The 'As You Wish' Concept

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!
I was just ruminating on the 'As You Wish' concept and wondering how it would apply to the following situations:
1. College / Univeristy class schedules.
2. Doctor and dentist appointments.
3. Marketing and sales meetings.
4. Legal proceedings, escrow closings and accountant appointments.
5. Income tax quarterly payment schedules.
6. Fill in the blank.

As You Wish Dining? IHOP, McDonald's, Olive Garden and a 'Slurpee' and hot dog at Circle K comes to mind

Traditional Dining? A structured, appointed time for fine dining without having to wait in line, the need to make a call daily for a reservation or the requirement to 'carry' a beeper.

A McHAL is coming to your ship soon. Enough said. (Gee, venting is fun.)

Bon Voyage and Good Health to one and all!

[BruceMuzz]

Bob,
First, I am not a great fan of Open Dining on ships. But..............

We need to take a closer look at the (relatively short) history of so-called Traditional dining. The version we are familiar with hasn't been around very long. It was designed to make up for the lack of table space on the newer larger mass market cruise ships that were no longer able to accommodate all passengers at one seating; it was also designed to reduce the number of serving and cooking staff by forcing you (the passenger) to participate in mass feedings that allowed an economy of scale to take over. Not even McDonalds has gone so far to force everyone to eat at the same time in order to reduce space and costs.

Fine Dining?? Hardly. Stand back and take a look at the big picture. It should be fine dining - if you are to believe the advertising. But it resembles - more than anything - a mediocre wedding reception dinner. Don't even get me started on the baseball caps and tank tops.

Not having to wait in line? Every ship that I have worked on (25 at last count; 1300+ cruises) has had long lines every night as the masses head for the dining room - all at the same time - for their Fixed Dining Tables.

"A Structured, appointed time" ?? That's true only for those who were lucky enough to book very early and received the early or late seating time they requested. But what about the 40% (on average) of cruisers who did not get the dining time they requested because that dining time was already filled?
Structured? Not for them.
Appointed? Not for them.
Many of them cannot even eat in the dining room because they need to go to bed before their Structured Appointed time even arrives. They spend the week eating in the buffet or calling room service every night.

So although the open dining concepts on some of the cruise lines are hardly perfect, they do offer benefits that appeal to many, and they do solve some of the shortcomings of the mass feedings you call "Structured Fine Dining".

So far as having the "As You Wish" concept applied to other facets of life - it's already being done.

As You Wish allows you to Choose Traditional Fixed Dining - if you wish. So if that is your choice, nothing has changed. You dine at the early or late appointed time as you always have. No issues and no complaints, right??

But if you can't or don't want to do that, there are options:

Early seating is already filled up and you can't eat so late? No problem. Now instead of calling room service all week, you can eat early in open seating.

Took a shore excursion that returned you back to the ship after your early seating has closed? No problem. You can dine late in open seating for tonight instead of grazing in the buffet.

You really want to see tonight's show after late seating, but have to get up early tomorrow for a tour? No problem. Eat early in open seating tonight, see the early show, and go to bed early tonight.

If you still get your fixed seating as always, why would you be adverse to others getting the open seating they want?

[mariner]

Bruce,

You clearly don't know your history.

Seatings have been around since at least the 1950s.

True open seating has been done on high-end lines for years. BUT, you're assigned a table. Come whenever, between 6-9.

I've never seen lines at the dining room, except on the first night.

I noticed on NOORDAM, during the AYW experiment, it was like the old two seatings.

And if you want to discourage the early rush, call it Early Seating, not First.

[mariner]

One other point:

When will the show be on?

AYW? Do we do 2, 3 4 shows?

No. We'll do one. So shipboard will still dictate what happens.

[Welove2cruise2]

I don't understand the resistance to AYW dining -- it's like you have to have all your decisions made for you ahead of time -- HELLO? I think I can decide WHEN I want to have dinner, WHERE I want to have dinner, WITH WHOM I want to have dinner, and WHAT I want to drink beforehand...

When you go to a land based restaurant, does the restaurant tell you what time you have to be there? Do they tell you that you HAVE to dine with 4 or 6 or 8 strangers?

[fcorey]

I don't understand the resistance to AYW dining -- it's like you have to have all your decisions made for you ahead of time -- HELLO? I think I can decide WHEN I want to have dinner, WHERE I want to have dinner, WITH WHOM I want to have dinner, and WHAT I want to drink beforehand...

When you go to a land based restaurant, does the restaurant tell you what time you have to be there? Do they tell you that you HAVE to dine with 4 or 6 or 8 strangers?


I think part of it is that sometimes people don't like change...I've seen this in my own reactions. Personally I am going to reserve judgment until I have to deal with it myself. But I think its going to be interesting to see feedback from people once its been implemented. I think thats another concern in that many feel HAL will bungle the adoption of this and people will be miserable as a result. As I am in a positive mood today I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here and see how it goes. :)

[spacecat]

Ahoy!
I was just ruminating on the 'As You Wish' concept and wondering how it would apply to the following situations:
1. College / Univeristy class schedules.
2. Doctor and dentist appointments.
3. Marketing and sales meetings.
4. Legal proceedings, escrow closings and accountant appointments.
5. Income tax quarterly payment schedules.
6. Fill in the blank.

As You Wish Dining? IHOP, McDonald's, Olive Garden and a 'Slurpee' and hot dog at Circle K comes to mind

Traditional Dining? A structured, appointed time for fine dining without having to wait in line, the need to make a call daily for a reservation or the requirement to 'carry' a beeper.

A McHAL is coming to your ship soon. Enough said. (Gee, venting is fun.)

Bon Voyage and Good Health to one and all!

Lets see....to answer just a few....even though my daughter has made appointments to visit her counselor (as THEY WISH it to be) at her university, several times the counselor has not shown up or has been late..

Don't get me started on doctors visits.....THEY WISH you to make an appointment weeks in advance and heaven help us all if you have an emergency.....

Have had several escrows that haven't closed on time.....no matter what I WISH and what I've been promised....

So that just proves that life doesn't always happen the way we would hope it would. But I'd honestly rather drink that Slurpee and eat that hot dog at my local Circle K, than eat/drink with someone more focused on what I am wearing and whether or not they got the same seat night after night.

I SINCERELY HOPE there is room for both types of dining, but if not, passengers will have to accept what is offered or decide to take a different type of vacation. I won't let where and how I eat bother me as much as waiting in the doctor's waiting room.....!

Shari

[hammybee]

I noticed on NOORDAM, during the AYW experiment, it was like the old two seatings.



Mariner, I have noticed this comment a few times. I think you are confusing the many dining experiements. What you experienced on your winter cruise was not AYW. Passengers were given an arrival window within fixed seating, meaning people could be on different courses, dependent upon time of arrival.

The Noordam went to AYW just this past May, in Alaska. Right now, this minute, it is the only ship in the fleet doing AYW. In theory, passengers arrive when they wish to be seated and can choose to dine alone or be seated with others , just seated.

[mariner]

Thanks Hammy.

Had a thing in our welcome aboard thing. Paid no attention.

Bob does not have a clue, like me.

[BruceMuzz]

Mariner,
Actually, I know my cruise ship history very well. I'm currently writing a book on it - between working my contracts onboard ships.

If you study your cruise ship history a bit better, you will find that fixed seatings have not only "been around since at least the 1950s" as you say, but actually started more than a century ago on some ships. But if you read my post again you will notice that I said, "the VERSION we are familiar with has not been around very long". That is absolutely true. This business about having to be at your dining table by a certain time - and leaving it by a certain time - to allow the next mass of humanity to eat there is a function of the dumbing down of cruising and the result of cruise line companies trying to make cruising affordable to the middle and lower classes in order to make higher profits.
I'm not making any judgements here. Having the middle and lower classes cruising makes my job far easier. Many of today's cruisers are far less discerning, with lower expectations and standards than we experienced a few decades ago.

But if today's cruising public had the higher standards we saw a few decades ago, we would not now need to discuss Open of Fixed Dining. It wouldn't be an issue. Cruisers would demand their own dining tables for the cruise - to be occupied by them whenever they pleased, with whomever they pleased, for as long as they pleased. Just like in the good old days........................

