How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?

[Odd Ball]

How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?

Carnival's new dress code.


Hello Everyone,
Please be aware that we have made a change in our Dress Code policy.
Below you will find the new policy as it will be stated in our marketing materials:
What to wear?
Casual attire is the order of the day. We suggest shorts, sundresses, tank tops, etc. for the ladies, and for men; shorts, polo shirts, T-shirts, etc. will do. We suggest you wear rubber-soled, low heeled or flat shoes for extra traction while onboard. The use of any footwear with wheels, including but not limited, to Heelys© shoes, is prohibited on board our ships. For dining you may want to dress up a bit and/or bring along a light sports jacket or cardigan.
Most evenings we have a Cruise Casual dress code, but there are those Cruise Elegant evenings one or two nights throughout your “Fun Ship” voyage, where you will have the opportunity to showcase your more elegant attire. For those who want casual attire for dinner time, the Seaview Bistro on the Lido Deck is open nightly, and has a more relaxed theme. Both dress codes for the dining rooms are described below.

Cruise Casual Dining Dress Code: Gentlemen - Sport slacks, khakis, jeans (no cut-offs), dress shorts (long), collared sport shirts; Ladies - Casual dresses, casual skirts or pants and blouses, summer dresses, Capri pants, dress shorts, jeans (no cut-offs). Not permitted in the dining room during the Cruise Casual dinner for ladies and gentlemen: gym shorts, basketball shorts, beach flip-flops, bathing suit attire, cut-off jeans, and sleeveless shirts for men.

Cruise Elegant Dining Dress Code: Gentlemen - Dress slacks, dress shirts. We also suggest a sport coat. If you wish to wear suits and ties or tuxedos, by all means we invite you to do so. Ladies - Cocktail dresses, pantsuits, elegant skirts and blouses; if you‘d like to show off your evening gowns, that's great too! Not permitted in the dining room during the Cruise Elegant dinner for ladies and gentlemen: shorts, T-shirts, beach flip-flops, bathing suit attire, jeans, cut-off jeans, sleeveless shirts for men, sportswear, and baseball hats.

Special Sailings
For Canada/New England / Alaska cruises: Sweaters, lightweight jackets and raincoats are suggested. Casual clothes that can be layered easily are highly recommended. Bring a heavier sweater if you are traveling to the glaciers, along with a raincoat and umbrella, because it is often cold and windy in such areas.

For South America and Europe cruises: Comfortable shoes and a just-in-case raincoat. Bring a sweater if you are traveling to the glaciers, along with a raincoat and umbrella, because it is often cold and windy in such areas.Special note: It is essential that you wear the proper apparel when visiting the Vatican and other religious sites (no bare legs or shoulders).

The new policy will be enforced beginning with May 19th sailings

How do you define dress shorts ?

Do white knee socks with sandals go with dress shorts ? :D

[RedmondCruiser]

One of the reasons that I do not cruise with Carnival. How would you like to be at a table, on formal night, with another couple in shorts - tank tops and baseball hats ?? or some yayho who looks like he just crawled off his tractor ?

Sorry but I'll pass.

[ybarber]

I agree with those of you who still want a "standard" of dress at dinner - in the dining rooms. If someone wants to be super casual let them eat in the Lido, or order room service. Keep the dining room a civilized affair - this makes it feel special.:D

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

I agree with those of you who still want a "standard" of dress at dinner - in the dining rooms. If someone wants to be super casual let them eat in the Lido, or order room service. Keep the dining room a civilized affair - this makes it feel special.:D

Amen ;)

[mamaofami]

"How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?"


Hopefully, they will never allow that.

[Lurker1]

Hopefully, they will never allow that.

I agree, and DW empahtically agrees!

On our first cruise a few years ago, one fellow always wore jeans (it was an Alaskan cruise), but he always ate in the Lido.

[RuthC]

How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?
With a little luck it it will start with new bookings only, one week after the world comes to an end.

[bicker]

It all comes down to how much extra are customers willing to spend to reward Holland America for not relaxing the dress code. My instinct: Not much; so that'll prompt Holland American to push the dress code in a direction where it will appeal to a greater number of higher paying passengers. A remarkably high number of shorts-wearing-people have a remarkaly high level of income. Attire now has very little relationship to affluence.

[mr green]

[quote=mamaofami;13995468]"How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?"




Just as soon as the company wishes to sail with its ships half empty.

john

[boards]

Hopefully that will never happen. That is one the reasons we cruise on Hal. We enjoy dressing up.

[jhannah]

As we've seen numerous times, some people will stretch definitions to fit their own desires. "Dress shorts" (what are those, anyway?) will quickly become "any shorts" and there will be, in effect, no dress code at all. That's the way these things go down.

Hopefully HAL will not even open the door.

[Rhea58]

Unfortunately, as indicated above, the noveau riche do not necessarily
wish to dress and possibly some don't know how.
I truly hope HAL will take the high road and not allow this to
fully disintegrate.
After all, cruising is one of the last bastions where one CAN be
properly attired.

[sail7seas]

Here's another vote for no shorts for dinner in the dining room.

I sense we will be seeing many changes in the coming year. Just speculation but it is my uncomfortable feeling that by mid 2009, some of us are not going to be thrilled with some changes that loom.

[sail7seas]

Unfortunately, as indicated above, the noveau riche do not necessarily
wish to dress and possibly some don't know how.
I truly hope HAL will take the high road and not allow this to
fully disintegrate.


:confused: Where did the 'nouveau riche' part come from? Bicker's post said affluent but I did not notice anything about newly affluent.
Are people with old money more well mannered than those with new money?

[jhannah]

Are people with old money more well mannered than those with new money? Not if it's old Hilton money! :eek: :D

[98Charlie]

One of the reasons that I do not cruise with Carnival. How would you like to be at a table, on formal night, with another couple in shorts - tank tops and baseball hats ?? or some yayho who looks like he just crawled off his tractor ?

Sorry but I'll pass.Just a quick question. When did you encounter this on a Carnival cruise? Or any cruise for that matter.

I'm guessing that you haven't been on a Carnival ship in the past five years if ever. We bought in to the Anti-Carnival stuff for a number of years. Then we decided to give it a try and were pleasantly surprised.

The demographics on Carnival are similar to the other lines that we have been on.

It is sad that standards are slipping on many cruise lines. HAL is adopting the open seating dining program. We enjoy it when we cruise NCL but there are problems when lines like Princess and HAL try to blend the open seating and traditional dining.

I hope that it's a long time before "dress shorts" come to other lines including HAL. But, the reality is that it will probably happen.

Those who don't wish to be "exposed" to that kind of dress code will be left with only the premium lines at a premium price.

Just my 2¢

Charlie

[hammybee]

It all comes down to how much extra are customers willing to spend to reward Holland America for not relaxing the dress code. My instinct: Not much; so that'll prompt Holland American to push the dress code in a direction where it will appeal to a greater number of higher paying passengers. A remarkably high number of shorts-wearing-people have a remarkaly high level of income. Attire now has very little relationship to affluence.

And as usual, I agree with the Team Worriers.

[kryos]

How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?

Carnival's new dress code.

I doubt you'll ever see shorts allowed at dinnertime in HAL's dining room ... though I'm sure breakfast or lunch they will be permitted (if they aren't already ... I don't know ... I normally don't wear shorts).

But HAL does allow jeans on casual nights in the dining room now, and I am sure in the not-to-distant future, mandatory formal nights will go away too, which means you'll be able to wear your jeans pretty much any night in the dining room.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

Here's another vote for no shorts for dinner in the dining room.

Personally I can't imagine ever wearing shorts in HAL's dining room ... breakfast, lunch or dinner. It's too cold! I'd freeze to death. :(

Blue skies ...

--rita

[mamaofami]

I predict that formal nights will go first and then the dress code will continue to slide downhill. I just can't imagine those beautiful dining rooms with shorts all around.

In my youth, the term old money did denote a certain air of dignity, and that meant dressing for dinner. As new generations of people have inherited old money, the term doesn't seem to apply anymore. And their are many newly affluent people who want to dress up. It's just that they seem to be in the minority. Most of them work in sutis all week, under lots of pressure, connected to cell phones and comoputers, and want to get away from it all when they vacation. That means dressing down.

I agree that many of us won't like the changes that are coming. But I do think they will be coming.

[kryos]

"How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?"
Just as soon as the company wishes to sail with its ships half empty.

Hate to say this, but I think the opposite is actually true. Cruise ships as a rule a becoming more informal. I think HAL would likely cruise with the ships half empty if they stuck to a rigid dress code. True, they would continue to have the HAL "die hards" sailing, but what happens when the "die hards" die off?

HAL, just like all cruise lines, has to attract a steady stream of new cruisers ... ones who will take that "once in a lifetime" cruise, love it, and continue to book for years to come. Sorry, but a lot of those folks don't want to bother playing "dress up" these days. It's just the way it is in our society ... it is becoming much more casual. Also, a lot of these new cruisers are younger and are still "working stiffs." They may have to dress up everyday for work depending upon the nature of their jobs. They are sure as h*ll not going to do it while on vacation too. They want to pack and wear nothing but slacks and jeans, tee and polo shirts, while onboard. And, let's face it ... if they go to an island resort on their vacations, they can wear nothing but tee shirts and shorts all week. So why would they cruise if they had to dress up on the boat?

HAL is a mass market cruise line ... just like Carnival, RCI and NCL. We like to kid ourselves and say that HAL is upscale, but it's really in the same classification as these other lines. True, HAL has it's unique points, which is exactly why we sail the line, but then Carnival, RCI and NCL have their unique points too ... and their fans as well.

So since HAL is a mass market (or as some like to say "premium") cruise line, they have to compete on a level playing field with these other cruise lines. They have to draw their share of the new cruisers too, the ones of "average," or slightly above average income ... who wouldn't be likely to book a luxury line. So HAL has to "go with the flow" whether we like it or not.

As I've said many times before, trust me, the end of mandatory formal nights and more relaxed dress codes are coming ... whether we like it or not. I also personally think we are not too far way from the end of formal fixed seating dining either. We might as well just learn to deal with it if we want to continue sailing the line. And for myself, as long as HAL still maintains the other unique traits that I love, this dress code issue won't be that much of a deterrent for me booking cruises on the line for years to come.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Typhoon1]

Probably never, Carnival has always been known for it's casual atmosphere.

[kryos]

Hopefully that will never happen. That is one the reasons we cruise on Hal. We enjoy dressing up.
This is something that never ceases to amaze me. Why on earth do you have to wait for HAL to tell you it's okay before dressing up? Who says you can't don your formal duds and be dressed to the nines every night? If you are traveling with a group of friends who all enjoy that, why not declare your own formal nights where you all get dressed up?

Personally, what I think HAL should do is have certain designated optional formal nights. Have one area of the flexible dining room turned into a "supper club" environment where only those who dress up in formalwear can be seated. Then, for everyone else, in every other eatery onboard, the casual dress code applies. The food in that "supper club" would be the same as everyone else was eating in the dining room, so no one could complain that they were being penalized because they didn't want to dress up. HAL could just have that one area where formal elegance would be the order of the day. By the way, before someone posts here and says the Lido is casual every night, let me say that some people, while on a vacation, don't want to eat in a buffet. If the Lido wanted to go to full table service every night, then fine, I guess the Lido would work. But lots of people eat regularly in buffets at home and want to be served while they are on vacation. And, they don't want to have to get all dressed up in order to do so.

Again, by casual, I'm not saying sloppy. I doubt you'll ever see shorts allowed in the dining room at dinner time. But I do think more casual dress codes are coming and that's just the way it is. But that shouldn't stop you from doing exactly what you want to do while on vacation ... and if that means dressing up every night for dinner, why not?

Blue skies ...

--rita

[mamaofami]

Kyros, I don't know how you attributed the above quoted post to me. It's not mine.It was posted by Mr. Greenpost # 9. And he quoted me as asking a question which I put in quotes because it was posted by OP.

[innlady1]

I don't like the way people dress during church services these days, for that matter. Frankly, I'd rather see people dressing down on a cruise than in our houses of worship.

We've belonged to the same church for 38 years, and attend regularly when we're on the mainland for the winter. I've noticed a significant "dressing down" over the years...from then until now. Last Sunday, I observed a local realtor we know, in a nice linen blazer, heels...and long "dress" shorts.

I thought shorts were out of place in a house of worship but our 30-something daughter informed me that that's the style these days. I don't like it...but I guess that's the way the younger generation dresses for "dress occasions" these days.

I don't like it, but I guess if shorts are acceptable in a house of worship, they're acceptable on a cruise ship.

[PennyAgain]

I think that with so many airlines charging $25 to check a 2nd bag to your destination and another $25 for the return trip, I think that formal attire will disappear on all but the most up market cruise lines.

Crystal cruise lines pays for the extra baggage charges for its passengers in the suites and on the world cruise.

I started traveling with HAL when we traveled by ship for transportation and not only for a vacation. Everyone dressed reasonably well at all times in those days and some people really dressed up on the formal nights. We had an incredible amount of baggage. Those days are long gone.

[kaiiak]

As we've seen numerous times, some people will stretch definitions to fit their own desires. "Dress shorts" (what are those, anyway?) will quickly become "any shorts" and there will be, in effect, no dress code at all. That's the way these things go down.

Hopefully HAL will not even open the door.

I totally understand your concern with the slippery slope going towards "any shorts".
I have some shorts which I would consider "dress shorts". The tailoring and stitching on them is similar to a women's "trouser pant". They are black with a thin white pinstripe. I can't remember exactly the blend they are made with (they are at the dry cleaners at the moment) but I believe it is a blend of polyester and cotton. They are long and just cover the knee and have a sewn in cuff. I usually wear these shorts with high heels and a dressy top in the evenings during summer. I am imagining this is the look they are going for on Carnival - however not so sure all others will interpret this the same way due to that slippery slope.
Myself, I would enjoy the option of dressing like this sometimes during a cruise. However, the key word is sometimes.

[dakrewser]

Personally, what I think HAL should do is have certain designated optional formal nights. Have one area of the flexible dining room turned into a "supper club" environment where only those who dress up in formalwear can be seated. Then, for everyone else, in every other eatery onboard, the casual dress code applies. The food in that "supper club" would be the same as everyone else was eating in the dining room,

No, I think those who make the effort to dress should be rewarded with better food selection. Maybe the Pinnacle Grille could "go formal" with lobster added to the menu...

[cruznon]

I suppose changes are coming. It saddens me to think that shorts would be allowed in the lovely dining rooms for dinner on HAL ships.
I always look forward to dinner--chatting with those at your table about the days events.

Dressing for dinner helps to make it an event--not just eating. Perhaps that's the bottom line: pax look at dinner from differing perspectives. Cruising traditionists see it a social event. Non-traditionists simply see dinner in the dining room as eating--no big deal! (JMHO)

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

Perhaps a navy blazer,support hose & wing-tips would 'complete' the look, no?



http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/wickedtemptations_1991_16725504

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[innlady1]

Ahoy!

Perhaps a navy blazer,support hose & wing-tips would 'complete' the look, no?



http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/wickedtemptations_1991_16725504

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

You really need a silk tie to complete the outfit, Bob!

[cruisecrasy]

Personally I can't imagine ever wearing shorts in HAL's dining room ... breakfast, lunch or dinner. It's too cold! I'd freeze to death. :(

Blue skies ...

--rita

Best way to get folks to wear more is to keep the room colder...:)

[hunnypot1]

I tend to wear shorts during the day if the temp is over 65 degrees. (For the record, I do change clothes for dinner...)

Are shorts allowed in the dining room for breakfast or lunch? Will I have to change into pants to dine during the day?

Also, is the Pinnacle Grill open during the day, or just for dinner?

This newby would appreciate your advice...:)

[gizmo]

Hunnypot1,

Yes, shorts are allowed in the dining room at breakfast and lunch.

The Pinnacle is open for lunch, usually during sea days. There is an extra charge.

[bicker]

No, I think those who make the effort to dress should be rewarded with better food selection.I think those who pay more should be rewarded with better food selection.

[jtl513]

Also, is the Pinnacle Grill open during the day, or just for dinner?
The Pinnacle is open for lunch, usually during sea days. There is an extra charge.On our last cruise (Zuiderdam) the P.G. was open for lunch every day except Embarkation and HMC days. Shorts ARE allowed there for lunch.

[caviargal]

Just a quick question. When did you encounter this on a Carnival cruise? Or any cruise for that matter.

I'm guessing that you haven't been on a Carnival ship in the past five years if ever. We bought in to the Anti-Carnival stuff for a number of years. Then we decided to give it a try and were pleasantly surprised.

The demographics on Carnival are similar to the other lines that we have been on.

Charlie

I have cruised Carnival three times, 1990, 1996, 2005 (new ship). While they did improve their food, the overall atmposphere did not change IMO. The ships were loud, crowded, smoky and there were plenty of folks dressed very casually in the dining room at dinner.

I have now seen wrinkled shorts, ball caps, logo tees, sweats, doo rags and swim baggies at dinner in the main dining room on RCI, Carnival and even my last Celebrity cruise.

IME, the demographic on Carnival was different than what I personally enjoy on each of these three cruises. More rowdy, more casual, etc.

I did not enjoy any of these three cruises and would not cruise with them again, no matter how low the price.

[PennyAgain]

Swim baggies? What on earth are those? Swimming attire in the dining room!

[babyher]

As much as I am not a big fan of formal nights ( We do dress according because we are supposed to) I would not want to see the dress code go to shorts.

"Smart casual" every night would be just fine by me, but that should be the limit.

[Stevesan]

With a little luck it it will start with new bookings only, one week after the world comes to an end.

Which could be sooner than you think. from today's NY Times:

Asking a Judge to Save the World

Two men are pursuing a lawsuit to stop scientists from using a giant particle accelerator, claiming that it could create a black hole that might eat up the Earth. :eek:

[98Charlie]

I have cruised Carnival three times, 1990, 1996, 2005 (new ship). While they did improve their food, the overall atmposphere did not change IMO. The ships were loud, crowded, smoky and there were plenty of folks dressed very casually in the dining room at dinner.

I have now seen wrinkled shorts, ball caps, logo tees, sweats, doo rags and swim baggies at dinner in the main dining room on RCI, Carnival and even my last Celebrity cruise.

IME, the demographic on Carnival was different than what I personally enjoy on each of these three cruises. More rowdy, more casual, etc.

I did not enjoy any of these three cruises and would not cruise with them again, no matter how low the price.Since that was your Carnival experience I can't argue with your decision not to sail them again. I know that our experience was not like that. We sailed Valor (Nov 2006), Legend (Jan 2007), Valor (Apr 2007) and Miracle (Jan 2008). I did feel that on our first Valor cruise that the noise level around the main pool was usually louder than we have seen on other cruises. Other than that, no real difference.

With regard to coming changes on HAL and the cruise industry in general, we have to remember all of these lines are a business. They will look at competition and see what can be adapted to increase their bottom line.

The customers of the cruise line is IMHO the shareholders. They (we if you own stock) want a return on their (our) investment. If they feel that "dress shorts" in the dining room will help fill the ships, it will happen.

They will have to balance the influx of new passengers with the lost passengers who migrate to the premium lines.

Just my 2¢,

Charlie

[Silver sailor]

No, I think those who make the effort to dress should be rewarded with better food selection. Maybe the Pinnacle Grille could "go formal" with lobster added to the menu...


Are you insinuating that those "who make the effort (what effort?) to dress(assume nudity is not permitted even in the most casual dining venues) should be rewarded with better food selection" because that are "better" people?

