HAL cowtows to Libya!

[cosi]

Holland American Line Cruise
Thu Apr 10 Tripoli, Libya
IMPORTANT NOTE: Libya will not allow U.S. citizens and persons born in the U.S. to disembark in Libya. Due to current restrictions in Libya the cruise line may not be able to allow passengers with Israeli passports, Israeli stamps in their passports, or passengers born in Israel to embark on a cruise that visits Libya.

What a bunch of wimps those HAL people. I will never again cruise with them. I am not a US citizen and not an Israeli but this is too much. Shame on you. I wonder of Carneval Cruise knows about this?

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

FYI:

ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Passports and visas are required. The restrictions on the use of U.S. passports for travel to, in, or through Libya were lifted in February 2004. Please see the section below on Special Circumstances.
Without prior notice, the Libyan government on November 11, 2007 “reinstated” a requirement that all foreign travelers must have an Arabic translation of their personal biographic data added to their passport in order to apply for a Libyan visa, to enter Libya, or to stay in Libya even with a Libyan visa. This requirement includes foreigners who already received visas before the requirement was put into place, including those foreigners currently resident in Libya. Since that date, foreign travelers whose passports do not have Arabic translations have been denied entry into Libya or refused boarding by airlines on flights into Libya.
The U.S. passport is a U.S. travel document that meets all generally recognized international standards. While the Libyan government has the right to impose its own requirements for travelers in connection with obtaining a Libyan visa, it also has the responsibility to give travelers information on where and how to meet these requirements. Travelers should be aware that in some cases, Libyan officials may ask that U.S. citizens obtain translations from U.S. Government-approved translation services. However, U.S. consular officers have no authority to designate or certify private translations; nor do they have authority to place a consular authentication stamp over a privately-obtained translation.
American citizens who hold Libyan visas or who intend to apply for a visa are advised to contact the nearest Libyan embassy or consulate for information on how to obtain an acceptable translation. Information from Libyan embassies and consulates may differ from country to country. American citizens may also contact the Consular Section at the U.S. embassy or consulate for additional information.
In a letter dated January 1, 2008, the Libyan government notified airlines that, beginning January 7, 2008, all tourist visa holders, both individuals and in tour groups, must show that they have at least USD1000 or the equivalent in currency in order to be allowed to enter Libya. Credit cards, bank statements, and traveler’s checks will not be accepted to meet this requirement. This requirement applies only to tourist-visa holders; persons traveling to Libya on other types of visas are exempt from the requirement. Americans planning to travel to Libya should contact the Libyan Embassy or their air carrier for further information. Americans should remember to be especially vigilant while carrying the large amount of currency required by this measure.
The Government of Libya does not allow persons with passports bearing an Israeli visa or entry/exit stamps to enter the country. At this time, neither Libya nor the U.S. provides visa services to the general public in each other’s countries; U.S. visitors to Libya should therefore plan to obtain a visa via a third country. Libyan visas require an invitation or sponsor, can take up to several months to process, and should be obtained prior to travel. All visas are vetted and approved by immigration departments in Tripoli and only issued by the appropriate Libyan Embassy upon receipt of that approval. There may be another wait for actual visa issuance once approval has been received. For tourists, the visa application procedure in most cases requires a letter of invitation from an accredited tour company in Libya; for business travelers, a letter of invitation is needed from the Libyan business entity. Americans who apply for Libyan visas are experiencing significant delays, often waiting several weeks or months if their applications are approved at all. Inconsistent Libyan visa practice is subject to change without notice and visa service to American citizens is often blocked without warning. With few exceptions, Libya has stopped issuing tourist visas to Americans. It is recommended that Americans always obtain individual Libyan visas prior to travel, rather than group visas. Americans who expected to enter on group tour visas or individual airport visas arranged by Libyan sponsors have routinely been denied entry at the air and sea ports and have been forced to turn back at the airport or remain onboard ship at the port while other nationals disembark. The U.S. Embassy in Tripoli cannot provide assistance to American citizens seeking Libyan visas.
Inquiries about obtaining a Libyan visa may be made through the Libyan Embassy in Washington, D.C. The Embassy is located at 2600 Virginia Avenue NW – Suite 705, Washington, DC 20037, phone number 202-944-9601, fax number 202-944-9606. Neither the Libyan Mission to the UN in New York nor the Libyan Embassy in Washington, DC accepts visa applications. The closest Libyan visa-issuing office to the continental United States is the Libyan People’s Bureau in Ottawa, Canada; however, that office frequently declines to accept visa applications from American citizens. The land borders with Egypt and Tunisia are subject to periodic closures even to travelers with valid Libyan visas. Short-term closures of other land borders may occur with little notice. Within three days of arrival, visitors must register at the police station closest to where they are residing or they may encounter problems during their stay or upon departure.

