Is it time for Stein Kruse to find a new job? [Archive]

bepsf

May 11th, 2007, 11:31 PM

After seeing the disastrous results of the Westerdam "upgrade"/expansion today
(http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=552486)* I'm struck by how many things have gone really wrong at HAL over the past few years since Stein Kruse was named HAL President in 2003.

1) *At least half of the $225 Million spent on the SOE was a complete waste:* Granted, the upgraded beds and linens were a smart move, the flat-screen TV's are nice enough and the Culinary Centers, Wine Bars and Explorations Cafe's have been successes.* However, the cheesy Club HAL additions to the S and R Class ships are a resounding flop, the Gym/Spa additions go largely unused and made the fronts of the R-Class ships ungainly and ruined views from the Crow's Nest - which on the S and R-Class ships were altered beyond necessity.* These dollars and changes were intended to make HAL into a line that was 'Modern' and 'Family Friendly' - yet the brass palm trees and fiberglass waterfalls are a joke - these really didn't change public perception one bit.

2)* The new auto-tipping system, while perhaps a good thing for the crew in and of itself, was accompanied by policies that charged the crew for things that were formerly provided to them at no cost such as uniforms and travel to and from the ship - making many of them worse off then before and diminishing morale and service levels.

3)* Hiring Eastern Europeans to staff the Pinnacle Grilles was a big mistake - These were jobs that should have been plum assignments for the more senior Indonesian waiters, but by giving them to the Eastern Europeans instead, the Indonesians were further de-moralized and guests had to put up with*surly*attitudes and spotty service from the Eastern Europeans until the Indonesians were restored to their rightful positions.

4)* The new executive chef - while a great thing for the line's food - was allowed to run rampant with a wacky idea for dinner entertainment that wouldn't have flown over at RCCL, turning off HAL guests and embarassing staff until it was cancelled.

5)* Changing the dining times from Two seatings to Four served to camouflage a decrease in staff levels, yet did nothing to make the guest experience better in any way. *In fact it*confused and irritated most guests -*particularly on the evenings when half the dining room would just receive their entrees when the lights were dimmed for a silly and outdated parade or the aforementioned ill-conceived dinnershow.* To follow this up, various dining "experiments" have gone on for over a year, further alienating HAL clientelle.

6)* While HAL struggles to maintain a certain level of profitability with its existing fleet - oftentimes finding it necessary to discount fares to levels that are sometimes below that of the mainstream lines - they continue to add capacity by ordering and building more and more ever-larger ships with ever-greater capacity.

7)* Call-center/Reservations staff continue to be largely uninformed, incorrect fares are posted and sold creating PR nightmares, TA's are not communicated with effectively regarding changes to the product or to existing reservations, cruises are oversold and passengers are "bumped" -* again to the detriment/angst of many paying customers.

8)* The cutbacks continue:* Fresh Flowers are replaced with fakes. *Fewer staff and crew are tasked to take care of more passengers needs while their compensation levels stagnate or even decrease.* Entertainment quality suffers and activities staffing levels are cut (while salaries stagnate).* Groups and profit centers are allowed to monopolize*public rooms aboard ship.**Traditional events and offerings that have been hallmarks of the line are swept away in favor of less expensive/less time consuming or more profitable alternatives.* Meanwhile, guests have to contend with exhortations from staff and crew to give "Nothing but Top Ratings" on the ever-present Comment Cards at the end of their cruises.

I continue to believe that overall HAL provides a great product and a superior value compared with the competition - but am I the only one who sees that they have been flailing around for the past few years and are losing their way?* These issues seem to coincide with the retirement/departure of Kurt Lanterman - so IMO, it would appear that HAL may need a new leader at the helm to guide the line in a truly improved and more profitable direction.

grannynurse

May 12th, 2007, 12:39 AM

hammybee

May 12th, 2007, 12:42 AM

A. Kirk Lanterman minimally owns about 167,000 shares of CCL, worth more than $8 million as of today. I think he's laughing all the way to the bank. He founded and owns Kirlan Venture Capital, since the mid 90's, and has always had plenty to keep him busy.

The Stein Man is given financial and performance targets by his management and the CCL Compensation Committee. His incentive compensation is tied to meeting those targets. I have no idea if he should be retired or not, because I do not know how well he performs, based upon the criteria establised for him, by his management. I also do not know how profitable HAL is, or not. I do know however, they are not the most profitable within the CCL family.

I enjoyed reading your observations. Here are mine:

1) I don't think children find the enhancements to Club HAL cheesy. In fact, I think more children than ever, are sailing HAL during school breaks along with their parents/grandparents who spend a lot of money while onboard.

I defer to your eye for detail on the Westerdam.

2) I enjoyed your recent link on a different thread to a HAL employee's take on tipping on HAL. It provided a different perspective than that which is painted by some of the crew. Since I do not work for HAL, I don't know what the real story is.

3) Like some others, my own experiences in the PG have been wonderful because of the ambiance, food and service.

4) Agree !

5) It appears, or maybe I am just hopeful :) , that the dining experiements are over and the VISTA ships will indeed please most of the traditional diners and those who prefer a more flexible dining time.

6) I have no idea the driving force behind the new build beyond that the market embraces new ships. For all I know, they are substantially more fuel efficient that they pay for themselves, over time. That you and I are not necessarily indicitive of the market, does not change this.

7) Based only upon the reports on this board, it certainly seems that there are serious organizational and technology issues within HAL, that impede a level of service to match that which most receive, while onboard.

8) Ah yes, groups- the source of all evil or perhaps that which keeps HAL's butt out of the red. It's apparent that all cruise lines are competing with resort hotels and each other for group business and it is increasing taking a toll on some cruises and pax, especially those pax who remember when groups were not as dominate, as they are now.

Wages in the U.S., when adjusted for inflation, have not increased since 2001. I hope the hardworking crew onboard, each HAL ship, has done better than we have.

Being told how to rank aspects of the cruise diminishes the purpose of ranking. It's probably better to use words instead of numbers and to remind all pax that if they did not use a facility to mark it N/A.

The cruising business in general has changed substantially over the past 25 years and substantially so since, 2001. The Stein Man has been President and CEO since 2004. The success of the Noordam can probably be attributed to the Stein Man and his team. We shall see what's what with the Eurodam.

IheartHAL

May 12th, 2007, 12:55 AM

Brian - you've done an excellent job of putting words around what many "HAL pals" are thinking. I think that if Holland America continues on its current path, there won't be much left that sets it apart from the other mass-market cruise lines. Your point about the Eastern European waiters in the Pinnacle was interesting -- I didn't realize others had noticed the awkwardness of having them there (not that I have anything against Eastern Europeans...)

Where's the petition?;)

kryos

May 12th, 2007, 01:20 AM

Brian,
I couldn't have said it better. I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I really don't like my options, where would I go?
You tried brand X; I read your story. Where will you go?
I'll ask for a "stack" of comment cards next cruise, after I see what they've done to Westerdam.
GN
That's exactly my problem. Where else can I go? Yes, I love the QE2 and would jump ship to that one in a minute, but except for the World Cruise that ship will be pretty much doing round trips from Southampton. Since I don't care to fly TransAtlantic, that's not an option.

The only step up from HAL, at least in my estimation, is to move up to the luxury lines ... and to do that would mean that I could probably only afford to sail once every couple of years.

So, basically ... at least for now ... HAL is my only option and all I can do is hope it doesn't get too bad.

By the way, do they still have the "chime master" calling people to dinner on the other HAL ships? We didn't have one on the Veendam last month. Is that another cutback?

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

May 12th, 2007, 01:27 AM

1) I don't think children find the enhancements to Club HAL cheesy. In fact, I think more children than ever, are sailing HAL during school breaks along with their parents/grandparents who spend a lot of money while onboard.

Children are sailing HAL now more than ever because HAL offers mom and dad a great price. RCCL and Disney won't compete based on price. They don't have to. They have things on their ships that are natural child magnets. I'd be willing to bet that 75% of the kids on HAL only wish they were on those other lines. But, maybe mom and dad can't afford those other lines, or are unwilling to pay the price ... so when HAL comes up with a steeply discounted fare ... sometimes even letting kids sail free in their parents' cabin ... the kids get a choice: HAL or nothing. Needless to say, the kids will make do with Club HAL.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm not saying HAL is a bad line. If it were, why would I sail it? But I wouldn't say the Club HAL improvements were a success based solely on the fact that more kids than ever were using them. That's more a factor of HAL's marketing strategy in trying to get more families with children sailing their ships.

Blue skies ...

--rita

hammybee

May 12th, 2007, 02:03 AM

Children are sailing HAL now more than ever because HAL offers mom and dad a great price. RCCL and Disney won't compete based on price. They don't have to. They have things on their ships that are natural child magnets. I'd be willing to bet that 75% of the kids on HAL only wish they were on those other lines. But, maybe mom and dad can't afford those other lines, or are unwilling to pay the price ... so when HAL comes up with a steeply discounted fare ... sometimes even letting kids sail free in their parents' cabin ... the kids get a choice: HAL or nothing. Needless to say, the kids will make do with Club HAL. Blue skies ...
--rita

Rita, You know I can't pass up an opportunity to talk about children, even though my own is now 18. We have sailed with her on most mass-marketed cruise lines, since she was in pre-school. All cruise lines occasionally, from time to time, offer a kids sail free promotion. This includes Crystal and Regent too.

The CC front page recently focused on kid facilities and Crystal's Program was identified as one of the better ones and they have absolutely no gimicks.

I am not sure if you have sailed with RCL. I have. Only a few of the RCL ships sail at a premium to HAL, based upon simialr intineraries, in inside/outside accommodations, and only some of the RCL ships have novelties like a rock climbing wall and ice skating rink. The majority of RCL's sail sell at a discount to HAL, as they should.

All cruise lines discount for the 3rd/4th pax in the same cabin. HAL is in the minority in that imposes auto tips for kids the same as adults ( don't want to veer off on this topic, again).

I agree most kids, if given the choice, would prefer to sail RCL's newest ships to try out the wall and rink. But the novelty quickly wears off. Kids want attention and companionship, most of all. Don't we all?

Apologies to Brian for going off topic. I could not resist.

gizmo

May 12th, 2007, 05:53 AM

Brian,

Well stated. I agree with all your points.