[caviargal]

[quote=98Charlie;14003625
They will have to balance the influx of new passengers with the lost passengers who migrate to the premium lines.

Just my 2¢,

Charlie[/quote]

I agree that changes will continue in an effort to fill cabins and the traditionalists - like me - will have to go elsewhere. Shorts in the dining room would be a deal breaker for me personally in terms of choosing HAL.

We enjoy land vacations more than cruises these days for lots of reasons and find the AI resorts a great alternative to cruising; we also enjoy the luxury lines but unfortunately they are $$$ and it is rare for them to offer a one week Caribbean itinerary. We have no real interest in longer or more exotic itineraries, preferring to make those trips on land.

Where in the past cruising was our first choice for a vacation, we now choose other options that provide an experience more in line with what we enjoy. Bigger and bigger ships with more and more passengers are definitely not attractive to us, nor is the more casual environment on these mega liners.

Penny, yes, swim trunks and rubber flip flops were worn by 20 somethings at a table next to ours on an RCI cruise we took last summer to the Bahamas. And it was dinner in the main dining room.:(

[tutak]

Reading through these posts, I couldn't help but thinking that they could have been written a couple of years ago if eliminate the reference to "shorts" and put in AYW dining.

I don't think that I have ever met a person that has yet to go on a cruise say, "I will start cruising when they allow shorts in the dining room." I don't see how this will increase the bottom line.

In my opinion, HAL could have increased their market share by keeping things as they were. It seems to me that a lot of people prefer that and would have migrated to HAL as other lines changed.

[98Charlie]

I don't think that I have ever met a person that has yet to go on a cruise say, "I will start cruising when they allow shorts in the dining room." I don't see how this will increase the bottom line.

In my opinion, HAL could have increased their market share by keeping things as they were. It seems to me that a lot of people prefer that and would have migrated to HAL as other lines changed.
You may well be correct. But, I'm guessing that HAL did market research of some sort before going with AYW. When and if they relax the dress code in any manner it will be IMHO a response to further research.

And maybe, just maybe, the research will point to a glut in the market for cruise lines with AYW type dining, relaxed dress codes, etc. and a need for a cruise line with only traditional dining, 2 formal nights per 7 nighter, etc. Then the powers that be at HAL might decide to abandon the changes that have been made and return to the standards of a few years ago.

Charlie

[NYCsurfer]

Gee, how I love me a dress code thread. For those who are wondering what dress shorts are......you might consider asking a Bermudian. :rolleyes:

[LUV2CRUZalso]

We hope this never happens!!! Why mess with something that the majority of clients love - and yes, it does have something to do with tradition. If you want to wear shorts, go to the Lido or take a cruise line of lesser stature. Just OHOs. Cheers to all !!!

Happy Cruizin!!!! ;) :p

[Copper10-8]

Dress shorts in the diningroom?? Holy Moly:eek: What's next? Dress jammie tops in the Crow's Nest?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YARJS7DQL._SS500_.jpg

[Bill S]

I have nothing against shorts, and wear them a lot, even going out to eat at local restaurants where shorts are appropriate.

We like to cruise, in part, with HAL because it is a special experience unlike our day-to-day routine. Allowing shorts, IMO, would diminish what has made cruising on HAL special to us.

I was amazed what some people considered to be Smart Casual on our recent HAL cruise. One instance: on the last evening, a fellow entering the dining room in front of us was wearing coveralls and tennis shoes.

So, I'm afraid if HAL permits shorts ala' Carnival, who knows what will actually be permitted to be worn in the dining room in the evenings?

[Bill S]

Double post! Sorry!

[hunnypot1]

Any exception for little boys?

I recall these types of outfits used to be acceptable in society for young boys in formal situations?

I think they are darling!

http://www.wholesalekid.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/LT590-t.jpg

[Copper10-8]

Any exception for little boys?

I recall these types of outfits used to be acceptable in society for young boys in formal situations?

I think they are darling!

http://www.wholesalekid.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/LT590-t.jpg

I like the hat, looks like Dutch night all over again - Come to think of it, I like the shorts also - beats lederhosen! Were does one obtain a get-up like that?

[pipedreams62]

We'll be right there! As soon as we make a quick stop for soda and beer
anyhttp://pipedreams62.eaph2.com/share/afunstuff/clamp.jpg supermarkets by the port?

[middle-aged mom]

East is east and west is west
And the wrong one I have chose
Let's go where they keep on wearin'
Those frills and flowers and buttons and bows
Rings and things and buttons and bows.

Don't bury me in this prairie
Take me where the cement grows
Let's move down to some big town
Where they love a gal by the cut o' her clothes
And you'll stand out, in buttons and bows.

I'll love you in buckskin
Or skirts that you've homespun
But I'll love ya' longer, stronger
Where yer friends don't tote a gun

My bones denounce the buckboard bounce
And the cactus hurts my toes
Let's vamoose where gals keep a-usin'
Those silks and satins and linen that shows
And I'm all yours in buttons and bows.

Gimme eastern trimmin' where women are women
In high silk hose and peek-a-boo clothes
And French perfume that rocks the room
And I'm all yours in buttons and bows.

Buttons and bows, buttons and bows.....

original lyrics by Ray Evans

[hunnypot1]

I like the hat, looks like Dutch night all over again - Come to think of it, I like the shorts also - beats lederhosen! Were does one obtain a get-up like that?


Wholesalekid.com

I bet Ebay has 'em too...

[pipedreams62]

This hasn't even received an honorable mention?

https://www.dressthatman.com/pics/suit/suit574.jpg

[ctsally]

As much as I dislike having to "dress up", I would not like to see HAL change its policy of no shorts in the dining room. The Lido is a good alternative for those who do not choose to get all "guzzied up" for formal nights.
I really don't see the need for shorts in the dining room on any evening.

[Copper10-8]

Wholesalekid.com

I bet Ebay has 'em too...

Thank you Ma'am:)

[pipedreams62]

As much as I dislike having to "dress up", I would not like to see HAL change its policy of no shorts in the dining room. The Lido is a good alternative for those who do not choose to get all "guzzied up" for formal nights.
I really don't see the need for shorts in the dining room on any evening.


http://www.shoes.com/productimages/shoes_iaec1001348.jpg

[babyher]

This hasn't even received an honorable mention?

https://www.dressthatman.com/pics/suit/suit574.jpg



GOOD God !!!!!!!!!I wore a powder blue tux just like that to my prom in 1980 and a silver grey one as usher in my sisters wedding about 1981.

YIKES


you think those were bad????????? You should have seen the bridesmaid dresses *LOL*

[bicker]

I don't think that I have ever met a person that has yet to go on a cruise say, "I will start cruising when they allow shorts in the dining room." You need to head over to the Windjammer forum.

And I think that's why you don't see how this kind of thing can help the bottom-line, because you simply have avoided/ignored/discounted "people like that" despite their market power.

In my opinion, HAL could have increased their market share by keeping things as they were. It seems to me that a lot of people prefer that and would have migrated to HAL as other lines changed.Yeah, well, everyone has opinions, but the market data that the cruise lines rely on to fulfill their fiduciary responsibility evidently say otherwise. I'll believe them.

[bicker]

We'll be right there! As soon as we make a quick stop for soda and beer
anyhttp://pipedreams62.eaph2.com/share/afunstuff/clamp.jpg supermarkets by the port?What's really interesting is how folks are insinuating that folks who wear shorts in the dining room (now that it is explicitly permitted) is somehow uncouth, but these folks are making such incredibly rude comments about the folks who subscribe to a different perspective. Which is the greater transgression? In my book, comments like the one quoted above are far more disrespectful than even wearing tank tops on formal night. :sad:

[hunnypot1]

Thank you Ma'am:)

You are welcome.

When you think about it, it only makes sense that little boy's formal outfits included shorts. They would absolutely ruin the pants on a tux in no time at all. Asking a 3 year old boy not to get down on his knees for several hours is like asking a fish not to swim. :)

[babyher]

You are welcome.

When you think about it, it only makes sense that little boy's formal outfits included shorts. They would absolutely ruin the pants on a tux in no time at all. Asking a 3 year old boy not to get down on his knees for several hours is like asking a fish not to swim. :)


Easter 1967

a young mother dresses her 4 children in adorable little outfits in preparation for church and a large family dinner at grandmas house.

The youngest , an adorable little boy of 4 is wearing a little blue suit with a jacket ,shirt ,tie and short pants, It even had suspenders and a cute little hat. And of course shiny new black shoes.

Said young mother tells adorable children to go outside in the yard to wait for her to get the camera and take some pictures.

While waiting the (did I mention adorable :) 4 year old spots a cat climbing up into the tree house next door and immediately feels the need to go chase him out.

While climbing the tree, said 4 year old catches himself on a nail on the tree house ladder, thus tearing the pants and cutting his leg to the tune of 5 stitches :(

Resulting in really pissed off young mother taking other three children to church ,while even more pissed off father takes adorable 4 year old to the ER and meeting up with everyone hours later at Grandmas.


So yes those suits do bring back memories *LOL* :)

[tutak]

You need to head over to the Windjammer forum.

And I think that's why you don't see how this kind of thing can help the bottom-line, because you simply have avoided/ignored/discounted "people like that" despite their market power.

Yeah, well, everyone has opinions, but the market data that the cruise lines rely on to fulfill their fiduciary responsibility evidently say otherwise. I'll believe them.

Windjammer forum? We all know how much of a market share Windjammer represented.

[jseaya]

Shorts can't be far away(AYW) . HAL can't even police it's own dress code. We saw Jeans, flannel shirts on formal night on Noordam 06. we are trying carnival again and we will be dressed to the nines, tux, suits and gowns. No tanks, no shorts. seaya

[kryos]

What's really interesting is how folks are insinuating that folks who wear shorts in the dining room (now that it is explicitly permitted) is somehow uncouth, but these folks are making such incredibly rude comments about the folks who subscribe to a different perspective. Which is the greater transgression? In my book, comments like the one quoted above are far more disrespectful than even wearing tank tops on formal night. :sad:
I agree with you. While I personally would not wear shorts in the dining room, to be honest, it wouldn't impact my cruise any if others did. So what? I think what a lot of people on these boards forget is that a cruise is a VACATION. If the cruise line opts to allow shorts in the dining room, and someone decides to do so because they like being dressed very casually on vacation ... then what's the problem? What business is it of mine what someone else chooses to wear? If it bothers me that much, then it should be ME, not them, who does not eat in the formal dining room anymore. It should be ME who switches cruise lines if I'm not happy with the dress code, not the other person who is not doing anything wrong in wearing the shorts that are now allowed.

Like I said, I doubt HAL will ever allow shorts in the dining room ... at least during dinner ... but if they did I would then have to decide if I wanted to switch cruise lines based on that fact. People choosing to wear their shorts wouldn't be doing anything wrong, and I would have no right to make comments about them either on these boards or elsewhere.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bicker]

Windjammer forum? We all know how much of a market share Windjammer represented.Yeah, people don't want to work that hard. Many people just want to lounge around in their shorts.

[kryos]

Are you insinuating that those "who make the effort (what effort?) to dress(assume nudity is not permitted even in the most casual dining venues) should be rewarded with better food selection" because that are "better" people?I agree with having a venue where formal would be the order of the evening on certain nights ... but, no, I don't think they should offer anything special on the menu. It should just be another room ... maybe the Queen or Kings Room, where people choosing to dress formally could go that evening for dinner and be surrounded by others choosing to dress the same way. There would be no cover charge (as in the Pinnacle) and the food served would be the exact menu items being served in the dining room that night.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[NoNoNanette]

I've been awaiting your posts on this thread, Rita.... alas, you're always the voice of reason. :)

[kryos]

I don't think that I have ever met a person that has yet to go on a cruise say, "I will start cruising when they allow shorts in the dining room." I don't see how this will increase the bottom line.

Then maybe you need to get out more? :) Just kidding ...

Seriously, though, maybe no one ever said that specifically, but I have heard MANY people make an argument against cruising in terms of formal nights. I have had people tell me that they would never in a million years be able to get their husbands into a suit and tie while on vacation and that's why they wouldn't even consider a cruise. I have another friend who said there was no way she was gonna fight with her two kids to get them dressed in fancy duds just to go to dinner. There are plenty of other vacation options for her where the kids can eat in whatever they happen to be wearing at the time ... including their bathing suits with a pair of shorts thrown over them. HAL (as well as the other cruise lines) have to compete not only with each other, but with these other vacation venues. There's no reason people can't opt for a land vacation at an All Inclusive Resort in lieu of a cruise. If the land resorts will allow an all casual dress code ... VERY casual ... and there are a lot of folks who prefer that ... then the cruise lines stand to lose a lot in the way of this new business by not "getting with the times."

So, you'd better believe allowing casual dress will improve the bottom line for most cruise lines, because it will remove a major obstacle that some people have in deciding to try a cruise vacation. There are plenty of people who do not even OWN dressy clothes. Maybe they work in "non-traditional" jobs where they don't have to dress up (such as myself), and because of that they own precious little in the way of dressy clothes, preferring to spend their wardrobe money on things they can use everyday. There are lots of people (again, like myself) whose lifestyles do not involve having to get dressed up for social activities ... and therefore, they don't bother having these items in their wardrobe. There are a lot of folks (once again, like myself) who can go out to dinner at a lot of their favorite restaurants on land (Outback, Red Lobster, Olive Garden, etc.) without doing anything special in terms of dress. Many of these people can't see any reason why on a vacation it should be any different.

There are also a lot of people who are on the other end of the spectrum. They DO have to dress up everyday for work. Maybe they deal with customers on a regular basis, and must dress the part. When they go on vacation, they will be "dammed" if they are even gonna pack a tie, let alone wear one.

So, Carnival is smart in revising this dress code, and while I doubt very much HAL will ever allow shorts in the dining room during the dinner hours, I see them eliminating mandatory formal nights in the not to distant future. It simply makes good business sense if they want to draw in the younger, family cruiser.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[pipedreams62]

I just got off the Westerdam in January. I wanted to eat lunch in the dining room and called down to the front desk to double check the dress code. The lady at the front desk told me "No Shorts Were Allowed In The Dining Room" just as I was hanging up the phone I heard "Sir,Are You Stlil There" I answered 'Yes" and She added "There's Also "No Jeans Allowed".

I threw on some khakis and a Tommy Bahama golf shirt (it really wasn't that big of an effort ( it took me all of 2 seconds) and went to the dining room.

Once I got there it was a whole different story, 75% of the people had shorts on and we sat with two guys with ballcaps for luch.

(oh yeah, they inadvertently forgot to take them off while they were eating)

[Cruising-along]

I agree with you. While I personally would not wear shorts in the dining room, to be honest, it wouldn't impact my cruise any if others did. So what? I think what a lot of people on these boards forget is that a cruise is a VACATION. If the cruise line opts to allow shorts in the dining room, and someone decides to do so because they like being dressed very casually on vacation ... then what's the problem? What business is it of mine what someone else chooses to wear? If it bothers me that much, then it should be ME, not them, who does not eat in the formal dining room anymore. It should be ME who switches cruise lines if I'm not happy with the dress code, not the other person who is not doing anything wrong in wearing the shorts that are now allowed.

Like I said, I doubt HAL will ever allow shorts in the dining room ... at least during dinner ... but if they did I would then have to decide if I wanted to switch cruise lines based on that fact. People choosing to wear their shorts wouldn't be doing anything wrong, and I would have no right to make comments about them either on these boards or elsewhere.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Ahhh, I just felt a breath of fresh air. :)

Rita, I agree completely. I personally wouldn't choose to wear shorts in the dining room (or jeans) but if HAL ever chooses allow shorts, I'd be the last person to say that others shouldn't, or make comments about those who do.

[nchank]

Just got off the Ryndam Wednesday. I observed men with open sports shirts and a jacket in the dining room on "formal" nights. The ladies all seemed to dress up.

The sign in front of the dining room on casual nights no longer says "smart casual" but just "casual".

I see that Seabourn is casual all nights. However I doubt that anyone would dress in shorts for dinner on that line.

Alas, I suspect "formal" will soon be gone.....:(

[nchank]

I hate to see men wearing baseball hats in restaurants. I did see that in the Lido on the Ryndam last week.
I just got off the Westerdam in January. I wanted to eat lunch in the dining room and called down to the front desk to double check the dress code. The lady at the front desk told me "No Shorts Were Allowed In The Dining Room" just as I was hanging up the phone I heard "Sir,Are You Stlil There" I answered 'Yes" and She added "There's Also "No Jeans Allowed".

I threw on some khakis and a Tommy Bahama golf shirt (it really wasn't that big of an effort ( it took me all of 2 seconds) and went to the dining room.

Once I got there it was a whole different story, 75% of the people had shorts on and we sat with two guys with ballcaps for luch.

(oh yeah, they inadvertently forgot to take them off while they were eating)

[RedmondCruiser]

Alas, I suspect "formal" will soon be gone.....:(

Well maybe someone would play taps as I commit my three tuxes to the flame. I think that formal night will exist for another five to ten years but I doubt it will be much longer.

[mancunian]

I am no longer sure what I think about this. I would probably have said (and meant it) that I was not interested in what others wore and it made no difference to my cruise. But then came HAL.

We have cruised on several lines but mainly Orient, Swan Hellenic and three cruises recently on P&O. P&O is Carnival too and similar ships to HAL. But my word they almost put another meaning on formal. They do formal, informal and smart casual. As a concession for the charter flights they cut informal. Formal however, means just that - though they do add after the tux's a lounge suit will be OK. However, 98% wear a tux - indeed a huge number of men sailing from Southampton take a black and a white jacket. Well over half the women wear long dresses. We mutter and moan a bit when we are packing but go along with whatever a cruiseline tells us. I know, I know, we clearly lack imagination. Once there we quite enjoy it and but would equally not be bothered if they cut it out.

Then came our first cruise on HAL. We love HAL and have booked two more cruises but I must admit we were a little thrown by the formals. Venturing out of our cabin all done up it was a shock to see interpretation of formal. I reckon if generous there were about 40% in tuxedos. Very few women in long dresses. Felt a little overdressed but hey, should not let others affect you. My usual attitude of not being affected by others however, took a nasty shock in the theatre. I found it strange to be sitting next to two women wearing a tracksuit and jeans respectively. There were many other odd interpretations of formal. The whole thing was a peculiar mix and to tell the truth I did not like it.

I was also struck by how many people - who had dressed up - said they would rather not on holiday - that they do not have to dress up to go out for a meal at home. To be honest I think the people writing on here who think this is the future are right. I would rather have it one way or the other, not a mix.

[Odd Ball]

This hasn't even received an honorable mention?

https://www.dressthatman.com/pics/suit/suit574.jpg
:D Does this come in lime green ?

[nycdeb]

This hasn't even received an honorable mention?

https://www.dressthatman.com/pics/suit/suit574.jpg

Dear lord! The memory may be ever so slightly clouded by the years but I could have sworn that the ushers at my uncle's wedding wore this or darned near the same in 1977.

Oh the humanity.

[annierie]

Just got off the Ryndam Wednesday. I observed men with open sports shirts and a jacket in the dining room on "formal" nights. The ladies all seemed to dress up.

The sign in front of the dining room on casual nights no longer says "smart casual" but just "casual".

I see that Seabourn is casual all nights. However I doubt that anyone would dress in shorts for dinner on that line.

Alas, I suspect "formal" will soon be gone.....:(

All the women were in Cocktail dresses or gowns? NEVER in 43 days on HAL did I find all the women adhering to the "guidelines". Besides, my DH would possibly consider shirt, tie and jacket to be "dress up".

