why no NYC departures

[may1021]

Anyone know why HAL is not going out of NYC next year.
For the last 2 years have gone of fall/winter Caribbean cruise out of NYC and have loved it. Was disappointed when I found out this was not happening any more.

[hammybee]

Here's a link to the last time this question was asked.:)

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=734590

[FIRELT5]

Anyone know why HAL is not going out of NYC next year.
For the last 2 years have gone of fall/winter Caribbean cruise out of NYC and have loved it. Was disappointed when I found out this was not happening any more.

$$$$$$$

[innlady1]

$$$$$$$

It seems that Firelts5 is correct...it's all about the $$$$$. :(

[mamaofami]

That's it. $$$$$$$$:(

[FIRELT5]

It's been 1 year since we where on the Noordam (3/10/07-3/21/07).
We were also booked on her for this November, but HAL moved the sailing to FLL. Still having a hard time deciding If the Noordam or QM2 was our best Voyage out of around 39 Cruises. Hopefully Hal will reconsider the NYC area for 2010 ?????

[innlady1]

It's been 1 year since we where on the Noordam (3/10/07-3/21/07).
We were also booked on her for this November, but HAL moved the sailing to FLL. Still having a hard time deciding If the Noordam or QM2 was our best Voyage out of around 39 Cruises. Hopefully Hal will reconsider the NYC area for 2010 ?????

From what we were told at the Triple A travel show here a couple weeks ago (by HAL's Marketing Manager here in the NE), it's not likely. Her answer to me was, "we won't make the same mistake twice." :(

[jhannah]

If a route is profitable, cruise lines will milk it for all it's worth. If not, well ... you have NYC so far as HAL is concerned. I know it's very convenient for New Yorkers and other Northeasterners, but the numbers crunch the wrong way for HAL there.

[Mary Ellen]

My thinking on this is that sailing from NYC is only popular for those in the NE. As someone who doesn't live near there, would I fly to NYC to catch a ship to the Caribbean AND put up with potentially very 'bumpy', cold days at sea or take a different ship from Florida? For me and most of the country, this was apparently no-brainer. Thus HAL pulled the Noordam from NYC.

[bepsf]

My thinking on this is that sailing from NYC is only popular for those in the NE. As someone who doesn't live near there, would I fly to NYC to catch a ship to the Caribbean AND put up with potentially very 'bumpy', cold days at sea or take a different ship from Florida? For me and most of the country, this was apparently no-brainer. Thus HAL pulled the Noordam from NYC.

Call me crazy - I loved flying into NYC and sailing past Florida.
I could get a cheaper flights to NYC and enjoyed the experience of sailing from cold New York to the sunny Caribbean.

However, I understand the economics of the fuel costs related to those extended sea days - they're simply not offset by sufficient onboard spending to make it worthwhile in the days of $100+/barrel oil.

[hammybee]

However, I understand the economics of the fuel costs related to those extended sea days - they're simply not offset by sufficient onboard spending to make it worthwhile in the days of $100+/barrel oil.

Especially when the average cabin was selling for as low as $25 p/p per day in a quad - $65-79 p/p for a dbl......

[rzdj96]

If a route is profitable, cruise lines will milk it for all it's worth. If not, well ... you have NYC so far as HAL is concerned. I know it's very convenient for New Yorkers and other Northeasterners, but the numbers crunch the wrong way for HAL there.

Jim: It seems that the numbers weren't crunching well for NCL either, as they (NCL) changed their plans for the JADE also. To top that off, the GEM (after Feb. 4, 2009) isn't doing any more extended itineraries either during the winter months (just the Flori-duh/Nassau 7 day run). What's left is RCCL out of Bayonne. It'll be interesting how long RCCL remains defiant. Quite frankly I foresee changes across the board for all the cruise-lines. It's not just oil that's gone ballistic but everything across the board has followed too. Rob

[may1021]

We've done cruises the past 7 years out of NYC. We are from New England however we have found many Canadians and Europeans on these cruises. On Noordam last year there were 2 large groups...one from Poland and one from some other European country that escapes me at the moment.
We have gone in Oct, Dec, and Feb. Luckily, we have never had bad weather or rough seas on any of them. I like the cruising experience so don't mind the cooler weather the first day or so.
I guess it is always about the $$$$.

