Tipping - News article - Will Hal eventually do this?

[gizmo]

I found this article about NCL interesting.

MIAMI -- Norwegian Cruise Line's $10 per-person daily service charge will become nonrefundable fleetwide by next summer.


It's already nonrefundable on the U.S.-flag ships in Hawaii but optional elsewhere. NCL said 5% of passengers elect to remove the charge from their bill.

Passengers are not required to tip beyond the $10 daily charge.

Will Hal eventually do this?

[MandyGirl]

I've often wondered why cruiselines don't just go ahead and include the recommended tips in the base cruise price when booking, then advertise it as "tips included". Aren't there a couple of cruiselines already that include tips in the base cruise price? (Such as Radisson Seven Seas (http://www.rssc.com/questions/home.jsp?id=Tipping&detail=Y&include=onboard&tab=2) "
TippingGratuities are not expected on board; they are included in your cruise fare.


"

Last year - our first HAL cruise - hubby and I were seated at a table for 6. None of the other passengers at our table gave a single dime as gratuity - they loved the 'tipping not required' policy - yet hubby and I budget a minimum of the expected tipping and give phonecards or other gifts for 'above and beyond expectations'. Hopefully with the new 'convenience' of $10/day pp automatically charged, that helps those types of passengers. Our first cruise was NCL Freestyle cruising in 2000, and we could understand the automatic gratuity since we didn't have the same servers/assistants in the dining rooms on a nightly basis.

[Krazy Kruizers]

:)

I certainly hope not - but then?? Hal seems to be reading what the other cruise lines are doing and following into their footsteps.

Guess we will have to be following what Carnival does since they seem to be the trend setters.

5% is not that many people opting out - no reason to change the rules.

:)

[Joanne G.]

not required to tip Hmm, that sounds a lot like "tipping not required." :( Just as HAL has eliminated a confusing, frequently mis-understood policy, NCL has implemented a confusing, frequently mis-understood policy.

Have no idea if HAL will do this, but if they do, I'm sure it will cause as much uproar as it has with those on the NCL board. No one is sure, despite various clumsy explanations from NCL, what exactly it covers, whether or not it's for tips, and if passengers are still expected to hand out cash tips.

Personally, if I sail on NCL under this policy, I'll take it as a simply replacement of the adjustable $10 per day that was for tips. I never adjusted that anyway, so the change doesn't mean much to me. Other than for some unusual service, I'll figure my tips are taken care of by this charge. There's a point where I just have to stop worrying about how the crew gets compensated.

[mattR]

I've found that we have recieved better service one cruise lines that use envelops then on lines that use ship board account tipping. Anyone else find this to be true?

[Joanne G.]

I haven't encountered any difference in service that can be attributed to whether tips are handed out in envelopes or charged directly to my account. I've had average service and great service under both methods. (Never had what I could call bad service.)

[Lithium]

Having cruised on NCL recently, I hate this. It takes away all incentive for great service. And we did not receive great service on our NCL cruise. Either way, everyone gets tipped whether they are nice or not. It then turns into a hotel like atmosphere. I am very disappointed to see cruise lines go this route.

[lddam]

Having cruised on NCL recently, I hate this. It takes away all incentive for great service. And we did not receive great service on our NCL cruise. Either way, everyone gets tipped whether they are nice or not. It then turns into a hotel like atmosphere. I am very disappointed to see cruise lines go this route.

I have to agree with Lithium. Human nature being what it is, I think we will see service on lines adopting this "service charge protocol" sink to the lowest common denominator. Why would someone consistently extend themselves to provide a high level of service when they see the "slackard" doing little and still receiving a "guaranteed" gratuity?

I saw the tip of the iceberg on our recent 14-day Noordam cruise when we had a problem with the vacuum system in our cabin. When I reported it to my cabin steward, he was unconcerned and told me to "Report it to engineering." First time in 14 cruises that I was treated with so little deference. Additionally, he was reticent to replace the bottled water in our cabin after asking him to do so 3 or 4 times. It was only after a complaint to housekeeping that he became more diligent in his efforts.

Our tablemates who were experienced HAL cruisers made comment that they didn't see as many smiles amongst the servers as on previous cruises and that many seemed to exude a "less than enthusiastic" attitude. Since this was our first experience with HAL, we had no frame of reference with which to compare, but they commented more than a couple of times that we should not judge HAL based upon this one experience. I also found it unusual to see tables on the Lido deck remain cluttered and dirty for what I considered to be a prolonged time after being vacated by diners. Staff cuts or staff morale to blame?...Who's to say?

Bottom line is that if few voice their displeasure, then the lines will interpret the silence as overwhelming approval of the new system. As for us, we made note on the cruise survey that we give the new system a "thumbs down."