Again, the double standard. Men, NO EXCEPTIONS!!! Women, wear what you want, and call it "fashion" even if it's polyester black pants and a sparkly tee shirt. I saw that more than once on Volendam in 2001, and it isn't any better on "formal" nights anywhere but the luxury lines now.

By the way, Seabourn has quite a few formal nights. Perhaps you are confusing them with Sea Dream, the yacht. Seabourn and Silversea both have formal nights where the vast majority actually do dress formally.

Regent has a mix. Longer or exotic itins have a few formals. Alaska, short Caribbean, or short Med cruises have none.

HAL hasn't had adherence to their dress codes in years. Why everyone today gets all up in arms about it is quite funny, actually. I saw jeans in the dining room in 2000 in Alaska. No one said a word to the people in jeans.

[dolls4sell]

It's like years ago in Vegas, everyone use to get dressed up to see a show, now it's anything goes. On formal nights I wouldn't enjoy getting dressed up and sitting next to someone who has shorts on. Now on casual nights nice (longer shorts) with a nice shirt (no tess0 wouldn't be so bad. We met a couple, her husband didn't like eatting in the dining room becasue he couldn't wear shorts, so we ate at the lido to please him. We enjoy the diningroom. There are a few cruises (High end) that sail Alasak and Hawaii that allow shorts in their dining room at night.
Remember As you wish dining everyone thought HAL wouldn't go there but they did and this will also happen down the road.

[pipedreams62]

Yes things used to be really different.

In the past

Everybody got dressed up to fly on an airplanes, and the flight attendants were gorgeous. There was even a time where you actually got a meal on a plane instead of peanuts.

Everyone used to dress up at Wimbledon and the women all wore hats.

Going to get gas meant an attendant would wash your windshield, check your tires and oi,l and fill your tank.

People used to go on a job interviews and actually NOT go in sweat pants.

There are those who claim "One Has To Realize Things Change"

The problem is these are the people who are wearing sweatpants to a job interview.

[dakrewser]

No one said a word to the people in jeans.

Nor would I. The best thing to do is to simply ignore them, forever.

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

People used to go on a job interviews and actually NOT go in sweat pants.




OMG!

PEOPLE DO THAT? do they WANT the job?

I always go in a skirt or dress with make-up and hair done.

[world~citizen]

This is an interesting thread.

I long ago gave up trying to read entrails to predict the future.

I think though I see a trend...and it is one that does not bode well for my continued interest in cruising.

Our first cruise was on the QE2. When we went to the dining room the first day, it was a casual night. My wife and I came in smartly dressed (I suppose HALs elegantly casual equivalent), and the maitre d' smiled and greeted us with a friendly "welcome aboard". Right behind us was a young lady in a spandex outfit of some sort and I heard him greet her with a correct "Can I help you?" She returned later in more conservative attire and was seated at the table next to ours.

Formal nights meant formal wear, and I have to admit to enjoying that - with the same table companions each night.

When we sailed HAL it was pretty much the same, and we have enjoyed HAL in many ways even more. Change it seems, is a constant, and the old ways don't last forever.

I booked a HAL cruise a few days ago and I am told we have AYW dining. We see now that formal evening dress codes are relaxed...to the point of jeans and shorts in more and more lines. To escape to something different like the alternate dining rooms for example, you must pay a premium which I understand...yet even on this board we see people asking about the rules of bringing 7 year old twins into restaurants like the Pinacle without having to pay the premium and letting them eat from the main dining room childrens menu.

I love children as much as the next person, but it seems more and more, an ELEGANT, ADULT dining experience is rapidly becoming a thing of the past on a cruise ship.

If this is what the market wants then so be it. Cruise companies are not culture/tradition police, they are profit making organizations and they will do whatever someone convinces them is in the best interest of their shareholders.

I will not be an old fart...I will step aside and let whoever follows enjoy their day as we enjoyed ours.

Maybe old cruisers never die, they just sail away.:)

Smooth sailing to everyone.

[iancal]

HAL's dress policy will not be decided on this board. It will be decided by the bottom line. If HAL can achieve higher revenues per person and achieve higher occupancy by going casual-whatever that means, then this is what HAL will do. Carnival shareholders will insist on it. HAL is in business to make money. Upholding tradition may be fine, but not if it hurts the bottom line, ie the shareholders. This is how the world works. Some may not like it, but then again they may not be stockholders.

[donaldsc]

Hopefully when h*** freezes over.

DON

[world~citizen]

HAL's dress policy will not be decided on this board. It will be decided by the bottom line. If HAL can achieve higher revenues per person and achieve higher occupancy by going casual-whatever that means, then this is what HAL will do. Carnival shareholders will insist on it. HAL is in business to make money. Upholding tradition may be fine, but not if it hurts the bottom line, ie the shareholders. This is how the world works. Some may not like it, but then again they may not be stockholders.

My point exactly!

[caviargal]

... but it seems more and more, an ELEGANT, ADULT dining experience is rapidly becoming a thing of the past on a cruise ship.

If this is what the market wants then so be it. Cruise companies are not culture/tradition police, they are profit making organizations and they will do whatever someone convinces them is in the best interest of their shareholders.

I will not be an old fart...I will step aside and let whoever follows enjoy their day as we enjoyed ours.

Maybe old cruisers never die, they just sail away.:)

Smooth sailing to everyone.

Excellent post and I am in full agreement.:)

[lettienets]

How do you define dress shorts ?

Do white knee socks with sandals go with dress shorts ? :D [/quote]

I noticed last summer "dress shorts" for women entered the working world in Toronto but they are smart looking, tailored, close to the knee, worn with a matching jacket, pantihose and dress shoes with closed toe or flats.

[spongerob]

OMG!

PEOPLE DO THAT? do they WANT the job?

I always go in a skirt or dress with make-up and hair done.That's definitely a surefire way to get noticed, John.

:) :D

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

How do you define dress shorts ?

Do white knee socks with sandals go with dress shorts ? :D

I noticed last summer "dress shorts" for women entered the working world in Toronto but they are smart looking, tailored, close to the knee, worn with a matching jacket, pantihose and dress shoes with closed toe or flats.[/QUOTE]

I could possibly see like kakhi capri's being 'ok' for casual...POSSIBLY.

[RevNeal]

world~citizen, after much reflection I find myself in total agreement with you on this. It serves no purpose, other than harm to my blood pressure, to become all bent out of shape over this. For several years I have lamented to decline in dressing standards and the disrespect that so many are showing for the Line, their fellow passengers, and for the traditions of cruising. While I may mourn the loss of the tradition and the joy of cruising in general, it serves no purpose to try and "crusade" for it, as if there is really anything that the likes of us can do about it. It's not worth the ulcers, nor the unhappiness, and I'll not engage in any of that anymore. Some people thrive on the fight, others thrive on making traditionalists uncomfortable, or unhappy, or both. For myself, I've grown weary of the whole gymkhana; it's not worth the upset, the depression, or the frustration ... nor is it worth having my nose rubbed in my disappointment by those few mean-spirited people who hate my guts. I refuse to give them the satisfaction of making me miserable.

If the day ever comes when I am made to feel uncomfortable dressing up for dinner on a cruise, that cruise will be my last. There will be other ways to spend my money other than forking it over to HAL or Cunard or some other Line. I know what I want in a cruise, and when I can't get it I won't be gritting my teeth and shaking my fist. I'll go do something else and keep on enjoying life (much to the consternation of SWMNBN). If HAL, or any other Line, wants my business -- and the business of people like me -- they can cater to me and provide the kind of cruise experience I desire. Otherwise ... bye bye.

[tutak]

..I'll go do something else and keep on enjoying life (much to the consternation of SWMNBN)...

SWMNBN? I am both new to HAL and admittedly stupid.

[RevNeal]

SWMNBN? I am both new to HAL and admittedly stupid.

No, you're not stupid. There's no real reason why you should know that particular code ... and it doesn't even have anything to do with HAL, in particular. It's a bit of shorthand that some will understand, others not. If you're familiar with the Harry Potter novels, you may catch it :) Sorry ... I probably should have worded it differently.

Welcome to HAL, by the way!

[Peggy Sue]

I've enjoyed this thread ...nice conversation with folks expressing their personal opinions with most behaving nicely ...

I agree with a previous poster concerning what women wear for formal nights ..they are not held to the same standards as men (i.e. wear tux or suit) I've seen most dressed in cocktail and evening gowns, but I've also seen on every cruise a significant number of women wearing what I consider office attire ..a nice dress or pant suit, but certainly nothing that would seem out of the ordinary if they showed up in the office wearing the same exact outfit, and it certainly wouldn't be classified as formal attire.

Rita made some very good points in her posts. We do dress every day for the office, and there are times we just don't feel like doing so on a ship. However, we do not go into the main dining rooms or the show lounges and honor the ship dress code for the evening.

Although not a fan of our recent Princess cruise experinces, we did enjoy being on-board the Caribbean Princess ..packing NO formal attire, eating in their Lido and watching a movie under the stars of their formal nights ..for us, and the type of vacation we were seeking that week, it was pure bliss and something we enjoyed much more than dressing up ..it was just the two of us of this cruise, and it's what we wanted to do and the cruise line provided a place for us to go and do what we wanted and provided those that wanted formal attire 5 dining venues and multiple show lounges ... fair enough to me.

I will say a couple of years ago on this board I had mentioned that when on an Alaksan cruise (Zaandam) we came back to the ship late after touring all day .. we were tired and just wanted a quick dinner before turning in for the night. I mentioned we went to the Lido (in our jeans) and asked before entering if we were dressed OK .. we were greeted with a broad smile and advised we were more than welcome in the lido ..it wasn't a formal night ..there were folks in there with jeans, shorts, etc. ...we certainly were the norm and not the exception. We ate and retired for the eveing ...again, never went to a lounge or anywhere else on the ship ..there were several here who posted that the the dress code is for the ENTIRE ship and we should have stayed in our cabin with room service or changed into casual clothes. I say to that ... please, get a life. We harmed no one, we asked, we were welcomed and we enjoyed our meal.

Cruise lines will listen to their passengers and also the market share they wish to try and lure to their line. Life changes .. all the way through school I was not allowed to wear anything but dresses ...have you seen what kids are wearing at the bus stops? Fashion changes, life changes ..there are ways for us all to enjoy what we like and co-exist peacefully and be respectful of each other. I think cruise lines will find a way to make it work for their passengers ..providing formal and informal opportuinites for everyone on the same night ... However, I also believe there will be a handful of lines that will continue to offer the formal traditions for several years to come ....Don't know if HAL will be one of them, that will depend upon the market share they are targeting.

Do you all remember when HAL introduced the Zuiderdam and the uproar from their loyal passengers? Lots of comments posted here about not liking the direction, didn't want to sail on them, etc. Fast forward 5 years and here we are with 4 in the fleet and 1 more rolling out soon ....times change, and as far as I can tell, that loyal following is still posting here and they have sailed on the vista class ships and they have enjoyed them ...Where will the dress code issue be 5-years from now???

Peggy

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

Indeed, life's too short.

SWMNBN = She who must not be named.

May everyone's next cruise be a WONDERFUL CRUISE!

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[gizmo]

I think it is coming, just when, remains to be seen.

The first step was AYW, next step will be shorts in the dining at dinner. :rolleyes:

[RevNeal]

I mentioned we went to the Lido (in our jeans) and asked before entering if we were dressed OK .. we were greeted with a broad smile and advised we were more than welcome in the lido ..it wasn't a formal night ..there were folks in there with jeans, shorts, etc. ...we certainly were the norm and not the exception. We ate and retired for the eveing ...again, never went to a lounge or anywhere else on the ship ..there were several here who posted that the the dress code is for the ENTIRE ship and we should have stayed in our cabin with room service or changed into casual clothes.

That was unfortunate; whoever did that was wrong. Yes, the Dress Code is for the entire ship, with the except of the Lido Deck and the Lido Restaurant, which is generally understood as being exempt from the evening's Dress Code for the purpose of providing a place for "casual dining." Also, how long ago was this? For about 2 years, now, jeans have been perfectly acceptable throughout the ship on Casual Nights.

Again, that you were told that by several here is unfortunate.

[RevNeal]

Ahoy!

Indeed, life's too short.

SWMNBN = She who must not be named.

May everyone's next cruise be a WONDERFUL CRUISE!

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

LOL ... that's one possible meaning. :D ;) Another would be "Some Who Must Not Be Named." Take your pick.

[earl_m]

One of the few times in year I have a chance to wear a suit is
at funerals and weddings and formal night on a cruise, I look forward to formal night to get all dress up with the better half.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

SWMBO = She who must be obeyed (John Mortimer, "Rumpole" books).

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[babyher]

Ahoy!

SWMBO = She who must be obeyed (John Mortimer, "Rumpole" books).

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)


I used to love that show :)

[Momee]

On 3/19/08 Noordam I and my three teens obeyed the dress code for smart casual almost every night. We watched people walk into the dining room with bathing suit tops, flip flops, shorts, looking a total mess. I was annoyed and went to the head staff and asked them if the dress code was more lax with so many kids on board. He said it was not. The next night my teens went in with shorts and a nice shirt and nice sandles, but they were in shorts. I saw an older woman shake her head. The next night they did not do it again. My point is although they say no shorts, denim, or flip flops they are worn!!!!!!!!! So do not go crazy bringing many good clothes because casual is worn.

[dakrewser]

On 3/19/08 Noordam I and my three teens obeyed the dress code for smart casual almost every night. We watched people walk into the dining room with bathing suit tops, flip flops, shorts, looking a total mess. I was annoyed and went to the head staff and asked them if the dress code was more lax with so many kids on board. He said it was not. The next night my teens went in with shorts and a nice shirt and nice sandles, but they were in shorts. I saw an older woman shake her head. The next night they did not do it again. My point is although they say no shorts, denim, or flip flops they are worn!!!!!!!!! So do not go crazy bringing many good clothes because casual is worn.

In polite society, people are expected to do what is requested without an armed guard being present to "enforce" policy. If they don't, rarely will they be punished except, of course, by losing any respect that others might have for them.

[kryos]

My point is although they say no shorts, denim, or flip flops they are worn!!!!!!!!! So do not go crazy bringing many good clothes because casual is worn.
Then I think Carnival is smart in just allowing shorts. What's the point of having a dress code if it's not going to be enforced? If HAL is going to say no to shorts, and then turn their heads when people wear them to dinner, they just make themselves look stupid. Just go ahead and welcome shorts as a part of the dress code and be done with it. Then if others in the dining room have a problem with it and "cluck their tongues" when you or your kids come in wearing shorts, then you can just tell them where to go.

It's dumb having a rule and then not enforcing it. Just drop the dumb rule then.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[cruisecrasy]

Yes things used to be really different.

In the past

Everybody got dressed up to fly on an airplanes, and the flight attendants were gorgeous. There was even a time where you actually got a meal on a plane instead of peanuts.

Everyone used to dress up at Wimbledon and the women all wore hats.

Going to get gas meant an attendant would wash your windshield, check your tires and oi,l and fill your tank.

People used to go on a job interviews and actually NOT go in sweat pants.

There are those who claim "One Has To Realize Things Change

The problem is these are the people who are wearing sweatpants to a job interview.

'One HAS To Realize Things Change' - Just an excuse to bend or break the rules to accomodate themselves.. It doesn't always HAVE to do anything if enough folks get off their collective 'duffs' & say 'NO' and therein likely lies the bulk of the problem...

Have happy cruisin'!

[cruisecrasy]

In polite society, people are expected to do what is requested without an armed guard being present to "enforce" policy. If they don't, rarely will they be punished except, of course, by losing any respect that others might have for them.

Shame isn't it...so many folks have to be forced ....rather than doing things
because it is the correct, considerate thing to do...
Guess they weren't taught to be 'polite'........

Have happy cruisin'!

[donaldsc]

People used to go on a job interviews and actually NOT go in sweat pants.

There are those who claim "One Has To Realize Things Change"

The problem is these are the people who are wearing sweatpants to a job interview.

And they get hired in spite of the fact that they dress like slobs, write as if they never took a course in English, cannot spell, have no ability to punctuate a sentence and speak as if they got off the boat yesterday. In fact, many of the people who got off the boat today speak better than they do.

I wish that I could have a short term job as a teacher. The reason that I say short term is that I would be fired after 1 week on the job. I would grade not only on the subject but on their ability to write using good English and correct punctuation and their ability to carry on a literate conversation without using slang every 3d word. It would be a fun week however.

DON

[world~citizen]

world~citizen, after much reflection I find myself in total agreement with you on this. It serves no purpose, other than harm to my blood pressure, to become all bent out of shape over this. For several years I have lamented to decline in dressing standards and the disrespect that so many are showing for the Line, their fellow passengers, and for the traditions of cruising. While I may mourn the loss of the tradition and the joy of cruising in general, it serves no purpose to try and "crusade" for it, as if there is really anything that the likes of us can do about it. It's not worth the ulcers, nor the unhappiness, and I'll not engage in any of that anymore. Some people thrive on the fight, others thrive on making traditionalists uncomfortable, or unhappy, or both. For myself, I've grown weary of the whole gymkhana; it's not worth the upset, the depression, or the frustration ... nor is it worth having my nose rubbed in my disappointment by those few mean-spirited people who hate my guts. I refuse to give them the satisfaction of making me miserable.

If the day ever comes when I am made to feel uncomfortable dressing up for dinner on a cruise, that cruise will be my last. There will be other ways to spend my money other than forking it over to HAL or Cunard or some other Line. I know what I want in a cruise, and when I can't get it I won't be gritting my teeth and shaking my fist. I'll go do something else and keep on enjoying life (much to the consternation of SWMNBN). If HAL, or any other Line, wants my business -- and the business of people like me -- they can cater to me and provide the kind of cruise experience I desire. Otherwise ... bye bye.

Your bombastic post is cogent and expresses my point of view better than I could have.

For your information, I corresponded with HAL about this and I think I got a form letter back - you be the judge. I quote the first sentence:

"Thank you for your correspondence with Holland America Line regarding your upcoming cruise onboard the XXXdam, XXX XX, 200X."

They didn't even fill in the name of the ship or sailing date!

Well, I'm sure everyone is pretty busy over there. The form letter they chose to send marginally addressed my query - as it seems to have been prepared to respond to a broad range of questions/concerns rather than to my specific communication.

The bottom line...HAL really does not want to hear anything about this. AYW dining and all that implies is a matter of public relations now, the policy is decided.

It still remains my hope to salvage the concept of an alternate restaurant for sophisticated adult dining. The point here is to preserve a venue somewhere on the ship (even at additional cost) where you can look into your life-partners eyes over an elegant dinner on an expensive cruise - and discuss something other than the response of the parents at the next table over to their pre-school son spilling hot dog mustard over his sisters lap.

This too, might be folly.

Smooth sailing always.

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

and discuss something other than the response of the parents at the next table over to their pre-school son spilling hot dog mustard over his sisters lap.


LOL!

[ducklovemama]

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I think that a person should wear whatever they are comfortable in to dinner.I myself enjoy dressing up for dinner formal and all.I think that jeans and shorts are fine. I donot judge people when it comes to that.I could care less if all my tablemates had shorts and jeans on. I care more about their personality and how much I would enjoy having dinner with them each evening.One of my favorite things about cruising is meeting great people from all over.Remember we all attract people that we are ourselves. So if you are a snob you will connect with snobs. If you are friendly and outgoing you will attract that kind of people.Well folks bottom line its their cruise too !!!!!!!!! I donot give a hoot what someone wants to wear and you should'nt too.
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[dakrewser]

It's dumb having a rule and then not enforcing it. Just drop the dumb rule then.