[localady]

Great to hear from you again Bruce!! :D
Looking forward to reading that book!!
Best Regards!:D

[bepsf]

When you go to a land based restaurant, does the restaurant tell you what time you have to be there? Do they tell you that you HAVE to dine with 4 or 6 or 8 strangers?

Actually, Yes. If you try to book a table at one of the many trendy & exclusive restaurants here in town less than a week in advance, the choice you'll often get for a table isn't "As You Wish" but "5.30 or 10pm?"

Sunday Brunch? If you don't have a reservation or you show up between 11am and 1.30, you'll typically stand in line for anywhere from 20 minutes up to an hour.

And don't ever bother showing up anyplace with a party of 6 or more without reservations unless you want to watch several parties for 2 and 4 pass you by.

Many of us prefer not to have to think about "When" and "Where" for the time we're at sea - that's the major appeal of Traditional Seating.

[hammybee]

Mariner,
But if today's cruising public had the higher standards we saw a few decades ago, we would not now need to discuss Open of Fixed Dining. It wouldn't be an issue. Cruisers would demand their own dining tables for the cruise - to be occupied by them whenever they pleased, with whomever they pleased, for as long as they pleased. Just like in the good old days........................

Um, and what might that cost the passenger in 2007 $?

[mariner]

Bruce,

Im very bored.

[bepsf]

Cruisers would demand their own dining tables for the cruise - to be occupied by them whenever they pleased, with whomever they pleased, for as long as they pleased. Just like in the good old days........................

What "Good Old Days" are we talking about - Royal Viking Line? They did have single seating, but they had specific tables which passengers shared with others.

In fact, it's only been relatively recent history that ships have had a great number of tables for 4 and 2. Back in the real "Good Old Days" dining rooms were mostly filled with 6, 8, 10 and 12 tops - and before that, Dining Saloons had great long tables that stretched from one end of the room to the other, and swivel chairs bolted to the floor!

[hammybee]

What "Good Old Days" are we talking about - Royal Viking Line? They did have single seating, but they had specific tables which passengers shared with others.

In fact, it's only been relatively recent history that ships have had a great number of tables for 4 and 2. Back in the real "Good Old Days" dining rooms were mostly filled with 6, 8, 10 and 12 tops - and before that, Dining Saloons had great long tables that stretched from one end of the room to the other, and swivel chairs bolted to the floor!

Where were the spittoons?

[RevNeal]

Where were the spittoons?

Hopefully where the people who chewed were spitting. :eek:

[mariner]

yes and there are lines that still do.

Clearly, you're too busy writing than to serve the middle class masses, of which I consider myself one. But I will be sure to review your book. And since I started cruising in 1968, I can't wait.

[Copper10-8]

Bruce, looking forward to your book! Gotta be good!:)

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!
Great replies. I just thought I'd stir 'the pot' a little. Always enjoy good debating. Actually, when a recent poll was done on the question I chose to 'give it a shot'. Since I have yet to try it I fit into the 'ignorant masses' category. Only have one scheduled trip with HAL in the pipeline for the 11/08 Amazon trip but have confirmed late dining (maybe I should switch the last few days of the trip to try it out, no?). I'm turned 57 last week. My first cruise as a child was in 1958 on the older Statendam (10 day NYC/Carribean). Certainly different times.
In any event, EVERYONE HAVE A GREAT CRUISE WHEREVER YOUR SHIP TAKES YOU!

Bon Voyage and Good Health!
Bob:)

[PennyAgain]

she is worried that all these options for dining will eliminate her favorite meals of the cruise. That is the Midnight Buffet.

Is the Midnight Buffet a goner or still running especially on the Alaska cruises?

Thank you.

[iancal]

It is about money and it is about passenger demand...pure and simiple. HAL is doing it to ensure that they do not elimate a larger proportion of the cruise market who clearly want this alternative. Some may not appreciate it. HAL, like others, are going for the gold.

[hammybee]

she is worried that all these options for dining will eliminate her favorite meals of the cruise. That is the Midnight Buffet.

Is the Midnight Buffet a goner or still running especially on the Alaska cruises?

Thank you.

There is no Midnight Buffet on HAL. There is food later in the evening , usually a theme presentation, but not the food fest that one finds on, say Carnival.

[PennyAgain]

There is no Midnight Buffet on HAL. There is food later in the evening , usually a theme presentation, but not the food fest that one finds on, say Carnival.

Thank you.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I'm still a little confused about this historical data. For as long as we've been cruising I'm just about positive .... strike that:) , I AM positive ... that there have always been 2 sittings (commonly referred to as "Traditional". These were previously called 1st and 2nd sitting, I believe.

These were absolute structured sittings that you arrive at a specific time, there was no window involved. Since we always took 2nd, we did not have to "clear out" for the next group.

So I'm not sure what BruceMuzz means by "relatively short", but other than an early cruise in 1959, we've been cruising regularly on Cunard, Royal Viking, Regent, NCL, Celebrity and HAL since 1980.

To me, 27 years isn't "relatively short". But if it is I'm a lot younger than I thought!!!!:D

[hammybee]

Heather, I don't know the answer.

I have read other occasional posts that made mention of single seatings on HAL. My sense was this was a 50-60's thing, the good ole days. I am thinking one of the posters might have been Host Doug.

Given HAL's 134 year history, short term is relative.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Heather, I don't know the answer.

I have read other occasional posts that made mention of single seatings on HAL. My sense was this was a 50-60's thing, the good ole days. I am thinking one of the posters might have been Host Doug.

Given HAL's 134 year history, short term is relative.

That's true, but for our purposes here where no one has probably cruised much more than 30 to 40 years tops, I consider 27 years not to be a short period of time.

During that period of time, on most lines, there have been 2 sittings. Can't speak for HAL since I didn't cruise on HAL until 2001.

[ncsongbird]

Am I missing something? As I see it "as you wish" dining is just adding another option. It does not require the folks who like or want traditional dining to change. It seems to me that now everyone will get to choose what works for them personally. So why do the traditional dining folks seem to be kicking and screaming about this?

[O2B@C]

Am I missing something? As I see it "as you wish" dining is just adding another option. It does not require the folks who like or want traditional dining to change. It seems to me that now everyone will get to choose what works for them personally. So why do the traditional dining folks seem to be kicking and screaming about this?

Yes, sadly, you are missing something, but it's not your fault. You should be right, and if you were, we would not be kicking and screaming. But if you read the "sticky" thread on this topic (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=582072), and the "book early" thread (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=601536), you'll see what the problem is. In a nutshell, the way HAL is implementing the new system, it is NOT true that "everyone will get to choose." Instead, it appears that only those who book early and/or have suite preference - and sometimes not even they -are getting confirmed traditional dining on request. Most people who request traditional are being wait-listed, or forced to accept open seating. So, as some have said on those other threads, it's not really "as you wish," it's "as HAL wishes." Hence the uproar.

[SharonN]

Am I missing something? As I see it "as you wish" dining is just adding another option. It does not require the folks who like or want traditional dining to change. It seems to me that now everyone will get to choose what works for them personally. So why do the traditional dining folks seem to be kicking and screaming about this?

Because we're NOT being given a choice, we're being waitlisted for Traditional seating which is not what we'd like to choose.

[lorekauf]

Am I missing something? As I see it "as you wish" dining is just adding another option. It does not require the folks who like or want traditional dining to change. It seems to me that now everyone will get to choose what works for them personally. So why do the traditional dining folks seem to be kicking and screaming about this?

I am one of the folks who likes the traditional early seating. I used to be able to book about 6 months in advance and get the early seating. Now I am booking over a year out and I am barely able to get early seating. I wanted the 6:15 and it's already gone. I travel by myself so I enjoy eating with the same people every night. I get to experience the open seating at breakfast and lunch and I always seem to have to sit with people who completely ignore you or are telling you their gory pet operation stories etc. I think people have a tendency to act a little better when they see you night after night. I don't know maybe I've been lucky with my table mates at night. Frankly I don't know why it's such a big deal to have open seating on every cruise line. Just because you can get it on a land vacation does a cruise have to be the same?

[hammybee]

Because we're NOT being given a choice, we're being waitlisted for Traditional seating which is not what we'd like to choose.

It seems to me that what is happening is uncertainty as to when/where some will land for dinner. Being waitlisted is not the same thing as being denied.

So many sails over the past 18 months have been showing all dining as waitlisted on cruises that were, at the time, far from being sold out, well before this AYW thing. This tells me that HAL is holding space for a large group or giving preference to some travel consortiums who have options on many cabins.

