What exactly does "Casual" mean?

[CroozeAddict]

Hi Folks,

I've been reading posts on this forum for quite some time now and am really frustrated with the different opinions on the dress code issue. Formal is cut and dry ... no questions about it. But casual is a different story.

I've seen posters refer to "Country Club Casual", "Smart Casual", "Business Casual", etc.

The only thing on the HAL website is "Casual". I've seen a guideline that permits jeans on "Casual" nights. (Not sure if it's official HAL policy.)

My local "Country Club" allows jeans and shorts. My "Business" does not(collared shirt, no jacket, no tie). "Smart" IMHO means jacket without tie. I hope you can see why I'm confused.

I can't help but think that there's a lot of misinformation being dispersed here.

Does anyone know what the real HAL policy is?

I really hope this doesn't turn into a flaming war.

[Big Al B.]

I believe what you refer to as Business is what casual means. HAL used to have three categories, one of which was informal (coat, but no tie etc). The jeans thing seems to be a constant thing here. I have read where some lines are now allowing them. I know NCL cruises out of Houston have always done so. As far as I know, shorts, etc are still not allowed.

[Krazy Kruizers]

HAL now refers to the casual evenings as "Smart Casual". On those nights DH wears slacks and a sport shirt. If we go to the Pinnacle on a smart casual night he wears a jacket (no tie). I wear either a skirt and blouse or dressy slacks and a blouse.

Our country club does not allow jeans or shorts in the main dining room - not for lunch or dinner.

HAL still does not permit shorts in the dining room at dinner time.

[CroozeAddict]

HAL now refers to the casual evenings as "Smart Casual".

Thanks for your reply but I have yet to find the term "Smart Casual" on HAL's website.

[mindydaile]

The reference to smart casual comes (I believe) from this page:

http://www.hollandamerica.com/guests/category.do?category=packing&topic=dressCode


Evening dress falls into two distinct categories; Formal or Smart Casual. Smart Casual can be defined as slacks and sports shirt or sweater for men and skirt or trousers and sweater or blouse for women. T-shirts, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are not allowed in the restaurants or public areas during the evening hours. On festive Formal evenings, ladies usually wear a cocktail dress or gown and gentlemen usually wear a suit and tie or tuxedo.

[CroozeAddict]

The reference to smart casual comes (I believe) from this page:

http://www.hollandamerica.com/guests/category.do?category=packing&topic=dressCode


Evening dress falls into two distinct categories; Formal or Smart Casual. Smart Casual can be defined as slacks and sports shirt or sweater for men and skirt or trousers and sweater or blouse for women. T-shirts, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are not allowed in the restaurants or public areas during the evening hours. On festive Formal evenings, ladies usually wear a cocktail dress or gown and gentlemen usually wear a suit and tie or tuxedo.

Excellent!!! Thank you very much!!!:D

I don't know how I missed looking at that page.

[mindydaile]

I don't know how I missed looking at that page.

I do it all the time :) Seems like HAL duplicates a lot of information on more than one page, but each version is slightly different.

[Yahtic]

Based on my recent Rotterdam cruise anything goes, no dress code being enforced on Formal Nights, plenty of folks without coat and tie and even saw one gentleman in the Pinnacle Grill specialty restuarant eating dinner in shorts surrounded by Tuxedos.

Shabby performance by HAL a so called premium line. The only thing premium is the price.

[hammybee]

Based on my recent Rotterdam cruise anything goes, no dress code being enforced on Formal Nights, plenty of folks without coat and tie and even saw one gentleman in the Pinnacle Grill specialty restuarant eating dinner in shorts surrounded by Tuxedos.

Shabby performance by HAL a so called premium line. The only thing premium is the price.

Why do we blame HAL or any cruise line, for that matter, for the way some of its passengers choose to dress?

Theoverwhelming majority of restaurants, formal entertainment venues, Houses of Worship and so on, have long since thrown in the towel, as it relates to guest attire. And somehow, we expect cruise lines to be the last enforcers of guest dress codes on earth.

And I am not sure what you mean by premium prices. HAL is quite competitive in hyper competitive cruising markets.

[hrhdhd]

Why do we blame HAL or any cruise line, for that matter, for the way some of its passengers choose to dress?

I blame HAL because their employees let passengers who are not abiding by the night's dress code into the dining room. I think they should enforce their own rules because 1) they made the rules and 2) as a passenger, I'm not going to enforce the rules.

Passengers who arrive at the dining room in unaccaptable attire should be redirected, as appropriate, to the Lido, where they can be casual on an informal night, or to their cabins, where they may dine in whatever they wish to wear.

[hammybee]

I blame HAL because their employees let passengers who are not abiding by the night's dress code into the dining room. I think they should enforce their own rules because 1) they made the rules and 2) as a passenger, I'm not going to enforce the rules.

Passengers who arrive at the dining room in unaccaptable attire should be redirected, as appropriate, to the Lido, where they can be casual on an informal night, or to their cabins, where they may dine in whatever they wish to wear.

I guess you have never wittnessed a scene created when the Dining Room managment has done just that. It can get darn ugly.

-hammybee
( who always dresses appropriately)

[Krazy Kruizers]

WOW -- We have eaten many, many times at the Pinnacle Grill and have never seen anyone wear shorts there!! Wonder why the PG manager didn't say something???

[Krazy Kruizers]

And we also ALWAYS dress appropriate!!

No wonder our suitcases weigh so much!!

[hrhdhd]

I guess you have never wittnessed a scene created when the Dining Room managment has done just that. It can get darn ugly.

You're right--I have not witnessed dining room management informing an underdressed passenger that he or she cannot dine in the dining room. I long for the day, however.

[FLACRUISER99]

You're right--I have not witnessed dining room management informing an underdressed passenger that he or she cannot dine in the dining room. I long for the day, however.I have dined on land where a jacket was required. If you did not have one the restaurant loaned you one. Hint Hint

[RevNeal]

You're right--I have not witnessed dining room management informing an underdressed passenger that he or she cannot dine in the dining room. I long for the day, however.