[jhannah]

It's not just oil that's gone ballistic but everything across the board has followed too. Absolutely! Everything we use/consume has to be transported from where it's made to where we use it. That requires the use of that oil in some form or another. And so many products contain oil or its derivatives. Too bad we didn't cut our dependence on the stuff 30-40 years ago when we had the chance. :(

[hammybee]

It's been 1 year since we where on the Noordam (3/10/07-3/21/07).
We were also booked on her for this November, but HAL moved the sailing to FLL. Still having a hard time deciding If the Noordam or QM2 was our best Voyage out of around 39 Cruises. Hopefully Hal will reconsider the NYC area for 2010 ?????

QM is also pulling out of NYC in the Winter. Can you detect a common theme , here?

[tuchagrey]

Just got off Noordam. Captain said that company was losing ~$200 per passenger in fuel costs (200/ton to $500/ton over past month) Was just not cost effective to battle the countercurrents.
Also, New Yprk is apparently one of th more difficult Ports to navigate.
Tuchagrey

[George W. Bush]

What's left is RCCL out of Bayonne. It'll be interesting how long RCCL remains defiant.

Well, if the supply of cruises out of NYC decreases one would expect the price to increase. So maybe if enough competitors leave the NYC area RCCL will be able to command a more profitable price.

[rzdj96]

Absolutely! Everything we use/consume has to be transported from where it's made to where we use it. That requires the use of that oil in some form or another. And so many products contain oil or its derivatives. Too bad we didn't cut our dependence on the stuff 30-40 years ago when we had the chance. :(

Although off topic, I agree with your assertion. There was one big problem there. We were supposed to go "hydrogen" as it's so plentiful. Then you have "WHO" was going to build these hydrogen fuel stations? Figure the odds of the the oil companies changing over. So then, who's left to fight the oil companies? Even if the auto manufacturers started mass producing a hydrogen car, you wouldn't be able to get far.

GWB: That could be their thinking. Now with the airlines starting to increase their prices due to fuel costs, RCCL may survive Bayonne if they don't go too radical in prices. It'll be interesting!

[George W. Bush]

This is off topic, but the conversation has conveniently stumbled into my rather narrow area of expertise! (I'm a chemist . . . )

The percent abundance of an element really has no bearing on whether or not it will make a viable energy supply. Let's take the combustion of Methane (CH4) for example: CH4 + 2O2 -->CO2 +2H2O

Notice how there is the same amount of Carbon (and every other element involved in the reaction) on both sides of the equation.

So the amount of carbon on the planet hasn't changed despite a decades of fossil fuel use. So when (non-scientists) on the news talk about H as a perfect fuel because its the most abundant element in the universe, its not a very astute observation. There's very little reduced Hydrogen on the planet, most is either completely oxidized (water) or fixed to nitrogen (ammonia for example).

Most H2 is produced from Methane (and subsequently used to make ammonia via the Haber process), but using CH4 hardly seems an effective remedy to fossil fuel usage. =o/ It is also possible to produce H2 and O2 gas from electrolysis of water, but that isn't a good solution either, unless we can produce a lot of "green" electricity.

[bob brown]

So next winter, Port of New York will only host the NCL Gem and RCCL Explorer?

[hammybee]

So next winter, Port of New York will only host the NCL Gem and RCCL Explorer?

Yes, unless one of these two also pull out.

