Joining Hands and Praying Before Meals

[Anorak33]

To develop what RevNeal was asking in his poll - and I also thought it inappropriate to state anything in the original thread which started this all off -

If tablemates on your cruise asked or expected you to pray before eating and join / not join hands while doing so what would your reaction be?

Its a private poll so vote away!

[RuthC]

I would never impose my beliefs on others at the table and expect the same courtesy in return.
I would stay through the meal, but whether or not I ever returned to the table would depend on how those who initiated the practice reacted when I respectfully decline.

[DFD1]

Interesting.....We join hands when giving thanks at family meals, even with extended family where we all know each other well, but not in a restaurant or other enclosed public place. I don't think I would feel comfortable joining hands in the ship's dining room with people whom I did not know. Giving thanks individually in any reasonable way a person wished, on the other hand, would cause me no problem and I would certainly remain silent and respectful during the process.

[sail7seas]

Ruth expressed my opinion......I agree with what she said.

[klheckman]

I feel impelled to tell you about what happened to us on the Oosterdam. My husband and I were on the cruise of a "liftetime" to Alaska. We left from Seattle on July 3rd. This was our first cruise ever, and we knew no one on board. The first night we met our eight tablemates at dinner. Before the main course was served, one of the tablemates, Mike, asked everyone to hold hands and say a prayer. My husband and I are Christians, so we thought this bold, but very great! We didn't have much of a chance to talk to Mike and his wife, Elsie, since they weren't seated next to us. The next night however they sat across from us. We got a chance to talk to them. They do prison ministry in Arizona. We talked until we were the only ones left in the dining room, so Mike suggested we go to the lobby to continue our conversation. We told Mike and Elsie about our lives, how my husband, Bruce, is searching for a new purpose in his life with his work, and our two children, Jeremy who is 21 and my daughter, Micah, who was 18. We asked them to especially keep Micah in their prayers because she had just graduated early from high school and moved to a small town in Nebraska where my husband's family lives. She had her own apartment and was trying to figure out what to do next with her life. At that point, Mike told us that they were originally scheduled to go on a Christian cruise, but they felt the Lord leading them to the Oosterdam. They decided to follow what they were feeling, and just asked God to put them at a table with people who needed them. Then Mike looked at us and said he felt God put them on the Oosterdam for myself and my husband. I thought, "wow, ok.. maybe over the course of the week we can figure out with their help what God wants my husband to do with his life, and they can continue to pray for Micah and her life,etc.". We said goodnight and each went to our staterooms. I fell asleep, and at 1 am the phone rang. It was my husband's brother from Nebraska telling us that our beautiful daughter, Micah, had been in a car accident. They were flying her to the medical center in Scottsbluff and that her heart had already stopped once. We ran down to the main office and started the process of getting off the ship. We were in the middle of Alaska... we even lost communication with our family for six long hours during the night. We asked the staff to please find Mike and Elsie. We didn't even know their last names, just that they were seated at table 25 on the upper late seating. They finally found them. When Elsie got to us, she was sobbing, and just said " NOW I know why the Lord wanted us to be on this ship". They stayed with us and prayed with us and helped us while we tried to get off the ship and back to Nebraska to be with our daughter. We did finally get off the ship at 9 am. A fishing boat came alongside the Oosterdam and we were able to climb down a rope ladder and get to Yukatat, Alaska. We were able to get on an Alaska Airlines jet to Anchorage. While on the plane, we were given a snack tray, and on the tray was a little card from Alaska Airlines with a picture of a sunset and the verse "Give thanks to the Lord for He is good, His love endures forever". I just looked at my husband, knowing God was speaking to us. We finally made it 36 agonizing hours later to my daughter's bedside. They kept her on life support until we got there, so we were able to kiss her and hold her and tell her how much we loved her before she left us to be with her Savior in heaven. She was honestly my life, my Micah Danielle, and my heart is broken. But our faith remains strong. We believe in a God that loved us so much that he sent Mike and Elsie to us so we wouldn't be alone when He took our girl to be with Him! I sob everyday because I miss her so much, but God is still a great God. He gives eternal life life to those who will just be sorry for their sins and accept His FREE gift of eternal life! I just wanted to share this story with all of you. Especially those who may have been on the Oosterdam and either saw us getting off onto the fishing boat, or heard the story.

In Him,
Kris

[elmorejj]

I hope I will not experience this as we always sit at a table for two, but if I did, I would sit through ONE meal then ask the Maitre D to find me another table. I have no problem with people and their beliefs, that is what makes this such a great country....freedom of religion....but don`t impose your beliefs on me....Thank you very much......jean :cool:

[sail7seas]

Has anyone else been at a table when someone suggested the whole table should pray?

[Lovebirds]

I think proper ettiquete dictates that we do not offend our fellow passengers. Unless you know all of your table mates and know that their religious beliefs are the same as yours, it would be extremely ill mannered to ask others to join you in prayer. If I were asked to join hands in prayer at dinner, I would politely tell the person that I would prefer that each person be allowed to express their religion or not express it as they wish and not be pressured into a group expression. I wouold then bow my head for a silent prayer and continue with the meal.

Coming from a family that includes several ministers, I'm quite accustomed to group prayers at family gatherings. But I cannot imagine asking a group of strangers to join hands and pray.

After getting acquainted it might turn out that all of the tablemates would like to do this, and that would be fine. There might even be some at adjacent tables that would wish to join.

Remember, the basic tenet of any religion should be respect for the rights of others to be different. Unfortunately, there are too many zealots of all religious stripes that feel that they must impose their beliefs on all others. I guess it has always been that way and probably always will.

[Nliedel]

I am not Christian and while I am not offended by the rights of others to worship their God as they see him/her I am offended when I am made to feel left out of a public event because I do not feel as others do.

If asked I would politly decline but encourage them to pray as they see fit. If they were hostile towards myself or my family I would ask to be moved and I would probably be vocal about the reason why. If they started loudly praying for my soul I would also asked to be moved.

It is an interesting question because at the moment I am writing this I am in a Catholic Hospital (excellent hospital btw) on day 37 (no, that is not a typo), trying not to have a preemie (we are at week 30) and have had a lot of people (I do not push my faith nor will I discuss it but it is mentioned in my birth plan) offer to pray for me etc. I explain I do not share their faith but welcome prayers and most are nice and considerate.

I would no more ask others to pray in my manner than I would expect to pray in the manner of someone else.

I am always considerate of the faith of others I feel honored and blessed when I am treated with like courtesy.

Nancy

[jb3bb]

klheckman, I am so sorry about your loss. I will be thinking about you. bb

[Spot]

Prayer and Faith are IMHO personal and therefore I would feel uncomfortable should this suggestion be made at a table I was assigned.

[Mary Ellen]

I didn't vote as I don't know if we would go along ONCE and then move to a different table for the rest of the cruise or decline and then move for the rest of the cruise. I wouldn't want to make them feel as uncomfortable as they made us feel. Either way, we would be asking to be seated at a different table because of their lack of respect for others.

[sail7seas]

Nancy....Best wishes to you for a healthy baby. Hope Mom and baby do fine.

[Globaliser]

I believe that this discussion (like revneal's thread) has grown out of the very sad story already told on another thread by klheckman, to whom I also extend my deepest sympathies.

However, I would think it entirely inappropriate for anyone to suggest this to tablemates on the first night of a cruise unless it had already become clear that everyone would welcome this. Even many people who are committed Christians would feel very uncomfortable if asked to do this in public but would also feel too embarrassed to refuse. The request itself puts such a person into an intolerable personal dilemma from which they cannot escape. That is not a particularly Christian thing to do. If a table were to adopt this, it would be better if it happened after some discussion and investigation of everyone's beliefs and attitudes.

[sail7seas]

Good points IMO . But, it seems someplace along the way I learned there were three subjects best not raised when meeting new folks......money, politics and religion. I would not wish to even have the conversation as to whether I would approve of a group prayer at the table. I do not think the subject of religion should be raised at all at the dinner table on a cruise ship when seated with people you are just meeting.

[ekerr19]

Double post - sorry

[ekerr19]

Good points IMO . But, it seems someplace along the way I learned there were three subjects best not raised when meeting new folks......money, politics and religion.

Not discussing these three subjects just might be applicable to these boards too! IMO :D

[elmorejj]

My father also told us never to discuss politics, money or religion, I try to keep to that....jean :cool:

[Slinkiecat]

"Not discussing these three subjects just might be applicable to these boards too! IMO"

Well, maybe religion and politics, but I can see plenty of situations in a cruise forum where the discussion of money comes up and is very relevant. Tipping, for instance, and discussions of shore excursions, transportation, etc. Otherwise, personal connections to money might prove awkward in conversations with strangers.

Slinkie

[Cruising Jake]

I would probably join in once - probably depending on how the request was handled. And I don't know if I would sit there again or not. That would depend on how the rest of the conversation went.

[jazzsea]

We have been asked to join in prayers at meals a few times. Twice on a cruise ship and other times at "Inns or Bed and Breakfasts". While not offended, I do think that it takes alot of nerve for someone to sit at your table and then decide that the table should pray.

With family and friends it is okay. With complete strangers? I don't think so.

[stillfrantic]

We have friends who always silently bow their heads and pray before any public meal. They have never asked us to join them, and we respectfully allow them their very very brief moment. I have no problems with that. I went to lunch with a friend, a deli counter service sort of place. When our sandwiches were ready, we brought them to the table and while chit chating, I started to eat. She kept chit chating then asked me to join hands for our prayer. I have to say, I was a bit uncomfortable. Perhaps it was that she is a vastly different religion than I, perhaps it was the public nature, perhaps it was that half my sandwich was already gone and my mouth was still full! She said the prayer, which was very nice. Next time, I think I'd be more prepared. On a cruise, with a table of strangers, I might go along the first time, then ask to be moved. I was uncomfortable, but for a dear friend. I'm not sure I would make my husband that uncomfortable(which he would definately be) for a table of near stangers.

