HAL sued by crew member

[helenp2]

[url]www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...2-Oc42f45fd2c9[/url

[bepsf]

Helen--

Can you please repost?
You link doesn't work and I cannot find the article...

[PatsyAnne]

Helen--

Can you please repost?
You link doesn't work and I cannot find the article...
I found one on another source.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/313849_seaman01.html

[u4ea]

Here's the original I found.
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=182c30a7-9618-43bf-b642-0c42f45fd2c9

Sounds bitter.:(
Mark...

[jhannah]

Too bad. Get ready. The "Oh, those poor, poor HAL slaves" cry is forthcoming.

[tomc]

Well, if it's true...

[bepsf]

Too bad. Get ready. The "Oh, those poor, poor HAL slaves" cry is forthcoming.

Jim--

If this is indeed the case, I certainly side with the crewmembers.

I get re-imbursed for all travel I am required to do for my work. In addition, all my relocation expenses for when I was in the Military was paid for.

Unless the allegations are completely untrue, I don't see that HAL has a leg to stand on.

[fcorey]

Brian, it all depends on the wording of the contract. Here I would also tend to side with crew members because HAL is in a good position to negotiate with airlines and get better rates/fares. Taking care of your employees in the longterm will reap the benefit of better performance and less turnover. I hope that this turns out to be a case of a disgruntled employee, but if its not.... All the more reason for us to treat these individuals with the respect and courtesy they deserve. Nothing ticks me off aboard more than seeing someone mistreat the staff.

[Odd Ball]

I don't know the details of the class action suite. So what is exactly true, is not know to me personally. It will all come out at some point.

This is what I have been told my crew memebers. The crew does have to pay their own airfare, when in the past they did not. I was told by more than 1 crew memeber they have to give Hal the money for their plane fare.

I just happened to be on a ship during the time frame of the changes Hal was making, which included the "you have to pay your own airfare now" policy. It was RUMORED, MANY of the crew on my particular cruise were leaving because of the changes and the airfare issue was one of the main complaints.

[tomc]

I had heard fairly recently (within, let's say, the last year or so), that the crew used to get their flights at the start and end of their contracts, but this had been terminated and there was much unhappiness. I don't remember if I read it here, or if someone onboard mentioned it. But I got to thinking that since cruise lines are the largest single purchaser of bulk plane tix, there must be some financial arrangements going on and the lines are paying far less than sticker.

However, we are hearing only the plaintiff's lawyer speaking. There usually being two sides to issues, we would be well-advised to find the other.

Odd Ball -- You posted while I was composing, giving some of the answers I was looking for. The complaining crew member seems to be indicating he was told one thing and then another. ?? It will all come out.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

It seems we heard something about this well over a year ago maybe 2 years ago right here on this board. A large corporation like HAL certainly had their legal department on this issue long before they even initiated this. I would also guess that all crew signed an agreement to this and or a new contract. I am not siding either way but I find it hard to believe that HAL would not have crossed all their t's and dotted all their i's before doing this so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[bepsf]

It seems we heard something about this well over a year ago maybe 2 years ago right here on this board. A large corporation like HAL certainly had their legal department on this issue long before they even initiated this. I would also guess that all crew signed an agreement to this and or a new contract. I am not siding either way but I find it hard to believe that HAL would not have crossed all their t's and dotted all their i's before doing this so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Just because the Legal Department signed off on it doesn't make it right or ethical.

I'm betting that Stein, Micky and CCL Boardmembers get their airfare compensated for them (and don't have to pay for their meals while aboard ship...)
:cool:

[Krazy Kruizers]

This was brought up a couple of years.

Hope we hear what happens - even if it does take years to straighten out.

[RuthC]

Is anyone else remembering what I think I am? :confused:

It was my understanding that once upon a time HAL paid for uniforms and transportation to/from the ship and crew received whatever they received under "tipping not required". Time passed and a new contract was signed. Under the new terms tipping became required, and in exchange crew became responsible for uniforms and transportation.
HAL, apparently, would up-front the travel money, but was to be reimbursed for that expense. After all, potential crew might not have the money needed to accept the job (understandably).

The terms of the contract were agreed to by all parties.

If what I remember is correct (regardless of whether or not I like the terms of the contract), then what is the basis of the suit?

[tomc]

If what I remember is correct, then what is the basis of the suit? 33 percent?

[u4ea]

On the other hand, HAL has been know to be pretty "wormy"
Mark...

A lawyer finds out he has an inoperable brain tumor. It's so large, they have to do a brain transplant. His doctor gives him a choice of available brains. There's a jar of rocket scientist brains for $10 an ounce, a jar of regular scientist brains for $15 an ounce, and a jar of lawyer brains for the sum of $800 an ounce. The outraged lawyer says, "This is a ripoff! How come the lawyer brains are so damned expensive?" The doctor replies, "Do you know how many lawyers it takes to get an ounce of brains?"