[kryos]

If a route is profitable, cruise lines will milk it for all it's worth. If not, well ... you have NYC so far as HAL is concerned. I know it's very convenient for New Yorkers and other Northeasterners, but the numbers crunch the wrong way for HAL there.
Could weather be an issue too? Maybe in the past people were unable to make the cruise because they couldn't get to NY due to snow, etc. ... airports closed?

Just wondering.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[innlady1]

Could weather be an issue too? Maybe in the past people were unable to make the cruise because they couldn't get to NY due to snow, etc. ... airports closed?

Just wondering.

Blue skies ...

--rita

I don't think that's been an issue, Rita. I've been following the Noordam cruises out of New York for two years, and I don't recall any reports of the airports being closed.

On the other hand, three years ago we did a Princess cruise out of Fort Lauderdale (that left on a Saturday), and on Friday night, FFL closed for a few hours because of severe thunder storms.

We'd gone down a few days early, but friends we were cruising with were flying in on Friday, and were delayed several hours.

So, weather issues can happen anywhere, I guess.

I've been given two reasons by HAL people. Captain Scott said it was because of the high cost of fuel and the long run from New York to the Caribbean. And the Rep at a Triple A travel show recently told me they had to discount the cruises too heavily to fill the ships.

My guess is that it's a combination of both. It's all about the bottom line.

[innlady1]

Jim: It seems that the numbers weren't crunching well for NCL either, as they (NCL) changed their plans for the JADE also. To top that off, the GEM (after Feb. 4, 2009) isn't doing any more extended itineraries either during the winter months (just the Flori-duh/Nassau 7 day run). What's left is RCCL out of Bayonne. It'll be interesting how long RCCL remains defiant. Quite frankly I foresee changes across the board for all the cruise-lines. It's not just oil that's gone ballistic but everything across the board has followed too. Rob

The Jade was going to go out of NYC and they repositioned her to Europe, I believe. It'll be interesting to see what RCCL does.

The Port Authority mustn't be any too happy...I wonder if it this effect their plans to rebuild the Manhattan Terminal? :confused:

[may1021]

Guess it will be NCL or Royal Caribbean. Just did week long cruise on Gem and it can't hold a candle to Noordam. NCL is what it is. Have done 5 NCL cruises. Have never done Royal Caribbean so may be time to try that. Live in Boston area and RCCL is doing a repositioning out of Boston in October that might be appealing.

[hammybee]

Guess it will be NCL or Royal Caribbean. Just did week long cruise on Gem and it can't hold a candle to Noordam. NCL is what it is. Have done 5 NCL cruises. Have never done Royal Caribbean so may be time to try that. Live in Boston area and RCCL is doing a repositioning out of Boston in October that might be appealing.

And yet, it was so often necessary for HAL to undercut NCL on price to fill their ships. Cunard was seriously discounting, too.

This is what happens when the majority of people choose a cruise/flight based upon price. If the operators can't make a go of it, it makes no sense to persist in a market that cannot sustain it.

[arlenez]

This is off topic, but the conversation has conveniently stumbled into my rather narrow area of expertise! (I'm a chemist . . . )

The percent abundance of an element really has no bearing on whether or not it will make a viable energy supply. Let's take the combustion of Methane (CH4) for example: CH4 + 2O2 -->CO2 +2H2O

Notice how there is the same amount of Carbon (and every other element involved in the reaction) on both sides of the equation.

So the amount of carbon on the planet hasn't changed despite a decades of fossil fuel use. So when (non-scientists) on the news talk about H as a perfect fuel because its the most abundant element in the universe, its not a very astute observation. There's very little reduced Hydrogen on the planet, most is either completely oxidized (water) or fixed to nitrogen (ammonia for example).

Most H2 is produced from Methane (and subsequently used to make ammonia via the Haber process), but using CH4 hardly seems an effective remedy to fossil fuel usage. =o/ It is also possible to produce H2 and O2 gas from electrolysis of water, but that isn't a good solution either, unless we can produce a lot of "green" electricity.

Huh?