[ekerr19]

"Not discussing these three subjects just might be applicable to these boards too! IMO"

Well, maybe religion and politics, but I can see plenty of situations in a cruise forum where the discussion of money comes up and is very relevant. Tipping, for instance, and discussions of shore excursions, transportation, etc. Otherwise, personal connections to money might prove awkward in conversations with strangers.

Slinkie

Slinkie-

You are so right! I was thinking more in the context of personal finances... :)

[Cruiseoften]

Good points IMO . But, it seems someplace along the way I learned there were three subjects best not raised when meeting new folks......money, politics and religion. I would not wish to even have the conversation as to whether I would approve of a group prayer at the table. I do not think the subject of religion should be raised at all at the dinner table on a cruise ship when seated with people you are just meeting.

I couldn't have said it better, sail7seas!

We did once sit at a table where a couple joined hands and said a few words (quietly, almost to each other) before each meal. We noticed them in the Lido as well. Thinking back, seem to recall that they came to the table ahead of we other (3) couples. Our dinner conversations were all enjoyable and we frequently saw and acknowledged them in one lounge or other

[kryos]

I don't think I would feel comfortable joining hands in the ship's dining room with people whom I did not know. Giving thanks individually in any reasonable way a person wished, on the other hand, would cause me no problem and I would certainly remain silent and respectful during the process.
Ummmmm, may I ask why you would feel uncomfortable? Please ... I am not trying to cause a problem here. I am genuinely curious.

I am a relatively new Christian and I would love it if someone invited me to join hands for a short prayer before a meal. Unfortunately, because I am not mature in my faith, I would feel too self-conscious to make the suggestion myself, and generally just bow my head quietly at mealtimes in public places.

But, the pastor of one of the radio ministeries I listen to here made a good point about prayer in restaurants at mealtimes. You don't know who cooked that food ... what issues they are dealing with. If you were inclined to say grace anywhere, it should be in a public restaurant. "Lord, if they put something bad in here, please take it out. Sanctify this food ... make it safe and healthy for me to eat." LOL ... I honestly had to say ... I never looked at it that way before ... but he makes a great point. :)

Blue skies ...

--rita

[dakrewser]

But, the pastor of one of the radio ministeries I listen to here made a good point about prayer in restaurants at mealtimes. You don't know who cooked that food ... what issues they are dealing with. If you were inclined to say grace anywhere, it should be in a public restaurant.
That's fine, and should you desire to call on your deity to bless your food, then please do so. But I don't know of any diety who requires you to have an ostentatious outward display in front of strangers. Nor do I know of any diety who requires that you embarass others.

But if that's not enough, consider a table for 8 with 4 couples. Two "committed Christians", two Roman Catholics, two Moslems and two Jews. By the time every one sat patiently waiting for the others to finish their pre-meal prayers the baked alaska parade would be over!

And also remember Christ's admonition about the hypocricy of the Pharasees: "The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten in the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say and do not. For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men's shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them. And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes. And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues. And salutations in the market place, and to be called by men, Rabbi" (Matt., xxiii, 1-8).

[jplewis]

I hope the lady who lost her daughter is off the boards and not reading this. All she did was share her experience. She didn't ask anyone to agree or disagree. I am sure she is in enough pain without thinking she stirred up a hornet's nest, which I am sure she did not intend to do.
If this had come at another time it would not be so bad but to insert her story into the middle of the thread seems very uncaring to me.
I would hate to think I had lost a child and people had used it to start a poll.
This is of course, my humble opinion.
Patsy

[dakrewser]

I hope the lady who lost her daughter is off the boards and not reading this. All she did was share her experience. She didn't ask anyone to agree or disagree. I am sure she is in enough pain without thinking she stirred up a hornet's nest, which I am sure she did not intend to do.
If this had come at another time it would not be so bad but to insert her story into the middle of the thread seems very uncaring to me.Umm, she inserted it herself. So please save your condemnation until it's warranted. Nor has anyone said anything negative about her experience, nor has anyone said she was wrong.

We're discussing an action and how we would deal with it on board. If that makes you uncomfortable, I'm sorry. Certainly everyone I've seen in this thread is treating it as a serious topic for sober reflection.

[mhshapiro]

I don't want to get into arguments over religion, but I would like to mention that in the closed environment of a cruise ship it is not a good idea to be joining hands immediately before you eat. This is one of the ways in which the Norwalk virus is spread.

[stillfrantic]

Patsy: I guess it was Mrs. Kleckman's story that likely spurred the topic, but I don't think it is offensive to the family. Everyone here was touched by her story and I suspect her faith has led others to strengthen theirs. No one here inserted her story into the thread, she posted it here for those who might have missed it. It certainly is a pertinant answer to the origional poster's poll.

I didn't find the poll to be a debate, per se, but more of an interesting discussion of religious tolerance, respect for other's expressions of faith, and faith in general.

I hope none of this upset Mrs. Kleckman nor you. I found it a more deep thought provoking topic than yet another dress code poll.

[kryos]

I don't want to get into arguments over religion, but I would like to mention that in the closed environment of a cruise ship it is not a good idea to be joining hands immediately before you eat. This is one of the ways in which the Norwalk virus is spread.
Excellent point! I never even considered that.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

Patsy: I guess it was Mrs. Kleckman's story that likely spurred the topic, but I don't think it is offensive to the family. Everyone here was touched by her story and I suspect her faith has led others to strengthen theirs.
I think this thread just started from a poll that RevNeal decided to take. I don't think there was any disrespect meant at all.

I think the God's Love on the Oosterdam thread was one of the most emotional pieces I've read on this board, and I have the greatest degree of respect for Mrs. Kleckman's courage in sharing it. I don't think anyone could have read that story without being deeply touched by it, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

This poll is, at least as far as I'm concerned, an entirely separate matter altogether, and just represents RevNeal's curiosity in gauging his fellow cruisers' feelings on an issue related to the overall cruise experience.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Tvisitor]

Ummmmm, may I ask why you would feel uncomfortable? Please ... I am not trying to cause a problem here. I am genuinely curious.

I am a relatively new Christian I am not a Christian. Here are two passages. I believe the second, but not the first. I have highlighted some language that should make it easy for you to understand what my discomfort might be:

John 3

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

But, then again, there is 2 Kings 18

1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah
daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD , just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

Now, if you believed the second passage, but not the first, you too would feel uncomfortable about joining in a prayer to, or in the name of, Jesus.

Peace

[azcruisingmom]

MY husband and myself pray before every meal, in a restaurant, on a cruise ship or at home. But when we are in public it is done quietly and no one else is asked or expected to join in. If they would like to fine if not that is perfectly acceptable.

[peaches from georgia]

I consider myself a religious person and practice my faith as much as anyone here, other than Revneal, I suspect.

However, for those that cannot sit down at a cruise dining table with perfect strangers, most probably several of whom are of other faiths or none at all, without having to vocally 'share' their religion's prayer with these tablemates, may I suggest a TABLE FOR TWO. :mad:

I am headed over to C@ and Cruisemates, but will check back periodically. When this proselytizing is finished will someone please post a thread to that effect. :rolleyes:

[HeatherInFlorida]

I can't believe I'm even responding to this question. I did not vote because I honestly don't know what I would do. I would certainly not leave the table that night, would probably join in just to be polite, but beyond that I'm simply not sure.

I agree with Sail and Ruth. Money, politics and religion are off limits. We've certainly stayed away from politics on these boards andfrom my experience discussion about religion is handled politely.

Since encouraging prayer at the table can make people uncomfortable , I don't think it's appropriate.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I also did not vote. Before we started requesting a table for 2, we were at tables for 4 mostly - once in a while - larger. But we were never asked to join hands in prayer before dinner. So I can't honestly say what we would do. Probably do it the first night and than refrane from doing it and explaining to our tables mates that although we are religious, we don't wish to hold hands in prayer at the table and ask that they honor our wishes and suggest that they hold hands - depending on how many are at the table.

[cruzincurt]

My opinion, keep your beliefs to yourself, who knows where those hands have been. Some people don't wash after using the facilities. Wouldn't bother me at all if two tablemates wanted to hold hands with each other and pray. Just leave us out of it.

Oh, and for "lovebirds" I don't know of any religions that tolerate other religions. In my mind, religion is the cause of the majority of wars in this world.

[kelmac]

Hats off to everyone! I think everyone did a good job handling this subject! I wasn't even tempted to make one of my "wise ass" comments. :D

Enjoy! Kel

[gliles]

I didn't vote either because I don't know what I would do. I guess as someone else posted, it would depend on how the rest of the dinner went. I do think the sanitation issue is something to think about. I am not a deeply religious person but I have my beliefs and keep them to myself.

[bookworm0911]

I wonder if those who are soooo enthusiastic about joining in prayers every night with their tablemates are making the assuumption that the prayers are going to be the same or similar to their own religion, most likely Christian???

Would they begin to give the same answer in the poll if the tablemates were Islam and the prayers were from the Koran? I dare say they might be in the maitre d's office at 8 AM the next morning or at least not so willing to hold hands and join in. :o

[temple10]

Hi friends, you know in other threads we are coving everyone bring your purell and use it often. with all the sickness they try to quarnitine on these big ships, no matter what your decision is on prayer Its the holding hands with people you don't know about in their cabin an hour earlier trying to stop the vomiting. and then don't want to miss out on wonderful things so come down to join in the company of the dining room. I think if all want to pray before eating is wonderful. and if they want to pray privetly in their cabins before coming down is wonderful. Who ever is your god won't mind if you pray a little early. I guess I am saying lets not take the chance of spreading that miserable virus. Christine:D

[HeatherInFlorida]

I also did not vote. Before we started requesting a table for 2, we were at tables for 4 mostly - once in a while - larger. But we were never asked to join hands in prayer before dinner. So I can't honestly say what we would do. Probably do it the first night and than refrane from doing it and explaining to our tables mates that although we are religious, we don't wish to hold hands in prayer at the table and ask that they honor our wishes and suggest that they hold hands - depending on how many are at the table.