I have witnessed it thrice, most recently just this past January (2007) aboard the Noordam at the upper-level entrance to the main dining room. Our tables were just around the glass dividers from the entrance, so we had a good view of the event. It was witnessed by not just my table but also by several tables around us. I was with a group of CCers, many of whom post regularly on this board and who were witnesses to the event.

[caviargal]

In April on the Oosterdam, three gentlemen attempting to enter the PG without jackets on a semi formal night were turned away by Andrew, the manager. It was done tactfully and all three want back and put on jackets.

I was in this group of 4 couples and had told the gents to expect the dress code to be enforced so was pleased when it was. My DH was already properly dressed so at least one of them paid attention:p.

[Jade13]

I believe what you refer to as Business is what casual means. HAL used to have three categories, one of which was informal (coat, but no tie etc). The jeans thing seems to be a constant thing here. I have read where some lines are now allowing them. I know NCL cruises out of Houston have always done so. As far as I know, shorts, etc are still not allowed.

NCL allows shorts and jeans in the Dining room. I just spoke to someone this am who wanted to try other lines after a horrible experiance on the NCL Spirit (said they would never go on that ship again) however his wife wants to weat shorts and T-shirts to dinner while on vacation so sticking with NCL. That is real casual.

[hammybee]

WOW -- We have eaten many, many times at the Pinnacle Grill and have never seen anyone wear shorts there!! Wonder why the PG manager didn't say something???

Maybe they did not notice.
Maybe the passenger was a VIP.
Maybe the DIning Room had something better to do.
Maybe it never happened.

[cruisinjudy]

On our last cruise two couples at our table told us the first night they did not bring formal wear so they would eat elsewhere on the formal nights. Then it turned out that one other couple was changing to early dinner, but they would join us at late dinner on formal night so we wouldn't be eating alone.

The other two couples decided they also wanted to eat with the four of us on the second formal night and the men arrived in slacks and polo shirts. I know that there were words at the door with the maitre'd and one of the men got a too small jacket, maybe from the waiter? that he hung on the back of his chair. The other man got spoken to but was allowed to enter.

[TomAndJane]

NCL allows shorts and jeans in the Dining room. I just spoke to someone this am who wanted to try other lines after a horrible experiance on the NCL Spirit (said they would never go on that ship again) however his wife wants to weat shorts and T-shirts to dinner while on vacation so sticking with NCL. That is real casual.

I have cruised NCL three times and I have never seen shorts and tee shirts at dinner except at the buffet. At breakfast and lunch you will see shorts and tee shirts but there are signs posted saying that shorts are not allowed at dinner. In addition, NCL now has decided that jeans are allowed in One main dining room for dinner. The other dining room is still classified as Traditional dining.

[kellyinkentucky]

my husband wore khaki ralph lauren shorts w/ tommy bahama shorts every night (with the exception of formal night) to dinner - we never had a problem ...... i'm not sure what the problem is if you are dressed neat and respectful - it is just dinner & we are on vacation :) :)

[Sunshine91]

my husband wore khaki ralph lauren shorts w/ tommy bahama shorts every night (with the exception of formal night) to dinner - we never had a problem ...... i'm not sure what the problem is if you are dressed neat and respectful - it is just dinner & we are on vacation :) :)

Kelly - Your sig doesn't show what cruises you've been on before, just what's upcoming. But the husband wore shorts in the dining room every night except formal??? Was this HAL?

It's not about the neatness, or cleanliness, or the labels, or the cost of the clothes. The cruiseline sets a policy, a rule, a guideline, whatever anyone wants to call it. On most nights - smart casual - admission to the dining room is to wear abc clothing. On formal nights, admission is to wear xyz clothing.

Then the passenger chooses, or not, to follow the cruiseline's policy, rule, guideline, whatever. There are a couple of dining alternatives onboard for those that choose the "not".

Yes, it IS only dinner. Yes, everyone IS only on vacation. NO, it does not affect (or shouldn't) anyone's enjoyment of their meal. What it does affect is the feeling that policies, rules, guidelines, whatever, have been established, and are ignored.

What's the difference between a "dress code" if that the "rule" and a "rule" stating that one must be 21 to gamble in the casino? The latter is enforced so shouldn't the former be too? Or a "rule" that says one isn't to stand on the bow of the ship a la Kate Winslet in Titanic?

Kelly - please don't feel like this is directed at you. It's not. I generally stay out of the dress code threads, but I'm in a mood tonight. :cool:

Hammy - why do we "blame" the cruiselines? Because they establish the rules & then let them be broken without consequence. The restaurants on land that require a tie might have a supply on hand to lend their patrons who arrive bare-necked. :eek:

Thanks for listening. :)

[caviargal]

we never had a problem ...... i'm not sure what the problem is if you are dressed neat and respectful - it is just dinner & we are on vacation :) :)


JMO, but being respectful means that one would honor the dress code, not blatantly disregard it.

I have seen passengers on all lines now except for HAL wear shorts to dinner. IMO, they do not belong there as the cruise lines clearly state.

[hammybee]

Hammy - why do we "blame" the cruiselines? Because they establish the rules & then let them be broken without consequence. The restaurants on land that require a tie might have a supply on hand to lend their patrons who arrive bare-necked. :eek:

Thanks for listening. :)

I remember when restaurants and even some hotel bars used to provide jackets and ties for men. I remember a lot of things.

The NYC Dept. of Health shows more than 20,000 NYC restaurants on their inspection website. According to Zagget, only 2 restautants remain in NYC that require a jacket and tie, for entrance. I think most will agree that NYC has more upscale- fine dining establishments than anywhere else in the U.S.

And yet, some cruise lines seem to be the last enforcers of so-called proper dining attire. It is increasingly a " mass-marketed" cruise line thing as most high end cruise lines have gone casual.

Here's an excerpt from Zaggats 2006 dining guide relative to trends in dinner attire at fine dining establishments in the U.S. :

Dressing Down and Up: While informality has become the mode when it comes to customer attire (hardly any top restaurants require a jacket and tie anymore), restaurants themselves are becoming more and more stylish everyday. High-profile chefs are requiring high-style settings and designers like Frank Gehry, Richard Meier (New York's 66), Todd Oldham (Miami's Wish) and David Rockwell (New York's Nobu) are creating more and more memorable restaurant spaces. With hoteliers, real estate moguls and casino operators subsidizing million dollar restaurant build-outs, it's no surprise that chefs are dressing up their dining rooms.