As we all know, so many thing we wish for, don't come true. I think the naming convention is rather appropriate, don't you?

In any event, you are sailing on the Rotterdam early next year with a fine bunch and regardless of come what may, you will be just fine.

[SharonN]

It seems to me that what is happening is uncertainty as to when/where some will land for dinner. Being waitlisted is not the same thing as being denied.

...

As we all know, so many thing we wish for, don't come true. I think the naming convention is rather appropriate, don't you?

In any event, you are sailing on the Rotterdam early next year with a fine bunch and regardless of come what may, you will be just fine.


The naming convention is probably making it worse based on what we're seeing so far :) but I guess Marketing/Sales people don't really care if what they say is totally truthful or not. I'm sure my trip will end up being great but this will definitely impact how/when I book the next one. In the meantime there are obviously more important things to worry about but guess this is giving us all a place to let off some steam:D

[HeatherInFlorida]

It seems to me that what is happening is uncertainty as to when/where some will land for dinner. Being waitlisted is not the same thing as being denied.
..........................
As we all know, so many thing we wish for, don't come true.
............

Hammybee, I don't think anyone would disagree with what you're saying because while being waitlisted is not being denied, neither is it saying you'll get your choice.

Not all wishes come true, but for those of us who cruise once a year and pay quite a bit of money for that privilege, it really should be more than a "wish". We should be able to enjoy the dining we prefer or be given the option to cancel.

We are not given that option. The people who find themselves waitlisted may or may not get confirmation before final payment. After that, it's too late. If it doesn't matter to the person, than no biggie. But it does matter to some of us.

Picture this .............

Imagine if you pick your cabin number, perhaps a longed for aft cabin overlooking the wake, and your reservation form says "waitlisted".

Now imagine you're told that they're waiting to see if they get any large groups who would like their cabins all close together so your cabin may, down the line, become unavailable.

But not to worry! They'll find you a cabin somewhere else on the ship.:rolleyes:

I can see this board lighting up now. Talk about a HOT TOPIC!!!

[Brownie Scout]

Nicely put, Heather! I'm jumping into this discussion a bit late, but I too feel that As You Wish is a misnomer. We were waitlisted on the Noordam for our July cruise, and when we made out final payment were told we had AYW. However, when we actually boarded, we were given assigned seating, much to our delight. We were never told--and we never asked-- how we got so lucky, but HAL's methodology seems to be something akin to a coin toss.

That said, I often sail solo, and have become very reluctant to book HAL (or Princess) since I too don't want to get stuck with "musical dinner companions" every night. That leaves me with the choice--for now--of Celebrity of RCCL for my solo voyages: So be it.

[kryos]

Am I missing something? As I see it "as you wish" dining is just adding another option. It does not require the folks who like or want traditional dining to change.
For now, it won't change. But who's to say what the future will bring? And I know people will say that both formats have existed successfully on Princess for years, but remember ... Princess ships have mostly been built to accommodate this sort of thing ... two entirely separate dining rooms. HAL ships are not built that way ... especially the smaller ships in the fleet. This is going to be a major problem for HAL ... offering these two options. If more people want As You Wish, HAL is gonna wind up not just using one level of the dining room for that format, but also converting part of the other level to accommodate it. It's gonna be a major pain in the you know what for them. So, I would imagine HAL will run "parallel" for a year or so, and then if As You Wish becomes the overwhelming choice among passengers, traditional will be phased out at some point. Then everyone will have to take As You Wish and like it.

Also, even while both formats are being offered, if Traditional is filled for your cruise, you'll get As You Wish Dining ... whether you "wish" it or not.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

I travel by myself so I enjoy eating with the same people every night. I get to experience the open seating at breakfast and lunch and I always seem to have to sit with people who completely ignore you or are telling you their gory pet operation stories etc. I think people have a tendency to act a little better when they see you night after night.
We are the exact people who this "As you Wish" is gonna screw. We're gonna be eating at big tables every night, always with a different group of people, with no chance for forming any friendships. I have many wonderful memories of dinners onboard HAL ... great tablemates most of the time ... where we had become fast friends by the end of the cruise, exchanging email addresses and telephone numbers, taking pictures, the whole shebang on the last night of the cruise. We're not gonna get that with "As You Wish." And that's why I honestly don't care for it.

But, as I said before ... the majority will rule, and I think the majority of people ... the overwhelming majority ... do not travel alone. For them, "As You Wish" will probably become the favorite, simply because of the flexibility it offers. I honestly think "As You Wish" dining is going to rapidly become the favorite to the point where the line will not too long down the pike eliminate Traditional dining entirely.

Now, I've talked to friends who have sailed on some of the luxury lines that have had open seating for years. They tell me my fears about "As You Wish" are unfounded. But I doubt that. They tell me that they have never had a problem on some of those other lines being seated with very enjoyable table partners and they came away loving open seating. I myself loved it on the QE2 ... but there I was traveling with a friend. I would have hated to be in the Caronia Dining Room as a single. I watched a priest at the next table dining alone almost every night ... with the one exception being when the Hotel Manager joined him one evening.

The luxury cruise lines carry less people than the mass market or even premium lines do. The staff to guest ratio is also much lower. The matri 'd in one of their dining rooms has more than ample opportunity to get to know his guests ... who wouldn't mind a single joining their table ... and who would. He can put people together based on what he has gotten to know about their personalities ... who would enjoy meeting who ... that sort of thing. On a mass market line, good luck. That matri 'd is not gonna have the time to query other guests about whether they would mind a single joining them. If he has a large table forming, he'll put the single there ... even if everyone at that large table is part of the same group traveling together ... and even if that group is not too crazy about a stranger being shoved in their midst. If the matri 'd has a problem locating the single somewhere, he's gonna just take the easy way out and plop them at a table for two ... by themselves. Open seating dining is not going to be the same thing on a mass market line as it is on a luxury ship only carrying maybe 300 passengers tops.

That's why I am so against this. I love sailing HAL and hate to see the day when I will have to stop simply because dining time has become too awkward for me on their ships.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Krazy Kruizers]

And How will it apply to the Prinsendam which has only a one level dining room????

[esther e]

I'm getting stressed out that we may have to do traditional when all we want is open!!!:D Open may be such a draw that it will become filled right away.

[O2B@C]

.... The luxury cruise lines carry less people than the mass market or even premium lines do. The staff to guest ratio is also much lower. The [maitre d'] in one of their dining rooms has more than ample opportunity to get to know his guests ... who wouldn't mind a single joining their table ... and who would. He can put people together based on what he has gotten to know about their personalities ... who would enjoy meeting who ... that sort of thing. On a mass market line, good luck. That [maitre d'] is not gonna have the time to query other guests about whether they would mind a single joining them. If he has a large table forming, he'll put the single there ... even if everyone at that large table is part of the same group traveling together ... and even if that group is not too crazy about a stranger being shoved in their midst. If the [maitre d']has a problem locating the single somewhere, he's gonna just take the easy way out and plop them at a table for two ... by themselves. Open seating dining is not going to be the same thing on a mass market line as it is on a luxury ship only carrying maybe 300 passengers tops. ....

That's a very good point, Rita, and extremely well explained. Thank you for adding it to the discussion.

[lorekauf]

I'm getting stressed out that we may have to do traditional when all we want is open!!!:D Open may be such a draw that it will become filled right away.

I don't think you will have to worry about that one. On HAL and Princess it seems anytime or AYW is the last one to fill up.

[hammybee]

I don't think you will have to worry about that one. On HAL and Princess it seems anytime or AYW is the last one to fill up.

Actually, there is a poster on this board, who chose the Noordam because it offered AYW. Unfortunately, she did not get what she wished because a large group trumed the entire venue.

[lorekauf]

Actually, there is a poster on this board, who chose the Noordam because it offered AYW. Unfortunately, she did not get what she wished because a large group trumed the entire venue.


I'm amazed. I've never heard that one before. Must have missed that post.

[CDRMark]

We are the exact people who this "As you Wish" is gonna screw. We're gonna be eating at big tables every night, always with a different group of people, with no chance for forming any friendships. Snip...And that's why I honestly don't care for it.
Snip.....
Blue skies ...