Guienevere_Arianette

May 12th, 2007, 08:39 AM

sab490

May 12th, 2007, 09:07 AM

Thank you for the succint evaluation of HAL; I've been wanting to cruise HAL for quite some time and your evaluation gives me a lot to think about. I did have one question, to any HAL cruiser who cares to respond:

1) What is the "public perception" of HAL and what about that perception does HAL want to change?

I think the public perception is a "floating retirement home". We had always avoided HAL because of that perception. We came to HAL Noordam last December primarily because of the NYC departure. We discovered that our perception was totally wrong. It was the best cruise ever and we are going back again 12/1.

IMO HAL has done very little to change that perception. While Carnival, RCCL, X, and NCL are in the midst of TV advertising blitzes, HAL sits on the sidelines allowing that perception to fester. Apparently they would rather spend their resources on "upgrading" their fleet and testing things like open dining to try and answer the competion. That's all well & good, but I don't think it accomplishes anything if no one knows about it. The NCL ads in particular attack traditional cruising (very effectively IMO) and HAL has done nothing to combat that.

dakrewser

May 12th, 2007, 09:22 AM

Mr. Kruse is doing exactly what he was hired to do, and doing it while keeping the ships full and the line in the black. It might only be short-term gain, but that's what Wall St. responds to. So there's little chance of him being asked to leave.

Instead, those of us who are unhappy enough should choose to leave. Oceania looks better every day...

u4ea

May 12th, 2007, 09:49 AM

Instead, those of us who are unhappy enough should choose to leave. Oceania looks better every day...

Yea, but not all of us have that kind of money. :cool:
Great opinons and great thread though, hopefully HAL reads this.
Mark...

CDRMark

May 12th, 2007, 10:07 AM

Value to Shareholders vs. Value to Mariners

CCL stock languished at $36.40 back in mid-August '06, hit $52.73 about Groundhog day, a $16/share appreciation! Some pundit Friday gave it a $58 price target. Cool beans!
During, and just prior to this same timeframe, HAL has experienced many of the 'changes' a lot of us bemoan.
And this in the most competetive cruising envirnoment ever.
Coincidince? I think not.
As I said in Orcrone's "premium cruiseline" thread, what wakes Mr. Kruse up in the middle of the night trembling is the concept of a ship sailing with empty cabins.
The current list of cruising CCers (edited by the wonderful Grama Pajama) shows about 260 sailings. At a nominal 2 pax per cabin and an average sailing of 9 days with a VERY conservative $100/day rate, I come up with just under a half-million HAL bucks (I know, I know but I am being conservative). Not enough to move the market, but....
A bunch of us are shareholders. 99.9% of us are Mariners. CCLs next annual meeting will be in Miami next April.
Road trip? (Have Proxy Will Travel; Wire BEPSF San Francisco:) )
Cheers
Mark

fcorey

May 12th, 2007, 10:23 AM

Brian

thanks for posting your open letter as it were. I think you voice the thoughts and complaints of ardent HAL supporters who feel the line may be heading in the wrong direction. HAL seems to have always been positioned as more refined, upscale, classic as compared to NCL or Carnival. THe problem is they probably couldnt fill all their ship had they stayed the same. I think someone on another thread compared Cunard stating that fewer ships would allow for sticking with the niche market and still filling the ships. Thats probably true but they chose to grow so they could lure families and 1st timers where they can make more money. The result is that Carnival corp. coffers are doing well and so is HAL.
I agree that some of the SOE upgrades are great, lets face it, it was just to keep up with the rest of the mass market as many are implementing similar changes.
So far as the Westerdam changes go, I stand by my guess that there was structural and infrastructure limitations that effected the design. I dont think any marine architect would do that intentionally if there wasnt a real reason. That hull is used by many lines and the HAL Vista version is one of the best looking of the lot (westerdam's now deformed backside aside)
Going forward I think it will be more important for HAL devotees to voice their discontent with changes that they do not like. Feedback to the company is the only thing that will get them to recind cost cutting measures that are making customers/passengers unhappy. An example, the flowers, the reduced cost of say $4000 per week on flowers may sound like a minor thing to someone sitting in an office in seattle, yet its something that some of us feel is a hallmark of the quality of a HAL ship and the fake flowers become a glaring example of how things are going down hill.
The tipping issue you address is just sad. The auto-tipping itself is fine, its the other changes that really smack of corporate greed. Its basically HAL saying we know how much you make and we're taking advantage of that. Long term this is a HUGE problem because lets face it, the friendly Indonesian staff is one of their greatest strengths.
But in closing I have to admit that from a corporate standpoint Dave is probably dead on correct with his assessment that he is doing what the board has directed him to do and he's probably here to stay. Mariners have a voice, if you dont like something write to HAL, post here and discuss. The boards and letters will get their attention we just need to show that in the greater scheme if things some changes and reductions have the consequence of losing business, otherwise they will do what they feel is best for profits.

fcorey

May 12th, 2007, 10:28 AM

Yea, but not all of us have that kind of money. :cool:
Great opinons and great thread though, hopefully HAL reads this.
Mark...

As I said above, I agree with Dave's assessment, and I could do 1 cruise per year on Oceania, but with HAL I can do 2 a year, or 1 cruise and 1 land trip so which do you think I choose? It comes down to the simple fact that HAL is a bit more refined than most mass market, but also a super value.

Randyk47

May 12th, 2007, 10:35 AM

Brian certainly summarized many of our observations and feelings about the changes made to HAL over the past few years. We're not leaving HAL but we are taking a break next year. After 5 straight years of our major annual vacation being a cruise (4 HAL, 1 Celebrity) we're booking a land based resort. Our HAL cruise experiences have been mixed with a good, then an OK, then an excellent, and the last one not so good. Price for a resort, reduced to a per diem rate, is about the same but cruising, quite frankly, still remains a pretty good bargain. We'll probably be back but time for a break and a change of pace.

hammybee

May 12th, 2007, 10:41 AM

I think the public perception is a "floating retirement home". We had always avoided HAL because of that perception. We came to HAL Noordam last December primarily because of the NYC departure. We discovered that our perception was totally wrong. It was the best cruise ever and we are going back again 12/1.

We have friends who REFUSE to sail HAL because of their perception which is that of a floating retirement home. That they themselves are closer to retirement age than I, makes this even more interesting.

Generally speaking, brand advertizing within CCL is insignificant compared to RCL and NCL and certainly not limited to HAL. Instead, I am going to speculate and say HAL has a different gameplan. Instead of spending $$$ to attract/convert new individual cruisers they are going all out for groups. From a pure business standpoint, they are increasingly filling 7 day sails with charters and groups and seem to be doing so without costly TV advertizing.

Obtaining repeat group/charter bookings trumps repeat individual pax bookings and exposes the individuals within the group to what makes HAL different. Those individuals within the group, become Mariners, just like you and me. They also fill out comment cards, at the end of their cruise, just like you and me.

That some individual Mariners are at odds with this strategy is perhaps anticipated fall out. Those who sail HAL's longer and more exotic voyages may continue to do so without being bothered by many children, groups or some of the changes occuring on the Vista Class ships. By this I mean, if you want to sail Anartica or visit Greenland, in reasonably affordable style, there are not too many choices out there.

So I am thinking HAL knows exactly what they are doing to grow their business and meet shareholder objectives. And for every individual pax they lose, they may win over 500 new pax, in a group.

lkmamom

May 12th, 2007, 10:45 AM

This is an interesting thread. We had always sailed with Princess before enjoying our first cruise with HAL last summer. It "seemed" to us that Princess was downgrading a lot, before we decided to try another cruiseline. Many of the things that you have mentioned HAL changing were along the same things that we noticed Princess changing, thus, our desire to look elsewhere.

Maybe it is a sign of the times and as others have said, the ships are full and that is what counts. I think that the cruiselines are trying to make the experiance more affordable for everyone and also marketing to children (as others have said). If you take the time and add up all of the costs of what a vacation would cost a family with transportation to the assorted ports of any itin. and food, hotel, etc. cruising is an extremely economical way to travel for families in many instances.

At this time, we love HAL and can't wait until our next cruise this summer on the Maasdam. I really cannot say though, that we would not like to try yet another cruiseline after our one and only is off to college.:)

As always, I really enjoy all of the input from all of the "seasoned" HAL cruisers. It really helps more than you know!
Linda

arzz

May 12th, 2007, 11:20 AM

Brian -- you are right on!

I love HAL and I doubt that in the long run I will go elsewhere unless an affordable elsewhere that is as classy as HAL appears. Still, my next two cruises are on other lines - June on Princess, December on Celebrity - though these cruises were not chosen based on a desire to try another flavor - they were chosen to fit criteria that were independent of cruise line - I am anxious to see how I feel about HAL when I return from my extracurricular cruises. We are booked for 65 days on the Amsterdam in September of 2008 - I hope that I continue to feel that I have made the right choice for the extended voyage when I return home this December.

I have always admired a ship with a classic profile and I am astounded to see what happened to the Westerdam. I sure hope that nothing that drastic is planned for the Prinsendam on her upcoming dry dock.

I am well aware that financial integrity and a bit of corporate greed drive many corporate decisions -- I only hope that HAL does not "throw the baby out with the bath water". Viva La Difference!

Lets maintain the integrity of the HAL product as a classy, elegant, unique experience and keep this line from becoming one of those same old vanilla flavors in the market place. And I certainly hope that HAL will consider the needs of their Indonesian crew members as they contribute over 50% of the HAL experience. I do not attempt to understand or judge exactly what has occured with the way HAL deals with the Indonesian crew -- I cannot at this time take sides -- however, it was these crew members who managed to convert what could have been a horrible experience on the Prinsendam this past winter into what was just a wonderful adventure. HAL owes these people (and their officers) a huge debt of gratitude for contantly and consistently performing above and beyond the call of duty.