- Hammybee
who always dresses in code

[DMRick]

On the crown in September, there was an argument over someone wearing shorts. She was refused dining, and apparently she had given her count, and waited..then they said, it's a no go when they said her table was ready, and she started to walk in. She wanted to know why they didn't tell her when she gave her count. I guess they were busy, and hadn't looked down and noticed. I saw no one in shorts during dining hours on NCL..many in capri length, myself included.

I have cruised NCL three times and I have never seen shorts and tee shirts at dinner except at the buffet. At breakfast and lunch you will see shorts and tee shirts but there are signs posted saying that shorts are not allowed at dinner. In addition, NCL now has decided that jeans are allowed in One main dining room for dinner. The other dining room is still classified as Traditional dining.

[kaiiak]

I want to plan ahead for our cruise, so that we don't offend others in the main dining room. Some q's for frequent HAL guests....
1. What is the definition of a t shirt? I always thought a t shirt was a collarless cotton shirt, like the type men wear w/ shorts or to the gym. If a shirt is made of cotton but has a collar (polo style) is that considered a t shirt or is this smart casual? Is this type of shirt acceptable for men in the dining room? How about Tommy Bahama style shirts?
2. For my son (12), are jeans ever acceptable? He does not wear the awful sagging kind - they are neat and clean. But it seems there are differing opinions.

[kellyinkentucky]

Ohhhh goodness for such grumpy's :) :) - i never thought somebody wearing shorts would cause such a frenzy :)- how funny that people take the time to get all worked up over this :) - but, yes we have sailed Holland before - this is actually our 3rd this year. So, I'm glad that I am laid back enough to enjoy my time while on vacation and not get in such a tizzy and ruin my evening if somebody whom i don't know, never met before, nor will probably ever meet again is in the dining room enjoying their evening but have on shorts :) ...... happy cruising no matter what you opt to wear for dinner :)

[kakalina]

I want to plan ahead for our cruise, so that we don't offend others in the main dining room. Some q's for frequent HAL guests....
1. What is the definition of a t shirt? I always thought a t shirt was a collarless cotton shirt, like the type men wear w/ shorts or to the gym. If a shirt is made of cotton but has a collar (polo style) is that considered a t shirt or is this smart casual? Is this type of shirt acceptable for men in the dining room? How about Tommy Bahama style shirts?
2. For my son (12), are jeans ever acceptable? He does not wear the awful sagging kind - they are neat and clean. But it seems there are differing opinions.

Yes, a collared polo shirt is fine for smart casual. So are "Hawaiia'an" style shirts. The HAL dress code does allow jeans on smart casual nights. This doesnt mean many approve; but they are allowed.

[billsrobb]

Why do we blame HAL or any cruise line, for that matter, for the way some of its passengers choose to dress?

Theoverwhelming majority of restaurants, formal entertainment venues, Houses of Worship and so on, have long since thrown in the towel, as it relates to guest attire. And somehow, we expect cruise lines to be the last enforcers of guest dress codes on earth.

And I am not sure what you mean by premium prices. HAL is quite competitive in hyper competitive cruising markets.

We blame HAL because they make a rule and then does not enforce it. No shorts in the dining room but do they enforce it no. someone said that they saw shorts in the PG so it means that HAL is not enforcing a rule. Who else would you blame?

Thanks,

Robb

[jrzebird]

This is simply my own opinion on this topic (which I swore that I'd never get involved in), but I find that when people don't follow the dress code, it takes away from the ambience of the experience. I love to watch others as they walk down the corridors, enter the dining room and take their seats. The beautiful gowns or stunning evening wear, and the gentlemen looking so handsome in their varied dress attire. I think we all behave a bit better and exhibit a more gentile manner when we are 'dressed'. I have nothing against jeans, I wear them all of the time, but they don't belong at a meal that is intended to be special, in a special place. Just my opinion.

[WillieF]

Could it be that because HAL refers to its passengers as 'guests', said guests feel they can dress as they please, regardless of time of day?

In our day anything after 5 pm indicated a degree or 'formality', i.e. shorts, T's etc. were definitely out!

As for open neck shirts, there's an age when men look better wearing a tie or the long out-of-style cravat (I wish they were back in style!) - that crepey, goosey throat is not, in my opinion attractive! Much like a woman (after a certain age!) in a strapless gown. The shoulders and upper arms are frequently less than smooth and firm!

Just MHO and how I see things!

[Copper10-8]

There I was minding my own business, heading west on the Hollywood Freeway, took the Sunset Boulevard off-ramp, hook-shanked a quick left, waited for a homeless person to cross the street, turned the corner and ran right smack into another dress code thread:eek: How cool is that?:)

[Boytjie]

The HAL dress code does allow jeans on smart casual nights. This doesnt mean many approve; but they are allowed.

Thsi is what is on the HAL website:

Evening dress falls into two distinct categories; Formal or Smart Casual. Smart Casual can be defined as slacks and sports shirt or sweater for men and skirt or trousers and sweater or blouse for women. T-shirts, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are not allowed in the restaurants or public areas during the evening hours.
http://www.hollandamerica.com/guests/category.do?category=packing&topic=dressCode

I don't believe jeans qualify as "slacks".

[CroozeAddict]

Hi all,

I pulled this from another thread just in case anyone had a question about dress code in the main dining room. Formal nights are still formal but I guess you can wear jeans every other night. (We'll probably still wear smart casual though.)


Norwegian Cruise Line got a lot of attention when they announced that their policy now officially allows jeans to be worn for dinner in the dining room. We thought they were the only ones officially allowing it - until we checked as part of CND article we were writing for today's issue. Frankly, we were surprised at the lines that say jeans are ok. Here's a list for quick reference:

Updated Aug 10, 2007:


Azamara - no jeans
Carnival - jeans are ok but not encouraged
Celebrity - no jeans
Costa - jeans are ok except on formal nights
Crystal - jeans ok on casual nights, not formal or informal nights
Cunard - no jeans
Disney - jeans ok except on formal and certain theme nights and never ok in Palo's
Holland America - jeans are ok except on formal nights
MSC Cruises - no jeans
Norwegian Cruise Line - jeans are ok
Princess - jeans are ok except on formal nights
Royal Caribbean - jeans are ok except on formal nights
Seabourn - jeans are ok except on formal nights
Silversea - jeans are ok except on formal nightsAll of the lines require the jeans to be neat, clean and presentable, and they cannot have holes or tears. Many lines also had some wording in their policies about being neat and clean. Remember too, that this survey was about dinner in the main dining room. All lines indicated jeans were ok during the daytime.