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[byucougs]

This is quite understandable considering the informstion given on the US governments website:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_951.html


Of special note are the following requirements:
--both individuals and in tour groups, must show that they have at least USD1000 or the equivalent in currency in order to be allowed to enter Libya. Credit cards, bank statements, and traveler’s checks will not be accepted to meet this requirement
--travelers must have an Arabic translation of their personal biographic data added to their passport in order to apply for a Libyan visa, to enter Libya, or to stay in Libya even with a Libyan visa.

Who will be prepared for these two requirements? Not many, I think

[cosi]

Ahoy!

FYI:

ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Passports and visas are required. The restrictions on the use of U.S. passports for travel to, in, or through Libya were lifted in February 2004. Please see the section below on Special Circumstances.
Without prior notice, the Libyan government on November 11, 2007 “reinstated” a requirement that all foreign travelers must have an Arabic translation of their personal biographic data added to their passport in order to apply for a Libyan visa, to enter Libya, or to stay in Libya even with a Libyan visa. This requirement includes foreigners who already received visas before the requirement was put into place, including those foreigners currently resident in Libya. Since that date, foreign travelers whose passports do not have Arabic translations have been denied entry into Libya or refused boarding by airlines on flights into Libya.
The U.S. passport is a U.S. travel document that meets all generally recognized international standards. While the Libyan government has the right to impose its own requirements for travelers in connection with obtaining a Libyan visa, it also has the responsibility to give travelers information on where and how to meet these requirements. Travelers should be aware that in some cases, Libyan officials may ask that U.S. citizens obtain translations from U.S. Government-approved translation services. However, U.S. consular officers have no authority to designate or certify private translations; nor do they have authority to place a consular authentication stamp over a privately-obtained translation.
American citizens who hold Libyan visas or who intend to apply for a visa are advised to contact the nearest Libyan embassy or consulate for information on how to obtain an acceptable translation. Information from Libyan embassies and consulates may differ from country to country. American citizens may also contact the Consular Section at the U.S. embassy or consulate for additional information.
In a letter dated January 1, 2008, the Libyan government notified airlines that, beginning January 7, 2008, all tourist visa holders, both individuals and in tour groups, must show that they have at least USD1000 or the equivalent in currency in order to be allowed to enter Libya. Credit cards, bank statements, and traveler’s checks will not be accepted to meet this requirement. This requirement applies only to tourist-visa holders; persons traveling to Libya on other types of visas are exempt from the requirement. Americans planning to travel to Libya should contact the Libyan Embassy or their air carrier for further information. Americans should remember to be especially vigilant while carrying the large amount of currency required by this measure.
The Government of Libya does not allow persons with passports bearing an Israeli visa or entry/exit stamps to enter the country. At this time, neither Libya nor the U.S. provides visa services to the general public in each other’s countries; U.S. visitors to Libya should therefore plan to obtain a visa via a third country. Libyan visas require an invitation or sponsor, can take up to several months to process, and should be obtained prior to travel. All visas are vetted and approved by immigration departments in Tripoli and only issued by the appropriate Libyan Embassy upon receipt of that approval. There may be another wait for actual visa issuance once approval has been received. For tourists, the visa application procedure in most cases requires a letter of invitation from an accredited tour company in Libya; for business travelers, a letter of invitation is needed from the Libyan business entity. Americans who apply for Libyan visas are experiencing significant delays, often waiting several weeks or months if their applications are approved at all. Inconsistent Libyan visa practice is subject to change without notice and visa service to American citizens is often blocked without warning. With few exceptions, Libya has stopped issuing tourist visas to Americans. It is recommended that Americans always obtain individual Libyan visas prior to travel, rather than group visas. Americans who expected to enter on group tour visas or individual airport visas arranged by Libyan sponsors have routinely been denied entry at the air and sea ports and have been forced to turn back at the airport or remain onboard ship at the port while other nationals disembark. The U.S. Embassy in Tripoli cannot provide assistance to American citizens seeking Libyan visas.
Inquiries about obtaining a Libyan visa may be made through the Libyan Embassy in Washington, D.C. The Embassy is located at 2600 Virginia Avenue NW – Suite 705, Washington, DC 20037, phone number 202-944-9601, fax number 202-944-9606. Neither the Libyan Mission to the UN in New York nor the Libyan Embassy in Washington, DC accepts visa applications. The closest Libyan visa-issuing office to the continental United States is the Libyan People’s Bureau in Ottawa, Canada; however, that office frequently declines to accept visa applications from American citizens. The land borders with Egypt and Tunisia are subject to periodic closures even to travelers with valid Libyan visas. Short-term closures of other land borders may occur with little notice. Within three days of arrival, visitors must register at the police station closest to where they are residing or they may encounter problems during their stay or upon departure.

