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divinggirl
August 4th, 2004, 11:36 AM
This was in the Baltimore Sun today, 8/4...I've pasted the article b/c that site requires registration and I know everyone hates to have to do that...but here's the link anyway ifyou want to see it

Carnival Story (http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.bz.cruise04aug04,1,7973671.story?coll=bal-home-headlines)




By Paul Adams
Sun Staff
Originally published August 4, 2004
After months of rehabilitation from injuries suffered in a racing accident at Pimlico Race Course in May, veteran jockey Rick Wilson and his family were looking forward to a seven-day cruise on Carnival Cruise Lines' recently minted ship, Miracle.

It was to be the family's big vacation after an awful spring and summer spent in hospitals.

But yesterday, the family members found out they are among a large number of would-be vacationers who have seen their plans disrupted in recent weeks because of overbooking on Carnival cruises from Baltimore.

Travel agents said they fear the cancellations are souring passengers and endangering Baltimore's booming cruise business.

Though they couldn't disclose exact figures, Carnival officials said yesterday that hundreds of passengers who had hoped to sail on one of the line's eight cruises from Baltimore this summer have been "bumped" because of overbooking.

"After what we've been through this year, we were really, really looking forward to it," said Jean Wilson, Rick's wife. The family was part of a group of 57 people -- about half of them horse racing enthusiasts -- bumped from the cruise.

"This was going to be our good vacation at a time when it's well needed," Wilson said.

Several Baltimore-area travel agents said their customers have been among those disappointed by Carnival as the city's years-long efforts to attract more cruise ships is finally bearing fruit.

Port of Baltimore officials said they anticipate handling 240,000 cruise passengers this year, more than double the 115,813 last year and far more than the 5,103 it saw in 1999, before cruise lines started to give Baltimore a second look. Several lines began sailing directly from Baltimore after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to attract passengers who were reluctant to fly.

Committed customers

The problem, a Carnival spokeswoman said, is that the cruise line hasn't been getting nearly as many cancellations in Baltimore as it does at its other ports.

Cruise patrons in the mid-Atlantic, it turns out, are more committed than the average passenger. As a result, the complex computer algorithms that Carnival employs to figure out how many passengers are likely to back out failed to anticipate the region's pent-up passion for cruising. Similar systems are used by airlines to predict passenger behavior.

"We have a formula, if you will, that is pretty reliable in terms of estimating the amount of attrition that we're going to have," said Jennifer de la Cruz, a spokeswoman for Carnival. "But we didn't have nearly the attrition [in Baltimore] that we normally see."

The problem is remarkable given that Carnival, which transports nearly 2 million passengers a year, is a new entrant in the Baltimore market. Often, cruise lines find it takes a few years before vacationers warm up to a new service, which leads to light bookings in the beginning. Not so in Baltimore.

"They didn't realize the strength of the Baltimore market, I guess," said Patty Sroka, a travel agent who booked the Wilsons and dozens of others on the Sept. 26 cruise out of Baltimore. She said several groups, including hers, were bumped from the sailing.

"Since 9/11, people don't want to fly, and if there's something local and they can avoid flying, they would prefer to do that," she said.

Sroka, who operates a small travel agency out of her Woodbine home, booked the cruises almost a year ago on behalf of her uncle, John Divver, who organizes a large trip every few years for a growing number of family members and friends. Divver, owner of B&B Auto Sales in Gaithersburg, raises horses on the side and is well connected in the racing world. Many group members, who have vacationed together for years, are horse trainers, jockeys and owners.

"It's ludicrous," Divver said. "It basically ruined these people's vacation."

The situation poses particular problems for the horse trainers, who must arrange months in advance for others to care for their animals while they are away on vacation.

"For trainers to be gone a week is big time," Divver said.

Carnival offered to send the group on an alternative cruise out of New York with more luxurious accommodations and some spending money thrown in.

But the new dates are unworkable, and the group was set on cruising out of Baltimore. The cruise line will refund the group's money and offer incentives on future cruises, but it's little consolation for the disappointed members.

"I think Carnival is out of our vocabulary now," said Shirleyan Benham, a retired Salisbury nursing instructor who, along with her husband, planned to join the group. "People have lost a lot of money and time."

Agents frustrated

Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, Norwegian Cruise Lines and Holland America also sail out of Baltimore.

A spokeswoman for Royal Caribbean, which began extensive service in Baltimore this year, said the cruise line has not had to involuntarily bump passengers from its voyages.

But travel agents, who report strong interest in Baltimore cruises, are frustrated and worried that the problem could

spread.

"We're drawing folks from as far away as Indiana," said Barbara Cooper, a travel agent with Bennett World Travel in Ellicott City, which books cruises. "It's disconcerting because you don't want to not sell the local cruises, but then again you're afraid to book anything because you're afraid they're going to get bumped."

That's what happened to Cooper's colleague, Florine Smith, who had booked a group of 27 for a Carnival cruise that departed on Mother's Day. Most had paid in full and booked almost a year in advance, but Carnival told them they would have to reschedule for a different date. Only nine members did so. The rest got a refund.