The information was verified by each line's official spokesperson, but is subject to change.

[AirGorilla]

Maybe they did not notice.
Maybe the passenger was a VIP.
Maybe the DIning Room had something better to do.
Maybe it never happened.

Please see post #8 of this thread. It DID happen.

[AirGorilla]

Thsi is what is on the HAL website:

Evening dress falls into two distinct categories; Formal or Smart Casual. Smart Casual can be defined as slacks and sports shirt or sweater for men and skirt or trousers and sweater or blouse for women. T-shirts, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are not allowed in the restaurants or public areas during the evening hours.
http://www.hollandamerica.com/guests/category.do?category=packing&topic=dressCode

I don't believe jeans qualify as "slacks".

I'm not sure whether they do or not. Not all jeans are alike! My read here is that if HAL didn't want jeans in the dining room, they would be on the "not allowed" list, like shorts and tank tops.

Also, turning back the clock, there was a time when HAL expressly forbid jeans in the dining room. That is not so today.

[hammybee]

Please see post #8 of this thread. It DID happen.

I do not believe everything I read on any message board. I am not calling the poster a troll.

None of us know what really happened. And as I said, it is possible that the guest was a VIP, or the PG Management did not notice or perhaps what this guest was wearing was the least of his concerns, at that time. Heck, maybe this fellow lost his luggage and had nothing else to wear.

In any event, those who allow what other people choose to wear impact their enjoyment of an experience, are bound to be disappointed.

- Hammybee
( who dresses appropriately and does not give a fig what other people wear)

[mamaofami]

A few years ago I was seated across from a table of 8. One gentle man was wearing shorts and when he sat down the waiter spoke to him. He got up and came back dressed in slacks. It was either the Rotterdam or Zuiderdam.

[spacecat]

Ohhhh goodness for such grumpy's :) :) - i never thought somebody wearing shorts would cause such a frenzy :)- how funny that people take the time to get all worked up over this :) - but, yes we have sailed Holland before - this is actually our 3rd this year. So, I'm glad that I am laid back enough to enjoy my time while on vacation and not get in such a tizzy and ruin my evening if somebody whom i don't know, never met before, nor will probably ever meet again is in the dining room enjoying their evening but have on shorts :) ...... happy cruising no matter what you opt to wear for dinner :)

I totally agree about the frenzy. I glance through these posts every now and then and sure enough, here we go with the whole issue over what people wear. I will never understand "ambience". Who cares about the right type of crystal or china or silver or chandeliers or candles on the table? Does dinner really taste better if eaten in a formal gown or tuxedo? NO.... IT DOES NOT!!!! You may talk yourself into believing it does, but I bet my dinner would taste just as good while wearing my comfie jeans.

Shari
(Who believes dinner is all about eating.....)

[gooselace]

I totally agree about the frenzy. I glance through these posts every now and then and sure enough, here we go with the whole issue over what people wear. I will never understand "ambience". Who cares about the right type of crystal or china or silver or chandeliers or candles on the table? Does dinner really taste better if eaten in a formal gown or tuxedo? NO.... IT DOES NOT!!!! You may talk yourself into believing it does, but I bet my dinner would taste just as good while wearing my comfie jeans.

Shari
(Who believes dinner is all about eating.....)

And maybe it would taste as good if it were shoveled onto a cafeteria tray and plunked in front of you by a tattooed server in sleeveless "wife beater" tee-shirt and sweaty sweat pants, but would you enjoy it as much?

On my earliest cruises, some lines still served "continental" style, with the waiter wielding two spoons (or fork and spoon) in one hand. while holding the serving dish of vegetables in the other. Only the entree arrived plated.

Just as I don't expect to see a return to this style of service, I've accepted that many cruisers have less formal interpretations of "formal" and "smart casual" but surely no one should dress for dinner as if they were going to a drive-through.

Jeans weigh more and take up more luggage space than a simple long gown, dressy skirt or nice pants and tops.

[spacecat]

And maybe it would taste as good if it were shoveled onto a cafeteria tray and plunked in front of you by a tattooed server in sleeveless "wife beater" tee-shirt and sweaty sweat pants, but would you enjoy it as much?

On my earliest cruises, some lines still served "continental" style, with the waiter wielding two spoons (or fork and spoon) in one hand. while holding the serving dish of vegetables in the other. Only the entree arrived plated.

Just as I don't expect to see a return to this style of service, I've accepted that many cruisers have less formal interpretations of "formal" and "smart casual" but surely no one should dress for dinner as if they were going to a drive-through.

Jeans weigh more and take up more luggage space than a simple long gown, dressy skirt or nice pants and tops.
I just don't get your point:confused: - Tatoo's and cafeteria trays?

Surely, one should go to dinner to enjoy the food. If I want to go to a fashion show, I'll go to one.

If I want to eat dinner, I'll go where the food is. Its just that simple (or should be).

Shari

[kellyinkentucky]

wooo - hooo shari ~ you rock!!! :) :)

[CroozeAddict]

It's getting to the point that the only reason I read these boards anymore is for the entertainment value:rolleyes:. From what I've read here, it might be more entertaining than HAL's on-board entertainment. I guess I'll find out in January:cool:.

[peaches from georgia]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]On my earliest cruises, some lines still served "continental" style, with the waiter wielding two spoons (or fork and spoon) in one hand. while holding the serving dish of vegetables in the other. Only the entree arrived plated.


When we sailed Celebrity this is the way the stewards served in the dining room and it was great. Much more personalized service that just having a fixed plate put in front of you. I'm wondering if X still does this?