KK, I think you put this beautifully. I think this would be the perfect way to handle it and I can't imagine anyone being in the least insulted.

[glrounds]

that I won't be seated with a group of religious fanatics that slop God all over everything like ketchup. Belief or disbelief in "supreme beings" is a very personal philosophical abstraction that has no place at a cruise ship dining table. (maybe in the cigar bar over a glass of fine sherry, and a Cuban MonteCristo with Wagner in the background from the string quartet :rolleyes: ). Critical philosophical analysis seems to flow freely and openly in that kind of setting ! :D

If someone at my table suggested such a thing, I would politely opt out and quietly respect those that participated. If everyone, but myself, participated in such an activity I would most likely ask to be seated elsewhere. :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

glrounds, now why don't you tell us how you really feel?:o

[Ziggy7]

I would not ask my table mates to do this but if asked to I wouldn't mind. To me sharing a prayer with others is like those who share a drink together with friends. Some drink and some pray. I too would not be offened if anyone refused. Life goes on either way. We all have the right to choose :)

[flatwallet]

Regarding sanitation, when first meeting your tablemates it is common courtesy to shake hands. How do you get around this if you are not wanting to touch others?

Our table on the Westerdam was DW and I, both Protestant, a couple from Russia now living in Montreal and a couple from Chicago. The religious preference of the other two couples is not known. I feel that if we had wanted to offer a blessing we perhaps would have said that we were going to offer a silent prayer and if they wished to join us they would have been welcome. Of course, a prayer can be said while waiting for food and it would not be obvious you were praying..just being quiet.

The Westerdan had many, many globular devices that dispensed sanitizer and it just dawned on me that this was to help prevent the virus.

[RevNeal]

I agree with Sail and Ruth. Money, politics and religion are off limits. We've certainly stayed away from politics on these boards andfrom my experience discussion about religion is handled politely.

I tend to agree as a general, but not hard-and-fast, rule. One of the most wonderful conversations I had on a cruise was with a Reformed Jewish Rabbi. We all got to know each other over several nights; we all also knew what each other did. Somehow, someway, we got onto the subject of religious communities (synagogue/church members) and the Rabbi and I ended up chatting for most of the rest of the night ... first at the table, then in the Explorer's lounge over port and chocolates. :) We've maintained contact ever since.

I understand that, at some point during the evening, the Rabbi's wife turned to Christopher and asked him if it would be worth it for them to wait for us, or should they go to the show by themselves. Knowing Christopher, he said something like "for get them, let's go." Whatever happened, I don't remember seeing them leave. :D

[RevNeal]

I think this thread just started from a poll that RevNeal decided to take. I don't think there was any disrespect meant at all.

This poll is, at least as far as I'm concerned, an entirely separate matter altogether, and just represents RevNeal's curiosity in gauging his fellow cruisers' feelings on an issue related to the overall cruise experience.


I didn't start this particular poll or thread ... you're confusing it with the other one which I did begin.

I began THAT one because of Mrs. Kleckman's testimony on yet another thread, and a now-pulled thread that addressed the issue of digby's post questioning the propriety of having others hold hands and pray at meals on ship.

And, yes, I am curious about my fellow cruiser' feelings on this issue at part of the over all cruise experience. It is also instructive to me, given that I periodically serve as a protestant chaplain for the line.

[kelmac]

Revneal,

Even though I'm not a Christian, I find you thoughtful, insightful and full of life! Your congregation is very lucky to have such a fine person watching over their spiritual needs. I hope to run into you on one of your cruise adventures! :D
Enjoy! Kel

[viennacruiser]

I was another who did not plan on responding to this thread....but..I wonder why someone would be uncomfortable with this, I would not be...I have seen others do this. But I guess when you have held someones hand when they died or helpled a mom hold her still born baby, watching someone pray or joining in seems easy...

[the2ofus]

I am impressed by the overall serious and sensitive way this topic has been discussed. I also did not feel that any particular religious agenda was being pushed, either by the author of the poll or by the respondents. I honestly do not know how/whether people who practice various non-Christian beliefs bless their food or give thanks for fellowship. I would like to learn.

I believe that we probably would refrain from joining in the vocal prayer, stating that we prefer our own silent blessing. We would definitely not join hands, as I believe that hand to hand contact is a major risk for infection on a cruise ship. (We normally carry hand-wipes and use them unobtrusively just before we begin eating.)

I would definitely find it offensive if a person I just met tried to pressure me into joining his/her religious practices without first learning a bit about me and about my own beliefs. That is just plain insensitive and rude. If the pressure about prayer and joining hands continued after the first night, I would definitely request a table change, and would politely explain why to my tablemates.

I really liked what Nancy said about religious practice some time back on this thread. I wish her well as her pregnancy progresses and will keep her and her baby in my thoughts.

[Nebraska Admiral]

After reading this, I just have to share my uncles favorite. Bless these three rolls for the four of us, thank the Lord there ain't any more of us.

[klheckman]

It's ok that my story started this poll. I have total respect for those who would not like to have prayer forced on them at dinner, and I of course understand how uncomfortable this would be for alot of people.

Thank you to all who have offered their support and prayers. Even the love of strangers means the world to us.

God bless.

[Nanner]

Rita, I also would feel that holding hands with folks I had just met at a dinner table was uncomfortable. I am not that free with my physical manifestations of friendliness, nor do I welcome others who approach me like a long-lost relative when I barely know them.

In addition, I am not Christian and would be upset that someone would presume that the entire table was of their religion. I would not make a scene, but if somebody at my table felt they needed to make a public display of prayer and include everyone else, I'd be out of there before the next meal.

I would have no problem with someone offering their own prayer in silence prior to eating or a twosome or family group just quietly offering their own prayer together. I guess I feel that prayer, like some other things in life, is most heartfelt at its most intimate expression.

[Lois R]

I didn't vote in the poll either.

[Finflapper]

I'm going on a cruise this October 30th. on the Serenade with my husband. My heart just sank after reading your post. You see, my 26 year old daughter has a pace-maker (since age 21) and she is presently experiencing arrythmias of 190 beats a minute and this has to be resolved quickly. I know I would be devasted for life if something happened to her (even with my belief in God). My heart goes out to you for your loss.

[taszmom]

Wording of the poll kept me from voting...I wouldn't "refuse" to join in, I would "choose" not to join in. Refuse is such a strong word and to me means to reject. I wouldn't reject to being asked to participate, afterall being asked would be the polite thing to do. Now if they insisted I participate, than I would refuse.

My vote would be to : choose not to participate and probably request to be seated at another table on the next evening.

[RevNeal]

Even though I'm not a Christian, I find you thoughtful, insightful and full of life! Your congregation is very lucky to have such a fine person watching over their spiritual needs. I hope to run into you on one of your cruise adventures!

Thank you, Kelmac ... I appreciate that! I always enjoy meeting people -- of all different kinds -- on my cruises. I've got lots of friends who are not Christians; some are Jews or Muslims, others are Buddhists, Wiccans, or spiritualists of some sort or other, and still others are agnostics or atheists. The more there are, the more interesting life is. :D

[Anorak33]

I am sorry I did not put even more choices on the poll but it seemed like it was getting a bit topheavy with 6 choices already. I tried to make it as neutral a poll as possible but maybe I could have worded it better. My apologies to anyone who thought that.

My sympathy goes to klheckman whose sad story gave RevNeal and myself the idea that we would like to know more about our fellow cruisers views on this subject.

Anyway the result of the poll so far seems to show that a significant minority WOULD be happy about joining in if asked BUT that an overwhelming majority would prefer NOT to do so .

[Ziggy7]

So did everyone read the blenders discussion ????
Did you hear about our experience with the front desk and a guy with his broken blender asking if they had any repair guys who could fix it for him ??? Hubby and I left the short line and went back to our cabin laughing, we meant no disrespect to this blender guy and as newbies prolly would have never thought twice about it till we read the Blender discussion :) Oh sorry wrong discussion hehehehe, well I had to share this cause it shows what was important to one person and was funny to 2 others but was not any less important to him. To each their own!

[Anorak33]

Err......... OK Ziggy - do you want to start another of these
oh-so-interesting polls entitled:

"Should HAL have a small domestic appliance repair shop on board?"

And why stop there - there could be a market for on board denture repairs, liposuction,cosmetic surgery, all sorts of other things.

[Boo's Mom]

Wow....great thread, ya'll!

Well, I am a Christian. Jesus Christ is my Lord and my Savior. I will not hestitate to share that fact with anyone.

Yes, my family prays, even at meal time. Yes, we pray when we are cruising. Yes, we always ask our tablemates to join us as we pray. My husband is always initiates this, as he is the head of our family.

We have been on four cruises as a family, and we have no knowledge that we have ever offended anyone by asking them to join us. Having read all of the prior posts about their strong desires to not pray....will this influence my decision to pray on a future cruise...or to ask our table mates to join us? No. We will continue to do so.

TVisitor....about the Bible verses you were referring to above: King Hezekiah caused for the sacred stones to be removed and the Asherah poles to be cut down, because these represented gods who were not the one true God, the God of Israel. These items did not represent true worship, which is why they were removed. This worship was very, very common back then (today, too!)....and is one of the reasons why God removed His Blessings from the people of Israel, allowing them to be held captive, etc... There were good Kings, who were sincere about wanting to lead the people in the way of the true God. Then there were not so good Kings, who led the people astray. Aaahhh...facinating history.