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)


I do not know why anybody would want to visit that country anyway??

[cosi]

I do not know why anybody would want to visit that country anyway??

[jhannah]

What a bunch of wimps those HAL people. What??? How are they wimps? Are you suggesting the cruise line thumb their nose at the published restrictions? And, yes ... Carnival Corporation is well aware of this.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

Actually we had the Tripoli port stop cancelled last May-June on the Prinsendam for some sort of political 'who-haw'. Instead we visited an extra port in Sicily. No big deal. Have a libation and enjoy yourself!

HAL & other lines take passenger safety quite seriously. I, for one, appreciate it.

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[cosi]

Hi, I meant why do they even dock in places like that? Libya gets money from HAL if they dock there.
They should just stop going to places like that. There is nothing special to see there anyway.

[cosi]

Hi, I meant why do they even dock in places like that? Libya gets money from HAL if they dock there.
They should just stop going to places like that. There is nothing special to see there anyway.

[Cruising-along]

I've known about this for awhile, since Libya is a scheduled port stop on my cruise coming up in May. I'm happy we won't be going there. It isn't a matter of being a wimp, it's common sense! And there are many, many other places I'd rather go than Libya.

It seems kind of silly to say you won't sail on HAL (what about all the other cruiselines who won't go there?) What about all the cruiseline passengers and airline passengers who were turned away when this was suddenly announced late last fall, who had no other plans?

[AWED23]

I am on the Prinsendam Voyage around Africa and I personally would rather make a stop in Sicily or Malta....Furthermore, I am much more concerned about Kenya where Cruise Spec****st has an overnight Safari tour that is run by A&K and sounds great...Keeping my fingers crossed...:cool:

[cosi]

I've known about this for awhile, since Libya is a scheduled port stop on my cruise coming up in May. I'm happy we won't be going there. It isn't a matter of being a wimp, it's common sense! And there are many, many other places I'd rather go than Libya.

It seems kind of silly to say you won't sail on HAL (what about all the other cruiselines who won't go there?) What about all the cruiseline passengers and airline passengers who were turned away when this was suddenly announced late last fall, who had no other plans?


Hello Carolyn
I think you misunderstood me. I was disappointed that HAL would still stop there even if this country was giving US and Israeli citizen such a hard time.
I felt the decent thing for HAL would have been to cancel all stops there.
I am with you, there are much better places to visit than the Magreb countries, nothing much there.
regards cosi

[sail7seas]

[B]Humor me my stupid moment but I want to be sure I understand this.