[babyher]

There I was minding my own business, heading west on the Hollywood Freeway, took the Sunset Boulevard off-ramp, hook-shanked a quick left, waited for a homeless person to cross the street, turned the corner and ran right smack into another dress code thread:eek: How cool is that?:)


Now see what you should have done was take The Ventura Freeway , to the Santa Monica Freeway , take a right at the fork in the road until you get to The Slaussen Cut Off . CUT OFF YOUR SLAUSSEN. Get back in the car, take the I-5 10 miles to the HAL ship where the Maitre D' will tell you
"Sorry sir, you can't enter the dining room without a Slaussen" :)

[bicker]

Why do we blame HAL or any cruise line, for that matter, for the way some of its passengers choose to dress? Indeed, and even the written word is subject to interpretation by each person, and unless that interpretation is explicitly contradictory, it is as valid an interpretation as any other.

And I am not sure what you mean by premium prices. HAL is quite competitive in hyper competitive cruising markets.Again, indeed: Holland America was the low-cost provider for our up-coming cruise, among the four cruise lines we considered.

[spacecat]

wooo - hooo shari ~ you rock!!! :) :)

Why do I feel many would like to throw me over-board??:) (Me and my jeans, of course!!) ha ha!!

Shari in California

[bicker]

The cruiseline sets a policy, a rule, a guideline, whatever anyone wants to call it.What they call it matters. Also, even beyond that, how they choose to enforce it (or not) matters to some extent. In this case, it is important to differentiate prohibitions in the policy from recommendations. The Holland America dress code contains one sentence which is a suggestion, and another which is a directive. It is reasonable to expect people to comply with the directive. It is not reasonable to expect people to comply with the suggestion. And that's where a lot of the confusion stems from.

There are very few, if any, people who actually post that folks in shorts should feel entitled to dine in the dining room on formal nights. That's really a red herring. The real disputes in understanding typically stem from folks insisting that suggestions are directives or vice versa.

Hammy - why do we "blame" the cruiselines? Because they establish the rules & then let them be broken without consequence.That is their prerogative. By the same token, though there are cases of actual rule-breaking reported (such as the no jacket on formal night case cited earlier in this thread), there are also a lot of cases where what is being complained-about is people not following suggestions, which isn't reasonable IMHO.

[bicker]

Who else would you blame?This might be rhetorical, and may also be mis-directed, but often I note that some folks view blame as an either/or thing: Either X is to blame, or Y is to blame. That is not the case; there is always the option that there is no blame. It doesn't provide closure to those who aren't getting their way, in a certain circumstance, but that's an unfortunate fact of life. :(

[bicker]

Could it be that because HAL refers to its passengers as 'guests', said guests feel they can dress as they please, regardless of time of day?On the contrary, being a "guest" implies a stronger obligation to the "host" than being a "customer" implies towards a "supplier". So the issue is that transgressors generally are people who are looking at the relationship realistically (customer/supplier) rather than through the lens of the fiction (guest/host) that I personally prefer (and perhaps you do as well).

[bicker]

Does dinner really taste better if eaten in a formal gown or tuxedo? NO.... IT DOES NOT!!!! You may talk yourself into believing it does, but I bet my dinner would taste just as good while wearing my comfie jeans. I don't think this is really on-the-mark, at least not for me. First, let's get past the issue of the "taste" of the food. A dining experience is far more than that. So let's just assume we're on the same page, acknowledging dining as a full experience...

There is no question that I would enjoy my meal best if I was dressed in lounge pants and a t-shirt -- very very comfortable clothing. The impact of the appearance of attire on my dining experience is solely with regard to what I see and since my eyes were installed in my head facing outward, the only attire for which the appearance has any ability to affect my dining experience is other people's attire.

Now, I don't want to go further than that, because I don't have strong feeling about the impact of other people's attire on my dining experience. My point was solely that my own attire only affects my dining experience in a certain way, and that the optimal attire in that regard would be, as I said, attire that is very very casual. I comply with the dress code, and also the cruise line's suggestions for that matter, solely out of respect for other diners, including my wife. And I believe that should be enough motivation for anyone to comply with the explicit requirements of the dress code, at least, if not the suggestions as well.

[bicker]

Jeans weigh more and take up more luggage space than a simple long gown, dressy skirt or nice pants and tops. This is a bit of a red herring. Jeans are multi-purpose, and so need to be compared, in terms of weight, as well as volume, against not only the "nice pants" they'd replace in the dining room on smart casual night, but also the other uses the passenger would make of them during the same trip, such as touring, recreation, etc. The more multi-purpose clothing is, the more likely it will fare well on the "weight/volume per hour worn" scale, which is the ultimate measure of the value of bringing a certain piece of clothing with you on a cruise.

[spacecat]

I don't think this is really on-the-mark, at least not for me. First, let's get past the issue of the "taste" of the food. A dining experience is far more than that. So let's just assume we're on the same page, acknowledging dining as a full experience...

There is no question that I would enjoy my meal best if I was dressed in lounge pants and a t-shirt. The impact of attire on my dining experience is solely with regard to what I see (and how comfortable I am) and since my eyes were installed in my head facing outward, the only attire for which the appearance has any ability to affect my dining experience is other people's attire.

Now, I don't want to go further than that, because I don't have strong feeling about the impact of other people's attire on my dining experience. My point was solely that my own attire only affects my dining experience in a certain way, and that the optimal attire in that regard would be, as I said, attire that is very very casual.

With respect, let me say we are NOT on the same page. My dining experiences ARE about the taste of the food. Thats the FULL experience to me. Nothing more, nothing less. I also respect that to some, appreciating what others are wearing is part of THEIR experience.

My eyes (also installed in my head facing outward:D ) don't bother paying attention to what my fellow diners are wearing. Its the truth. What others wear have no bearing on my experience, and I have a hard time believing that my jeans would cause others to lose their appetites.

Shari

[Copper10-8]

Now see what you should have done was take The Ventura Freeway , to the Santa Monica Freeway , take a right at the fork in the road until you get to The Slaussen Cut Off . CUT OFF YOUR SLAUSSEN. Get back in the car, take the I-5 10 miles to the HAL ship where the Maitre D' will tell you
"Sorry sir, you can't enter the dining room without a Slaussen" :)

I would appreciate it if you would leave my Slaussen alone!:)

[babyher]

With respect, let me say we are NOT on the same page. My dining experiences ARE about the taste of the food. Thats the FULL experience to me. Nothing more, nothing less. I also respect that to some, appreciating what others are wearing is part of THEIR experience.