There is a saying (it's not a quote from the Bible): "If one really knows the Lord, he cannot help but share Him with others." I love this saying and I believe it to be extremely accurate. This is why Christians might pray aloud at your dining table. This is why they ask you to join them. They (and me! :D ) want to share Jesus with you.

Klheckman: I am so sorry for your loss. I will pray for you tonight!

Okay everyone else.... be nice now.

;)

[RevNeal]

there could be a market for on board denture repairs, liposuction,cosmetic surgery, all sorts of other things.

YIKES! Don't give HALHQ any new ideas!

[RevNeal]

There is a saying (it's not a quote from the Bible): "If one really knows the Lord, he cannot help but share Him with others." I love this saying and I believe it to be extremely accurate. This is why Christians might pray aloud at your dining table. This is why they ask you to join them. They (and me! ) want to share Jesus with you.

One of the best ways I know of sharing Jesus with someone -- i.e., showing Jesus' love, grace, and peace to others -- is by doing what Jesus told us to do: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."

Sadly, in our world today we find that most people would rather "do to others BEFORE they do unto them."

[Claire O'Brien]

Boo's Mom - you posted:

" Having read all of the prior posts about their strong desires to not pray....will this influence my decision to pray on a future cruise...or to ask our table mates to join us? No. We will continue to do so."

I am so sorry that even though you are now aware that you are likely to be unpopular with 3 out of 4 tablemates - you are going to carry on with your unwelcome behavior.

This shows a distinct lack of sensitivity and I pray that you may be enlightened about how uncomfortable you will be making other people.

Perhaps you should have a table on your own as a family or group.

Sharing is one thing - forcing your beliefs on others is quite another.

[Globaliser]

I was another who did not plan on responding to this thread....but..I wonder why someone would be uncomfortable with this, I would not be...I have seen others do this. But I guess when you have held someones hand when they died or helpled a mom hold her still born baby, watching someone pray or joining in seems easy...What about those people who are firmly non-religious and resent being asked to participate in anything religious? And what about those people who are religious but of some other religion? And what about those people whose Christianity is of a very private kind.

One doesn't need much imagination to see how all of them might feel uncomfortable.We have been on four cruises as a family, and we have no knowledge that we have ever offended anyone by asking them to join us. Having read all of the prior posts about their strong desires to not pray....will this influence my decision to pray on a future cruise...or to ask our table mates to join us? No. We will continue to do so.This is very unfortunate. It's one thing if you don't know that people might be offended or discomforted by you asking; it's another thing when you do know that people might be offended or discomforted, but you insist on forcing your religious practices on them nonetheless. This sort of behaviour gives a bad name to religion. It would be better to be more sensitive about the others around you - including the fact that they might also be too uncomfortable to refuse to join in.

[cruzincurt]

"Boo's Mom" I appreciate your beliefs. Why do some people feel that have to wear their beliefs on their sleeves for everyone to see? Your God is aware of your beliefs and actions, it's between you and Him. Do you see this as your need to minister to the rest of us heathens?

[Tinknock50]

Wow....great thread, ya'll!

Well, I am a Christian. Jesus Christ is my Lord and my Savior. I will not hestitate to share that fact with anyone.

Yes, my family prays, even at meal time. Yes, we pray when we are cruising. Yes, we always ask our tablemates to join us as we pray. My husband is always initiates this, as he is the head of our family.

We have been on four cruises as a family, and we have no knowledge that we have ever offended anyone by asking them to join us. Having read all of the prior posts about their strong desires to not pray....will this influence my decision to pray on a future cruise...or to ask our table mates to join us? No. We will continue to do so.



;)
Interesting...... so if I were at your table and, as I am a Catholic, I ask you to join us in saying 3 Hail Marys for a safe voyage, you would pray with me?

[jascruise]

My religiosity is a very personal matter and one which I do not choose to display in public. I would be very uncomfortable if I were asked to participate in pre-meal prayer in a cruise restaurant. I do not cruise to be placed in uncomfortable situations--we would have our table changed at the conclusion of that meal.

(Another poster noted that holding hands with strangers prior to eating might pose hygiene issues. The same thought had crossed my mind, but that's a secondary matter.)

[Nliedel]

and would share I understand that your faith compels you to do so but several people have posed the question and it has not been answered, about how you would respond if someone who was not Christian asked you to join hands and pray before the meal?

I do not share my faith with others. I am respectful of my faith and I also practice one which does not evangalise. I would never wish to make anyone uncomfortable by praying in my manner (which is not much different than anyone else's) in front of them. I also cherish my relationship with deity which is very personal to me. I would not want to put my faith up for riducule to other cruisers by inviting those who do not understand to mock my faith.

That said I am not denigrating those who feel the need to share, I just will choose not to spend time with you. It is my right and I ask that right be respected.

I do not question anyone's faith here and I want to make that very plain, however I have seen some people use their faith to make others feel left out, different and in effect bully those around them to believe as they do. Some people also have the idea that by converting others they will somehow win points with their faith towards a greater reward in the afterlife. I have seen this across all religious systems, not just Christianity.

There are several people who do not understand why it would make anyone uncomfortable to be asked to pray in the manner of a faith they are not a part of yet I suspect they would be very uncomfortable indeed if they were asked to participate in a religious prayer service that was not their own.

Religion is very private and very personal. Even within the tenents of the Christian Faith there are many differing beliefs that not all share or wish to be a part of. Honoring the faith of others is, imo, a wonderful way to honor your own faith. There are so many people in the world who want to share something so very personal with you, however I would not presume or assume any of them are at a table with you on a Cruise Ship.

Nancy

[ruvidu]

Hello All,
First off we are Christians who return thanks, say a blessing, before each meal no matter where we are.
On our last cruise, Alaska 2004, we and our good friends who were traveling with us did so at each meal. On the first night we explained to our other 4 table mates that we were Christians and it was our custom to say the blessing before we ate. We asked them to bare with us just a minute unless it would offend them. Both couples said they did not mind at all. When we raised our heads both couples were doing the same. One of the couples told us that they were Catholic and did not practice their beliefs as they should and were glad we did. When we were ready to leave the table the first night one of the couples asked us to pray for his suit cases because he had not seen them yet. We smiled and said we would. On the third night our table mates did not show up so we said our blessing and started eating then they came in. They could not believe we would say our blessing before they got there.
I have received many emails from this couple since we arrived home saying they remember us often in their prayers. We will take all we can get.
By the way. The couples suit cases were in their room when they got back.

We met several other couples on this cruise at breakfast who practiced as we did, heads bowed and a short prayer giving thanks offered up. We have never noticed anyone hold hands while doing so. We do this only with family around our home tables.

As a follower of Jesus Christ I try to follow his example of not forcing myself on anyone but also by not being ashamed of my belief.

Revneal, thanks for the thread.

Russ, a good ole Southern Baptist.

[RevNeal]

...several people have posed the question and it has not been answered, about how you would respond if someone who was not Christian asked you to join hands and pray before the meal?

Allow me to give it is shot. If I were a Christian at a table of non-Christians and they asked us to join hands and offer up a prayer to (let us say) Vishnu, I would join hands with them, bow my head, and sit silently while they prayed. As they prayed to Vishnu, I would pray to my Lord Jesus Christ. I would not be praying about them, but asking a blessing for the food I was about to eat and in thanksgiving for the day and for the honor of being right where I was. If asked by someone else what I was praying or to whom I was praying at that time, I would honestly answer that I was praying to Jesus. If asked if I were uncomfortable, I would say "not especially ... though I hope everyone has washed their hands before coming to the table." :)

Again, my concern regarding discomfort has been for OTHERS ... I am not, for myself, discomforted by being asked to participate in public prayer, but I understand that others are.

[taszmom]

It's all about being considerate. I believe anyone should be allowed to display one's belief as long as it does not cause harm to anyone. Listening to someone pray does not hurt me. Of course if they grabbed my hand, then that's another story. I don't believe that I am being forced to participate by being asked. I do have my own mind and know that I have the choice of not participating or finding another table.

I would only hope that if you choose to pray/hold hands at meal time with tablemates, that you would be polite and have a discussion prior to find out what religious beliefs I have. Then you would know where I stand and THEN I could choose to participate or not, or find another table.

[RevNeal]

Revneal, thanks for the thread.

:)
I'm not the originator of this particular thread. I started the "Religious Expression" thread, not the "Joining Hands and Praying Before Meals" thread.
:)

But thanks anyway. One of the E-mails I've recently received expressed anger at me for posting the "Religious Expression" thread/poll. They drew a connection between my posting and my being a minister, and that I shouldn't "always be talking about religion on a cruise board." I found that an interesting charge. I've been a member of CC for years, but this week was the FIRST TIME that I began a thread that was oriented around a religious issue. I've made references to religion in the past, and to my serving as a volunteer chaplain for the line; but, otherwise, my posts have been oriented toward CRUISE issues. Indeed, I found the charge interesting since, in the past, this same person has bashed me (in E-mails) for always posting on dress-code issues. I wish they'd make up their minds as to what I always post about. :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

Revneal, there's really something to be said for not giving access to your email address. As much as I would love to share mine with many of you, I don't for the simple reason that the next thing I know I'll be bombarded with emails from people who are not happy with me for one reason or another.

We all have varying opinions about so many things. We cannot possibly agree on everything. My personal belief is that threads about religion get a bit too heavy and this has nothing to do with my own strong personal religious beliefs. I just don't think this is the place to express them.

No one has a right to email you criticizing your expressed opinions and beliefs. I find that very bothersome and inappropriate.

[RevNeal]

No one has a right to email you criticizing your expressed opinions and beliefs. I find that very bothersome and inappropriate.

Actually, Heather, I disagree; people have a right to E-mail me about anything I've said or written. I MUCH prefer such criticism in E-mails rather than on a public board.