What's dumb is having people think they are above the rules. I don't want to cruise on a ship that has to "enforce" anything. But I do prefer to cruisse with polite, respectful, considerate passengers.

[momofmeg]

One of the reasons that I do not cruise with Carnival. How would you like to be at a table, on formal night, with another couple in shorts - tank tops and baseball hats ?? or some yayho who looks like he just crawled off his tractor ?

Sorry but I'll pass.

I have been told since HAL no longer says in their suggested attire "no jeans" that jeans are now acceptable on casual nights. Carnival was the first to accept jeans, RCI and Princess, not long after.

I just never expected HAL to accept jeans.
So I wonder if HAL will accept shorts also within a few months.

I have a feeling if a person wants to dress nicer on a cruise and have the people around him/her dressed as they are-they will have to cruise Cunard and Oceania.

[momofmeg]

GOOD God !!!!!!!!!I wore a powder blue tux just like that to my prom in 1980 and a silver grey one as usher in my sisters wedding about 1981.

YIKES


you think those were bad????????? You should have seen the bridesmaid dresses *LOL*

Onthe fashion board there was a post that said they saw a man wearing one of these 80's tuxes recently on formal night. Their line of reasoning was they were dressed just as appropriately in their jeans, sloganed tee shirt and sneakers then him, because he was "out of style".

I could not understand their reasoning at all.

[momofmeg]

That's definitely a surefire way to get noticed, John.

:) :D

Rob, that is my daughter Meg. She is a sceince fiction fan-hense her sign on name. So yes she can wear a skirt to an interview and no one will think she is a transvestite. She is a woman-not a man.

[babyher]

Onthe fashion board there was a post that said they saw a man wearing one of these 80's tuxes recently on formal night. Their line of reasoning was they were dressed just as appropriately in their jeans, sloganed tee shirt and sneakers then him, because he was "out of style".

I could not understand their reasoning at all.


*LOL* yea they got me on that one too :)

I haven't seen any of those 70s eyesore tuxes on a cruise yet, byt DW has pointed out a few "former brides maid dresses" on a few formal nights.

They are either apricot, peach, or lime green with a hoop skirt and three quarter inch sleeves, picture hat and a parasol *LOL*

And when the bride always described them to the girls she would say "they are kind of expensive , but they are really nice and you can always wear them again"

Yea right, maybe if Juan and Evita Peron come back into power, you have something to wear to the Inauguration :) :)

[fuzzywuzzy]

In polite society, people are expected to do what is requested without an armed guard being present to "enforce" policy. If they don't, rarely will they be punished except, of course, by losing any respect that others might have for them.

We just returned from a cruise onboard the Maasdam. It was a ten day cruise and almost every night we ate in the diningroom. Never once did I see casual dress. Everyone was very well dressed almost to the point of being formal every night. It was lovely and sophisticated. It was truly a beautiful dining experience.

[Sbilko]

So Carnival has chosen to allow shorts in the dining room for dinner. Could this be one of the reasons the Mr. Fodor, in one of his travel books, referred to Carnival as “The MacDonald’s of the cruise lines”? As I stated in one of my previous posts, I will wear a jacket and tie, on even the casual nights. On a formal night I will be in my Tux or Dinner Jacket. Gentlemen forget, in this day and age, that you dress to compliment and “showoff” your lady :D . I feel very sorry, for the lady, when I see a couple where the lady is dressed to the standard, while her escort is dressed to well below the standard. IMHO

Change is not always for the better, and the next thing that “The MacDonald’s of the cruise lines” will allow will be coveralls, swim suits, and pajamas. I work in Heavy Industrial Construction Management, and for me it is a pleasure to dress to the expected standard for the entire evening. The day that HAL goes this route for dinner is the day we will find another cruise line, which will get a lot of our money in the years to come, as we plan on doing a lot of cruising. As far as the surcharge for a second bag on the airlines being the reason, I say “Hogwash” :eek: . The $25.00 each, so we can bring dress clothing, is not going to make or break us. It is just a cost of cruising.

Remember the old saying, “If you look your best, you feel you’re best”. ;)

[NoNoNanette]

The day that HAL goes this route for dinner is the day we will find another cruise line, which will get a lot of our money in the years to come, as we plan on doing a lot of cruising.

I hesitate to say this, but looking at your published cruise history.....

Too little, too late.

Holland America doesn't seem to be listening to it's "OLD TIMERS" regarding the enforcement of attire. I doubt that anything on this forum is going to change their minds.

They've got a well paid Marketing Department who are looking for the demographic that will make them $$$$$.

If this move on Carnival's part = PROFIT, you can bet that HAL will follow.

Me, I couldn't care less, either way. :)

[kryos]

I wish that I could have a short term job as a teacher. The reason that I say short term is that I would be fired after 1 week on the job. I would grade not only on the subject but on their ability to write using good English and correct punctuation and their ability to carry on a literate conversation without using slang every 3d word. It would be a fun week however.

I get in trouble when I talk like this, but I agree with you 100%. I am absolutely shocked at work when I get some memos where it is obvious the person can't even construct a basic sentence. And, I'm not talking typographical errors here. Those are different. We all make them when we are rushing. I make them on simple memos that I don't waste time to proof.

I used to have a manager, a really wonderful guy, but he absolutely agonized over every memo he put out ... fixing and revising ... because he had such a poor command of the English language. And this guy was not from another country!

I think the problem is that there are not enough teachers who "grade tough." They let a lot of things go and as a result many kids are not learning how to speak or how to write. They also, in some cases, are not getting the proper training at home in knowing how to behave in certain situations. Wearing sweatpants on a job interview? Not in my day, and I'm only 52! Do they actually get the job? I wouldn't even give them the courtesy of an interview dressed in that manner.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

So Carnival has chosen to allow shorts in the dining room for dinner. Could this be one of the reasons the Mr. Fodor, in one of his travel books, referred to Carnival as “The MacDonald’s of the cruise lines”?
Yeah, but MacDonalds does a mighty booming business, wouldn't you agree? So obviously there are people who like MacDonald's and patronize them, right?

Look, I don't know what all this excitement is about. If Carnival wants to allow shorts in the dining room, and they sail their ships week in and week out full, then obviously they are merely responding to public demand, and that's just the mark of a smart businessperson.

True, in our daily lives we have to conform to various dress codes. We have to dress a certain way for work in many cases, we have to dress in an acceptable manner for various functions we must attend. But when we are on a cruise, generally we are on that boat for pleasure ... nothing more and nothing less. So if the public is demanding more flexible dress codes, naturally the cruise line is going to provide them. Obviously for Carnival to make this change, they must have had plenty of input from their passengers in regard to it. They wouldn't just implement it out of the clear blue.

So, if people want to wear shorts in the dining room, let them. Who cares? It doesn't impact my cruise experience one iota, just as it does not impact my enjoyment of a dinner I go out for at home. If the person in the next booth at the Outback is wearing low rider jeans and a halter top, I don't even notice. I'm too busy enjoying my own dinner and companionship. So it won't bother me on a cruise either.

I say dress in whatever manner makes you comfortable. If you love the formal evenings and getting dressed up, then make arrangements with the group you are traveling with to declare your own formal nights where everyone dresses up and hangs out together for the evening. You will draw a lot of looks from the other passengers, and maybe some of them may learn from you.

I say the cruise lines are just trying to offer more options, and for a good segment of the population, that includes more casual dress. But it doesn't mean everyone has to dress that casually. You dress however you feel most comfortable.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

I have a feeling if a person wants to dress nicer on a cruise and have the people around him/her dressed as they are-they will have to cruise Cunard and Oceania.
You very well may be right about that. Don't kid yourself. HAL is a mass market line drawing from just about the EXACT pool of potential passengers that Carnival draws from. So, if Carnival has success with certain implemented policies, the odds are that HAL will not be far behind in implementing those same policies.

Cruise lines today are struggling with staying afloat. In the past, most of the folks who cruised were either "well monied" or older. Especially for the more expensive voyages, more exotic and longer, you have the older passenger demographic because they are the ones who generally have the money, and more importantly, the time to take such a voyage. But those older people are not gonna be sailing forever. They are going to retire, age, become more sickly, etc., etc. Then what do the cruise lines do? They need to have a constantly replenishing group of new cruisers coming up to fill the ships.

Implementing "flexible" policies brings a lot more of these new cruisers onboard. A lot of folks shy away from a cruise ... won't even consider trying it ... because they don't like the traditional trappings of cruising. They want to dine with their own group, EVERY night. They want to be able to dress casually. They want to have a minimum of structure and schedules. So the cruise lines are trying to meet their needs. They do this with relaxed dress codes and open seating dining. NCL goes even one step further and does it with just about everything onboard the ship.

So, sadly, I believe you are right. If we want to enjoy these more "elegant" aspects of cruising ... the fixed dining assignments, the specified dress codes in the dining room, etc., we may very well have to move up to a more expensive cruise line ... one where the "mass market" will not go. And, guess what? Even many of the luxury lines have a totally "resort casual" dress code, and open seating dining onboard their ships. Why? Because obviously that's what their passengers have demanded.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bicker]

I think statements like "McDonald's of cruise lines" is just a defense mechanism, folks upset about how things are trying to express their frustration in a overly-dramatic manner.

Beyond that, what was said earlier about Cunard and Oceania is really important: Suppliers provide options commensurate with what the market wants. As what the market wants changes, what suppliers offer will change. Everyone, of course, thinks their own personal preferences are in some way superior to that of others, but that's just self-serving nonsense. "To each their own" is the rule, and if what you want is what is offered by Cunard and Oceania, then that's where you'll want to go.

[momofmeg]

I think statements like "McDonald's of cruise lines" is just a defense mechanism, folks upset about how things are trying to express their frustration in a overly-dramatic manner.

Beyond that, what was said earlier about Cunard and Oceania is really important: Suppliers provide options commensurate with what the market wants. As what the market wants changes, what suppliers offer will change. Everyone, of course, thinks their own personal preferences are in some way superior to that of others, but that's just self-serving nonsense. "To each their own" is the rule, and if what you want is what is offered by Cunard and Oceania, then that's where you'll want to go.

The one I always loved was the "Walmart" of cruiselines. So many would post that as to why they would not cruise Carnival. I always wondered how many of those NEVER went in Walmart. LOL! granted they may not buy their clothing there, but surely they buy things like shampoo and dog food at good ole Wallyworld if nothing else.

99.9% of these folks would not be saying they cruised HAL or Celebrity instead but RCI. the same line that was the first to follow Carnival with allowing jeans.

This always made me wonder if RCI was the "Target" of crusing. (or with the Mac Donalds anology the "Wendy's" of cruising)

[HeatherInFlorida]

"How long before Hal changes and allows shorts in the dining room ?"

I'd love to answer "when H*** freezes over", but given the direction HAL is going I'd have to guess the answer is probably within the next 1 to 3 years.:(


This is an interesting thread.

I long ago gave up trying to read entrails to predict the future.

I think though I see a trend...and it is one that does not bode well for my continued interest in cruising.

...........................
When we sailed HAL it was pretty much the same, and we have enjoyed HAL in many ways even more. Change it seems, is a constant, and the old ways don't last forever.

.....................
I love children as much as the next person, but it seems more and more, an ELEGANT, ADULT dining experience is rapidly becoming a thing of the past on a cruise ship.

If this is what the market wants then so be it. Cruise companies are not culture/tradition police, they are profit making organizations and they will do whatever someone convinces them is in the best interest of their shareholders.

I will not be an old fart...I will step aside and let whoever follows enjoy their day as we enjoyed ours.

Maybe old cruisers never die, they just sail away.:)

Smooth sailing to everyone.

You have said it so very well. And I agree ... "if this is what the market wants then so be it".

I've been told here I have to accept change, that I should not "threaten" not to cruise. But the truth is that at least for now DH and I have decided to do exactly that .... not cruise.

For every one of us who are disappointed in today's cruise experience vs. the one we remember, there are probably at least 50 or 100 who will step in and take our place. I understand that. We are no loss to HAL.

And we are both so very grateful for the amazing 25 years of cruising we have enjoyed. We'll always have memories of amazing times, meeting wonderful people, and enjoying the old traditions of cruising.:)

[iancal]

Carnival may be called the Wal Mart of cruise lines. Having said that, it would be interesting to conduct an exit poll of Wal Mart shoppers to determine how many of them, or their spouses, are union members or how many of them believe in buying Made in U.S.A. products. After filling out the survey, ask them to open their shopping bags. They are the biggest exporters of American jobs, everyone loves to hate them. Their stores are packed and their sales figures are through the roof.

[cruisecrasy]

And they get hired in spite of the fact that they dress like slobs, write as if they never took a course in English, cannot spell, have no ability to punctuate a sentence and speak as if they got off the boat yesterday. In fact, many of the people who got off the boat today speak better than they do.

I wish that I could have a short term job as a teacher. The reason that I say short term is that I would be fired after 1 week on the job. I would grade not only on the subject but on their ability to write using good English and correct punctuation and their ability to carry on a literate conversation without using slang every 3d word. It would be a fun week however.

DON

I agree but u forgot the four letter words and especially out of childrens & so called 'ladies' mouths!!!!

Have happy cruisin'

[cruisecrasy]

So Carnival has chosen to allow shorts in the dining room for dinner. Could this be one of the reasons the Mr. Fodor, in one of his travel books, referred to Carnival as “The MacDonald’s of the cruise lines”? As I stated in one of my previous posts, I will wear a jacket and tie, on even the casual nights. On a formal night I will be in my Tux or Dinner Jacket. Gentlemen forget, in this day and age, that you dress to compliment and “showoff” your lady :D . I feel very sorry, for the lady, when I see a couple where the lady is dressed to the standard, while her escort is dressed to well below the standard. IMHO

Change is not always for the better, and the next thing that “The MacDonald’s of the cruise lines” will allow will be coveralls, swim suits, and pajamas. I work in Heavy Industrial Construction Management, and for me it is a pleasure to dress to the expected standard for the entire evening. The day that HAL goes this route for dinner is the day we will find another cruise line, which will get a lot of our money in the years to come, as we plan on doing a lot of cruising. As far as the surcharge for a second bag on the airlines being the reason, I say “Hogwash” :eek: . The $25.00 each, so we can bring dress clothing, is not going to make or break us. It is just a cost of cruising.

Remember the old saying, “If you look your best, you feel you’re best”. ;)

and your 'lady' is blessed.

Have happy cruisin'!

[bicker]

For every one of us who are disappointed in today's cruise experience vs. the one we remember, there are probably at least 50 or 100 who will step in and take our place. I understand that. We are no loss to HAL.I suspect it is more than that: These changes happen because the supplier can trade-off two new customers for one old customer (or three for two, or four for three, whatever).

[bicker]

They are the biggest exporters of American jobs, everyone loves to hate them. And of course, Holland America uses foreign labor, and has for many years, if not forever.

I'm not sure how that maps to a comparison, though.

[babyher]

Balk about them all you want .

Carnival is more like the "Liberace of cruise lines"

No matter what you want to say about them, they "Cry all the way to the bank"

[GatorV]

I don't choose Carnival because of the dress code (or lack of) a hat on a mans head at dinner will ruin mine, I'm not that good at ignoringing idots...I don't choose Carnival becasue of the ships (too Carnival like);)

I choose the whole package, HAL....requires a dress code (and inforces it)
I choose HAL because the ships and ships personel are gracious and refined. HAL has been my cruise line of choice since we first sailed on them in the 90's when in my early 40's.

[momofmeg]

And of course, Holland America uses foreign labor, and has for many years, if not forever.

I'm not sure how that maps to a comparison, though.

LOL!

[momofmeg]

Balk about them all you want .

Carnival is more like the "Liberace of cruise lines"

No matter what you want to say about them, they "Cry all the way to the bank"

So true! and if you just read posts at CC-you would think the line is so hated it MUST be going bankrupt-instead of it being the most popular line on the seas.

[GatorV]

So true! and if you just read posts at CC-you would think the line is so hated it MUST be going bankrupt-instead of it being the most popular line on the seas.
People who take HAL ships are true cruisers and love the sea....I have a feeling a true SALT does not sail The Carnival too often

[momofmeg]

People who take HAL ships are true cruisers and love the sea....I have a feeling a true SALT does not sail The Carnival too often

Carnival is NOT my favorite line- and yes HAL is many notches above Carnival. It is RCI loyalists I get sick of an dwho I was referringto-I have cruised both lines enough to know RCI is not any better.

Now HAL is a "horse of a differant color".

Now if you don't "get" my posts-go to the fashion board and read the thread there about the Canrival dresscode-one gal informed me RCI cruisers only wear Seven jeans. Do you believe that? I don't.

[caviargal]

Now if you don't "get" my posts-go to the fashion board and read the thread there about the Canrival dresscode-one gal informed me RCI cruisers only wear Seven jeans. Do you believe that? I don't.

Not for a minute. I have seen outfits on RCI that are as casual as Carnival and NCL and the numbers are growing. Looks like those who like to dress down on vacation will have lots of choices.;)

[momofmeg]

Not for a minute. I have seen outfits on RCI that are as casual as Carnival and NCL and the numbers are growing. Looks like those who like to dress down on vacation will have lots of choices.;)

I just hope HAL does not become like them. I HOPE it is realized HAL is NOT Carnival or RCI and there is a place in the market for what HAL offers.

[HeatherInFlorida]

...................
I choose the whole package, HAL....requires a dress code (and enforces it). I choose HAL because the ships and ships personnel are gracious and refined. HAL has been my cruise line of choice since we first sailed on them in the 90's when in my early 40's.

But they don't enforce it ... that's the problem. HAL's dress code is now nothing more than a "suggestion" which isn't really a code at all. HAL has changed considerably since you first cruised the line in the 90's.

I suspect it is more than that: These changes happen because the supplier can trade-off two new customers for one old customer (or three for two, or four for three, whatever).

Exactly. You see? We actually agree:D .

[momofmeg]

But they don't enforce it ... that's the problem. HAL's dress code is now nothing more than a "suggestion" which isn't really a code at all. HAL has changed considerably since you first cruised the line in the 90's.



Exactly. You see? We actually agree:D .


I think Bicker has hit the nail on the head also. I just WISH there was still a market for us who want a traditionial experience.
It looks as though the only way we will get this (and I mean my family) is to cruise much less often, and save our money for Cunard.

[RuthC]

I just WISH there was still a market for us who want a traditionial experience.
I believe that market does still exist. Unfortunately, I also believe it isn't large enough to fill fourteen ships throughout the year. At least not easily; or at least not as easily as filling fourteen ships with anyone who will pay up.
And there-in lies the problem---both for those of us looking for a traditional experience, and HAL.

Back to the question at hand, though. I'm chuckling at the thought of lots of shorts all over the ship at night, and lots of leather (or leatherette) seating. And the temperature set a tad higher so no one gets cold. ;)
Might find a few people sorry they weren't in long pants when they go to stand up. :eek:

[hammybee]

I think Bicker has hit the nail on the head also. I just WISH there was still a market for us who want a traditionial experience.
It looks as though the only way we will get this (and I mean my family) is to cruise much less often, and save our money for Cunard.

Crystal continues to offer a traditional cruise experience albeit, it's more costly.

[momofmeg]

Crystal continues to offer a traditional cruise experience albeit, it's more costly.

I understand Oceania does also. The problem is with my budget I could only cruise about once every 3 years.