--rita
I also forsee a significant increase in people "wishing" for a table for two, rather than being forced into this scenario.
Cheers
Mark

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!
I started this thread as a philosophical concept, i.e., how would this impact your life if we 'did' everything on the 'As You Wish" basis. Great replies but again it's turning into the recently implemented or soon to be implemented dining room arrangements aboard a cruise ship. Some care for structure and/or the ability to maintain a tradition that, appears to many on this board, meets their comfort level, their desires and their prior experiences. Others, prefer a change for convience sake whether it be a desire to dine when the 'urge calls', a desire to dine anytime following a port visit or desire to not be 'nailed down' to a specific appointed dining time while vacatoning.
Myself, I believe both 'sides of the aisle' can be granted their wishes with proper implementation of the program. I guess some of us questions HAL's ability to do so while maintaining a high level of customer service and satisfaction. I only say this because of past prior policy changes (e.g. tipping, smoking restrictions, internet gifts and liquor packages, etc.) often times found 'us' wondering if the left hand, Seattle, knows what the right hand, the cruise ship, is doing and visa versa. Time will tell.
In any event, keep the debate alive on this thread and others yet to be written and, more importantly, HAVE A GREAT CRUISE! Thank God we all have the ability to experience and/ worry about such things. How spoiled we are.....

Bon Voyage and Good Health!
Bob:)

[bruceh4]

And How will it apply to the Prinsendam which has only a one level dining room????Very easy the Prinsendam actually has 2 dinning rooms on one level.

[RevNeal]

Very easy the Prinsendam actually has 2 dinning rooms on one level.

Do you mean the two areas of the La Fontaine Dining Room: the large area in aft and a narrow area on the starboard side? I have not yet been aboard the Prinsendam, but I was under the impression that it was still one dining room.

[Copper10-8]

Do you mean the two areas of the La Fontaine Dining Room: the large area in aft and a narrow area on the starboard side? I have not yet been aboard the Prinsendam, but I was under the impression that it was still one dining room.

The La Fontaine is currently used as one big dining room with two seatings however, there are a set of fire doors where the long end on the starboard side ends and the larger portion that covers the entire width of the aft part of Prinsendam begins. Here's a couple of problems:

#1 There is only one entrance/exit to the 'large part' of the La Fontaine and that is via the 'narrow part' (even if you take the aft stairwell, it still deposits you at the end of the 'narrow part') so if you want to call it 'two dining rooms' be aware that you can't get to the one in 'the back' unless you go through the one 'on the side';) .

#2 The 'narrow part" is just that: narrow. I don't believe it comes close to even half the capacity of the 'large part'. Plus there's only that central aisle to walk through.

Prinsendam will be the last ship in the fleet to start AYW dining next year. Before she's ready to do just that, there's gonna be some heavy thinking taking place in the emerald city. Might even take some stuff taking place in drydock.

[RevNeal]

John,

That was what I was thinking, based upon the photos and the deck plans.
Perhaps Doug was meaning the Pinnacle Grill? HAL isn't going to do away with revenue Dining to enable AYW and Traditional divisions.

Perhaps they'll do AYW in the starboard-side narrow area, where the coming and going of AYW diners won't disturb the two set dining session aft.

[Copper10-8]

Perhaps Doug was meaning the Pinnacle Grill?


Doug or Bruce? Who's on first?;)

[Copper10-8]

Here's that entrance (only a partial view, sorry) to the 'large part' ( in the two pics, to the right of Raj, the Asst Dining Room Manager and in the other one to the right of Maria and her nightly mission for mints from Frederick, the Yum Yum Man)

[HeatherInFlorida]

Ahoy!
I started this thread as a philosophical concept, i.e., how would this impact your life if we 'did' everything on the 'As You Wish" basis. ..................

Threads do take on a mind of their own, don't they? I was interested in your initial concept.

Truth be known, I remember when we didn't make doctor appointments. We arrived "as we wished" and waited and waited and waited and waited...........:o
Do you mean the two areas of the La Fontaine Dining Room: the large area in aft and a narrow area on the starboard side? I have not yet been aboard the Prinsendam, but I was under the impression that it was still one dining room.

These are 2 entirely separate dining rooms contrary to what John says below. However, he is correct about there only being one entrance to the DR. You do not, however, have to go through the narrow DR to get to another deck. There are actually elevators and a main stairway separating them.

I know this because if you went to the Ocean Bar before dinner you had to go through the narrow portion of the DR to get to the larger part. This could be a long wait.

But if you came down the stairs or the elevator, you could enter the main part of the dining room without ever going into the narrow part.

I'm hoping this diagram comes up!!!!!

http://www.cruisedeckplans.com/DP/847932/Prinsendam/images/decklowerpromenade.gif

The La Fontaine is currently used as one big dining room with two seatings however, there are a set of fire doors where the long end on the starboard side ends and the larger portion that covers the entire width of the aft part of Prinsendam begins. Here's a couple of problems:

#1 There is only one entrance/exit to the 'large part' of the La Fontaine and that is via the 'narrow part' (even if you take the aft stairwell, it still deposits you at the end of the 'narrow part') so if you want to call it 'two dining rooms' be aware that you can't get to the one in 'the back' unless you go through the one 'on the side';) .

#2 The 'narrow part" is just that: narrow. I don't believe it comes close to even half the capacity of the 'large part'. Plus there's only that central aisle to walk through.

...........................

[RevNeal]

Doug or Bruce? Who's on first?;)

Ooops ... Bruce!! I meant Bruce! Sorry!

[RevNeal]

Threads do take on a mind of their own, don't they? I was interested in your initial concept.

Truth be known, I remember when we didn't make doctor appointments. We arrived "as we wished" and waited and waited and waited and waited...........:o


These are 2 entirely separate dining rooms contrary to what John says below. However, he is correct about there only being one entrance to the DR. You do not, however, have to go through the narrow DR to get to another deck. There are actually elevators and a main stairway separating them.

I know this because if you went to the Ocean Bar before dinner you had to go through the narrow portion of the DR to get to the larger part. This could be a long wait.

But if you came down the stairs or the elevator, you could enter the main part of the dining room without ever going into the narrow part.

I'm hoping this diagram comes up!!!!!

http://www.cruisedeckplans.com/DP/847932/Prinsendam/images/decklowerpromenade.gif


So ... if you come down/up the stairs and go to the right and around the corner you don't have to go THROUGH the narrow starboard-side portion of the dining room. Ok ... makes sense.

HOWEVER ... I don't see too many people by-passing that narrow starboard side to head back to the larger area of the Dining room ... and especially not when coming from cocktails in the Ocean Bar! Hence, if they put traditional there (and, thereby, SEVERELY LIMIT the size of the traditional area) it's going to make for VERY annoying traffic patterns.

The difficult thing will be that AYW people will not be happy with a tiny dining room, like that area on the starboard side forward the aft stairs. That's NOT a large area, so AYW would be high restricted in terms of availability. However ... perhaps, given the nature of the ship and her itineraries (and likely appeal to traditionalists), that would still be the best option.

[serendipity1499]

[quote=HeatherInFlorida;11113070]Threads do take on a mind of their own, don't they? I was interested in your initial concept.

These are 2 entirely separate dining rooms contrary to what John says below. However, he is correct about there only being one entrance to the DR. You do not, however, have to go through the narrow DR to get to another deck. There are actually elevators and a main stairway separating them.

I know this because if you went to the Ocean Bar before dinner you had to go through the narrow portion of the DR to get to the larger part. This could be a long wait.

But if you came down the stairs or the elevator, you could enter the main part of the dining room without ever going into the narrow part. quote

Thanks Heather that is exactly the way we remembered it...While many who were in the Ocean Bar did walk through the smaller dining room others came down the aft elevator or used the aft staircase.. There always were lots of people coming into the rear area from other decks..We always came up the rear staircase from our Main deck cabins & went straight into the aft Dining room, since we don't usually have cocktails before dinner, but prefer to have wine with dinner..

If Passengers go directly to the Show room then they might walk through the smaller DR, but we always went back to our cabins first..

Cheers..:) Betty

[Copper10-8]

Yup, I was wrong, let the beatings begin;) ! Forgot about the aft elevators, thanks for the diagram, Heather. Seems like we always entered the 'wide' portion via the 'narrow' portion probably because we were always hanging out in the Ocean Bar prior to dinner. I do remember that there sometimes was a back-up that went into the 'narrow' portion of the La Fontaine.

