$600 Charge for Two year old

[Giorgi-one]

I just booked four SS suites for next summer. Had to pay over $600 for my two year old grandaughter in a cabin with her parents. Can't wait until they add $10 per day gratuity for her. Needless to say we will have that removed. How much food can a two year old eat? I understand that everyone has to pay Port Charges to the money hungry islands and taxes, but that is only about $200. Is there a hotel in the free world that charges for two year olds?

[Lisa63]

My son ate quite a bit when he was two. :)

He also enjoyed the after-dinner shows, used the playroom under our supervision, slept in a bed, and hung out on deck with us. In other words, he used the ship's facilities just as we did.

Please reconsider withholding the tips on her behalf. If anything, a young child is even more work for a steward than an adult would be. They have to coordinate the timing of the childrens' meals with the adults' meals, ensure a high chair is ready and waiting, clean up the inevitable and accidental spills, make an extra bed (which is usually a Pullman or sofabed -- more work), etc.

JHMO.

[ekerr19]

Giorgi-one:

I have to agree with Lisa... we've cruised with our kids numerous times - regardless of the age, they are still passengers in the cabin... even though we make our kids pick up after themselves in the cabin, there are additional beds to make and turn down, towels to wash and shoes, clothes to pick up... our cabin stewards have always treated our kids so well - I also hope you reconsider the removal of the auto-tip...

btw- I've heard many sailings for the remainder 2004 and early 2005 will have 3rd/4th passenger for $399 pp and 3rd/4th child for $299 pp - you might want to keep an eye out for the special... I've received a few emails, so far our March 2005 cruise is not yet listed - but we are hopeful! I will post any new information I receive.

[Jacqueline]

Its not just HAL. Its the industry, except perhaps for Disney. Over the years have heard the complaints again and again.
I am not quite sure of the rational although there are a few thoughts-
1) discouraging lots of young children as you will see there are many complaints. A ship is a very confined space and encouraging too manyyoung ones would complicate the experience.
2) There are a limited number of berths available for each sailing - and the 2 year old counts toward that number. You can bet they won't be a the bar or casino !
I have three kids who have been cruising for many years with me so I feel your pain ! The crew tends to be very good to them as they are reminded of their own kids at home.

[Ziggy7]

aaaaawwwwwww to be 2 again, then I could afford an SS Suite!

[CoastalCounseling]

I have a 2 year old as well. It *IS* expensive to have him join us. I completely agree with you.

I have been spoliled that at his age, we get into Disney World and many other attractions for free with our paid adult admission. Paying seems foriegn to us too, as we tote around a toddler.

I must also say that on our last cruise, his toys alone commanded a good tip for our room steward, not to mention the chocolate cake crumbs! I make an effort to clean up after him in the dining room. No one wants to find a suprise french fry left on the floor from the first seating.

Cruising also gives him the opportunity to experience many things he would not otherwise. How many two year olds have tried caviar? Played in that powery sand at Half Moon Cay? gleefully gathered ALL the chocolates off the pillows at night?

Its expensive as heck but I sure have enjoyed the experiences my son and I have shared cruising. I hate the costs but couldnt enjoy it as much with out him.

God Bless!

Kelly

[F5Loar]

Speaking as an adult who's parents never took me on a cruise I think you have to look at it like a business situation that has been thrust upon you to make a choice on which is best for the child and your pocketbook. Have you priced by the hour a stay at home babysitter for one week for a 2 year old? If you do I think you will see the $600 as a bargin and the experience the 2 year old will gain.... priceless! From someone who started their 18 mo. old daughter cruising 6 years ago and she just finished her 21st cruise this year. We've paid from $100 to $800 for her to go with us. And Disney ain't that cheap either!

[ekerr19]

Kelly -

Just think - if he keeps cruising, he'll have 300+ days at sea before he can drive!

Our kids (11 & 15) just passed 50 days at sea - to us, cruising is such a great vacation to take with the kids. I only wish we'd started when they were two...

[ryansmemom]

We took our almost three year old grandson and his parents on a cruise with us last November. Yes, we paid the suppliment and tipped extra for services provided to him. This was before the autotip was in effect. In my opinion, he required the same, if not more, attention than the average adult passenger.

The room steward had to open and close the sofa bed each night. In our case, he spent some nights with us, so this involved 2 room stewards coordinating things. They also had three people to look after.

The dining room staff were just wonderful. The waiter, assistant waiter and head waiter all worked together coordinating Ryan's meals with ours, keeping him entertained and granting his special requests.

The crew really seem to enjoy children on board. They do speak of missing their own children and go out of their way to make things special for passenger children, especially the little ones. We found that everyone on board from the captain on down knew Ryan's name and were very welcoming and worked to make things special for him.

We did not feel "taken" in any way because we paid for Ryan's passage. We felt that it was appropriate to tip the people who worked so hard to make his cruise special.

Linda

[ekerr19]

Linda, Thank you. Very nicely put. :)

It was nice to have that special time to spend with Ryan, wasn't it?

We feel we are creating memories that will last our children their entire lives... to me, this is a priceless gift.

[azgymgal]

Yes - There a hotel in the free world that charges for two year olds. The Ramada Express Casino Hotel in Laughlin, Nevada even charges for infants. My friends could not believe they had to pay for their infant son who didn't even need a crib. - That's ridiculous in my opinion.

Have a Great cruise and enjoy your family.

[divinggirl]

FYI and OT, but most hotels in Vegas charge for infants now as well.

[swmichigan cruiser]

We've taken our grandson on two cruises so far one was when he was about 3 1/2 and the last one on the Zuiderdam the end of February when he was about 4 1/2 and we loved having him along with us not sure it came to $600.00 per trip not counting airfare but it was a bargain to us. I know it was less than what we paid for us. He got on the main stage with the juggler/ comedian (Barnaby) one night and anybody that went to the show remembered him and it made for an enjoyable trip for us and him as many people stopped to talk to him on the rest of the cruise. Anyhow go and enjoy.

[Krazy Kruizers]

:)

A number of years ago on a Princess ship, we witnessed an argument between the cabin steward, his supervisor, and the parents of 2 children. It seemed that the parents refused to tip the room steward for his services for the 2 children - they tipped only for themselves. The supervisor was trying to point out how much extra effort it was for the room steward to clean up after 2 small children - sofa bed, crib, towels, linens, etc. We have no idea how the situation was resolved as our number was called to leave the ship. But there a large crowd listening to the conversation.