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

I believe that market does still exist. Unfortunately, I also believe it isn't large enough to fill fourteen ships throughout the year. At least not easily; or at least not as easily as filling fourteen ships with anyone who will pay up.
And there-in lies the problem---both for those of us looking for a traditional experience, and HAL.

Back to the question at hand, though. I'm chuckling at the thought of lots of shorts all over the ship at night, and lots of leather (or leatherette) seating. And the temperature set a tad higher so no one gets cold. ;)
Might find a few people sorry they weren't in long pants when they go to stand up. :eek:

the one time I wore shorts in the dinning rooms *lunch on sea day* I had goose bumps on my legs...I was soo cold. so, pants or skirts or dresses w/ hose for me!

[caviargal]

I understand Oceania does also. The problem is with my budget I could only cruise about once every 3 years.

Regent is my first choice though I have not yet tried Crystal or Oceania. For my money, I prefer one fabulous cruise - by my standards every three years - than 3 so so cruises per year. And I really enjoy AI resorts as well, the ones that are adult only and high quality. JMHO.

[momofmeg]

Regent is my first choice though I have not yet tried Crystal or Oceania. For my money, I prefer one fabulous cruise - by my standards every three years - than 3 so so cruises per year. And I really enjoy AI resorts as well, the ones that are adult only and high quality. JMHO.

I just love watching the ocean float by, it is so stress reducing-I am just not sure I could wait 3 years to cruise.

[momofmeg]

the one time I wore shorts in the dinning rooms *lunch on sea day* I had goose bumps on my legs...I was soo cold. so, pants or skirts or dresses w/ hose for me!

and you always have yourself dressed nicely too.

Folks I just thought I would let you know, this is my daughter Meg and she is 23 years old. She takes great pride in her appearance and looking her best.

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

and you always have yourself dressed nicely too.

Folks I just thought I would let you know, this is my daughter Meg and she is 23 years old. She takes great pride in her appearance and looking her best.


I'm the one, with the long formal gown, hair done up, and tiara on... on formal nights...

though, after 3 years, my tiara has finally 'had it' so I won't be using one this time...

*Bridal tiara.. it was Roman empire style..*

[HeatherInFlorida]

I understand Oceania does also. The problem is with my budget I could only cruise about once every 3 years.

And therein lies the problem for many of us. I guess the assumption is that if you prefer a more "traditional" cruising experience, you are more than comfortable financially which is obviously not always the case.

Perhaps Caviargal has it right and the better way to go is to cruise less frequently but receive the experience you're hoping for. However, in the meantime, if you continue to vacation every year, you're still spending the money you would have spent on a cruise.

So .... for some of us at least ... cruising may not be something we continue to do unless we decide to grin and bear it;) . After all, the ocean is still there, the ship is still there.

We cruise mostly because we just love to be out on the open sea. So we'll just do it less often, rent a cottage on the shore and look out over it instead:) .

[hammybee]

I understand Oceania does also. The problem is with my budget I could only cruise about once every 3 years.

Oceania does not do formal nights.

[momofmeg]

Oceania does not do formal nights.

Oh I know and you know after 13 cruises I am "over" the excitement of formal night. I would be happy with just nice casual and all the men wearing a jacket at dinner like on Oceania.

Hey I used to have to buy a new formal gown for each cruise. No more! Now I am not bothered with recyling a gown.

I do love seeing my hubby in his tux though! So I guess I would miss formal night for that reason, huh! LOL!

[momofmeg]

And therein lies the problem for many of us. I guess the assumption is that if you prefer a more "traditional" cruising experience, you are more than comfortable financially which is obviously not always the case.

Perhaps Caviargal has it right and the better way to go is to cruise less frequently but receive the experience you're hoping for. However, in the meantime, if you continue to vacation every year, you're still spending the money you would have spent on a cruise.

So .... for some of us at least ... cruising may not be something we continue to do unless we decide to grin and bear it;) . After all, the ocean is still there, the ship is still there.

We cruise mostly because we just love to be out on the open sea. So we'll just do it less often, rent a cottage on the shore and look out over it instead:) .

That is what hubby and I said. We love the ocean, so maybe we should just do the beach more.

[topspot]

I just don't understand what the big deal is. If you enjoy dressing to the nines, go right ahead. What does it matter that I don't and will likley dress down? It dosen't bother me any to see someone in a tux/gown. Why does it bother so many to see me in my casual clothes?

For all those that want a "traditional" cruise, why not get together and charter a ship for a formal only cruise.:D.

Change happens. There is no stopping it. It's not change for the better or change for the worse, just different. Traditions change all the time. Baseball used to have Sunday doubleheaders. They are gone now. Do I miss them? Sure I do. Does it bother me? Not in the least.

As many have already stated: the cruise line will do what their target market wants.

[pipedreams62]

I've read all these threads and it appears the phone was ringing off the hook at Seattle headquarters with complaints about dressing up for dinner? How did Holland America get away with this torture for so long?

I sometimes ponder. For the person who has to fill shampoo bottles with liquor, stop at a grocery store and buy soda,water and beer, (oh and a cooler also) wear shorts or a bathing suit in the dinig room.

What's the point of actualy going on a cruise? It seems like it would just be easier to stay home in your shorts drink and relax,why bother.

I thought going on a cruise was somewhat of a "Different" experience.

and dressing up was part of it.

[iancal]

Oceana is definately casual. It is at the top of our 'want to try' list. Just waiting for the right cruise at the right price. Friends tell me that it is first rate.

[NoNoNanette]

I thought going on a cruise was somewhat of a "Different" experience.

and dressing up was part of it.

To each his own. Casual dress doesn't faze everyone. Everybody has their own idea of what an "experience" should be.

[scopewest]

I also wonder if the people who are complaining about the relaxation of the dress code are the same people who brag about smuggling alcohol, soda, and water on board while stiffing the staff because "they didn't work hard enough for their tips."

But I guess that's a new thread.

[bicker]

I think Bicker has hit the nail on the head also. I just WISH there was still a market for us who want a traditionial experience. It looks as though the only way we will get this (and I mean my family) is to cruise much less often, and save our money for Cunard.I believe that market does still exist. Unfortunately, I also believe it isn't large enough to fill fourteen ships throughout the year. At least not easily; or at least not as easily as filling fourteen ships with anyone who will pay up. And there-in lies the problem---both for those of us looking for a traditional experience, and HAL.It does indeed explain the problem for those looking for a traditional experience. It isn't necessarily a problem for Holland America; their objective is money, and more money is better than less money. A business should never discriminate: $2 of shareholder value is always better than $1 of shareholder value; i.e., the business should never care which things drive the $2 versus which things drive the $1.

[lovesublime]

You really need a silk tie to complete the outfit, Bob!
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/wickedtemptations_1991_16725504

...and a pocket square

[HeatherInFlorida]

For us it's not so much about Formal Night ... we could easily do without those. I enjoyed them for a long while, but could easily adjust to that change.

On Wind Star I believe they called the dress code casual elegance, something like that. Resort Casual, etc., are fine too. But it's a long way from that to "shorts in the dining room" for dinner.:) Lunch, Breakfast I see nothing wrong with shorts.

It's just nice to dress up a little for dinner ... we just like it.

[ducklovemama]

Yeah, but MacDonalds does a mighty booming business, wouldn't you agree? So obviously there are people who like MacDonald's and patronize them, right?

Look, I don't know what all this excitement is about. If Carnival wants to allow shorts in the dining room, and they sail their ships week in and week out full, then obviously they are merely responding to public demand, and that's just the mark of a smart businessperson.

True, in our daily lives we have to conform to various dress codes. We have to dress a certain way for work in many cases, we have to dress in an acceptable manner for various functions we must attend. But when we are on a cruise, generally we are on that boat for pleasure ... nothing more and nothing less. So if the public is demanding more flexible dress codes, naturally the cruise line is going to provide them. Obviously for Carnival to make this change, they must have had plenty of input from their passengers in regard to it. They wouldn't just implement it out of the clear blue.

So, if people want to wear shorts in the dining room, let them. Who cares? It doesn't impact my cruise experience one iota, just as it does not impact my enjoyment of a dinner I go out for at home. If the person in the next booth at the Outback is wearing low rider jeans and a halter top, I don't even notice. I'm too busy enjoying my own dinner and companionship. So it won't bother me on a cruise either.

I say dress in whatever manner makes you comfortable. If you love the formal evenings and getting dressed up, then make arrangements with the group you are traveling with to declare your own formal nights where everyone dresses up and hangs out together for the evening. You will draw a lot of looks from the other passengers, and maybe some of them may learn from you.

I say the cruise lines are just trying to offer more options, and for a good segment of the population, that includes more casual dress. But it doesn't mean everyone has to dress that casually. You dress however you feel most comfortable.

Blue skies ...

--rita


This is really how I feel as well. Look people get real !!!
Life is just too short to make a fuss over this. Change happens !!! Go on turn the other cheek and enjoy your cruises.I know that I will.:D

[RevNeal]

I just don't understand what the big deal is. If you enjoy dressing to the nines, go right ahead. What does it matter that I don't and will likley dress down? It dosen't bother me any to see someone in a tux/gown. Why does it bother so many to see me in my casual clothes?

Some people don't want to find themselves the only of anything in a crowd. They don't like to "stand out" conspicuously for any reason, and fear being mentally judged by those around them -- "who does she think she is, dressed up like that ... the Queen of the Netherlands???" -- and would rather just "fit in." If "fitting in" means that they cannot dress up like they'd prefer to do, then they lose the experience altogether. It's entirely an emotional response to being "singled out" for something. Those born or raised during the Great Depression are particularly prone to this concern, while children of the 60s tend to seek out the experience.

My mother, for example, doesn't like being made to feel conspicuous about dressing up "too much;" she worries that people in shorts and t-shirts are going to look at her and pass judgement on her as a "stuffed shirt" or "arrogant snob" just because she likes to wear a dress on formal night. Such language is, sometimes, used on this board for those of us who enjoy dressing up, so her concern is VALID (at least, it is in her mind). Indeed, she's worried about this very issue in anticipation of our Alaska Cruise next year. Very worried. It's been about 4 years since she was last on a cruise ... and the problem is obsessing her. I know her ... she's going to turn several shades of an embarrassed-red if she turns out to be the only woman dressed up on formal night ... embarrassed to tears. I've tried to advise her, and it's not helping much ... she hates jeans and doesn't like slacks much, and is afraid she's going to be conspicuous.

I've tried to tell her not to worry about it, but she just looks at me like I'm crazy ... she was brought up to care about what other people thought of her; I was too, but I've long-since changed my mind (thanks to RuthC). I'll dress up on Formal Nights if I please, and if the "down-dressers" don't like it, or if they think the worse of me for doing so, then too bad. Besides, some of them are probably going to think the worse of me, anyway, so "in for a penny, in for a pound," as the old saying goes.

[pipedreams62]

I also wonder if the people who are complaining about the relaxation of the dress code are the same people who brag about smuggling alcohol, soda, and water on board while stiffing the staff because "they didn't work hard enough for their tips."

But I guess that's a new thread.

You're piecing this together perfectly.

It seems they leave a "Trail"

[mamaofami]

[quote=revneal;14057291]Some people don't want to find themselves the only of anything in a crowd. They don't like to "stand out" conspicuously for any reason, and fear being mentally judged by those around them -- "who does she think she is, dressed up like that ... the Queen of the Netherlands???" -- and would rather just "fit in."

I, for one, don't worry about fitting in, but I would feel pretty silly all dressed up on fomral night if 75% of the rest of the passengers were in jeans or shorts. The experience I look forward to is the feel of elegant dining in a beautiful dining room, and I can't get that in a setting that's filled with shorts and jeans.

[RevNeal]

I also wonder if the people who are complaining about the relaxation of the dress code are the same people who brag about smuggling alcohol, soda, and water on board while stiffing the staff because "they didn't work hard enough for their tips."

It's the reverse.

[RevNeal]

I, for one, don't worry about fitting in, but I would feel pretty silly all dressed up on fomral night if 75% of the rest of the passengers were in jeans or shorts. The experience I look forward to is the feel of elegant dining in a beautiful dining room, and I can't get that in a setting that's filled with shorts and jeans.

It's sounds to me like you're using different terminology: "feeling silly" ... but it's the same motivation. You don't want to be one of the only persons dressed up on Formal night. Neither does my mother. You might feel "silly," but she will feel mortified.

[iancal]

I would NEVER consider anyone who dressed in formal attire as a stuff shirt or an arogant snob. I might, if they decided to make derogatory comments about those who did not, ridicule them, or make them feel uncomfortable. But the opposite would be equally so. Far too much of this judging and busybody business these days. People should just get on with it-life's too short as it is.

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

It's the reverse.

Exactly... we've never smuggled anything in, and always tip good.

[jn99]

This is an interesting thread to say the least. As someone new to cruising (haven't taken the first one yet!) I was surprised to see all the fuss here over the AYW dining, freestyle cruising, etc. For me it makes perfect sense to be able to dine when I choose or want to and that may very well be different times on different nights. Thank goodness I have that option now on HAL (factored in the decision over Celebrity)

Anyway... Just as much as I do prefer to dine when I want to, I also really prefer not to dress up to dine (or for anything for that matter), meaning jacket and tie, tux etc. I can't recall the last time I wore a jacket and tie, two job interviews ago I believe :cool:.

However, when it is formal night on the ship, it's formal night and I WILL dress accordingly not simply as I prefer. That is the real issue, people do whatever they want to do when there are laws, rules, regulations, policies, etc. to the contrary. It's a breach of etiquette and decency, the ultimate display of selfishness, and a bigger problem than just folks wearing shorts or jeans on formal nights for their cruise.

How sad that someone actually adhering to policy would be the one left feeling out of place and uncomfortable!

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

This is an interesting thread to say the least. As someone new to cruising (haven't taken the first one yet!) I was surprised to see all the fuss here over the AYW dining, freestyle cruising, etc. For me it makes perfect sense to be able to dine when I choose or want to and that may very well be different times on different nights. Thank goodness I have that option now on HAL (factored in the decision over Celebrity)

Anyway... Just as much as I do prefer to dine when I want to, I also really prefer not to dress up to dine (or for anything for that matter), meaning jacket and tie, tux etc. I can't recall the last time I wore a jacket and tie, two job interviews ago I believe :cool:.

However, when it is formal night on the ship, it's formal night and I WILL dress accordingly not simply as I prefer. That is the real issue, people do whatever they want to do when there are laws, rules, regulations, policies, etc. to the contrary. It's a breach of etiquette and decency, the ultimate display of selfishness, and a bigger problem than just folks wearing shorts or jeans on formal nights for their cruise.

How sad that someone actually adhering to policy would be the one left feeling out of place and uncomfortable!


Exactly..

and it's not JUST shorts..

one cruise...can't remember which one..a table nearby on formal night.. they weren't just 'dressed down' they were dressed in clothes that you would wear to work in your yard or paint the house.

[pipedreams62]

This is an interesting thread to say the least. As someone new to cruising (haven't taken the first one yet!) I was surprised to see all the fuss here over the AYW dining, freestyle cruising, etc. For me it makes perfect sense to be able to dine when I choose or want to and that may very well be different times on different nights. Thank goodness I have that option now on HAL (factored in the decision over Celebrity)

Anyway... Just as much as I do prefer to dine when I want to, I also really prefer not to dress up to dine (or for anything for that matter), meaning jacket and tie, tux etc. I can't recall the last time I wore a jacket and tie, two job interviews ago I believe :cool:.

However, when it is formal night on the ship, it's formal night and I WILL dress accordingly not simply as I prefer. That is the real issue, people do whatever they want to do when there are laws, rules, regulations, policies, etc. to the contrary. It's a breach of etiquette and decency, the ultimate display of selfishness, and a bigger problem than just folks wearing shorts or jeans on formal nights for their cruise.

How sad that someone actually adhering to policy would be the one left feeling out of place and uncomfortable!


Good news. You are going to love your first cruise,and especially the Westerdam. Have fun.

[pipedreams62]

Exactly..

and it's not JUST shorts..

one cruise...can't remember which one..a table nearby on formal night.. they weren't just 'dressed down' they were dressed in clothes that you would wear to work in your yard or paint the house.


it's called the "Unmade Bed Look"

[iancal]

I think the issue rests with HAL. They need to get off the dime and make a decision and follow through with some enforcement (if required). Until they do, this will go on, and on, and on.

So over to you HAL-you created this monster. Don't be a milktoast-make a decision and stick with it.

[Kamloops50]

NEVER!!!!!!
I cruise because myself and DW like to dress up for dinner.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused:

[babyher]

It's sounds to me like you're using different terminology: "feeling silly" ... but it's the same motivation. You don't want to be one of the only persons dressed up on Formal night. Neither does my mother. You might feel "silly," but she will feel mortified.


I understand how you feel Revneal as far as your Mom goes . Mine is pretty much just like her.

Not so much in terms of dress. But she is a "How is it going to look?' person.

"How is it going to look " if you invite Al and Flo and not Phil and Agnes.

"How is it going to look ?" if we don't go to some wake for a third cousins husband we haven't seen in 30 years.

I guess it is a generation thing like you say.

[jn99]

I think the issue rests with HAL. They need to get off the dime and make a decision and follow through with some enforcement (if required). Until they do, this will go on, and on, and on.

So over to you HAL-you created this monster. Don't be a milktoast-make a decision and stick with it.

They need one of those signs like no shirt, no shoes, no service for formal night:

No Suit
No Tie
No Service

But still, the sad thing is that it even needs to be "enforced". It's common decency, the right thing to do is to show up in formal dress if that's the policy...

[iancal]

I prefer informal. I also walk right on board with the wine in my arms-no deception/smuggling required to my knowledge. Never drink soda and show appreciation in the correct manner for good service. But I am not certain what that has to do with the issue.

[pipedreams62]

I have no clue why Holland America would want to touch a shorts policy with a 10 foot pole. There is loads of beautiful shorts and sandals. Just look thru a Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus catalog.

There's gorgeous shorts and sandals for men and women. I'm sure these shorts and sandals would even look fantastic in the dining room.

The problem "shorts allowed" opens up that ugly can of worms,of

"I rolled out of bed and threw some shorts on.

"I wear these same shorts to cut my grass.

Then you have the whole shorts that hang down to your kneecaps


Then you have the shorts that barely hang on your backside and show everyone your underwear.

This is the problem with a 'Shorts Allowed" policy.

It makes it a very difficult situation to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

An elegant lit dining room music playing and you look around and see this?

who wanted this? I forgot?

[HeatherInFlorida]

This is really how I feel as well. Look people get real !!!
Life is just too short to make a fuss over this. Change happens !!! Go on turn the other cheek and enjoy your cruises.I know that I will.:D

This is condescending, don't you think?:o It's fine that you have no problem with change if that's the case. But I have to wonder if it really is if the "change" happens in a direction you don't like.

The fact is that the majority of people have difficulty with change of any kind whether it's their job, their house, where they live, or the vacation they like to take. We are all creatures of habit as well as of the traditions we hold dear.

And HAL's new direction really goes beyond "change" (how I've come to hate that word:( ). Some of us see it as a spiral downward from the traditions we've enjoyed in the past. No one likes to see the things they've enjoyed disintegrate and ever so slowly disappear altogether.

Will some of us "get real" and continue to cruise as always? Sure.

But some of us won't. Doesn't matter to HAL. We know that.

[ducklovemama]

[quote=HeatherInFlorida;14058889]This is condescending, don't you think?:o It's fine that you have no problem with change if that's the case. But I have to wonder if it really is if the "change" happens in a direction you don't like.