[Nancyquilts]

Where on earth would they fly members of the crew for over $2000, especially when one expects that HAL would get bulk tickets. Or maybe they're flying them to the ship by first class? Nancy

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Just because the Legal Department signed off on it doesn't make it right or ethical.

I'm betting that Stein, Micky and CCL Boardmembers get their airfare compensated for them (and don't have to pay for their meals while aboard ship...)
:cool:


Brian I did not say I agreed or disagreed I just stated that I am sure their legal department was advised before they made the changes they made. I do not have enough facts from both sides to make that kind of judgement. We also do not know how their salary increased with giving them the additional tips. I frankly do not think we have enough facts to make a judgement either way. I am also guessing that many have renewed their contract and returned since this started 2 years ago and that if it was that bad they would not have returned.

[Chivalrygirl]

On the other hand, HAL has been know to be pretty "wormy"
Mark...

A lawyer finds out he has an inoperable brain tumor. It's so large, they have to do a brain transplant. His doctor gives him a choice of available brains. There's a jar of rocket scientist brains for $10 an ounce, a jar of regular scientist brains for $15 an ounce, and a jar of lawyer brains for the sum of $800 an ounce. The outraged lawyer says, "This is a ripoff! How come the lawyer brains are so damned expensive?" The doctor replies, "Do you know how many lawyers it takes to get an ounce of brains?"

Good one :-)

I must follow this class action up with my Filipino friend. She did tell me that of the 15% gratuity charged they only personally got their share of about 10%. I know for a fact that she did try to stay in port for a couple of nights with a very close friend but HAL would not allow, she had to fly out that same day with the rest of the crew to Manila. She was quite upset about that, officers are allowed but not crew, her words, class discrimination!

[dakrewser]

Are we supposed to believe that this person didn't know he was supposed to re-pay the airfare? No, because that's not what's being claimed. So he knew about it, but just stopped paying his part of the bargain. Doesn't sound like there's any claim there at all.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Where on earth would they fly members of the crew for over $2000, especially when one expects that HAL would get bulk tickets. Or maybe they're flying them to the ship by first class? Nancy


I just did a seach of flights from Manila to Seattle as an example giving it a 2 week window. The cost for a 1 way ticket ran from $827 to $3655. I am not sure if when they do it if it is round trip or 1 way. We also do not know the time frame of advance notice they have. Since they work for almost a full year and sometimes extended the date of their return my guess is they only purchase them a 1 way ticket but may collect for a round trip so they do have funds to send them home on holiday.

[earl_m]

I am sure that this suit will go on for many years and it will cost a lot of money. I am sure this cruisemember doesn`t have the funds for a long and drag out fight.

[jtl513]

Unfortunately, in this world we don't get what we deserve, we get what we negotiate. :(

[RuthC]

33 percent?

I am sure that this suit will go on for many years and it will cost a lot of money. I am sure this cruisemember doesn`t have the funds for a long and drag out fight.
The crewmember doesn't need the funds for a long, dragged out fight. He needs a lawyer who is ready and willing to take the case on speculation, er, retainer. :rolleyes:
Which, last I heard, was up to 40%. :eek:

[hammybee]

Based on this brief report, it seems to me that Romeo may have been surprised that his airfare cost him 1/3 of his earnings, more so than that he agreed to pay for his airfare, when he signed his contract.

Perhaps Romeo's local recruiter created the perception that he would earn more than he did ( Who remembers Private Benajim, when the army recruiter told the Goldie Hawn character that the barracks were just like condos?).

Perhaps Romeo is not a good waiter. Perhaps we are not tipping enough. Perhaps HAL is using its own air arrangements instead of something less costly. Perhaps the cost includes more than air fare. Are all onboard employees required to pay their airfare, or just some? Who knows? Customers and employees sue corporations all the time.

[RedmondCruiser]

Something does not add up here. On Expedia you can get round trip from Manila for $1299. HAL gets bulk rates from the airlines so what they end up paying would be a complete mystery, but it should be lower than the $1299. Then to charge $2119 for the flight would appear to provide HAL with a profit on the exchange. It may be legal but it does not smell right.

[bepsf]

Brian I did not say I agreed or disagreed I just stated that I am sure their legal department was advised before they made the changes they made.

Lisa--

I'm sorry - I didn't mean to indicate how you felt either way.

I just know from experience that some of the legal-beagles I deal with make some pretty harebrained judgements on things which they know little to nothing about...

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Something does not add up here. On Expedia you can get round trip from Manila for $1299. HAL gets bulk rates from the airlines so what they end up paying would be a complete mystery, but it should be lower than the $1299. Then to charge $2119 for the flight would appear to provide HAL with a profit on the exchange. It may be legal but it does not smell right.