:)

[CoastalCounseling]

I forgot to add, some of the nicest cruise memories came from the services that were for my child. We LOVED watching the dining staff make puppets out of napkins and "playing" with my son. they gave him special attention...even folding paper into an oragami animal to play with.

Expensive..... yes yes yes! Worth it.... yes yes yes!

Kelly

[cruzincurt]

Usually they divide up that $600 among the other passengers.

Remember, the kiddo takes up a seat reservation in the dining room thus reducing the potential tip for the server of that table.

[SeattleHollandDude]

I work for Holland America and just wanted to see what people generally feel about us. I appreciate the backing of Lisa63 and EKerr19! Don't get me wrong, not only am I an employee, I'm also human.

It's true though. I personally feel that if someone can afford to buy 4 SS cabins, they can certainly afford to pay for their children. If not, save some money and hire a babysitter and keep them at home.

[doone]

Welcome to the boards Seattlehollanddude. I hope you find these boards as informative as we all do, especially being a Holland America employee.

I have to agree with the other posters here when it comes to paying for the children and the tips. Please reconsider leaving your tips in place, or if you feel you want to take them off, please don't forget your cabin boy, dining room steward or any other of the wonderful HAL employee's who are there to make your cruise experience a wonderful one. We too, sailed with children a few years back and paid for the kids like you did also. My nieces and nephews had such a grand time on that cruise and we owed it all to the staff of Holland America. I find are children alot more work to pick up after and the room stewards do a wonderful job on that and are most deserving of a very generous tip.

They went out of their way to be sure the kids were having a wonderful time. Granted we sailed on Feb. school vacation week and they had extra counsellors onboard, but I have to say those counsellors and the crew of the Veendam were nothing short of spectacular. I couldn't complain about the price we paid for them, in the long run, we felt the price was incredible and probably couldn't have done it cheaper ourselves anywhere else. The kids had such an awesome time, we're planning another family cruise on HAL Feb. 2006, so far between family and friends, we should have about 30 of us going.

I think you will find your granddaughter will have a wonderful time.

[Giorgi-one]

I said that I booked four SS cabins not bought them. Obviously, there are four couples in our party and I took care of booking the cabins. The cruise is off season and the SS cabin price is about the same price as lowest inside cabin during prime time. Who are you to make judgements on how much someone can afford? How can you be sure that I did not save for ten years to take this cruise?

We took the same child on a cruise last January and I can guarantee you that except for delivering a crib, the room steward had not one iota of extra work to do. We do not leave clothing laying around in our Cabin. I believe charge on NCL was $99 or $199 extra.

That said, I am paying for all the cabins and $600 is no big deal to me. Also, I always tip waiters and stewards substantially beyone the $10 per day taken out.

I still think $600 is a ridiculous charge. I would advise anyone booking an inside or outside cabin with four people to consider two cabins which cost only about $200 extra per person. In fact for only about $500 extra per person you can book two SS suites on my cruise rather than squeeze four people in a single inside cabin.

[SeattleHollandDude]

Thanks Doone!

FYI: I still feel that for 7 days on a "resort at sea," children should be paid for. However, people tend to not realize that we currently have a promotion for children as 3rd and/or 4th passengers for $199! That includes the port charges as well! Please people, remember to ask about promos or have your travel agent do so :rolleyes:

[SeattleHollandDude]

I apologize if I offended you and you're correct, who am I to assume anything. Just stating my opinion and trying to help with the 3rd & 4th rates.:)

[Giorgi-one]

You did not offend me, but some people on this board have thin skin. Is promo good for August 2005?

[Florida Lady]

Have your TA CHECK OUT PROMO 125.

[taszmom]

I booked under the Family & Friends promotion for the Zuiderdam 10/2 and our 5 yr old daughter's cruise fare was free. The charge of $475 was discounted 100% and our cruise fare was only $664pp for a verandah. There are deals out there. Unfortunately the summer rates are always high for the obvious reasons. NCL has reduced rates for children under 2. We always paid less than $150 for her cruise fare on NCL. IMHO, I think HAL should have a reduced rate for any children under 5 since they are not permitted to participate in Club HAL program. Same for all other cruise lines. In regards to the tipping, the tip, if deserved, should be paid in full regardless of age. It's another bed to make, another place setting at dinner, etc. Personally, anyone willing to clean up after my kid deserves a tip! God knows I wish someone would tip me! LOL!

[SeattleHollandDude]

Promo 125 :D As of now, it expires 12/31/04. However as with any promotion (as you all probably know), it can expire at anytime. It is a promo with special rates for 3rd and 4th passengers which include the port charges. It's not applicable on all sailings though. MOSTLY Caribbean on the Zuiderdam this summer.

[Giorgi-one]

I have no problem with the tip if the fare was reasonable.

[taszmom]

Actually we booked under Promo 197. It's for fall sailings of Zuiderdam, Oosterdam and Ryndam (Mexican Riviera).

[Lisa63]

SeattleHollandDude, welcome to the boards! And thank you for your kind comments.

[peaches from georgia]

Personally, I don't think the tip should be connected to the fare at all. When you book a cruise you have agreed to the fare. If you think the fare is unreasonable go to another cruiseline.

As for the tip, that is a gratuity for services rendered by your stewards who have made your cruise so pleasant. It has nothing to do with the fare itself and the stewards shouldn't be stiffed if you think you paid too much for the cruise. :rolleyes:

[idiebabe]

I agree with Lisa63 and SeattleDude. Children should be charged just like any other passenger. Afterall, "kids are people, too"!!!

[Giorgi-one]

Let's put this back in perspective.

My understanding is that most cruise lines consider ship full based on two passengers per cabin. That's why some cruise lines report operating at 102% capacity (example). Therefore, any 3rd or 4th passengers in a cabin are almost pure profit except for food they eat. They don't subtract from the number of people in the casino. They add to the number of coke cards or the number of tee shirts purchased.

I was talking about a two year old. I am not talking about older children who probably make more of a mess than their parents due in the cabins. The fare should be higher as age increases but I don't see the break point at 2 years old. In any event, the 3rd or 4th person charge should not be 90% of the regular cabin rate as it is for anyone booking an inside cabin.

