie. There is more than just the Havensight dock in St Thomas. In the winter - sometimes there are 8 ships calling on St Thomas. There would only be 4 now if the Z stayed with the advertised schedule


This revised schedule worked out a lot better, as the Zuiderdam would be the only ship in Tortola and the only ship in St Thomas. While in the "old" schedule they would be in Tortola and in St Thomas with other mega ships, and encounter all the headaches, congestion, tour problems etc.

From a crowding problem in St Thomas - perhaps - but I have been in St Thomas with at least 3 ships there and didn't notice excess crowds. I belive in Tortola - the Z would be the only ship either day - so no change there


Most people do not want to stay in St. Thomas after dark as it is crime ridden.

UTTER HAL BS. Why advertise and sell a cruise that has a 11pm St Thomas departure time if "most people do not want to stay there" HAL is just trying to cover their collective backsides here

Some of the positives for changing St. Thomas to Wednesday when Zuiderdam would be.

The one and only positive is being the only ship in St Thomas - but funny how they neglected to point out the negatives of the change.

HAL HAS DONE AN EXTREMELY POOR JOB WITH THIS. I WOULD CONTINUE TO COMPLAIN AND TELL HAL TO DLEIVER WHAT YOU PAID FOR

[MandyGirl]

All -

I received this communication from HAL. I had replied to Jim Wednesday afternoon, including a few links to these CC threads here showing discrepancies in information coming from various departments. I must say that I am very pleased with Jim replying and looking into this - this is what HAL is known for in customer service! :) He had shared in his previous email that he had worked onboard for a time, so it is insightful he has that 'front line customer service' experience. The email below may not answer "why" the change in itinerary, but we've learned what Esme shared (dredging). However, it at least lets us know which Zuiderdam cruises are affected. Also, I think there is a big difference in the number of ships in port prior to October versus after October (after ships have repositioned to Caribbean for the winter) - so when some posters are saying 'only one ship in port' that would most likely be prior to mid-October (I had researched my own cruise for Thanksgiving and St Thomas has at least 2 other ships in port each day in question).

Here was Jim's reply:



From: "Picicci, Jim (HAL)"
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Holland America cruise to St. Thomas


> Hello again, and thank you for waiting for a further response.
> I appreciate the links to cruisecritic.com so I can see what has been
> happening and the frustration for booked passengers, which we certainly do
> not want. I also got your other message showing the specific response that
> someone here at Holland America had sent, stating the St. Thomas port change
> time would be lasting through the rest of the year 2004.
>
> Here is the absolute latest information, directly from our Marketing
> department's itinerary planning manager. (It is not going to get confused
> coming directly from the person in charge!!)
>
> St. Thomas and Tortola's days in port were indeed swapped around for Eastern
> Caribbean itineraries from the July 3 sailing through the October 23
> sailing. For these sailings only, this change was to provide what we felt
> was a more enhanced visit to St. Thomas; the reason being, the change of day
> allows us to berth at the cruiseship terminal, as opposed to the cargo dock.
> Since Tortola and St. Thomas are virtually in the same area, it is still
> necessary to depart St. Thomas at 6 p.m. (the same time the departure hour
> was from Tortola before the swap) to stay oncourse for the return to Fort
> Lauderdale.
>
> For Zuiderdam cruises (such as yours) operating from October 30 through
> December 11, St. Thomas remains the port on Tuesday followed by Tortola on
> Wednesday. The port hours for St. Thomas are 8 a.m. to 11 p.m.
>
> I will endeavor to make sure all reservations agents and supervisors in the
> Reservations Department are aware of this information. I apologize for the
> confusing and differing information you and others on the message board have
> received. I hope this has been of assistance.
>
> Our intent is to provide an overall better service when an itinerary/port
> hour change is made, but I realize that as a result enhancement of passenger
> satisfaction in one area may mean disappointment in another. It is literally
> not possible to make a 100% pleasing itinerary for over 1,000 guests onboard
> the ship as I am sure you can agree. Any changes are therefore based on
> where the best overall satisfaction will hopefully be found, based on our
> past experience, and we hope those inconvenienced will make adjustment based
> on the understanding that itineraries are subject to modification.
>
> Thank you for bringing this important topic to my attention and I hope to
> have helped straighten out confusion and difficulty, and to at least provide
> explanation for those disappointed in the shortened port hours of St. Thomas
> for those cruises affected.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jim Picicci
> Internet Department Supervisor
> Holland America Line

[Nebraska Admiral]

I have been surfing the various ta's web sites and found that Travelocity's listings for HAL's eastern cariabean has been changes to reflect the new intenary Other sites do not show this. Maybe part of the blame should be placed on the ta's who have not updated their web site.
Dick

[MandyGirl]

Nebraska - I believe most people were referring to HollandAmerica.com to see what was real or not for itinerary changes, since we knew the TAs can be a little late in updating their websites.

[MandyGirl]

For example...

I just checked Sept 23 (2004) Zuiderdam eastern Caribbean on hollandamerica.com and it shows this:

0 Ft. Lauderdale, Florida (http://www.hollandamerica.com/dest/port.do?portCode=FLL&dest=020000) 5:00 pm 1 Half Moon Cay, Bahamas (http://www.hollandamerica.com/dest/port.do?portCode=HA1&dest=020000)1 8:00 am 4:00 pm 2 At Sea 3 St. Thomas, U.S. V.I. (http://www.hollandamerica.com/dest/port.do?portCode=STT&dest=020000) 8:00 am 11:00 pm 4 Road Town, Tortola (http://www.hollandamerica.com/dest/port.do?portCode=RT1&dest=020000) 7:00 am 6:00 pm 5 At Sea 6 Nassau, Bahamas (http://www.hollandamerica.com/dest/port.do?portCode=NAS&dest=020000) 1:00 pm 8:00 pm 7 Ft. Lauderdale, Florida (http://www.hollandamerica.com/dest/port.do?portCode=FLL&dest=020000) 8:00 am
I assume they are still working to reflect the port changes on their own website.

[superstein61]

Mandy

Would you mind sharing Jim's email address with me? I would like to contact him directly as no one from HAL is returning my emails now

Thanks

[MandyGirl]

Sure! His title is Internet Department Supervisor. JPicicci@HollandAmerica.com (JPicicci@HollandAmerica.com) He seems to be a really nice guy! I think my email had trickled it's way to him.

[KAKcruiser]

Does anyone know what the truth is about immigration in St. Thomas? Would we still have to go through immigration if we went to St. Thomas right after Half Moon Cay?

[superstein61]

Mandy - thank you

[Spot]

I believe the date is September 25th - October 2 for this eastern itinerary

[peaches from georgia]

Does anyone know what the truth is about immigration in St. Thomas? Would we still have to go through immigration if we went to St. Thomas right after Half Moon Cay?

All you have to remember no matter where you are traveling is that you have to go through U.S. immigration when entering the U.S. or any of its territories from a foreign country. That's the law.

Therefore, you would have to go through immigration when entering St. Thomas from Half Moon Cay. St. Thomas is a U.S. Territory and Half Moon Cay is in the Bahamas. On a Western Carib cruise if you go from FLL to Cozumel and then to Key West and back to FLL you go through immigration in KW and not in FLL. Key West is your first entry into the U.S, after having been in a foreign country, Mexico.

[Chadzbrew]

Seems like the whole "Bait and Switch" worked for 2004 as this is what they are doing for summer 2005 as well. It seems as though this is how HAL operates. I plan on rebooking with a company with integrity!