If you price it as a one way ticket you will find the price to be a lot more. I am sure with their contract and not knowing an exact date for their return home that they only purchase the tickets as one way. Which then it runs a lot closer to the $2000 plus I am sure there is hotel expense of getting the crew member to the city they board the ship at a day in adnvance.

[peaches from georgia]

I think we're wasting a lot of time on concocting scenarios of legalities, contracts, travel expenses, etc. that we know absolutely nothing about.

I do remember as one poster said that at the time that the crews contracts changed many of them were very upset about having to pay for their own travel and uniforms now.

[whogo]

What is Romeo's beef? $442 per month, 12 hours per day. In a 30 day month he makes $1.23/hour plus tips! ($442/month)/(12 hrs day)*(30 days).

He can bring that up to $2.00 per hour by selling just $5.13 per hour.
He can bring that up to $3.00 per hour by selling just $11.80 per hour.
He can bring that up to $4.00 per hour by selling just $18.47 per hour.
He can bring that up to $5.00 per hour by selling just $25.14 per hour.
He can bring that up to $100.00 per hour by selling just $658.47 per hour.

This assumes, of course, that he gets to keep the entire 15% gratuity. The airfare deduction is only $.59 per hour, which gives him a base pay of almost $.62 per hour. He only has to sell an additional $3.94 per hour to make up for the airfare.

Romeo sounds like a whiny work shirker.

[Philip217]

Chivalrygirl,
You need to get your facts right before posting accusations.

Any crewmember who signs off a cruise ship in the USA, who is not a US Citizen, enters the USA on a C1-D Employment visa. This is not a tourist visa. Since the crewmember is not a tourist, he/she is required by US Immigration to depart the USA within 24 hours after leaving the ship. If he/does not depart the USA within 24 hours, there is a substantial fine for the crewmember and the cruise line ($20,000).
On extremely rare occasions, senior officers are allowed to sign off a ship and enter the USA on a Tourist Visa. But this is at the discretion of the local US Immigration Supervisor.

[smeyer418]

No one really knows the facts of the case yet. All you have is allegations and speculation. I am sure the employment contract says what law applies and where the lawsuits must take place. When NCL's Norway had a boiler that exploded, some of the crew and the crew's surviving family started a class action in Miami. The lawsuit was dismissed as not in accordance with the employment contract(and the explosion took place in an US Harbor while at the dock). Many employees must pay their way to their first duty station, that is significantly different than people flying once they are working. Sure the purpose of the press release by the lawyers for the pliantiff's was to get some publicity and it seems that worked. I'll await further devopments before I decide to take sides(although my sympathy is with the employee)

[Navy_Chief]

I doubt I would agree to go out on a contract if I had to pay my way to get there. If the crewman knew what would be required when signing his/her contract, that's that. Of course, we're all just speculating :rolleyes:

[Opinions]

Are we supposed to believe that this person didn't know he was supposed to re-pay the airfare? No, because that's not what's being claimed. So he knew about it, but just stopped paying his part of the bargain. Doesn't sound like there's any claim there at all.

Let's wait until the court decides...If the "bargain" was illegal then they certainly have a claim even if they agreed to it.

[hawgwildterry]

Here is the link to the complaint filed in US District Court, Western Washington, Seattle. Access to the actual complaint is restricted to members of PACER. Basically you must be an attorney or at least work in a law firm to gain access to the complaint online if I understand the rules.

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-wawdce/case_no-2:2007cv00645/case_id-143294/

Terry

[kryos]

It was my understanding that once upon a time HAL paid for uniforms and transportation to/from the ship and crew received whatever they received under "tipping not required". Time passed and a new contract was signed. Under the new terms tipping became required, and in exchange crew became responsible for uniforms and transportation.
That's the same story I heard. In fact, I heard it was ONLY those crew members who generally received tips ... such as waiters, cabin stewards, bar staff, etc., that were now required to pay for their own airfare and uniforms. The reason for this, at least from what I was told, is that those employees are making among the highest wages on the ship (as they should be since they probably put in the largest number of hours each day) ... what with their share of the auto-tip pool, plus cash tips they receive from passengers. So, the line felt that it was only fair to require them to pay for their own uniforms and airfare.

Other onboard staff who do not generally get compensated in tips ... cruise staff, CLUB HAL people, engine department, etc. ... their airfare is paid for by HAL and I think even their uniforms are provided without cost to them.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Here is the link to the complaint filed in US District Court, Western Washington, Seattle. Access to the actual complaint is restricted to members of PACER. Basically you must be an attorney or at least work in a law firm to gain access to the complaint online if I understand the rules.