[Jacqueline]

It would depend on whether the ship was really sailing full. If so, the two year old would be taking the place of a *real* passsenger who would not just be paying full fare but also spending money in the profit centers.
Because of regulations at sea -that I have seen others who are more fluent in this area than my self post- there are absolute limits on passengers due to safetly issues.
This capacity control issue is why even though I have had cabins that were triples and quads, the bunks could not be *sold* becuase the ship was *full*. I actualyl had three cabins all triples and quads and could not book anyone additonal in. For this example, the children could be precluding others from booking- one reason for the full charge.
Of course, if the ship is under capacity its just plain profitable.

[gliles]

I don't know of any 2-year old who doesn't make a mess. I agree, children are people too and should pay the same amount in tips. I can't believe anyone removes the auto tip, I have been on 8 cruises and never have I thought that the service I got didn't deserve at least the minimum. Sometimes no extra, but always the minimum.

[Stevesan]

Nothing lights up the holidays like a
ChrisPtmas or New Year’s cruise with your family.

Purchase a suite and include Friends & Family in the same stateroom from just $199 per person.

Choose from Caribbean, Latin America or South America Holiday Cruises.

Call your Travel Agent or 1-877-SAIL HAL (877-724-5425)</B>.
Ask for Promo #125.</STRONG>
Friends & Family
3rd/4th FaresDepartureShipItineraryTo/FromSuperior and Deluxen/t
Verandah Suites
Cat. S
and Cat. SS

[Stevesan]

Sorry about previous post. Tried a copy/paste from a HA e-mail that didn't work.

PROMO #125: Purchase a suite and include friends and family in the same suite for $199 and up. Includes superior and verandah suites Cat S and Cat SS.

List is too long to copy here, but they're all Holiday period Caribbean cruises except 12/15 Amsterdam which is 21 day South America/Antarctica and the 12/18 Veendam listed as 8 day Latin America.

Terms and Conditions
Featured fares are per person for 3rd/4th passengers sharing the same suite, cruise only. Fares are based on Promo #125 in the category listed. Fares are in U.S. dollars and include non-discountable amounts. Taxes are additional. For new bookings only. Subject to availability. Offers are capacity controlled, and may be modified, withdrawn or sailing dates may be substituted without prior notice. Restrictions may apply. Please refer to the appropriate Holland America brochure for full terms and conditions. Ships' Registry: Netherlands, Bahamas

[superstein61]

Since I have always argued with those folks here who dislike having children onboard, who complain about the kids taking over the pool, running around and enjoying themselves (ALL THINGS MOST OF US DID WHEN WE WERE YOUNG) - I must say that paying and tipping for your child - whether he/she is 2 or 12 is something you should do !!!

One of the arguments I make to those who compalin about kids - is that the kids (ie their parents) paid to be on the cruise just like everyone else - and they have the same right to the pool and to enjoy themselves as do the kid-haters. If you didn't pay for your kids, that argument would no longer apply.

Kids do consume resources on board - whether they be work by your room or dining steward, food, use of facilities, etc. Pay for them and tip those who serve your child if they do a good job. Its only right !!!

[Giorgi-one]

Based on the opinions heard here, HAL would be crazy not to raise fares for 3rd and 4th persons in the same cabin to full fare.

[cruzincurt]

Just curious, who remembers where they went on vacation when they were 2 years old? I certainly don't.

[doone]

I had to wait til I was 22 years old and could afford to pay for a cruise myself.

[CaptData]

I'm single and pay two full fares usually. I eat food, so does the two year old but I do not eat that much more but I pay a full price for someone who is not there. I still tip my steward, waiter and who ever else serves me. I also tip extra because I beleive that one person makes as much work as two even though I pick up my things. :D

A two year old will eat 3 times a day plus two to three snacks. Let's do some figures. Lunch the first day base on age at some restuants is $4.99 (34.95) . Supper is $7.00 ($49.00). Breakfast is $1.99 (13.99). ($97.99). This is at very cheap restauants, just fries, hotdogs sort of meals. On ship, he can try lobster, various seafood, have different desserts (not just a cookie or vanilla ice cream) ect. What is the cost of lobster where you are from, would you pay for him to try it at that price. Has he tried cavier. Some of this can cost $25.00 for an oz, So to the $98.00 let's add $50.00 for the expensive stuff (after all he won't eat much). Now two to three snacks a day, lets add $10.00 per day for $70.00. We are up to $210.00. To me, you have saved yourself some money at $600.00. To hire a babysitter for the week would have cost you about $800.00. You saved $200.00 just on the babysitter. You also saved on your grocery bill for the week. He got to try some very expensive dishes without you having to pay extra. Oh yes, he got ice cream too. And more importantly, you got to experience his first cruise with him. Congratulations.

[jhannah]

Cruzincurt, I certainly don't remember a thing about being two years old!

[Quote]In any event, the 3rd or 4th person charge should not be 90% of the regular cabin rate as it is for anyone booking an inside cabin.[Quote]
Why not? The only "savings" is that they don't take up another cabin that has to be cleaned. Number three and number four consume all that number one and number two do. They require the same water treatment as number one and number two. The ports charge the same for them as the others.

[superstein61]

Based on the opinions heard here, HAL would be crazy not to raise fares for 3rd and 4th persons in the same cabin to full fare.

No - that would make no sense - because a portion of the costs (ie the room) are fixed and absorbed whether 2 people use that room or 4 people).

but having a 3rd or 4th person pay half or so as they do now makes sense

[CoastalCounseling]

HMMM.... Interesting idea. I love who ever mentioned discounting under age 5 fares.

My child (2) can not use the CLUB HAL facilites. I get no "free" babysitting services (included in your fare) until he is older. Baby sitting on board for my child runs $8.00 hour. I LOVE the idea of HAL reducing the prices of kids who cant use the HAL program.

Of course we will cruise again before he is 5 years old, but IF I WERE PRESIDENT.....

Until then, we will cruise with Nana and Grandpa for FREE sitting! Gotta love them.

SMILE! :)

Kelly

[snake114]

One of the reasons we chose the Amsterdam for our Alaska cruise in June was that they only charged $199 for our 16-month old. Norweigan and Princess both wanted to charge her the full 3rd passenger in room fees of $500+..!!!!

I had no problem tipping extra for her- despite our efforts toddlers can be messy!! However, being charged the $10/day for 8 days, not seven, kind of irked me- that last day we were off the ship by 8:30am, and the incoming passengers would also be auto-tipping for that day as well!!