We also, at times, took that semi-circular stairway down from Explorers Lounge that dumps you into the 'narrow' part of the LF. Personally speaking, I don't feel that the 'narrow' portion is a real great place to have your dinner table on Prinsendam.

[serendipity1499]

Personally speaking, I don't feel that the 'narrow' portion is a real great place to have your dinner table on Prinsendam.

I agree, we would rather be in the Main DR...Also believe that several people were complaining that the small room was extremely noisy, but can't be sure..My thoughts would be that most Prinsendam Passengers would still opt for Traditional & HAL will use the small room for As You wish Dining..

We thoroughly enjoyed being in the Main DR, although we were a bit segregated from the Open part..We were seated at the closest table to rail which is just to the right side of the entrance..There are three round tables for 8 together & we sat at the Middle table...The two tables on either side of us were usually empty, so we had our wonderful DR Stewards all to ourselves.. We had fantastic service :) & such good fun with them..

JMO..:) Betty

[HeatherInFlorida]

Yup, I was wrong, let the beatings begin;) ! Forgot about the aft elevators, thanks for the diagram, Heather. ........................Personally speaking, I don't feel that the 'narrow' portion is a real great place to have your dinner table on Prinsendam.

LOL!!!! No beatings, John!!!:D But knowing how well you know and love the Prinsendam, your post had me in a whirl of confusion!:)

In fact, I actually questionned my recollection and that's why I Googled for the diagram when I couldn't access the HAL site.

And I agree ... we made sure ahead of time that we would be seated in the larger DR. In fact, it was from what I read here that led me to do that.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!
Since were off the original topic a tad I thought I give my observation(s) of the dining room on the Prinsendam, aka, the La Fontaine. True it does get bottled up with people passing by intially when seatings(s) are started primarily from those coming in from the Ocean Bar, Crow's Nest and forward sections of the ship. However, after everything settles down the atmosphere is quite delightful and more importantly, IMO, more intimate for couples that to prefer to dine alone (especially the two tops, which are limited, along the starboard windows). The so-called 'two tops' in the main dining room are actually six-tops pulled apart approx. 4 inches or less to give only the illusion of a table for two and a table for four. I also found the forward section less noisy. Table #7 is our favorite.
Just thought I'd pipe in respecectfully.
In any event, HAVE A GREAT CRUISE!

Bon Voyage and Good Health!
Bob:)

[CruiseBumm]

AYW is fine for those who wish it. Butfor me I apy for the service and the dinning may not be gormet or 5+stars. but it is a few cuts above Denny's or IHOP.

Each chooses his or her own idea of fine dinning. I respect each persons choice, but if I wish reserved seating at a predetermined time, than thats what I wish. Don't I deserve my AYW dinning also?:rolleyes:

[cathy_kearns]

Bruce,

You clearly don't know your history.

Seatings have been around since at least the 1950s.

True open seating has been done on high-end lines for years. BUT, you're assigned a table. Come whenever, between 6-9.

So Regent Seven Seas doesn't have "True" open seating? On Regent last summer we could show up whenever we wanted and have a choice of a table for just our party, or a table with other guests. If we chose other guests they would seat us at a large table with other guests who had also just been seated. If we wanted to sit at a table for two, or perhaps a table for four with another couple we just met, they would do that. We usually chose the table with others, and sometimes it was people traveling solo. We always were seated with sociable, interesting people. After all, if they didn't feel all the social that night they would have opted for a table by themselves.

So the table wasn't assigned, and certainly wasn't the same table every night.

[esther e]

So Regent Seven Seas doesn't have "True" open seating? On Regent last summer we could show up whenever we wanted and have a choice of a table for just our party, or a table with other guests. If we chose other guests they would seat us at a large table with other guests who had also just been seated. If we wanted to sit at a table for two, or perhaps a table for four with another couple we just met, they would do that. We usually chose the table with others, and sometimes it was people traveling solo. We always were seated with sociable, interesting people. After all, if they didn't feel all the social that night they would have opted for a table by themselves.

So the table wasn't assigned, and certainly wasn't the same table every night.


Absolutely, Regent has "true" open seating. We've been on 9 of their cruises as well as 3 Oceania, and they are the same as far as dining. And incidentally, we have never had to wait for a table, whether it's just the two of us or a group.

[cathy_kearns]

Absolutely, Regent has "true" open seating. We've been on 9 of their cruises as well as 3 Oceania, and they are the same as far as dining. And incidentally, we have never had to wait for a table, whether it's just the two of us or a group.

If HAL can pull off the AYW dining to be like Regent's it will be extremely popular. But if waits become common, I think it will not be well received.

[terrydtx]

I don't understand the resistance to AYW dining -- it's like you have to have all your decisions made for you ahead of time -- HELLO? I think I can decide WHEN I want to have dinner, WHERE I want to have dinner, WITH WHOM I want to have dinner, and WHAT I want to drink beforehand...

When you go to a land based restaurant, does the restaurant tell you what time you have to be there? Do they tell you that you HAVE to dine with 4 or 6 or 8 strangers?

Very well stated, and for those of us who preferr to eat when "we" want to eat in the fine dining room we now have the choice of chosing a premium line like HAL over a less than premium NCL.

[NoNoNanette]

Very well stated, and for those of us who preferr to eat when "we" want to eat in the fine dining room we now have the choice of chosing a premium line like HAL over a less than premium NCL.

Kindly let me preface this by saying that I LOVE HAL. I'm HOOKED.

But..... I really question your description of Holland America as being a "premium line".

I've been tempted to try a "premium" line, but the prices seem so far-out, that I'm no longer considering them... for now, anyway.

I guess that "premium" is in the eyes of the beholder.... much like "proper dress" is. :)

[Copper10-8]

Kindly let me preface this by saying that I LOVE HAL. I'm HOOKED.

But..... I really question your description of Holland America as being a "premium line".

I've been tempted to try a "premium" line, but the prices seem so far-out, that I'm no longer considering them... for now, anyway.

I guess that "premium" is in the eyes of the beholder.... much like "proper dress" is. :)

I'm keeping my premium eye on your beholder, NNN;)

Here's some fuel for that little campfire::rolleyes:

The World Ocean & CruiseLiner Society identifies Regent Seven Seas Cruises, The Yachts of Seabourn, Silversea Cruises, and Crystal Cruises as Premium or Ultra Deluxe cruise lines.

Categorized as Deluxe 5-star Plus lines so, a tad below are: Holland America Line:) , Oceania Cruises, SeaDream Yacht Club, Windstar Cruises and Peter Deilman's "Deutschland" (only ocean-going cruise ship, rest are river cruise ships)

Deluxe 5-star are identified as: Princess Cruises, Cunard Line, Celebrity Cruises and Disney Cruise Line.

The only High Superior 4-star Plus line is: Carnival Cruise Lines

Superior 4-star are: Costa Cruise Line, Orient Line, and Royal Caribbean International.

Categorized as Standard 4-star lines are: Norwegian Cruise Line and MSC Cruises.

WOCLS categorizes as Specialty Cruises the following lines: Majestic America Line, Cruise West, Star Clipper Cruises, American Cruise Lines, Discovery World Cruises, Viking River Cruises and Norwegian Coastal Voyage Inc.

[bicker]

I really question your description of Holland America as being a "premium line".I tend to agree. I would connect the word "premium" with a cruise line that you "pay a premium" for -- you pay extra to get more. I chose HAL because it was the low-cost provider, the opposite of paying a premium.

[NoNoNanette]

Good afternoon, my handsome Copper-Bopper! (An old Ohio term from the 80's) *she sez fondly*

Keep your eyes right here, baby! ;)

************************

Bicker- Precisely! We'd been under the impression that HAL was an "expensive geriatric cruiseline" for years. Then, for the helluvit, we priced an itinerary that we liked.

Their pricing is highly competitive, and not the least bit conducive towards drawing those who are looking for a "PREMIUM" Cruising Experience.

Again.... I'm not being negative towards HAL.... can't WAIT for our next cruise!

[kryos]

But..... I really question your description of Holland America as being a "premium line".

I agree with you. I love how people refer to HAL as "premuim." What makes it more premium than say Princess or Cunard?

To me, premium means you pay a bit more to get a bit more. To me, something like Grill Class on Cunard or perhaps an all-inclusive line would truly be premium. Those lines charge more, and they generally have smaller, more intimate ships ... where service is definitely kicked up a notch. And this would even include Cunard when you consider that there really are not that many grill class passengers on the boat.