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-wawdce/case_no-2:2007cv00645/case_id-143294/

Terry

Terry, I have access to PACER, let me see if I can pull it up.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

OK, I am signed in what does anyone want to know?:D

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I do not want to pull up too much because for each page I inquiry we get charged and my company might want to know why I am accessing a law suit against Holland America and not pulling up Bankruptcy filings:eek:

[hawgwildterry]

Lisa,

I work at that courthouse and have access to the filing as a matter of public record. If I need to know the particulars I will look it up on the computer. At this point.........yawn.

Terry

[Toad]

I was just wonder if anyone posting would work for the same wages, the same deal? Would you let your kids?

[hammybee]

I was just wonder if anyone posting would work for the same wages, the same deal? Would you let your kids?

The entire industry is based upon the employment of second-third world people who view the job as an opportunity they might not otherwise have.
None are forced to work on a cruise ship.

The business as we know it, is not sustainable if the cruise lines had to pay U.S. wages and employment taxes.

If those same people had been born elsewhere they too might have more opportunities than they do. Life is not fair.:(

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Lisa,

I work at that courthouse and have access to the filing as a matter of public record. If I need to know the particulars I will look it up on the computer. At this point.........yawn.

Terry

Terry, I agree when I pulled up PACER there really was nothing there. I am sure once the case gets going there will be more information but right now nothing.

[Kathyh1313]

My DH formerly worked for several cruise lines and this is his take on the situation. For the first contract, the new crew member purchases/pays for his ticket to the port of embarkation. The ticket must be an unrestricted open jawed fare. This means that there is no return date specified.

As crew are not generally US citizens the cruise line is required to have a plane ticket to the crewman's home country. When the crew member goes home for a vacation AND the cruise line intends to re-up their contract, the crew member is given a plane ticket to return.

So as some have said, I pay to relocate to my new job and then I may be reimbursed for travel expenses. If you have a "high end" job, then you may be paid to relocate. Most of us poor "schmucks" pay to relocate ourselves.

And as to why crew can't "visit" with friends in the states, that too is immigration law. Crew are on a C1-D1 transit visa to only move through the US on transit to their home country. These visas do not allow for visits. Some crew members apply for and receive visitors visas and do visit friends in the US. Those crew the US immigration deems to be low risk for overstay may get a visa, thus again the high end jobs, staff vs crew, are not considered risk to overstay. General crew members from "poor" countries may not be issued a Visa as they are considered a risk to overstay. (ie become an illegal alien).

This is not an opinion one way or another of the current situation, it is just an attempt to relay some personal experience that may or may not be pertinent.

What I do find interesting is that the salary basis is the crew members minimum without tip. The bulk of a crew's money comes from tip.

[SakeDad]

Does anyone know what the other cruise lines do? Is HAL simply going to what everyone else already does or are they doing something new?

[Chivalrygirl]

I have just received an email from my friend who is home on shore leave and this is what she has told me.


"Well about the Canada.com, it used to be that way yes we have to re imburse all expenses like air fare, meals, uniform to and from our point of origin but they change the plan last Dec. 2006. But if the gentleman filed it before that which he did he is still covered by it. It will be a big issue with Holland America, I just hope it will not create a major set back to us."

and then she went on to comment about our forth coming trip to the US. and our planned cruise which I would like to share with you all.

" Regarding your forthcoming trip... I wish you a wonderful time... don't worry about those dam dollars... he!he!he! as you say will not be able to bring it when you go... ha!ha!ha! might as well spend it while your able to..."

The comments of one beautiful and talented young Filipino woman who we have grown to adore and admire her attitude to what we consider an extremely difficult life.

Maybe this puts some clarification on this particular crew matter.

[Chivalrygirl]

Chivalrygirl,
You need to get your facts right before posting accusations.

Any crewmember who signs off a cruise ship in the USA, who is not a US Citizen, enters the USA on a C1-D Employment visa. This is not a tourist visa. Since the crewmember is not a tourist, he/she is required by US Immigration to depart the USA within 24 hours after leaving the ship. If he/does not depart the USA within 24 hours, there is a substantial fine for the crewmember and the cruise line ($20,000).
On extremely rare occasions, senior officers are allowed to sign off a ship and enter the USA on a Tourist Visa. But this is at the discretion of the local US Immigration Supervisor.


Ah yes, but did I say she signed off the ship in the US????????
So you have jumped way too far my friend

[sungoddess]

Okay, I have to put in my two cents....yes, crew members have to pay their own way now, and they didn't in the past. This is because with the prepaid gratuities, the crew are making more $ than they did in the past. I was the Purser onboard HAL for a few contracts and I know exactly how much these guys make.

I am not saying I agree with HAL; I do not think they should have started making the crew pay their own way. The officers don't have to pay their way and Staff Officers are flown BUSINESS class. But, the crew members are making much more money than you are led to believe. Please trust me, I did crew payroll onboard for quite a while.