[Giorgi-one]

The $10 per day should only be added for 7 days. I have never seen it added on the last day. Should I expect a surprise on my Visa Bill?

[iluvcruzin]

I've seen this topic on various cruiseline boards. There's always a big debate on whether a child should be paying the same fare as an adult passenger (as a 3rd/4th). Also the tip thing comes up too.

Although I agree $600 is a tad steep for an extra person on a 7-day cruise, I don't think age should be a factor for special discounts or treatments. It's all based on head counts onboard a ship. To consider punishment by withholding tips (as mentioned in the first post) is a personal decision, but personally I think that's unfair punishment to the wrong people based solely on one's issue with pricing.

Hopefully you will be able to get a promo discount before your sailing.


(Hi SeattlehollandDude and welcome to the boards.)

[Giorgi-one]

Forget whether $600 is too much for a two year old. Cabin prices are always based on two people in a stateroom. It seems that most people feel that the third and fourth persons in the same room should pay nearly full fare. This means that they feel that the actual room cost is small compared to the cost of food, electricity, water, etc. I disagree. The cost (Note I said cost) of food is probably less than $10-15 per day for any passenger and in most cases is free for the extra passengers since the ship probably throws away enough food to feed 50 - 100 passengers each day. I am not sure how port charges work. Does the ship pay a fixed fee based on full capacity (2 per room) or do they pay for the actual number of passengers? And the extra passengers spend extra money in the casinos, excursions, etc. I believe that almost all the money paid by 3rd and 4th passengers is pure profit for the cruise line. And don't forget that the extra $70 in tips goes to the cruise line not the workers. And please don't even try to tell me how much extra fuel is required for the 180 lb passenger on a ship that weights about 40,000 tons or 800,000,000 lbs.

[iluvcruzin]

Forget whether $600 is too much for a two year old. You started the discussion based on this being a problem and now asking to forget it. So I guess you either don't have a problem with it or looking for something to complain or debate about. It's now a dead closed issue...

Next topic???

[dam1050]

I personally feel that if someone can afford to buy 4 SS cabins, they can certainly afford to pay for their children. If not, save some money and hire a babysitter and keep them at home.

Right On !

Isn't it always amazing how the same people who will spend the most for some things, will also be the first the moan and complain about the puny little charges for something else.

I don't envy their room steward one bit. You know for sure these same people will be the most demanding passengers to be found.

Dave

[Giorgi-one]

Iluvcruzin;

Different issue. Most posters are justifying high charges for 3rd and 4th passengers based on cost for food which is very small in the overall scheme of things. Also, remember that most waiters and room stewards are on a fixed salary and that extra tips for 3rd and 4th passengers goes directly to HAL. Waiters and stewards make out better if additional passengers leave extra tips. Actually, everyone makes out better except the four passengers in the same room who are now like sardines.

[bdmarine]

I think they should charge more for two year olds than for adult passengers. I didn't pay my hard earned money for a vacation to be tripping over some mewling baby. I don't appreciate the screaming and food throwing at meals. I don't appreciate the spice they add to the swimming pool.

I wonder sometimes why people think their children are some kind of gift to the world, a gift that I have to support with my tax dollars and my forebearance for the chaos they inject into my life. Pay for your own children and get your hands out of my pocket.

[jhannah]

Meow!

[Giorgi-one]

dam1050:

Are we getting a little testy? Or are you just jealous that you cannot afford to book 4 SS suites?

Actually, we are about the least demanding people who ever boarded a cruise ship. When the room steward comes in, he usually jokes that it looks like no one has been in the cabin. We keep everything in its place and there is never anything lying around. We usually reuse our towels for more than one day as suggested to save water, etc. In 14 cruises, we have used room service about 3 times. And we always tip the waiters and room stewards about twice the suggested tip.

As I responded to Seattle Holland Dude, you have no idea of someones financial position just because they have booked a suite. They may have saved 10 years for this one vacation. Remember the first three letters in the work assume.

[gizmo]

Iluvcruzin;

Different issue. Most posters are justifying high charges for 3rd and 4th passengers based on cost for food which is very small in the overall scheme of things. Also, remember that most waiters and room stewards are on a fixed salary and that extra tips for 3rd and 4th passengers goes directly to HAL. Waiters and stewards make out better if additional passengers leave extra tips. Where did this piece of information come from? I have never heard of Hal getting the tips for the 3rd and 4th pax.:confused:


Actually, everyone makes out better except the four passengers in the same room who are now like sardines. Not true. Singles have to pay anywhere from 150% to 200%.

[doone]

I get a cabin to myself, never thought the single supplement was fair either, but it is what it is, I pay it and I have an absolutely wonderful time.

[Giorgi-one]

Gizmo:

Under the new tipping system, all tips go to HAL. The waiters, stewards, etc. are paid a salary based on experience, position, etc.

[Giorgi-one]

Gizmo:

I am not trying to stick it to singles, but that is just my point. Cabin pricing is based on double occupancy. So, if rate per person is $1,000, the cabin is worth $2000 to HAL. That is why the single rate is usually 200%. Very little of that fare goes toward consumables like food.

My point is that once the $2,000 is paid by the first two passengers, most of the fare from the 3rd and 4th passengers in the same cabin is pure profit. And the additional money in tips, casino, excursions, etc. is like hitting the lottery!

[peaches from georgia]

Under the new tipping system, all tips go to HAL. The waiters, stewards, etc. are paid a salary based on experience, position, etc.

ALL TIPS GO TO HAL? Not so.

The automatic tips put on a pax' ship account (the $10/pp/day) are pooled and divided- $3 to the room steward, $3 to the dining steward, and the remaining $4 divided among several other employees. Anything you tip directly to a steward in cash over and above the automatic $10 tip he may keep and it is not pooled with anybody else.

I don't see where ANY of these tips are going to Holland America. They are all going to the stewards and/or other employees in one way or the other, but they are not kept by the cruiseline. :confused:

[sail7seas]

I asked, and asked and asked various stewards on Maasdam last week about where additional tips above and beyond the $10 pp per day goes. Each and every one of them assured us that the additional envelopes we gave them were theirs to keep and would not be shared. The only sharing is out of the $10 charged to our accounts.I agree that an additional charge for small children in a cabin is appropriate and tipping in at least the same amount as all other passengers is earned by the hard working stewards who will take extra care for the children.

