Can you handle another tipping thread? What I saw.

[Jacqueline]

I almost feel a need to apologize for starting this one but was suprised at what I saw on our recent trip on the Westerdam.
Just to recap, in our precruise documents was the full explanation of the *new* tipping policy for HAL outlining how autotipping works, etc. Having traveled Princess and Celebrity mostly in the past, we have always gone this route as we are the sorts of people that tend to use credit cards for everything- plus the tips would be coming out close to $1000 for our trip and we did not want to bring any more cash than we needed to to Europe.
Since we had a DVD player in our room I was at the Front office more than usual. I must say, these people have the patience of a saint. I would last about 5 minutes at that job... Oh back to the topic. From day one people wanted to remove their tips. Not because they wanted to be more personal, give cash, write notes, but just cause they didnt want to pay. This was a theme I saw several times each time I was at the desk looking thru the DVD catalog. Each time people were told that this could be done the last day of the cruise.
BTW- no one was complaining about the quality of the service. It was more along the lines of $10 a day why thats $130 for the cruise !! times 2! I thought it was included... Things have gone down hill since Carnival took over... The tips USED to be included,,,Etc...Its amazing all these people could afford to fly to Europe and take a 13 day cruise. I guess they couldnt afford excursions or drinks in the lounge either.
The worst was the last day when Pietro had his desk set up near the front office (which was a big mistake- people who were just complaining about items on their preliminary statement decided, I believe, to take off the tips because they overheard others doing it. And they were already cranky over something else.) Of course he would want to know WHY in the event that his staff had fallen short and not provided good service etc. I did not hear that. The fellow in line ahead of me for the front desk stole over to the tip adjustment line and removed the tip for his 13 year old son. I was hoping he would try and regain his spot in front of me so that I could ask whether his son was served dinner at the table or had his bed made everyday but he slunk off in shame, I think afterwards. Or maybe it was the look I shot him that frightened him away !
I didnt hear anyone say that they were removing the autotip so that they would have the pleasure of tipping personally (although I am sure that this was sometimes the case. At least I HOPE so.)

[dakrewser]

There are, unfortunately, very few places you can go where the rude and crude are excluded (and the rule is enforced :rolleyes: ). Its simply a sad commentary on our times. These are also probably the same people who turn their children loose to terrorize the ship....

[sail7seas]

Thank you for posting this. I was afraid this would happen.


There were so many people who did not tip when "it was at our discretion".....what did HAL think would make them more generous now?

A dead beat tip stiffer will always be a dead beat tip stiffer.

The saddest part of it all is that the crew remembers. They know when they see some of these folks that they have served them before and they remember they stiffed them. BUT, it makes no difference. When these crude ignoramouses return for another cruise, they still get the beautiful smile and gracious service. They don't even have the grace to be embarrassed to see stewards again who they know they stiffed a year ago.


Their cruises could not have been THAT BAD that they did not think a tip was appropriate or they would have never returned to HAL for another 'horrible experience'.

[elmorejj]

I am sitting here shaking my head in amazement! how horrid for the crew. I guess it`s only a matter of time before HAL :cool: goes the way NCL has gone and make it mandantory...such a shame.....jean

[FlorenceItaly]

I too am amazed that after paying x amount of dollars for the cruise, airfare, drinks, excurisions, etc....people take off the VERY SMALL AMOUNT that the tip amounts to in relation to the "big picture"....I am not articulating well, but you get the picture........TACKY!

Marie

[98Charlie]

Just a thought on why HAL would change their policy.did HAL think would make them more generous now Maybe not more generous but at least the cheapskates will have to face someone and say (kind of like at an AA meeting): "Hi, my name is (fill in the blank) and I'm a cheapskate. Please take the tips off of my room because my bar bill is too high. And besides, the room steward put the toilet paper on the dispenser wrong."

In the long run some who previously didn't tip would not want to face a real person to have the tips removed. I think that it might benefit the crew, however slightly.

Its simply a sad commentary on our times. Amen, brother.

[ASM]

I don't know what to say . I'm shocked.

[jazzsea]

It makes me sick to my stomach. You showed a great deal of restraint. I'm not sure I could have.

My hope is that HAL makes the tipping mandatory.

[TedC]

On our May Westerdam cruise, Cruise Director Gary Walker, a Brit who now lives in Fla., announced from the stage that most of those who eliminated the auto-tip were Europeans.

There were pax holding passports from 38 nations on our cruise. More than half of the pax were non-U.S. passport holders.

Perhaps, in some cases, it's a cultural thing?

[RevNeal]

My hope is that HAL makes the tipping mandatory.

I hope so too. To do that, the best option is to add it into the cruise fare. If they were to do this they could then claim that the tips are included and it would be true. :) That would be a strong marketing ploy ... I just don't understand why HAL doesn't do it.

[98Charlie]

Ted - You have a great point regarding the European culture. It's considered OK to round your restaurant/bar bill up to the next unit. But, the idea of adding a percentage is unEuropean. The price posted is the price you pay.

Even sales taxes (generally Value Added Tax) are included in the price of store items.

My hope is that HAL makes the tipping mandatory. It probably won't be long before most or all of the cruise lines have a mandatory service charge a la NCL.

The cruise lines have brought some of this problem upon themselves by calling it a tip or gratuity in the first place. The "tipped" staff makes <$100 per month. I don't know of anyone (cheapskates included) who could say with a straight face that that is an appropriate wage for the work the crew does. Therefore: It's not a tip. It's not a gratuity. It's their paycheck.

Sincerely,

Charlie (stepping down from the soap box ;) )

[HeatherInFlorida]

I must live somewhere in La La Land. It truly never occured to me that people would just walk off the ship without tipping their waiters and cabin stewards ... at the very least! And now to go to this much trouble in order to stiff those who have served them is unconsionable.

Maybe I was born yesterday after all:o

[98Charlie]

the best option is to add it into the cruise fare. If added into the cruise price, it would be subject to taxes and commissions. Probably best for everyone if it comes as a service charge.

[jima53]

I've only cruised one time on carnival with a HAL cruise coming in october and a carnival cruise on 1/15/05. After thinking about the tipping situation I really liked the automatic tip added to the cruise bill based on per person per day. What I didn't like was the 15% added to everything I drank that came from a coffee counter. I guess I didn't like having someone hand me a cup of coffee and then have the added tip for basically no added service. I mean, it wasn't a self service counter, which tells me someone is suppose to pour it in the cup for me....It brings back the tip jar you see next to a cash register in stores as if they deserve a tip for ringing up your order and taking your money for payment. Tips for those that deserve it. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for people like cocktail waitresses andwaiters, and also bartenders that do provide a service receiving the tip on the bill, I would never let someone bring something to me and not tip them...same with the great room service people...but not for basic service other than money added to the daily cruise per person.

Jim

[DFD1]

I fail to understand why the cruise industry, including HAL, does not put this problem to bed once and for all. They can simply add the $l0 per day amount to the published cruise fares, create an advertising and information campaign telling the cruising public what they have done and why: set up a fair compensation plan for employees (whatever that might be, depending on the department and the employee union requirements), showing how that $l0 per day is distributed, get that information to their customers thru mailings, flyers in the documents, and postings on their website and get this pesky problem behind them.
If they did this, I believe that we would all feel better about it in the long run and in a few months the tipping issue would probably be a non-issue.

[stillfrantic]

A lot of those people may very well have booked their cruises months ago, when travel agents were still telling clients, "You don't need to tip on HAL. It will save you money over another line." Maybe they were just shocked. It is in the booklet, but for the next six months, it really is still "new" to many.

Of course, yes, I am horrified there was actually a line to do this, and people would do it and still show their faces. I am definately not making excuses or agreeing, just offereing that maybe it will get better in time.

[RevNeal]

My hope is that HAL makes the tipping mandatory.

Not necessarily. As with Taxes, Port Fees, and the NDA, it could be added onto the total which is 75 days before sailing. That would make the fare "inclusive" in the sense that one would have paid their gratuities up front, before ever boarding.

[olderpilot]

The "European" theory really isn't valid either. Many, if not most, European restaurants add a service charge to the bill so why would adding the $10/day be any different.

S7s had a great point that had escaped me. Some of these folks have had multiple cruises on HAL and never tipped. The crew has to know that, and still they do such a good job. Only once have I seen a crewmember get upset. Several years ago on the last morning of 10 day Caribbean cruise one of the waiters who had been stiffed was in a very foul mood serving the last breakfast. He came across some passengers complaining about their breakfast and he just lost it. The maitre d' had to escort him out of the dining room. However, most of us understood what had happened.

Some things and some people I just don't understand

[Peggy Sue]

I am amazed that people can be served by these men and women for the length of their cruise and not be moved to give them a tip. They work so hard, and they play a huge part in what makes the over all cruise experience so enjoyable. How many times have we heard people want to take their cabin steward home? Their gracious service, smiles and dedication to their task are amazing.

So people don't tip paper boys or the pizza delivery guy.. I guess it's all what we are comfortable with at the end of the day.

We believe HAL should make the service charge mandatory. We're glad some of the hard workers we don't interact with day to day will also share the tips. We also believe that a cash tip to those who served us so well every day is something we'll gladly do at the end of the cruise..with a nice thank you note.

People are amazing. I remember a co-worker who went out to a group lunch..about 15 of us. We all chipped in 2 dollars towards a group tip. It came to about 30%..but why haggle over quarters, plus the waitress really did a fantastic job getting our food out quickly, drinks etc. This man waited for the group to leave and then went back to the table and removed 10 dollars...I had returned to the room to get the umbrella I had forgotten...Sheepish, he said it was just too much to leave her. He pocketed the money and walked out...He made money that afternoon.... some people just don't get it...

Peggy Sue

[jhannah]

A dead beat tip stiffer will always be a dead beat tip stiffer.Say that five times real fast!!! Sad but true, Sail.

The saddest case I ever heard was just last February on (sorry) another cruise line. A guy was at the purser's desk complaining about the auto tip being charged to both he and his wife. "We're in one room, and the steward had just one bed to make." I could hardly believe my ears. The gentle soul behind the desk was trying to reason with him ... but to no avail. She finally asked how much of the tip he wanted removed. He said, "All of it." sigh. :(

About just adding this amount to the cruise fare ... wouldn't that then make those charges taxable revenue for the cruise line? Maybe that's why they're hesitant to do it. But in the name of all that's decent by their employees, it seems like it would be in their best interest to pay extra taxes and take better care of their people.