[Chivalrygirl]

Okay, I have to put in my two cents....yes, crew members have to pay their own way now, and they didn't in the past. This is because with the prepaid gratuities, the crew are making more $ than they did in the past. I was the Purser onboard HAL for a few contracts and I know exactly how much these guys make.

I am not saying I agree with HAL; I do not think they should have started making the crew pay their own way. The officers don't have to pay their way and Staff Officers are flown BUSINESS class. But, the crew members are making much more money than you are led to believe. Please trust me, I did crew payroll onboard for quite a while.

Yes but there you go, you obviously did not read what my contact emailed to me today. They no longer pay their own fares, uniforms or meals. Actually it never ever entered my head that they had to pay for their own meals or airfares, it has left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't think I will step my little feet on board a HAL vessel in the near future.
So I am not exactly sure where you are coming from. Also, I don't totally believe what you have just stated.

[kryos]

And as to why crew can't "visit" with friends in the states, that too is immigration law. Crew are on a C1-D1 transit visa to only move through the US on transit to their home country. These visas do not allow for visits. Some crew members apply for and receive visitors visas and do visit friends in the US.
I was told this same thing by a lady who worked in the Ocean Bar during my Veendam cruise. I asked her if she was getting off the ship at the port the next day ... I believe it was Rome. She said no because it wasn't worth it to her to pay for a Visa just to visit that country. She said because of her nationality, she could not get off the ship in port without having such a Visa. Since Rome ... or whatever the port was ... was just a one-day visit, it simply wasn't worth it to her to go to the expense of getting a Visa just so that she could get off the ship. She said she was planning to put her time to more productive use ... as in doing her laundry.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Chivalrygirl]

Some of this makes interesting reading when you view it from outside the US. YOu might be interested to know that although it has taken awhile your tourist numbers to the US are now dramatically down. For a lot of folk it is just not worth the hassle. Believe me, its not the nicest experience one can go through.

[mamaofami]

Some of this just doesn't make sense to me. I recall when I first incurred the mandatory tipping and was told it was to make sure the crew members all made enough and the same amount of dollars since some people tipped and others didn't. There was speculation on board that this method would result in HAL paying the crew less. In essence, this is what actually happened if they now have to pay their own airfare, whether it's in the contract or not.

So, here we have these hard working people who serve us with a smile, and who in fact make our cruise memorable, and in fact, they really aren't making more money.

I would love to know the specifics of what they really do earn. I know it's a good opportunity for them to work on HAL, but has this auto tip policy really benefited the crew or HAL?

[serendipity1499]

thought better of it!

[Dolphins]

My experience with HAL has been that they don't treat their Filipino crew as well as their Indonesian crew. Unless things have changed recently, only Indonesians were allowed to serve in the dining rooms and Filipinos were relegated to deck work, cabin stewards and bars. I never felt this was right as some of the best waiters we have experienced on other cruise lines were from the Philippines.

[Wouter]

Okay, I have to put in my two cents....yes, crew members have to pay their own way now, and they didn't in the past. This is because with the prepaid gratuities, the crew are making more $ than they did in the past. I was the Purser onboard HAL for a few contracts and I know exactly how much these guys make.

I don't think you are talking about all the crew now. A girl in the front office for example had a set back of $200,- a month. Same as crew in the Engineroom and the Sailors. You know as well that they don't get paid really much...

So mamaofami the answer on your question is no. Not ALL of the crew have benefits from the autotip system.

[serendipity1499]

My experience with HAL has been that they don't treat their Filipino crew as well as their Indonesian crew. Unless things have changed recently, only Indonesians were allowed to serve in the dining rooms and Filipinos were relegated to deck work, cabin stewards and bars. I never felt this was right as some of the best waiters we have experienced on other cruise lines were from the Philippines.

I really don't believe that HAL treats their Filipino crew any differently than their Indonesian Crew.. I have never seen a Filipino Cabin Steward..All of our Cabin Stewards have been Indonesian..You forgot to mention the front desk is manned by Filipino Crew which is a great job for them.. During the early days HAL's crew was made up mostly of Indonesians...

I believe the Dutch are imbued in the Indonesian culture more than they are in the Filipino Culture..Indonesia was part of the Dutch East Indies from the 1600's through the WW11 & only gained their Independence in 1945..

It is my understanding that Hal has Training schools both in Indonesia & in the Phillipines..Understand each school specializes in the Job training their crew is hired to do.. I would think it would be less expensive that way rather than to cross train..If I'm wrong about this, hopefully someone in the know will correct me..

Also believe both the Filipino & Indonesian Crew would prefer having their jobs seperated..It amazes me that on every HAL ship there are 30-40 different Nationalities & Religions & they all work so well together!:)

The only reason we go to all the disembarkation talks, is to see the crew (all Nationalities) bid us farewell..It always brings tears to my eyes..