HAL is a wonderful line ... and it's my line of choice. But I wouldn't necessarily consider it any more premium than other lines. You get the same basic ammenities for the same basic price. You get standard cabin accommodations for the class cabin you book. You eat in the same dining room regardless of your booked accommodations, enjoying the same food and the same service as everyone else.

You will pay for soda and water and drinks ... just like on every other line. You will pay to play bingo or use the spa facilities. So, again, I ask ... where is the premium designation coming from? Yes, the ships are elegant, but then that's HAL's trademark. Other cruise lines have other trademarks ... such as kid-friendly ammenities like ice skating rinks and rock climbing walls. HAL's just happens to be fresh flowers and lots of art. It's the things that draw the HAL brand of consumer.

To me a true premium line is one that people pay a premium to sail and thus fully expect to get a higher level of service and ammenities; i.e., lower crew to guest ratio, some or all drinks included, free water and soda, etc. HAL is not a line where you are gonna find this ... no matter what accommodations on the boat you book. It's just the way it is.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[RevNeal]

Here is a different way of defining the rankings (a way that I tend to think is probably more accurate for today):

Found at: smartertravel.com --

What is a mainstream cruise?

Often referred to as resort, contemporary, or mass-market cruises, these ships provide an experience similar to that of a resort. The hallmarks of the mainstream cruise lines are large ships and plentiful activities. The ships usually hold 1,000 to 3,000 guests, and because of the sheer number of people, you may find smaller standard cabins, long lines, and acceptable (but not amazing) service. On the plus side, these ships offer an incredible number of activities. "Anything they can think of to put on a ship, they do," says Mike Wild, vice president of industry affairs for Cruise Planners in Coral Springs, FL. "You can do everything from napkin folding to ice carving to climbing a wall." Ships can have multiple pools, waterslides, ice skating rinks, rock-climbing walls, and several lounges and dance clubs. Mainstream cruises also are the best for families with children, as the ships include children- and teen-specific lounges and activities.

Mainstream cruises tend to cost $100 to $350 per person per day. Mainstream lines include Carnival, Costa, Disney, Norwegian, and Royal Caribbean

What is a premium cruise?

Premium cruises offer many of the activities of a mainstream line, but with more upscale amenities and service. Ships range from mid-sized to large, holding between 500 and 1,500 guests. Staterooms will be slightly more spacious than in mainstream ships, food will be more gourmet, and the decor more elegant or conservative. You'll have plenty of choices for activities, but without the summer camp sensibility that mainstream cruises have. Children are welcome, but facilities won't be as extensive as on the mainstream ships.

Premium cruises tend to cost $150 to $400 per person per day. Premium lines include Celebrity, Holland America, Princess, and Oceania.

What is a luxury cruise?

Luxury cruises offer the utmost in personalized service. Ships to tend to be smaller, holding from 100 to 1,000 passengers, but staterooms tend to be bigger and often all cabins are suites or have balconies. The space to guest ratio is high and the staff to guest ratio is often two to one, leading to excellent service. Amenities will be high quality, with many little touches such as designer linens and bath products and fresh flowers. Alcoholic beverages and gratuities are often included in the cruise price, as opposed to mainstream and premium cruises. The itineraries tend to include more exotic and international destinations, and cruise lengths are longer, anywhere from seven days to several-month world cruises. Ship activities are confined to guest lecturers and cooking demonstrations, art auctions, and other refined pasttimes; you usually won't find loud, all-night discos or bingo competitions on a luxury sailing.

Luxury cruises tend to cost $400 to $1,000 per person per day. Luxury lines include Crystal, Radisson Seven Seas, Seabourn, and Silversea.

[bicker]

Here is a different way of defining the rankings (a way that I tend to think is probably more accurate for today):Premium cruises offer many of the activities of a mainstream line, but with more upscale amenities and service.No one has provided a clear list of such amenities and service, that would differentiate Noordam from Serenade of the Seas.

Ships range from mid-sized to large, holding between 500 and 1,500 guests.Noordam serves 1918 passengers.

Staterooms will be slightly more spacious than in mainstream shipsNope, just about the same size -- a marginal difference at best, based on the numbers.

food will be more gourmetFrom the photos and reviews, all indications are Noordam and Serenade of the Seas will be completely comparable.

I cannot imagine a way to measure anything in today's travel and leisure industry that is more accurate than money.

[kryos]

I cannot imagine a way to measure anything in today's travel and leisure industry that is more accurate than money.
I have to say that I agree with this. We can call HAL a premium line, but is it truly a "premium" line on all ships? Maybe the Prisendam, a very small and elegant ship, may be considered premium ... but what about the Zuiderdam, the Westerdam or the Noordam? Those ships aren't much smaller than some of the Carnival or RCL ships. Sorry, but I honestly wouldn't consider them any more premium than one of those ships. They are just "different" ... that's all.

Sure, HAL would like people to believe they are a premium line. Who wouldn't? The fact is that while some ships in the HAL fleet may possibly be considered premium grade ... it would be a real stretch to consider the whole line as anything more than another mass market cruise line.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[RevNeal]

No one has provided a clear list of such amenities and service, that would differentiate Noordam from Serenade of the Seas.

Noordam serves 1918 passengers.

Nope, just about the same size -- a marginal difference at best, based on the numbers.

From the photos and reviews, all indications are Noordam and Serenade of the Seas will be completely comparable.

I cannot imagine a way to measure anything in today's travel and leisure industry that is more accurate than money.

bicker, once you've actually cruised on HAL you will be in a far better position to answer these questions than (certainly) I. From my own perspective, the pre-Vista HAL vessels (and S and R class ships) certainly matched the descriptions, and more than just marginally.

[RevNeal]

I have to say that I agree with this. We can call HAL a premium line, but is it truly a "premium" line on all ships? Maybe the Prisendam, a very small and elegant ship, may be considered premium ... but what about the Zuiderdam, the Westerdam or the Noordam? Those ships aren't much smaller than some of the Carnival or RCL ships. Sorry, but I honestly wouldn't consider them any more premium than one of those ships. They are just "different" ... that's all.

See my post, above, Rita. You're in a better position to say than either of us, having been aboard HAL (one Vista, and mostly R-class ships) and on ships of other lines. Nevertheless, you're also generalizing (which cannot be avoided). HAL has at least one characteristic of a Luxury Line that most of the Mainstreams do NOT have many of (other than for repositioning) but Premiums DO have: many itineraries of extended length and wide-ranging breadth. You, yourself, have enjoyed some of those.

Also, consider the price ranges listed:

Mainstream: $100 to $350 per person per day
Premium: $150 to $400 per person per day
Luxury: $400 to $1,000 per person per day

Note those ranges overlap significantly between Mainstream and Premium, but almost none (a $1 overlap!) between Premium and Luxury. This means that the differences between Mainstream and Premium will be LESS about the dollar values and more about how the product is presented and the general atmosphere being presented aboard ship.

I have to book an inside lower-level cabin in order to get close to $150 pp/pd on HAL (without factoring in the single supplement), and then it usually has to be on one of the more frequented itineraries. Run the numbers for one of the more exotic cruises -- particularly those of any real length. How much were they pp/pd (factor OUT the ss). My own observation is that, for cruises of 10 days or longer, it's HARD to get that figure much bellow $200 pp/pd unless one is in an MM cabin.

For instance, my up-coming cruise on the Volendam we're paying $210 pp/pd for a 10-day cruise in an outside cabin midships on maindeck. We might have been able to find it cheaper had we shopped more, but we're happy with this TA for these kinds of bookings.

The Eurodam's inaugural is going to be horrendously expensive ... on the order of a Luxury cruise's pp/pd lower-range. Yes ... right at $400 pp/pd. But, that's a special case (maiden Cruise, aft verandah, etc). If my second cruise (July 15th) aboard her were going to be double-occupency, my fair for the second week in an inside MM cabin would be: $194.70 pp. As it is I'm paying (with single supplement) $285.15 per day.

I guess the last time I got close to going under $150 pp/pd was aboard the Noordam this past January (again, if one factors out the single supplement). But those January runs of the Noordam were notoriously cheap.