GPoll189

May 12th, 2007, 01:01 PM

I can't but laugh at all of you saying that HAL should let Kruse go. OK he has changed HAL to a line that is closer to the mainstream, but that is not his fault. First the board member gave him directions to make HAL better and closer to the mainstream which he has done. Second, make that buck, give the company more black money. That is the bottom line in todays world. For example look at the gas companies. However, the gas companies have government over looking them. If you all know there are only to companies that are the major players in the USA and each of them are try to get the same passengers. But lets go back to all of you moaning and crying over HAL now. Get over it or move on. Because the new HAL will never ever go back to being the old HAL. You think all of your comments and critiques will not change how HAL is run or the directions it is going. They don't care if they alienate the old timers because they want the new passengers (younger crowd) to take over and sail on the ships. In reality that is what is happening. You see it and complain about it on the holiday cruises. It is a matter of time until you see more and more younger passengers on HAL ships. IMHO get over your complaints and move on if you have a problem as you all say there are other lines than go to them. However, you coment after that is that you can't afford it, the reason you can afford HAL is that they have made these changes.

Now let me explain what I mean buy that.

1. Price of cruising - Go back 10 years. HAL was one of the most expensive lines out there. Now it is mainstreamed. Do you know where all that extra money went. Yes it went to some of the perks that we have lost but also to the other crew that we now pay tips for. So would you rather pay more to get the perks back and get rid or the said tips. I know some will say yes but with prices today that would put you in to Oceania prices. You make the descions.

2. It is a matter of time until the HAL ships get bigger. The bottom dollar is that if they can fill each cabin on 80% or more of their voyages they will put more rooms on it. And about over booking. If they have room they will allow those passengers passage.

3. Children on ships - get over it. HAL is not your parents line anymore. It is getting younger and moving away from the old clientel they have on it. You say HAL is not for children, if it is not then Then why are there more sailing on HAL, you answer me that question. I hate when you attack the youngest passengers and the future of the cruising industry.

4. All of you including Brian (pertaining to this post, you are the OP) you try to stir up other people. Trying to get use to agree and change how HAL is, but it comes down to one thing MAKING MONEY. If the line can do this they why do they care what we say. As some other post sayed in this post is that for each of us that have a complaint there are 500 other new cruisers that will take our place. If any of you want to move on because you can't take the changes that are happening on HAL or even in the cruising industry so be it. It won't bother HAL and it surely won't bother me. I know, no matter how much HAL will change it will sure have a piece of my heart. Maybe one day I to will have to change but I will always remember how HAL and I grew up together.

If you think Oceania, MSC and the other lines won't change you are surely wrong. If they want to make a go at it in the American market with the big two (CCL & RCCI) then they will have to make the changes need to make these happen.

Geoffrey

HeatherInFlorida

May 12th, 2007, 01:46 PM

Brian, you make some excellent points and I agree with many of them. I honestly don't think some of these issues are restricted to HAL though. I think you're entering a time in your life where you begin to see what comes to all of us as we mature ... change that we're just not that happy with.

In the end, it's all about the bottom line now. With larger cruise ships and the reach for the masses of people who have never cruised, you and I are simply not that important. Many will disagree; we all want to think our business is important, but I honestly don't think that it is in our present day world.

You and I disagree about Celebrity. Many here know I prefer it to HAL and I can't imagine anyone suggesting they wouldn't try it based on your experience alone. I'm not sure I ever understand why people who become slightly less ga-ga over HAL won't try something else. Once they do, they just might find themselves returning to HAL with a whole new viewpoint ... or not!:)

As we speak, friends we met on the Prinsendam in December (and loved it as much as we did) are now on Regent having cruised from FLL to Barcelona. In one email they said that this is the absolute best cruise they've ever been on in all respects. While I know Regent is more expensive, for those who drink that's completely included. And all tips are truly included. So while it might be a bit more, if you time it right I think it's worth a try.

There are so many cruise lines to choose from. At this point I still enjoy HAL. We have the Veendam booked for November and we'll see if continue to like it. But I certainly will continue to cruise Celebrity and would not hesitate to branch out and try other lines.

As far as telling HAL how we feel about their "improvements", we're "talking to the hand". As long as they're filling their ships and business is good, they're going to stick with what's working.

bepsf

May 12th, 2007, 05:03 PM

*
4. All of you including Brian (pertaining to this post, you are the OP) you try to stir up other people. Trying to get use to agree and change how HAL is, but it comes down to one thing MAKING MONEY. If the line can do this they why do they care what we say. As some other post sayed in this post is that for each of us that have a complaint there are 500 other new cruisers that will take our place. If any of you want to move on because you can't take the changes that are happening on HAL or even in the cruising industry so be it. It won't bother HAL and it surely won't bother me. I know, no matter how much HAL will change it will sure have a piece of my heart. Maybe one day I to will have to change but I will always remember how HAL and I grew up together.**
Geoffrey

Geoffrey--

What you call 'stirring up' I call a discussion.

I have no problem with children, or change per-se - but when the changes made*don't make sense and*aren't for the better, then it's time to discuss the issues.

When I say that the SOE as regards Club HAL is a flop, I don't mean that more kids and families aren't booking HAL.* I know very well that there are more kids on HAL ships these days, but it's not for the brass palm trees and fiberglass waterfalls - the reason families book is price.* Once the kids - particularly teens - see the dark, practically windowless spaces, wading pool and plastic junk on deck intended for them, they want nothing to do with them. * Do you know any self-respecing teenage girls who would want to spend their days on vacation eating out of a vending machine or lounging under a brass palm tree?**Do you know any self-respecting teenage boy that would want to spend a week hanging around a pool that they can't do a cannonball into or hanging around anyplace where the girls aren't?

As a CCL shareholder, I have never had a problem with HAL making a profit - I encourage it!* I'll also go on record stating that I'd gladly pay 10-15% more to retain many HAL traditions and former service levels - an extra $150-200 bucks on a $1500-2000/pp fare is no big deal (as long as everyone else is paying it too - it comes down to not discounting fares to WalMart prices...)* What I have an issue with is HAL management making stupid and costly mistakes - to the detriment of their guests, their employees and to their CCL shareholders.

wander

May 12th, 2007, 06:34 PM

Brian,

I do not pretend to know what teenagers want and do not want these days, but I do know that both the teenage and youth areas of Club Hal were PACKED AND BUSY day and evening on a cruise over this past Christmas.

fcorey

May 12th, 2007, 07:36 PM

I'll also go on record stating that I'd gladly pay 10-15% more to retain many HAL traditions and former service levels - an extra $150-200 bucks on a $1500-2000/pp fare is no big deal (as long as everyone else is paying it too - it comes down to not discounting fares to WalMart prices

Brian, I agree with you, and posted a similar remark a couple of months ago. However I am not sure many people would agree with this. Those that love HAl for what it is and what it was would be more likely to pay without question, but attracting new cruisers would be more difficult.

PathfinderEss

May 12th, 2007, 09:23 PM

Brian I totally concur with your post. We've been traveling on Hal for about 15 years not as much as some but more then others. We're have 20 cruises with them and as much as I like Hal, I've been wondering what the heck they have been doing in the last few years. I certainly could see them improving the bedding, putting in new carpet, maybe new furniture, new deck furniture, new wallpaper, or paint, just freshening things up a bit and doing some up dating in general but not the structural changes they have done, to me it has not improved anything on the S class except make things worse, and now they are messing around with the Vista class, what for, these are all nice ships. If they want different things do it to the new ships that are being built. Some people will say we don't like change, but I do, just not the hap hazard way they are doing things on the S class and now the Vista class. I'm sure they don't care one bit what your or my opinions are, but least they forget that we are the customers that pay the bills. The majority of Hal business is repeat customers, right? So maybe they should start listening, and we could have saved them 200 million.

Palm Beacher

May 12th, 2007, 10:03 PM

I totally agree with you Brian. Maybe it's time for the Stein Man to go.

eldercruser

May 12th, 2007, 10:06 PM

In spite of Gpoll189's post I think the OP makes some tremendous points. It really summarizes many of the issues being discussed the past few days. Whether it all goes back to the CEO, I am not in a position to say, but he is the leader of the executive team and from my perspective, the executive decisions being made are leading HAL down a slippery slope to eventual failure (as I mentioned in a post on another thread).

Your points vividly illustrate the fact that short term cuts are being made to improve the bottom line rather than service improvements to boost revenue. It appears that the HAL executives have come to the conclusion that the cruiselines, like the airlines in the past, are becoming generic to the general public. Thus, they (the public) make purchase decisions on price alone. So keeping prices as low as possible is Job 1. We'll (HAL) make it up by cutting costs. In my humble opinion, it is a recipe for failure over the long haul.

We'll see where it all goes. As for us, we have taken 16 cruises in the last 10 years, 13 on HAL. We are now in a position to take lots more, but guess what? After our upcoming Baltics cruise we are moving on. No cruises, but lots of travel planned. Quite frankly, we have had enough overpromising and under delivering. When and if we return to cruising, I suspect it will not be with HAL.

GPoll189

May 12th, 2007, 11:49 PM

Brian and All,

I know that this is a forum where we come to talk and relate our opinions. I love the idea where we can come and debate how we feel about everything. I think if I ever met any of you are a cruise would would have a wonderful time talking about things including the cruising industry. However I know there is some age difference between me and some of the other posters. And maybe that makes a difference how I feel about things but it is great to talk about it.

We all feel the pain of how the industry has changed. All cruiselines are moving from smaller ships to bigger ships, but we can still say that HAL has some of the smaller ships in the industry. We are more cozier that the other lines and of course the crew remembers our names.

But we don't know if Kruse was really to blame for this. Just like some contries have a Prime Minister and then they also have a President. For these countries the President is just a figure head and the Prime Minister has all the power. With any company there is a CEO who is the fore front of the company but he has to come back ever day or whenever he needs to make a decision and pass it by the board, and if he wants to keep his job he needs to make the decision in favor of the board. Of course the board wants to make money, this money pays their salary. Kruse is who we see in the Mariner, in public confernce but we have to remember he has to make choices that keeps the board happy.

As for club HAL honestly I can't tell you anything about the recent changes. But before I out grew club HAL I can tell you that it has come a long way from the 80's when I was only 5 to when I turned the magic 18. Still some children don't like all the activities that RCCL, and others have, but other due, however the real descion on what line the children go on is the Parents. If the value is there the parents will go on the line with the best value.