JMHO..:) Betty

[helenp2]

My experience with HAL has been that they don't treat their Filipino crew as well as their Indonesian crew. Unless things have changed recently, only Indonesians were allowed to serve in the dining rooms and Filipinos were relegated to deck work, cabin stewards and bars. I never felt this was right as some of the best waiters we have experienced on other cruise lines were from the Philippines.


Inasmuch as most Indonesians are muslim, they are not permitted to serve alchaol. Therefore, 99% for the people serving drinks whether on the pool deck, dining room, or lido are generally Filipino. I personally have never had a Filipino cabin steward on HAL. Our last Captain in the Dining Room was an Indonesian who happend to be Hindu and our cabin steward was a Indonesian who was a Christian. As was expained to me by a HAL officer, when employees are recruited in Indonesia they are given a choice of Housekeeping (cabin steward) or Dining. Most seem to prefer Housekeeping due to the fact that they earn more money in tips for the course of the cruise. As far as the 15% tip that is added on to every drink ordered is concerned, I was told that the money actually goes to the Bartender who made the drink, be it Lido Bar, Crows Nest, etc. After he or she receives that 15% I would assume whoever worked that shift would share in some of the money. All of this is strictly heresay.

BTW, your feelings that Filipinos were not treated fairly by HAL is especially
true of the Indonesians. They have done an outstanding job for yrs & yrs in serving meals to guests on HAL. So, what does HAL do when they opened the Pinnacle Grille - bring in Eastern Europeans instead of the Indonesians who have proven themselves over and over. Do you think maybe they were insulted? Trust me, they were. Do you think maybe they were insulted when they were replaced by Eastern Europeans in the Explorers Lounge during afternoon tea???? Yes, they were. As one of them said to me, "we have done these jobs for yrs & now we must train our replacements".

[hammybee]

Also believe both the Filipino & Indonesian Crew would prefer have their jobs seperated..It amazes me that on every HAL ship there are 30-40 different Nationalities & Religions & they all work so well together!:)

JMHO..:) Betty
There are tremendous differences and biases within cultures and it may work better to separate dominate cultures, by responsibility, onboard a cruise ship.

I am thinking that job assignment is also determined somewhat with respect for culture. Most of the Indonesian crew are Muslim and may prefer not to be involved in the sale or serving of alcohol, or to work side by side with women, as peers. Of course by saying this I am making a generalization and it does not reflect individual differences or values.

[helenp2]

This was a new one on me. On the Noordam in April there were 2 Indonesian women working in housekeeping. I don't recall ever seeing Indonesian women on a cruise ship.

[Sea King]

just curious .. is it really necessary to mention that a crew person has sued HAL over a "wage or benefit issue":confused:

if a class action were filed by Pax regarding fares, unfair business actions or something that was pax-related, I can understand (and would even support) posting that information

but a suit filed by crew person?

what about a suit by an unhappy vendor?

IMHO, this "publicity" really isn't warranted or justified

[Lifinfastlane]

just curious .. is it really necessary to mention that a crew person has sued HAL over a "wage or benefit issue":confused:

if a class action were filed by Pax regarding fares, unfair business actions or something that was pax-related, I can understand (and would even support) posting that information

but a suit filed by crew person?

what about a suit by an unhappy vendor?

IMHO, this "publicity" really isn't warranted or justified

Absolutely, it is warranted and justified. I want to support a company that treats its employees fairly and with respect. I don't support sweatshops nor do I look the other way when people are exploited. Maybe some can ignore their fellow mans plight but not me. I used to work for some real idiot bosses and companies that would screw their employees and customers.

[Sea King]

I used to work for some real idiot bosses and companies that would screw their employees and customers.

sorry: that quote doesn't impress me and it certainly won't change what the facts of the case ultimately turn out to be, presuming a settlement is not reached.. which is precisely the point: someone has filed suit; a suit is an allegation, nothing more

it's a far cry from suit to "sweat shop" unless of course you're prepared to pass judgment without hearing anything else other than what 1 person (or class of persons) have to say

and that just isn't how the system works

[Odd Ball]

just curious .. is it really necessary to mention that a crew person has sued HAL over a "wage or benefit issue":confused:

if a class action were filed by Pax regarding fares, unfair business actions or something that was pax-related, I can understand (and would even support) posting that information

but a suit filed by crew person?

what about a suit by an unhappy vendor?

IMHO, this "publicity" really isn't warranted or justified

Yes, it is warranted and justified. It relateds to Holland America cruise line.

You don't have to read this thread if you don't agree.

In matter of fact this is more warranted than many posts on this board.

[Orcrone]

Sorry Sea King. I don't know if HAL is running a sweat shop or whether they're the most wonderful employer in history. Regardless, this is a cruise web board and I don't see why this would not be an appropriate topic to discuss.