My eyes (also installed in my head facing outward:D ) don't bother paying attention to what my fellow diners are wearing. Its the truth. What others wear have no bearing on my experience, and I have a hard time believing that my jeans would cause others to lose their appetites.

Shari



I feel the same as you , If I am going out to eat, the main thing is the food. Of course the cleanliness of the place is important and if it is a pretty setting that is nice. But What other people are wearing truly makes no difference to me.

On that note, I do dress appropriately for the required code of the evening, and certainly respect others who do enjoy the formal atmosphere.

Your post reminds me of a review I read of a very famous Hollywood restaurant. This article raved about the new decor which was designed by this hot new designer. Went on to mention which big stars were regulars there and which night was their usual night in case you want to go "Star Watching" . They listed the prices ,(Ridiculously high) and at the end of the review it gives the food 2 out of 5 stars.!!!!!!!!!!!


Thats it ???????????

Sorry I go to a restaurant for a good meal, not to get ripped off for sitting in a Taj Mahal eating crap and watching Brad and Angelina in the next booth. *LOL*

[iancal]

I will be wearing neatly pressed jeans at some point on our cruise...I can assure you of that. And frankly, I won't really care what anyone, other than dw, thinks. DW will probably be wearing her white jeans-they may be very weighty, but she likes them and we will be coming from a cold climate. And we won't be dining at the buffet or in our room either.

Now, in order to actually live up to expectations/perceptions of some HAL posters, should we get tatoos, not wash our hair for several days, ensure our jeans are ripped and greasy, make our fingernails dirty, wear sweaty t-shirts, eat with our hands, and practice poor grammmer and unacceptable conversation???? We are normally very conservative.

[Boytjie]

Why do I feel many would like to throw me over-board??:) (Me and my jeans, of course!!) ha ha!!

Shari in California

The jeans could be used as a flotation device if the openings are tied shut after willing it with air.

[Boytjie]

I will be wearing neatly pressed jeans at some point on our cruise...I can assure you of that. And frankly, I won't really care what anyone, other than dw, thinks. DW will probably be wearing her white jeans-they may be very weighty, but she likes them and we will be coming from a cold climate. And we won't be dining at the buffet or in our room either.

Jeans should never be pressed! What is this world coming to??
<ducks again>

[RevNeal]

With respect, let me say we are NOT on the same page. My dining experiences ARE about the taste of the food. Thats the FULL experience to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

And that was the whole point of gooselace's hyperbolic remark about having one's food "shoveled onto a cafeteria tray and plunked in front of you by a tattooed server in a sleeveless "wifebeater" tee-shirt and sweaty sweat pants." While it's an exaggeration, the point is well-made. Let me put this simply: if your dining experiences really ARE just about the taste of the food -- and nothing else (as you above indicate in saying that such is the "FULL" experience to you) -- then why bother eating in such a venue? You don't have to eat there in order to get equally good food ... such can be had in the Lido or, via room service, in your cabin. Why bother with a well-appointed dining room, beautiful china and silverware, well-appointed and trained and polite and enjoyable stewards, and engaging dining companions if the only thing that's important to you is the food?? Why not just

While I love Formal Nights and also appreciate the casual elegance that can be had even on Smart Casual Nights, clothing is NOT the be-all-and-end-all of the ship or the dining room's "ambiance." It's just one part an entire package, the other aspects of which are of equal importance to me: the food, the service, the china and silverware, the beauty of the room, and my dining companions ... all of these are of critical importance for me in the overall "ambiance." It's not just clothing.

Does my food taste the same regardless of ambiance? Sure ... but the overall experience is, nevertheless, very different when I eat off of paper plates with a plastic spork as opposed to a full place-setting of Rosenthal China and a full assortment of silverware.

[RevNeal]

Now, in order to actually live up to expectations/perceptions of some HAL posters, should we get tatoos, not wash our hair for several days, ensure our jeans are ripped and greasy, make our fingernails dirty, wear sweaty t-shirts, eat with our hands, and practice poor grammmer and unacceptable conversation???? We are normally very conservative.

Oh, no ... no need to go to that extreme! :) Pretty funny, though.

Again, as I've said before, the dress code allows for jeans on Smart Casual evenings ... no problem. Don't let anyone's opinions on their being "inappropriate" in the main dining room bother you because the Code does not say that. Jeans are not my "thing," but I understand that they are some people's. I consider them "sweaty-work clothing" -- I wore jeans yesterday to help in unloading a truck full of pumpkins for our church's pumpkin patch. I don't consider them "clothing for dining in." But, some people do.

[RevNeal]

Why do I feel many would like to throw me over-board??:) (Me and my jeans, of course!!) ha ha!!

Oh, no, Shari ... I don't think anyone wants to throw you, or your jeans, overboard. In addition to a dress code and a liquor code, HAL also has a "Nothing Overboard" regulation. Those who don't believe that rules or codes apply to them might also feel comfortable ignoring that regulation, but not HAL formalists. :D ;) So, never fear ... WE won't throw you overboard. :)

[bicker]

I don't think this is really on-the-mark, at least not for me.With respect, let me say we are NOT on the same page. My dining experiences ARE about the taste of the food. Thats the FULL experience to me.I think we are on the same page... note I said in my message, "at least not for me." The key aspect of this is that the experience is different for different people, and so it makes sense that different things will matter to different people.

I also respect that to some, appreciating what others are wearing is part of THEIR experience.That was indeed the point I was trying to make.

What others wear have no bearing on my experience, and I have a hard time believing that my jeans would cause others to lose their appetites. This is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. It isn't necessary for jeans to have that extreme effect in order for the effect to be significant enough to be a consideration. There is a wide spectrum of possible effect, from no effect, to what you suggested (losing appetite) and beyond. Any level of effect, beyond that which is "significant", matters.

So the question comes down to whether "your" attire has any "significant" effect on the dining experience of anyone else, and to what extent the rules obligate you to contribute constructively to the dining experiences of those others, versus doing what you'd prefer to do instead.