"Many of them became disillusioned," Smith said.

De la Cruz stressed that it is rare for passengers to get bumped. But when it happens, the cruise line tries to inform passengers quickly in hope of finding them alternative accommodations.

"It doesn't necessarily make people feel better ... but if we are in an oversold situation, it's going to be noted a few months prior [to departure]," she said.

localady
August 4th, 2004, 11:42 AM
Egads!!!! Now they are pulling the Airlines trick of overbooking every flight based on statistical methods. I really don't think that it should be legal to book more seats, or cabins, than the Provider (be it airline, cruiseline or hotel) has available.:eek:

I was told my United Airlines personnel that it's essential to overbook in making a profit......I disagree totally!

jazzsea
August 4th, 2004, 11:45 AM
I stopped booking Carnival because of this situation. Carnival does not assign cabin numbers in advance for group bookings. Too chancy for me and I couldn't sit back and watch my clients dissappointed. I feel really badly for these people. I'm surprised that Holland America didn't step in and capture some of that lost business. Maybe their ship was sold out, as well.

Krazy Kruizers
August 4th, 2004, 12:13 PM
:)

I don't think HAL could step in in this situation. The only ship in that area the end of September is the Maasdam and she is doing Canada/New England.

:)

sail7seas
August 4th, 2004, 12:32 PM
I think KK is correct....I don't think there is any ship except for Maasdam in the region.

All other ships are in Alaska, Europe, West Coast and Zuiderdam from FLL.

Roz
August 4th, 2004, 12:34 PM
I wish HAL would start sailing from Baltimore. It's served by Southwest Airlines and we have several non-stops per day at great prices. Southwest is luring people away from Dulles and Reagan airports.

Roz

taszmom
August 4th, 2004, 01:05 PM
I stopped booking Carnival because of this situation. Carnival does not assign cabin numbers in advance for group bookings. Too chancy for me and I couldn't sit back and watch my clients dissappointed. I feel really badly for these people. I'm surprised that Holland America didn't step in and capture some of that lost business. Maybe their ship was sold out, as well.


Just an FYI...you can book a stateroom assignment with a CCL Group. It requires making the full deposit. CCL started requiring full deposits on triples & quads in order to do stateroom assignments. Guess they were running into problems of finding those staterooms 60 days prior.

divinggirl
August 4th, 2004, 01:29 PM
To my knowledge, HAL does not sail out of Baltimore now, despite what the article says...I certainly would have elected to sail from my home port...Also, with all the fantastic deals to this region with the introduction of Independance Air just beginning, Southwest having a hub at BWI, and Air Tran offering great deals to fly here as well, you'd think all the cruise lines would jump on our port!!

Well, maybe now that they see the market is enormous, they'll begin to add sailings...I think it would also be a great port to add before and after sailing excursions to DC and the like, although traffic between the two cities is a nightmare, to put it mildly...



Nikki

Nasmas
August 4th, 2004, 01:30 PM
Egads!!!! Now they are pulling the Airlines trick of overbooking every flight based on statistical methods. I really don't think that it should be legal to book more seats, or cabins, than the Provider (be it airline, cruiseline or hotel) has available.:eek:

I was told my United Airlines personnel that it's essential to overbook in making a profit......I disagree totally!
I disagree too. Last year after a cruise, we got bumped by Delta in Atlanta. The reason the flight was booked was there was an earlier one cancelled, so we were told and since we had "cruise tickets" which weren't worth much after we bought them, we were the first to get the boot. I think it should be illegal, too for them to sell something they know they dont' have. Of course, to them its no big deal if the passengers are put out. No wonder they're all bordering on bankruptcy. If the cruise lines follow their lead, we may soon see more of them bankrupt. People will put up with a lot but, don't mess with thier vacation.

jhannah
August 4th, 2004, 01:39 PM
This is a real conundrum for any common carrier. They want to have a full vessel. And they want it as full of non-heavily-discounted fares as possible. It's simple economics. And plenty of credible historic data is available to demonstrate that a certain number of pax cancel their bookings for one reason or another ... some at the last minute or at least late in the game. If bookings are halted once every berth is filled, then they know that some berths will be vacated when it's too late to get them resold. Yes, sometimes this happens. But it must be minimized. Getting bumped is a real bummer ... especially in the noted circumstance of having a group. But it's simply the way business is done, and must be done, to remain profitable enough to stay in business. Most of the time it works out. When it doesn't, it can be devastating.

gizmo
August 4th, 2004, 01:39 PM
To my knowledge, HAL does not sail out of Baltimore now, despite what the article says...
Nikki
Hal did have a couple of cruises out of Balitmore this past Spring. I disembarked in Baltimore in April.

divinggirl
August 4th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Just disembarked? Actually, is that a Southern Caribbean sailing that begins in San Juan and ends up here?