[saltydog28]

The cruise lines have brought some of this problem upon themselves by calling it a tip or gratuity in the first place. The "tipped" staff makes <$100 per month. I don't know of anyone (cheapskates included) who could say with a straight face that that is an appropriate wage for the work the crew does. Therefore: It's not a tip. It's not a gratuity. It's their paycheck.


Charlie (stepping down from the soap box ;) )[/QUOTE]

Hi Charlie,
Could you step back up on your soapbox and tell me where you got the figure $100 a month.
Thanks,
Pat.

[OdGregg]

Hi There,

New here, and haven't cruised as yet (cruising Alaska starting Aug 26 :) )

I'd just like to point out, some of us come from countries that do not have a tipping culture. Here in Australia tipping is not very common at all, and is not expected anywhere really. If you do tip it is generally only for exceptionally helpful service.

It may be just because we have reasonable wages here.

I'm sure I'm going to find it a bit of a shock having to tip almost everyone while travelling in the US, and to some extent Europe. We're going on an 8 week round the world trip that we've been saving for for ages, and planning for ages and also on a tight budget.

I just wish they'd increase the cruise price by 10% and pay their staff more so that we would have known about the extra $10/day 10 months ago when we booked :o

Oh, and just a quick question... Are the automatic tips not counted as part of the employees income and therefore not taxed? In Australia that would probably be counted as a tax dodge :)

Cheers,
Richard

[Lithium]

Just my humble opinion, but I hate the idea of adding the tips on and making it mandatory. A tip is something given for great service. When its made mandatory or a service charge, it defeats the whole purpose and leaves no motivation for the employee to provide great service. And it no longer becomes a tip. In the end, he/she will get paid the same either way. I agree that people should be tipped, but according to the service they have given, not according to what the cruise line thinks you should pay. Having cruised on NCL lately, I was very disappointed with the service as it was nothing compared to cruises where tips were voluntary. Maybe this isn't a direct reflection of the tipping policy and maybe my case was unique, but it still doesn't change my mind that once its mandatory its no longer a tip.

What I think would be a good compromise is for the cruise line to publish expectations on exactly what is expected from the service on ship. That way we would expect certain things and not other things. Part of the problem is the service varies so much from ship to ship and cruise line to cruise line...heck, even person to person, that it is very inconsistent. Given this, its hard for me to swallow that tips will be consistent across the board. It would be nice to see exactly what our steward, waiter etc etc should be doing and when. Then I can see giving a standard service charge to them for services rendered.

Unfortunately, I am starting to see a trend in the cruise line business. Cruise lines are trying to cut corners and save money anywhere they can. What this means is that in the end, the customers are the ones that usually will suffer.

[KAKcruiser]

I continue to believe that tips are up to the individual. Some people are generous and tip a lot. Others are not so generous and tip very little. It is still their money and their decision. The cruise lines should not be telling people what to tip and adding automatic gratuities, especially for the behind the scenes employees. The cruise lines should pay their employees what they are worth. If they need more money to pay them, they should charge more for the cruise.

[PrincessMelody]

Is it ok to give your steward and waiter and the other staff who took care of you a thank you card with the tip inside the card? We did that on our first cruise on the Maasdam...I brought along some nice cards and wrote a little note thanking them personally and added cash to the envelopes, then handed them to each and every person that helped us have an wonderful time. (Even the yum-yum guy!)

So I shouldn't do this anymore? I really enjoyed letting each person know how much I appreciated the excellent service they gave us.

Melody

[dakrewser]

I'd just like to point out, some of us come from countries that do not have a tipping culture. Here in Australia tipping is not very common at all,

True, but there is a service charge added to the bill, right?

[Kami's pal]

I continue to believe that tips are up to the individual. Some people are generous and tip a lot. Others are not so generous and tip very little. It is still their money and their decision. The cruise lines should not be telling people what to tip and adding automatic gratuities, especially for the behind the scenes employees. The cruise lines should pay their employees what they are worth. If they need more money to pay them, they should charge more for the cruise.

"especially for behind the scenes employees"

In June when I returned from cruise with HAL on Noordam, I reported my experience with this (then) very new policy. My message was very unpopular; in fact someone asked if I "protested too much". Perhaps that post is still on this board, or on Foder's.

I too was concerned with the behind the scenes staff, especially as we were told that this included the "highly trained kitchen staff" . I believe these are the chefs! Why are chefs needing part of a pool of gratuities? Are their wages so low that the only way HAL can keep them is to guarantee gratuity revenue? Also, since 30% (we WERE told exactly that by PA announcement on board the ship) is being divided among many behind the scenes staff, how do the supervisors know which crew person was so lax that customers did not want to tip? Are we to stiff everybody when the food isn't what we expect? Or do we tip anyway so that we can then add $ to the well earned gratuities we want to give to our dining and cabin stewards.
I too believe that HAL is using a sneaky strategy to coercive all customers into paying extra ($10.00 pppd, which is $280.00 per couple for 14 days), and then adding the usual gratuities $ to the very hard working crew, because HAL's leaflet titled "you need to know" warns that "dining and cabin stewards ARE REQUIRED TO TURN IN any tips they have received directly from those guests who have removed OR REDUCED the gratuities on their onboard accounts."

And I have heard from many reliable sources, including management staff on NOORDAM that gratuities ARE THE MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME for dining and cabin staff. They get room and board, medical and dental while on board, and $50 -100 per month. Their contract is 11 months, compared to 4 months for entertainment director. And they DO NOT receive, on HAL anymore, a full fare home if they work the full trem. I was told (by one of the crew that came on a tour with us) that 1/12 of their fare is deducted from the revenues in the pooled gratuities.

So I say again, mandatory (as in NCL) or automatic gratuities that may not be altered without punishing an entire crew are not gratuities. They are an extra charge because HAL is raising revenue by removing $ from some crew to pay others.

[OdGregg]

True, but there is a service charge added to the bill, right?No. No service charge. The only charge I've seen on a restaurant bill is corkage, and even that's generally only 50c or $1 per person. Oh, sorry, sometimes there can be an extra charge for public holidays (as staff get paid higher rates on public holidays).

Cheers,

Richard

[Globaliser]

The "European" theory really isn't valid either. Many, if not most, European restaurants add a service charge to the bill so why would adding the $10/day be any different.Actually, few European restaurants "add" a service charge in any real sense of the word. You are presented with a menu with prices that already include service, and the bill total already includes service. Nothing extra is added on in addition to the price on the menu, and you are not required or expected to leave a tip.

This is a real cultural reason why Europeans often simply don't expect to have to pay anything in addition to the posted price for an item, and are offended by the idea that they are expected to put their hands in their pockets and pay more than the agreed price. You can see why, from this perspective, it can look like extortion or bribery - and why there is such reluctance to do it.

The big exception to this is here in the UK, where we have an unholy mixture of added service charges (ie a specific 10%-20% added to the bill on top of the menu price) and "service not included" (ie you are expected to tip about 10%), with the very occasional example of the European system.

The European system also shows why the idea that a tipping system is necessary to secure good service is a complete fallacy. Some of the best restaurant service in the world is provided by staff who do not expect to see any tips. If they're being paid properly, professionalism routinely produces good service.

The same could work well for cruise lines - although not if the crew don't get paid properly by the line.

Personally, I prefer the New Zealand system: In many restaurants, I was warned, don't even try to tip - you will cause offence if you do. :)

[Kami's pal]

"The European system also shows why the idea that a tipping system is necessary to secure good service is a complete fallacy. Some of the best restaurant service in the world is provided by staff who do not expect to see any tips. If they're being paid properly, professionalism routinely produces good service."

I didn't know that. I assume they are more amused than offended by North Americans who routinely leave tips.

"The same could work well for cruise lines - although not if the crew don't get paid properly by the line"

EXACTLY! Well said.

[Sue's Mom]

Globaliser hit it on the head so far as Europeans and UKers are concerned. DH and I have been to the US more than enough times to accept tipping as a way of life. But one couple who we are cruising with are most uncomfortable with tipping (other than the 10% which we usually leave in restaurants). It seems to me that the better they know the person who performs the service the more relaxed they are about tipping. Don't really understand them myself but - each to his own. However, the couple do know about the 10% and I am sure that they won't be removing it!

[Globaliser]

I assume they are more amused than offended by North Americans who routinely leave tips.I think European restaurant staff are more than just amused - they're laughing all the way to the bank! (Kiwis are a different kettle of fish, as they have a strong tradition of egalitarianism that is often genuinely offended by the idea that their hard work can be bought with tips.)

[trubey]

On our May Westerdam cruise, Cruise Director Gary Walker, a Brit who now lives in Fla., announced from the stage that most of those who eliminated the auto-tip were Europeans.

There were pax holding passports from 38 nations on our cruise. More than half of the pax were non-U.S. passport holders.

Perhaps, in some cases, it's a cultural thing?

Indeed it is! Where we live in Europe, tax and gratuity are ALWAYS included in the price the customer sees. I find this very comforting, as there are no little 30% surprises at the end of your meal, your $17,000 car does not cost $19,000, and your new CD player actually IS $49.95.

I don't know whether this is the law or just custom, but I wish it were the same everywhere!

Lane

[jazzsea]

Holland America has several ways to add the "tips" to the price of the cruise. They can't legally add to the port charges but they could add it to the Government Taxes and Fees which are listed as "non discountable fees". TAs do not make commission on port charges or the "non discountable fees".

Holland America could also add the "tips" as a service charge in addition to the above charges.

It will happen eventually in one form or another.

[98Charlie]

saltydog28 - Regarding my comment that tipped staff makes less than $100 per month: I failed to finish the sentence with "in pay from the cruise lines".

Over the course of my time on the boards and from employees on various cruise lines I have understood that the stewards and wait team earn very little in base pay from the cruise lines. The figure most often stated on the CC boards is actually $50.

I have no hard figures from any definitive source. Employees and management are very reluctant to say anything about the pay system. The closest I've seen to a first hand account of base pay was posted by a CCer that married a crew member. Her's was a $50 quote.