I've been a public figure for 15 years and I've had E-mail for 13 years. I'm used to getting emails from all sorts of people. I certainly understand your desire to keep your email private ... that is absolutely your right and I don't blame you a bit. But, for me, I don't mind having a public email address. Frankly, it's not been a flood of negative emails ... just a few. I've also had a few very appreciative and supportive emails ... so things even out. :)

[Thoth]

There are three points that should be brought out. #1) First Mike and Elsie( the praying couple) were mentioned as prison ministers. What can we deduct from this fact? If you think about it prison ministry is the sort work typical of Jesus himself and his closest followers. They aren't in it for the money, nor the prestige. The people they help will likely never be able to return the good favor. Mike & Elsie's lives will never turn out like in Dicken's "Great Expectation"! It is most likey that this couple has reached a high ethical purpose in their lives by dedicating themselves to the most despised and forgotten souls in our world. It would be a good bet that these are the sort of folks who would assist if you had nobody else to turn to.
#2) being asked to pray with someone at a dinner table is an act of INCLUSION, which is a positive in group dynamics. EXCLUSION is the thing that should be considered offensive.
#3) So far... 38 in this poll would stay at the table. 69 would leave the table?? 69 is quit a bit compared to 38. The words miscreant, callous, uncongenial, and snobbish comes to mind. Maybe I'm wrong?

[HeatherInFlorida]

Actually, Heather, I disagree; people have a right to E-mail me about anything I've said or written. I MUCH prefer such criticism in E-mails rather than on a public board.

I've been a public figure for 15 years and I've had E-mail for 13 years. I'm used to getting emails from all sorts of people. I certainly understand your desire to keep your email private ... that is absolutely your right and I don't blame you a bit. But, for me, I don't mind having a public email address. Frankly, it's not been a flood of negative emails ... just a few. I've also had a few very appreciative and supportive emails ... so things even out. :)
I hear you. But you misunderstood me just a bit. My email is very public in some arenas. I get literally dozens of emails from around the country everyday and frankly I love it.

I simply meant there is sometimes something nice about a little anonomity, but to each his own! As long as the negative stuff doesn't bother you (which I see it doesn't) then it's no problem. I'm a very sensitive person and it would upset me.

Thoth, remember as you analyze the poll that many of us posting said we didn't vote.;)

[Lois R]

hi.:) another reply.....just as I commented on the other thread....about being comfortable at your dinner table (or uncomfortable). If someone wants to pray or hold hands that is their option, but I don't feel like I should have to be uncomfortable for 7 nights of a cruise.

Thoth, did you mean those of us who don't want to sit at the table are snobs? I know I put my pants on the same way as everyone else, one leg at a time....If I prefer to sit elsewhere...why should that make me a bad person?
I am not judging anyone....if praying is part of their life, that is who they are...but its not part of mine.

[Jacqueline]

That's fine, and should you desire to call on your deity to bless your food, then please do so. But I don't know of any diety who requires you to have an ostentatious outward display in front of strangers. Nor do I know of any diety who requires that you embarass others.

But if that's not enough, consider a table for 8 with 4 couples. Two "committed Christians", two Roman Catholics, two Moslems and two Jews. By the time every one sat patiently waiting for the others to finish their pre-meal prayers the baked alaska parade would be over!

And also remember Christ's admonition about the hypocricy of the Pharasees: "The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten in the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say and do not. For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men's shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them. And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes. And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues. And salutations in the market place, and to be called by men, Rabbi" (Matt., xxiii, 1-8).

These are exactly my thoughts. And in the poll it seems that over 50% of those responding essentially would leave the table sooner or later rather than staying on politely. Statistically, many of these would be Christians, so I do not see this as an anti-religion response.
If one were on a Christian cruise, this would be a different story.
Personally, being a private individual I would/have felt uncomfortable with this scenerio. The folks who initiate this are usually well meaning but perhaps dont realize how insulting and uncomfortable this would make others feel, regardless of their religion
I guess to make the point I'd drop to my needs facing east and supplicate myself. That is indeed the cultural norm in a large part of the world. Would they want to join me ?

[Globaliser]

I MUCH prefer such criticism in E-mails rather than on a public board.Are you comfortable with compliments on a public board, though?

Over the last few months I've read much from you that I've admired for its good sense, humanity and wisdom, if I may say so. What you've said on this thread underlines all that. Thank you for being around and for all your contributions!

[RevNeal]

Over the last few months I've read much from you that I've admired for its good sense, humanity and wisdom, if I may say so. What you've said on this thread underlines all that. Thank you for being around and for all your contributions!

Wow ... thank you! :) I'm both honored and humbled. And, yes, those kinds of remarks are ALWAYS appreciated! :D

[trubey]

#3) So far... 38 in this poll would stay at the table. 69 would leave the table?? 69 is quit a bit compared to 38. The words miscreant, callous, uncongenial, and snobbish comes to mind. Maybe I'm wrong?
Miscreant? MISCREANT??? Good grief, man! For a nasty, bigoted, hypocrite, you take the CAKE!

How DARE you!

Lane Kimball Trubey

[mare s.]

I've been reading this thread with interest but didn't want to add anything that might set people off. However, Toth's post got to me. I am neither a snob nor am I callous...I just don't wish to be included in a rite in which I do not believe. I have a relative who recently became "born again" and is most zealous about his beliefs. He, too, insists that everyone join him in holding hands and saying grace. The first time it took me by surprise and I joined in. Then I was angry at myself for violating my own beliefs to make him happy. The next time, I politely declined. When he tried it again (and at my house to boot!) I just got up from the dining room table and exited the room!Religious beliefs (or non-belief) and religious rites are very personal and I think it is tactless at best to assume that everyone around you is comfortable in joining you in your personal expressions of faith. That being said, I am sure that the couple who led the prayer on the Oosterdam are wonderful, devoted people and it's obvious that one other couple, at the least, benefited from meeting them.

[ekerr19]

I had very good intentions to avoid posting here. But, you know what they say about good intentions...;)

I think it is very evident there are many differing opinions on this subject. I thought most of the posts (pro & con) have been respectful, giving reason for each - I figured it would only be a matter of time before the mud-slinging and name calling began - and so it did.

If you want to pray - pray to your hearts content. If I am asked to join in, I may decline, but would continue to be your tablemate. I have no issues with what anyone chooses to do, as long as my choice is also respected in return.

[bombero]

I'm with you Boo's Mom, and your welcome at our table anytime, if you'll let us join in and pray with you. :) . I just don't see how us praying together at the same table as others, or even in close proximity to others can be exampled, as shoving our beliefs down someone else's throat. It would seem just the opposite, that we must be silent and have their beliefs thrown on us :(


There is a saying (it's not a quote from the Bible): "If one really knows the Lord, he cannot help but share Him with others." I love this saying and I believe it to be extremely accurate. This is why Christians might pray aloud at your dining table. This is why they ask you to join them. They (and me! :D ) want to share Jesus with you. ;)

[HeatherInFlorida]

I had very good intentions to avoid posting here. But, you know what they say about good intentions...;)

I think it is very evident there are many differing opinions on this subject. I thought most of the posts (pro & con) have been respectful, giving reason for each - I figured it would only be a matter of time before the mud-slinging and name calling began - and so it did.

If you want to pray - pray to your hearts content. If I am asked to join in, I may decline, but would continue to be your tablemate. I have no issues with what anyone chooses to do, as long as my choice is also respected in return.EKerr, I'm with you! I just read back some of this thread that I had missed. Some of it is getting ugly which we could have guessed. This is why I did say earlier that I don't think this is the place to discuss our religious beliefs and why I've been careful not to discuss mine.

Now I've noticed something I missed before. I'm afraid I didn't read Thoth's post through and missed this part:

"So far... 38 in this poll would stay at the table. 69 would leave the table?? 69 is quit a bit compared to 38. The words miscreant, callous, uncongenial, and snobbish comes to mind. Maybe I'm wrong?"

Do you know I had to look up the word "miscreant"? I understand Lane's horror. I never like to offend anyone, but this post shows a complete lack of respect for everyone here.

There are all kinds of reasons people choose not to sit with other people. To suggest that if the reason for choosing not to is one of religion therefore makes the person "miscreant, callous, uncongenial and snobbish" is insulting and, frankly, completely over the top.

[merryecho]

I would be offended. I think the Bible says it better than I ever could:

MAT 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
MAT 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[the2ofus]

Bombero, I don't think the issue here is the act of praying at one's table, or in close proximity to the tables occupied by others. The question originally seemed to be how one would react if on the first night at dinner someone you had never previously met asked all at the table to join hands and pray aloud with him to his particular deity. Yes, I admire people whose faith is strong and sure, but I admire them even more when their good manners are equally strong.

To my way of thinking, in such a setting as a dining table on a cruise, each person has the right to offer prayers in whatever manner seems appropriate to them, as long as they do not apply pressure which makes others uncomfortable. To ask others to join in your form of worship without first learning about their personal beliefs would seem rude and insensitive to me.

Others have already offered illustrations - having no chance to learn of or discuss the practice, would non-Catholics feel comfortable being asked to join in reciting the rosary, would non-Muslims feel comfortable being asked to get on their knees and face Mecca and recite a prayer, would Hindus or Agnostics feel comfortable being asked to pray in a Christian manner. I believe good manners would require us to think of their comfort and offer a quiet personal prayer instead of public testimony.

It is my personal belief that there is one Supreme Being but that Being has many facets and there are many ways to connect with that Supreme Being, none of them being exclusively right or exclusively wrong. It is the human interpretation of the will of the Supreme Being that causes the wars in defense of religion, not religion itself.

Getting down off my soap box now :D

[stillfrantic]

.Where's the delete button!

[stillfrantic]

Here is a different take on the situation. What is you were introduced to your lovely tablemates and they asked you to pray with them. You gladly accept as you are a committed Christian. They proceed to get out of their chairs, go down on the floor and bow toward Mecca. Do you stay at the table, or do you see the Maitre'd?