The Vista I really don't have a view on them. I love the NOORDAM, Havent sailed on her sisters, but I think NOORDAM was such a success and everyone who sails her loves her why not make three more like her. Her lines are great but we don't really know why her sisters can't have the exact lines as her. But, the Eurodam except fot he new floor will have the same lines as NOORDAM. I think NOORDAM, which we know is based on the hull of a CCL line is being used by many companies. They were able to increase capacity on NOORDAM while she was being built I guessed they saw they had room and decided to do it to her sisters. So we will see if they are going to do it to the others, after some people have their says, but it sounds like they have already made the plans to do it and have the money invested in the changes so they will happen.

I want to appoligize if it sounded like I called someone out. That is not what I wanted to do. Just wanted to try to show a possible different light than what I was seeing in the discussion so far.

Geoffrey

arzz

May 13th, 2007, 12:23 AM

I find this discussion extremely interesting. It definitely sums up many of the issues that people on this board have expressed for some time now. I do not, however, know or believe that any one person is responsible for these changes or that any one person should take the blame -- but I applaud the expression of our discontent -- HAL needs to know.

The changes, however, are probably more the product of a morphing industry, trying to redefine itself for what they perceive to be today's market, rather than a product of one person's vision for HAL. It is unclear if those of us who would express the desire to keep things the same are enough of a market force to eclipse those to whom the changes appeal.

Many people do not know cruising for anything other than what it is and has been recently. Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, many are out there looking for a different cruise product than the one we would like to retain. The real question here, I think, is whether or not CCL is content to let HAL appeal to a smaller segment of cruisers -- or whether, as I fear, they wish HAL to continue to grow into the main stream. I am struck by their recent decision to sell Windstar as an expression of their discontent with the smaller, niche market. I am not sure that it bodes well for the vision that many of us have for HAL.

Sea King

May 13th, 2007, 11:30 AM

IMHO Brian should be nominated for President today:eek:

why not, he apparently has the "all the answers" but as importantly owns stock in CCL, an absolute pre-requisite for appointment:D

is HAL perfect? c,mon .. can you name one company that is:rolleyes:

has HAL deteriorated to the point where there should be a coup d'etat? don't think so:p

I'm not saying I agree with everything CCL or Stein Kruse has done .. but, I'm not at the point where I think "impeachment" is in order

by the way Brian, when is your next HAL cruise:D

HeatherInFlorida

May 13th, 2007, 11:54 AM

Sorry, I just don't get it. Odd that one of the people who like HAL quite a bit less than others that I end up sticking up for them:) .

Thisis a business and has little to do with Kruse. He has the directive to make HAL financially productive and he'll do whatever it takes to bring in the most new cruisers. Whether or not someone is willing to pay a couple of hundred more $$$ to keep some of the old standards isn't the issue. HAL wants to fill their ships ... whether it's you or me does not matter. It's about numbers.

Anyone that is unhappy to a point they won't cruise HAL might be disappointing for them, but in the end it's about numbers. We've been told that on this board so many times by people who know this stuff, but the message doesn't meet its mark.

As far as HAL is concerned if they're filling their ships, they're doing it right. Unless or until there comes a time they can't do that, we won't see a change from he current direction.

MercedMike

May 13th, 2007, 11:57 AM

fcorey

May 13th, 2007, 03:22 PM

I guess it is forbidden to disagree with the 5000+ crowd

Nit picking design elements is, IMHO, a waste of good board space.

Mike, not so at all. I respect all opinions, and I am the first person to tell you I dont know as much as others here. The extent of my maritime experience comes mostly from my service in the Navy. My job was that of NPO, Nuclear Propulsion officer, so I know far more about engineering than ship design. My comments earlier were simply that I feel the modification while looking odd was likely done for a reason. I have no idea what that reason may be :o Its a beautiful ship either way, and no I wont stop sailing HAL because they modifed the stern.

As far as the "waste of good board space", who are you to decide what is or isnt? The board is open to all to post and read. Simply put , nobody is forcing you to read any thread. There are many I dont even look at because they dont interest me at all. But I wont criticize someone for posting what's on their mind, as a member of this community thats their right, just as it is yours to disagree.

HeatherInFlorida

May 13th, 2007, 04:24 PM

Toad

May 13th, 2007, 10:22 PM

I totally agree with the OP.

CalGal254

May 13th, 2007, 11:03 PM

By the way, do they still have the "chime master" calling people to dinner on the other HAL ships? We didn't have one on the Veendam last month. Is that another cutback?

--rita

Rita,
Didn't see a reply to this part of your post. We just returned from the Volendam. We still enjoyed the chimes calling us to dinner each night. Glad so far that tradition is intact.
--Irene

hammybee

May 13th, 2007, 11:27 PM

shipmix

May 14th, 2007, 01:01 AM

I'm confused. I read all the posts here this morning and I don't see any missing.

I have way over 5000 posts and have disagreed with Brian twice on this thread and my posts are still here. No one will remove a post disagreeing with Brian unless it breaks the guidelines of this board.

Many people who have tons of posts disagree with each other all the time here. This board would be pretty boring if we all saw everything the same way.

Hello...
I was one of the individuals who did post that I did not agree with some of the statements being made and mine indeed was quickly removed as Mike said. It is a shame that you are not able to voice your thoughts here openly. I have read the comments about HAL for several months and thought I would take the time now to say a few points, but it seems clear my points were not well taken. Let's see how long this one stays up ?

kryos

May 14th, 2007, 03:05 AM

I'm not sure I ever understand why people who become slightly less ga-ga over HAL won't try something else. Once they do, they just might find themselves returning to HAL with a whole new viewpoint ... or not!:)

I'm with you on that one, Heather. I will always try other cruise lines. Of course, I'm only likely to try those that I think I will like ... staying away from the mega-ships in RCL's fleet and the Carnival party boats ... but as to others, I'll always try them despite loving my experiences on HAL. I just sailed the QE2 last month and while I was sure I would hate it (I only used it as an alternative to flying home after an 18-day Veendam repositioning cruise), I was shocked in that I fell in love with the grand old lady ... almost from the moment I stepped onboard. True, I wasn't crazy about the formal environment, but I found after a day or so observing others that I could "pass" there too ... just as I do on HAL.

So, my advice to people who are a bit disappointed in HAL of late is to try some other cruise lines. Take shorter cruises on a few of them. You might be pleasantly surprised in that you'll find some very much to your liking.

Blue skies ...

--rita

kryos

May 14th, 2007, 03:17 AM

As a CCL shareholder, I have never had a problem with HAL making a profit - I encourage it!* I'll also go on record stating that I'd gladly pay 10-15% more to retain many HAL traditions and former service levels - an extra $150-200 bucks on a $1500-2000/pp fare is no big deal (as long as everyone else is paying it too - it comes down to not discounting fares to WalMart prices...)* What I have an issue with is HAL management making stupid and costly mistakes - to the detriment of their guests, their employees and to their CCL shareholders.
They have to discount the fares in order to attract the family cruiser. Price is the only competitive edge they have. RCL sure isn't gonna discount ... not with all the ammenities they have for kids on most of their ships. So, since HAL can't hold a candle to RCL (and perhaps Disney and Carnival) in the area of kid-friendly ammenities, they go after the parents with killer deals in order to bring those families onboard HAL ships. As a result, I would imagine the profit margin on many traditional seven and ten-day sailings is much lower ... and thus many of the HAL traditions that we've become used to seem to get tossed to the wayside ... especially if those traditions cut into that already shrinking bottom line.

After all, when you shop WalMart, you don't expect fancy. You just expect a good price and a good value. The new cruisers being enticed onboard with HAL's lower fares don't give a hoot about cruising as it once was. They want a decent family vacation at a price that won't break the bank. They want decent food and lots of it. They want flexible dining. They want the traditional Caribbean ports with good, free beaches. HAL is giving them all that and that's why you are seeing more and more families and kids on HAL ships.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Cruising Boomer

May 14th, 2007, 06:26 AM

There is a cruise line out there for everyone, in my view. One size does not fit all. People cruise for different reasons. Whether there are cut flowers or artificial is not something we care much about or even if the food is truly gourmet. We are in Paris right now for a month in an apartment - and yes trying gourmet food is on our list here. We cruise for relaxation and interesting itineraries where we would probably not take a land cruise. For example, we are not going to fly all over the Caribbean to the various islands but we have taken cruises to sample many island at one time. We also have found places we want to return to on a land cruise because cruising usually just give you a taste of a country.

We also believe that you have to pick ships within a cruise line carefully. We love the Prisendam because it is small and does not have an appeal for the "fun loving" partying crowd. Although we are young for the Prisendam, we love the old world flavor of the ship. We are doing back to back cruises this summer from Amsterdam to Spitzenbergen via Norwegian coast and then Amsterdam around the Baltic. Even though it is summer, I doubt there will be many children.

It also depends on the time of year and the length of the itinerary. Our 31 day cruise on the Veendam from Vancouver to Tampa via the Amazon had two or three kids and these were toddlers traveling with very brave parents. Even our 7 day to Mexico in March did not have that many kids since it was not during a holiday vacation time. Our Alaska cruise in June 2005 was filled with kids - no surprise there. This was on the Amsterdam and it was a fun family cruise.

We actually love some of the changes to the Veendam and that class of ship. The library and Starbucks like coffee bar is awesome. It was far better than the Oosterdam and the other large ships. On our last cruise on the Rotterdam they had changed the library also and it was one of the busiest places on the ship. We almost did not take the Oostersam cruise because we thought we would not like the large class of ship but we found it to be fine. We think that some of the design features are meant to make it feel like a smaller ship. For example, the Lido is a lot larger than on the other classes of ships but it is broken up into smaller areas that make it seem more intimate.

I have found that writing to HAL does work - in some instances. If it is a letter just to gripe, they are probably not going to listen. I sent them a letter that was very complimentary of our cruise - which was true - but I commented that I was concerned with their internet policy of not carrying over minutes from one cruise to another on our back to back cruises from Valparaiso to Rio and then Rio to Lisbon. I got a nice letter back agreeing and saying they were changing the policy and giving my wife and I a nice sized credit on our next sailing.

Do we love everything about HAL? No - but I cannot say that I love everything about most things. We still believe that HAL is good value for the money despite the changes. If we want something more grand, we'll take another line but since we are more interested in itinearies and good pubic rooms for reading and relaxing we will probably stay with HAL as our primary cruise line. Some of their repositioning cruises are awesome - we just booked Venice to Fort Lauderdale for October 2008 for about $2500 each in a verandah cabin. For 17 days, we cannot afrod to stay home! :D For an outside cabin it was even less, but we have this fantasy of sailing down the Grand Canal in Venice sitting on our verandah!!