[RevNeal]

I've often wondered why cruiselines don't just go ahead and include the recommended tips in the base cruise price when booking, then advertise it as "tips included". Aren't there a couple of cruiselines already that include tips in the base cruise price? (Such as Radisson Seven Seas "
TippingGratuities are not expected on board; they are included in your cruise fare.

I would rather HAL include tips in the up-front cruise cost. It would give them a wonderful way of marketing their cruises and make things easier for passengers. They've almost done that already by establishing the gratuity charge, so why don't they just go all the way, up the amount, add it to the quoted cruise fare, and then then state: "Tips are included."

[Ellya]

Personally, I think all cruise lines should include tips in their pricing since it is misleading to advertise one price and then, in effect, charge 10% more after tips are added (given that many cruises are now available for about $100 per day per person). It would be difficult for any one cruise line to do so, however, in that their prices would look 10% higher at first glance.

[Navy_Chief]

At first look when I was thinking HAL and saw the "No Tip" thing, I thought perhaps they did put it into the initial price. But then it changed to $10 pppd. So much for that theory. But after considering the cost of the cruise itself and the legnth of time on board and so on, it realy isn't any big deal and I'm fine with paying it. But I agree, tip in the original price is a good idea.

One more thing, If you think your getting crappy service from a crew member, then take it up with their boss. Just don't stew on it and let it interfere with your vacation.

[jazzsea]

I doubt it. Holland America has had to make so many changes in the last few years just to keep their pricing competitive in the Caribbean and Alaska markets. I can't see them adding gratuities with options as they have just done and then making them mandatory a few months later. If anything, Holland America Line will be the very last of the cruise lines to force gratuities on passengers. It just isn't their style.

[gizmo]

I would rather HAL include tips in the up-front cruise cost. It would give them a wonderful way of marketing their cruises and make things easier for passengers. They've almost done that already by establishing the gratuity charge, so why don't they just go all the way, up the amount, add it to the quoted cruise fare, and then then state: "Tips are included."
100% agreement on this. It would be a wonderful marketing tool. It would eliminate all the confusion, and people would know up front that the "Tips are included". The marketing people could easily come up with a big advertising campaign.

[iluvcruzin]

The service charge NCL is placing on their ships (as mentioned already in place on the Hawaii cruise) is not for a replacement of tips. It is something that can not be removed from a passengers account which differs from automatic tipping.

I've read lots of posts and articles on this subject. It would not be something cruisers would take to lightly. Hopefully NCL will rethink their policy and include it in the price of the cruise versus "service charging" their clientel.

[gizmo]

Now I am really confused!!! :confused:

[jhannah]

The whole "tip" thing has really morphed over the years. Originally, "TIP" stood for "to insure promptness." For that to be the case, to insure that you were attended to in a timely manner, the money had to be palmed up front. In time, this practice fell out of favor (smacked too much of patronage) and was replaced by a gratuity, given after the service was rendered ... if such service was exemplary. At that point, there was technically no longer such thing as a "tip," even though that's the term we still use.

Service workers then began to see a cause-and-effect scenario develop, and began performing their jobs in such a way as to cash in on the customers' generosity when provided with outstanding service. As more time passed, business saw their service personnel making handsome sums of money (those who really did their jobs well) and saw the opportunity to save themselves some money by reducing gross pay and letting the customer provide the rest. This became the "pay for performance" model that is still with us. Gratuities, as more time elapsed, became a routine and expected element of the service industry. Expected because such tokes are an integral part of overall compensation. The wage paid directly by the employer is not sufficient in and of itself for economic survival.

The pay for performance model is valid and has definite merits. It forces me to be responsible in the long run for my economic security. If I make the grade, I'll do okay. If I sub-perform, I will suffer economically. So what's the rub? The main thing I see is that we, as a society, have become so cost conscious (many times for good reason) that we abhor having to pay a nickle more for anything than we absolutely have to. To some people, stiffing a server is an easy way to avoid spending more than necessary for the service they were rendered. "They're getting paid to do their job. I don't get extra for doing my job, why should they?" This leads in many cases to extreme hardship for those who provide the service ... even when they've done a great job. Look how much turnover there is in service industry jobs. Those folks, more and more, are having to seek other career paths because they cannot survive. Those who are unable to find other employment are simply stuck where they are. Kind of hard to get many smiles out of them at that point.

So where are we today? Still in the mode where gratuities are an integral part of overall compensation. We are expected to participate unless there are extreme reasons not to. Could the cruise lines all just charge us more to adequately compensate their crew? Sure. But as noted above, this would raise the cruise price and many passengers would balk because they would see no tangible benefit to paying more per person for their vacation. That's wny they stick with the gratuity model ... to keep the base fare down. Never mind that we pay the increase anyway via the $10 service charge. Some how that doesn't seem the same as paying the extra up front for the ticket (although it is exactly the same.) The only thing it accomplishes is that it still allows some to stiff their servers by removing the charge from their stateroom account. Making the extra charge non-refundable takes care of this to some degree. But I would venture a guess that $10 is not enough to adequately compensate those who work so hard on our behalf when we cruise.