On a seperate note the intended class action suit is not contending that they took advantage of this person. It's that the way the reimbrusement is structured violates labor laws. It could be that HAL has structured their system to the letter of the law or it may be interpreted that their method of repayment of travel expenses does indeed violate the law.

This will be interesting to watch.

[Odd Ball]

On a seperate note the intended class action suit is not contending that they took advantage of this person. It's that the way the reimbrusement is structured violates labor laws. It could be that HAL has structured their system to the letter of the law or it may be interpreted that their method of repayment of travel expenses does indeed violate the law.

This will be interesting to watch.

I agree that it will be very interesting to watch.

[flag fan]

What makes me think that this suit may have merit is the statement that the crew member gets his full pay check, but then is required after receiving it to give part of it back for the airfare. If the payment of the airfare is all determined by the terms of the contract, why doesn't the contract just provide that repayment will be deducted automatically from the wages? I wonder if such an arrangement is not permitted under Canadian labor laws and if those same laws bar the arrangements that have been made. The fact that Holland America lawyers have signed off on these arrangements just means that there is some legal theory that would justify them, it does not mean that they would stand up in court if challenged.

[serendipity1499]

Sea King...I agree with the others..I see nothing wrong with the OP's post & the discussion of this topic at all!

[Lifinfastlane]

sorry: that quote doesn't impress me and it certainly won't change what the facts of the case ultimately turn out to be, presuming a settlement is not reached.. which is precisely the point: someone has filed suit; a suit is an allegation, nothing more

it's a far cry from suit to "sweat shop" unless of course you're prepared to pass judgment without hearing anything else other than what 1 person (or class of persons) have to say

and that just isn't how the system works

I didn't say HAL was a sweatshop, just that I don't support them. I like to know what allegations are being made against companies, they may have a legitimate complaint. Let's not assume all businesses are run as honorably as Enron lol.

[tomc]

Lifinfastlane -- I used to work for some real idiot bosses and companies that would screw their employees. Hey - I work in broadcasting, too!

[Chivalrygirl]

Lifinfastlane -- Hey - I work in broadcasting, too!

What humour! Wash your mouth out young man :D

[tomc]

A new company took over a local tv station yesterday. Among others, they called in a 30-year excellent employee, told him he was done, gave him ten minutes to clean out his desk and get his @ out of the building. Not even a "thank you for 30 years of dedicated service." That's broadcasting.

[daveco58]

I used to work for some real idiot bosses and companies that would screw their employees and customers.

I have that same problem...but I am self-employed....who can I sue?

[Toad]

Since we are discussing Holland America, and this is HAL's board on this venue why would this be inappropriate? I must admit, I was a bit shocked to learn how little the employees mentioned above actually make per month, and wonder if it is true?!?!

[Dolphins]

I really don't believe that HAL treats their Filipino crew any differently than their Indonesian Crew.. I have never seen a Filipino Cabin Steward..All of our Cabin Stewards have been Indonesian..You forgot to mention the front desk is manned by Filipino Crew which is a great job for them.. During the early days HAL's crew was made up mostly of Indonesians...

I believe the Dutch are imbued in the Indonesian culture more than they are in the Filipino Culture..Indonesia was part of the Dutch East Indies from the 1600's through the WW11 & only gained their Independence in 1945..

It is my understanding that Hal has Training schools both in Indonesia & in the Phillipines..Understand each school specializes in the Job training their crew is hired to do.. I would think it would be less expensive that way rather than to cross train..If I'm wrong about this, hopefully someone in the know will correct me..

Also believe both the Filipino & Indonesian Crew would prefer having their jobs seperated..It amazes me that on every HAL ship there are 30-40 different Nationalities & Religions & they all work so well together!:)

The only reason we go to all the disembarkation talks, is to see the crew (all Nationalities) bid us farewell..It always brings tears to my eyes..

JMHO..:) Betty

I have not been on HAL for several years but when I sailed with them (over 100 days), they had the "tipping not required" policy. All the dining room waiters were Indonesian and all the cabin stewards and bar and lounge servers were Filipinos. Happy to hear that many other nationalities are now working on HAL. Our experience on other cruise lines has been that the ladies from Romania were outstanding in the dining rooms. They all spoke flawless English and were very personable.

[sail7seas]

Anyone can sue for anything. Plunk down your filing fee, write out a 'complaint', bring it to the court house.......have it served upon the Defendant and there you go!!! You just sued someone. So what? All that does is give them the headache (and expense) of having to defend it and perhaps countersue you!!! But the part you haven't considered it the 'winning it' part. Anyone can sue; doesn't mean you'll come anywhere near winning!!