Oops, looks like someone above just posed the same question while I was busy trying to figure out how to edit.:o

[the2ofus]

Stillfrantic, great minds........I like your light touch on this sensitive issue :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

Still Frantic, funny story. I just got an email in my box with a post by you that you have obviously since tried to delete:D . I've been 5 minutes trying to figure out if I'm crazy!!! Then I realized you must have edited in the meantime. So now I have to be very careful because I didn't realize they go out that fast! When I think of some of the stuff I've written and edited and now I know it went out there! :eek:

BTW, Purell isn't all it's cracked up to be from what I've read. That and anti-bacterial soap have been way overhyped and to rely on either one is a mistake. I've also read in my research that we are better off subjecting ourselves to a certain number of germs to better protect our immune systems.

I know it seems like this has nothing to do with anything, but what the heck.:rolleyes:

[stillfrantic]

Funny Heather! I decided it just didn't fit with the theme so much, even though, I'll now go ahead and say it outloud, "My name is Stillfrantic, and I HAVE pulled out a bottle of Purell in the church sancuary before.":D

[jascruise]

Not that you need my 2 cents*, but I have always found your posts to be decidely thoughtful, well reasoned and non-preachy--and look forward to reading them in future.

(*Whatever happened to the cents key on the keyboard? Is this inflation?)

[RevNeal]

. What is you were introduced to your lovely tablemates and they asked you to pray with them. You gladly accept as you are a committed Christian. They proceed to get out of their chairs, go down on the floor and bow toward Mecca. Do you stay at the table, or do you see the Maitre'd?


What happens if the ship changes course mid-prayer?
I'm serious.
Kinda.
;)

What would I do? I would get up, kneel down (for I have no trouble kneeling before the Lord and -- to me -- it wouldn't matter the direction) and offer my prayer to my Lord Jesus Christ. :) My arthritic knees might scream, but it wouldn't take long.
:)

Think about it ... my new Muslim friends are praying to Yahweh in the Arabic form ("Allah") of the generic term for God which, in Hebrew, is "El" and "Elohim." I'm praying to Him through the person and revelation of Jesus Christ. No big whoopti-do.

[sheldrvrT6A]

revneal
Just returned from business in Dallas. Lots of fine looking churches.
Jerry

[jhannah]

Thoth
\Thoth\, n. 1. (Myth.) The god of eloquence and letters among the ancient Egyptians, and supposed to be the inventor of writing and philosophy. He corresponded to the Mercury of the Romans, and was usually represented as a human figure with the head of an ibis or a lamb.

2. (Zo["o]l.) The Egyptian sacred baboon.

[Jacqueline]

Here's another twist- there are many gay couples on the cruises I have been on lately. Now lets put them at the table. And lets say that they are similarly enthusiastic BUT regarding displays of affection. After all, they were just married and its their honeymoon....
and the poll would read- The couple initiating the prayer
1) Is thrilled because we are all God's children
2) Politely ignores the PDA's and stays at the table. They definately are going to drop the *lets all join hands* request tomorrow night for sure !
3) Request a new table right away because this is against the word of the lord as their church interprets itb

BTW my daughter bunkmate at summer camp was both a lesbian and a follower of Wicca. I wonder what she would do at the dinner table ?

[stillfrantic]

Revneal, you're a better man than I. Well, I'm not a man, but a woman, but I digress.....:D....

I would NOT get down on the floor on the dining room for any reason. I have to figure, God will forgive me for saying a silent prayer at the table. If he won't, then clearly I'm going to hell, because I will not lay down on the floor in the middle of a dinner event.:eek:

[stillfrantic]

BTW my daughter bunkmate at summer camp was both a lesbian and a follower of Wicca. I wonder what she would do at the dinner table ? Holy Cow! Your daughter roomed with my former baby sitter!

[HeatherInFlorida]

(*Whatever happened to the cents key on the keyboard? Is this inflation?)I am so glad you brought this up!!! I've been wondering why no "cents" key, also! Got the $ key, no cents. Also missing is the "degree" key which I like to use when telling the temp! When I was a sweet young thing and we had typewriters we could just twist the roller a little and use the "o", but no more. Now these are important issues that ought to be addressed:)


Still Frantic, you are so funny:D ! LOL. Can't wait for my next cruise with people bowing, bending, holding hands, lying on the floor, everyone in different directions, and possibly praying to Neptune for all I know;) .

[RevNeal]

I would NOT get down on the floor on the dining room for any reason.

Ok ... you've dropped a crab leg and the 5 second rule DOES apply. :) Do you get down on the floor now????? :D

[Roboat]

Thoth
\Thoth\, n. 1. (Myth.) The god of eloquence and letters among the ancient Egyptians, and supposed to be the inventor of writing and philosophy. He corresponded to the Mercury of the Romans, and was usually represented as a human figure with the head of an ibis or a lamb.

2. (Zo["o]l.) The Egyptian sacred baboon.
:D :D :D I am in PAIN from laughing, Jim! Outstanding!!!!

[stillfrantic]

Ok ... you've dropped a crab leg and the 5 second rule DOES apply. :) Do you get down on the floor now????? :D Nope, I'll request late seating just so I could ask them to bring me ANOTHER crab leg. I wouldn't even lay down on the floor to entice the servers to bring me another lobster at early seating. I don't do floors.

[RevNeal]

Here's another twist- there are many gay couples on the cruises I have been on lately. Now lets put them at the table. And lets say that they are similarly enthusiastic BUT regarding displays of affection. After all, they were just married and its their honeymoon.

I think we've covered this one before. If I remember correctly the consensus was that, so long as the PDA wasn't anything more than straight couples expressed in public, most of us wouldn't have a problem with it. In other words, a gay couple dancing in a lounge or holding hands together wouldn't be considered out of bounds in public, but shagging on the table is another matter. :D

[RevNeal]

(Zo["o]l.) The Egyptian sacred baboon.

"There is no Dana, only Zool." ;)

"I am the key master."

[RevNeal]

I wouldn't even lay down on the floor to entice the servers to bring me another lobster at early seating. I don't do floors.

Let me know if you drop some Jewelry. :D

[Roboat]

I would be offended. I think the Bible says it better than I ever could:

MAT 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
MAT 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.Well, then how will everyone else at the table know how holy I am?
Is it OK if I just sort of casually mention it?;)

[Jacqueline]

My father who studied to be a priest, always said that in the Roman times , they would know the Christians by their love... I think that this is a case where actions speak louder than words. Thats a much bigger challenge to us than saying what we are,

[Roboat]

I think we've covered this one before. If I remember correctly the consensus was that, so long as the PDA wasn't anything more than straight couples expressed in public, most of us wouldn't have a problem with it. In other words, a gay couple dancing in a lounge or holding hands together wouldn't be considered out of bounds in public, but shagging on the table is another matter. :DSo THAT's why Bambi and I weren't invited back to the Captain's table! Thanks for clearing that up! :D

Good one rev!

And, though I didn't see the earlier discussion, I'm happy to hear you report that most HAL folks are reasonable on the issue of PDA by gay and straight couples.

[CDRMark]

RevNeal:

Devout Muslims who travel frequently carry a table of prayer times (now computerized) and a compass. This brings to mind a non-politically correct story aboard an aircraft at prayer time which (purposefully) went into a slow port bank....

It is deeds not words.
Cheers
MarkB

[Boo's Mom]

:)

Think about it ... my new Muslim friends are praying to Yahweh in the Arabic form ("Allah") of the generic term for God which, in Hebrew, is "El" and "Elohim." I'm praying to Him through the person and revelation of Jesus Christ. No big whoopti-do.


Muslim's and Christians do not pray to the same God. I respectfully disagree.

:rolleyes:

[HeatherInFlorida]

Muslim's and Christians do not pray to the same God. I respectfully disagree.

:rolleyes:
Forgive me, but there is only one God.

[CDRMark]

God of Abraham; same same.

[Florida Beach]

I don't want to get into arguments over religion, but I would like to mention that in the closed environment of a cruise ship it is not a good idea to be joining hands immediately before you eat. This is one of the ways in which the Norwalk virus is spread.
eeewwww:D

[DocJohnB]

But I guess when you have held someones hand when they died or helpled a mom hold her still born baby, watching someone pray or joining in seems easy...

Viennacruiser,

I have done both (and more than once) sometimes holding the hand of a complete stranger. I am never uncomfortable watching someone pray, but would be uncomfortable being asked by complete strangers to join in their prayers. I would be much more comfortable asking them if I could join them, if I so chose to do that.

[Boo's Mom]

Here is a different take on the situation. What is you were introduced to your lovely tablemates and they asked you to pray with them. You gladly accept as you are a committed Christian. They proceed to get out of their chairs, go down on the floor and bow toward Mecca. Do you stay at the table, or do you see the Maitre'd?



I would more than likely stay at their table. I would pray to the Lord Jesus. ...and I would be honored to get to know my new table mates.

My behavior would hopefully never be anything less of loving.

Going back more than 12 years..... I felt very similar to what most of you are feeling. I can empathize. (sp?) I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm not going to battle with anyone, as that would be inappropriate. I used to think that people who spoke about Jesus were wacko. I did.

Thank God, I have seen the Truth. And...as I look back, I am so thankful for all of those folks who were bold enough to speak of Jesus.

He is the Way and The Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through him. (This is a Bible Verse)

What does it mean? You cannot go to the Father (go to Heaven when you die) unless you know the Son (Jesus).

Whoa! I know that's a biggie. :p

We're adults now....let's have adult conversation, please!

[Boo's Mom]

Forgive me, but there is only one God.


You are right. But, we do not all worship Him.

God's come in all forms. Money can be a god. Fame can be a god.