The crew does receive room and board. On some lines they have to purchase some of their uniform.

But: (ascending to the soap box again)
The reality is that you, the passenger, are hiring employees for the length of your cruise. You are free to pay them as you see fit.

For a combined $10 per day they will clean your room, make your bed, pick up & deliver your laundry, turn down your bed, remove the dishes from room service, wait on you like royalty at dinner, have your beverage waiting at your seat when you arrive, suggest foods to try, bring both entrees when you can't decide, brush the crumbs from the table, etc. etc. etc. all with a smile and knowing that some will not pay them a penny.

For these, your employees for the cruise: It's not a tip. It's not a gratuity. It is indeed their pay.

Thank you for your kind attention,

Charlie (stepping down once again)

[divinggirl]

! (Kiwis are a different kettle of fish, as they have a strong tradition of egalitarianism that is often genuinely offended by the idea that their hard work can be bought with tips.)

How true!! When we were in NZ, it was actually nice to pay what was on the bill. Ironically, we had a server from Baltimore in NZ (unbelievable) and I asked her how it was better than home, and she said they make more $ so she doesn't miss the tips. The only time I wanted to tip was my divemasters, and was only successful in tipping one young guy who spent an entire day driving just the two of us all over the country to dive. After much pleading, I was able to get him to accept some $, but not until after invoking the "grab yourself a beer and some dinner on us" line. Sometimes a tip is earned and warranted even when it' s not expected, and sometimes expected when unwarranted!!

[Krazy Kruizers]

When we were on the Maasdam in May and this new automatic tipping policy went into affect, those passengers who decided to opt out of this auto tip were given a form to complete and then they received a "form" letter from the captain.

Has this been stopped?

It is sad that so many people are opting to have that automatic tipping removed and you can bet many of them still give anyone a tip.

[JohnR49er]

Just another example in the "dumbing" down of the traditional cruise. They needed to fill all the rooms and I guess they are. Am I a snob? Well I probably am. I could go to a resort amd spend my time with the National Lampoon vacationers, and thats what cruising seems to be turning into.

Fire Away !!!!!!!!!!

[98Charlie]

JohnR49er

Nothing to fire at. It is change, change is inevitable. Businesses find a need and fill that need for a profit. If, to be profitable, they must include tips or impose a service charge that is what will happen.

If there is a line that doesn't, and they can still make a profit, they will stay in business and passengers that feel the same as you will pay their money and enjoy their cruise.

With 2000 passengers on board (plus or minus) we have always found others that share common interests and some that we would not care to associate with. I'm sure there are those who would not care to share time with DW & I. We are all snob's in our own way.

[lipoppop]

If HAL would increase the cost of the cruise via a tax, increase of the basic charge or whatever, and pay the staff a satisfactory wage they could put this thing to bed permanently.

Some high prices cruise lines are very specific that tips are included.

From the posts I don't see anything that is 100% clear on how much the cabin/wait staff earns. A $50 per month is mentioned but no definitive basis is given. Whatever it is I don't think it is enough, including tips that were given in the past because so many people stiffed the staff. Whether the $10/day increased thier total package is also unclear although I heard, no good source given, that there is an increase. Offset by the new policy of charging air fare no doubt.

I also wonder if there is a difference in what the Indonesian/ Filipno staff gets paid as compared to the European Pinacle staff. :confused:

[saltydog28]

98Charlie- Someone on the boards mentioned that the crew was unionized, and that they belonged to the Transport Workers Federation. I looked that up.
...I think I am reading this correctly, but I could be wrong. According to the Miami guidelines-Appendix1-2003-your average waiter/steward makes $941 US a month.
..Granted, it's not alot. But it is considerably more than $50-$100 a month.
..As for them cleaning my room- making my bed-etc..etc..
..Isn't that what I paid for when I paid my fare?
Devils advocate,
Pat.

[Kami's pal]

98Charlie- Someone on the boards mentioned that the crew was unionized, and that they belonged to the Transport Workers Federation. I looked that up.
...I think I am reading this correctly, but I could be wrong. According to the Miami guidelines-Appendix1-2003-your average waiter/steward makes $941 US a month.
..Granted, it's not alot. But it is considerably more than $50-$100 a month.
..As for them cleaning my room- making my bed-etc..etc..
..Isn't that what I paid for when I paid my fare?
Devils advocate,
Pat.
Devil's Advocate:
Good idea. However, Who does Transport Workers Federation represent?

Please re read my post.

Also, I saw on PBS Spokane, an old segment of a show similar to "Back to the Floor." The venue was a cruise ship. I watched with interest as the CEO tried to do the duties of the cabin steward. And had reaffirmed that the salary of the cabin and wait staff is not enough to live on. They depend on the gratuities, even for the lowered standard of living in their homelands.
I wonder if that wage you quote is assigning $ value to room and board? Doesn't matter. If it's an American Union it only applies to American workers on American line companies.
These ships, except Pride of Aloha, (and we all know how that's turned out!) are not registered in USA so the crew do not receive the minimum wages required under American law. The crew basically are at the mercy of the cruise line with which they sign. So unless the union you quoted is regulated in the country of ship's registration, it doesn't represent the crew from a foreign ship.

[jhannah]

Ignore.

[KAKcruiser]

I totally agree. I paid for the staff services when I purchased my cruise. I do not expect to chip in for fuel or paint or replacement of carpet. I also do not expect to chip in for employees wages. I do not wish to be made to feel guilty because employees are not earning enough money. Any person who accepts a job does so with his own free will. The crew could be back in Indonesia probably making about 1/50th what they make on the cruise ship. I will tip for good service but I do not want to be forced to pay a set amount.

[KAKcruiser]

I wanted to say that I agreed with Salty Dog but my message was posted a couple down.

[dakrewser]

No. No service charge.
We did see a seperate line for service charge occasionally when we were in Sydney last spring. And we were told (by local, even) that "good service" in a restaurant was usually rewarded by a 10-15% gratuity....

[dakrewser]

saltydog28 - Regarding my comment that tipped staff makes less than $100 per month: I failed to finish the sentence with "in pay from the cruise lines".

What any crew member makes is between them and the cruise line - no one held a gun to their head when they signed the contract. Its not my responsibility to supplement their salary in order that they simply do their job.

I pay the cruise line a couple of thousand bucks (as does my wife) to "hire" the services of the crew. Should some members of the crew go "above and beyond", then I will generously reward them, as well as telling their bosses about the crew member's efforts. I resent being told how much, and to whom, gratuities should be extended.

I also dislike utility-like bills which contain myriads of seperate, broken out line-items which are invariable. Roll it up into one price, tell me up front what that price is.

[dakrewser]

Ironically, we had a server from Baltimore in NZ (unbelievable)
Was that in Bay of Islands? Or are there lots of ex-Marylanders waiting tables in NZ :) ?

[dakrewser]

Doesn't matter. If it's an American Union it only applies to American workers on American line companies.
No, it applies to all of the workers working for companies with a union contract - the union doesn't give a fig about members' nationality.

[trubey]

This all reminds me of an argument I had with my boss once, about whether to sign up for the American Express Platinum card, for which we had both had invitations. My thought was, "Why bother to impress a waiter AFTER you've finished your meal?"

I like the idea of a 'suggested gratuity', because otherwise I wouldn't have the foggiest notion. I think people tip WAY too much because they don't want to be seen as cheapskates -- and HAL has solved this for me. If they say it's the proper gratuity for 'excellent service', so be it.

Lane

[bobpatj]

Sad, sad, sad. Our dining room steward told us how much he likes the new system and how much more he's able to make. $10 a day per person comes out to less than what we've tipped in the past, so for our special stewards and servers, they got an extra "thank you" on the last night of the cruise.

[saltydog28]

Kami's pal-- From what I understand the Transport Workers Federation represents men and women from all over the world. They have a very extensive website. The room and board is not part of their wages.
Pat.

[Kami's pal]

Kami's pal-- From what I understand the Transport Workers Federation represents men and women from all over the world. They have a very extensive website. The room and board is not part of their wages.
Pat.

Thank you. That would be most reassuring, if your understanding is correct.

[ekerr19]

98Charlie- Someone on the boards mentioned that the crew was unionized, and that they belonged to the Transport Workers Federation. I looked that up.
...I think I am reading this correctly, but I could be wrong. According to the Miami guidelines-Appendix1-2003-your average waiter/steward makes $941 US a month.
..Granted, it's not alot. But it is considerably more than $50-$100 a month.
..As for them cleaning my room- making my bed-etc..etc..
..Isn't that what I paid for when I paid my fare?
Devils advocate,
Pat.

Of the many crew members we've gotten to know over the years, we've found the average wage in US dollars to be about $150 per month. They are allowed to keep about $50 (and their tips) and the rest is required to be sent home. We have been told this by more than just one or two crew members. Most of these are waiters and waitresses. My understanding is barstaff (especially senior) do make more. This is just what we've been told over the years, I have no factual basis to back it up, other than it has been fairly consistent in each instance we were told of.

Also, even at $941 a month - given the number of hours the staff are REQUIRED to work (I think it is a minimum of 11 hours per day), sometimes with only a half day off per week, still works out to be less than $3.50 per hour - a shame, IMO. Keep in mind, the crew are not governed by U.S. Wage and Hour laws.

Removing the auto-tip is just plain CHEAP, there are no other words. I agree with Jacqueline and everyone else who is appalled that someone can spend so much on a vacation (especially to Europe) then complain about a $10 per day tip for the hard working staff, it's ludicrous!

Stay home if you can't pay, for crying out loud. :mad:

[saltydog28]

ekerr19- Stay home if you can't pay?......If we couldn't pay, we would be staying home.....But my husband works 12hr days so we can have nice vacations. And he NEVER takes a tip, because it would be called a BRIB. And he could lose his job and his pension. He knew that before he was hired.
..The crew members are not indentured servents, so how can you say they are ALLOWED to keep $50.
..What I read is that they could send home up to 80% of their pay. So that would leave them with $188.
You say you have no factual bases for your comments. I have given you the name of a website where I got my information. And I have to surmize from your statements that you did not look it up. If you have any other websites or information that would dispute what I have, could you please pass it on.
..Life is an ongoing learning process. And I like to have the facts, not just hearsay.
Finally..I am not complaining about $10. a day per person. I am complaining about the fact that I'm being told how much to tip-who they are giving the tip money to-I have no say in the matter-and if I remove it from my account, I have to give them an explaination why it was removed.
Pat.