[bicker]

Isn't it wonderful how I can skip back and forth between supporting one side of this discussion and then the other? :) Let me put this simply: if your dining experiences really ARE just about the taste of the food -- and nothing else (as you above indicate in saying that such is the "FULL" experience to you) -- then why bother eating in such a venue?I am not sure if this applies for spacecat, but for many folks for whom attire of diners is not a concern, the full experience includes taste and service. And that explains why they aim for such a venue.

You don't have to eat there in order to get equally good food ...This is not untrue, but also not as straight-forward as it seems. FWIR, without getting mired in a detailed discussion of the actual particulars, it isn't always as easy and reliable to get some menu items available in the dining room through other means.*


* I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong wrt HAL, but FWIR, some items available in the dining room are simply not made available in the Lido, nor via room service. Also, for some items, if you don't order room service within a narrow space of time, you're also out-of-luck.

[peaches from georgia]

* I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong wrt HAL, but FWIR, some items available in the dining room are simply not made available in the Lido, nor via room service. Also, for some items, if you don't order room service within a narrow space of time, you're also out-of-luck.
You can get all the items on the dinner menu served by room service. Yes, you must call and order during the beginning of the early dinner seating, but you can arrange to have it delivered throughout the dining room hours, the same as if you actually went to the dining room, at your usual hour. So you can get the same food, the same taste, and served by a steward on a white tablecloth in your room. We often prefer it by room service, especially if we don't feel like getting formal or even smart casual.

[iancal]

I wore jeans last week to finish my ceramic tiling. They were my work jeans-no need to iron. We will be wearing our 'good' jeans on the HAL cruise, as we have done on Celebrity, RCL, Crystal, Princess and NCL.
DW always presses hers. I normally don't. I will on our HAL cruise....don't want to bear the brunt of any harsh criticism.

[RevNeal]

I am not sure if this applies for spacecat, but for many folks for whom attire of diners is not a concern, the full experience includes taste and service. And that explains why they aim for such a venue.

I most certainly understand that. I was responding specifically and directly to spacecat's assertion that ALL spacecat cared about was the taste of food. Nothing else mattered to spacecat. Hence, my question ... if all one cares about is the food, then why bother with the rest of the ambiance. There's more to ambiance than clothing. If one likes the food and the service, then sure ... I can understand wanting to dine in the formal dining room. But that was NOT what spacecat said, and I was responding to spacecat.

This is not untrue, but also not as straight-forward as it seems. FWIR, without getting mired in a detailed discussion of the actual particulars, it isn't always as easy and reliable to get some menu items available in the dining room through other means.*

Actually ... it is very possible. As has been reported on this board, you can order any and everything off the menu through room service for in-cabin dining. And, at least most of the main dining room menu is available in the Lido.

* I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong wrt HAL, but FWIR, some items available in the dining room are simply not made available in the Lido, nor via room service. Also, for some items, if you don't order room service within a narrow space of time, you're also out-of-luck.

As has been stated, you're in error. Yes, the order-window is during the first part of the first seating ... but you can have it delivered at any point during first and main seating.

[RevNeal]

I wore jeans last week to finish my ceramic tiling. They were my work jeans-no need to iron. We will be wearing our 'good' jeans on the HAL cruise, as we have done on Celebrity, RCL, Crystal, Princess and NCL.
DW always presses hers. I normally don't. I will on our HAL cruise....don't want to bear the brunt of any harsh criticism.

I only own work jeans. :)
Does one really press one's jeans? Given how thick my jeans are, it sounds like an exercise in futility.

[spacecat]

And that was the whole point of gooselace's hyperbolic remark about having one's food "shoveled onto a cafeteria tray and plunked in front of you by a tattooed server in a sleeveless "wifebeater" tee-shirt and sweaty sweat pants." While it's an exaggeration, the point is well-made. Let me put this simply: if your dining experiences really ARE just about the taste of the food -- and nothing else (as you above indicate in saying that such is the "FULL" experience to you) -- then why bother eating in such a venue? You don't have to eat there in order to get equally good food ... such can be had in the Lido or, via room service, in your cabin. Why bother with a well-appointed dining room, beautiful china and silverware, well-appointed and trained and polite and enjoyable stewards, and engaging dining companions if the only thing that's important to you is the food?? Why not just

While I love Formal Nights and also appreciate the casual elegance that can be had even on Smart Casual Nights, clothing is NOT the be-all-and-end-all of the ship or the dining room's "ambiance." It's just one part an entire package, the other aspects of which are of equal importance to me: the food, the service, the china and silverware, the beauty of the room, and my dining companions ... all of these are of critical importance for me in the overall "ambiance." It's not just clothing.

Does my food taste the same regardless of ambiance? Sure ... but the overall experience is, nevertheless, very different when I eat off of paper plates with a plastic spork as opposed to a full place-setting of Rosenthal China and a full assortment of silverware.

We DID eat in the Lido most times (5 nights out of 7) - tried the dining room experience twice and it wasnt for us (mainly because I couldnt dress the way I wanted to)

[twinkletoes4445]

On our cruise last Feb., people in the dining room were dressed much more casual than I thought they would be dressed, at least on the "casual" nights. I'd brought along several nice pantsuit-type outfits, but I ended up wearing nicer capri sets.

For the men, we saw mostly Docker slacks and polo shirts or Hawaiian-type shirts.

The ladies wore sundresses, capri sets, slacks, blouses with and without sleeves.

It was really casual, IMO, and I was really glad I'd brought along some extra casual clothing. Next time, that's all I'm bringing...besides something for the formal nights.

[Boytjie]

Does one really press one's jeans?


No, NEVER! :eek:

[DesertDogs]

Does one really press one's jeans?

Yes - Always. I iron everything I wear. :D

[bicker]

Yes, you must call and order during the beginning of the early dinner seatingYes, this was the point I was making: it isn't always as easy and reliable to get some menu items available in the dining room through other means.

[bicker]

I was responding specifically and directly to spacecat's assertion that ALL spacecat cared about was the taste of food.I'll be interested to see if he clarifies his feelings on this.

And, at least most of the main dining room menu is available in the Lido.Could you please detail the items from the main dining room menu that are not available in the Lido? That would also underscore what people would be missing out on by passing on the dining room.