The fact is that the majority of people have difficulty with change of any kind whether it's their job, their house, where they live, or the vacation they like to take. We are all creatures of habit as well as of the traditions we hold dear.

And HAL's new direction really goes beyond "change" (how I've come to hate that word:( ). Some of us see it as a spiral downward from the traditions we've enjoyed in the past. No one likes to see the things they've enjoyed disintegrate and ever so slowly disappear altogether.



I really understand where you are comming from and respect what you have to say. Change will always appear in our lives in one form or another. I deal with it all the time in my work place. Sometimes it is very hard for me to accept it. But in the end I do and then I go on.I am sorry but the whole cruise experience goes beyond dress code.I myself enjoy formal nights and I do wear gowns on those nights.But if someone wants to wear shorts or jeans so be it.I enjoy the open sea and the islands. I guess the best thing that we all can do is to choose a cruiseline that is right for us dresscode and all.Also this new dresscode is on carnival cruiselines. I have'nt heard anything from HAL. Have You?

[Bill S]

Several posters have hit the nails on the heads. I think this is a multi-pronged issue, IMO.

The first is the how people interpret what constitutes dress that is appropriate to the dress code for the evening. Formal night dress code is pretty clear, at least for the guys: tux or suit. Still, a few guys wear sport coats and ties, which is fine--at least they are making the effort to comport with the suggested dress. Folks who don't adhere or subscribe to the formal night dress stand out. On our last cruise we saw more people dressed in jeans, shorts and even tee shirts walking around the public areas on formal nights than we have ever seen before. That was their choice. When it came to Smart Casual, boy the dress was all over the sky! Like Nanette said, people may have different feelings about what kind of experience they want or expect. People obviously have different interpretations of Smart Casual or choose to ignore the suggested dress codes for whatever reason.

Thus, to me that is one of the issues with shorts: some folks would think that gym shorts are fine, and some guys might think that their bathing suit qualifies as shorts, and that leads to the second issue: enforcement or more often these days it seems, lack of enforcement.

With the exception of formal nights, we have seldom seen the dining room chiefs "enforce" the evening's dress code. Again, what they perceive themselves as acceptable dress on Smart Casual evenings may vary from what HAL suggests. Additionally, I'm sure they feel uncomfortable asking guests to change to more appropriate attire. As more and more people elect to wear clothing that varies from the suggested dress code for the evening, I imagine that the dining room atmosphere will become more and more like an Applebees or IHOP than a fine dining room. Maybe that is what the HAL management feels it has to permit to cater to the next generation of cruisers. Maybe HAL management is thinking that if they relax the dress code enough, they won't have any reason to keep the Lido restaurant open, thereby saving money.

Still and all, at least for some of us, cruising on HAL will not be as special as it used to be, if that trend continues. I guess that is our chief disappointment. About the best way I can explain this is that with their suggested dress codes, HAL sets for us at least, an expectation of how guests should dress for the eveing.

Just because a person feels that dressing up for dinner is special and enjoyable, does not make one a snob or stuffshirt. And, I am sure that those who dress to a different drummer are probably very nice and interesting people, too.

I don't let the way people are dressed ruin my cruises. But, I can lament about the relaxed dress standards and lack of adherence and enforcement, just as others can cheer about dressing more casually. We should all be able to voice our opinions without being given labels, or without being told to get a life, or without being told to that we need to change our views.

The HAL crew and staff are our hosts, and, even though it is my vacation, paid with my hard earned money, I still think they are entitled to have their policies, requests and guidelines honored and respected as much as is possible. By the way, we have never smuggled aboard any prohibited items nor have we stiffed any of the wonderful HAL staff who have served us.

At least we all enjoy cruising! :)

[Lesuan]

One more vote for no shorts in the dining room. How casual does 'casual' need to be? I like dressing up and it is nice to see my guy in a suit for a change, but it doesn't need to be a tux. And I don't need to wear a long formal gown. Would you go out to a nice restaurant in your home town without spiffing up a little?

[RevNeal]

I prefer informal. I also walk right on board with the wine in my arms-no deception/smuggling required to my knowledge. Never drink soda and show appreciation in the correct manner for good service. But I am not certain what that has to do with the issue.

Bringing wine aboard isn't a violation of the Line's Alcohol Policy. Neither is bringing Soda.

I agree ... it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue of dress codes, other than to note that it's another "code" or "policy" that the Line has which some people ignore.

[jhannah]

... I imagine that the dining room atmosphere will become more and more like an Applebees or IHOP than a fine dining room. I think you're absolutely correct. I've eaten at both those establishments and have nothing against them. But I'm sure as shootin' not going to pay a cruise fare to dine that way!

[cruisecrasy]

I've read all these threads and it appears the phone was ringing off the hook at Seattle headquarters with complaints about dressing up for dinner? How did Holland America get away with this torture for so long?

I sometimes ponder. For the person who has to fill shampoo bottles with liquor, stop at a grocery store and buy soda,water and beer, (oh and a cooler also) wear shorts or a bathing suit in the dinig room.

What's the point of actualy going on a cruise? It seems like it would just be easier to stay home in your shorts drink and relax,why bother.

I thought going on a cruise was somewhat of a "Different" experience.

and dressing up was part of it.

Nailed It!!!! :)

[cruisecrasy]

This is an interesting thread to say the least. As someone new to cruising (haven't taken the first one yet!) I was surprised to see all the fuss here over the AYW dining, freestyle cruising, etc. For me it makes perfect sense to be able to dine when I choose or want to and that may very well be different times on different nights. Thank goodness I have that option now on HAL (factored in the decision over Celebrity)

Anyway... Just as much as I do prefer to dine when I want to, I also really prefer not to dress up to dine (or for anything for that matter), meaning jacket and tie, tux etc. I can't recall the last time I wore a jacket and tie, two job interviews ago I believe :cool:.

However, when it is formal night on the ship, it's formal night and I WILL dress accordingly not simply as I prefer. That is the real issue, people do whatever they want to do when there are laws, rules, regulations, policies, etc. to the contrary. It's a breach of etiquette and decency, the ultimate display of selfishness, and a bigger problem than just folks wearing shorts or jeans on formal nights for their cruise.

How sad that someone actually adhering to policy would be the one left feeling out of place and uncomfortable!

Enjoyed your post...clearly to the point and easily 'understood' :)

Hopefully with a bit of courage and stong conviction, one 'doing' the correct thing should never feel out of place - just 'sorry' for those not doing it..and mentally excusing their behaviour..as simple ignorance..

One takes pride in knowing that they do the correct 'thing'..I know I do..bet u do also!!

Have happy cruisin'

[cruisecrasy]

it's called the "Unmade Bed Look"

Trust you...to 'name' it!!! :)

Poor simple folks - feel a bit sad for them...

Happy cruisin'!

[momofmeg]

Oceana is definately casual. It is at the top of our 'want to try' list. Just waiting for the right cruise at the right price. Friends tell me that it is first rate.

Ihave been told it is casual but casual in the sense that women are wearing linen pantsuits and all the men wear collared shirts and a sport coat or something along those lines-so not "casual" as in everyone is in jeans and sloganed teeshirts and nikes.

I think RCI calls that "smart casual"? so not semi formal but just a step below it, defientely not "dress down Friday" at work.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I really understand where you are coming from and respect what you have to say. Change will always appear in our lives in one form or another. I deal with it all the time in my work place. Sometimes it is very hard for me to accept it. But in the end I do and then I go on.I am sorry but the whole cruise experience goes beyond dress code.I myself enjoy formal nights and I do wear gowns on those nights.But if someone wants to wear shorts or jeans so be it.I enjoy the open sea and the islands. I guess the best thing that we all can do is to choose a cruise line that is right for us dress code and all.Also this new dress code is on carnival cruise lines. I haven't heard anything from HAL. Have You?

Thanks for this post ... really appreciated it!:) I completely agree the cruise experience goes way beyond dress code, but if I'm going to dress formally I feel the overall ambiance in the DR is somewhat lost if others join us in shorts. I have to tell you this has never happened to us and I'm relying purely on what I read here that it is happening.

No, I haven't heard about a new dress code on HAL either, but the thread question was "how long before shorts in the DR.....?" so we're all just responding to that question. Remember that HAL dress code is not really enforced and now is only a "suggestion", not a requirement.

I think you're absolutely correct. I've eaten at both those establishments and have nothing against them. But I'm sure as shootin' not going to pay a cruise fare to dine that way!


I agree, Jim ... Bill's post is terrific and right on target. Have to say I love Applebee's!!! 'Specially the Oriental Chicken Wrap, but like you I'm not going to pay a cruise fare to enjoy that atmosphere:) .


Originally Posted by pipedreams62 http://boards12.cruisecritic.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=14056033#post14056033)
I've read all these threads and it appears the phone was ringing off the hook at Seattle headquarters with complaints about dressing up for dinner? How did Holland America get away with this torture for so long?

I sometimes ponder. For the person who has to fill shampoo bottles with liquor, stop at a grocery store and buy soda,water and beer, (oh and a cooler also) wear shorts or a bathing suit in the dining room.

What's the point of actually going on a cruise? It seems like it would just be easier to stay home in your shorts drink and relax,why bother.

I thought going on a cruise was somewhat of a "Different" experience and dressing up was part of it.


Great post!!!:) You're certainly not alone with these feelings and it's always encouraging when I read that so many others feel the same way.

[teltrainer]

HI,

I am an old fashioned romantic girl (55 years young LOL) who loves to dress up in a pretty dress to look special for my wonderful husband. I also think he looks fabulous in a suit or tux and he wears them to please me as well plus I tell him he looks like my favorite Austin hero, Mr. Darcy (flattery does work!). We always dress for formal night no matter which cruise line and just enjoy the ambience. On casual nights, we dress accordingly.

I'm especially amazed at how sloppy some of the women dress for dinner or in the lounges at night...almost like they go out of their way to look slovenly. Women used to be the ones to hold the men to a higher standard of dress and behavior in public.

But as others have said, the cruise lines will accept or reject dress and other rules depending on the market they want to attract and money to be made.

We love to cruise and save to have a large suite with wrap balcony when possible we can escape from maddening crowds at times. If the dining room casual and formal dress becomes shorts and baseball caps, we can at least dine on our balcony with a nicer view of sea than the dining room will offer.

You can't change other people but I can decide whether I want to be around them and choose a cabin or other line accordingly :)

[iancal]

Don't give HAL any ideas. THey may contract out the first floor of the dining room to Applebees, and then impose a charge for the second level dining room-and at the same time increase the Pinnacle charge.

[bicker]

I think having two levels of dining service is a good idea: Figure something closer to Ruby Tuesday's, though. I'm not sure I'd select that option (probably not), but save passengers $10 per day, each, and I bet that will be a very attractive cost savings for many.

[iancal]

I do not think that HAL would want to save me any money. Seems to me that once I get on a cruise ship, whatever brand, the object is to part me and my hard earned money in the fastest possible manner. I am surprised that they don't have pay toilets in the public areas.

[dakrewser]

I think having two levels of dining service is a good idea: Figure something closer to Ruby Tuesday's, though.

And the difference between Ruby Tuesday's and Applebee's is...????

Some people won't be happy until there's a MacDonald's and a Taco Bell in the Lido...

;)

[Peggy Sue]

There has to be a way for people to co-exist peacefully allowing everyone to enjoy what they believe to be their ideal cruise experience.

We, as customers need to follow the guidelines published by a cruise line, hotel, air line, etc. When people step outside of the rules thier actions usually have a negative impact on others.

A possible solution....
Call the evening dress formal in the dining room, advise passengers in writing that if they choose not to dress formally they are welcome to dine in the lido, where the same menu will be available in a more casual relaxed atmosphere ...HAL should then enfore their rules by turning people away if they are not dressed properly and steer them towards the lido.

or, if they have enough people wishing casual instead of formal, set aside one of the dining rooms as formal for the evening (I know this gets tricky as people don't always get the dining time and venue they wish)

There are ways for a cruise lines to set guidelines that allow passengers to enjoy their cruise experience. I fully understand those of you wishing to continue the formal traditions and also understand those wishing to be more casual ..We enjoy both ..and like to have the option ...providing the cruise line allows it.

I enjoyed that on a recent Princess cruise they set aside 2 nights as non smoking in the casino ..and they enfored the rule ..it was heaven for me personally ..I didn't hear any smokers grumbling around the ship and I didn't grumble on smoking nights ...because I appreciated the cruise provided evenings everyone could enjoy.. Why can't they do this for formal nights ...it doesn't have to be the entire ship ..set aside places that are formal and areas that are casual ..state the rules and then enforce them ..cruise lines will quickly determine what their customers wish on each cruise ...

When we dress casually on formal nights we don't go into the dining room ...when we dress formally we do ....what's the problem with that? Cruise lines can state no shorts on formal nights in the dining room and enforce the rule ...

People are people ...we all see people every day that we wonder if they ever looked in the mirror ...I don't anticiapte it being any different anywhere we vacation ..there are always those who looked like they just rolled out of bed and don't seem to even be aware of it ....I have no control over their appearance ..but HAL CAN and SHOULD turn away anyone who is not following the rules and guide them to an area of the ship where they can be who they wish to be and continue enjoying their cruise.

I'll leave you with this ...years ago when mini skirts became a fashion trend for the first time the office I worked for finally published this guideline .... Those of you who choose to mini should only mini if you mini well ....

That sums it up for me ... people need to look in the mirror .. shorts, etc. don't look good on all body types! people need to follow the rules and we all need to respect each other ....

Peggy

[iancal]

Odd, I think of casual as a collared shirt. They are the only ones that I wear. But scratch the jacket. I like informal, but that does not mean soiled tshirts or ripped jeans. I guess everyone has their own version of informal. Having said that, I could care less is someone wears a T and jeans.

[NoNoNanette]

I'll leave you with this ...years ago when mini skirts became a fashion trend for the first time the office I worked for finally published this guideline .... Those of you who choose to mini should only mini if you mini well ....

You make an excellent point, Penny. :)

I'd much rather see someone dressed "casually" than try to appear "formal" by looking like a stuffed sausage. (Pouring oneself into a tight dress or gown in order to follow a suggestion of attire). :rolleyes:

[pipedreams62]

There has to be a way for people to co-exist peacefully allowing everyone to enjoy what they believe to be their ideal cruise experience.

We, as customers need to follow the guidelines published by a cruise line, hotel, air line, etc. When people step outside of the rules thier actions usually have a negative impact on others.

A possible solution....
Call the evening dress formal in the dining room, advise passengers in writing that if they choose not to dress formally they are welcome to dine in the lido, where the same menu will be available in a more casual relaxed atmosphere ...HAL should then enfore their rules by turning people away if they are not dressed properly and steer them towards the lido.

or, if they have enough people wishing casual instead of formal, set aside one of the dining rooms as formal for the evening (I know this gets tricky as people don't always get the dining time and venue they wish)

There are ways for a cruise lines to set guidelines that allow passengers to enjoy their cruise experience. I fully understand those of you wishing to continue the formal traditions and also understand those wishing to be more casual ..We enjoy both ..and like to have the option ...providing the cruise line allows it.

I enjoyed that on a recent Princess cruise they set aside 2 nights as non smoking in the casino ..and they enfored the rule ..it was heaven for me personally ..I didn't hear any smokers grumbling around the ship and I didn't grumble on smoking nights ...because I appreciated the cruise provided evenings everyone could enjoy.. Why can't they do this for formal nights ...it doesn't have to be the entire ship ..set aside places that are formal and areas that are casual ..state the rules and then enforce them ..cruise lines will quickly determine what their customers wish on each cruise ...

When we dress casually on formal nights we don't go into the dining room ...when we dress formally we do ....what's the problem with that? Cruise lines can state no shorts on formal nights in the dining room and enforce the rule ...

People are people ...we all see people every day that we wonder if they ever looked in the mirror ...I don't anticiapte it being any different anywhere we vacation ..there are always those who looked like they just rolled out of bed and don't seem to even be aware of it ....I have no control over their appearance ..but HAL CAN and SHOULD turn away anyone who is not following the rules and guide them to an area of the ship where they can be who they wish to be and continue enjoying their cruise.

I'll leave you with this ...years ago when mini skirts became a fashion trend for the first time the office I worked for finally published this guideline .... Those of you who choose to mini should only mini if you mini well ....

That sums it up for me ... people need to look in the mirror .. shorts, etc. don't look good on all body types! people need to follow the rules and we all need to respect each other ....

Peggy

The cruise lines can also have the passengers sign a paper that it's $10 a day tipping. That's the end of it. Not 200 people on line the last day of the cruise trying to get their tips removed. No tip,no sail.

[dakrewser]

You make an excellent point, Penny. :)

I'd much rather see someone dressed "casually" than try to appear "formal" by looking like a stuffed sausage. (Pouring oneself into a tight dress or gown in order to follow a suggestion of attire). :rolleyes:


Or vice versa...

[NoNoNanette]

Or vice versa...

Vice Versa, Indeed, Dave! :)

My sentiments hold true for the poor silly fellows who might wish to pour themselves into a tuxedo for photos. *cringing* ;)

IT's "OK" to just enjoy one's cruise if Holland America Line has NO PROBLEM with your attire,

I've found that to be REALITY. I simply adore HAL.

Can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

[cruisecrasy]

HI,

I am an old fashioned romantic girl (55 years young LOL) who loves to dress up in a pretty dress to look special for my wonderful husband. I also think he looks fabulous in a suit or tux and he wears them to please me as well plus I tell him he looks like my favorite Austin hero, Mr. Darcy (flattery does work!). We always dress for formal night no matter which cruise line and just enjoy the ambience. On casual nights, we dress accordingly.

I'm especially amazed at how sloppy some of the women dress for dinner or in the lounges at night...almost like they go out of their way to look slovenly. Women used to be the ones to hold the men to a higher standard of dress and behavior in public.

But as others have said, the cruise lines will accept or reject dress and other rules depending on the market they want to attract and money to be made.

We love to cruise and save to have a large suite with wrap balcony when possible we can escape from maddening crowds at times. If the dining room casual and formal dress becomes shorts and baseball caps, we can at least dine on our balcony with a nicer view of sea than the dining room will offer.

You can't change other people but I can decide whether I want to be around them and choose a cabin or other line accordingly :)

and best of all, your last paragraph nicely sums it all up.

Enjoyed your post!!

Have happy cruisin'!

[pipedreams62]

To all those that have poured themselves into a tuxedo for a picture.

Guess what? They at least made an 'Effort"

[bicker]

And the difference between Ruby Tuesday's and Applebee's is...????The quality of the food.

Some people won't be happy until there's a MacDonald's and a Taco Bell in the Lido...;)Perhaps, but for many people, it isn't about the food, but instead, perhaps, about having extra money for excursions. A lot of people value rock climbing or visiting a Mayan ruin much higher than dining on beef Wellington.

[bicker]

There has to be a way for people to co-exist peacefully allowing everyone to enjoy what they believe to be their ideal cruise experience. Hmmmm.... on the same ship? I'm not so sure. These ships are big, but I think, sometimes, that what folks are objecting to is the fact that the ship is serving people who have a different idea about what their ideal cruise experience is, i.e., that "N" people getting what they want takes away from how much "T" people enjoy their cruise. Read back this thread and previous threads on the topic and see how often folks say that just being in the same room as those "other" people, as they are, is the "problem".