[lknick]

Also, even at $941 a month - given the number of hours the staff are REQUIRED to work (I think it is a minimum of 11 hours per day), sometimes with only a half day off per week, still works out to be less than $3.50 per hour - a shame, IMO. Keep in mind, the crew are not governed by U.S. Wage and Hour laws.What I am seeing the additude so well expressed by Teddy Roosevelt over a 100 years ago. It is the white man's burden to help our little brown brothers. Just as so many exclaim [when it comes to dress] "but this is 2004" [like the number has a magical significance], why can't we understand that these employees are well represented, are not forced into bondage and many have worked for HAL for over 30 years...signing contract after contract.

To remove a service charge is mean-spirited without a doubt. But to believe HAL's hotel employees need the cruising public's support is not valid.

Standing ready to be flamed, I can identify that most hotel employees do make in the range of US$30,000 [or more] per 12 month contract. According to the Census of Manufacturing, the average compensation for U.S. based employees is $US35,000 [which does not provide room and board.]

BTW, employees in the UK, France, Germany....ad nauseum...are not covered by "U.S. Wage and Hour laws" either. What about the poor Alpine farmer who produced the cheese you so love or the Thai seamstress who sewed your clothing.

[ekerr19]

I expressed my opinion based upon conversations we've had over not just one or two cruises - but many.

Saltydog - I don't think anyone was talking about your husband taking a tip? I sure wasn't referring to him... I don't think I know what you are talking about... Bribes? You missed me, sorry.

Iknick- Your opinions on labor and the work force are well known and I respect them. Sorry, but even $30K a year hardly constitutes "high living" - I'd also like to know what the source of the $30K is... sure no one forces anyone to sign a contract, but you know how I feel - we've had this conversation (about labor) in other threads... :)

To the both of you - I stated "I have no factual basis - just conversations with crew" and yet I am flamed - oh well.

Iknick - one thing we do agree on is to remove the auto-tip is mean-spirited. IMO, it is also cheap and I will stand by that. To me, $10 per person, per day doesn't even begin to cover it. :)

Iknick - I liked your other Avatar better - nice picture of you in your tux! :)

[OdGregg]

We did see a seperate line for service charge occasionally when we were in Sydney last spring. And we were told (by local, even) that "good service" in a restaurant was usually rewarded by a 10-15% gratuity....
Ah, well that's Sydney which has probably been more "Americanised" than any other city in Australia. I guess I can only speak from local experience down here in Tassie other than an occasional visit to Sydney or Melbourne. :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Richard

[dakrewser]

Ah, well that's Sydney which has probably been more "Americanised" than any other city in Australia. I guess I can only speak from local experience down here in Tassie other than an occasional visit to Sydney or Melbourne. :rolleyes:
I didn't realize you'd actually started using money in Tasmania - thought everything was still on a barter basis! :rolleyes:

[saltydog28]

ekerr19- It's a shamed you missed my point-oh well.
..You say that we flamed you. I've read these posts over and over. I can't find where you were flamed....Disagreement is not flaming. And I haven't read any name-calling. So where are the flames?
Pat.

[ekerr19]

ekerr19- It's a shamed you missed my point-oh well.
..You say that we flamed you. I've read these posts over and over. I can't find where you were flamed....Disagreement is not flaming. And I haven't read any name-calling. So where are the flames?
Pat.

Pat-

My point was that I had no factual evidence, just what I've been told by various crew members - you seemed to have an issue with that. I meant no offense to you. :)

I am known to several posters on these boards for my "liberal" stance on labor views. I don't mind arguing my point - I do stand behind it.

Sorry if I mis-interpreted your post. :)

[OdGregg]

I didn't realize you'd actually started using money in Tasmania - thought everything was still on a barter basis! :rolleyes:
Oh, we're talking about money are we? I think I've heard of it... :-P

[OdGregg]

Removing the auto-tip is just plain CHEAP, there are no other words. I agree with Jacqueline and everyone else who is appalled that someone can spend so much on a vacation (especially to Europe) then complain about a $10 per day tip for the hard working staff, it's ludicrous!

Stay home if you can't pay, for crying out loud. :mad:
So your saying if you haven't got buckets of money, don't bother travelling and ESPECIALLY don't go cruising?

Sounds a bit elitest to me. :p

My wife and I are on reasonable incomes and have been scrimping and saving every thing we can (or bartering for it :D ) for quite some time. We'll be the first members of either of our families to go on a cruise. I hope it's enjoyable. It's definitely a step up from last time I went to Europe (been 3 times already). Budget last time was $8000 AUD (about $5000 US at the time) and that was for 4.5 months including $2500 airfare and buying a car.

We'll probably leave the $10pppd on there, but I'd definitely prefer it to be included in the upfront cost....

"Cruise from $1500 per person*"

"*plus $500 taxes, plus $70 'tips' because we won't even wait for you to decide that our service is excellent"

I'd much prefer:

"Cruise from $2100 per person"

:D

Cheers,
Richard

[lknick]

Iknick- Your opinions on labor and the work force are well known and I respect them. Sorry, but even $30K a year hardly constitutes "high living" - I'd also like to know what the source of the $30K is... sure no one forces anyone to sign a contract, but you know how I feel - we've had this conversation (about labor) in other threads... :) Unfortunately, the references I rely upon have gone with the previous boards. As you rely upon anecdotal information, I will not debate with you.

Iknick - I liked your other Avatar better - nice picture of you in your tux! :)There will be a new Avatar every now and then. I am proud of the units I have served with, and that is one of the patches.

[ekerr19]

So your saying if you haven't got buckets of money, don't bother travelling and ESPECIALLY don't go cruising?

Sounds a bit elitest to me. :p

My wife and I are on reasonable incomes and have been scrimping and saving every thing we can (or bartering for it :D ) for quite some time. We'll be the first members of either of our families to go on a cruise. I hope it's enjoyable. It's definitely a step up from last time I went to Europe (been 3 times already). Budget last time was $8000 AUD (about $5000 US at the time) and that was for 4.5 months including $2500 airfare and buying a car.

We'll probably leave the $10pppd on there, but I'd definitely prefer it to be included in the upfront cost....

"Cruise from $1500 per person*"

"*plus $500 taxes, plus $70 'tips' because we won't even wait for you to decide that our service is excellent"

I'd much prefer:

"Cruise from $2100 per person"

:D

Cheers,
Richard

Richard-

Hardly elitist. I agree, it may be better up front but that is not the way it is. Jacqueline originally posted that people were removing it for no particular reason. To me, that is a shame and that is what I have a problem with - of course, everyone is entitled to do as they choose, but in my opinion to remove it for no reason is cheap.

If you have a problem or issue with the service - sure, by all means - but constructive criticism is much different than "no reason at all".

Again, sorry if I offended anyone. :)

[ekerr19]

Unfortunately, the references I rely upon have gone with the previous boards. As you rely upon anecdotal information, I will not debate with you.

There will be a new Avatar every now and then. I am proud of the units I have served with, and that is one of the patches.

No debate here, I was merely curious. This is a subject of interest to me, as you may know.

Avatar: I didn't realize that. I look forward to seeing them :)

[KAKcruiser]

I worked 10 hour days and longer for years. I also went to college at night for 8 years. I did this so I could have a nice retirement. Nobody gave me anything extra for no reason just because they felt sorry for me. So, I still don't understand why we are expected to supplement the crews salary.

[ekerr19]

I worked 10 hour days and longer for years. I also went to college at night for 8 years. I did this so I could have a nice retirement. Nobody gave me anything extra for no reason just because they felt sorry for me. So, I still don't understand why we are expected to supplement the crews salary.

You are not expected to. You can remove the auto-tip if you wish. It is a personal choice. Having been on a few HAL cruises, I can honestly say that I've never received sub-standard service, it has always been far above what we receive in many restaurants.

Just curious, but do you tip at a restaurant when you go out to eat? I tip my servers because they've provided me a service that I appreciate. My tip is reflective of that service. It is certainly not because I feel sorry for them.

Having worked 10+ hours for years while going to college (an accomplishment anyone should be proud of :) ) you probably understand how hard the crew works. :)

[dakrewser]

I'd much prefer:

"Cruise from $2100 per person"
I'll go along with that, you devil you :)

[OdGregg]

I'll go along with that, you devil you :)
Hehe.... very subtle....

Unfortunately there is some form of cancerous like disease spreading through the devil population down here. There is a lot of research going on to try and find a cure. I believe Warner Brothers may have made a sizable donation to the research earlier this year.

[ekerr19]

BTW, employees in the UK, France, Germany....ad nauseum...are not covered by "U.S. Wage and Hour laws" either. What about the poor Alpine farmer who produced the cheese you so love or the Thai seamstress who sewed your clothing.
I forgot to add - I am very selective about the goods and services I purchase for precisely this reason.

I mean no offense, Iknick I enjoy reading your posts... they are most enlightening and contain much interesting information.

You may think I am a "bleeding heart" and I probably am - and I won't change any sooner than you will :)

I will agree to disagree with you - any day of the week :D

[imsulin]

Cannot and will not ever understand tip-stiffers. It's just crass, crude, and classless behavior, IMO. I am proud to pre-pay tips, and then tip in cash during the course of my cruise as I deem. I enjoy tipping those who most likely never receive tips, as well as those who serve me. Melody - GREAT idea to personalize tips in the form of a note!

[diann744]

I'll be cruising for the first time in November and the tipping situation has me decidedly nervous. I've never held a job that relied on tips. Primarily because I see what these people go through and I know I could never do as good a job as so many of them do. One on one service is an amazingly hard, too often thankless job. For this reason, I tend to be a very good tipper.

The $10 per day doesn't bother me. What bothers me is knowing I will not be able to get up from a table without leaving behind my customary 20% gratuity for good service. Knowing the policy (and knowing that the waiter knows the policy) will not make it any easier for me to withhold my "thank yous" til the end of the trip.

So, I forsee paying $10 per day, tipping at the time of service and tipping an additional amount to those special servers at the end of the cruise. Anyone know where I can get a lucrative part-time job between now and November?