I do NOT like what I have read here about the changes for the crew that came along with the tipping - i.e. making them pay for uniforms, travel to the ship, etc. The very friendly Indonesian crew is part of what we love about HAL - if they leave, we might just follow them!!! I think this is something we should address. On the Oosterdam, the hotel manager pays a lot of attention to the CC boards. We had two meetings with him and his staff and we could ask anything. If any of us have these CC get togethers - meet and greets on a ship, we should ask these questions. Also when they give their debarkation talk and tout the new tipping policy, maybe there should be a quesiton or corner the cruise director, hotel manager, or restaurant manager and ask the same thing. There are usually some programs on board where these folks get together to answer questions about "life at sea." Why not ask it there? Why not put it on the comment card? If enough start saying the same thing, maybe they will pay some attention or give us a better explanation? This is probably naieve but I like to give people a chance to respond. I was in a business where people constantly jumped to conclusions. Maybe there is another side to the story.

Doug

HeatherInFlorida

May 14th, 2007, 11:26 AM

Hello...
I was one of the individuals who did post that I did not agree with some of the statements being made and mine indeed was quickly removed as Mike said. It is a shame that you are not able to voice your thoughts here openly. I have read the comments about HAL for several months and thought I would take the time now to say a few points, but it seems clear my points were not well taken. Let's see how long this one stays up ?

Shipmix, it must have been removed very quickly and I'm positive it was not because you disagreed with the OP. There are several disagreements with the OP here and they have not been removed. This is an extremely open forum.

Perhaps it was seen as demeaning, perhaps you used words that were seen as inflammatory in some way. I didn't see it so I don't know. They never remove posts on this board simply because they disagree with the OP.

Believe me ... I wouldn't have over 8000 posts if they did:D !!!!

hammybee

May 14th, 2007, 11:38 AM

hammybee

May 14th, 2007, 12:12 PM

I do NOT like what I have read here about the changes for the crew that came along with the tipping - i.e. making them pay for uniforms, travel to the ship, etc. The very friendly Indonesian crew is part of what we love about HAL - if they leave, we might just follow them!!! I think this is something we should address. Doug

I too have read some of the posts relative to changes made for the crew. I have also read the link that Brian provided on a different thread that balanced some of these perceptions. I do not work for HAL or onboard a HAL ship, so I don't know what the deal is. And frankly, it's none of my business.

When I dine out I do not ask the waitstaff if they paid for their uniforms or transportation. When I stay at a hotel I do not ask hotel employees personal questions and would be disinclined to listen to a tale of woe, if they chose to offer one.

I am aware that many employees, regardless of industy, pay $ thousands per year to commute to/from their jobs by public transportation or car. I am also aware of the working poor who work two minimum wage jobs, within the fast food industry, but cannot manage to pay rent and therefore sleep, with their families, in shelters.

I still order a Whopper w/o pickles and enjoy it. I am not inclined to call for the retirement of the CEO of Mc Donalds to retire because he pays minimum wage to the majority of his employees.

When I tip at a restaurant or hotel, I do not ask about the disposition of the tips I leave. I have no idea if there is formalized or informal sharing of tips. And I do not ask to see their tax return or know how much of their income is reported or not. I have no idea how good or bad their lives are.

When I fly, I don't ask the pilot or flight attendent how they feel that their retirement benefits or salary increases went poof, even though it is public information.

Cruising is unique in that it puts pax and service employees in a position where some of these conversations might happen more so than anywhere else. And when they do, they are biased.

hammybee

May 14th, 2007, 12:24 PM

They have to discount the fares in order to attract the family cruiser. Blue skies ...--rita

The price of a cabin on HAL is determined by what the competition charges for a cabin and vice-versa. The same thing is true of an airplane seat.

The majority of Carnival, RCL and NCL ships do not offer more for children. The newer and larger ships do and when they do, they often charge a premium for it.

From time to time, ALL cruise lines, including Crystal and Regent offer promotions to encourage families to sail designated hyper- competitive intineraries.

The name of the game is to fill cabins and if cruise lines could do so, with flying monkeys instead of humans, they would.

Cruising Boomer

May 14th, 2007, 01:35 PM

I too have read some of the posts relative to changes made for the crew. I have also read the link that Brian provided on a different thread that balanced some of these perceptions. I do not work for HAL or onboard a HAL ship, so I don't know what the deal is. And frankly, it's none of my business.

When I dine out I do not ask the waitstaff if they paid for their uniforms or transportation. When I stay at a hotel I do not ask hotel employees personal questions and would be disinclined to listen to a tale of woe, if they chose to offer one.

I am aware that many employees, regardless of industy, pay $ thousands per year to commute to/from their jobs by public transportation or car. I am also aware of the working poor who work two minimum wage jobs, within the fast food industry, but cannot
manage to pay rent and therefore sleep, with their families, in shelters.

I still order a Whopper w/o pickles and enjoy it. I am not inclined to call for the retirement of the CEO of Mc Donalds to retire because he pays minimum wage to the majority of his employees.

When I tip at a restaurant or hotel, I do not ask about the disposition of the tips I leave. I have no idea if there is formalized or informal sharing of tips. And I do not ask to see their tax return or know how much of their income is reported or not. I have no idea how good or bad their lives are.

When I fly, I don't ask the pilot or flight attendent how they feel that their retirement benefits or salary increases went poof, even though it is public information.

Cruising is unique in that it puts pax and service employees in a position where some of these conversations might happen more so than anywhere else. And when they do, they are biased.

Hambee,

My what a tirade! My point is that HAL touts the new tipping policy without telling you the whole story. Again, if the Indonesian crew is unhappy and leaves HAL, I will probably leave too because they make the curise enjoyable for us. If that is not a concern of yours, fine - stay with HAL. You have made my point - to each his own. On your other point of not caring what the CEO makes or the company, I will not shop at Walmart because of the way they treat their employees and the way they have decimated so many small towns across the country. I have relatives in many small Kansas towns - and what the tornadoes have not destoryed Walmart has! Again, to each his own - anyone can shop there if they want, we will not. It's a free country - or sort of -the last I checked. Enjoy your vein clogging McGreasy - another place we will not go. You are right about companies not paying for commuting - all those employees flying in from Jakarta to work at McDonald's in the States have a real burden.

Doug

dakrewser

May 14th, 2007, 01:46 PM

Hambee,

My what a tirade! My point is that HAL touts the new tipping policy without telling you the whole story. Again, if the Indonesian crew is unhappy and leaves HAL, I will probably leave too because they make the curise enjoyable for us. If that is not a concern of yours, fine - stay with HAL. You have made my point - to each his own. On your other point of not caring what the CEO makes or the company, I will not shop at Walmart because of the way they treat their employees and the way they have decimated so many small towns across the country. I have relatives in many small Kansas towns - and what the tornadoes have not destoryed Walmart has! Again, to each his own - anyone can shop there if they want, we will not. It's a free country - or sort of -the last I checked. Enjoy your vein clogging McGreasy - another place we will not go. You are right about companies not paying for commuting - all those employees flying in from Jakarta to work at McDonald's in the States have a real burden.

Doug

Aren't we the snide one. I'll bet you're even thinking of not getting gas on Tuesday to support the "oil boycott (http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_129015215.html)". Now I'm not trying to tell you where to shop or what to buy, and I've certainly stopped shopping at Circuit City because of their employee practices. Not that they've fired older employees, though, but because they now only hire untrained, uninformed people. You don't shop at MacDonalds or Walmart, but please don't expect that your action makes a bit of difference to their execs. Nor will a boycott of HAL make a difference. Except, of course, that you'll be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Spend your money where it makes the most economic sense to you, and let the market take care of the rest.

Cruising Boomer

May 14th, 2007, 02:03 PM

It makes no difference what I do - you are ABSOLUTELY correct. But...it is my choice and as I keep saying - to each his own. I doubt that you read my whole post anyway. We like HAL but we also like the Indonesian staff. We mostly take 30 plus day cruises and get to know them quite well. Several have told us stories about the changes and the impacts it has had. We only started cruising a few years ago but traveled extensively by land (60 countries) and lived in third world countries for over 30 years. If you think many of these people have much of a choice, then you ought to try raising a family in Indonesia. Many companies take advantage of this - thus Nike and others got caught violating what would have been a violation of child labor laws in the U.S. But...I guess that's just the free market place at its best so I should not be concerned.

Doug

jazzsea

May 14th, 2007, 02:38 PM

I'm not sure that I can agree with his ouster. The Holland America changes over the last four years are too numerous to mention. Most of us are aware of the changes and realize that there is not much we, as cruisers, can do. There's just no way to go back to the way it was before.

I don't like the split dinner seating but I understand that it has become more and more difficult to bring new staff aboard the Holland America Line ships. Not because the men and women of the Phillipines and Indonesia are unwilling to work, but because getting them work visas to enter the United States is really, really difficult. That explains in some part why there are more eastern European workers in the Pinnacle Grill.

My husband and I have tried other cruise lines. We were on Queen Mary II a few months ago and were on Oceania a year ago. We missed Holland America Line. We missed the art work and antiques and the free ice cream, the Explorer's Lounge and the Dolphin Bar. We're not ready to give up on Holland America and have five cruises planned with them in the next 12 months.

I'm not sure what the tipping issues are on this board. Do you believe that the staff has to buy their own uniforms? Do you think maybe that each staff member has a different contract and each contract may cover different expenses?

Sometimes you have to realize that the staff doesn't always tell the absolute truth about their working conditions and/or compensation.

I've been away from these boards for two years because it seemed that too many people were angry and upset. Back in the day, we could get great information and lots and lots of suggestions from this board. I see that the good information is still on the board. We just have to look harder to find it.

serendipity1499

May 14th, 2007, 03:01 PM

Well, there were at least three posts here this morning disagreeing with Brian and the other posters obsessed with the size of their balcony and think HAL is going to ruin because they can design ships better than marine architects. I guess it is forbidden to disagree with the 5000+ crowd, because all of those posts have abruptly disappeared.