We, as customers need to follow the guidelines published by a cruise line, hotel, air line, etc. When people step outside of the rules thier actions usually have a negative impact on others.No one here disagrees with that. The whole point of this thread is that the cruise lines are changing their guidelines. Why shouldn't we here in this thread expect customers to respect the guidelines published by the cruise line, meaning that if something is permitted, then it is to be expected, and not looked down-upon.

A possible solution....
Call the evening dress formal in the dining room, advise passengers in writing that if they choose not to dress formally they are welcome to dine in the lido, where the same menu will be available in a more casual relaxed atmosphere ...HAL should then enfore their rules by turning people away if they are not dressed properly and steer them towards the lido. That's not the issue. This bit is off-topic, really.

or, if they have enough people wishing casual instead of formal, set aside one of the dining rooms as formal for the evening (I know this gets tricky as people don't always get the dining time and venue they wish) That's just the tip of the iceberg with problems with this idea, but it is the right approach, I believe.

[momofmeg]

Hmmmm.... on the same ship? I'm not so sure. These ships are big, but I think, sometimes, that what folks are objecting to is the fact that the ship is serving people who have a different idea about what their ideal cruise experience is, i.e., that "N" people getting what they want takes away from how much "T" people enjoy their cruise. Read back this thread and previous threads on the topic and see how often folks say that just being in the same room as those "other" people, as they are, is the "problem".

No one here disagrees with that. The whole point of this thread is that the cruise lines are changing their guidelines. Why shouldn't we here in this thread expect customers to respect the guidelines published by the cruise line, meaning that if something is permitted, then it is to be expected, and not looked down-upon.

That's not the issue. This bit is off-topic, really.

That's just the tip of the iceberg with problems with this idea, but it is the right approach, I believe.

So according to your opinion, I want to ask-why crusie HAL? If my cruising experience is not going to be any differant I may as well save my bucks and cruise Carnival.

THAT is my gripe. Why can't there be a market for those who want a traditionial cruise experience? I understand "majority rules" and most just do not want this anymore- but I guess I am wondering why Carnival Corporation has all these differant cruiselines when basicially all of them are becoming the same.

Surely there is still a market for traditionlists. Why can't travel agents stir their customers to a line that fits what their customers want instead of customers feeling their "rights" are trampled on if they can't cruise any line and dress as they wish?

I am not a snob. I just would like to have an atomosphere that I WANT also.

[caviargal]

IT's "OK" to just enjoy one's cruise if Holland America Line has NO PROBLEM with your attire,

I've found that to be REALITY.

:rolleyes:

What I find to be reality is that HAL turns the other cheek so as not to anger paying passengers. This is quite different from them having "NO PROBLEM" with attire. They need to sail full so turn the other cheek when people choose to disregard the published dress code.

I am going on a HAL sponsored travel agent cruise in a few weeks. My welcome letter specified a dress code and we were told we could not wear jeans or shorts in the evenings (all are casual nights on this cruise) or to any business functions as we are expected to uphold the ambiance of the ship. Fine with me as we always dress for dinner and stay that was for the evening. I wish all passengers were held to the same standard.

[kryos]

THAT is my gripe. Why can't there be a market for those who want a traditionial cruise experience?
I read an interesting article probably close to a year back. It talked about the future of cruising, especially in light of the larger ships that are now being built, up to and including Genesis class that will carry 5,000 people.

The article talked about how the whole cruising experience will change with these big ships. Since they hold so many passengers, there is no way to provide a standard cruise experience that will be enjoyed by that many week after week.

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. You and I may be on the same boat, but we can have far different cruise experiences. How can this be, you might ask. Well, it's simple.

When you buy a cruise, you will buy a "bare bones" experience. Passage on the ship, three meals a day in the "standard" dining room or buffet, basic entertainment (think high school revue), etc., etc. Then there will be all kinds of "add on" options that you can use to customize your cruise experience. Let's say you are a real "foodie" and like only the finest of dining. Well, you can add the elegant dining package, which would include x number of dinners in each of three specialty restaurants, a special reserved section in the main dining room on other nights, free cocktails before dinner at a certain lounge two of the nights, free tux rental for the formal affairs, etc., etc. So, the person who likes to dine in elegant ambience will be able to do that by purchasing this package that will include all sorts of things which will appeal to that sort of person.

Let's say another person likes to learn on their cruises. Every cruise will have a couple of general "themes" around which the onboard lectures will be built. Let's say the theme one week is photography. The lecturers will present talks on photography subjects that anyone can attend. But then there will be a series of hands-on classes (kept to smallish groups) that passengers can buy into. Just like the "fine dining" package, these will be priced extra and will include a whole bunch of things that the amatuer photographer would like such as maybe a shore excursion where you go off with a professional photographer to practice your craft. On the same cruise where photography was a theme, there might be two other themes as well ... such as perhaps ballroom dancing and fine wines.

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

The quality of the food.

And which one, may I ask, is the higher quality of food. I would seem to think they are both about equal, or at least are intended to be.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[babyher]

The quality of the food.

Perhaps, but for many people, it isn't about the food, but instead, perhaps, about having extra money for excursions. A lot of people value rock climbing or visiting a Mayan ruin much higher than dining on beef Wellington.


Very well said :)

DW and myself usually cruise with several other couples. We have been best friends for eons and are closer to eachother then we are with some of our family.One thing we all have in common is we love being on a ship out at sea.

After that we are all over the map.

One couple loves nothing more than hitting a beautiful beach and roasting all day (we call them Mr. & Mrs. George Hamilton *LOL*)

Another couple loves any excursion that involves the water, swimming with dolphins, sting rays, jetskiing, whatever

yet another loves any kind of scenic excursion beacause they are big camera buffs and love to take all kinds of pics.

And another will shop til they drop in every store in the port.

DW and I will try anythong once and have joined them on all of these

For us dinner isn't an "event" its the time of day when all of us are together sharing our day with eachother. What did you see while snorkleing?, What did you buy today?, What was such and such museum or whatever like? What funny thing happened to you?

Of course we want the food to be good and have good service and a nice clean ship.

But its not about who's dressed fancier , or is the puff pastry on the Beef Wellington as Flakey as it should be, or real teak wood decks, fresh flowers, genuine art on the walls.

Its about having a good time and sharing time with people you love.

And for the folks that love all the stuff I mentioned above , More power to you, enjoy them and God Bless.

Its just not that important to others and that doesn't make them "slobs", or "rebels", or "dumbed down" . They just enjoy a different experience.

[caviargal]

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

Blue skies ...

--rita

Honestly, no. The idea of sailing on ships this huge has zero appeal and the additional costs to "upgrade" ones experience to what used to be a standard will mean that cruising will not be a good value for those of us who are not happy with mediocre food and service in a chain restaurant atmosphere sitting next to people in jeans and t shirts. Personally, I would much rather go to an upscale resort as these are getting nicer every year and are not so homogenous.

I have cruised the big ships and they are too massive, too impersonal, attract too many families, are too loud, too crowded, too internalized (without the motion and the outdoor decks one could be at any mall or convention property) and have all the ambiance of Mall of America.

No line can be all things to all people and do it well.

[dakrewser]

Vice Versa, Indeed, Dave! :)

My sentiments hold true for the poor silly fellows who might wish to pour themselves into a tuxedo for photos. *cringing* ;)


Um, that's not what I meant, dear. I was talking about all those wearing "age inappropriate" attire thinking it makes them "hip" or "cool" or whatever the current teen argot is...

[dakrewser]

The quality of the food.

You're joking, right? There's as much difference between Applebee's and Ruby Tuesday's as there is between Jack-in-the-box and Wendy's!

Perhaps, but for many people, it isn't about the food, but instead, perhaps, about having extra money for excursions. A lot of people value rock climbing or visiting a Mayan ruin much higher than dining on beef Wellington.

Last I looked, there was no extra charge for eating in the dining room - so that argument carries no weight at all. Unless you're saying that those folks should book a cheaper cruise to go to the same ports - on a different cruise line. I'll agree with that.

[dakrewser]

Of course we want the food to be good and have good service and a nice clean ship.

But its not about who's dressed fancier , or is the puff pastry on the Beef Wellington as Flakey as it should be, or real teak wood decks, fresh flowers, genuine art on the walls.

Its about having a good time and sharing time with people you love.

And for the folks that love all the stuff I mentioned above , More power to you, enjoy them and God Bless.

And there are plenty of other cruise lines that go to those ports without the "ambience" you say you don't want or need. So please, investigate those and leave to us who desire it those things we can only get on HAL.

There's nothing wrong in what you're saying, it's simply different. So investigating a different line, one more in tune with your tastes, seems like a no-brainer.

[Odd Ball]

I read an interesting article probably close to a year back. It talked about the future of cruising, especially in light of the larger ships that are now being built, up to and including Genesis class that will carry 5,000 people.

The article talked about how the whole cruising experience will change with these big ships. Since they hold so many passengers, there is no way to provide a standard cruise experience that will be enjoyed by that many week after week.

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. You and I may be on the same boat, but we can have far different cruise experiences. How can this be, you might ask. Well, it's simple.

When you buy a cruise, you will buy a "bare bones" experience. Passage on the ship, three meals a day in the "standard" dining room or buffet, basic entertainment (think high school revue), etc., etc. Then there will be all kinds of "add on" options that you can use to customize your cruise experience. Let's say you are a real "foodie" and like only the finest of dining. Well, you can add the elegant dining package, which would include x number of dinners in each of three specialty restaurants, a special reserved section in the main dining room on other nights, free cocktails before dinner at a certain lounge two of the nights, free tux rental for the formal affairs, etc., etc. So, the person who likes to dine in elegant ambience will be able to do that by purchasing this package that will include all sorts of things which will appeal to that sort of person.

Let's say another person likes to learn on their cruises. Every cruise will have a couple of general "themes" around which the onboard lectures will be built. Let's say the theme one week is photography. The lecturers will present talks on photography subjects that anyone can attend. But then there will be a series of hands-on classes (kept to smallish groups) that passengers can buy into. Just like the "fine dining" package, these will be priced extra and will include a whole bunch of things that the amatuer photographer would like such as maybe a shore excursion where you go off with a professional photographer to practice your craft. On the same cruise where photography was a theme, there might be two other themes as well ... such as perhaps ballroom dancing and fine wines.

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

Blue skies ...

--rita

Very interesting concepts. The cruise industry could very well go in this direction.

[momofmeg]

I read an interesting article probably close to a year back. It talked about the future of cruising, especially in light of the larger ships that are now being built, up to and including Genesis class that will carry 5,000 people.

The article talked about how the whole cruising experience will change with these big ships. Since they hold so many passengers, there is no way to provide a standard cruise experience that will be enjoyed by that many week after week.

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. You and I may be on the same boat, but we can have far different cruise experiences. How can this be, you might ask. Well, it's simple.

When you buy a cruise, you will buy a "bare bones" experience. Passage on the ship, three meals a day in the "standard" dining room or buffet, basic entertainment (think high school revue), etc., etc. Then there will be all kinds of "add on" options that you can use to customize your cruise experience. Let's say you are a real "foodie" and like only the finest of dining. Well, you can add the elegant dining package, which would include x number of dinners in each of three specialty restaurants, a special reserved section in the main dining room on other nights, free cocktails before dinner at a certain lounge two of the nights, free tux rental for the formal affairs, etc., etc. So, the person who likes to dine in elegant ambience will be able to do that by purchasing this package that will include all sorts of things which will appeal to that sort of person.

Let's say another person likes to learn on their cruises. Every cruise will have a couple of general "themes" around which the onboard lectures will be built. Let's say the theme one week is photography. The lecturers will present talks on photography subjects that anyone can attend. But then there will be a series of hands-on classes (kept to smallish groups) that passengers can buy into. Just like the "fine dining" package, these will be priced extra and will include a whole bunch of things that the amatuer photographer would like such as maybe a shore excursion where you go off with a professional photographer to practice your craft. On the same cruise where photography was a theme, there might be two other themes as well ... such as perhaps ballroom dancing and fine wines.

The bottom line is that many cruise lines WILL be all things to all people, or at least will try to be. They will do it by customizing the cruise experience for their passengers so that you can have a great cruise and I can also have a great cruise, though we both like different things.

Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

Blue skies ...

--rita


Actually I dislike the megaships so no that doe snot appeal to me.

You know my very first cruise was on Carnival Tropicale back in 98. Even though,everyone made fun of Carnival back then as they do today,( even the TA we booked through) we were not so sure we wanted to spend a lot of money until we could see if we enjoyed being on a cruiseship.

The first night at dinner I had on a pair of white jeans and an embrodired tee-shirt (nice tee-not the sloganed type) my waiter tactfully informed me- that I was dressed okay for the first night but I must either wear slacks or a skirt and blouse or dress to dinner the rest of the cruise.

I was mortified somewhat and because I had not brought enough dressier clothing with me, so we ate in the lido restuarant one night. No one was allowed in the dinningroom back then, unless they were dressed appropriately, even on Carnival.

From then on I brought appropriate clothing and enjoyed the nice atomsphere at dinner. We took several more Carnival crusies and a couple of RCI and enjoyed them. Then we noticed that is seemed (after 9-11) that more and more people were not dressing approriately for dinner and were now allowed in the dinningroom.

Then we started to try differant lines seeif a little more upscale line would be better. We found that on Princess, although not as bad as Carnvial and RCI, you still saw a small percentage. On Celebrity almost everyone was dressed to code. We were told HAL, like Celebrity, 99,9% dress to code. ( people did on our one HAL pre 9-11 cruise)

I will be honest will you, I enjoyed my Carnival Tropicale cruise much more then I did Mariner of the Seas, and I would gladly go back on an old dump,like that ship was, if I could have the same nice atmosphere I had on my first cruise.

Call me an idiot but I actually enjoyed the Tropicale, the original Pacific Princess (600 PAX) and the Celebrity Zenith. I found plenty to do on those little ships. I have NO desire to ice skate or watch ice skating, rock climb or go bowling on a ship, or even to watch a movie in the a swimming pool. I am not interested in seeing grass growing on a ship either. Those are all things I can do and see in my home town (or within 25 miles of my home town as I live near Atlanta) if I choose to.

[RuthC]

The author (and I believe he was with CLIA, if I am not mistaken) believes that the cruise experience in the future will be HIGHLY customized. ...
Honestly, I think that could be a good thing, don't you?

No, I don't. That's not for me.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Originally Posted by teltrainer
You can't change other people but I can decide whether I want to be around them and choose a cabin or other line accordingly


Fantastic post!!! Yes we can!!! This is truer than true if that's possible:) .

Note: Applebee's vs. Ruby Tuesday ... maybe it depends where you live, but Applebee's surpasses Ruby Tuesdays in terms of food. Considering Applebee's is not a fine dining establishment in any way, shape, or form, I think it offers a very tasty menu.

But not so much that I want it on a cruise!!!:D

[pipedreams62]

This sounds like the answer for what some people are looking for on this topic. You have a Johnny Rockets restaurant,a rock clinmbing wall,and an ice skating rink,plus a surf pool on the stern.

This seems like a better atmosphere for that "casual" cruiser.

On Holland America,teak decks ,lots of nooks and crannies,dark wood,fresh flowers,they're trying to diplay elegance,and just can't see how shorts fit in,but I guess we'll all dumb down and see won't we?

[JPH814]

They will allow it just after I take my last HAL cruise...or just before I decide never to cruise HAL again.

[gizmo]

JHP814,

Do you know the Philly Phanatic ? Cute picture. :)

[teltrainer]

Glad you enjoyed my comments.

And, Heather...saw your formal night photos in your album and must say you looked quite elegant indeed :)

Enjoy your cruising!

Melissa

[momofmeg]

Fantastic post!!! Yes we can!!! This is truer than true if that's possible:) .

Note: Applebee's vs. Ruby Tuesday ... maybe it depends where you live, but Applebee's surpasses Ruby Tuesdays in terms of food. Considering Applebee's is not a fine dining establishment in any way, shape, or form, I think it offers a very tasty menu.

But not so much that I want it on a cruise!!!:D

Ruby Tuesdays changed their menu to make it more "up scale" and upped their prices in the process. I found it to be the same old Ruby Tuesdays. They may think they are a class above Applebees, TGI Fridays and the dozen or so other chains of restuarants that compete with each other, but if anything they are not as good, and charging more, does not make them better and I doubt they are fooling anyone into believing they are getting better quality or a more upscale experience.

[bicker]

So according to your opinion, I want to ask-why crusie HAL? If my cruising experience is not going to be any differant I may as well save my bucks and cruise Carnival.If I recall correctly, Carnival was more expensive than Holland America for my recent cruise. So the answer to your question is that you can select a cruise based on the itinerary and the fare, and the fact that the people who cruise that cruise line are the kind of people you want to cruise with. Some folks feel that Carnival attracts a much too young audience, especially during college holiday times -- that's reason enough to cruise Holland America instead.

THAT is my gripe. Why can't there be a market for those who want a traditionial cruise experience?There can be (and there is). The point is that a market isn't created by external forces -- a market is created by dollars. If the dollars aren't there, then don't expect a market to be there -- or more precisely, expect the market to be no bigger than the dollars for that market. The smaller the market (i.e., the fewer dollars) the fewer options you'll have in that market, and the fewer economies of scale that market will enjoy.

I understand "majority rules" and most just do not want this anymore- but I guess I am wondering why Carnival Corporation has all these differant cruiselines when basicially all of them are becoming the same.It's only two cruise lines we're talking about: Carnival and Holland America, and even there, I believe there is still a significant difference between the two, specifically with regard to the average age of the passengers.

With regard to the rest of Carnival's lines, Princess is said to provide a higher grade of service -- that's not a matter of "traditional" versus "non-traditional" but a matter of the quality of service provided, etc. And Cunard is a step above that (and has a good bit of the "traditional" tilt as well, FWIR.)

Surely there is still a market for traditionlists.But a smaller one, and one for which you have to pay a higher fare, corresponding to the smaller size of the market. Niche interest always lose the economies of scale discount.

[bicker]

And which one, may I ask, is the higher quality of food.Ruby Tuesday's, by a mile.

[bicker]

Last I looked, there was no extra charge for eating in the dining room - so that argument carries no weight at all.Your missing the point doesn't mean it doesn't carry weight. :rolleyes: Why don't you leave off the extraneous antagonistic sentences and just keep to the topic?

The point you missed is that the change in dining service reflects a change in how much superior dining matters to the typical target cruise passenger for the line. And you don't get to determine who the target is -- they do.

[RevNeal]

Ruby Tuesday's, by a mile.

Which only goes to show that different people have different tastes when it comes to food. One person asserts that Applebees is better, another that Ruby Tuesday wins "by a mile." I have eaten at both ... they appear to be just about the same to me: slight nuances in style, taste, and nomenclature ... nothing more. I prefer Chilis over them both, and Friday's over Chilis ... though that's not saying much given how they're all nearly the same in terms of quality. A similar "distinction" of sameness can be drawn between The Blackeyed Pea and Good Eats.

This is the SAME direction toward which the cruise lines are sailing: one Line has a gimmick, so the other lines have to copy it; we mustn't have anything distinctive because the lemmings want everything to the same everywhere! The way things are going, in the not-too-distant future one won't be able to tell the difference between Cruise Lines without looking at the logo on the ship's funnel and the Vessel's name ("Does it end with ... of the Seas or dam?"). The homogenization of the experience is going to wipe out the range of choices and produce a commonality of mediocrity similar to that found in US Restaurant Chains.