[JoeCruisin]

This is even more of an issue for someone like me. My wife and I are bringing our 11 month old daughter on a cruise in October. We are also cruising with Grandma and Grandpa so we can have someone help watch her while we're on vacation. This was one of the main reasons we booked a cruise in the first place. She will still be on formula at the time which means she will consume no food from Holland America and she is too young for any of the kids programs. But we will have to pay $600 for her to go. I have no problem paying the govt and port charges but the $390 or whatever it is HAL is charging for her seems quite ridiculous. Every other vacation medium (all inclusives, regular resorts, etc) charge $0 for kids under 2. Why should crusing be different?

[digby]

I asked, and asked and asked various stewards on Maasdam last week about where additional tips above and beyond the $10 pp per day goes. Each and every one of them assured us that the additional envelopes we gave them were theirs to keep and would not be shared. The only sharing is out of the $10 charged to our accounts.n


That is the direct opposite of what we were told on the Westerdam by the cruise director. Maybe your stewards hide those extra envelopes?

[doone]

Joecruisin, HAL will provide babyfood, not sure about formular, diapers, etc if you notify them ahead of time. At least you won't have to perhaps pack formula and diapers, but its worth asking. I read it in the back of the brochure.

[peaches from georgia]

That is the direct opposite of what we were told on the Westerdam by the cruise director. Maybe your stewards hide those extra envelopes?

If the pax removes the automatic $10/pp/day from his ship account and then gives cash directly to his stewards, then the steward must turn in the cash tip to be pooled. However, if the pax does not remove the auto tip from his account and in addition to that tips a steward in extra cash, then the steward may keep the extra and it is not pooled.

HAL is just assuring that up to $10/pp/day is pooled. Anything over that is not. I think enough posters here have been on cruises under the new system for this to be pretty much the known, accepted and correct procedure.

[Giorgi-one]

Peaches:

I read several posts on this board which indicated that waiters, room steward, etc. were now on a salary based on experience. The $10 per day collected from each passenger may be used to pay these salaries. I would assume that is why HAL makes such a big fuss if anyone has the $10 taken off their account.

Can anyone confirm this?

[gizmo]

Gizmo:

Under the new tipping system, all tips go to HAL. The waiters, stewards, etc. are paid a salary based on experience, position, etc.This is not correct. See the post by Peaches who explained it. Where did you get your infomation?

My point is that once the $2,000 is paid by the first two passengers, most of the fare from the 3rd and 4th passengers in the same cabin is pure profit. And the additional money in tips, casino, excursions, etc. is like hitting the lottery! Cruise lines are in the business to make a profit. The 3rd and 4th pax are at a reduced fare since they are sharing. It is not pure profit.

[blndee77]

This is even more of an issue for someone like me. My wife and I are bringing our 11 month old daughter on a cruise in October. We are also cruising with Grandma and Grandpa so we can have someone help watch her while we're on vacation. This was one of the main reasons we booked a cruise in the first place. She will still be on formula at the time which means she will consume no food from Holland America and she is too young for any of the kids programs. But we will have to pay $600 for her to go. I have no problem paying the govt and port charges but the $390 or whatever it is HAL is charging for her seems quite ridiculous. Every other vacation medium (all inclusives, regular resorts, etc) charge $0 for kids under 2. Why should crusing be different?
JoeCruisin - We booked the Z for an end of Sept cruise with our DD who will be 14 mos at the time. We're in the process of transitioning her over to milk and table food so that we don't have to lug as much! We are booked in an A cabin (the highest verandah below the SS mini-suite) and we are paying $175 for her fare plus the port charges and takes of approx $150. Much more reasonable than your $600. Does anyone know why the difference? Do infants in suites get charged that much more? Or is it by the week travelled? I would think October is also off-season and wouldn't cost as much as the summer or big school vacation weeks.

[Giorgi-one]

I noticed that most people had no problem in paying additional port charges for the 3rd or 4th person in a cabin. I am still not convinced that there are any additional port charges for extra passengers. I briefly checked the topic in Google and found that most port charges are based on the GRT of the ship. I cannot be sure, but I am guessing that cruise lines determine the port charge based on a predetermined number of passengers, probably based on less than full capacity so they will not lose money. Someone out there will confirm sooner or later.

[cruzincurt]

Seems to me the port charge is per person. There was just an article in our paper that Tampa and some other ports such as Gulfport are fighting for cruise ship business. I think Tampa lowered their per person charge to $6.75 per person. I also heard some time in the past that dockage is charged per foot of the ship times duration. Perhaps that's why ships seem to be cutting their in-port times.

[CoastalCounseling]

I think they should charge more for two year olds than for adult passengers. I didn't pay my hard earned money for a vacation to be tripping over some mewling baby. I don't appreciate the screaming and food throwing at meals. I don't appreciate the spice they add to the swimming pool.

I wonder sometimes why people think their children are some kind of gift to the world, a gift that I have to support with my tax dollars and my forebearance for the chaos they inject into my life. Pay for your own children and get your hands out of my pocket.



****** may help. :) SMILE!

(Im a therapist... Im allowed to suggest this!) :)

[Roadguy]

I find this entire thread to be a joke.
Original complaints were:
$600 for a 2yo- then posts that it isn't a problem.
$10 per day- will have it removed-suggesting no tipping
port charges- who ever worries about them.

I still don't understand takin a 2yo on a cruise?

[gizmo]

Sorry Girogi-one, we posted at almost the same time and I did not see yours. Maybe you misunderstood what you read about the tips and salaries. Salaries are seperate. There has been complaining about tipping and some comments like Hal should pay there salaries, and I don't want to pay their salary. Most of these comments referrenced that 4.00 that is split between "behind the scenes people".

[Giorgi-one]

Roadguy:

Sorry if my opinions don't live up to your high values. But to recap for you:

1. Yes, I think $600 is a bit much for a two year old sharing a cabin. I didn't change my mind, I simply moved onto another connected topic.

2. Charging almost 90% of regular fare for 3rd or 4th persons is too high based on the difference in cost for food, etc. which is minimal. I will never have a 3rd or 4th person in a room, so this is just an observation.

3. As far as port charges are concerned, I am just not sure how they are charged and how the cruise lines calculate them. I don't worry about them but they sometimes amount to almost 20% of the full fare. So if you shop around to save $50 on your cruise, you would better spend your time worrying about port charges.