So here it is again -- who cares?? Nit picking design elements is, IMHO, a waste of good board space. Apparently the mommitors feel that it is disagreeing with Brian that is a waste of good space.

I will check back and see if I set a record for fastest disappearing post. >:-)

I do not see any removal of posts on this thread..And as Heather said, I also believe both you and ShipMix are confusing this thread with the Westerdam Dry Dock thread..That thread has several posters who have disagreed with Brian..Hammybee pointed this out to Shipmix...His original post is still on that thread & has not been removed...

I disagree with several points Brian has made...First of all the CEO does not dictate policy...He does have a great deal of weight on the Board, but still only has one vote..It's the entire Board who dictates Policy...

As far as half of the SOE changes being a waste, I wonder where his figures come from or is this just his opinion:confused: Also can't believe that anyone who is not a Marine Engineer, has the qualifications to make an informed opinion about the changes to the Westerdam..

I've heard different opinions about Club Hal's Teen Center.. However, since I don't have teens I could not possibly make a judgment on this..;)

Believe that closing the Crow's Nest was a very dumb thing, but could it be that there was mis-communication between Seattle & the Ship..Perhaps the Hotel Manager actually approved the closing every day? None of us will ever know the answer..

As far as auto tipping is concerned we balked at it when NCL first did it, but now come to realize it was the best thing to do..I wish the tips were included in the fare & would pay more to have them included..However also realize that most people would not pay it up front.. I've been cruising on HAL since the late 90's & absolutely know for a fact that many people did not tip at all...Also believe most of the crew is happy with the Auto-tipping..

Won't comment on others parts of the OP's original post as this post would be too long.. There will always will be reactionaries to changes.. Some of the changes I don't like, but realize that HAL is advertising in order to get younger people to cruise with them.. Lets face it, I may not be able to cruise in 20 years, & someone has to replace me..;) HAL ships are going out full, so they must be doing the right thing for their stockholders..

JMO..Betty

babyher

May 14th, 2007, 03:25 PM

If you stopped buying products and patronizeing businesses because of their unfair labor practices, You would be living in thatched hut in a loin cloth eating twigs and berries.

I am sure there are many many companies, (way more than the ones we constantly hear about ) that aren't all on the up and up in some way or another.

You have every right to boycott any company you choose , for whatever reason you choose.

I know HAL won't go belly up because I take my next cruise on another line.

I know the Walton family isn't going to end up on Welfare next week because I buy my paper towels, bottle of ketchup, and light bulbs somewhere else.

The Golden Arches aren't going to crumble because I had a Whopper for lunch instead.

I agree with Dave (dakrewser). Spend where you get the best value for your dollar.

Cruising Boomer

May 14th, 2007, 03:38 PM

hammybee

May 14th, 2007, 04:30 PM

Jazzsea,

I agree with you 100%. I started off with positive comments on HAL and expressed one concern. I then get attacked by two posters for my views. If I was snide, it was because they were condescending. I am outta here. I am in Paris for a month and have better things to do with my time then look at these negative boards!!!

Not agreeing with another poster is not a personal attack. It is a different point of view.

SabreSailor

May 14th, 2007, 04:55 PM

Opinions

May 14th, 2007, 04:58 PM

Not agreeing with another poster is not a personal attack. It is a different point of view.

In my opinion the use of the word "snide" is a personal attack.

hammybee

May 14th, 2007, 05:05 PM

In my opinion the use of the word "snide" is a personal attack.

Snide is an adjective. I did not use this adjective.

I responded to Boomer's perception that my perspective was one of two personal attacks. I do not attack posters, but I sometimes have a different perception.

gizmo

May 14th, 2007, 05:11 PM

My what a tirade! My point is that HAL touts the new tipping policy without telling you the whole story. Again, if the Indonesian crew is unhappy and leaves HAL, I will probably leave too because they make the curise enjoyable for us. If that is not a concern of yours, fine - stay with HAL. You have made my point - to each his own.

Doug

As much as I don't agree with everything Hal does or doesn't do, I do not believe the cruise line is responsible for "telling you the whole story".

They are not responsible for informing the public about their hiring contracts, salaries, who pays for air fare or uniforms.

hammybee

May 14th, 2007, 05:24 PM

In a world that is so dependent on information technology, it is unacceptable that a company like HAL would continue to have its computer operations so poorly managed. Testing is Rule One in information technology - and HAL management apparently hasn't read the book....

IT has not been one of HAL's strengths. Lack of adequate testing is usually the cause of end user problems. I have no idea if the lack of testing is intentional or not. More than likely, it's slop but I don't know because I am not a part of the team that released the software.

Testing has a cost and many companies balance the cost of testing with the risk of failure. By this I mean, will failure cause a financial loss to a company or its clients or increase liability? Some of the most common off the shelf software we use is plagued with problems and nuance so obvious to the most casual observer and yet it was not detected in testing or if it was, the business decision was made to release it anyway.

So if inadequate testing of non critical functions is grounds to terminate a CEO's employment contract, perhaps we might first call for the same at MICROSOFT, Oracle, SUN, JAVA, LINUX and so on.

I am sorry that you did not get your cruise documents until two days before you sailed. I too like getting mine several weeks before a cruise so I can fondle them and I do until they become dog-eared. I also know that if they do not arrive it has no bearing on my ability to board my cruise. In other words, the docs are not critical documentation.

dakrewser

May 14th, 2007, 07:47 PM

Jazzsea,

I agree with you 100%. I started off with positive comments on HAL and expressed one concern. I then get attacked by two posters for my views. If I was snide, it was because they were condescending. I am outta here. I am in Paris for a month and have better things to do with my time then look at these negative boards!!!

No one attacked "your views," simply disagreed with them. I did think that your comment "what a tirade" was snide. That's my opinion. But, perhaps you do need to get out of the kitchen for a bit....

;)

Jade13

May 14th, 2007, 10:02 PM

Aren't we the snide one. I'll bet you're even thinking of not getting gas on Tuesday to support the "oil boycott (http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_129015215.html)". Now I'm not trying to tell you where to shop or what to buy, and I've certainly stopped shopping at Circuit City because of their employee practices. Not that they've fired older employees, though, but because they now only hire untrained, uninformed people. You don't shop at MacDonalds or Walmart, but please don't expect that your action makes a bit of difference to their execs. Nor will a boycott of HAL make a difference. Except, of course, that you'll be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Spend your money where it makes the most economic sense to you, and let the market take care of the rest.

Oh Circuit City, they lost my business years ago. I brought back an item that was still in the package, unopened, had the receipt, and still being sold on the floor (one of those wall mounted TV stands) because I decided to get a larger TV. Because it was over 90 days they ABSOLUTELY refused to do a return even though I was fine with store credit. This was an item in perfect resale condition, not a scatch on the box. I wanted to purchase a more expensive item, ie give them more money. The Manager said no returns and no exchanges and they even had me in their system. So, I have never been back...

babyher

May 14th, 2007, 11:14 PM

Oh Circuit City, they lost my business years ago. I brought back an item that was still in the package, unopened, had the receipt, and still being sold on the floor (one of those wall mounted TV stands) because I decided to get a larger TV. Because it was over 90 days they ABSOLUTELY refused to do a return even though I was fine with store credit. This was an item in perfect resale condition, not a scatch on the box. I wanted to purchase a more expensive item, ie give them more money. The Manager said no returns and no exchanges and they even had me in their system. So, I have never been back...

Another member of the Circuit City Boycotters Club here.

I actually did get satisfaction with my problem, but only because a district manager happened to be visiting that store that day and heard me rant. :)

Otherwise the 2 girls at the service desk, the camera department manager, the asst. manager and store manager all ranged from useless, to ineffective, to catatonic, to just plain stupid and rude.

dougnewmanatsea

May 14th, 2007, 11:43 PM

I've been watching this discussion with some interest for a while. I had been meaning to give my opinion but I haven't been able to muster up the amount of energy to say just how much I disagree with a lot of the things said on this thread ;) .

However, I would like to take the time to talk a bit about deleted posts. I am afraid that those who mentioned in this thread that their posts had been deleted are mistaken. All of these members' posts on this thread remain intact.

We do ask that you not discuss post deletions or other moderation policies on the Boards, so if you have any other questions please feel free to e-mail myself or our Community Manager at community at cruisecritic dot com and we will be happy to help you.

fcorey

May 15th, 2007, 01:38 AM

I've been watching this discussion with some interest for a while. I had been meaning to give my opinion but I haven't been able to muster up the amount of energy to say just how much I disagree with a lot of the things said on this thread ;)

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this when you have time. I've seen some good arguments on both sides. Maybe the subject line was controversial enough to get some people off the fence and post. Open discussion on ideas about cruising is one of the great things about this board, some people just need to not take things so personally. :)

Sea King

May 15th, 2007, 07:04 AM

Let me add one more issue that has occurred on Stein Kruse's watch - information technology - i.e., computers. Does anyone recall that documentation nightmare that occurred a year ago when HAL went to its new reservation/documentation system that had been inadequately tested?

...

anyone out there ready to blame Stein Kruse for the selection of toilet paper?

how bout the soap?

any thoughts about napkins or bar stirrers?

and let's not forget lemonade cups?

isn't it time to say "enough is enough":eek:

it's so easy to be "perfect" when you pick a single subject and pick it apart

it's so easy to sit in your living room and tell the quarterback what play to call on 3rd and 4

with due respect, it's time to move on

sort of feel like the Board has become the House of Representatives and the Senate is out there ready to start the formal impeachment hearings .. last time I looked, Bill was heading to the "Hall of Fame" and Hillary was running for President:rolleyes:

let's get to more serious threads like: do you think the captain should "toot" 3 times instead of 2 when leaving Port Everglades?:)

what's your thoughts Mr. President to be;)

gizmo

May 15th, 2007, 07:18 AM

I am not sure if you are trying to be funny or sarcastic or both.

If the thread doesn't appeal to you, don't read it.

gizmo

May 15th, 2007, 07:32 AM

I just came across Brian's post and I agree.

Let me add one more issue that has occurred on Stein Kruse's watch - information technology - i.e., computers. Does anyone recall that documentation nightmare that occurred a year ago when HAL went to its new reservation/documentation system that had been inadequately tested? We got our docs with two days to spare on the Noordam transatlantic last year.