A

[Jade13]

Guess it will be NCL or Royal Caribbean. Just did week long cruise on Gem and it can't hold a candle to Noordam. NCL is what it is. Have done 5 NCL cruises. Have never done Royal Caribbean so may be time to try that. Live in Boston area and RCCL is doing a repositioning out of Boston in October that might be appealing.

I know people that only go for price so they always cruise on NCL. They always take an inside and once were upgraded to a balcony. They will do the same cruise out of Boston or NY over and over. They also say it's the only "Freestyle' . People really believe those NCL adds that the (other) cruiselines tells you when to do everything.

They booked again for this summer (told me they got a great deal to Bermuda at $2,000 for 3 people in an inside) even though they said last time they were on a new ship and it was terrible with lots of problems, broken doors etc. They want he biggest ship possible.

Just curious. Is NCL totally crowded?

[scamper]

Caribbean Princess has several from New York. I wouldn't call them "regular" and certainly she isn't based there...but that's something.

[Mary Ellen]

Huh?

ADid you happen to notice the post above (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=13849439&postcount=18) the one that has you stumped? It is response to it.

[hammybee]

Just curious. Is NCL totally crowded?

I don't know what you mean by crowded?

During certain school breaks when every berth is full, any ship can and often does feel tight, especially in the LIDO and pool areas.

[hammybee]

Caribbean Princess has several from New York. I wouldn't call them "regular" and certainly she isn't based there...but that's something.

The Princess Caribbean is spending this summer, homebasing out of NYC doing 9 day sails, to the Caribbean. This ship carries about 1,000 more passengers than the Noordam.

[innlady1]

The Princess Caribbean is spending this summer, homebasing out of NYC doing 9 day sails, to the Caribbean. This ship carries about 1,000 more passengers than the Noordam.

Princess used to have the Crown Princess in NYC and has replaced it with the Caribbean Princess. We sailed on her...it's a nice ship but as you say, 1000 or so more pax than the Noordam.

It was never an issue except when boarding tenders for the private island, Princess Cays, or trying to find a seat for the evening show in the theater.

[rich_cathybrock]

I was on the Prinsendam last October and met with the onboard Cruise Consultant to book 2009. We had been holding Noordam Trans-Atlantic Rome to NY, and as we live in NY, I was dreaming of renting a van home (to bring back all the goodies I have never been able to pack or mail before - who knew the dollar would lose half its value since then? :eek: ).

I was re-booking because the trip was moved to Ft. Lauderdale, and I asked why the Noordam was moving out of NY. I was told it is actually not a "financial" decision but a "service" decision.

HAL relies heavily on bus companies, hotels and other local providers to furnish the amenities we have all come to rely upon.

They had numerous service incidents with Hotels - wrong rooms, no rooms, and/or transportation - no coach, wrong size, no handicap, etc. such that one departure resulted in an all-day line at the front desk because passengers all had to arrange their own last-minute transportation, and were just not happy. HAL's brass has evidently decided to pull out of NY to avoid the hassle - now this may just be smoke and mirrors "spiel" in deference to citing the financial reasons (it is a business after all) but I thought I'd point this out.

It would be a terrible shame to lose the tourist revenue for service reasons - but I SURE am going to miss seeing (and hearing) those wonderful ships! I have been watching the Noordam all month and it gives me great joy every time they pull the horn! Maybe a lesson will come from this such that HAL can return some day...

[jhannah]

It would be a terrible shame to lose the tourist revenue for service reasons ... That's a new wrinkle. We had some discussion on another thread about the decline in customer service across most all industries. So having service issues in the leaving New York mix does not seem unreasonable at all.

[jtl513]

- now this may just be smoke and mirrors "spiel" in deference to citing the financial reasons (it is a business after all) but I thought I'd point this out.I'll buy that as a contributing factor, but I still believe the main reason is $$$$! :)

[innlady1]

I think that's a smoke and mirrors spiel. Most business decisions are driven by the bottom line.