What's the average for an Alaska cruise this year? I priced (online with a major discounter) ONE such cruise, in MM category double occupancy, just to see: $223.88 pp/pd (that was for a late September cruise, if booked today ... booking for next year returns a far better rate for an inside cabin. Maybe I'll take my Mom on a cruise to Alaska next May?)

[bicker]

bicker, once you've actually cruised on HAL you will be in a far better position to answer these questions than (certainly) I.Yes, in the meantime all I can rely on is the photos and reviews of others, and like I mentioned, all indications are Noordam and Serenade of the Seas will be completely comparable. OH! And also the pricing, where HAL comes in as the low-cost provider.

From my own perspective, the pre-Vista HAL vessels (and S and R class ships) certainly matched the descriptions, and more than just marginally.Indeed, and the post-Vista HAL vessels are apparently going to be even larger than Vista class. All indications are that they will be even less like what you remember HAL to be than the Vista class ships are.

[jhannah]

The Eurodam's inaugural is going to be horrendously expensive ... on the order of a Luxury cruise's pp/pd lower-range. Yes ... right at $400 pp/pd. Yes, it's expensive alright. But our cruise rate is well under $400, and is a tad less than our Western Mediterranean cruise on the Noordam last year. I guess we got a fairly good deal for the inaugural.

[RevNeal]

Yes, it's expensive alright. But our cruise rate is well under $400, and is a tad less than our Western Mediterranean cruise on the Noordam last year. I guess we got a fairly good deal for the inaugural.

Cabin Category?

[RevNeal]

Yes, in the meantime all I can rely on is the photos and reviews of others, and like I mentioned, all indications are Noordam and Serenade of the Seas will be completely comparable. OH! And also the pricing, where HAL comes in as the low-cost provider.

On some itineraries and in some market areas, yes. Not always.

Indeed, and the post-Vista HAL vessels are apparently going to be even larger than Vista class. All indications are that they will be even less like what you remember HAL to be than the Vista class ships are.

Are you trying to rub it in?

[bicker]

Not really trying per se. It's just inescapable. >shrug<

[kryos]

See my post, above, Rita. You're in a better position to say than either of us, having been aboard HAL (one Vista, and mostly R-class ships) and on ships of other lines. Nevertheless, you're also generalizing (which cannot be avoided). HAL has at least one characteristic of a Luxury Line that most of the Mainstreams do NOT have many of (other than for repositioning) but Premiums DO have: many itineraries of extended length and wide-ranging breadth. You, yourself, have enjoyed some of those.

And that's exactly why I say only SOME ships/some itineraries even come close to premium ... specifically those exotic itineraries on the smaller ships. But if I book a b2b Caribbean on the Zuiderdam ... which I did in 2004 ... I honestly don't feel it's a "premium" experience at all. Oh, it's a different experience than it would be on Carnival or RCL ... but not necessarily a better one.

But then ... by the same token ... I'd be willing to bet that if I took an 18-day repositioning cruise on the Carnival Liberty I would get just as "premium" an experience as I would on a similar HAL cruise. It's all a matter of itinerary and cruise length ... and to a smaller extent ship.

But the fact remains that for what we pay on a HAL ship, we simply don't get a very different experience in terms of quality than we would on another cruise line of the same ilk. The reason for that is simple. For what we are paying for that "main stream" cruise ... say a seven-day Caribbean ... the cruise line can only afford to give us so much or else they would go broke. So, we pay for the same things on HAL that we would have to pay for on Carnival. Now maybe some of the more exotic, expensive itineraries could be slightly different. Now HAL has a much wider profit margin. They can afford to toss passengers a few bones to make them feel like they are getting a bit of an enhanced experience. For example, on my 30-day Hawaii/South Pacific cruise, HAL threw in free rum punch at Sailaway. No other sailing I've been on has provided Sailaway drinks for free. But then no other sailing I've been on has been as expensive as that Hawaii/South Pacific cruise ... so the added few enhancements are understandable.

Trust me, I'm not bashing HAL. Quite the contrary, HAL is my clear favorite cruise line. But it's not my favorite because it provides anything different that I can't get on other lines. It's my favorite because it meets more of my needs than any of those other lines ... and the environment onboard is simply a better fit for me than those other lines would likely provide.

But I still wouldn't consider HAL, as an overall cruise line, to be a "premium" line. It's a mass market line with certain itineraries that kick it up a notch ...

Blue skies ...

--rita

[RevNeal]

Not really trying per se. It's just inescapable. >shrug<

I am quite aware of that. HAL has been becoming, progressively over the years, less-and-less the kind of Line I want to cruise aboard. They still do an excellent job of providing me the kind of vacation I want, but I have to pick-and-choose a little more carefully the ship and the itinerary in order to minimize those aspects that I general dislike. Not that I disliked the Noordam, or even the Westerdam; quite the contrary, I loved both ships ... and the Noordam had more of that "HAL atmosphere" that, quite frankly, some of the other Vistas have less. I don't like the passenger capacity, but even still the ship didn't feel that much more crowded than does the S and Rs, although the Vista's cabins are (for the most part) a bit smaller. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the S and R ships ... and I suspect their eventual departure may end up taking me away from HAL, too. But, we'll see.

[jhannah]

Cabin Category? VA for this cruise. Rotterdam Deck (7) wake-view.

[RevNeal]

And that's exactly why I say only SOME ships/some itineraries even come close to premium ... specifically those exotic itineraries on the smaller ships.

The nomenclature argument is one that, I suppose, will never be settled. You used the term "premium" here. What lines do YOU class as "Premium?" Be careful NOT to include those that are "Luxury," for that is a different category. And that is my point. The market seems to have defined "Premium" as somthing other than "Luxury" ... something between "mainstream" mass-market and "Luxury." Another way to look at it is that they take some aspects of the Luxury Lines -- like somewhat smaller ships (at least for part of the fleet) and a greater number of exotic itineraries -- and provide them at a lower, more "reasonable" price (i.e., without the nosebleed luxuries). And, it's not just one website or a couple of travel resources that do this ... almost all of them do it. They might vary a bit in definitions, but they still seem to see differences. Why is your opinion better than those who make a business out of Travel reviews?

But if I book a b2b Caribbean on the Zuiderdam ... which I did in 2004 ... I honestly don't feel it's a "premium" experience at all. Oh, it's a different experience than it would be on Carnival or RCL ... but not necessarily a better one.

And THAT is the extreme on HAL. The Zuiderdam's Caribbean "milk runs" were NOT entirely indicitive of what one fined on the 8 S and R ships, or even on the other 3 Vistas. I've done Caribbean b2bs on the Westerdam ... it wasn't as nice or as refined as when I did it on the Nieuw Amsterdam and the Maasdam, but neither was it what had been described to me by several people who had been aboard the Zuiderdam. It was something in between.

But I still wouldn't consider HAL, as an overall cruise line, to be a "premium" line. It's a mass market line with certain itineraries that kick it up a notch ...

Again, terminology and opinion. You're defining Luxury down to Premium while collapsing those lines that are usually identified as Premium into the Mainstream. The industry seems to see a scale of gradations. It can sometimes be a very narrow gradation, granted, but they still see it. Do you remember Linda Coffman? She's got an excellent article here at Fodor's Travel Wire (http://www.fodors.com/wire/archives/001407.cfm) ... how would you differ with her definitons? How would you distribute the Lines? What's a Luxury Line? What's Premium Line? What's a "Mainstream" Line?

[RevNeal]

VA for this cruise. Rotterdam Deck (7) wake-view.

Same category, different deck. (You're somewhere above us).
Hmmm ... HAL priced my cabin at: $8,104.58 for two. I reserved my booking aboard the Noordam and finalized with pricing while aboard the Ryndam; since the fiasco of assignment of this cruise to a TA has me stuck in mid-transfer to the TA of my choice (said-annoyance being in the process of being solved ... and should have been solved already, except for legal wrangling between the TA which got it and HAL, which erroneously assigned it to them), all I have to work with is the original HAL quote. Perhaps, when my new TA finally receives this booking, I'll find out that I'm getting a better rate? I sure hope so. I've found VAs quoted by online discounters for $7,116.60 for two ($3,558.30 per person). That would make the per-day cost $355.83, rather than $405.20.

The second cruise (July 15th) I'm in an inside cabin for SIGNIFICANTLY less ... even though I'm paying single supplement for that one.