[lknick]

The whole system is broken.

Soon, when I buy a bottle of aspirin, instead of US$.99, the price tag will say: bottle US$.05, raw materials US$.05, labor costs US$.20, transportation US$.10 and the rest profit and mark-up.

Now, maybe I should take off the labor cost...and I'm not sure I need the bottle.

[sail7seas]

Totally off subject but previously referred to above.



lknick......For what unit is the badge avatar?

[lknick]

lknick......For what unit is the badge avatar?Military Airlift Command--Studies and Observation Group. By plan, few know of the group. SOG deals with irregular warfare and sabotage.

Yes, that's a death head wearing a baret in the center.

[Kami's pal]

I waited tables and depended on tips during my university days. I understood the system. As my skills improved I received better assignments (banguet room instead of cafeteria) and I learned to share my tips with whoever bussed my table so that together we were more efficient. But I never had to encourage the cooks or dishwashers so that they would also work harder.

Why are the gratuities being shared with the "highly trained kitchen staff" (from HAL"S leaflet 'you need to know')?

I do wish that could be explained.

[Globaliser]

I waited tables and depended on tips during my university days. I understood the system. As my skills improved I received better assignments (banguet room instead of cafeteria) and I learned to share my tips with whoever bussed my table so that together we were more efficient. But I never had to encourage the cooks or dishwashers so that they would also work harder.

Why are the gratuities being shared with the "highly trained kitchen staff" (from HAL"S leaflet 'you need to know')?

I do wish that could be explained.The reason is that for a long time now, "gratuities" on a ship have been nothing of the sort. They have become the primary way in which the crew are paid. But it's sort of contracted-out to the passengers, and partly voluntary - which is why there's been an increasing problem with the crew not getting paid as passengers use the voluntariness of the system to avoid paying altogether.

This is why I cannot for the life of me see why it really matters whether the crew are paid properly through the fare or through an automatic (but properly notified) service charge - so long as they are properly paid. (Clearly, the "gratuities" system no longer does so.) If the crew are properly paid, they will provide good service without a tipping incentive, as anyone who has spent any time in non-tipping countries will have seen.

But including service in the fare, and making it quite clear that the fare already includes everything that used to be paid for by tips and that there is no need to tip a single cent in addition once on board, is IMHO by far the more transparent and fair system.

I don't think there are any of the following types of people on this thread, but it seems to me from reading the many other threads on the topic that the following types of people have most difficulty with the concept of an all-inclusive price with no further tipping:- Those who are have tipping so deeply embedded in them culturally that they feel guilty if they are provided any service and then do not tip the provider, irrespective of however much they've already paid for the service. Those who prefer a tipping system as a way of evading payment. Those who like bribing staff with money to get better service than is provided to their fellow passengers - and indeed sometimes to get "service" which shouldn't really be provided to them at all. Those who like the feeling of power and superiority that comes with knowing they have more money than the poorly-paid and foreign staff, and with liberally dispensing that money to demonstrate their superiority.I have a lot of sympathy with the people in the first category - cultural habits are very hard to discard, wherever they come from and whatever they are. But they are the people who are most likely to be persuaded of the merits of an all-inclusive price.

And I have no sympathy whatever with any of the other three categories.

[joanagain]

jacqueline, i am so glad that you posted what you saw with your own eyes...on my first cruise, i heard a gentleman loudly declaring that HAL had misrepresented the tipping policy and in his mind..."not required"...meant "all included"...i admit that the tipping policy was confusing, but was always very well explained at the debarkation talks...

as i was a newbie, my dinner companions informed me of how tipping was actually handled...with small envelopes and so...my sister and i had fun, preparing our envelopes and distributing them to the staff members that we were conscious of their efforts to make our trip totally enjoyable, regardless of how little we had paid for the cruise.

on our last cruise, in particular, i wanted to say "thank you" to the yumyum man, who in addition to his evening duties, was always stationed (in his cape), to open the glass doors leading from the dining room to the deck...some people seemed not even notice that he had opened the door as they glided onto the deck.

it was not a great sum of money that i gave tohim, but i was very touched, when he came over to me before we left the ship, and he said "thank you" to me.

[KAKcruiser]

I just wanted to clarify that I am not protesting tipping. I am protesting the system that HAL has initiated. I liked it the old way. The new way sounds very complicated.

[Deepswim]

I have worked on Cruise ships and I know for a fact what the crew earns and has to go through. For that reason I do not mind giving these hard working people a tip. I will agree that it should be left to the person on how much you want to give. As for unions, they are few and far between on cruise ships. The rules that apply are what ever flag the ship is flying. That means that they will follow Panama, Bahama's rules and not USA.

I wonder if the price of the cruise went up $200+ to supply a good wage for their workers. Would people complain about that???????

[RevNeal]

The rules that apply are what ever flag the ship is flying. That means that they will follow Panama, Bahama's rules and not USA.


For the Holland America Line that would be the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

[lknick]

I have worked on Cruise ships and I know for a fact what the crew earns and has to go through. Would love to hear detailed experiences, job category, and YOUR perception of total compensation. As for unions, they are few and far between on cruise ships. In your experience, which cruise lines are unionized and which are not. I am only knowledgeable about HAL and their unions.
I wonder if the price of the cruise went up $200+ to supply a good wage for their workers. Would people complain about that???????People will complain about anything. It will only be accepted if ALL cruiselines adopted the same policy, something like pricing on airlines. Look at the threads about increased pricing for 2005 fares.

[Roboat]

Military Airlift Command--Studies and Observation Group. By plan, few know of the group. SOG deals with irregular warfare and sabotage.How do you rate the mamba on HAL, compared to other cruiselines? :D
(Old huey driver :cool:, supported MACV SOG 67-68)

[lknick]

Sorry, but having difficulty relating recon teams such as Mamba, Cobra and Viper to HAL.

[ekerr19]

I have worked on Cruise ships and I know for a fact what the crew earns and has to go through. For that reason I do not mind giving these hard working people a tip. I will agree that it should be left to the person on how much you want to give. As for unions, they are few and far between on cruise ships. The rules that apply are what ever flag the ship is flying. That means that they will follow Panama, Bahama's rules and not USA.

I wonder if the price of the cruise went up $200+ to supply a good wage for their workers. Would people complain about that???????
Deepswim-

I too, would be very interested in your observations. I believe the crew works very hard for little compensation. I also do not believe they are represented by unions. I may be wrong, but I've yet to have any HAL crew member (I'm talking the Indonesian and Filipino crew - and not officers) tell me they are represented by labor unions. I also had the same impression as far as the registry of the ship being the indicator as to what laws apply.

[dakrewser]

I believe the crew works very hard for little compensation. I also do not believe they are represented by unions. I may be wrong, but I've yet to have any HAL crew member (I'm talking the Indonesian and Filipino crew - and not officers) tell me they are represented by labor unions. I also had the same impression as far as the registry of the ship being the indicator as to what laws apply.
You are wrong. See the "benefits (http://www.hollandamerica.com/pdfs/media/factsheets/CrewBenefits_FactSheet.pdf)" document at the HAL site. Not only is the crew unionized, but HAL pays the union dues. As to what they tell you, I've always found that most service personnel will tell you what you want to hear. Its just one more way of insuring bigger tips.

Then there's this whole "...works very hard for little compensation..." which others (not only you) have mentioned. These aren't indentured servants we're talking about, but free men and women who voluntarily sign the contracts. Many of whom sign on year after year. Unless they're all Mother Theresa's in disguise one has to assume they feel adequately compensated - or they'd look for a different line of work. It may be that the training is compensation enough (like a hospital intern) because it presages better remuneration later on, but that's still part of the compensation.

[Jacqueline]

Forgive me for starting this thread. It always ends the same way....

[Deepswim]

The position I held was an IT administrator on the ship. This was considered an Officer position so I had a lot more freedom than those in the service side of the organization. A lot of people cannot imagine what it is like to work 7days a week 24 hours a day. Yes, there are times when you can get away and relax. This does not mean that it will be a full day off.; this goes on for your whole contract. Days begin to blur and time starts to mean nothing. You live work and eat with your fellow crew members. It is very important to get along. The last thing you want is to be in a hostile situation for days on end. Living is tight quarters; people will know more about you that sometimes you are willing to share. If you are lucky tight friendships form. This is your support group when things get long and troublesome.



Yes, there are perks for the crew. Room and board is supplied. For some they are living up to 4 in a room sharing bathrooms. There are special areas in the ship that are just for the crew. A lot were not allowed up on passenger decks unless they are on duty so those few areas are worth their weight in gold. On the line that I worked for they also set up special events and outing for us to participate in. They supplied training and classes to improve skills for crew members.



I worked on the ships for 2 years. During that time I saw members treated so badly that they were in complete tears. I worked through sleep deprivation, being away from my family, home and friends. If you are unlucky and you stay on a ship with a set itinerary it begins to get quite boring seeing the same places over and over again. I began to miss simple things most people take for granted. Living in a 10X10 room for months on end is not all that much fun, daily news of your friends back home or even the world, food that is of your choosing, finally day(s) off that you do not have anything to worry about.

[Roboat]

Then there's this whole "...works very hard for little compensation..." which others (not only you) have mentioned. These aren't indentured servants we're talking about, but free men and women who voluntarily sign the contracts. Many of whom sign on year after year. Unless they're all Mother Theresa's in disguise one has to assume they feel adequately compensated - or they'd look for a different line of work. It may be that the training is compensation enough (like a hospital intern) because it presages better remuneration later on, but that's still part of the compensation.
I couldn't agree more. Others who work very hard includes the clerk at 7/11 and Burger King, your kids' teachers, and the guys who paved your roads. And they don't get room and board. I'm not saying it's a dream job, but I would bet there is a lot of competition for cruise service jobs. Must be a reason.

I really liked Globalizer's post above, too.

I would hope that HAL and other lines continue the migration to "mandatory tipping". This is not a lot different than the policy some restaurants have stating that "15% service charge will be added to parties of six or more." which has been generally understood and accepted in the U.S.

[petermccue]

While I can't imagine doing the cruise line job for two years straight, I can and have done the work 24 hours a day 7 days a week thing before. For six summers I was a camp counselor then riding director for a well known summer camp. We lived four/five staff to a room, on call for whatever might happen, for rather meager pay. It's not a job for everyone, that's for sure. And we had no possibility of tips either, as they were against the camp's philosophy. No AC either, nor TV or smoking on the premises.