As has been stated, you're in error. Yes, the order-window is during the first part of the first seating ... Thanks for the clarification. That's what I meant. It is just a half-hour right?

[RevNeal]

We DID eat in the Lido most times (5 nights out of 7) - tried the dining room experience twice and it wasnt for us (mainly because I couldnt dress the way I wanted to)

Ah, ok! I understand.

[RevNeal]

On our cruise last Feb., people in the dining room were dressed much more casual than I thought they would be dressed, at least on the "casual" nights. I'd brought along several nice pantsuit-type outfits, but I ended up wearing nicer capri sets.

For the men, we saw mostly Docker slacks and polo shirts or Hawaiian-type shirts.

The ladies wore sundresses, capri sets, slacks, blouses with and without sleeves.

It was really casual, IMO, and I was really glad I'd brought along some extra casual clothing. Next time, that's all I'm bringing...besides something for the formal nights.

What you describe is pretty much the average on Smart Casual Nights. Some people will dress up a little more, but most will dress as you describe. I usually wear dockers, polo shirt or silk shirt or print shirt or button-down and jacket.

[RevNeal]

Yes - Always. I iron everything I wear. :D

Underwear? ;) :eek:

[RevNeal]

Yes, this was the point I was making: it isn't always as easy and reliable to get some menu items available in the dining room through other means.

True ... but it is possible. If all one is interested in is the food, and doesn't care about place settings, table-cloths and crisp napkins, or good service, then why bother with the main dining room when excellent food can be had in less formal settings.

[RevNeal]

Could you please detail the items from the main dining room menu that are not available in the Lido? That would also underscore what people would be missing out on by passing on the dining room.

I've never had dinner in the Lido, so I can't say for sure. However, I've heard/read people stating that crab legs and lobster couldn't be had in the Lido. At least, that was the case on a particular cruise. Such might not be the case on all. And, again, I've only had dinner in the Main Dining room and the Pinnacle, never in the Lido.

Thanks for the clarification. That's what I meant. It is just a half-hour right?

I'm not sure, given that I've never done it and the one person I now who has dined every night in their cabin never bothered to answer my question on this matter when I put it to them several months back. It may be the first half hour or, maybe, the first hour. I'll find out (by asking) when I'm aboard the Volendam next month.

[twinkletoes4445]

What you describe is pretty much the average on Smart Casual Nights. Some people will dress up a little more, but most will dress as you describe. I usually wear dockers, polo shirt or silk shirt or print shirt or button-down and jacket.

For some reason, I thought the dress would be dressier, but I was happy to be able to wear my nicer capri sets to dinner. Much more comfy. :)

[bicker]

I've never had dinner in the Lido, so I can't say for sure. However, I've heard/read people stating that crab legs and lobster couldn't be had in the Lido.We're really big crab legs fans. (We couldn't care less about lobster.) Regardless, reasonable folks can view these items as important enough to their cruise experience to warrant ensuring a visit to the dining room on the night they're offered. Having said that, I'm not sure it's relevant, since I seem to remember reading that these items are only offered on formal nights, never on casual nights. So, wrt this thread, the question really boils down to whether any items are offered in the dining on casual nights that are not offered in the Lido?

It may be the first half hour or, maybe, the first hour. I'll find out (by asking) when I'm aboard the Volendam next month.Found the answer (on another website): "In fact, it is possible to order dining room meals from the evening's menu to be served in your cabin, but only if you order during the first 1/2 hour the dining room is open (6:00 on most cruises, but this can vary, call room service to verify when it is available)." This is also confirmed by a message from CC member RuthC:
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=2260239&postcount=2
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=9530761&postcount=2

A reasonable person could consider that quite restrictive, but even beyond that, if you miss the window, it might then make more sense for a person desiring one of those items to elect to eat in the dining room (or the Lido, if the answer to the question above is negative) that night.

[iancal]

Does HAl have some sort of guidance or rules regarding those Hawaiian shirts that someone mentioned. Some of these have very loud patterns that can be very off putting and they distract the wait staff.

[Copper10-8]

Does HAl have some sort of guidance or rules regarding those Hawaiian shirts that someone mentioned. Some of these have very loud patterns that can be very off putting and they distract the wait staff.

1. No, and please don't get them started!:eek:

2. No worries! In that case, sunglasses will be issued to said wait staff!

[kakalina]

[quote=bicker;11910862]We're really big crab legs fans. (We couldn't care less about lobster.) Regardless, reasonable folks can view these items as important enough to their cruise experience to warrant ensuring a visit to the dining room on the night they're offered. Having said that, I'm not sure it's relevant, since I seem to remember reading that these items are only offered on formal nights, never on casual nights. So, wrt this thread, the question really boils down to whether any items are offered in the dining on casual nights that are not offered in the Lido?

Found the answer (on another website): "In fact, it is possible to order dining room meals from the evening's menu to be served in your cabin, but only if you order during the first 1/2 hour the dining room is open (6:00 on most cruises, but this can vary, call room service to verify when it is available)." This is also confirmed by a message from CC member RuthC:
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=2260239&postcount=2
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=9530761&postcount=2

We eat in the Lido at least half the time for dinner. Many times we have had crab legs during the afternoon in the Lido, sometimes all the crab legs and jumbo shrimp you can eat.
We have found lobster in the Lido on formal nights on the longer 30 day or better cruises. The same for the king crab legs.
We order room service quite often and dinner can be order during the first half hour of either dinner seating. I know this for a fact I have done it. That may change with only one traditional seating now.

[bicker]

Can someone clarify the crab legs situation for 7-10 night cruises? I understand that 30 night cruises will be quite different.

And what do you mean by "in the afternoon"? Do you mean lunch? or something else?

[sandyblue029]

How did casual dining get to ordering crab legs?

[bicker]

Thread drift.... I'll ask the question in a different thread.

[gooselace]

Just wanted to thank revneal for recognizing my hyperbole, and knowing that I was not implying the the OP (I think - who remembers now) was planning to wear dirty torn jeans and sweaty shirts. I'm well aware of $250-$500 designer jeans, but will plan to make do with my secondhand formal dress.