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

Which only goes to show that different people have different tastes when it comes to food. One person asserts that Applebees is better, another that Ruby Tuesday wins "by a mile." I have eaten at both ... they appear to be just about the same to me: slight nuances in style, taste, and nomenclature ... nothing more. I prefer Chilis over them both, and Friday's over Chilis ... though that's not saying much given how they're all nearly the same in terms of quality. A similar "distinction" of sameness can be drawn between The Blackeyed Pea and Good Eats.

This is the SAME direction toward which the cruise lines are sailing: one Line has a gimmick, so the other lines have to copy it; we mustn't have anything distinctive because the lemmings want everything to the same everywhere! The way things are going, in the not-too-distant future one won't be able to tell the difference between Cruise Lines without looking at the logo on the ship's funnel and the Vessel's name ("Does it end with ... of the Seas or dam?"). The homogenization of the experience is going to wipe out the range of choices and produce a commonality of mediocrity similar to that found in US Restaurant Chains.

Yes, that's what I'm afraid of.

I bet the HAL reps are getting a kick of this 'debate' going on.

[pipedreams62]

Which only goes to show that different people have different tastes when it comes to food. One person asserts that Applebees is better, another that Ruby Tuesday wins "by a mile." I have eaten at both ... they appear to be just about the same to me: slight nuances in style, taste, and nomenclature ... nothing more. I prefer Chilis over them both, and Friday's over Chilis ... though that's not saying much given how they're all nearly the same in terms of quality. A similar "distinction" of sameness can be drawn between The Blackeyed Pea and Good Eats.

This is the SAME direction toward which the cruise lines are sailing: one Line has a gimmick, so the other lines have to copy it; we mustn't have anything distinctive because the lemmings want everything to the same everywhere! The way things are going, in the not-too-distant future one won't be able to tell the difference between Cruise Lines without looking at the logo on the ship's funnel and the Vessel's name ("Does it end with ... of the Seas or dam?"). The homogenization of the experience is going to wipe out the range of choices and produce a commonality of mediocrity similar to that found in US Restaurant Chains.

What is even more sad is

Every friday night, people stand outside these these subpar mediocre restaurants with a beeper waiting to get in to eat this scrumptious cuisine.

I always thought the chains you mentioned were places one would stop and eat, after driving 500 miles on a road trip and there was nothing else to choose from. To get in your car ,drive and then wait for this food really is hard to believe.

[dakrewser]

What is even more sad is

Every friday night, people stand outside these these subpar mediocre restaurants with a beeper waiting to get in to eat this scrumptious cuisine.

I always thought the chains you mentioned were places one would stop and eat, after driving 500 miles on a road trip and there was nothing else to choose from. To get in your car ,drive and then wait for this food really is hard to believe.

It all depends on where you live, I think. We lived in Texas for 10 years - great BBQ, really good "Texican" but otherwise you would line up for TGIRubyChiliAppleby because otherwise it was MacDonald's - or worse. Now that we live in what has to be the greatest part of the US for restaurants, the only time we even think about a "casual family restaurant" is at the end of a long road trip.

[dakrewser]

Your missing the point doesn't mean it doesn't carry weight. :rolleyes: Why don't you leave off the extraneous antagonistic sentences and just keep to the topic?

The point you missed is that the change in dining service reflects a change in how much superior dining matters to the typical target cruise passenger for the line. And you don't get to determine who the target is -- they do.

In this case their target is "enough people to fill 14 ships every week," without regard to demographics.

But it's not as if the ships were sailing with unfilled cabins - they weren't. Just some brand new MBA that got hired cheap decided that they needed to prepare now for the coming die-off of their current clientèle. What he/she didn't take into account is that the US population is aging and every retiree who dies off is replaced by two more. There are fewer 20-somethings, and more 60-somethings, every day.

[RevNeal]

It all depends on where you live, I think. We lived in Texas for 10 years - great BBQ, really good "Texican" but otherwise you would line up for TGIRubyChiliAppleby because otherwise it was MacDonald's - or worse. Now that we live in what has to be the greatest part of the US for restaurants, the only time we even think about a "casual family restaurant" is at the end of a long road trip.

Well ... now ... Dave ... I live in Dallas and there are a large number of exceedingly excellent Restaurants around here outside of the BBQ / TexMex selections. However, 'tis true that there are a HUGE number the lower standard restaurant chains, too, and a LOT of people (myself included, I'm sorry to say) frequent them because sometimes it's just too expensive to eat at Ruth Chris, Maggianos, or Houston's every night. :D

[jn99]

I recently moved from the Dallas area (too hot!) and while there are certianly more chain restaurants there than anywhere I have ever been in my life, my favorite restaurants in the entire world are there too. Shameful quantities of meat consumed at Fogo de Chao, Texas de Brazil, and Boi Na Braza - yum! It's probably for the better that we moved :D

This has nothing to do with shorts in cruise line dining rooms mind you but as the thread has turned to restaurants and Dallas was mentioned it just got me to thinking about these places (wipes away tears...).

[bicker]

In this case their target is "enough people to fill 14 ships every week," without regard to demographics. Business is never "without regard to demographics". It may, however, be a different group of demographics than in the past and/or than what any specific person may prefer it to be.

But it's not as if the ships were sailing with unfilled cabins - they weren't. Just some brand new MBA that got hired cheap decided that they needed to prepare now for the coming die-off of their current clientèle.Is there any documentary evidence of what you're saying? If not, I'll guess you're wrong.

[Taxguy7]

Which only goes to show that different people have different tastes when it comes to food. One person asserts that Applebees is better, another that Ruby Tuesday wins "by a mile." I have eaten at both ... they appear to be just about the same to me: slight nuances in style, taste, and nomenclature ... nothing more. I prefer Chilis over them both, and Friday's over Chilis ... though that's not saying much given how they're all nearly the same in terms of quality. A similar "distinction" of sameness can be drawn between The Blackeyed Pea and Good Eats.

This is the SAME direction toward which the cruise lines are sailing: one Line has a gimmick, so the other lines have to copy it; we mustn't have anything distinctive because the lemmings want everything to the same everywhere! The way things are going, in the not-too-distant future one won't be able to tell the difference between Cruise Lines without looking at the logo on the ship's funnel and the Vessel's name ("Does it end with ... of the Seas or dam?"). The homogenization of the experience is going to wipe out the range of choices and produce a commonality of mediocrity similar to that found in US Restaurant Chains.

God forbid!
I'm getting old and thought I would stop cruising 2 years ago, but I keep seeing great itineraries on ships with under 2000 pax and keep booking. Still, the Applebees nearest home isn't worth going to if it were free yet I've been to some that were very good. Maybe the smaller older ships, sailing to and from countries other than the US, will have the ambiance some like. There will always be some holdouts. :o

[Taxguy7]

In this case their target is "enough people to fill 14 ships every week," without regard to demographics.

But it's not as if the ships were sailing with unfilled cabins - they weren't. Just some brand new MBA that got hired cheap decided that they needed to prepare now for the coming die-off of their current clientèle. What he/she didn't take into account is that the US population is aging and every retiree who dies off is replaced by two more. There are fewer 20-somethings, and more 60-somethings, every day.
AND the average 20-somethings are in debt up to their eyeballs while the average cruising 60+ has disposable income (which he/she WILL dispose of);)

[Taxguy7]

Well ... now ... Dave ... I live in Dallas and there are a large number of exceedingly excellent Restaurants around here outside of the BBQ / TexMex selections. However, 'tis true that there are a HUGE number the lower standard restaurant chains, too, and a LOT of people (myself included, I'm sorry to say) frequent them because sometimes it's just too expensive to eat at Ruth Chris, Maggianos, or Houston's every night. :D
Maybe they livedin a smaller community. I live in deep South Texas, and we have just what he said, except we don't have many good BBQ resturants. About 25% of the places don't have an English menu or E ng speaking waitstaff. That's why I spend over half my time at South Padre Island, a wide chooice of eating places (2 might be classified a fine).:mad:

[dakrewser]

Maybe they livedin a smaller community. I live in deep South Texas, and we have just what he said, except we don't have many good BBQ resturants. About 25% of the places don't have an English menu or E ng speaking waitstaff. That's why I spend over half my time at South Padre Island, a wide chooice of eating places (2 might be classified a fine).:mad:

Actually, we lived in Austin :rolleyes:

But here, in tiny little Sunnyvale, CA I can walk to (within 1 mile) excellent non-chain Italian (Tuscan Trattoria style, not Italo-American), Lebanese, Indian, Thai, Chinese, Japanese, Greek, "Californian" and German restaurants as well as a couple of "faux Irish" pubs (but one has good Shepherd's Pie and the other does a great halibut and chips!). If we get in the car and drive 10 minutes to the next town (Mountain View) we can find excellent Mexican (real Mexican, not Tex-Mex), Filipino, Vietnamese, Seafood, Spanish/Tapas, Indonesian and even a Michelin starred restaurant. Also good Italian, French, Mexican, Thai, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Pubs, etc. And not a single one of them is part of a chain! In every single one the owner is either out front greeting the diners or in back supervising the kitchen.

It's something we didn't see in Austin, nor in Richmond, VA when we lived there. Baltimore comes close but still has far too many chains. Washington DC had good restaurants, but all were way out of my price range (I wasn't a lobbyist!).

To tell you the truth, I think I would like to see the "food court" concept introduced on HAL ships instead of the "anytime dining" stuff. Then leave the traditional dining room for those of us who appreciate it.

[RevNeal]

In this case their target is "enough people to fill 14 ships every week," without regard to demographics.

But it's not as if the ships were sailing with unfilled cabins - they weren't. Just some brand new MBA that got hired cheap decided that they needed to prepare now for the coming die-off of their current clientèle. What he/she didn't take into account is that the US population is aging and every retiree who dies off is replaced by two more. There are fewer 20-somethings, and more 60-somethings, every day.

True ... but your missing one point.
In 1990 the HAL fleet numbered 4 vessels (the then Westerdam, the then Noordam, the Nieuw Amsterdam, and the Rotterdam V). Today the line numbers 13 vessels, with a 14th due in July. This means that there are about 7-times as many cabins needing to be filled (given ten more ships, and all but one of the fourteen being larger than the largest of the four in 1990).

[world~citizen]

This is the SAME direction toward which the cruise lines are sailing: one Line has a gimmick, so the other lines have to copy it; we mustn't have anything distinctive because the lemmings want everything to the same everywhere! The way things are going, in the not-too-distant future one won't be able to tell the difference between Cruise Lines without looking at the logo on the ship's funnel and the Vessel's name ("Does it end with ... of the Seas or dam?"). The homogenization of the experience is going to wipe out the range of choices and produce a commonality of mediocrity similar to that found in US Restaurant Chains.

I remember when specialty coffee on Celebrity came with a Cova chocolate. I remember when specialty coffee on HAL was complimentary. Dining was fixed, free and elegant. Even dining in the Odyssey restaurant on the Rotterdam VI was offered at no extra charge.

Today, its rent an ipod, buy an internet plan, rent a cabana and "As You Wish" dining. We pay for our dinner in the alternate restaurant. That is not to mention art auctions, gold by the inch, suits made to measure, and get your teeth whitened. More and more, every square inch of the ship is given over to an often distasteful style of revenue generation.

I am horrified to think of where it is all leading. I cannot rule out that HAL envisions the day when food services will liken to a giant food court, where every food taste and style is catered to..."for a moderate additional fee". Once traditional dining is eliminated, we enter a whole new world of possibilities - and as far as I am concerned AYW dining is a harbinger of just that.

Well, if it does happen, it won't be overnight. I suppose there are still a number of good cruising years left. So, we intend to enjoy them while they last.

Smooth sailing...

[RevNeal]

I remember when specialty coffee on Celebrity came with a Cova chocolate. I remember when specialty coffee on HAL was complimentary. Dining was fixed, free and elegant. Even dining in the Odyssey restaurant on the Rotterdam VI was offered at no extra charge.

Yes ... those were the days. I remember them well.

Today, its rent an ipod, buy an internet plan, rent a cabana and "As You Wish" dining. We pay for our dinner in the alternate restaurant. That is not to mention art auctions, gold by the inch, suits made to measure, and get your teeth whitened. More and more, every square inch of the ship is given over to an often distasteful style of revenue generation.

I am horrified to think of where it is all leading. I cannot rule out that HAL envisions the day when food services will liken to a giant food court, where every food taste and style is catered to..."for a moderate additional fee". Once traditional dining is eliminated, we enter a whole new world of possibilities - and as far as I am concerned AYW dining is a harbinger of just that.

Well, if it does happen, it won't be overnight. I suppose there are still a number of good cruising years left. So, we intend to enjoy them while they last....

I read ya loud and clear. When that day comes, I'll go to wherever i can find a niche player that will provide me with the kind of cruise I want. Or, I'll spend my money in another way.

[HeatherInFlorida]

.

And, Heather...saw your formal night photos in your album and must say you looked quite elegant indeed :)

Enjoy your cruising!

Melissa

Thank you, Melissa ... you're very kind:) .

Greg, to be fair .... I only ate at Ruby Tuesday's once and I got sick so I never returned. As I ate I knew the grease would not be a good thing. That never happened at Applebee's:D . Hence my vote for Applebee's!!!;)

I always promised that when I got old enough to tell the stories of what once was and say that times were so much better then, I wouldn't do it. I lied:o .

I am there and they were.

[babyher]

Thank you, Melissa ... you're very kind:) .

Greg, to be fair .... I only ate at Ruby Tuesday's once and I got sick so I never returned. As I ate I knew the grease would not be a good thing. That never happened at Applebee's:D . Hence my vote for Applebee's!!!;)

I always promised that when I got old enough to tell the stories of what once was and say that times were so much better then, I wouldn't do it. I lied:o .

I am there and they were.


Don't worry Heather


I used to hate when my parents would give me the "Well when I was your age " lecture.

Well years and three teens later guess what I am doing *LOL*

P.S
I agree I love all your pics and you and DH do make an elegant couple :)

[bicker]

To tell you the truth, I think I would like to see the "food court" concept introduced on HAL ships instead of the "anytime dining" stuff. Then leave the traditional dining room for those of us who appreciate it.For an additional fee, perhaps $20 per night. That way, everyone gets something they want. The folks who want formal, fine dining get that. The folks who want to save money get that. And the cruise line gets more revenue, making it acceptable for them to make the change in that direction.

[kryos]

Ruby Tuesday's, by a mile.
I'm glad you said that, because I absolutely can't stand Applebee's ... and there is an Applebee's located about one block from my home. Everytime I eat there I get sick to my stomach, so I decided to just swear off of them after this last time in January.

I haven't been to Ruby Tuesday's in a long while, so I can't remember if I enjoyed their food or not.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bicker]

I'm glad you said that, because I absolutely can't stand Applebee's ... and there is an Applebee's located about one block from my home. Everytime I eat there I get sick to my stomach, so I decided to just swear off of them after this last time in January.We have one on block from our house as well. We like it well-enough. Never have gotten sick, and always had a good meal. But Ruby Tuesday is a bunch better: For example, Ruby Tuesday has more than one seafood option, and the seafood has been consistently better than the one seafood option at Applebee's.

I'm sorry I got this thread off on this stupid tangent. If folks prefer, replace "Ruby Tuesday" with Legal Seafood, Border Cafe or even Chili's... anything that is a quantum leap above Applebee's, Bennigan's and TGIFriday's, but a quantum leap below Capital Grill and fine dining establishments like it.

[momofmeg]

If I recall correctly, Carnival was more expensive than Holland America for my recent cruise. So the answer to your question is that you can select a cruise based on the itinerary and the fare, and the fact that the people who cruise that cruise line are the kind of people you want to cruise with. Some folks feel that Carnival attracts a much too young audience, especially during college holiday times -- that's reason enough to cruise Holland America instead.

There can be (and there is). The point is that a market isn't created by external forces -- a market is created by dollars. If the dollars aren't there, then don't expect a market to be there -- or more precisely, expect the market to be no bigger than the dollars for that market. The smaller the market (i.e., the fewer dollars) the fewer options you'll have in that market, and the fewer economies of scale that market will enjoy.

It's only two cruise lines we're talking about: Carnival and Holland America, and even there, I believe there is still a significant difference between the two, specifically with regard to the average age of the passengers.

With regard to the rest of Carnival's lines, Princess is said to provide a higher grade of service -- that's not a matter of "traditional" versus "non-traditional" but a matter of the quality of service provided, etc. And Cunard is a step above that (and has a good bit of the "traditional" tilt as well, FWIR.)

But a smaller one, and one for which you have to pay a higher fare, corresponding to the smaller size of the market. Niche interest always lose the economies of scale discount.

Oh I know tha tis true at times. When we booked our first HAL crusie Carnival Spirit was a brand new ship doing Alaska and it was too steep. Hal Statendam was actually a much better price.

My point is, I have found Carinal which used to have ambiance and had an enforced dress for dinner inthe dinningroom, has gone downhill, which is WHY I prefer not to to cruise them. The ambiance at dinner is just not there anymore.

I know Celebrity still has the ambiance and I enjoy crusing Celebrity, I just find them normally a little steep in price for our pocket book-which is why we (my hubby and I, who agrees with me) decided to try HAL again. We were told HAL still has that ambiance also, but if we find HAL doesn't, then I guess we may as well cruise Carnival, or WHATEVER line has the CHEAPEST deal.

Yes I could have cruised Carnival Triumph for less money this upcoming cruise, and I would have gone to Grand Turk and Half Moon Cay, the ports I wanted to enjoy. We booked Westerdam because we felt that would be the more enjoyable experience for us and more like the traditionial cruise experience that we want.

May I ask why you like HAL? Why do YOU feel HAL is better then Carnival? I ask this because you find my idea of why to be foolish.

[momofmeg]

We have one on block from our house as well. We like it well-enough. Never have gotten sick, and always had a good meal. But Ruby Tuesday is a bunch better: For example, Ruby Tuesday has more than one seafood option, and the seafood has been consistently better than the one seafood option at Applebee's.

I'm sorry I got this thread off on this stupid tangent. If folks prefer, replace "Ruby Tuesday" with Legal Seafood, Border Cafe or even Chili's... anything that is a quantum leap above Applebee's, Bennigan's and TGIFriday's, but a quantum leap below Capital Grill and fine dining establishments like it.

I am not a seafood lover-but my hubby is-but no he would not go for seafood at Applebees or Ruby Tuesdays. He likes to go to a specialty seafood restuarant for that.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I am not a seafood lover-but my hubby is-but no he would not go for seafood at Applebees or Ruby Tuesdays. He likes to go to a specialty seafood restuarant for that.

Me, too!!! Reading all the above I couldn't help thinking ..... seafood at Applebee's? Or Ruby Tuesday's???? I don't think so!!!!!!

I'm very cautious where I order seafood.

So I'm adding a caveat to my vote for Applebee's:) . I ALWAYS have the Oriental Chicken Salad which is fantastic and DH says the steaks are just short of a Longhorn's which are pretty darn good (for that price range).

I would love to board a ship and find a salad to come even close to the Oriental Chicken at Applebee's.:)

[momofmeg]

Me, too!!! Reading all the above I couldn't help thinking ..... seafood at Applebee's? Or Ruby Tuesday's???? I don't think so!!!!!!

I'm very cautious where I order seafood.

So I'm adding a caveat to my vote for Applebee's:) . I ALWAYS have the Oriental Chicken Salad which is fantastic and DH says the steaks are just short of a Longhorn's which are pretty darn good (for that price range).

I would love to board a ship and find a salad to come even close to the Oriental Chicken at Applebee's.:)

Plus Bicker is from Boston-so why in the WORLD would he go to Ruby Tuesday's for seafood? There has to be many restuarants in Boston that have fresh seafood.