The first summer I worked there, I worked for three months straight, with five full days off scattered through that period. My princely salary was $950 for the three months (this was in 1988). The last year I worked there, when I worked three and a half months, and was responsible for 30 horses and probably 100 or so campers a day riding under me, I made $2200 for the whole time.

Like I've heard from many cruise ship workers, you either love it or you leave it.

As far as tipping, I'm pretty easy and go with what the cruise line tells me I should do (shrugs). I tend to tip in resturants, but I've been known to stiff waitstaff if they give horrid service. I tip my hairdresser, but that's because my hair is long and thick and coloring it a pain. I've pretty much quit doing curbside checkin for airlines, but if I use it, I tip. It's a cultural thing for Americans, the tipping. It's hard to say if we get better service because we do or not. Not having spent much time outside North America (yet) it's hard for me to compare.

Like a lot of things in life, it's all in what you're used to. I'm used to tipping and adding the taxes to my costs when I shop, so that seems normal to me. I find the concept of bartering in the Middle East or Mexico hard for me to grasp, that's harder to understand than the concept of the service charge and taxes being added in, at least for me.

V

[ekerr19]

A tip is not a tip if it is mandatory. It is a service charge. Plain and simple.

I am just interested in hearing FIRST HAND (from crew), not necessarily from HAL's web-site how it really is - I guess it's just asking too much.

OK - I am WRONG, as it has been pointed out to me. By someone I'm sure who knows. Is it so hard to just say you disagree with me? I guess so.

I will leave this thread to those of you who KNOW.

Jacqueline, I'm glad you started the thread, don't feel bad - I still have a problem with people removing the auto-tip for no reason. As Iknick pointed out, it is mean-spirited.

dave - I checked out the link you provided - granted I've not seen it before, but I think it may be dated as HAL is no longer paying RT air for the crew, the crew is also required to pay for their uniforms now, but interesting none the less, thank you for providing it.

To everyone - I'm just trying to find out some information here, not get into a debate over working conditions on cruise ship, in the US or anywhere else. I'm also not pointing fingers at anyone, for heaven's sake... lighten up :)

[lknick]

I am just interested in hearing FIRST HAND (from crew), not necessarily from HAL's web-site how it really is - I guess it's just asking too much. Agreed, information from a HAL crew member may be of interest…but…but…Deepswim intentionally avoided telling us what line he/she worked for.

What I see is a disgruntled employee. A lot of people cannot imagine what it is like to work 7days a week 24 hours a day. Yes, there are times when you can get away and relax. This does not mean that it will be a full day off.; this goes on for your whole contract. Days begin to blur and time starts to mean nothing. Oh, I can react fully with examples, but no need to bore you. If you are unlucky and you stay on a ship with a set itinerary it begins to get quite boring seeing the same places over and over again. That’s why they call it work, not vacation.

But what about pay scales for the hotel staff. That is the topic of the enquiry.

It all comes down to two things: 1/the crew is not my burden and 2/If it’s so bad, why do so many sign up for more than one contract?

Now, nothing can do anything about beliefs…as Pope Gregory found out at the Council of Worms with Martin Luther. As long as you are willing to say “Here I stand,” there you stand and absolutely nothing will make a difference.

[Kami's pal]

Globilzer
So, I was correct in thinking that the new (i.e. pooling tips) policy (May, 2004) was a way of insuring the increase of salaries for some behind the scenes staff such as chefs even though that probably would decrease the salaries of some waiters and cabin staff?
Seems a convoluted way to increase salaries. Yes, I would prefer $200 increase in fares, rather than this method.
Yes, I have voted with my checkbook. No more HAL for me.

Jacqueline, No need to apologize. Your observations were pertinent and valuable to those of us who want to travel ethically, yet not be stiffed ourselves. Those who don't want your views, or to read this discussion will skip, skim or scan.

Deepswim,
Your experience was not as a dining or cabin steward, but can you remember how your remuneration differed from theirs? E.g. were the wages substantially different because you couldn't expect revenue from gratuities? And if so, did you get a read on how much better or worse it was, besides the obvious, i.e. you were assured of a certain net income.

[The_Hall_Monitor]

I am just interested in hearing FIRST HAND (from crew), not necessarily from HAL's web-site how it really is ...To everyone - I'm just trying to find out some information here...Based on conversations with crew members on various HAL ships, I've gotten the impression that most of the cruiseline staff comes from Manila. It seems the ones living in rural areas tend to stay home and manage in a rural agricultural society.

And, it goes without saying that I can't speak for the entire crew but several have told me that jobs are scarce in Manila and wages are very low (like $90/month for a school teacher). My point is: they've chosen to be employed on HAL, even though it keeps them away from from home for long periods. They are quite willing to make the trade-off to provide a better standard of living for their family.

I would refer you to the following webpage (a Chamber-of-Commerce kind of thing), trying to attract investment in the Asian countries (so it follows they'll put the best face possible on their statistics). http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/asiacities/manila.html

Note the average household income in Manila is in the US Dollar $6K to $9K range.

I think it's pretty well agreed here that crew members make at least US$20K working on a ship. Some say US$35K to US$40K -- but who's counting?

At the absolute bottom figure of US$20K, that crew member's household is three or four times more affluent than their neighbor who works at Manila City Hall (or wherever). Comparatively speaking, the crew member's family lives in princely fashion.

None of which has anything to do with whether, how much or in what form tips should be awarded. I, for one, would rather $10/day be merged into the price of a cruise so I'd know up front it was there and then I could either book the cruise or not.

But that's just my take on it....

[RevNeal]

Based on conversations with crew members on various HAL ships, I've gotten the impression that most of the cruiseline staff comes from Manila. It seems the ones living in rural areas tend to stay home and manage in a rural agricultural society.

On HAL, the beverage services are from the Philippines. The dining room staff and cabin stewards are from Indonesia.

[lknick]

Rev, your post was unkind as in my mind it only serves to put down the poster. And in what way did your factual correction change the point?

[The_Hall_Monitor]

I stand corrected.

I have not had these conversations with the dining room staff or cabin stewards. To hold them up for a thoughtful conversation about family, wages, work conditions would cause them a problem in accomplishing their duties.


I have, however, talked about these matters with a good many servers on the Lido at various times of day and in the Ocean Bar during quiet hours when I might go in for a Coke and place to read.

[jhannah]

Rev, your post was unkind as in my mind it only serves to put down the poster. And in what way did your factual correction change the point?I fail to see how the post was unkind whatsoever. It was simply providing factual information. Aren't we all better off with facts than with speculations?

[Jacqueline]

"Yes, there are perks for the crew. Room and board is supplied. For some they are living up to 4 in a room sharing bathrooms. There are special areas in the ship that are just for the crew. A lot were not allowed up on passenger decks unless they are on duty so those few areas are worth their weight in gold. On the line that I worked for they also set up special events and outing for us to participate in. They supplied training and classes to improve skills for crew members. "

I have had waiters that have been onboard ships for 15 years- anyone who signs up for that many contracts likes the life onboard. The last fellow commented that he missed the old days when there were a whole lot of guys in a *dorm* rather than the two men to the room which they have now. He said there was always a story to hear or a joke being told.
Honestly there are many career choices that involve the same or worse basic conditions- like being in Iraq in a tent. Or in a submarine.
I wonder how the teachers who live in the dorms at the prep schools handle it. I bet they make less.

"I worked on the ships for 2 years. During that time I saw members treated so badly that they were in complete tears. I worked through sleep deprivation, being away from my family, home and friends. If you are unlucky and you stay on a ship with a set itinerary it begins to get quite boring seeing the same places over and over again. I began to miss simple things most people take for granted. Living in a 10X10 room for months on end is not all that much fun, daily news of your friends back home or even the world, food that is of your choosing, finally day(s) off that you do not have anything to worry about."

Again this is a lifestyle choice (and it is a choice, slavery is against the law in most places in the world and on all cruiseships) that is not for everyone- but there those who thrive on it.
I have worked plently of jobs in my life where people have been reduced to tears and worked day and night ! In fact this sounds a lot like my husbands law firm....

[lknick]

I fail to see how the post was unkind whatsoever. It was simply providing factual information. Aren't we all better off with facts than with speculations?IMO, by simply calling the posters facts into question...and she was deficient...he is simply saying 'in that your facts are wrong, your post is without merit.'

Just as I quarried Rev as to how the change in facts revises the conclusion, tell me how the clarification revised the conclusions.

[RevNeal]

Rev, your post was unkind as in my mind it only serves to put down the poster. And in what way did your factual correction change the point?

Huh?
What did I say that "put down" anyone?

[RevNeal]

Just as I quarried Rev as to how the change in facts revises the conclusion, tell me how the clarification revised the conclusions.

I didn't claim that it revised any conclusion at all. I just stated that there are staff members on HAL that are not from the Philippines. Nothing "unkind" was intended or implied in my statement. I'm sorry if you think that I was unkind.

[RevNeal]

IMO, by simply calling the posters facts into question...and she was deficient...he is simply saying 'in that your facts are wrong, your post is without merit.'

You've read far more into my post than was there. I was simply offering a correction on a single detail. I wasn't addressing anything else in the post. That USUALLY means I otherwise agree with the content ... and certainly not the accusation which you put into my hands.

I'm sorry that you think I was being unkind or was stating that a post was without merit. Such was not the case.

[RevNeal]

Dear The_Hall_Monitor,

Please know that I was not, in any way, addressing anything in your post other than the statement regarding the nationality of cruisestaff personnel. The substance of your post was, otherwise, unaddressed by me and, indeed, stands quite well even considering the various nationalities of the ship's staff.

I'm sorry if my point was taken in an unkind way. No unkindness was intended or, in my opinion, implied.

Grace and Peace,

[cactuslady]

Rev--
Sounds like the chisels and pickaxes are starting to hurt from you being quarried so much. ;)

[RevNeal]

Sounds like the chisels and pickaxes are starting to hurt from you being quarried so much. ;)

LOL
Indubitably!