[WindyCity]

Just curious - does the cruise line provide a crib for the child? diapers? formula? baby food? Does the cruise line not have to pay for these items? Even if the child is on breast milk, there are other expenses. Bedding for leaky diapers (and it does happen) Don't you think there is some cost involved in this? If you feel that the cost is too high, maybe you should consider another type of vacation.

[dam1050]

Are we getting a little testy? Or are you just jealous that you cannot afford to book 4 SS suites?

No, "we" are certainly not getting testy, nor am I jealous in the least about your cabins category. What makes you think I could not afford suites?

What I was saying (and perhaps I did not write clearly enough to be understood) -- was that if I was paying for a suite I would certainly NOT be trying to nickel and dime room stewards when you don't think you should have to pay for your children.

Remember the first three letters in the work assume.

And you might want to remember how to spell "WORD" before calling others an ass.

[Golfgrl1911]

When I was a young child, (1960's), My parents believed that children were children and adults were adults. This was a time when the kids ate hot dogs while the adults ate steak. I do not remember going to kiddieland at 2 years old, I've only seen the pictures.....why in the world would the parents not want to enjoy the time by themselves when the baby isn't even going to remember ANYTHING??? Get a babysitter, (Gram & Gramps), enjoy the adult experience and let the people who have chosen not to have children or already have raised them the peace and quiet of their exclusive and expensive vacation. This is not and infant oriented vacation....leave that for Disney or Universal.......sorry to sound so anti-child but I really believe that this is an adult type experience. Save your money for Disney in the future when the kids will remember and appreciate it. Sorry if I've ruffled some feathers but I've been on a ship where the baby cried the entire dinner hour. Not fun for me!!:eek:

[staufj22]

Lots of people here chime in their opinion about bringing a 2 year old on a cruise. Although expressing your opinion is the point of a message board, comments like that dosn't make much sense as far as this thread's original intent.

The fact is that Giorgi-one is bringing a 2 year old child, the issue was that she thinks the charge was too high. No one asked whether bringing a child onboard is a good idea or not. No one asked whether you remember your vacations when you were 2. If anyone wanted to share their 2 years old vacation memory (or the lack thereof) i'd be happy to open another thread to ask that.

Its kinda like in a previous thread.. someone asked if they can get away with wearing such and such on formal night.. and the majority of the response was.. well, in my 50 cruises, i've never worn that! or.. I wouldn't even wear that on land!

C'mon people, just because its not something you would've done, dosn't mean its wrong.

Ok.. I'll get off the soap box now before I mention about the 'bringing alcahol on board' responses.. =)

Flame away....

[superstein61]

I think they should charge more for two year olds than for adult passengers. I didn't pay my hard earned money for a vacation to be tripping over some mewling baby. I don't appreciate the screaming and food throwing at meals. I don't appreciate the spice they add to the swimming pool.

I wonder sometimes why people think their children are some kind of gift to the world, a gift that I have to support with my tax dollars and my forebearance for the chaos they inject into my life. Pay for your own children and get your hands out of my pocket.
Wow - rough day or what?

Hope you are joking with that type of attitude

[superstein61]

Roadguy:

Sorry if my opinions don't live up to your high values. But to recap for you:

1. Yes, I think $600 is a bit much for a two year old sharing a cabin. I didn't change my mind, I simply moved onto another connected topic.Even though I previously posted on this thread that 3rd and 4th pax need to pay a reasonable amount, I agree - $600 seems a bit much

2. Charging almost 90% of regular fare for 3rd or 4th persons is too high based on the difference in cost for food, etc. which is minimal. I will never have a 3rd or 4th person in a room, so this is just an observation.I agree - you are looking at fixed vs variable costs here. The 2 people in a cabin cover that cabin's fixed costs. 3rd and 4th pax just incur extra variable costs (ie food, service) and probably should be in the 50% range of the price of the first two pax imo

[superstein61]

When I was a young child, (1960's), My parents believed that children were children and adults were adults. This was a time when the kids ate hot dogs while the adults ate steak. I do not remember going to kiddieland at 2 years old, I've only seen the pictures.....why in the world would the parents not want to enjoy the time by themselves when the baby isn't even going to remember ANYTHING??? Get a babysitter, (Gram & Gramps), enjoy the adult experience and let the people who have chosen not to have children or already have raised them the peace and quiet of their exclusive and expensive vacation. This is not and infant oriented vacation....leave that for Disney or Universal.......sorry to sound so anti-child but I really believe that this is an adult type experience. Save your money for Disney in the future when the kids will remember and appreciate it. Sorry if I've ruffled some feathers but I've been on a ship where the baby cried the entire dinner hour. Not fun for me!!:eek:oh puleeeze - sounds like you had a deprived childhood dear.

how about sharing things with your children !!! Doing things as a family !!!

My daughter, now 10, has travled with us since she was a baby. She's been to more places than most adults - and it shows. her teachers in school have remarked numerous times about her world knowledge and maturity that she has obtained from travleing and experiencing the world.

You don't want to cruise with kids - book yourself on an adults only cruise. You want to deprive your own children of expanding their minds thru travel - feel free - just don't push your ideas on others

[Golfgrl1911]

I thought this cruiseline was a teens/adults only cruiseline!! They don't advertise special kids pools and such like Disney. What am I missing here? I was led to believe that this cruiseline was geared toward the "older" set. That it was a quieter, more mellow cruise. I did not book with Carnival or RCCL for a reason! I will ignore the comment about my deprived childhood....as it is absolutlely not true.......

[rj123456]

We just got back July 18th from a wonderful 7-nt. Vancouver to Seward sailing on the Veendam. The weather was terrific on all three port days - it was 80 and sunny in Skagway and almost the same in Ketchikan (instead of the much-touted "liquid sunshine" we'd been expecting).

Initially I was apprehensive about tipping the same for my 3-year old as for the rest in our party but after the cruise I think it was fully justified. Every HAL staff member was extremely helpful with our son and gave us extra help at meal times etc.

One sea day we ate late in the Lido, just as the breakfast buffet closed and my son was demanding more pancakes. One of the stewards was wandering around selling souvenir mugs and when she heard the commotion she stopped and inquired what we needed then said she'd see if she could help. She returned 10 minutes later explaining she had to go to the galley two floors down and that they were specially making an order of pancakes for my son. She then disappeared again and reappeared with the pancakes after another 10 minutes. (Her name escapes me for the moment but her husband is one of the head chefs on the Veendam). She stopped selling souvenirs and took care of one hungry 3-year old - outstanding service, HAL!!!