And how about all the complaints about the HAL website that has new features added that just don't work when they are released?

In a world that is so dependent on information technology, it is unacceptable that a company like HAL would continue to have its computer operations so poorly managed. Testing is Rule One in information technology - and HAL management apparently hasn't read the book....

Yes I remember. The odd part was Hal converted to the Princess reservations system. In this case, I believe it was more of a "conversion" problem rather than new software that did not work. It has worked for Princess for some time prior to Hal using it.

As far as Hal's web site goes, I agree. There is no reason that they should experience the number of problems that occur. It is VERY possible there is NO QA department. The person or persons handling the web site do it all.

peaches from georgia

May 15th, 2007, 10:11 AM

As long as HAL is profitable for Carnival Corp, Stein Kruse is going nowhere. When it's not, he will be gone. Whether you or I like every individual change to the cruiseline is beside the point. The HAL board is betting that this is what needs to be done for HAL to compete and that the majority of cruisers will like what they are doing, even if these are pax new to HAL and the more traditional HAL customer goes elsewhere.

HeatherInFlorida

May 15th, 2007, 10:26 AM

Whew! This topic got a bit fired up, didn't it?;)

Hammybee, I'm with you. I'm never quite sure why so many people seem to get so personally involved in criticizing the way HAL (CCL) chooses to run their cruise line. I just don't see it that much involvement in restaurants, resorts, etc.

As for boycotts, I used to boycott thinking I was making a statement. Finally I realized that in the long run we end up hurting the "little guy", the people who earn their living (whether we think it's sufficient or not) from these large companies. HAL, Walmart, Circuit City, etc., employ an awful lot of people who may not appreciate my boycott.

I was ready to boycott Citgo (because of Chavez), but remembered there are many small gas station owners who would be hurt in the process. So I don't boycott. When I get upset, I write letters. If enough people did this instead of boycotting, we might see more results.

As for HAL, as long as I can cruise on their ships and come away feeling I had a heck of a good time, I'll cruise on HAL. I read a lot of commentary by a few people here on the board about unhappy crew members on the ships and they may or may not exist (I suspect there are relatively few and you'll find disgruntled employees everywhere). But I haven't personally run into any of them. I've never met a crew member yet that didn't seem to take enormous pleasure in their work.

sail7seas

May 15th, 2007, 11:20 AM

anyone out there ready to blame Stein Kruse for the selection of toilet paper?

how bout the soap?

any thoughts about napkins or bar stirrers?

and let's not forget lemonade cups?

isn't it time to say "enough is enough":eek:

it's so easy to be "perfect" when you pick a single subject and pick it apart

it's so easy to sit in your living room and tell the quarterback what play to call on 3rd and 4

with due respect, it's time to move on

sort of feel like the Board has become the House of Representatives and the Senate is out there ready to start the formal impeachment hearings .. last time I looked, Bill was heading to the "Hall of Fame" and Hillary was running for President:rolleyes:

let's get to more serious threads like: do you think the captain should "toot" 3 times instead of 2 when leaving Port Everglades?:)

what's your thoughts Mr. President to be;)

SEA KING......... LOTS AND LOTS of Toots!!!

NEVER too many Toots.

Change the rythmn; change the number; make 'em longer', make 'em shorter but I sOOOOOO love it when Captain toots the ship's whistle.....or is it horn? :confused:

tech

May 15th, 2007, 12:55 PM

Some one mentioned "Free Ice Cream "

I am just asking...don't have a dog in the fight :)

How come free Ice Cream is such a talking point ?

It seems to be a rallying cry on so many cruiselines. :confused:

peaches from georgia

May 15th, 2007, 01:40 PM

How come free Ice Cream is such a talking point ?

:confused:
As is Free Popcorn at HAL movies. I'm thinking the draw is the word 'free'. :D

sab490

May 15th, 2007, 02:00 PM

As is Free Popcorn at HAL movies. I'm thinking the draw is the word 'free'. :D

....and "free" is certainly more appealing than "no additional charge". Believe me....the ice cream and popcorn are not "free". They are just paid for in advance as part of your fare. ;)

- Steve

Copper10-8

May 15th, 2007, 04:54 PM

SEA KING......... LOTS AND LOTS of Toots!!!

NEVER too many Toots.

Change the rythmn; change the number; make 'em longer', make 'em shorter but I sOOOOOO love it when Captain toots the ship's whistle.....or is it horn? :confused:

It's the ship's whistle but it sounds like a horn;)

Favorite one is:

Da
Da
Da
Da
Da

Da
Daaaa

hammybee

May 15th, 2007, 04:57 PM

It's the ship's whistle but it sounds like a horn;)

Favorite one is:

Da
Da
Da
Da
Da

Da
Daaaa

I don't agree with this. It's sounds more like :

Doe
Doe
DOOOOOOE :)

sail7seas

May 15th, 2007, 05:03 PM

:) Let's hope it's not six short and a looooooong!

sail7seas

May 15th, 2007, 05:04 PM

:D Shave and a Haircut, two bits. :D

Copper10-8

May 15th, 2007, 05:10 PM

I don't agree with this. It's sounds more like :

Doe
Doe
DOOOOOOE :)

No more Wang Wang's for you, Hammy!:)

HeatherInFlorida

May 15th, 2007, 05:54 PM

I consider the entire cruise free. I paid a couple of months before for transportation to some islands.

The room, the food, the entertainment, the service, everything else is free:D .

That's why you don't see me complain very much about anything!

Bill S

May 17th, 2007, 12:26 AM

Brian-just returned from the Zaandam today and read your post a short time ago and the responding posts, too! Very thought provoking post and interesting thread. I have to wonder about some of the changes, too.

This was our first cruise on a HAL ship with the spa-modification - and as I watched the Zaandam sail into Vancouver harbor last week, I was struck with how the spa addition detracts from the otherwise "clean" design of forward superstructure. Just awful, IMO.

Also, I was totally surprised when on Monday night, the Master Chef Dinner was presented--I, too, had thought this dreadful idea (IMO) had been canned, but alas, it was still "alive" on the Zaandam! It was the first time we had witnessed it and I could not believe how hokey this was--especially because it was also a formal night. The food was excellent, however!

We noticed changes in a few areas that we were not wild about and I will address those in another thread.

Copper10-8

May 17th, 2007, 01:58 AM

...........it's so easy to sit in your living room and tell the quarterback what play to call on 3rd and 4;)..................

3rd and 4?? Piece of cake! Try 3rd and 27!:eek:

Sea King

May 17th, 2007, 07:11 AM

3rd and 4?? Piece of cake! Try 3rd and 27!:eek:

Copper: 3rd and 27 is easy call: everyone, I mean everyone, goes deep and leaps at the same time; hopefully QB can throw that far:D

eh2zed

May 17th, 2007, 08:58 AM

This is a very interesting thread. On the one hand every company must operate profitably and the cruise industry is definitely going mainstream with mass appeal while on the other hand HAL wants to portray a "cut above" image. Just came off the Rotterdam Black Sea Egypt on Monday and now back home. This was our 13th HAL. The changes are obvious and certainly worrisome for those cruisers who have enjoyed the HAL experience for some time.
While the food was good and the Indonesian staff are still attentive there is clearly a shift to more revenue generation. Its not just the $30 Pinnacle surcharge but also things like Park West being able to book out the Crow's Nest twice during scenic cruising through the Dardenelles and Bosphorus Strait, once during a rain storm. Park West (aka revenue) took precedence over passengers. To me this was inexcusable. Shore excursions are getting more and more costly. When you go to Egypt they know you want to go to Cairo. Nothing under $250. We used private tours everywhere with great success in Turkey, Greece, Egypt and Rhodes for much less money with private car and local guide.
But maybe the best indication of how the HAL attitude has changed was in Rhodes when an announcement was made at All Aboard time that we would be leaving late because some guests were arriving from the airport. Since Rhodes was not an embarkation port many wondered who was arriving and so possibly as many as 50 late dining passengers hung over the railing on the Promenade deck to see who was so important that the ship would wait. We knew they must be important folk since the Hotel Manager and other senior staff were awaiting their arrival. Over an hour after All Aboard a taxi pulled up and the first occupant out of the car could easily be heard to joke "Are we late". After greetings from the senior staff and bellboys carrying luggage they were whisked aboard. The next day we arrived at our next port an hour late on an already short port stay. We later found out that the special guests were corporate HAL employees, one apparently the VP Operations. In sum this wasn't a great inconvenience but to me it clearly represented the changing HAL corporate attitude.

kryos

May 17th, 2007, 12:53 PM

Over an hour after All Aboard a taxi pulled up and the first occupant out of the car could easily be heard to joke "Are we late". After greetings from the senior staff and bellboys carrying luggage they were whisked aboard. The next day we arrived at our next port an hour late on an already short port stay. We later found out that the special guests were corporate HAL employees, one apparently the VP Operations. In sum this wasn't a great inconvenience but to me it clearly represented the changing HAL corporate attitude.
If this had been you or me, we'd have gotten out of that taxi to an empty berth. That ship would be gone. I know this for a fact, because we left three passengers in Rome on my Veendam TransAtlantic last month. They had to get to the next port of call to meet the ship at their own expense.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Krazy Kruizers

May 17th, 2007, 01:00 PM

I have been reading this thread for some time now. Yes, there have been a lot of changes on HAL the last couple of years and we all don't and won't agree that they are for the better.

But - one thing I would like to see come back -- bring back more REAL flowers all over the ships!! Get rid of those plastic things.

kryos

May 17th, 2007, 01:08 PM

I too have read some of the posts relative to changes made for the crew. I have also read the link that Brian provided on a different thread that balanced some of these perceptions. I do not work for HAL or onboard a HAL ship, so I don't know what the deal is. And frankly, it's none of my business.

When I dine out I do not ask the waitstaff if they paid for their uniforms or transportation. When I stay at a hotel I do not ask hotel employees personal questions and would be disinclined to listen to a tale of woe, if they chose to offer one.

I can't help but come back to the same conclusion. If the employees in these service positions are still working on HAL ships, despite these "new" rules, then clearly it is to their advantage to do so. Otherwise, they would have been gone. Otherwise, HAL would never have put these changes in place because the line would know that they would lose all their good employees if they did.