We're now left with an either/or situation. We either accept a major price increase to adequately compensate the service staff (thereby reducing turnover except in the case of those who simply can't get with the program) and thereby alienate many passengers ... or stay with the current state of affairs that has proven to not be optimal in either compensation or service. Pick your poison.

No easy answer here. The cruise lines will keep experimenting, IMO, to find something that seems to work. No matter what, however, it will be impossible for everyone to be happy with any path they choose.

[saltydog28]

jhannah...I don't think the base fare would be that much more if the gratuities were included. If I'm paying..for a 7day cruise..say..

$1000..for cruise
$250 ..for tax and port charges
$119 ..for travel insurance
$15 ...for service fee from ta
$70 ...service charge...7 days @$10 a day

What I don't want to see on the next to last night is a summery of on board charges, such as...

$125..bar tab
$20 ..photos
$300..shore excursions
$70 ..gratuities...handed out however we see fit.

It really irks me to be told I 'have' to tip these 'poor hard working people'.
Raise the price of the cruise to have the gratuity included in the base fare and pay the crew what they are worth.
Compared to what you are already spending, it's only a few dollars.

Pat.

[hdawson]

I prefer tipping the tradional way. It has resulted in truely outstanding service on all 14 cruises.. Incentive works.
BTW. NCL has stated that the $10 per day pp should not be considered a
tip. It goes into their revenue stream. They also have said if your server gives service deserving of a tip, then it should be considered. They further state that the staff is salaried.

[lknick]

Jim, a well thought through explenation.

It'd be nice if transportation charges were one number, but the industry has adopted the piecemeal charge pattern.

The old British currency measure of a bob came from piecemeal pricing. A bob is a pound and a shilling...a pound for the item and a shilling (5%) for the salesman.

[jhannah]

Saltydog, I agree to a point. When you're talking cruise fares, the service charge of $10 PP/PD wouldn't be that big a deal. But remember that the $10 is now split more ways. Sure, they're probably getting about the same in the long run since theoretically fewer are stiffing. However, to provide a meaningful wage where it could be said that tipping is not practiced would take far more than an additional $10 PP/PD.

[mattR]

Saltydog28- If you book inside cabins it can be a large %. My next cruise including tax and port was $540. So a $10 tip/pp/pd dose add 13% to my cost. I have no problem with the recomended tip, just wanted to state that tipping can be a signifigant %. I agree with you that it is nice to have control of where the tips goes based on the service you recieve.

[Southbound]

The definitions of "gratuity" and "service charge" are not interchangeable, IMHO. A "gratuity" is given voluntarily and without obligation, and I agree that these hard-working employees deserve to be rewarded for the exceptional service provided. However, the decision of how much and to whom should be made by the recipient of those services. If a person chooses to have dinner in the main dining room every evening, he/she should not be obligated to tip (via the $10pp/pd policy) for non-service in the Pinnacle. The same holds true for other optional services, i.e., laundry, room service, etc. We have always tipped generously and will continue to do so, but it will be done as a gratuity and not a service charge.

[elmorejj]

lknick. sorry to contradict but a "bob" is not another name for a pound and a shilling. That name is a Guinea.....21 shillings. Bob is a slang name for a shilling just like "tanner" is a slang name for 6 pence......jean (from Britain)

[Navy_Chief]

How about we make the cruise lines give us a written promise that the money goes to the assigned waiters and room attendents assigned to that passenger devided equily among them:D

[Lisa63]

I wouldn't be surprised if other lines follow in order to attract more employees.

My only questions about the new NCL policy are as follows:
Where is the service charge going? If it's used to pay salaries and benefits of the crew, I have no problem with it.
Does this mean that NCL will pay a fairer wage to crew of their non-US-flagged ships? If so, that's more reason to sail NCL in the future, IMO.
How and when will it be determined if $10 per pax per day is sufficient? In other words, are mandatory increases in the future? And how would they be applied? Is it based on the rate in effect at time of booking or at the time of sailing? Tough one -- time of booking would be more fair to the customer, but not to the employee.

As long as the mandatory fee is disclosed at time of booking -- as port charges are -- I honestly don't see the big deal, as we all spend at least $140 per couple in tips on a 7-night cruise anyway.

This won't keep me from sailing NCL, or any other line for that matter. Compensating the stewards is a part of cruising, and one I do without question, whether it's through automatic deduction, cash in person, or a combination of the two, when appropriate.

[lknick]

lknick. sorry to contradict but a "bob" is not another name for a pound and a shilling. That name is a Guinea.....21 shillings. Bob is a slang name for a shilling just like "tanner" is a slang name for 6 pence......jean (from Britain)You're right. Been some time since decimalization. Chalk it up to CRS.