[kryos]

[font=Comic Sans MS][size=3]I am so glad you brought this up!!! I've been wondering why no "cents" key, also! Got the $ key, no cents. Also missing is the "degree" key which I like to use when telling the temp!
Actually, those keys are not on the keyboard, but if you are using Word, and you go into Insert, and then Special Characters, you'll find them. :) They are also resident on certain fonts ... just not the standard one. You have to check a keyboard map for the font you are using and figure out which combination of keys make up those special characters.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[RevNeal]

Devout Muslims who travel frequently carry a table of prayer times (now computerized) and a compass.

Hey, that's good to know. Thanks Mark!

[Jacqueline]

I would more than likely stay at their table. I would pray to the Lord Jesus. ...and I would be honored to get to know my new table mates.

My behavior would hopefully never be anything less of loving.

Going back more than 12 years..... I felt very similar to what most of you are feeling. I can empathize. (sp?) I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm not going to battle with anyone, as that would be inappropriate. I used to think that people who spoke about Jesus were wacko. I did.

Thank God, I have seen the Truth. And...as I look back, I am so thankful for all of those folks who were bold enough to speak of Jesus.

He is the Way and The Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through him. (This is a Bible Verse)

What does it mean? You cannot go to the Father (go to Heaven when you die) unless you know the Son (Jesus).

Whoa! I know that's a biggie. :p

We're adults now....let's have adult conversation, please!

Heres the question for you then, what if they asked you to join them in praying to their beliefs ? Its easy if you are all on the exact same page. What if they felt it was important for them to prostelitize to you about their belief system ? Hey this is supposed to be a vacation not a revival meeting.
Is a cruise ship dining room really the appropriate time and place for this exchange ? Its not so much what you feel or the person asking you to pray feels but how is that respecting your fellow passengers?
It may be a bold move but i disagree that it is a brave one ! Christians are no longer being fed to the lions for their beliefs. In fact as the majority religion in our country it is more in a position of strength and favor. Being a muslim is really brave !

[RevNeal]

Muslim's and Christians do not pray to the same God. I respectfully disagree.

As a matter of history and theology, we do. We have different interpretations of God's will and nature, but even those who follow Islam acknowledge that Allah, whom they worship, is Yahweh Elohim of the Hebrew Bible, the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you should review your own Bible on the subject of whom the Ishmaelites worshiped. For instance, review Genesis 16.

[Boo's Mom]

[QUOTE=Jacqueline].
Is a cruise ship dining room really the appropriate time and place for this exchange ? [QUOTE]

I don't really see it as an exchange.

My family is going to pray. We are politely asking them if they would like to join us, as to not exclude them. I actually would feel very uncomfortable if we proceeded to pray without asking them to join us.

There is no forcing going on...no intended pressure. If someone declined to join us, we would respect their decision. We're actually nice folks. We don't bite. ;)

Thank you for your appropriate adult conversation. :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

Thank you, Revneal, for that post. I was going to tackle it again but you did it so much better than I.

[cruzincurt]

Well there you go "Boo's Mom" you've just revealed your haterd of others who don't believe in YOUR God.

Only YOUR God is the correct one. Typical, of "... I've Found God, Why Not You?"

[imsulin]

Boo's mom - somewhere along the line in your pursuit of history and religion, you were given some VERY INCORRECT information!!! The GOD of Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews is one and the same! Yahweh (Hebrew) is Jehovah (Christian) is Allah (Muslim). These three religions established their monotheistic beliefs way before your current church came into being! Jesus is NOT God! Jesus is the SON of God. Did you ever read the Old Testament? Many Muslims name their daughters "Maryam", after the mother of Jesus. Take some time and do a little historical research, because not only was your comment not true, I took offense at it, and I am a Christian.

BTW: I would personally feel very uncomfortable if someone at my dining table asked me to hold hands and pray to Jesus before I ate. Same thing if I were asked to observe Shabbat on a Friday night. Same thing if my dinner were interrupted for Muslim prayer time. I would never object to anyone practicing their faith, and will understand and tolerate. Just please don't ask me to hold hands and pray with you! I can do that on my own, thank you.

[Nliedel]

Technically... Islam and Christianity are both related as is Judaism... (Sorry to correct but the history of religion was my major)... All are related... I could go into boring, theologic detail, but... I won't... HOWEVER... that does not mean they are tolerant of one another... The differences are also fairly minute in the grand scheme of things (yes, yes to one of the believers they do not seem minute, I am talking from a general perspective here, as a theologin, not as a practicing member).. Philosophically speaking they are not as far apart as some would think.. That does not mean and does not imply you can substitute or that Islam is like X religion or Christianity etc... Just an observation from my studies..

Nancy

[cactuslady]

I've decided that the best course of action would be stand up just as the lobster tails were being served and begin loudly singing "Nearer My God to Thee." That should ensure that I get my fair share of the lobster tails, while the rest of the dining room clears out in a mad dash to the lifeboats. ;)

[Jacqueline]

Yikes, Imsulin, we agree. And look no typos..

[stillfrantic]

I've decided that the best course of action would be stand up just as the lobster tails were being served and begin loudly singing "Nearer My God to Thee." That should ensure that I get my fair share of the lobster tails, while the rest of the dining room clears out in a mad dash to the lifeboats. ;)
LOL!:D

[imsulin]

Ditto yikes, Jacqueline! We DO agree! (Just wondering if we should sing "Oh Happy Day" or the Naval Hymn "Eternal Father"???) heh heh. Good post, J, and thanks!~

Revneal - my sincere apologies for genuflecting backwards on purpose, spiking the Communion wine with vodka, and using those wafers as Frisbees. (!!)

[HeatherInFlorida]

I've decided that the best course of action would be stand up just as the lobster tails were being served and begin loudly singing "Nearer My God to Thee." That should ensure that I get my fair share of the lobster tails, while the rest of the dining room clears out in a mad dash to the lifeboats. ;)
Oh, cactuslady, well done!

Imsulin, I am with you 100% as well.

[imsulin]

Thenk yew verruh, verruh much, Heather! (My tribute to Elvis). :)

[Jacqueline]

Revneal - my sincere apologies for genuflecting backwards on purpose, spiking the Communion wine with vodka, and using those wafers as Frisbees. (!!)

I just KNEW you were a fellow bad girl !

[Beckey]

Like many others I was not going to get involved in this one BUT – as St. Francis said “Live your life preaching, use words when you must.”



My God is too large to fix into one religion. I choose to call him Jesus – when I get to heaven if his name is Buddha I am pretty sure he will cut me some slack. :rolleyes: Or, maybe his Mother will let me in the back door.

[imsulin]

Geez, Jacqueline.. now you KNOW I never did any of these things on purpose!! I was just kinda "sorely tempted"! (Don't EVEN ask me about my experiences at church camp!) :)!

[gliles]

My only contribution to this thread now is to say 'ALT 155' makes the ¢ sign.

[HeatherInFlorida]

My only contribution to this thread now is to say 'ALT 155' makes the ¢ sign.
¢ ..........and so it does!!!! Thank you, Gretchen:D . Now that's a contribution! I'm writing it down as we speak. Thanks again.

[gliles]

You are welcome, here are more so you don't have to write them down!


http://www.umass.edu/langctr/altnum.htm

äÙ¿ô}»ïæ»├^M±I±T±┘1▼◄§○xτ╝+► :eek:

[ekerr19]

God's come in all forms. Money can be a god. Fame can be a god.
Shucks - you found me out! ;)

Seriously, are you serious? I have been over exposed to religion all of my life - this is a first.

[MISSYLOU]

I voted that we would politely participate and probably stay at the same table but that would depend a great deal on what type of people they are and not their religious beliefs. If they wanted to spend the entire time talking about their faith then I would definitely change tables. I agree with the majority that religion is a very personal issue.

[Sailure]

Hmmm, I think if I were at a table and the whole table decided to hold hands and pray, I would probably first ask them if they were all in one group and tell them that maybe I shouldn't be seated with them as I wouldn't want to intrude. If they said, that they were not all together but would all like to pray, I would then thank them for giving me the opportunity to join them and then politely decline as it is my practice to give thanks to the center of my universe privately and then I'd politely ask them if they'd mind just bypassing me on this as I'd like to enjoy the meal I've already given thanks for.

I think when a group of people are sitting together (who don't know one another) and they are not part of a special group that they should not be so presumptuous as to believe that everyone at the table shares their religion or beliefs.

It reminds me of the story in the bible of the guy who goes to the temple and makes a big show of praying while the poor humble guy just prays silently....something about a camel going through the eye of a needle.....;)

[RevNeal]

Revneal - my sincere apologies for genuflecting backwards on purpose, spiking the Communion wine with vodka, and using those wafers as Frisbees.

Vodka and Grape Juice? Hmmmmmm ... that would make a very strange screw driver! :D

[Vicar]

REV
I used to bar tend and I came up with two really great drinks

One was Vodka and Prune juice , I called it a Pile Driver

and one was Vodka , orange juice , and coffee. I called it Screw Mrs. Olsen :)

[ekerr19]

REV
one was Vodka , orange juice , and coffee. I called it Screw Mrs. Olsen :)Holy cow! You are killing me!!!! :D :D :D

Doesn't sound too appealing though -

[boards]

I have looking for a reply that I can agree with and Sailure says it best in my opinion.
While I agree with giving thanks and prayer, I would rather chose when and with whom I want to share it with.

[RevNeal]

One was Vodka and Prune juice , I called it a Pile Driver

and one was Vodka , orange juice , and coffee. I called it Screw Mrs. Olsen

Hmmmm ... the Pile Driver sounds like something Worf (from Star Trek The Next Generation) would like ... he always called Prune Juice a "Warrior's Drink." Agree.

As for the "Screw Mrs. Olsen" ... sounds wild. Not sure I want to try it. :D Give me a nice Gin and Tonic or a Whisky Sour any day.

[digby]

I would never impose my beliefs on others at the table and expect the same courtesy in return.
.