I will be the first to agree that HAL's service staff works very, very hard. I know I couldn't put in the hours that they do ... and do it with a smile and a good attitude. However, I also understand that they make some very, very good money ... especially since the auto-tip program went into effect. Where at one time they got tips from passengers that were totally at the passengers' discretion ... and yes, you'd better believe that a lot of passengers tipped very poorly, if at all ... they now get almost a "guaranteed" tip amount each week, IN ADDITION to what passengers decide to tip them above and beyond that amount.

So, I'd be willing to wager that HAL's service employees ... at least the very good ones ... are bringing home a very, very nice wage each week ... far more than most non-service employees make. And, for that reason, HAL has found it only fair to make them pay for their uniforms and their flights home. After all, if they were working at land-based establishments, they would have to pay for their uniforms. They would also have to pay their commuting expenses.

Believe me, if HAL's service staff remains onboard despite these changes, you can bet your bottom dollar that they are only doing so because it is to their advantage. Simply put, they could not make anywhere near that amount of money working in their home countries ... or even in other land-based resorts here in the U.S.

So, while yes, it would be nice if HAL didn't charge them for these things, I have a feeling HAL is not asking a lot when they changed the policy. If it were not so, those service people would have bolted the day after the new policy went into effect.

Blue skies ...

--rita

serendipity1499

May 17th, 2007, 02:26 PM

Touche' Rita..I agree 100%:) Betty

eh2zed

May 17th, 2007, 03:16 PM

If this had been you or me, we'd have gotten out of that taxi to an empty berth. That ship would be gone. I know this for a fact, because we left three passengers in Rome on my Veendam TransAtlantic last month. They had to get to the next port of call to meet the ship at their own expense.

Blue skies ...

--rita

To me the incident while not huge clearly indicates the corporate over customer shift taking place.

HeatherInFlorida

May 17th, 2007, 04:30 PM

I agree with these thoughts by Rita and Hammybee. I think I said so before, but I was giving it more thought and realized that so often people on the outskirts of a situation will often make a judgment truly believing they're reacting in the best interest of those involved.

But often when we stick our noses in areas that are truly none of our business, we only end up hurting the very people we're trying to help.

In this case, many HAL service employees are sending home very welcome $$$ to their families who need them. Sometimes we really should leave well enough alone.

I always try to remember that what many fortunate Americans may view as very low pay is not viewed that way in many other parts of the world.

eh2zed

May 18th, 2007, 07:51 AM

Krazy Kruizers

May 18th, 2007, 07:56 AM

When we got back from our Volendam cruises in Nov and our Maasdam cruises in March, we did get the Welcome Home e-mail - but no ship board credit offers. There was a big discussion about this a few weeks ago on this board.

RevNeal

May 18th, 2007, 11:20 AM

Having been gone for nearly two weeks, this has been the first opportunity I've had to actually sit down and read through this entire thread.

Wow! :eek:

Brian, there are many points of your OP with which I agree, and there are some which I find a bit over-stated. And, let me add that I don't agree that Mr. Kruse should "go." I have made it no secret that I suspect that HALHQ is passing out stupid pills to the land-based administrative staff. For example, I suspect that someone did that to the team that designed the extension on the forward Lido Deck of the S and R ships (that extension which so horribly spoiled the forward view from the Crows Nest and makes the ships look like they're wearing a pair of glasses). We can all name other administrative and service-oriented changes which are NOT "for the better" and in no-wise "improved" the Line (though some of them might have improved the bottom dollar). Being a stockholder myself, I want HAL to make money. But I also want the class and style of the ships and the excellence of the Line's service to also be maintained.

I don't know where I'm going with this post, and am probably doing nothing but gushing a stream of consciousness. Frankly, I desperately need a cruise. November 3 wont' get here soon enough. I'm trying to get Mom to come with us ... but I don't think she will.

Ga_Crusin

May 18th, 2007, 03:38 PM

I'm not sure where the various posters get the idea that HAL is cheaper than other lines for kids, but in my experience that's not true. I travel with two kids, so I watch the kids fares quite closely. Sometimes I can find a competitive rate on HAL, but generally Princess and RCCL are much cheaper for the 3/4 passengers.

I think that the big problem is that most people just won't pay for the ammeneties like fresh flowers. Most cruisers care about price, itinerary and price. I took my first HAL cruise in the early 90's, and the quality has certainly slipped since then (I miss the little coasters with the ship's picture more than the fresh flowers). But I think that if HAL is going to have the nice, new ships I enjoy, that's going to mean offering a price low enough to fill it up. And, sadly, that means cutting out some benefits I like.

It's just like the airlines. Everyone complains about the lack of food and legroom, but when the airlines offer more legroom for $5 or a lunch for $7, no one will pay. So we get scrunched because we're, as a group, too cheap to pay for bigger seats.

Here's the question to ask about the pay of the staff: Is this your first contract. Because if they're on their 2nd (or more) contract, they find that the job is better than their alternatives. If the staff stop coming back, HAL will pay more.

babyher

May 18th, 2007, 03:59 PM

Greg,

Good to see you back :)

I know this is the tough time for you and your family, trying to get back to "normal" after everything that has happened. Its a huge adjustment for all of you. Give Mom some time. I went through it with mine after my dad died. At first she was like a zombie, but little by little ,at her own pace ,she got back into life again. As you and your family have been these past few weeks , you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Back on Topic.....

Heather,

I fully agree with both yours and Ritas last posts.

When you see people working as hard as the ship staff do and for what we consider long hours and very low pay, (especially jobs we say we wouldn't do for "a million dollars"). Its easy , sometimes out of a sense of justice for all , sometimes out of a sense of guilt, to take up the cause for the downtrodden as we may picture them to be.

HeatherInFlorida

May 18th, 2007, 05:26 PM

Welcome back, Greg. Been thinking of you and it's good to see you back.

This thread has been on my mind more than most because it bothers me that anyone here on CC feels we're in a position to decide whether or not Stein Kruse should hold his current position at HAL.

In the end, we can either choose to cruise HAL or not. How many do that will reflect how good a job Mr. Kruse is doing for the company. I still think it's a bit presumptious for any of us to toss this around.

None of us are forced up the gangway of HAL's ships. There's tons of other choices out there and if any of us think we'd be happier on another ship, hop aboard!:)

But no matter how much some of us may miss some things from days gone by, HAL is going to cater to the majority and not to our individual preferences.

And, truthfully, whether I like it or not that's how it should be.

u4ea

May 18th, 2007, 06:44 PM

This thread has been on my mind more than most because it bothers me that anyone here on CC feels we're in a position to decide whether or not Stein Kruse should hold his current position at HAL.

In the end, we can either choose to cruise HAL or not. How many do that will reflect how good a job Mr. Kruse is doing for the company. I still think it's a bit presumptious for any of us to toss this around.

Hello Heather, I enjoy your posts.
Agreed, but, I think the OP was using some hyperbole, and just doing a venting thread. No big deal. It's just talk.
Mark…

Jade13

May 18th, 2007, 07:02 PM

Has anyone else had this experience. We took our children and grandchildren on the Zuiderdam in March; 12 passengers in total. Shortly after our return I received an email from Stein Kruse thanking us for our loyalty. In return for updating my Mariner profile, I would qualify for a $100 shipboard credit on our next cruise if booked by a June date. As chance would have it we had booked the May 2 Rotterdam Black Sea and we asked our TA to apply the promotion. The only qualifier on the promotion was that it understandably could not be combined with any other shipboard credit offer. There was no other reference to any other general restrictions. Well you guessed it. HAL found a way to deny it. Because we had purchased this cruise on a 5 day flash it was not available. After a few emails and 1-800 calls and communicating with people that told me mostly I needed to talk to someone else and just a few days before our departure I sent Mr. Kruse a letter. I received his Assistant's response yesterday. Most an unsatisfactory form letter. The $100 is not the point. We are not wealthy but do cruise usually 3X per year. I wouldn't have bothered to apply if the promotion had even the "certain restrictions apply" disclaimer. It is just another example of how the Customer first attitude is changing. Anyone else had a similar experience and did you get an satisfaction?

Yes! I got a letter from his assistant which actually did not make sense. Try leaving her a detailed message. I have left two (the second saying that I wasn't sure if she received the first one) and no return back.

Btw, the $100 promotion is kind of dumb considering I received one in the mail a couple days ago showing $300 (outside), $500 (Verandah) and $1,000 (Suite) if you book a Med for 2008 by mid May. So, sending you a voucher for $100 (that has a no combination restriction) makes no sense if you want to go back to the Med and already have a better offer. And, he should be thanking you for 16 cruises and bringing a family of 12 this year too. He should not be sending out Vouchers with retrictions. You are either thanking a VERY loyal customer or you aren't. I can imagine the cost to take your family of 12 on a cruise.

HeatherInFlorida

May 18th, 2007, 07:56 PM

Hello Heather, I enjoy your posts.
Agreed, but, I think the OP was using some hyperbole, and just doing a venting thread. No big deal. It's just talk.
Mark…

Thanks, Mark!:) And you're quite right ... it's all just talk. Isn't that what we all do best here???:D

Still, I guess I'm just sensitive to people's feelings and I'd sure hate to see a thread somewhere saying "Is it time for Heather to find a new job???";)
(fortunately for me that can never happen again in my lifetime ....)

eh2zed

May 20th, 2007, 02:29 PM

Yes! I got a letter from his assistant which actually did not make sense. Try leaving her a detailed message. I have left two (the second saying that I wasn't sure if she received the first one) and no return back.

Btw, the $100 promotion is kind of dumb considering I received one in the mail a couple days ago showing $300 (outside), $500 (Verandah) and $1,000 (Suite) if you book a Med for 2008 by mid May. So, sending you a voucher for $100 (that has a no combination restriction) makes no sense if you want to go back to the Med and already have a better offer. And, he should be thanking you for 16 cruises and bringing a family of 12 this year too. He should not be sending out Vouchers with retrictions. You are either thanking a VERY loyal customer or you aren't. I can imagine the cost to take your family of 12 on a cruise.

You hit the nail on the head Jade13. Why do they send these promotions out if you can never use the. Either its clever markeing or intentionally deceptive. I may follow up with her again but my chances are likely between nil and none. We have an New Zealand/Australia Statendam on option currently. Maybe that will mean something