[Globaliser]

Globilzer
So, I was correct in thinking that the new (i.e. pooling tips) policy (May, 2004) was a way of insuring the increase of salaries for some behind the scenes staff such as chefs even though that probably would decrease the salaries of some waiters and cabin staff?
Seems a convoluted way to increase salaries. Yes, I would prefer $200 increase in fares, rather than this method.
Yes, I have voted with my checkbook. No more HAL for me.I think this may be jumping to conclusions.

What I think we don't know is whether, under the old system, people's voluntary tips reached $10 per day or whether so many people regarded tipping as optional that not that much was, on average, handed over despite the efforts of those who adhered to conventional levels of tipping and those who tipped beyond those amounts.

I think we also don't know how much tip sharing went on behind the scenes under the old system. Neither do I think we know whether and how much base salaries have been adjusted on the introduction of this new system to allow for the changes and the announced pooling arrangements.

But what I do know is that if I am supposed to pay the crew $10 per day after I get on board, I really do not care one jot whether it's an automatic tip collected on my shipboard account or a service charge collected on my shipboard account.

[The_Hall_Monitor]

Well .....

Getting back to the point I was trying to make -- that crew members (of both nationalities) make vastly more money at sea than do their neighbors who work locally --- and the reason they do it is because they believe it's the choice that is best for them and their family.

Having not had this particular conversation about wages, family needs, living standards, etc. with an Indonesian, I did not allege any personal discourse (of the sort I've shared with Filipinos).

See http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/asiacities/jakarta.html

The data sheet shows that average household income is very close to that of Manila.

Looking at the income figures, is it not likely that the Indonesians sign cruise ship contracts for the same reasons the Filipinos do?

[lknick]

Rev--
Sounds like the chisels and pickaxes are starting to hurt from you being quarried so much.)Ah ha...caught my misspelling...so much for spell checkers!

[RevNeal]

...crew members (of both nationalities) make vastly more money at sea than do their neighbors who work locally --- and the reason they do it is because they believe it's the choice that is best for them and their family.

&

Looking at the income figures, is it not likely that the Indonesians sign cruise ship contracts for the same reasons the Filipinos do?

Absolutely correct. From my conversations with Indonesians who work on HAL ships this is exactly right.

[The_Hall_Monitor]

Please know that I was not, in any way, addressing anything in your post other than the statement regarding the nationality of cruisestaff personnel.

No offense taken. :) Neither was my response (which was being prepared when you posted) an effort to make you the quarry. ;)

(Don'cha love wordplay?)

[RevNeal]

No offense taken.:) Neither was my response (which was being prepared when you posted) an effort to make you the quarry. ;)

(Don'cha love wordplay?)

LOL ... yes, indeed.
And thank you very much. :)

[Keith B.]

A lot of people are of the opinion that adding tips to the cruise price will solve the problem. Unless ALL cruise lines go this route there would be a big price difference (the 7 day cruise would go up $70 for the line that installed this policy). y's inside cabin is $659 and x's inside cabin is $729. For the cost concerned, unknowledgeble cruiser this would appear to be the no brainer of a choose, misquided as it may be.

Just a thought.

We truly enjoy handing the envelope with the appropriate tip to the service provider with a strong handshake and a hardy thank you at the end of a cruise.
Additionally, We tip our waiter and room steward $10 each and the asst. waiter $5 the first or second day of the cruise and ensure them that the is more at the end of the cruise. Given what I'm paying for the cruise, etc. what's another $25-50 for good service?

[dakrewser]

Rev, your post was unkind as in my mind it only serves to put down the poster. And in what way did your factual correction change the point?

Because its very hard for Indonesians to come from Manilla? Correcting basic facts is in no way a "put down", but does help those reading the thread who might not know where the dining room staff comes from....

[dakrewser]

Additionally, We tip our waiter and room steward $10 each and the asst. waiter $5 the first or second day of the cruise and ensure them that the is more at the end of the cruise.

That's not a tip, its a bribe....:confused:

[cactuslady]

That's not a tip, its a bribe....:confused:


Hope my DH doesn't mind me telling this story . . .

Back when we were both single, and DH was on his first cruise, he handed the maitre d' $50 and asked to be seated with single women. The maitre d' did absolutely nothing except take the money and say "You're taken care of." When DH showed up at dinner and was seated with a family, a newlywed couple and a single gentlemen :( , he was just starting to get steamed . . . when I sat down. I was a bit late because I had been initially seated at the wrong table. All was made well only a year later when we were both seated at the Captain's table on our honeymoon cruise. :D

[dakrewser]

Back when we were both single, and DH was on his first cruise, he handed the maitre d' $50 and asked to be seated with single women. The maitre d' did absolutely nothing except take the money and say "You're taken care of." When DH showed up at dinner and was seated with a family, a newlywed couple and a single gentlemen :( , he was just starting to get steamed . . . when I sat down. I was a bit late because I had been initially seated at the wrong table. All was made well only a year later when we were both seated at the Captain's table on our honeymoon cruise. :DI hope he suitably rewarded the Maitre d' at the end of the cruise. Being a gentleman, I won't ask how much you bribed, er, tipped the maitre d'! :rolleyes:

[RevNeal]

Back when we were both single, and DH was on his first cruise, he handed the maitre d' $50 and asked to be seated with single women. The maitre d' did absolutely nothing except take the money and say "You're taken care of." When DH showed up at dinner and was seated with a family, a newlywed couple and a single gentlemen , he was just starting to get steamed . . . when I sat down. I was a bit late because I had been initially seated at the wrong table. All was made well only a year later when we were both seated at the Captain's table on our honeymoon cruise.

What a great story! HAL could use it as a marketing ploy! Come on a HAL cruise and meet the love of your life! :D

[cactuslady]

dakrewser --
I didn't think to do it, but did have several moments of consternation when I discovered that almost all of those good-looking men on board were with the Washington D.C. Gay Men's Chorus group. :rolleyes:

[jhannah]

What a great story! HAL could use it as a marketing ploy! Come on a HAL cruise and meet the love of your life! :DBut that would require HAL to get Captain Steubing, Vickie, Gopher, et. al. to defect from Princess and start The Love Boat Returns on HAL vessels. Hey! That's not a bad idea!!! :D

[lknick]

That's not a tip, its a bribe....:confused:And what's wrong with a bribe?

[lknick]

Because its very hard for Indonesians to come from Manilla? Correcting basic facts is in no way a "put down", but does help those reading the thread who might not know where the dining room staff comes from....Again, how did this fact change the conclusion?

[dakrewser]

Again, how did this fact change the conclusion?
Because Indonesia has a higher standard of living than the Phillipines, at least according to the Indonesians I know.

[dakrewser]

And what's wrong with a bribe?
Nothing as long as you don't mind being identified with "The Ugly American"

[The_Hall_Monitor]

Because its very hard for Indonesians to come from Manilla? Correcting basic facts is in no way a "put down", but does help those reading the thread who might not know where the dining room staff comes from....With apologies to Robert Preston, Meredith Wilson and everyone ever associated with the Music Man...

~~{Refrain}~~~

Pick a little, talk a little, parse a little, talk a little
Farewell ladies
Cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot, parse a little more
Pick a little, talk a little, parse a little, talk a little
Farewell ladies
Cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot, parse a little more
Pick a little, talk a little, pick a little, talk a little
Farewell ladies
Cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot, parse a little more
Pick a little, talk a little, parse a little, talk a little
We're going to leave you now

{Sotto voce}

Pick a little, talk a little, parse a little, talk a little
Cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep
Cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep
Cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep
Pick a little, talk a little, Cheep!

<Exit Stage Left>

[lknick]

Because Indonesia has a higher standard of living than the Phillipines, at least according to the Indonesians I know.Look at the links provided in both posts by Hall Monitor, and lo and behold, you will find it's the other way around.

The only value in information is to reach a conclusion. Even if you're correct, how does it change the conclusion that staff sign on since they can earn more with HAL than at home? I'd say it does not.

[lknick]

Nothing as long as you don't mind being identified with "The Ugly American"The Ugly American thinks his way is the only way and rejects everyone's else’s culture, finding something to sneer about.
The Ugly American puts labels on everything.
The Ugly American only speaks one language.
The Ugly American treats others as if they're ignorant just because they do not or chose not to speak English.

As I once posted on the old board, the best compliment I received in Venice was "You can't be an American. You speak Italian and laugh too much."

As they say in Buenos Aires "taking care of details [presenting an acceptable incentive] is plain good business."

In Japan, gift giving before discussions is mandatory. There is a complete protocol for this.

So where does this idea that "taking care of details" is somehow dishonorable and makes one an Ugly American come from?

[RevNeal]

With apologies to Robert Preston, Meredith Wilson and everyone ever associated with the Music Man...

Don't apologize ... I thought that was very funny. It could well be the theme song for our board!!!!!! :D

EXCELLENT.

[RevNeal]

The only value in information is to reach a conclusion. Even if you're correct, how does it change the conclusion that staff sign on since they can earn more with HAL than at home? I'd say it does not.

It doesn't change the conclusion. Indeed, my pointing this out simply amplified and established the conclusion even more. Which is just ONE of the reasons why I do not understand why you jumped all over my behind for simply pointing out that not all of HAL's cruisestaff come from the Philippines. :confused: WHY did you assume that I was implying or intending something more than a simple, minor, correction?

[jhannah]

So where does this idea that "taking care of details" is somehow dishonorable ...?It isn't. And this is exactly what Revneal was doing when he pointed out the differences in the nationalities of the crew -- taking care of details.
You can't have it both ways, lknick.

[lknick]

And this is exactly what Revneal was doing when he pointed out the differences in the nationalities of the crew -- taking care of details. You can't have it both ways, lknick.The expression is ‘Compartir sangre', which I translated as ‘taking care of details’ to avoid misunderstanding. Literally, it means ‘sharing blood.’

Now, you’ve stepped way out of character just to make your point, which I believe to be invalid. We all know parsing helps in court, but it is not considered righteous. My post had to do with bribes being somehow ‘Ugly American’.

I took Rev's comment to be similar to an American next to me in Florence before the statue of David who said, "my, his thing is so small." It had nothing to do with the majesty of the work and only served to detract from it.

[RevNeal]

I took Rev's comment to be similar to an American next to me in Florence before the statue of David who said, "my, his thing is so small." It had nothing to do with the majesty of the work and only served to detract from it.

