Paying more for heavier passenger for flightseeing?

[dawnsb]

My husband and I are in the early planning stages for going to Alaska in 2006. I understand that we'll have to pay 1.5 times the fare because my husband is over the weight limits for flightseeing. I'm trying to decide on one trip that would be "worth" it to pay for both of us to go.

We'll be doing a land tour first on our own up to Denali/Fairbanks before heading on a southbound cruise.

Any ideas?

Thanks!
Joel & Dawn

[Paulmj]

We used Carlin Air last week in Ketchikan to go on a Misty Fjords flightseeing trip. Jeff Carlin is a first-rate pilot and I recommend him highly.

I am 6' 3" and weight 270 Lbs. Carlin, like many others operating there, use DeHavilland Beaver floatplanes. They are heavy lifters and there was no issue with my weight. 6 of us, a full-house including the pilot were on board.

There are some operators who use Cessna 180s. These are more weight sensitive, and there might be an issue with them. Just find someone using the Beaver aircraft and you should have no problems.

I took some panoramic pictures including some on the flightseeing trip that you can find at:

http://www.pbase.com/paulmj/serenade_alaska

[lucyjohnz]

My husband is 6'3" and weighs 350 and we definitely had to pay 1.5 times the fare on our Helicopter tour in Juneau with Temsco. On checking other companies on helicopter tours, I found they ALL charged 1.5 for any weights over 250. However, it does sound like helicopters are different than float planes in their weight requirements.

[flagger]

However, it does sound like helicopters are different than float planes in their weight requirements.
They are. Weight and Balance is far more critical with helicopter operations than say a DH Beaver or Husky. This is not the time to lie about weight. Think of that crash that killed the singer Aliyah in the Bahamas that was an over loaded plane. Many operators will have a scale in the office because they need to not take on as much fuel because you have to figure that into max takeoff weight as well.

FYI, the FAA adult weight is just 170 pounds for the average passenger when figuring W&B for commercial aircraft (airliners). Hopefully that will be adjusted in the near future as Americans are ever expanding.

[polodad]

The weight problem on FAA regulated airlines was alleviated by doing away with meal service. No food weight & over time the passengers should weigh less.

[Treven]

I've been e-mailing Island Wings for the flightseeing adventure. Nowhere in their website does it mention anything about weight. However on every helecopter sightseeing adventure they all sell 1&1/2 seats to us "large boned" individuals.

[flagger]

We are flying with Michelle when we go, I told her we were both "fluffy". She said it shouldn't be a problem.

I will post about it in my review when I return.

[ajpack]

We just flew with Michelle last week and there was no mention of weight restrictions. I'm 5'8" and a little "fluffy" :D and there was nothing said.

Anne

[flagger]

What did you think of the flight and Michelle. Do tell, do tell!

[Paulmj]

Island Wings uses a DeHavilland Beaver fixed-wing aircraft, and weight does not seem to be a problem. We used Carlin Air, and there too there was no problem with my 270 Lbs.

[JohnQ]

We flew with Michelle and her dog Pero in her Cesna, before she switched planes. She is great, the flight and Misty Fjords were great as well as the lake and little island we stopped on. She had great eagles hanging around her dock for a bonus.

[ajpack]

We really enjoyed the plane ride----so glad we did that instead of one of the other tours. The ride was smooth as silk, but then we had a perfect day--no wind---no clouds. I was hoping her dog would go along, but he had ear problems and wasn't feeling well. We landed in a lake nestled between high granite cliffs---how can you even describe it!!! There weren't any eagles around the dock; they said they had moved north to better feeding streams.

I didn't get the friendly feeling for Michelle at first that I thought I would. She was over 45 minutes late for our tour and never even said she was sorry or offered an explanation. That only came when we landed and got off the plane at the dock. The man from Island Wings explained that she has a contract with a cannery, and she was taking them on a "fish seeking" flight that morning and it ran over. I just feel she could have offered an aplology when she arrived. We only left at 12:30 instead of 11:30. The last tender for the Mercury was leaving at 2:15, therefore we had to hurry back and didn't get to see the town at all. Once the tour was in the air, I forgot all about it and enjoyed the scenery. I would highly recommend taking a tour like this with Island Wings or another company. You won't regret it.

I don't like to write anything negative about a tour, but you should be aware that something like this could happen and plan your time accordingly.

Anne

Anne

[Paulmj]

We flew with Jeff Carlin of Carlin Air last week. Jeff and Michelle used to be "friends" until about three years ago. He said they run very similar operations with similar aircraft. We were very satisfied with Jeff. He was informative and was very punctual the day he took us.

Re the isolated lake with the little island, I suspect this is Nooya lake where he took us. Even though there are so many lakes where a floatplane can touch down, they may use the same place.

See: http://www.pbase.com/image/32635653/original for a picture I took when we were there. Perhaps you will recognize it.

[clopaw]

It's interesting to read about Michelle and her dog. I had emailed her to ask about my husband, myself, and my husband's guide dog. The dog would not sit on a seat. He curls up at my husband's feet or in the aisle if there is one. They told me they would charge me for two and a half fares. I'm going to let it drop, but I'm not sure that under ADA they can legally do that. I may check with Carlin Air.

[Paulmj]

I don't know about ADA, but these aircraft are extremely tight on space. You can barely find room for your own feet much less with a dog at your feet. It isn't easy getting in and out.

As an ex-pilot, I would never take an animal in an aircraft that I was operating. It doesn't matter how docile it might be on land. You never know what is going to happen when the animal is in an unknown environment, and I wouldn't want to be in an airplane when and if it goes beserk.

[clopaw]

Separate from the ADA, this is Alaska law with reference to guide dogs:

Alaska Statutes of 1988; Code of Civil Procedure Sections 09.65.150 and 11.76.130 The State of Alaska guarantees by statute the legal right of a blind person to be accompanied by a specially trained dog guide in a common carrier, place of public accommodation, or other place to which the public is invited. No charge can be levied because of the presence of the dog, but the dog guide user is liable for any property damage the dog might cause. Violation: Interference with the rights of a disabled person is a Class B misdemeanor.

Because these flightseeing trips are offered to the general public, I believe this statute would apply.

Paulmj, the dog has flown a number of times in various sizes of planes. He is calmer than many human passengers. As I previously said, I wasn't going to pursue this, but since you said you would refuse access, I thought I would go ahead and look it up.

[motheroftwolabs]

My two daughters, DH and I rode with Michele to the Misty Fjords....It was AMAZING. Having read the hype, I prebooked her and this tour specifically. HER TRIP did not disappoint. Was she personality/tourguide extraordinaire?...not really but I would rather have my family's seaplane pilot be exactly that....An astute pilot who is familiar enough with the area and sights to show us an incredible experience. Michele took us to a breathtaking place and let us "take it all in" for about a half hour. From what I have read, other comparable tours do not afford you that amount of time. I'd much rather breath it, climb it,see it and admire it for myself than have someone narrate from the plane. Michelle lets you walk away with your own unique experience!

Have a great trip and do as much as you possibly can..These are memories of a lifetime!

Tara
Summit 07.30.04

[Paulmj]

I don't think that a flightseeing operation is comparable to a common carrier that would offer transportation from point A to point B. After all, this is more like entertainment than transportation. One doesn't really have to go.

Having said that, I have no feel for the legalities of the ADA.

What I do know for certain is that a PIC (pilot in command) is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and its passengers. If the pilot feels any uncertainty about taking a passenger, dog or whatever because it would compromise safety, he has the legal right to refuse to do this.

The fact that you say the dog has flown before without incident would have no bearing on a decision that I would make to not take it aboard. I wouldn't know you, your dog nor the circumstances in which it flew before. I just would never take it with me. Another pilot might feel differently, but that's his/her own personal decision.

[clopaw]

"other place to which the public is invited" are the operative words.

[greatam]

Let me chime in on "common carriers". ALL, and I do mean all, planes that carry passengers or freight in Alaska have to be registered as common carriers with Alaska DOT (and their airplane subset). This does not make them common carriers in the eyes of the federal government for ADA rules.

It is the same thing as in the continental US for motor carriers. You may have a "common carrier" permit for INTRA-state transport. If you haul across state lines, you must have a federal DOT (or really MCSS) common carrier permit issued by the federal government and all the federal rules apply, including ADA.

I really believe you are being charged for the weight, not for the actual animal. You are adding another 70 pounds or so to your total weight.

[flagger]

What I do know for certain is that a PIC (pilot in command) is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and its passengers. If the pilot feels any uncertainty about taking a passenger, dog or whatever because it would compromise safety, he has the legal right to refuse to do this.
Hear, hear, as PIC the one in the left seat can refuse to carry anything that might compromise safety.