I just looked it up, and there was ONE sailing in April...a test, maybe? Let's hope it was a packed ship!!! :D

MandyGirl
August 4th, 2004, 02:13 PM
Waiting a couple extra hours and enjoying the compensation (and/or first-class uprgrade) provided by the airline is no big deal for me (since I book my flights with "buffer time" for weather delays, etc since 'm not good at predicting weather months in advance) but I do think I would be bothered showing up for a cruise and it being overbooked. That's an entire week (or more), and 99% of the time I would not be able to wait for the next cruise the following week like I can wait a couple hours for the next airplane. Airlines don't overbook all flights - they know when they can expect everyone to show up (such as the Sunday after Thanksgiving!!). It's been nice to have future flights paid for by just sitting in the airport a couple extra hours.

Orcrone
August 4th, 2004, 02:20 PM
The airlines overbook because of business travelers who book unrestricted full fare tickets. They know a certain percentage will reschedule due to meetings running late, ending early, requiring an extra day, etc. However, that's not the case with most vacation travelers, the ones who book advance purchase, penalty laden tickets.

Cruise lines require final payment 75 - 90 days prior to the cruise. After that people can only cancel with penalties. Seems to me that most travelers will cancel prior to that timeframe. The small percentage that cancel within the penalty stage could probably be replaced, albeit at a discounted fare, by last minute travelers.

So why is there a need to overbook a cruise ship by hundreds of PAX?

gizmo
August 4th, 2004, 03:04 PM
Just disembarked? Actually, is that a Southern Caribbean sailing that begins in San Juan and ends up here?

I just looked it up, and there was ONE sailing in April...a test, maybe? Let's hope it was a packed ship!!! :D
Yes I disembarked. We boarded in Ft. Lauderdale, and did the Panama Canal then disembarked in Baltimore. Most pax got off in Ft. Lauderdale, I think there were only about 125 pax that stayed the extra 3 days to Baltimore.

Sorry about that :o I thought there were 2 out of Baltimore. I got it mixed up with Philly, I think there were 2 out of there, then the Rotterdam went up to NY.

Orcrone
August 4th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Yes I disembarked. We boarded in Ft. Lauderdale, and did the Panama Canal then disembarked in Baltimore. Most pax got off in Ft. Lauderdale, I think there were only about 125 pax that stayed the extra 3 days to Baltimore.125 pax from Ft. Lauderdale to Baltimore. Service must have been fantastic.

lknick
August 4th, 2004, 03:18 PM
A bit of clarification.

The load factor algorithm is based on a probability spectrum. Each station is different requiring adjustments to the algorithm using history. Since there is no history for Baltimore, another station probability spectrum was used. Obviously, as any of us who have lived in Maryland will tell you, Baltimore is different.

FAA regulations do require denied boarding compensation be paid by the airlines under certain circumstances, but the compensation is at the discretion of the airlines.

gizmo
August 4th, 2004, 03:27 PM
125 pax from Ft. Lauderdale to Baltimore. Service must have been fantastic.
The last 3 days were nice and relaxing. We had open seating in the dining room and only the upper level was open.
Some of the crew that were supposed to have some off time were scrubbing down the ship instead, since we had an outbreak of the dreaded virus.

tomc
August 4th, 2004, 03:29 PM
I got it mixed up with Philly.

Philly: Perfectly sensible men wearing feathers, playing banjos and strutting up the middle of the street. Mustard on pretzels.

Baltimore: Called "Balmer" by locals, has Inner Harbor in case you don't like the Outer Harbor.

lknick
August 4th, 2004, 04:27 PM
Philly--How could you forget Pat's cheese steaks, center city, Antny from South Pilly and Penn, Drexel and Temple?

Balmore--let me think.

jhannah
August 4th, 2004, 04:37 PM
Baltimore -- Blue crabs and the Merchant Marine Academy.

lknick
August 4th, 2004, 04:43 PM
Baltimore--University of Maryland--Baltimore [one daughters alma matter], US Naval Academy at Anapolis [another daughters alma matter].

BorderLady
August 4th, 2004, 04:46 PM
Bawlmer -- waterfront cafes, mounds of red-pepper encrusted steamed crab served on white butcher paper.

gizmo
August 4th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Philly: Perfectly sensible men wearing feathers, playing banjos and strutting up the middle of the street. Mustard on pretzels.
Yeah! :D Mummers strutting to "O Dem Golden Slippers" ! New Years Day is not the same without it. :D

tomc, do you think their outfits would be appropricate for formal night? After all they are loaded with sequins, beads, and feathers. ;)

Baltimore - Steamed Crabs
Philly - Boiled Crabs

Opinions
August 4th, 2004, 04:58 PM
Baltimore -- Blue crabs and the Merchant Marine Academy.Isn't the Merchant Marine Academy in King's Point, New York?

divinggirl
August 4th, 2004, 05:02 PM
How could you all forget..


Baltimore--Home of the World Champion Ravens!!!!!! :) :D :p
Baltimore-- Home of tons of traffic and bad drivers (and I'm a native ;) )

Plus, most of our nice steaming crabs come from Louisiana anyway, we've fished our poor Bay to death...