Put a sock in it, lknick. The_Hall_Monitor recognized that I wasn't putting her down or trying to discredit her post. You took my remark entirely WRONG, adding content which manifestly was NOT there, and now you're just adding insult to injury with this ridiculous analogy. Stop it.

Also, please stop talking about me as if I'm not posting right here; I do NOT appreciate it. I'm a very patient fellow, but enough is enough.

[dakrewser]

The expression is ‘Compartir sangre', which I translated as ‘taking care of details’ to avoid misunderstanding. Literally, it means ‘sharing blood.’

Hey, you're wonderful, we should all take lessons. You even speak Italian!

Still, in my ethical system, bribery is wrong. And the attitude that paying a big enough bribe gets you an advantage is the essence of "ugly Americanism."

But I don't expect to change your attitude, so I'll just bow out of this discussion.

[fsdj1097]

Is it ok to give your steward and waiter and the other staff who took care of you a thank you card with the tip inside the card? We did that on our first cruise on the Maasdam...I brought along some nice cards and wrote a little note thanking them personally and added cash to the envelopes, then handed them to each and every person that helped us have an wonderful time. (Even the yum-yum guy!)

So I shouldn't do this anymore? I really enjoyed letting each person know how much I appreciated the excellent service they gave us.

Melody
Yes, you can still tip those who have given you excellent service.

But, here's the catch, if you remove the automatic tip on your shipboard account, the crewmember must turn the tip in to be pooled with other crewmembers.

If you leave the automatic tip on your account, the crewmember is allowed to keep the tip.

[trubey]

Quote:
...crew members (of both nationalities) make vastly more money at sea than do their neighbors who work locally --- and the reason they do it is because they believe it's the choice that is best for them and their family.

&

Looking at the income figures, is it not likely that the Indonesians sign cruise ship contracts for the same reasons the Filipinos do?


Absolutely correct. From my conversations with Indonesians who work on HAL ships this is exactly right.

End Quote
__________________

According to the World Bank, here are the 2003 figures:

Annual Per Capita Earnings:
U.S. $37610
Philippines: $1080
Indonesia: $810

Relative Purchasing Power (local costs vs. salaries):
U.S. $37500
Philippines $4640
Indonesia: $3210

Lane

[lknick]

Rev...will be glad to 'put a sock in it.' I simply misconstued your intent as I took it as a 'gotcha' type statement.

Previously, on a thread about dress, a poster accused you of being rude. You asked the poster to explain in what way you were rude. The poster never did reply. Now, when I tell you of my thinking...right, wrong, or indifferent...you become annoyed.

I personally hate it when we have 'hit and run' posts where someone makes an inflammatory statement and does not allow us to know why they reacted that way or explain their thinking. I may be right or wrong, but I will justify what I post. And that was my thinking.

[lknick]

Still, in my ethical system, bribery is wrong. And the attitude that paying a big enough bribe gets you an advantage is the essence of "ugly Americanism."

But I don't expect to change your attitude, so I'll just bow out of this discussion.I notice you stay with the word 'bribery'...a word full of evaluative connotations.

This has nothing to do with my personal attitude. Customs around the world differ, and the American way is not necessarily the best.

The essence of the Ugly American is as I outlined...'the American way is per se the best and there must be something deficient with you if you don't understand that.' Well, it just ain't so.

A number of years ago, while having a drink on the shores of Lake Geneva, an American next to me received his change in Swiss Francs. His comment was 'what is this in real money. At that time, the Swiss franc was backed by gold. Now that's the Ugly America!

As a writer, I would have presumed you would understand these nuances. [btw, I would be interested in your genre]

[RevNeal]

Previously, on a thread about dress, a poster accused you of being rude. You asked the poster to explain in what way you were rude. The poster never did reply. Now, when I tell you of my thinking...right, wrong, or indifferent...you become annoyed.

I personally hate it when we have 'hit and run' posts where someone makes an inflammatory statement and does not allow us to know why they reacted that way or explain their thinking. I may be right or wrong, but I will justify what I post. And that was my thinking.

THANK YOU, lknick. I appreciate you responding. As you note, someone DID accuse me of being rude in a prior thread about dress. When I questioned that person (a couple of times) about what it was that I had done that was rude, that person never did reply with an example. That was annoying but, to be blunt, I didn't really care what that other person thought because I hadn't had any prior interaction with them. This situation, on the other had, was worse because I've actually interacted with you on this board for well over a year, and had come to respect your opinion even when I disagreed.

Again, thank you for responding.

[cindiedee]

Just putting my two cents worth in, but on some HAL ships we have been told by the waitstaff, cabin stewards, etc that they only get a VERY small portion of the "voluntary" tip which is added to your final bill (if anything). If you leave the $10pp pd on the bill, they say they don't see any of it. So, we are the opposite of some of these posters, we do have the tip removed from our bill but I PROMISE that we do tip - we just put the $ in a small envelope with a note of thanks and put it right in the stewards, waitstaff's hands. And even though there is a 15% surcharge for "service" on the bar bills, we find that we always have a favorite bar/lounge on each ship - and going each night ensures that the staff knows you and your tastes - we also tip these wonderful people as they say they don't get any of the 15% surcharge. Don't know if this is all true or not but have heard the same thing over and over again on different ships - and I just feel better knowing that they people who made our trip SO enjoyable, were tipped and it doesn't go to anyone else.

[dakrewser]

Just putting my two cents worth in, but on some HAL ships we have been told by the waitstaff, cabin stewards, etc that they only get a VERY small portion of the "voluntary" tip which is added to your final bill (if anything). If you leave the $10pp pd on the bill, they say they don't see any of it. So, we are the opposite of some of these posters, we do have the tip removed from our bill but I PROMISE that we do tip - we just put the $ in a small envelope with a note of thanks and put it right in the stewards, waitstaff's hands. And even though there is a 15% surcharge for "service" on the bar bills, we find that we always have a favorite bar/lounge on each ship - and going each night ensures that the staff knows you and your tastes - we also tip these wonderful people as they say they don't get any of the 15% surcharge. Don't know if this is all true or not but have heard the same thing over and over again on different ships - and I just feel better knowing that they people who made our trip SO enjoyable, were tipped and it doesn't go to anyone else.
Don't know who's been giving you an earful, but a) the $10/day is split among those who serve you and b) if you remove it and tip individually, they can't keep the money but must pool it. And the 15% on the bar tab goes into the tip pool also. This isn't just my imagination, either, as most of those posting here will agree.

[vjb223]

Even if you leave the $10 pp per day charge on , they still have to turn in any extra $ to the pool. I wish that was not the case but they still have to share whatever extra you give them.

[peaches from georgia]

-cindiedee- If you remove the $10pp/day auto tip and tip on your own, your stewards DO have to pool what you gave them, so they are receiving a lot less than what you think you tipped them. :(

-vjb223- If you leave the $10pp/day on your account and tip extra directly to your stewards, they DO NOT have to pool the extra tip $$$ that you gave them. :D

[elmorejj]

cindiedee, someone has been pulling the wool over your eyes! They DO get a % of the $10pppd, the bar servers DO get most of the 15% added to bar bills. I think they have been playing on your sympathies trying to hustle extra tips out of you. They are in a union and wouldn`t have voted for the new policy if they didn`t think it would be better for them.....jean :cool:

[FlorenceItaly]

I DO believe they get the 15% because in June and last week the drinks were pushed heavily, IMO.

Marie

[jhannah]

-cindiedee- If you remove the $10pp/day auto tip and tip on your own, your stewards DO have to pool what you gave them, so they are receiving a lot less than what you think you tipped them. :(

-vjb223- If you leave the $10pp/day on your account and tip extra directly to your stewards, they DO NOT have to pool the extra tip $$$ that you gave them. :DThis is the way it is. It is very clearly spelled out in a letter that comes with the cruise documents. Elmorejj is correct, IMO, that some staff have played (shilled) to your sympathies in order to get more tips. I don't believe this is ethical on the stewards part.

[divinggirl]

Interesting that this came up. Last week on the Zuiderdam my sister was told by Pablo, a asst. bartender that they do pool all their "extra" tips, not that they HAD to, but the staff had all agreed to do so. I'm not sure if this was a load of BS or the truth, but you have to think that that requires a great deal of honesty on the part of the crew. I know I tipped Eduardo (among others) at the sports bar extra and thanked him for his excellent service. If he wants to go and pool that $, he can, I guess, but he doesn't have to.

[dakrewser]

Even if you leave the $10 pp per day charge on , they still have to turn in any extra $ to the pool. I wish that was not the case but they still have to share whatever extra you give them.
I think you're confusing two different policies. If you tip an individual before the end of the cruise, that money is supposed to be placed in an escrow account. If you remove the $10/day auto-tip then the escrow is divvied up amongst all the crew. If you do not remove it, then the escrowed money is returned to the person you gave it to.

[RuthC]

Interesting that this came up. Last week on the Zuiderdam my sister was told by Pablo, a asst. bartender that they do pool all their "extra" tips, not that they HAD to, but the staff had all agreed to do so. I'm not sure if this was a load of BS or the truth, but you have to think that that requires a great deal of honesty on the part of the crew. I know I tipped Eduardo (among others) at the sports bar extra and thanked him for his excellent service. If he wants to go and pool that $, he can, I guess, but he doesn't have to.divinggirl, this is simply a continuation of prior practice. Before the mandatory $10 service charge and 15% added to drinks many lounge stewards had an informal coverage arrangement. They knew each other's customers and kept an eye out to make sure that everyone was promptly served additional drinks, munchies, etc. Then they split any tips.

All in all a good system.

[divinggirl]

RuthC-


Thank you for the clarification, that makes sense!! Since this past cruise was the first time I sailed HAL, I have to say that the service was second to none and those employees work very hard for their $ and to please all pax. IMHO, $10 pppd is too little, but is probably what the market will stand. All my guys got a little extra, and it felt good to do it!!:D

[vjb223]

I have been told by, as of two days ago a sales manager for HA ,plus the sales dept. that ALL tips above the $10 per day had to be put in the pool. Maybe she did not know what she was talking about ( I do not think that) I tend to believe her since on our last cruise in May we were told the same thing by our cabin steward, front desk and dining room waiter. Believe what you like. I quit..