[jhannah]

Anyone can sue; doesn't mean you'll come anywhere near winning!!And sadly, most folks simply don't understand this! :rolleyes:

[Sunshine91]

I'll admit I didn't read the links to the suit, but I did read thru the entire thread, which I certainly do find relevant to HAL cruising.

What I always find astonishing (and a little sad) is folks' obsession with how much the crewmembers are paid. You know what - it's none of our business! Do you ask your friends how much money they make? Except for the 6 years I spent in government service, I've always worked in the private sector, where salaries are considered confidential.

This same question continually resurfaces in the tipping threads, as if the appropriate amount to tip is directly related to the wage paid to the worker. It's so totally NOT. The proper amount to tip should be based on the service provided and what your own heart tells you. It's such a personal decision. In a land-based operation, tipping is generally calculated on the total cost of the service - the meal, the haircut, the cabfare. Onboard ship it's a bit more difficult to figure out, assuming you want to give more than the auto-tip, but still, on land or on ship, none are based on how much the worker is paid.

[Lifinfastlane]

I have that same problem...but I am self-employed....who can I sue?

Self employed, you must have plenty of people you can sue from suppliers to clients. You can even sue people in your own family. Our legal system is a wonderful thing and businesses sue eachother, employees and customers all the time. Now when a customer or employee sues a business many find this somehow wrong.

[whogo]

What I always find astonishing (and a little sad) is folks' obsession with how much the crewmembers are paid. You know what - it's none of our business!

Of course it is my business. I can choose whether or not to patronize an establishment that is run in an ethical manner, and I can gather the information I need to decide whether the establishment is ethically run. Do I buy the cheapest or do I factor in:

Union vs nonunion?
US vs foreign made?
Local business vs huge conglomerate?
Free range vs factory eggs?

[Boatdrill]

I must follow this class action up with my Filipino friend. I know for a fact that she did try to stay in port for a couple of nights with a very close friend but HAL would not allow, she had to fly out that same day with the rest of the crew to Manila. She was quite upset about that, officers are allowed but not crew, her words, class discrimination!

When you talk with her again, ask her to tell you the type of visa she has in her passport...the one that allows her to fly into a country and join a ship (begin work), and the one that requires her to her to fly out of a country when she leaves the ship (finishes her contract).

Her visa is different than the ones required for many ship's officers. Different ship's departments are hired under different types of contracts. Most Filipinos are hired from manning agencies in Asia. Many officers are hired independantly, or from other cruiselines. The conditions and requirements of their work visas are different, depending on their citizenship, and the conditions under which they were hired.

It has to do with her hiring status, the country where she's from, and the country in which she is leaving the ship. The conditions/requirements of the visa that allowed her in, did not allow her to stay over...it required her to be in transit, and not stay in the country.

This is not unique to HAL; it is the same all cruiselines. It's an immigration/work visa issue, not class discrimination. If she wants to stay longer next time before flying home to Manila, then she'll need a visa that allows her to do that.


.

[bepsf]

Did anyone bother to read this from a former HAL employee?

http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=463 (http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=463)

(No judgement here on the content - just a different perspective)

[serendipity1499]

Did anyone bother to read this from a former HAL employee?

http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=463 (http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=463)

(No judgement here on the content - just a different perspective)

This is basically what Joyce Gleason-Adamidis said in her article "Under the Captain's Table" on Cruise Critic several years ago..

Thanks for posting it ! It certainly is a different perspective..

[whogo]

Did anyone bother to read this from a former HAL employee?

http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=463 (http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=463)

(No judgement here on the content - just a different perspective)

Yeah, it is an entirely different perspective. This HAL employee was an officer who worked before the tipping change was made; back when HAL paid the round trip airfare for their crew from the Philippines.

[babyher]

A new company took over a local tv station yesterday. Among others, they called in a 30-year excellent employee, told him he was done, gave him ten minutes to clean out his desk and get his @ out of the building. Not even a "thank you for 30 years of dedicated service." That's broadcasting.


A friend of my dads worked for the same company almost 30 years . Showed up for work one Monday morning ,like he had every Monday morning for all those years ,and found the main gates chained and padlocked . To add insult to injury, some teenaged rent- a- cop told him he was trespassing when he and other employees walked around in disbelief trying to get some answers.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I'm not going to express support for either HAL or this crewmember because I don't know all the specifics.

But I will say that this lawsuit-happy country has stretched it tenticles across the globe. Personally I don't believe in lawsuits unless the damages requested are the exact amount the person feels they've been "taken" for.

Whenever I see any lawsuit in the millions of $$$ (especially a class action one), I question who actually came up with the idea to sue ... the "injured" party? Or the lawyers who actually get the most money?

In a class action lawsuit, the amount each person receives is pretty small ... but the lawyers collect millions.

[sail7seas]

Deleted by poster. :)