And how does this change my point?

Lew who spends the summer in SW6 2AP [Fulham to you]. When was the last time you lived in the UK.

[Thoth]

[color=darkorchid]I've often wondered why cruiselines don't just go ahead and include the recommended tips in the base cruise price when booking, then advertise it as "tips included".



I just returned from the O-dam and agree that it would be nice to just charge $70 more for the cruise and say NO TIPPING.
This current policy seems a bit silly if you ask me. My service was so professional that I tipped in addition to the automatic charges and my waiter seemed afraid he might get into trouble.

[elmorejj]

lknick, we were stationed there from `66-`70, that was the last time I lived there permanently, but I go home every year for a month. Decimalization came into being just as we were leaving. When I visit, I still have problems with the money, and find myself converting back to L.S.D, and then into dollars!!!.....jean :eek:

[grandma bev]

Am I the only one who "reads the fine print"?
On Holland America's own website, they posted a notice concerning the new tipping policy - $10 per day per person. However, they state that you may "adjust" the amount.

Read the fine print, folks.

Bev

P.S. I, too, prefer to tip the traditional way

Ryndam upcoming Christmas Cruise. ho Ho Ho!

[Kami's pal]

Am I the only one who "reads the fine print"?
On Holland America's own website, they posted a notice concerning the new tipping policy - $10 per day per person. However, they state that you may "adjust" the amount.

Read the fine print, folks.

Bev

P.S. I, too, prefer to tip the traditional way

Ryndam upcoming Christmas Cruise. ho Ho Ho!



Here is the 'fine print" not on the website but quoted directly from HAL's own leaflet titled "you need to know" which I received before my May 19, 2004 sailing on Noordam. "Good service starts with crew members you may never .... meet such as our highly trained kitchen staff. They also benefit from the gratuities included with your bill. To ensure the efforts of these crew members are also recognized and to discourage solicitation of guests, dining and cabin stewards are required to turn in any tips they receive directly from those guests who have removed or reduced the gratuities on their onboard accounts."

So all passengers are forced to participate in this pooling of salaries. We can not recognize extra service unless we first contribute to the $10.00 pppd charge. This became a very contentious and vexing issue on my cruise. It was my first with HAL (and my last) but at my dinner table of 8 were couples with 20+ cruises with HAL. They too were outraged. When has anyone ever felt it necessary to "ensure the efforts of ..' cooks, dishwashers, night cleaning staff in lounges' as was explained by announcement on board ship. After much demand ship wide we were informed that these "behind the scenes staff" received 30%, waiters 40% and cabin staff 30%.
I belive that the efforts of cooks etc. are supposed to be ensured by proper wages paid by the employer after performance reviews. IMO this new policy is a sneaky way for HAL to increase wages of some by reducing revenues of others. And, because the amounts charged to onboard accounts are "gratuities" HAL does not have to declare revenue, hence lower taxes.
Lower tips revenue to wait staff and cabin staff is a serious matter. These people receive token 'wages' plus room and board and medical care while on board ship. Their main salary is gratuities. The only reason they cruise is that conditions in their homes are worse! I refuse to cooperate with exploitation of a vulnerable people.

And they probably were afraid of taking any extra tips. This policy is guaranteed to cause problems among crew. If one is seen to accept tips given directly by guests and not turn them in, what will happen? How is this policy enforced? How does management know if that crew member's table or cabin passengers have 'removed or reduced"

[elmorejj]

With HAL now charging $2000 for airfare for its crew,I am sure sharing the tips with the behind the scenes crew is helping the crew pay for its airfare, thus, we are paying the wages of the crew not just giving them a little extra.....jean

[Opinions]

The employees, through their union have agreed to this new plan...It was obvious there were problems with "Tipping not Required"...I am willing to let them decide what is best for them...It seems to work on other cruise lines.

[lknick]

So all passengers are forced to participate in this pooling of tips. IMO this new policy is a sneaky way for HAL to increase wages of some by reducing revenues of others. I refuse to cooperate with exploitation of a vulnerable people.

And they probably were afraid of taking any extra tips. This policy is guaranteed to cause problems among crew.I absolutely love your wording.

[jhannah]

The employees, through their union have agreed to this new plan...It was obvious there were problems with "Tipping not Required"...I am willing to let them decide what is best for them...It seems to work on other cruise lines.This is a very important point that tends to be overlooked. While there are dissidents in any group, if the overall employee base and their representatives have agreed to this arrangement, so be it. Let's give it a chance to work.

[lknick]

Jim--that's about the size of it...although some want to believe otherwise. And there is not a thing we can do to change it.

[saltydog28]

Opinions- I did not know that the crew was union or that they had a say in the new plan.
- The things you learn on the boards!

Pat.