[mamaofami]

Interesting theory since the Eurodam will be doing a NYC to Quebec run both in 2008 and 2009. I'm looking pretty seriously at the 2009 date. It will be our special anniversary and I do love Quebec. Goes right past you in Boston, Sheila. Maybe we can do it together on Sept.16th, 2009. Never know what might happen by then.:D

[Jade13]

[quote=rich_cathybrock;13887013]

I was re-booking because the trip was moved to Ft. Lauderdale, and I asked why the Noordam was moving out of NY. I was told it is actually not a "financial" decision but a "service" decision.

HAL relies heavily on bus companies, hotels and other local providers to furnish the amenities we have all come to rely upon.

They had numerous service incidents with Hotels - wrong rooms, no rooms, and/or transportation - no coach, wrong size, no handicap, etc. such that one departure resulted in an all-day line at the front desk because passengers all had to arrange their own last-minute transportation, and were just not happy. HAL's brass has evidently decided to pull out of NY to avoid the hassle - now this may just be smoke and mirrors "spiel" in deference to citing the financial reasons (it is a business after all) but I thought I'd point this out.

quote]

That reason makes no sense. The Eurodam goes out of New York to New England and Canada.

[Randyk47]

Understanding that HAL pulling out of NY is a bummer to some it actually opened the door for us to try another HAL ship. We're very close to booking the Noordam for next January, something we'd not done if she'd stayed in NY. We were on the Volendam in St Thomas and were docked across from the Noordam on her first visit (maiden voyage) to St Thomas a couple of years ago. Instantly wanted to add another HAL ship to our cruising collection but we live in Texas so the thought of flying to NY was not only not appealing from a weather standpoint but also very costly. We stayed out of cruising this year because of my on, off, and now on again retirement (30 May) and spent our "cruise" dollars on a kitchen upgrade. We were also a bit turned off by a less than satisfactory Veendam cruise in March 2007 but we've gotten over that and ready to cruise again. It feels good to be planning and active again on the boards here and very happy that the Noordam has become a viable alternative for us.

Funny thing is that here I am typing from home....the first time in five years my wife and I haven't been on HAL celebrating our anniversary and my birthday (both 21 March). We moved to San Antonio 5 years ago and this is our first year to actually be in town during this week! :D

[hammybee]

That's a new wrinkle. We had some discussion on another thread about the decline in customer service across most all industries. So having service issues in the leaving New York mix does not seem unreasonable at all.

I am inclined to rely upon Captain Scott and common sence that it's driven by the bottom line. This stuff probably added just fuel to the fire.

[hammybee]

I think that's a smoke and mirrors spiel. Most business decisions are driven by the bottom line.

As they should be, else there will be no business.

[hammybee]

Funny thing is that here I am typing from home....the first time in five years my wife and I haven't been on HAL celebrating our anniversary and my birthday (both 21 March). We moved to San Antonio 5 years ago and this is our first year to actually be in town during this week! :D

Happy anniversary and birthday, Randy.

[jhannah]

I am inclined to rely upon Captain Scott and common sence that it's driven by the bottom line. This stuff probably added just fuel to the fire. I agree that it could well be contributory. If HAL was having to make good on botched pre- or post-cruise logistics, that would be a bottom line issue, too.

[tuchagrey]

Add to the $$ issue that New York is one of the most difficult ports in the world (according to 3 Captains to whom I have spoken).....currents, traffic, tight turns....., and it really is a no-brainer. A pity but c'est la vie.
Didn't know about Cunard also deserting. Wonder if the City will try to induce a return??
TG

[mamaofami]

It just doesn't make sense to me that NYC would be a harder port in which HAL had to make pre and post cruise arrangements than any other port they sail from. Other cruise lines sail out of NYC and that doesn't seem to be a problem. It really must be the $$$$ issue.