I agree with you. What makes these 'religious' people so uncertain of their own beliefs that they must constantly wave the flag as if to say, "Look at at me, I'm a Christian?" (And why does it always seem to be only Christians that do it. I've never run into a Buddist, Jew, or Moslem that would do it.)

By the way, I say this as a Christian myself. I just feel religion should be a private matter. God does not need to hear the prayer out loud. Or does he?

[Vicar]

Ekerr19

*LOL* Probably why no one ever ordered it *LOL*


REV,

I just never acquired a taste for gin or scotch for that matter , Usually have a Jack Daniels and coke or a Captain Morgans and coke.

[Mijura]

Boos Mom thanks us board members for our "appropriate adult conversation". I suppose she is the arbiter of appropriate conversation as well as appropriate prayer.
Cruising has been fun in the past. I can think of nothing that will put a damper on the cruise experience faster than its being overrun by religious zealots.
Personally, I think prayer or non-prayer is among the most private rights we, as Americans, possess. I find this entire discussion UN AMERICAN.
While Boos Mom expects "appropriate" responses, I think she should remember that what is appropriate to her may be obscene to others.

[dakrewser]

Boos Mom thanks us board members for our "appropriate adult conversation". I suppose she is the arbiter of appropriate conversation as well as appropriate prayer.
Cruising has been fun in the past. I can think of nothing that will put a damper on the cruise experience faster than its being overrun by religious zealots.
Personally, I think prayer or non-prayer is among the most private rights we, as Americans, possess. I find this entire discussion UN AMERICAN.
While Boos Mom expects "appropriate" responses, I think she should remember that what is appropriate to her may be obscene to others.
I can't think of any reason for your nasty tone, here. Has someone demeaned you in some way?

[Roboat]

Oh I would join in! And I would even politely ask if I may add my prayer at the end:

"Oh Lord, I pray this is the last time we have to endure this public display by chest-beating holyboasters. I know Thou art with me on this one. Can I get an Amen?"

Now the quandary for the holyboasters, of course, is whether or not to say Amen. :p

[Vicar]

I truly wouldn't mind bowing my head and saying a little prayer , Maybe the hand holding with people I have just sat down and met would be a little uncomfortable, but saying a prayer would be fine.

Just as long as I don't get a temperance lecture on the demon rum from these people during dinner if I order a cocktail or a bottle of wine with my dinner.

[Lois R]

:D Vicar, after reading this entire topic....you have me REALLY LAUGHING OUTLOUD........
Thanks....I don't want that "Screw Mrs. Olsen"............where is Mr Olsen though?;) :D .....just kidding folks!!!!

[mhshapiro]

It's probably time to close this thread down.....

[Thoth]

Miscreant? MISCREANT??? Good grief, man! For a nasty, bigoted, hypocrite, you take the CAKE!

How DARE you!

Lane Kimball Trubey
Hello Trubey, no need to get personal. I certainly called no ONE PERSON any bad names. My point is this ....based on my projections( my point #1 & #2) from the facts given in the scenario which is based on the "love of God..." post, what kind of person would snub a minister? A person would likely be a low-life to be offended by the likes of Mike and Elsie based on what we were told by the lady who lost her daughter. Then again it's all really hypothetical isn't it?
Just for laughs, have you thought about that I might be one of many friends who you have met on a cruise? I could have been that dude who took that great photo of you by the glacier or waterfall. You could have been one of the many nice people I have met at the hot tub. We never know!!

[Vicar]

Hey Lois,
I will make you a deal, I will fix you up with Mr. Olsen, if you take me with you on your cruise

Wadda ya say?

*LOL*

[Thoth]

.



Do you know I had to look up the word "miscreant"? I understand Lane's horror. I never like to offend anyone, but this post shows a complete lack of respect for everyone here.

There are all kinds of reasons people choose not to sit with other people. To suggest that if the reason for choosing not to is one of religion therefore makes the person "miscreant, callous, uncongenial and snobbish" is insulting and, frankly, completely over the top.
What if a Jewish Rabbi was seated with me and wished to INCLUDE me in his group, but I snubbed the man becouse I disliked Jews or was "offended" by the Jewish faith. You people would be the first to call a miscreant anti-Semite! NOWHERE has been implyed that Mike and Elsie( the praying couple) were anything but wonderful people. NOWHERE has it been stated that they went door to door forcing anyone into their creed. From my understanding they simply asked others if they minded holding hands while MIKE prayed. NOTHING MORE!! The problem might be that bigotry aimed towards Christian ministers is politically correct. Not all Protestant pastors are in it for the money , nor do all Catholic priest fondle little boys. The media seems to think otherwise. There a lot of people who believe everything they see on TV, and there are those who are "offended" simply by others praying.

[trubey]

Hello Trubey, no need to get personal. I certainly called no ONE PERSON any bad names. My point is this ....based on my projections( my point #1 & #2) from the facts given in the scenario which is based on the "love of God..." post, what kind of person would snub a minister? A person would likely be a low-life to be offended by the likes of Mike and Elsie based on what we were told by the lady who lost her daughter. Then again it's all really hypothetical isn't it?
Just for laughs, have you thought about that I might be one of many friends who you have met on a cruise? I could have been that dude who took that great photo of you by the glacier or waterfall. You could have been one of the many nice people I have met at the hot tub. We never know!!
You just don't get it, do you, pal?

LKT

[Thoth]

I would be offended. I think the Bible says it better than I ever could:

MAT 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
MAT 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
People love to take Matthew 6 out of context! That deals with the religious self rightousness and those who pray for simply for show. It doesn't mean that ALL prayer must be hidden. The great commission requires Christians to proclaim their faith. Were Mike and Elsie praying simply for show? not likely!

[cruzincurt]

SAILURE..you hit it right square on the head. Boo's Mom pay attention.....

"It reminds me of the story in the bible of the guy who goes to the temple and makes a big show of praying while the poor humble guy just prays silently....something about a camel going through the eye of a needle....."

Exactly.

Funny how some complain about taking parts of the bible out of context. Seems to me ministers do it all the time when they center their Sunday sermon around a particular passage. And those "truly" religious people can just rattle those bible quotes off one after another.

Catholics are not even encouraged to read the bible because the Church wants to translate everything for them rather than they think for themselves.

[Vicar]

Shows you where my mind is going today

when I saw that poster get called a Miscreant, I immediately thought of the Bugs Bunny cartoon when he was back in medevil times

"Rogue EH?"
"Upstart EH?"

"I will have you know I have a long line of royal friends , Duke of Ellington, Count of Basie, Earl of Hines, Cab of Calloway. I challenge you to a duel" *LOL*

Seriously though, as long as my tablemates or anyone I meet in life are nice, friendly, respectful people , who cares what church they go to. I will respect your religion , you respect mine, or your or my right NOT to have a religion. you know I have friends for many years and I honestly can not tell you what religion they are. I didn't meet them for their religion, I met them, we liked each other and we have been friends ever since. A few friends I didn't know what they were until I was invited to their wedding or went to a funeral in their family and walked into a synagogue or St Marys Church, or First United Church of Christ. And do you think that made me not be friends with them anymore ???? PLEASE

What is wrong with thanking your HIGHER POWER. WE all have one !!!! in whatever way you choose. Call him GOD, Buddah, Yaweh, Jehovah, fill in the blank with whatever you want, OR DON'T FILL IN ANYTHING.

the people wanting to pray are just showing their apprecation that they are alive, healthy, and are able to work and afford a beautiful cruise. Compared to some people they are very very lucky to have all that.

I don't care what religion you are , aren't we all thankful we have all those things I just listed?

Whats wrong with saying Thank You for all that?

[Thoth]

Thoth
\Thoth\, n. 1. (Myth.) The god of eloquence and letters among the ancient Egyptians, and supposed to be the inventor of writing and philosophy. He corresponded to the Mercury of the Romans, and was usually represented as a human figure with the head of an ibis or a lamb.

2. (Zo["o]l.) The Egyptian sacred baboon.
Yep jhannah, You got it right. Egyptology is an interest of mine since I had the pleasure of visiting Egypt. That is the most exotic place I have ever been! On this web site I use an abbreviated name. By the way I'm Thoth the birdbrained Ibis not Thoth the monkey. For what it's worth!
It is nice to hear from someone else interested in ancient history.

[Thoth]

You just don't get it, do you, pal?

LKT
See you proved my point!!! I was nice to you and you respond with more put downs. You and I have nothing else to discuss.

[CrabbyHarper]

Vodka and Milk of Magnesia = a Phillips Screwdriver.

[flatwallet]

That's really funny.

[gliles]

Vodka and Milk of Magnesia = a Phillips Screwdriver. ROFLOL

[ekerr19]

Vodka and Milk of Magnesia = a Phillips Screwdriver.
Hey CrabbyHarper! Good to see you this morning! :)

Sonny loves this one! He's ROFLOL :D

[Mijura]

I can't think of any reason for your nasty tone, here. Has someone demeaned you in some way?
Nasty tone? What is nasty about telling the truth, defending freedom of speech, and keeping religion private? Are you afraid too many other cruisers agree with me?

[imsulin]

I agree with you. What makes these 'religious' people so uncertain of their own beliefs that they must constantly wave the flag as if to say, "Look at at me, I'm a Christian?" (And why does it always seem to be only Christians that do it. I've never run into a Buddist, Jew, or Moslem that would do it.)

By the way, I say this as a Christian myself. I just feel religion should be a private matter. God does not need to hear the prayer out loud. Or does he?

digby - EXCELLENT reply! Enough of the "flag wavers", already! (Are you reading this, Boo's Mom?). The more they spout and spew, the less attention and respect they get, except from themselves.

[Host Walt]

As someone once said, never discuss religion or politics at a party.

Because there is little left in this thread that has not been discussed and because the discussion has gotten more testy than it should, this thread is closed.

Thanks for your understanding.