[RevNeal]

The Zuiderdam's Caribbean "milk runs" were NOT entirely indicitive of what one fined on the 8 S and R ships, or even on the other 3 Vistas.

Grumble ... grumble. How the heck did that happen? "would find" Sometimes I need to slow down and re-read in the Preview before I post. :)

[kryos]

The nomenclature argument is one that, I suppose, will never be settled. You used the term "premium" here. What lines do YOU class as "Premium?"
I guess I would personally define premium as a line that offers some extra bennies ... like maybe free soft drinks or bottled water, limited free alcohol (as perhaps in a bar set up in the cabin upon embarkation) and maybe a smaller ship/less passengers, more personal service. I think premium lines would be Azamara and perhaps Windstar ... HAL for certain ships/itineraries; i.e., some of Prisendam's more exotic voyages.

Luxury I would define as all-inclusive for the most part ... free alcohol, or at least wine with dinners ... perhaps an included shore excursion or two ... maybe a water sports platform ... that sort of thing. Also, the luxury lines are way beyond the price point of any other line ... which classes it far beyond the rest (i.e., anyone shopping for cruises would know that these lines are clearly in a class by themselves and must include a lot more in the price of the cruise). In short, if you are booking a 7 day cruise and one line will cost you $1,500 for that outside cabin, while the other wants $3,500 ... it is clear that there is a major difference between the two lines ... hence, the more expensive one would have to include a lot more and thus be luxury. However, if you look at price points between a Carnival and a HAL ... the price point won't be too much different, indicating that both lines pretty much include the same ammenities.

That's the way I break them down anyway.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

how would you differ with her definitons? How would you distribute the Lines? What's a Luxury Line? What's Premium Line? What's a "Mainstream" Line?

Mainstream = Any line that caters to families and keeps their price points family friendly. They have large ships, lots of ammenities, well thought out children's programs and kid friendly dining rooms with children's menus and the like. I would class these as RCL, NCL, Carnival, etc. Interestingly enough, I don't think I would class Disney in this category since their ships/ammenities are a bit more upscale than what would be found on a mass market line. They also do interesting things with their cruises ... like pair them with Disney World stays, etc. A cruise on a Disney ship would appear to be more of a "class production" than just a cruise.

Premium = As I said before, smaller ships, more personal attention, perhaps limited elements of the luxury experience; i.e., perhaps a free initial bar set-up in the room, maybe no charge specialty restaurants, etc. But definitely not all-inclusive. You will pay for shore excursions and liquor, usually even water and soft drinks too. You will sign chits just like on the mass market lines for just about everything you buy. Premium lines I would class as maybe Disney, Azamara, Windstar and some HAL ships ... but definitely not all HAL ships.

Luxury = There is no blurring of the distinctions here. The luxury lines are in a class by themselves. You won't be confused when looking at them. They will be far more all-inclusive in that probably the only things onboard you will pay for are items of a personal nature ... gambling, purchases from stores, spa services, etc. The price will be considerably higher and the ships will generally be very intimate. Accommodations too will generally be of a higher calibre. In fact, they may be entirely suites. I would list among these categories cruise lines such as Regent, Crystal and Seaborne.

These are the ways I use to judge cruises and cruise ships. It's not perfect, but I believe it is more accurate than what the cruise lines use to judge themselves. HAL would like you to believe they are a premium line, but when you get right down to it, many of their ships have very little to distinguish them from the offerings of any other major mass market line, including Carnival and RCL. Sure the onboard atmosphere is different, but that's because HAL is a different cruise line than Carnival or RCL. The onboard atmosphere is different onboard NCL too ... and that's because NCL has differentiated themselves as being a very non-traditional line ... not better, just different than all the others. Maybe my way of classifying cruise lines into catgories isn't the most accurate, but it works for me. Holland America, at least in my estimation, is not a premium line ... at least not across a goodly portion of their fleet. In fact, as the years progress, they may retain very little of that distinction.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bicker]

And thereby become more and more the kind of cruise line that many of us want to cruise on.

[RevNeal]

Thanks, Rita. You seem to have HAL straddling the divide between Premium and Mainstream. I tend to agree, particularly on those itineraries and ships that were intended for that purpose. As for how much of the fleet this is true for ... well ... for 9 ships it is not true -- The Ss, the Rs, and the Prinsendam. For the Vistas and the coming Signatures, they may well seem to lend themselves more to the upper-end of Mainstream if not a bit further down. In the end it all depends upon opinion and experience.

As for the price divisions ... again, if you look at the price ranges that I quoted above from another source they do reflect a great degree of overlap (as they define it) between Mainstream and Premium. That overlap appears to be built into the market. That's why I say that some lines -- like HAL -- have taken aspects of the "Luxury" experience: mid-size and smaller ships with higher crew-to-passenger ratios, slightly larger cabins, more exotic and longer itineraries -- and supplied them to a part of the market at a much more "reasonable" price-point that enables the rest of us to afford them. That distinguishes ("lifts") Lines like HAL above the "mainstream fray." Hence, on those cruises/ships that were such features are not offered, of course they're going to appear to be more "mainstream."

I've just noticed that we've been re-hashing an excellent and informative thread from back in May ... around my Dad's deathday, which is why I don't remember it very well.

HERE (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=552019&highlight=spent+food+passenger)

You posted on it pretty much as you've posted here. I tend to agree with some of what you said there, and here, but I also believe that the Premium character is not just a matter of price and what is offered for that price.

Somewhere, on some thread, I vaguely remember somebody posting a citation for how much the Lines spend on food, per-person, for their passengers. I can't find it.

[hammybee]

However, if you look at price points between a Carnival and a HAL ... the price point won't be too much different, indicating that both lines pretty much include the same ammenities.
--rita

There are pricing overlaps at both ends. The more affordable cruise lines tend to charge higher percentage single suppliments than the more costly cruise lines. With some careful shopping, it is possible for a solo cruiser to sail the higher end at almost a break even point, when and if tips and alcohol ( assuming this is of interest) are included.

Here is a quick run down:

Siver Seas- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

Sea Dream- Open Seating-Casual Dress- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

SEABORN- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

Regent- Open Seating- One Formal Evening on some sails- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

Crystal- Fixed/Assigned Seating-Some formal Evenings- Tips/Alcohol Not Included- Soda and Water Included.

Not so obvious factors to consider:

One of these cruise lines charges a $100 per person suppliment for early boarding ( before 2:30-3:00 P.M.).

One of these cruise lines has a Crew Fund whereby a passenger can voluntarily tip more.

One of these cruise lines has been known to allow jeans in the dining room, as evidenced by the owner's onboard attire

At least two of these cruise lines offer seasonal kids promos.

All of these cruise lines covet groups and charter business.

All of these cruise lines most often sail from non U.S. ports.

[RevNeal]

There are pricing overlaps at both ends. The more affordable cruise lines tend to charge higher percentage single suppliments than the more costly cruise lines. With some careful shopping, it is possible for a solo cruiser to sail the higher end at almost a break even point, when and if tips and alcohol ( assuming this is of interest) are included.

Most interesting. HAL charges one of the lowest single-supplements in the industry (at least for the Mainstream/Premium Lines). I wonder if that correlates any?

Here is a quick run down:

Siver Seas- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

Sea Dream- Open Seating-Casual Dress- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

SEABORN- Open Seating- Some Formal Evenings- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

Regent- Open Seating- One Formal Evening on some sails- Tips Included- Alcohol Included

Crystal- Fixed/Assigned Seating-Some formal Evenings- Tips/Alcohol Not Included- Soda and Water Included.

Not so obvious factors to consider:

One of these cruise lines charges a $100 per person suppliment for early boarding ( before 2:30-3:00 P.M.).

One of these cruise lines has a Crew Fund whereby a passenger can voluntarily tip more.

One of these cruise lines has been known to allow jeans in the dining room, as evidenced by the owner's onboard attire

At least two of these cruise lines offer seasonal kids promos.

All of these cruise lines covet groups and charter business.

All of these cruise lines most often sail from non U.S. ports.

Thanks ... Of the Luxury Lines, I've been examining Regent and Seabourn for cruses with Christopher. I've not given any thought to a Luxury Line for a solo cruise, but if the Single Supplement is low enough, it might be worth it to examine the options. Being solo, the important thing to note is that the only one with assigned seating is Crystal. But, they are also the only one that doesn't include tips OR booze.