BTW, regarding the $199 promo for the third person is great but I think we were charged $200 additional for port charges, and irritatingly, charged $650 for the third person airline ticket. (The others got a promotoional $399 airfare, I don't understand why HAL couldn't get my son the same airfare but perhaps it has something to do with the deal they get from Alaska airlines).

[B&B]

Wow, harsh words for such a wonderful time planned! Guess what, HAL does encourage family atmosphere. You might visit the following link from their web site: http://hollandamerica.com/onboard/kids.do . Yes mind your children, and yes you are accountable for their appropriate behavior - and YES, EXPOSE YOUR CHILDREN TO LIFE AWAY FROM THE BABYSITTER! Every time I have traveled without my family, I wished I had my wife and young daughters with me to share so many experiences the "discovery channel" doesn't offer. We never choose to leave developing minds behind - and never will.

I sincerely hope you enjoy your vacation - I know my family will.

Regarding the $600 - a bit high I agree, however commenting on it just opens the door for others to complain. I'll pay it!

...carpe diem

[Esme]

. (Her name escapes me for the moment but her husband is one of the head chefs on the Veendam).

Her name escapes me also, but was it Angie? Married to Bill McGrath?? They were on the Veendam in February.

[peaches from georgia]

....3-year old....
....was demanding more pancakes....
....commotion


3 YEAR OLD? 'DEMANDING'? COMMOTION?

2 more words if you are cruising with babies who can't behave in an adult situation- ROOM SERVICE :eek:

[stillfrantic]

Please tip for the infant. They take up a space in the life boat, same as anyone else. By having a young child at a table, they are given a space. It isn't like Ruby Tuesday's where they might but an extra chair at a table for small child. By having a young person at the table, it is eliminating the seat for an adult. Don't penalize a staff person for having a child at the table, or in the room.

[yarlenna]

If you don't want to pay for the child, then leave him/her with relatives.
If somebody is forced to provide a service without getting paid for it, that is called slavery. Cabin stewards work long hard hours and rely on tips for their pay. If we do not pay them, we are treating them as slave labor.

[gizmo]

I will ignore the comment about my deprived childhood....as it is absolutlely not true.......:) I know exactly what you are talking about in your oringinal post. It was the same for me. I don't think we were deprived. Agree 100% with you.:)

[Blazerboy]

Stubbled across this thread, and decided to read it from the start.

I'm definitely for kids having the cruise experience, as I started at age four, and have almost forty years of cruising under my (ever-expanding) belt:D . Treasured memories from my childhood-glad I was there because I not ony enjoyed the experience, but learned a lot too. But I never threw food, or cried through diner. (o.k., I probably did press all the elevator buttons once or twice, but DEFINTELY got reprimanded (politely) for it, by my mother, other passengers, and the crew-life lesson learned-don't be inconsiderate of your fellow passengers).

But in understanding the modern day cruise, you have to understand that, while there are potential savings to the line for having a 3rd/4th passenger in a cabin, there is not as much profit with small children. Cruise fares have become SO reasonable, in part, because the cruise line makes LOTS of money from those who gamble and drink. True, you might buy a t-shirt, or pay for a shore excursion for a child, but(hopefully) they won't indulge in the two areas that provide the line with a great deal of profit. Now, don't flame me- this isn't to say that everyone should gamble and drink as a DUTY to the cruise line;) - some people do, some don't and that's great, BUT the line has calculated that, on average, most will indulge in these profit making "activities." A week's cruise ONLY costs, in some cases, $700.00. I think that's a bargain given what inflation has done in the past 40 years. Cruise lines calculate in the drinking and gambling revenue when setting prices, to the point that they'd rather sell an empty cabin at the last minute for $199.pp in the hopes that the passengers will make up for it with spending on their shipboard account. They are a for-profit business.

So, I hope the two year old gets to go, I hope that he has a great time with his grandparents, I hope they end up appreciating the value by the end of the cruise, and I hope they tip the stewards and waiters.:)

And now, we can all sit around the campfire holding hands and singing songs (and maybe tell a few fun cruise stories).

[Zeno]

I think the problem is - you are punishing the crew for a company policy. (My understanding is that the service charge is pooled and does go to the crew). By the way I do agree that the price you are being charged is excessive for a small child but I also think the crew deserve the service charge (even a 2 year old uses their services).

[Jacqueline]

One reason that I am sure that they charge for babies is to discourage them. I have three kids so this isnt an antifamily post.
A ship is not a resort and given the confined spaces onboard, it is not an ideal situation for a cruseline to encourage little ones (and if they were free you can bet many more people would bring them).
On the tipping. Giorgi, I am sure that your have been misinformed . In my documents the tipping policy was very clearly spelled out in a seperate letter as well as in the know before you go.
The tips go 100% to the crew not to the cruiseline.

[idiebabe]

Golfgirl: I agree 100%!

As far as complaining about a fare of a child? As someone pointed out the child is taking up a seat in the Dining Room (as well as eating) and getting served by the wait staff, using the facilities (pool), etc. What they are NOT doing is spending money in the Casino, NOT spending money in the lounges on alcohol and NOT spending money in the gift shop, bingo, etc. Also, NOT paying full price on most Shore Tours.

Last December my daughter shared a room with two of her friends. The 3rd person in her room ran up a hefty shipboard account: alcohol, shopping, shore tours, etc. (Not to mention the Casino!). She was 28 years old (not 2 years old). Maybe the cruise lines should charge for the children and let the Adults go for free since they're the ones spending the money. Interesting thought!!!

With regards to tipping. I've been on other cruise lines where they started putting the tips on the shipboard account and we think it's great. Don't need to worry about putting the cash in the envelopes. I've also tipped extra when I felt it deserved. I don't understand what all the fuss is about over this!!!

[superstein61]

I thought this cruiseline was a teens/adults only cruiseline!! They don't advertise special kids pools and such like Disney. What am I missing here? I was led to believe that this cruiseline was geared toward the "older" set. That it was a quieter, more mellow cruise. I did not book with Carnival or RCCL for a reason! I will ignore the comment about my deprived childhood....as it is absolutlely not true.......
no need for a special kids pool - they use the regular pools just like evryone else !!!

while some HAL cruises attract the older, in bed by 9pm set, others don't. just depends on where you are going, what ship, and time of year

[srpilo]

Deleted post

[Jacqueline]

I thought this cruiseline was a teens/adults only cruiseline!!

