Need An Honest Answer

[Fit Heart]

Greetings,

First let me say how much I've appreciated reading the messages and the advice here. I'm planning a trip on the Zuiderdam on December 4, 2004 for my birthday and my other half's Christmas present. The information I have found on here on the Zuiderdam has been very helpful. I really like the sound of the ship and the Deluxe Verandah Suite was a great value. Now here is a question I'm sure you don't get everyday, but I'm hoping you'll be considerate and honest in your answers. I'm Michael and my other half is also a Michael. We're 45 (I'll be 46 on the trip) and 51, down to earth, nice and normal guys. We're looking for a relaxing time together, but also an opportunity to meet some nice people to share the cruise experience with. We're not in search of other gay couples/friends necessarily, just nice people. We enjoy socializing with human beings, all preferences aside. I guess my question to which I was hoping for an honest answer is, "how do you think we will be received on the Zuiderdam by crew and guests?" I have traveled Royal Caribbean before and it wasn't an issue, and I'm hoping that it would be the same on HAL. To me, diversity is the spice of life, but I'm curious as to anyone's thoughts here on this issue. Thanks for taking the time to consider my question.

Kind Regards

[debblue]

i don't think you will have a problem most passengers on the hal ships are fun and enjoy meeting people so go and have:) a great time and enjoy yourself.happy cruising.

[cactuslady]

What kind of "issue" are you expecting? The Washington D.C. Gay Men's Chorus booked a group cruise on the Ryndam (on which I was on board) and, as far as I could tell, all enjoyed it. We shared a table with a similar couple (different first names, though) at the suite dinner on the Statendam last time, and they also seemed to be enjoying their trip.

I imagine you might run into a few people who get the two of you confused with each other, but you've probably worked out the "same name" difficulties by now.

[hdawson]

I would expect no problems at all. You're welcome at my table anytime.

[Mary Ellen]

I can't imagine the crew would treat you any differently. I would hope other pax would treat you just like other passengers, but who knows who else will be on the ship (ANY ship) with you.

A few years ago, my neighbor and I took a cruise together, as our DHs weren't available. I'm sure other passengers didn't know our 'orientation' (and its none of their business anyway), but I didn't didn't notice anyone treating us any different than when I'm with husband.

My best dining table was on that cruise - and it was also the most diverse mix of passengers I've ever had the pleasure of being seated with.

Go, enjoy yourselves. If anyone has a 'issue', it is THEIR problem.

[Krazy Kruizers]

:)

You should not have any problems!

Years ago there was a gay couple seated at our tabel and we got along fine with them. All we talked about was our pre cruise tours that we had done, None of us knew each other so we just exchanged notes and etc.

On our last cruise in May on the Maadam we met a gay couple who attended a wine dinner with us, a few suite parties, and a private party. We all had a great time.

And HAL treated them like any other passenger. We have always found the HAL crew to friendly to everyone.

You both will love HAL.

:)

[Typhoon1]

Rest assured there will be numerous other gay couples onboard and gay crew members as well.

We have sailed the Zuiderdam on a RSVP charter, it is a great ship. You'll have a great time. Enjoy!! :D :D

[Fit Heart]

I'm appreciating the feedback so much. Your comments mean a lot to me. It's not that I would expect an issue on HAL. Quite the opposite, I would expect cruisers to be quite welcoming. I guess I just wanted to hear some thoughts. I'd like this to be a special trip. It will be a first cruise together. Your thoughtul replies are making me more anxious than ever.

Thanks much...

[Jacqueline]

My sense is that cruiseships are a popular form of vacation travel for gays and that HAL is not much different than any of the other lines we have been on.
For what its worth, my kids and younger people seem even more comfortable with this than we were at that age. When I went to pick up my daughter at camp this weekend, one of the girls had made a big sign with a word that is used in Holland to hold back the waters (she made it and put it there . As Carolyn said to me, Erica just wanted everyone to know that she is gay.

[Esme]

Michael - go and have a great time - no one will care. We've been on lots of cruises with gay couples and I can honestly say they were so much nicer to be with than some hetros, who can tend to be crabby and complaining all the time.

By the way, lots of the crew are gay.

Have a very HAPPY BIRTHDAY! :)

[lknick]

How would anyone know unless you were to wear a sign.

Been on many HAL ships and never knew what orientation, religion, citizenship or political belief anyone held unless they told me...and some did.

My only question was 'are they fun to be around?'

Esme--how would you know "lots of the crew are gay"?

[Orcrone]

I'm sure that there are some people who would not be too happy, but that's the case no matter where you are. But they'll probably just leave you alone and they'll be in the minority. I was trying to convince my brother and his partner to join us on our next cruise so I posted a similar question on the gay and lesbian board on this site. The overwhelming response was that many gay couples only went on straight cruises and had a great time.

On a seperate note it must drive people crazy when they're speaking to one of you and say Michael, and then both of you answer.:D

[stillfrantic]

I have not been on HAL yet, but on other lines, and my husband and I would be pleased to sit with someone as articulate and kind as you appear in your post. I wouldn't expect a problem at all, and with the exception of the people you are seated with for dinner, if someone does cause a stir, you're not likely to run into them again anyway.

Have a wonderful trip, and speaking as a spouse that was also surprised with the cruise as a gift, your other half willl love it!

[Fit Heart]

Stillfrantic, thank you so much for the kind words. I'm hopeful my future tablemates will be as kind and welcoming as your response. Actually that goes for all of your responses. The responses here are a testimony to the goodness of people, unlike what we are usually exposed to by our media. It's great to hear the positive responses.

Thanks again!!!

[idiebabe]

I'm real happy to see the response to Michael's post. My husband and I are sailing on HAL on the Zui for the first time (it will be our 14th cruise) and I was ready to cancel after reading some of the snooty and negative posts on other HAL threads.

I think the main thing is that everyone enjoy themselves and have a GREAT time. You'd be welcome at our table anytime, Michael.

Enjoy your cruise!!!

Eileen

[DFD1]

Thinking, intelligent, worthwhile people could not care less....and the others don't matter anyway. GO! It's a fine ship. Have a blast !

[ASM]

I don't think you need to be concerned. I do think You'll LOVE the ship and the cruise. Best wishes!

[superstein61]

As long as you don't care if I don't wear formal wear :) - I'd be happy to have you join our dinner table if we were on the same cruise

Plus how is anyone going to know anyway unless you advertise the fact.

[Traveller1]

We just got off the Rotterdam on 10th July--I'd like to let you know that there was a Friends of Dorothy meeting advertised in the daily newspaper--there was even champagne at it and it happened again on the second part of the cruise--that's how welcoming HAL is these days. Have a wonderful cruise.

[kryos]

I'm appreciating the feedback so much. Your comments mean a lot to me. It's not that I would expect an issue on HAL. Quite the opposite, I would expect cruisers to be quite welcoming. I guess I just wanted to hear some thoughts. I'd like this to be a special trip. It will be a first cruise together. Your thoughtul replies are making me more anxious than ever.

Relax, you will both love cruising and I can't imagine anyone will give a crap about your sexual orientation. They'll be too busy trying to have a good time and will welcome the both of you to share in it.

That's the thing I most noticed on my first cruise ... the exceptional friendliness of everyone I met. Conversations starting up with people you only just met. Folks from your table at dinner inviting you to join them at the show or for a drink afterwards. Especially in my case, as someone traveling solo, my whole cruise experience was a revelation. I finally found the ideal environment for the single traveler!

Just be friendly and open to meeting new people and you'll both have a great time.

Blue skies ... and happy cruising ...

--rita

[RevNeal]

Dear Fit Heart,

Allow me to answer your question by telling a little story. There was a very wonderful gay couple on my cruise to Hawaii in 2002. The younger fellow was, originally, from Hong Kong, while the older one was originally from the UK. They both lived and worked in Canada (Victoria), and were celebrating their 30th year together by making that cruise. While I had noticed them around the ship during the crossing to the islands, it wasn't until we were on a tour in Hilo that I actually had a chance to chat with them. What an interesting and very pleasant couple to be around!

At lunch in the Lido, on the afternoon we began the return trip to San Diego, they both put their trays down across from me and sat down. They had a question, and they felt comfortable enough to ask my opinion. They made it clear that they wanted my pastoral opinion, and as bluntly honest as I felt I needed to be.

"We want to know what people would think if we decided to dance together in the Ocean or Piano Bar. Do you think there would be a problem?"

I chewed some ice and gave that question at least 30 seconds of serious thought. Here are two guys, one in his very early 50s and the other in his late 50s or very early 60s, both on a ship full of people most of whom feel comfortable just "being themselves" in public, and not caring what other people are doing. Yet, sadly, these two men were afraid of what others on board might do or say if they were to openly express the same kind of affection for each other that heterosexual couples felt no fear expressing in public. I couldn't help myself ... I blerted out: "Whatever anyone might think, it's none of their business."

"But what might they do or say?" Kai (the one from Hong Kong) asked.

"Who gives a diddly-[remark and an additional sentence edited out by the author]. If you feel comfortable holding hands, or even dancing with each other, in public, I'd say GO FOR IT."

They did ... the first formal night on the return-trip to San Diego. Three couples were cutting the rug in the Piano Bar, and this sweet gay couple joined them. No one got red-faced and stormed out of the Bar. No one said anything ... nothing, at least, that I could hear. Oh, I'm sure that some were probably offended, and I'm sorry if that was the case, but at least those who might have been offended kept quiet about it and tended to their own affairs. I'm offended by people who don't use deoderant, or who yell at their children in public, but I keep my mouth shut.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is on the "sin" subject ... what was important was that two people, who loved each other and who were celebrating 30 years of a faithful life together, were wanting to be themselves, participate in the social life of the ship, and celebrate without always having to hide it. And they did. And no one was hurt.

Sermon's over. I can't take up an offering ... but, in the true tradition of cruising, tips are always appreciated. :D

[kryos]

Sermon's over. I can't take up an offering ... but, in the true tradition of cruising, tips are always appreciated. :D
How about a hearty AMEN! instead?

Excellent post, Rev!

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

We just got off the Rotterdam on 10th July--I'd like to let you know that there was a Friends of Dorothy meeting advertised in the daily newspaper--there was even champagne at it and it happened again on the second part of the cruise--that's how welcoming HAL is these days. Have a wonderful cruise.
Forgive my ignorance ... but what is Friends of Dorothy?

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Lois R]

:) Rev, wonderful story! By the way....in the few weeks I have been on here, I want to let you know I enjoy your posts very much.

Rita, I believe there are meetings for gay and lesbian cruisers....and that is the title of the group.

And Michael...oops both Michaels....you can join my table anytime:D . Oh...I am sailing in Sept....that would be a problem....you are going in Decemeber!....
Have a great cruise!

[Jacqueline]

Rev, but if I tip you wont you have to pool it ! ?

[RevNeal]

Rev, but if I tip you wont you have to pool it ! ?

hehehehe ... Chaplains aren't included in those rules!!!! ;)
Besides ... I'm more interested in tips that can't be pooled ... like:

"Sell Enron"
"Eat at Marios, found at the intersection of 7th and Vine."
"Always hit on an 11"
"Your fly is open" :D

etc.

[RevNeal]

Lois,

Thank you, thank you, and welcome to HAL. :) I pray your cruise on the Zuiderdam is smooth and a great joy!

[RevNeal]

kryos,

Thank you! :)

Lois is correct about the meaning of the "Friends of Dorothy" group ... it's a gathering of gay and lesbian cruisers ("Dorothy" = Julie Garland ... get it?). Don't worry, it had to be explained to me, too. :D

[Esme]

'

Esme--how would you know "lots of the crew are gay"?

Because I happen to know quite a few and have known them for years and they are good friends to my husband and I. Also did you not read that "typhoonwi" said the same thing? Re-read his post, please.

[Fit Heart]

RevNeal,

What a great story...thanks for taking the time to share that experience. In a world that can sometimes focus too much on our differences, it is nice to hear such a tale of just wanting the ability to be treated like everyone else. How lovely dancing the night away with someone you care about sounds. I often think if we as human beings focused our energies more on loving and accepting, rather than judging and fearing, what a beautiful existence we'd share together. I guess that's the answer to World Peace, huh? Seriously, thank you for your story/sermon. It has strengthened my "faith" that I've made the right decision to share this experience with Michael.

[Lois R]

Rev, you should think about being the "Welcoming Committe" for this board:)
(or at least the Chairmen)....oh ok, if we are going to be politically correct...the chairperson;) ...just kidding folks:D .

Anyway....I hope my first HAL cruise will be a great experience too! I have a friend who sailed the Zuiderdam last summer.....she loved it and keeps giving me positive thoughts about my adventure to a new line and ship:) ....cruising brings out the best in me....so I am sure I will have fun!

[elmorejj]

Many hetro women dance together....especially in Europe where I`m from.....and no one thinks anything about it. Why should it be any different if two men dance together? Michael, you would be so welcome to share a table in the lounges with us, its a shame we aren`t on the same cruise. I am also from the Columbus area...Go Bucks!!!.....jean

[Leslieswiger]

Dear Michael,

Peter and I will have our 44th anniversary on our April 15th cruise with the Amsterdam. We have done several cruises and NEVER had any problems.:)
However, I would say that REVNEAL, TYPHOONWI, DFD1 and IKNICK hit the subject on the nose.
Just be yourself and SHOW RESPECT for others.
St. Paul: Faith, hope and LOVE, these three - and the greatest of these is LOVE.:)
Enjoy yourselves and all the best for the future.:)

[peaches from georgia]

What a nice thread this has turned out to be. Of course you will have no problem on a HAL ship, nor should you. On the first week of our Oosterdam b2b we were at a table for 8. The most delightful couple at the table were 2 gentlemen from Toronto. DH and I ended up meeting them almost every day for lunch in the Lido we had such a good time together.

It sure makes you wonder why some politicians underestimate what I believe to be the majority of people and try to make gay couples an issue in this election. :mad:

Have a great cruise, Michael(s).

[Sue's Mom]

Michael x 2, I hope you have a great cruise.

[iluvcruzin]

Michael & Michael. This is your vacation and you can make it the best ever without concerns of others. I've been in an interracial relationship for many years. I used to look at people's faces and reactions. Now I guess I just don't pay any attention. On cruises we've never had stares or people walking away. Keith and I are very articulate and take the opportunity to chat with the masses. I think overall most cruise ships include a large diverse clientel. I have not sailed HAL yet. I'm sure I'll run into people like the "S" club on this board who may turn up a nose or think it's novel to have a conversation with the "interacial couple" as a momento of their trip. But I think that's the minority. Overall everyone is there to have a great time just like the 2 of you. If you ever sail with us we'd be pleased to meet you.

[tworoberts]

Dear Michael & Michael:

As another gay couple, we have enjoyed many HAL cruise without the slightest problem. Yes, we dance together in the Crows Nest at night and no one cares. Crew is delightful, friendly and very helpful. Cabin stewards have the beds moved together before we even get to the room on embarkation day.(Usually a suite). Our fellow passangers either are very friendly or pay no attention. Two cruises ago we met a straight mother & daughter who who do alot of HAL cruising, we became great friends and have just planned our third cruise together (January Rotterdam -- 10 days from FLL). Now don't go on HAL expecting a lively party atmosphere but do go on HAL expecting a refined, understated quality cruise experience. Sometimes we are the only gay couple aborad (not counting crew, staff or entertainers) and sometimes (but not ofter) there are gay groups aboard. Frankly, I'm not sure why HAL is not more popular with gay cruisers since the ships are often chartered for gay only groups and these gay group cruises are very popular. The ship's staff love gay cruisers -- we're more fun and always tip more! Enoy your HAL cruise; you won't be sorry for booking with HAL.

Robert & Robert

[Fit Heart]

Robert & Robert,

Now how can a Michael & Michael not be thankful for the advice from a Robert & Robert. Roberts, thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. I wasn't looking for a wild party time. That is why I was exploring HAL. I've heard nice things, and I like the thought of more traditional style cruising. On my first (and only) cruise, the most friendly and memorable friends I made we're in the 55 and over category, even though there were plenty of folks my age and younger. The reason I enjoyed the cruise experience so much was that everyone was just there to relax and have fun. It is nice to seek out people different from you with various backgrounds. You learn far more from them that way. It would be nice to have other gay people to socialize with, but as you know, gay people, just like straight people come in all types. There is no guarantee there would be a good connection with others just because they are gay. Thanks again for the thoughtful insight and your time to do so.

Kind Regards,
Michael & Michael

[peaches from georgia]

....I'm sure I'll run into people like the "S" club on this board who may turn up a nose or think it's novel to have a conversation with the "interacial couple" as a momento of their trip....

:confused: I don't think I've ever heard of the "S" club on this board or anywhere else, but it certainly sounds like you are insulting people here and I don't know why. Would you please explain. Hopefully you did not mean this comment the way it reads, but if you did I think it's uncalled for.

[Typhoon1]

Well done Greg :) :)

[gliles]

M&M -

We have been on 8 cruises and there has yet to be one where we didn't meet at least one gay or lesbian couple. We work in the travel industry so know how to "spot" them ;) . We have always made friends with them and had a better time with them than anyone else. If any of them ever felt unwelcome, we sure weren't aware and yes, we would see them dance together and the only thing that bothered me about seeing that is the fact that my DH and I can't dance!

You will have a great time. Gay couples tend to cruise and take good vacations because they are typically DINKs so I am sure you will meet other gay couples if you wish.

Gay couples also don't tend to bore you with stories about their kids, etc. I know, I have kids and bore others talking about them!

PS. I work with a Michael who's partner is also named Michael, I also know a John & John and a David & David...can someone explain that to me? Does it save on towels, stationary, and other personalized items? :D

[HeatherInFlorida]

Fit Heart, I am saddened that you should even have to ask this question. The concern should never have to cross your mind. But I'm comfortable telling you that if there is a place on earth where you can go and not be judged, I would hope it's on a cruiseline such as Holland America. I think we're just better people out there on the sea.

I wish you hadn't felt the need to ask, that you could just go on your cruise filled with anticipation for a wonderful time and not worry about a thing. Still, we all get on the ship with just a bit of trepidition ... will we meet people we like? will we get along with our tablemates? In +20 years my husband and I have never been disappointed and we've never had tablemates we did not like. I think it's amazing I can make that statement. I hope you'll be able to say the same thing.

And we would be honored to have you both at our table anytime. Hope to see you on the high seas one day. Have a wonderful cruisehttp://boards2.cruisecritic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[iluvcruzin]

:confused: I don't think I've ever heard of the "S" club on this board or anywhere else
If you'd really like to know, post a temporary e-mail address and I'll send you an explaination. It's something unique to this HAL board. I don't believe my comments were uncalled for - maybe just something you don't clearly understand as not having experienced my lifestyle or understand what I've observed the past few weeks. I'd be glad to share outside this thread as not to make it become off topic.

[intractv]

Michael

My name is John and I wil be celebrating my 40th birthday on the December 4th sailing of the Zuiderdam. It was a gift from my partner of 11 years, Ron.

This will be our second cruise, and our first HAL experience. Our first cruise was aboard the RCCL Navigator of the Seas with a group of 18 friends and family. We had a spectacular time. On the Zuiderdam it will just be the two of us.

I think the most important thing to do is to be yourself enjoy the experience. Everyone is there to have a good time.

I have started a roll call thread for our cruise so feel free to join the conversation. So far I haven't found any fellow travellers!

[peaches from georgia]

If you'd really like to know, post a temporary e-mail address and I'll send you an explaination. I'd be glad to share outside this thread as not to make it become off topic.Thank you, iluvcruzin. I agree it is better to have off-topic or personal discussions off the board.

[johng75370]

I've been on two HAL cruises (Zaandam and Veendam) with family, but didn't notice any issues...in fact each time saw gay couples (a few) having a great time. Based on that my partner and I are off on the Zuiderdam's 8/28 sailing and are looking forward to 7 days of pure relaxation; hope you and Michael find the same. Prepare to come back with lots of great "couple" pictures!

Peace,
John

[Joedog]

I think we're just better people out there on the sea.

I couldnt agree with you more Heather. That's one of the reasons I was in the Navy for so long. Must be the salt air, or the (usually) gentle rocking motion of the ocean, like being in a huge cradle.

Anyhow, Fitheart, as far as you and your partner go...

Some people wont even notice, some people will notice but wont care, and some people will notice and care but not say anything because they are out of their normal environment and off balance.

I myself would probably notice, not because I am against it, but mostly because it is not so common. I would think that in the long run the more "out" you are, the more "common" you become and the more receptive "on the fence" people will be. Unless of course you are some kind of "really" out there person in which case you will probably just scare the "on the fence" people.

In any case, what does it matter what strangers think anyway.

Don't worry, be happy & keep smilin'