All guests EXCEPT those born in U.S., those born in Israel and those with an Israeli stamp in or traveling on an Israeli passport will be allowed ashore? And they are still making a port call there? One would be surprised if not at least 50% of the guests will be on U.S. passports, right? So a minimum of 50% (and it's probably more) of the guests will have to stay aboard but HAL is still calling there?

Do I have this correct?



/B]

[Cruising-along]

Hello Carolyn
I think you misunderstood me. I was disappointed that HAL would still stop there even if this country was giving US and Israeli citizen such a hard time.
I felt the decent thing for HAL would have been to cancel all stops there.
I am with you, there are much better places to visit than the Magreb countries, nothing much there.
regards cosi

Oh, thanks for explaining :) I agree, I don't see why any cruiselines still have Libya on their itineraries.

[terrydtx]

This is a real no brainer, since the majority of HAL customers are US citizens, just boycott any HAL cruise(or any other cruise line ship) that makes a stop in Libya. When the ships start sailing empty, economics will take over and HAL will get the message. :p :p One of the reasons we are booked on the Century this year for our western Mediterranean cruise, Celebrity does not have any itineraries with Tripoli. :D

[arzz]

I am with the group here -- why schedule a stop in Libya at all? Seems risky and unpleasant. I, for one, would not book an itinerary with Libya on it being aware of the present restrictions.

Does HAL fuel up there with cheap fuel? I would rather pay a larger fuel supplement than give this government and of our dollars.

[hammybee]

[b]Humor me my stupid moment but I want to be sure I understand this.

All guests EXCEPT those born in U.S., those born in Israel and those with an Israeli stamp in or traveling on an Israeli passport will be allowed ashore? And they are still making a port call there? One would be surprised if not at least 50% of the guests will be on U.S. passports, right? So a minimum of 50% (and it's probably more) of the guests will have to stay aboard but HAL is still calling there?

Do I have this correct? /B]

The ban only applies to the U.S. and Israel and those with an Israel stamp on their passports. There may be a substantial number of Canadians onboard along with passengers from other countries. BTW, Israeli law allows their citizens to hold foreign passports and many do.

This is a scheduled port call for several cruise lines. Costa, owned by CCL, is one of them. I think the decision to dock or not, is made on a sailing to sailing basis, depending upon the passport situation of those onboard.

If I recall, HAL has diverted to Malta and other near by ports in the past, when necessary.

As Arzz suggests, filling up the ole gas tank may also be a factor, some of the time.

[sail7seas]

So the way I stated it is correct, Hammy?

Just want to be sure I am understanding.

[ikelmay]

just done a quick search, and it seems the requirement for an arabic translation of the passport applies to other nationals also. Countries in the middle east have had entry restrictions on passports and/or travellers with israeli connections for years.

I am surprised any cruise line gets involved in a logistical nightmare like this - how can you plan ahead when half your ship may be stuck on board for a wasted day?

[ikelmay]

dupe

[hammybee]

So the way I stated it is correct, Hammy?

Just want to be sure I am understanding.



We are on the same page.

I do not claim to know what is correct :o

I am curious if any HAL ship has actually docked there.

[hammybee]

Bump to coax the previous post out of hiding- CC page break issue.

[jtl513]

scratched

[mountainmare]

I never understand why people get so angry about things like this--I remember awhile ago the same discussion about Columbia.
I do know that Costa does sail to Libya--but warns that citzens of some countries or with some stamps on their passports should not book the cruise.

If you don't want to go somewhere book a different trip. I did make that choice recently because there were ports on a HAL itinerary that I was not comfortable with, so I booked something different.

We can't get angry at cruiselines (that are foreign flagged) or airlines that happen to transport people all over the world. We can't eliminate all countries that don't get along with us--or each other. We can only make choices that for ourselves. Remember when the last place you would ever consider going was Russia, China---or Vietnam?

[dakrewser]

While I have my doubts about the PR and customer service people in Seattle, I've no doubt about the efficiency of the bean counters - and if they weren't making money by stopping in Libya then it wouldn't be happening.

Would I book a cruise with a port stop in Libya? It would depend on the totality of the itinerary.

Would I plan to tour the port? Most likely not.

Would I get my knickers in a twist over the situation? Definitely not. HAL can schedule port stops in Hades if they want, and I'll book the cruise if it's an itinerary that's interesting enough.

After all, if we only booked cruises that stopped places we didn't have political "situations" with, then almost all European and Pacific cruises would be out as would many Caribbean ones. And I'm not sure about those that stop in Canada or Mexico.

[mountainmare]

dup post

[hammybee]

Would I get my knickers in a twist over the situation? Definitely not. HAL can schedule port stops in Hades if they want, and I'll book the cruise if it's an itinerary that's interesting enough.

After all, if we only booked cruises that stopped places we didn't have political "situations" with, then almost all European and Pacific cruises would be out as would many Caribbean ones. And I'm not sure about those that stop in Canada or Mexico.

A balanced perception !

We'll meet in Hades. :eek:

[arzz]

Whether or not I choose to cruise a particular itinerary aside -- I question whether the ship and passengers (on board the ship or those who choose to disembark) would be safe at all in a port where the atmosphere is so inhospitable to so many of the folks on board. To be politically correct here I understand that the vast majority of the people in a nation are not the government and often do not agree with every position a government takes.

Sharing a portion of my cruise fare with the folks and the government of an inhospitable nation is my personal choice -- but I admit that I would probably be a little scared to even stay on the ship in such a port -- their regs keep those whom they disapprove of on board ... what a wonderful target once those who are "OK" have disembarked. Just my own opinion.

As others have said, the port is on the itinerary, but do the HAL ships actually port there or do they divert?

[Jade13]

Hi, I meant why do they even dock in places like that? Libya gets money from HAL if they dock there.
They should just stop going to places like that. There is nothing special to see there anyway.



That is what I thought you meant, and I agree!

HAL should not make any stops in places that do not allow either US or Israeli citizens, or passengers who have visited Israel and have an Israeli stamp in their passport.

[Jade13]

[quote=arzz;13129214] but I admit that I would probably be a little scared to even stay on the ship in such a port -- their regs keep those whom they disapprove of on board ... what a wonderful target once those who are "OK" have disembarked. Just my own opinion.

quote]

Good point. Once all the Us citizens, Israelis and anyone who has visited Israel is left onboard....what a target.

[Boytjie]

Hi, I meant why do they even dock in places like that? Libya gets money from HAL if they dock there.
They should just stop going to places like that. There is nothing special to see there anyway.


Cruise lines go to ports where passengers want to go to....

What you may think is "nothing to see" may be interesting to other people.

[Boytjie]

[b]Humor me my stupid moment but I want to be sure I understand this.

All guests EXCEPT those born in U.S., those born in Israel and those with an Israeli stamp in or traveling on an Israeli passport will be allowed ashore? And they are still making a port call there? One would be surprised if not at least 50% of the guests will be on U.S. passports, right? So a minimum of 50% (and it's probably more) of the guests will have to stay aboard but HAL is still calling there?

Do I have this correct?



/B]

The call of port was most likely scheduled long before Libya changed the requirements.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

I heard some 'scuttlebutt' a while back that Gaddafi had set up a photo booth at the port and for 4 Libyan dinars (approx. 5 bucks USD) you could get a picture with "A dictator". Anyone know?

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[eh2zed]

While I have my doubts about the PR and customer service people in Seattle, I've no doubt about the efficiency of the bean counters - and if they weren't making money by stopping in Libya then it wouldn't be happening.

Would I book a cruise with a port stop in Libya? It would depend on the totality of the itinerary.

Would I plan to tour the port? Most likely not.

Would I get my knickers in a twist over the situation? Definitely not. HAL can schedule port stops in Hades if they want, and I'll book the cruise if it's an itinerary that's interesting enough.

After all, if we only booked cruises that stopped places we didn't have political "situations" with, then almost all European and Pacific cruises would be out as would many Caribbean ones. And I'm not sure about those that stop in Canada or Mexico.
Dave, you can still port in Canada and get off the ship as long as you spell "neighbour" correctly.:D :D

[boards]

Isn't a visa only necessary if you are going to be staying in the country for a period of time, not just for a tour off a cruise ship? We are Canadians and not particularly interested in going there. We will not be getting off the ship if it does stop there.

[hammybee]

Ahoy!

I heard some 'scuttlebutt' a while back that Gaddafi had set up a photo booth at the port and for 4 Libyan dinars (approx. 5 bucks USD) you could get a picture with "A dictator". Anyone know?

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

Don't know about the tator part.:cool:

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

Don't know about the tator part.:cool:

Good one.

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[jhannah]

Isn't a visa only necessary if you are going to be staying in the country for a period of time, not just for a tour off a cruise ship? Not always. Russia requires a visa for cruise ship visitors. If you're on a tour (i.e., Denrus, Red October) they handle that for you. If you're going off on your own, you'll need to obtain the visa before you leave home.

[Two if by Sea]

For SOME people, at least SOME of the time, the point of their cruise is to visit new and different places. Places that are NOTHING like the United States, or Canada, or Western Europe -- from which the vast majority of cruise ship travelers hail.

Libya would be one such place, surely.

So would Antarctica. Dangerous for completely different reasons.

If everyone played it safe all the time, we'd all be in bed all day.

[m steve]

Micky Arrison should never allowed any of the Carnival Corp ships to stop there. Is he so money hungry that he will go anywhere? What about all his involvment with Isreal? He seems to be a big Republican booster and going to Lybia is just wrong. Same for almost any of those countries who want to destroy Isreal.

[Jsipes]

Holy Cow !! What person in their right mind would get off the ship in Libya anyway??? I guess I'm a wimp too....I like living too much to go walking around in Libya.:) :) :)

[dakrewser]

Dave, you can still port in Canada and get off the ship as long as you spell "neighbour" correctly.:D :D

Eh? Can a get a donut at Tim Horton's, then?

;)

[JimVrhovac]

This is not HAL rules. They are Lybian rules and they are a soverign country and have the right to make up their rules for entry into therir country.

Ruth & Jim

[cosi]

I never understand why people get so angry about things like this--I remember awhile ago the same discussion about Columbia.
I do know that Costa does sail to Libya--but warns that citzens of some countries or with some stamps on their passports should not book the cruise.

If you don't want to go somewhere book a different trip. I did make that choice recently because there were ports on a HAL itinerary that I was not comfortable with, so I booked something different.

We can't get angry at cruiselines (that are foreign flagged) or airlines that happen to transport people all over the world. We can't eliminate all countries that don't get along with us--or each other. We can only make choices that for ourselves. Remember when the last place you would ever consider going was Russia, China---or Vietnam?


Very simple, it is discrimination and I always get upset when I see it. If Libya would demand the same of all the guests it would not be the same but just singling out the Americans and the Israelis that is just plain noxious and for that reason we should make our displeasure known.

Incidentally HAL is an American company!

[cosi]

Sorry if there are misspellings in my text but my mother tongue is not English.

[NoNoNanette]

Very simple, it is discrimination and I always get upset when I see it. If Libya would demand the same of all the guests it would not be the same but just singling out the Americans and the Israelis that is just plain noxious and for that reason we should make our displeasure known.

Incidentally HAL is an American company!

If you were familiar with the politics between Israel and Libya, you would understand why Libya wants no part of our tourism dollars.

[dakrewser]

Very simple, it is discrimination and I always get upset when I see it. If Libya would demand the same of all the guests it would not be the same but just singling out the Americans and the Israelis that is just plain noxious and for that reason we should make our displeasure known.

Incidentally HAL is an American company!

Here's a solution for you: DON'T GO, and send the Libyan Ambassador a note explaining why. His address is:
2600 Virginia Avenue NW – Suite 705
Washington, DC 20037
phone number 202-944-9601
fax number 202-944-9606

Oh, and let other people decide for themselves if they'd like to go or not.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

You can also forward your thoughts on this matter to Muammar's official web site. Hope this helps.

http://www.algathafi.org/html-english/index.htm

Now, LET'S CRUISE!

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[cdkempton]

An interesting fact: On our roll call for a cruise in April which is supposed to stop in Libya, out of approximately 60-64 cruisers, I count about 26 that are U.S. citizens. The rest are all from other countries. Some are very anxious to tour Libya. HAL says that all who want to go ashore in Libya must do so with a HAL excursion. We won't know if the stop will be made until much closer to sailing if even then. I wouldn't mind a change of port but others are looking forward to it.
Happy sails..

[hammybee]

Holy Cow !! What person in their right mind would get off the ship in Libya anyway??? I guess I'm a wimp too....I like living too much to go walking around in Libya.:) :) :)

Me !

Whether or not, I am in my right mind, in a topic of debate.:D

[Opinions]

[Incidentally HAL is an American company!

HAL is NOT a American company!

[PRINSENDAM]

We are on the same page.

I do not claim to know what is correct :o

I am curious if any HAL ship has actually docked there.


Yes, HAL ships regularly call at Tripoli. I've been there on both ROTTERDAM and old NOORDAM... a couple of years ago mind you. I guess 90% of our passangers went ashore and enjoyed the visit. As for Ruth and I... UK and Australian passprts... we didn't bother going ashore!
I'd rather call at Sicilian ports or Malta.

Stephen

[PRINSENDAM]

Very simple, it is discrimination and I always get upset when I see it. If Libya would demand the same of all the guests it would not be the same but just singling out the Americans and the Israelis that is just plain noxious and for that reason we should make our displeasure known.

Incidentally HAL is an American company!

Kettle calling the pot black? US Dept of Immigration does not treat all foreign visitors to the US in the same manner.

Stephen

[hammybee]

HAL is NOT a American company!

Straight from CCL's 10K filing, with the SEC/ The last corporation is the one who sells cruises in the U.S.

HAL Antillen N.V. Netherlands Antilles
(1) HAL Beheer B.V. Netherlands
(1) HAL Buitenland B.V. Netherlands
(1) HAL Cruises Limited Bahamas
(1) HAL Marine N.V. Netherlands Antilles
(1) HAL Maritime Ltd. Netherlands Antilles
(1) HAL Nautical N.V. Netherlands Antilles
(31) HAL Nederland N.V. Netherlands Antilles
(5) Holland America Line Paymaster Corporation Washington
(1) HAL Properties Limited Bahamas
(1) HAL Services B.V. Holland
(3) Holland America Line Inc. Delaware
(1) Holland America Line N.V. Netherlands Antilles
(4) Holland America Line-Westours Inc. Washington

[PRINSENDAM]

ROTTERDAM's 1993 Grand Orient & South Pacific cruise called at Bejing. On arrive the authorities decided that no American crew members would be allowed off the ship. This involved the cruise and shore ex staff. Everyone else, passengers and crew, regardless of nationality, were allowed ashore. A few of us felt this wasn't right and decided that if the staff couldn't go neither would we. We thought that the 900+ American passengers on board would have something to say about it as well. They did. They said that they had paid for the cruise and wanted to go ashore and if a few of the cruse staff that happened to be American couldn't go then it was tough luck! They went ashore and those of us who decided to stay and those who had to stay had a great party!

Stephen

[Opinions]

Straight from CCL's 10K filing, with the SEC/ The last corporation is the one who sells cruises in the U.S.

(1) Holland America Line N.V. Netherlands Antilles
(4) Holland America Line-Westours Inc. Washington
[/I]

Since Holland America Line-Westours changed their name in 2002 it's obvious that's straight from a old 10K...Check the latest 10K on the Carnival Corp. website( Exhibit 21)...It's obvious that Holland America Line is not a American company, regardless of who and where they sell their cruises.

[eh2zed]

Eh? Can a get a donut at Tim Horton's, then?

;)
Alright you trumped me. Good going Dave. Spelling "neighbour" correctly gets you a double chocolate but pronouncing the last letter of the alphabet "zed" gets you an apple fritter.

[hammybee]

Since Holland America Line-Westours changed their name in 2002 it's obvious that's straight from a old 10K...Check the latest 10K on the Carnival Corp. website( Exhibit 21)...It's obvious that Holland America Line is not a American company, regardless of who and where they sell their cruises.

Let's try this from a different angle. This is from the cruise contract:

"HAL" refers to Holland America Line Inc., a Washington (U.S.A.) corporation that acts as the agent of Owner and the other HAL Companies."

Are you are referring to the ships' owners/charterers and registry?

[Copper10-8]

A little more feedback on the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and Col. Mu'ammar
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/2003945210_weblibya.html

[tomtal]

Prinsendam - I love your attitude. Would like to think I would do the same. It's not for me to decide what others will do - only know what my conscience tells me and try to stick by that.

[cosi]

....... A few of us felt this wasn't right and decided that if the staff couldn't go neither would we. We thought that the 900+ American passengers on board would have something to say about it as well. They did. They said that they had paid for the cruise and wanted to go ashore and if a few of the cruse staff that happened to be American couldn't go then it was tough luck! They went ashore and those of us who decided to stay and those who had to stay had a great party!
Stephen[/quote]


BRAVO, I admire people who have principles and do what is right and not just of what they want.

[cosi]

In 1989, HAL became a wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corp., the largest cruise company in the world. Today, the premium cruise leader operates 13 ships to seven continents and carries nearly 700,000 cruise passengers a year.

[bishop84]

Very simple, it is discrimination and I always get upset when I see it. If Libya would demand the same of all the guests it would not be the same but just singling out the Americans and the Israelis that is just plain noxious and for that reason we should make our displeasure known.

Incidentally HAL is an American company!

Kettle calling the pot black? US Dept of Immigration does not treat all foreign visitors to the US in the same manner.

Stephen

I agree with Stephen but this is not just a Libya and US situation. Every country in the world has restrictions on who can enter their country. Refusals can be based historical, economic and political reasons among many others.

Cruises are scheduled years in advance and local restrictions for various nationalities may be added after the call is planned. Rearranging port calls is not as easy as some people think, especially with the growing congestion in popular ports of call. Also how many complaints would HAL receive if they canceled the call in Libya only to see the restrictions on Americans lifted before the actual call?

[bishop84]

In 1989, HAL became a wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corp., the largest cruise company in the world. Today, the premium cruise leader operates 13 ships to seven continents and carries nearly 700,000 cruise passengers a year.

Carnival Corporation is incorporated in Panama!

[terrydtx]

What is the big deal here? Just boycott any cruises that make a stop in Libya and when the ships sail half empty with no US citizens ecconomics will take over and force Carnival Corp. to discontinue this port on future itinerraries.

[Opinions]

Let's try this from a different angle. This is from the cruise contract:

"HAL" refers to Holland America Line Inc., a Washington (U.S.A.) corporation that acts as the agent of Owner and the other HAL Companies."

Are you are referring to the ships' owners/charterers and registry?

I am referring to the Holland America Line on whose ship I will be sailing this April...Not to a "agent" of them...The Carnival Corporation (owners of HAL) in their 10K makes it quite plain they consider it and their subsidiaries as foreign companies...As a result they do not have to pay the same taxes and follow the US labor laws as American corporations...You are certainly entiled to have a different opinion.

[hammybee]

I am referring to the Holland America Line on whose ship I will be sailing this April...Not to a "agent" of them...The Carnival Corporation (owners of HAL) in their 10K makes it quite plain they consider it and their subsidiaries as foreign companies...As a result they do not have to pay the same taxes and follow the US labor laws as American corporations...You are certainly entiled to have a different opinion.

The HAL that sold you your cruise is a U.S. corporation. That was my only point.

I don't think our respective points have much to do with the topic, but it's been fun, chatting with you.:)