You have been misinformed... Time of year, ship and itinerary will dictate how many kids are onboard.
The Vista class ships feature teen centers and childrens centers. Info on CLUB HAL is on the webite.
Celebrity has some adults only cruises.

[stillfrantic]

I think they should charge more for two year olds than for adult passengers. I didn't pay my hard earned money for a vacation to be tripping over some mewling baby. I don't appreciate the screaming and food throwing at meals. I don't appreciate the spice they add to the swimming pool.

I wonder sometimes why people think their children are some kind of gift to the world, a gift that I have to support with my tax dollars and my forebearance for the chaos they inject into my life. Pay for your own children and get your hands out of my pocket.
Oh my!:eek: I believe I'd rather sit with ANYONE'S children at dinner than with you. What if everyone ganged up on older people with universal misconceptions of hating people with dentures at the table, or Depends leaking in the pool, or blasting scooters as nuisances. Change a few words in your post and it could have been written during integration. It has all the hallmarks of the biggoted attitude shown to minorities during the period. Again, bring on the babies, toddlers and teens. Just don't bring on such a nasty attitude.:mad: Oh, and as for tax dollars supporting babies.....uhmmmm, two words......Social Security.:rolleyes:

[texkat]

To address the original issue, which was tipping for the two year old:

Children create AT LEAST as much work for your servers and cabin attendants as adults, in most cases a LOT more work.

It doesn't matter how much food the child eats- she will have a seat at dinner, and will be served. The server will likely have to do extra work to attend to her needs- perhaps special beverages, extra cleanup, etc.

The munchkin will use a bed, which will have to be made up each night/morning. She'll use towels and washcloths and cleaning supplies. Dirty diapers create extra trash to be carried out, etc.

The $10 per day tip for a toddler is a BARGAIN, and I'd be appalled to find that someone begrudged this to the staff.

I adore children... but they are work! :)

[Blazerboy]

O.K., read they following if you want, but I'll warn you, it's a serious post about truly uncivilized attitudes towards children that were posted by an earlier poster that may have been one on those "pot stirrers" that we have on the boards. If so, he/she succeeded in wasting our time here, but I think I win, because I was able to iterate my feelings bleow, and am proud of them.:)

So here it goes:
I'm childless, and don't seek out vacations with children or teens, but do accept them when they are there. I think it's fair to have reasonable expectations on a cruise or anywhere that children will try to behave, and that when they don't, their parents will remedy the situation. That said, children should be allowed some leeway, as they are just that, children, and still in the process of learning appropriate behavior. To imply that, because you are paying for a vacation, you shouldn't have to deal with any children is only true if the vacation is specifically for adults only. Short of that, it is essential for us to look at children as human beings, and God willing, future adults who need interaction with a group of adults who will have behavioral expectations of them, so the children, too, can learn appropriate behavior. To do otherwise is against the precepts of a civilized society.

I wonder sometimes why people think their children are some kind of gift to the world, a gift that I have to support with my tax dollars and my forebearance for the chaos they inject into my life.
And this is a truly sad commentary. I can't assume the poster meant his/her port taxes, so I think there's a bigger isssue here. While childless, children bring a great deal of joy into my life, and I can't imagine many of my life experinces being complete with out these children in my life. While I was educated in private schools, I pay taxes to support public schools and children's programs, because they will educate the children that will someday be my lawyer or doctor or clerk in a store that helps me out with my groceries, or my neighbor when I'm a senior in need of a little helping hand. And I want those children to have as many opportunities to grow and learn as possible, so that they, too, can grow up to be adults with consideration for others, and who will contribute as much to society as I hope to. The above referenced selfishness is appalling.

Phew, there, I feel better. Hope you all have a good day.:) And yes, I'll lighten up now.:D

[Orcrone]

Blazerboy,

You have excellent points. Hopefully it gives others something to think of, or at least tells them to go to an adults only vacation next time.

Makes me almost appreciate my teenagers.:D (Just kidding, they're great kids).

[JoeCruisin]

Joecruisin, HAL will provide babyfood, not sure about formular, diapers, etc if you notify them ahead of time. At least you won't have to perhaps pack formula and diapers, but its worth asking. I read it in the back of the brochure.
Yeah - they'll provide it but at a cost of course. I contacted HAL and they sent me an order form - $1 per diaper, $1 per jar of baby food, etc. At that rate it's just not worth it. We'll bring our own supplies. The only thing that bothers me about charging a cruise fair is that they treat an infant and a 12 year old kid the same and they will use vastly different resources. IMO it's a great deal for kids that actually eat but quite unreasonable for infants that won't eat or drink a thing. I imagine there aren't a lot of infants on cruises so this probably hasn't been raised as a complaint too often.

[localady]

BlazerBoy-

Thanks for your very thoughtful comments!!!! I am the parent of 2 teens that are facing totally overcrowded schools right now because the voters (most of them from our Del Webb Sun City) took the opinion that they didn't have kids, so why should they support a Bond to support the school construction for our High School District??? It's a shame that children are so undervalued in this day and age:/

That said, I am the most strict parent on earth when it comes to my kids behavior in public!!! I too have witnessed people who allow their children to "run the show", it's a shame and I think that it gives the rest of us parents a bad name. :cool:

JoeCrusin-

Silly me, I assumed that because an infant was a "passenger" that at least the baby food would be provided at no cost by HAL. I am sure I would be mad as a hornet if I was paying for an infant on board at a regular 3rd person rate and having to pay for the babyfood!!!! The advertisement materials about baby supplies doesn't note that this is a for charge service:(

[merryecho]

We spent 10 days in a cabin next door to a family with a 2 year old that screamed for what seemed like hours, every night. Because they couldn't change our room, the cruise line gave us a $100 credit. No wonder HAL chooses to discourage small children by charging a full fare. (By the way, the parents were completley clueless. They obviously thought everyone adored their little darling. They didn't.)

[brigittetom]

3 YEAR OLD? 'DEMANDING'? COMMOTION?

2 more words if you are cruising with babies who can't behave in an adult situation- ROOM SERVICE :eek:
Who do you blame??? The three year old for demanding, or the parents that allow a 3 yo to demand that the cook has to prepare pancakes when the Lido is closed. Pefect example of why you should tip well for toddlers. :rolleyes: