Another Eurodam Sailing Cancelled

[Catalina56]

My travel agent called me today and told me that HAL has canceled the EURODAM sailing on January 31, 2009. I was also on the Eurodam sailing on October 18, 2008 and they canceled that one to. HAL also canceled another Eurodam sailing prior to January, 2009. All of the cancellations were due to the chartering the vessel out to groups/companies.

I just bought my airline tickets two days and of course they are non-refundable, $100. cancellation fee per ticket.

Does anyone know if HAL has offerred any kind of compensation for cancelling this sailing. Thanks for any help with this matter.

Catalina56

[jhannah]

I would imagine HAL will take care of you. Be sure your TA tells them this is your SECOND time to have a Eurodam cruise pulled out from under you. Surely that would call for something extra-special.

Are you getting the feeling you're snake bit on this one??? ;)

[Avril]

What do all you HAL experts think the chances of my cruise being cancelled for this reason are? I sail on the Eurodam's New Years sailing onn 12/27/2008? I've never been on HAL and I'm so excited!! :D

[hammybee]

I believe poster grampy holds the record for consecutive cancelled bookings due to charters, at three.:eek:

This board became aware of the 1/31 charter earlier this month. Poster rchwmn maintains a sticky at the top of this board that contains known charters and groups. Here is a link to it:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=563764

There is precedent for compensation to cover the cost of changing airline tickets, when you have proof of purchase, when you rebook another cruise.

As an aside, I would not buy airfare for any 7 day cruise leaving from a U.S. port further than 6-7 months before sail date because of the likelihood of a potential charter. Yet, truth be told, there is a substantially greater likelihood one's flight will be cancelled by the airline before one's cruise will be chartered.

I hope three is the charm for you, whenever and on whatever you choose to sail, next.

[hammybee]

What do all you HAL experts think the chances of my cruise being cancelled for this reason are? I sail on the Eurodam's New Years sailing onn 12/27/2008? I've never been on HAL and I'm so excited!! :D

The chances of a holiday cruise being chartered are somewhere between slim and none. I would not worry about it.

[twinkletoes4445]

What do all you HAL experts think the chances of my cruise being cancelled for this reason are? I sail on the Eurodam's New Years sailing onn 12/27/2008? I've never been on HAL and I'm so excited!! :D

IMO, you'll be fine. We've sailed on a New Year's sailing and they're expensive. I'd bet that no one will come along at this point and charter the ship because of the costs involved. Maybe the week before, or after, but not that week. This is only my opinion. :)

If I were to book a 7-day Caribbean cruise on HAL, I'd not book my air until the latest possible moment. Same goes with the hotel (unless there are no added cancellation fees). And if I absolutely couldn't be flexible with my 7-day vacation (move it a day or a week or more), I'd not book a 7-day Caribbean on HAL.

That said, I hope your week works out perfectly! HAL does have a wonderful product. :)

[caribbeanboy]

Looks like Nov.29 & Feb 28 is next in line to be cancelled.

[bepsf]

As an aside, I would not buy airfare for any 7 day cruise leaving from a U.S. port further than 6-7 months before sail date because of the likelihood of a potential charter. Yet, truth be told, there is a substantially greater likelihood one's flight will be cancelled by the airline before one's cruise will be chartered.

I agree with this - I never purchase airfare until right around the time that I'm making final payment.

[hammybee]

Looks like Nov.29 & Feb 28 is next in line to be cancelled.

This is the second time you have teased this board, with this. It comes off as " I know something, you don't know".

There are a lot of people sitting on pins and needles about the 11/29 sailing, based upon your tease. If 11/29 does charter, it will be, I think, the first time HAL has chartered a ship only 7 months before the sail date.

All previous heads-up have come from reliable and verifiable sources. If you have information , it would be a courtesy to at least tell more.

[twinkletoes4445]

Looks like Nov.29 & Feb 28 is next in line to be cancelled.

Hmmm...both are listed "below" as possible charters. Thanks for the heads up.

http://www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php

[richwmn]

They were listed about an hour ago based on CarribeanBoys note on this thread. I don't have any other verification, but wanted to put the information up "just in case"

Rich

[twinkletoes4445]

My travel agent called me today and told me that HAL has canceled the EURODAM sailing on January 31, 2009. I was also on the Eurodam sailing on October 18, 2008 and they canceled that one to. HAL also canceled another Eurodam sailing prior to January, 2009. All of the cancellations were due to the chartering the vessel out to groups/companies.

I just bought my airline tickets two days and of course they are non-refundable, $100. cancellation fee per ticket.

Does anyone know if HAL has offerred any kind of compensation for cancelling this sailing. Thanks for any help with this matter.

Catalina56

I'm sorry you were bumped...again. :(

I'd probably have my TA contact HAL and explain that this is your second go-around with this charter issue, and maybe HAL would cover the cost of the cancellation on your airline tickets (and maybe a some ship credits also).

Good luck!

[twinkletoes4445]

They were listed about an hour ago based on CarribeanBoys note on this thread. I don't have any other verification, but wanted to put the information up "just in case"

Rich

Good idea. :)

[Saphire]

I was also booked on the January 31st Eurodam. I found out myself before my TA even knew. We were switched to the following week (no additional cost even though it is $300 more for the same cabin) and HAL gave us $200 onboard credit. Pursue this with your TA, HAL may come through for you even with the airfare already booked. Good Luck!

[PathfinderEss]

What do all you HAL experts think the chances of my cruise being cancelled for this reason are? I sail on the Eurodam's New Years sailing onn 12/27/2008? I've never been on HAL and I'm so excited!! :D
I think you will be fine. I've personally never seen a Christmas or New Years cruise being bought out for a charter.

[Snook]

I agree with Hammybee. I think caribbeanboy should put up or shut up (hammybee didn't say it quite like that). I think this board should only allow posting of a charter if has been confirmed, not a rumor like cb is starting with no background or any other supporting evidence. I thnk some people, maybe new to this board, try to throw out little tid bits, true or not, just to get attention. On the other hand, if someone truly has proof that a sailing has been chartered, they should share that knowledge and their source with the rest of us! However, I guess we would really never be sure that a person was telling the truth regardless of how much proof they say they have.

[HappyCruiser44]

why is their rudeness here?

it does list these as possible charters on the group list. I'm new here so just trying to understand your anger towards CB - help???

[Two if by Sea]

it does list these as possible charters on the group list. I'm new here so just trying to understand your anger towards CB - help???

They are listed as possible charters BECAUSE of CB's posting. The question is, where does CB's information come from? Is he just surmising that those two dates are good ones for chartering the ship, or does he actually know something we don't?

The anger comes from people's growing apprehension about their cruise plans. If he KNOWS something, then we need to know so we can start changing our plans or at least being wary. If those dates were pulled randomly out of a hat, then Rich's list becomes less useful as a result.

(Rich, perhaps you want to mark those two as "unverified possible charter"?)

[Snook]

It's not really anger. It is just that cb is upsetting a lot of people by hinting that certain cruises might be chartered. I simply want to have more information on his sources. It is really not fair to the people who have taken great pains to plan for next great cruise or maybe even their first ever cruise. HAL would have trouble booking this cruise if the rumor persist that this week is chartered.

[richwmn]

They are listed as possible charters BECAUSE of CB's posting. The question is, where does CB's information come from? Is he just surmising that those two dates are good ones for chartering the ship, or does he actually know something we don't?

The anger comes from people's growing apprehension about their cruise plans. If he KNOWS something, then we need to know so we can start changing our plans or at least being wary. If those dates were pulled randomly out of a hat, then Rich's list becomes less useful as a result.

(Rich, perhaps you want to mark those two as "unverified possible charter"?)
Good idea -- done
Rich

[HappyCruiser44]

They are listed as possible charters BECAUSE of CB's posting. The question is, where does CB's information come from? Is he just surmising that those two dates are good ones for chartering the ship, or does he actually know something we don't?

The anger comes from people's growing apprehension about their cruise plans. If he KNOWS something, then we need to know so we can start changing our plans or at least being wary. If those dates were pulled randomly out of a hat, then Rich's list becomes less useful as a result.

(Rich, perhaps you want to mark those two as "unverified possible charter"?)

Thanks for clarification. Makes sense to me now.

[hammybee]

Anyone can post anything to a message board.

The 11/29 and 2/28 Eurodam continue to be sold to the public.

Post Thanksgiving cruises are notoriously challenging to fill without deep discounting. Chartering an entire ship, just 7 months before sail date seems risky and rather curious.

As an aside, the 3/1 sailing of the Westerdam is being advertized by Olivia, as a charter and is being sold to the public by HAL and travel agencies. The 3/1 Westerdam appears to be an option to charter which is how some charters begin. Some organizers advertize and others sell to their established list of past guests. Some of these charters sell out almost a year in advance. Organizers need X bookings to secure financing to commit.

Occasioanlly the options expire and the ship is not chartered. At that point, the organizer cancels its bookings.

If CB has sources and if CB's location is accurate, perhaps offshore organizations are involved. If either of these sailing become charters, CB will have some credibility. If not, well then.......

[kryos]

I just bought my airline tickets two days and of course they are non-refundable, $100. cancellation fee per ticket.

Does anyone know if HAL has offerred any kind of compensation for cancelling this sailing. Thanks for any help with this matter.

Get your travel agent on the case now. Maybe she can negotiate with HAL to get them to pick up that $100 cancellation fee for each ticket.

Problem is that when a cruise is so far out (January 2009 from April 2008), the cruise line is not going to give much in the way of compensation for a missed cruise. Their feeling is that you have plenty of time to make other arrangements so you will be lucky if they give you a "token" OBC to compensate you for your trouble.

This is why I would never book my air so far in advance, but rather would wait until a sailing is about three months out before doing so. I haven't even booked air yet for my cruises this September and probably won't for at least another month or so yet.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

As an aside, the 3/1 sailing of the Westerdam is being advertized by Olivia, as a charter and is being sold to the public by HAL and travel agencies. The 3/1 Westerdam appears to be an option to charter which is how some charters begin.
Exactly, and that's honestly not fair ... but the way things work in the industry. A large organization will take an "option" on the charter, and they have until a certain date to make a final decision on whether to proceed or not. They will sell the cruise as their own charter, and can do so because they have a commitment from the cruise line for the charter. In the meantime, though, to protect themselves, the cruise line will also sell the cruise to their regular customers as well. If the charter company books enough cabins to go ahead with the full ship charter, then the cruise line will dump all of the customers they sold and start sending out deposit refunds.

The thing I don't like about this scenaro, though, is what happens if Olivia sells a lot of cabins, but cannot fill the ship and thus charter it? The cabins sold will probably still sail, and with full Olivia programming. Now where does that leave the other people HAL sold the cruise to? They are stuck sailing with a large group that will effectively take over the ship. Everything onboard that week will be geared toward the Olivia people ... since they will probably be the majority of the passengers onboard the ship. They will have their own entertainment, activities, private parties, etc., and the other passengers will be simply the "add ons." Not fair in my humble opinion, especially since that probably means that the rest of those passengers, who probably paid a higher price for their cruise than the Olivia group, will clearly be the second class passengers on this sailing. They will find themselves locked out of certain venues on certain days because perhaps Olivia is using the outside deck or a particular lounge for one of their private functions. They may find themselves having to wait for tendering over to HAL's private island because the Olivia people need to get over there first for some special events they may be having.

I know this sort of thing would torque me, and I've read accounts of passengers on these types of sailings with large groups who were very upset about their treatment.

Personally, I don't think "options" on charters should be allowed. The large group who wants a full ship sailing, and wants to sell their trip as such, should have to take the plunge and charter the ship from the get go. Then HAL stops selling the cruise to its own customers. If they don't want a full ship charter, then there should definitely be some limits on what the group can do onboard, and no event they propose to have should be permitted to infringe on the rights of other non-group passengers onboard that week.

This seems the only fair way to do things ... though, sadly, it's not the way large groups are usually handled.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[bepsf]

As an aside, the 3/1 sailing of the Westerdam is being advertized by Olivia, as a charter and is being sold to the public by HAL and travel agencies. The 3/1 Westerdam appears to be an option to charter which is how some charters begin.


Olivia does this every Dam year - They take an option and sell the cruise to their clients (and take deposits) before ponying up the funds for the charter, and HAL then has to dump folks from those cruises.

IMHO, HAL should put an end to this nonsense and tell Olivia that they can charter or not - but to quit this nonsense which puts HAL at a disadvantage w/ their other clients.

At least when RSVP was still chartering HAL ships in recent years, they would book the charter so far in advance that the sailing never showed up as available to the general public and HAL's regular clients would not not be inconvenienced.

[cruznon]

The number of charters of HAL ships seem to be growing. As one of those bumped off the Eurodam (10/18) I must admit I'm taking more notice of this practice.
Since we haven't sailed anything but HAL recently, I haven't visited other boards. Are other lines being chartered as much as HAL? I'd like to book Eurodam next year, but am a bit leary considering the huge number of charters. Perhaps the best practice would be to not plan far in advance--but then cabin selection can be limited.

[Boytjie]

The cabins sold will probably still sail, and with full Olivia programming. Now where does that leave the other people HAL sold the cruise to? They are stuck sailing with a large group that will effectively take over the ship. Everything onboard that week will be geared toward the Olivia people ... since they will probably be the majority of the passengers onboard the ship. They will have their own entertainment, activities, private parties, etc., and the other passengers will be simply the "add ons." Not fair in my humble opinion, especially since that probably means that the rest of those passengers, who probably paid a higher price for their cruise than the Olivia group, will clearly be the second class passengers on this sailing. They will find themselves locked out of certain venues on certain days because perhaps Olivia is using the outside deck or a particular lounge for one of their private functions. They may find themselves having to wait for tendering over to HAL's private island because the Olivia people need to get over there first for some special events they may be having.


Charters and groups are different things. If Olivia charters the ship the pay for the FULL ship whether they sell it all or not. Those that were previously booked will NOT be on the charter, if they want to cruise on the charter that have to book through the charter.

[Boytjie]

Olivia does this every Dam year - They take an option and sell the cruise to their clients (and take deposits) before ponying up the funds for the charter, and HAL then has to dump folks from those cruises.

IMHO, HAL should put an end to this nonsense and tell Olivia that they can charter or not - but to quit this nonsense which puts HAL at a disadvantage w/ their other clients.

At least when RSVP was still chartering HAL ships in recent years, they would book the charter so far in advance that the sailing never showed up as available to the general public and HAL's regular clients would not not be inconvenienced.



I don't know how correct you are in your claims. RSVP was selling the 2/21/09 Eurodam as a charter while HAL was still selling it too. Only HAL knows for sure what the arrangements are. BTW RSVP has been a steady charter customer with HAL.

[Northshorecruisers]

We had booked the 10/4/08 Oosterdam cruise which Olivia chartered. It was to celebrate our 5th wedding anniversary. Worst part was that we had also booked the repositioning cruise from Vancouver-San Diego with our cruising friends that live in Vancouver. They were locked into that week.
Then we decided we'd try the Eurodam on 10/18/08 - even booked the 3 day cruise prior; since we have some free airline tickets to Florida, seemed like a good deal. Ship got chartered.
Didn't know if I should book the Oosterdam 10/18/08 or not - thought I was probably a bad luck symbol....but, we're less than 6 months to sailing so I think we're OK.
If the Eurodam is chartered for 2/21/09 - what are the chances that it would also be chartered for the 2/28/09 sailing? That's the week of my son's spring break at school and the only time we'd be able to sail without taking him out of school.

[bepsf]

I don't know how correct you are in your claims. RSVP was selling the 2/21/09 Eurodam as a charter while HAL was still selling it too. Only HAL knows for sure what the arrangements are. BTW RSVP has been a steady charter customer with HAL.

I was unaware of that - It's not listed on the RSVP site...
...but previous years RSVP cruises have not had this issue.

[hammybee]

The thing I don't like about this scenaro, though, is what happens if Olivia sells a lot of cabins, but cannot fill the ship and thus charter it? The cabins sold will probably still sail, and with full Olivia programming. Now where does that leave the other people HAL sold the cruise to? They are stuck sailing with a large group that will effectively take over the ship.

Everything onboard that week will be geared toward the Olivia people ... since they will probably be the majority of the passengers onboard the ship. They will have their own entertainment, activities, private parties, etc., and the other passengers will be simply the "add ons."

Not fair in my humble opinion, especially since that probably means that the rest of those passengers, who probably paid a higher price for their cruise than the Olivia group, will clearly be the second class passengers on this sailing. They will find themselves locked out of certain venues on certain days because perhaps Olivia is using the outside deck or a particular lounge for one of their private functions. They may find themselves having to wait for tendering over to HAL's private island because the Olivia people need to get over there first for some special events they may be having.

Blue skies ...--rita

Rita, I think you have this backwards.

Olivia only does full ship charters. It's all or nothing. Chartering carries enormous risks because the burden of filling the ship transfers from the cruise line to the charter organizer.

Groups sometimes turn into charters. Charters don't turn into groups. Charters are sold as full ship charters and previous clients know what to expect and that's not the usual cruise experience.

Charter passengers pay a premium to cruise because they are getting more, a theme and premium entertainment. A charter organizer brings on their own employees and entertainment snd they run the show. Intineraries and schedules are customized to the specifications of the charter organizer.

Groups are on every cruise, every cruise line. Most of the time, non group passengers are not aware of them. There have been exceptions on every cruise line and when it happens the CC boards explode with it.

[hammybee]

I was unaware of that - It's not listed on the RSVP site...
...but previous years RSVP cruises have not had this issue.


It's still not on the RSVP site nor is it on Planetout.com They have however, been promoting it to their client and email list. HAL and travel agencies recently ceased selling cabins to the public, suggesting that RSVP reached some magic number and was able to obtain financing.

[Boytjie]

It's still not on the RSVP site nor is it on Planetout.com They have however, been promoting it to their client and email list. HAL and travel agencies recently ceased selling cabins to the public, suggesting that RSVP reached some magic number and was able to obtain financing.

PlanetOut no longer owns RSVP, it was aquited by Atlantis.

If there is a magic number, I am not sure what it could be. In the week that it was on sale during the Zuiderdam charter, 40% of it was booked. That was only amongst the people on the Zuiderdam. I am sure that would be considered a big GO for the charter.

I have no idea why RSVP does not yet have its 2009 charters on its website. I notice that Atlantis does not have its 2009 cruises on its website either.

[hammybee]

Since we haven't sailed anything but HAL recently, I haven't visited other boards. Are other lines being chartered as much as HAL?


While HAL appears to be the favored cruise line in terms of charters, they certainly are not alone. I posted these non HAL charters a few weeks ago:

2008- Charters
5/11 Star Clipper- Bare Necessities
5/26 Regent- Jazz Party
6/27 Regent - Travel Pride
7/5 RCL Navigator- Atlantis
7/5 Uniworld River – Travel Pride
7/12 Celebrity Consellation- Atlantis
7/27 Viking River- Olivia
8/3 Viking River- Olivia
7/30 NCL Dawn- R Vacations
8/27 Star Clipper- Bare Necessities
8/30 Celebrity Constellation- Atlantis
9/6 Star Clipper- Bare Necessities
10/9 Carnival Imagination- Ebony Pyramid
10/18 RCL Serendade-Atlantis
11/15 Lindbland- Olivia
11/15 NCL Dawn-Jazz Party
11/27 Star Clipper – RSVP
11/27 RCL Granduer- Capital Jazz


2009 Charters
1/18 Windstar – Olivia
1/31 Celebrity Century- Smooth Jazz
2/8 Carnival Legend - Bare Necessities
3/18 Regent- Olivia
3/19 Celebrity- Bare Necessities
4/18 NCL Star - RSVP
4/12 Avalon- Olivia
5/1 Celebrity Xpedition- Romance Vacations
6/13 Star Clipper- Bare Necessity

2010 Charters
3/19 Celebrity Constellation- Bare Necessities

Pied Piper and Oceon Voyager are in the business of selling hosted and unhosted group space on a variety of cruises and limit themselves to designated Celebrity, Cunard, RCL and occasionally Princess sails. When hosted, they plan special events for their clients. There are no fewer than 50 such group cruises in the works. No way of telling the size of the groups, which can range from a handful to hundreds.

Card Player Cruises uses HAL for group sails and has 5 such sails planned.

WPT Cruises ( Poker) uses NCL and has 5 such group sails in the works.

Audrey Grant Bridge Groups favor Crystal and occasionally HAL.
Bernie Chazen Bridge Groups favor Celebrity, RCL and occasionally HAL.
Roberta Salab Bridge Group favors Crystal.

Information about HAL charters and groups can be found in the sticky maintained by poster Rchwmn:

http://www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php

[hammybee]

[quote=Boytjie;14347017]PlanetOut no longer owns RSVP, it was aquited by Atlantis.

/quote]

PlanetOut does a decent job of compiling charter cruises for many organizers. I have no idea why only some Atlantis/ RSVP 2009 cruises are showing on this site. Maybe the webmaster is on a cruise. ;)

The February 2009 RSVP charter is no longer being sold to the public.

[Boytjie]

PlanetOut does a decent job of compiling charter cruises for many organizers. I have no idea why only some Atlantis/ RSVP 2009 cruises are showing on this site. Maybe the webmaster is on a cruise. ;)

PlanetOut is no longer in the travel business.... it is back to being a media company. They owned RSVP for a while.

[CinWin]

If I had known that HAL is notorious for booking so many charters and cancelling ordinary booked passengers, I never would have reserved my 1/03/09 Eurodam cruise so far in advance. I was choosing between two ships for that time frame - Celebrity's Solstice and the Eurodam. I finally picked the Eurodam because I have never cruised on a HAL ship and heard they are so wonderful. I've really been looking forward to the Eurodam experience so hope it will be a reality.
Cindy

[RevNeal]

If I had known that HAL is notorious for booking so many charters and cancelling ordinary booked passengers, I never would have reserved my 1/03/09 Eurodam cruise so far in advance. I was choosing between two ships for that time frame - Celebrity's Solstice and the Eurodam. I finally picked the Eurodam because I have never cruised on a HAL ship and heard they are so wonderful. I've really been looking forward to the Eurodam experience so hope it will be a reality.

Cindy, I wouldn't be too concerned about a January 3rd sailing. That's a little-too close to New Years for it to be chartered out. I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, just that it's not as likely as it might be later. Also, as has already been noted, other Lines do this too ... so, it could happen on Celebrity, too.

Has anybody ever done a count to see what percentage of HAL sailings are actually chartered in any given year? That would be an interesting figure to see.

[hammybee]

I previously estimated this at about 3% of all 7 day sails, based upon historical and future charters.

BTW, this is the first Alaskan season, in a while, that there does not appear to be any charters.

[RevNeal]

I previously estimated this at about 3% of all 7 day sails, based upon historical and future charters.

BTW, this is the first Alaskan season, in a while, that there does not appear to be any charters.

3%?
One would think, based upon some of what is posted here, that we're talking about 25% or some-such similar figure. However, it doesn't surprise me that such a tiny figure generates so much consternation ... and, of course, it doesn't help that a few people have been bitten more than once by it. I wonder what the odds are of that happening too often.

Take heart ... 97% of the sailings aren't chartered. :D

[hammybee]

3%?
One would think, based upon some of what is posted here, that we're talking about 25% or some-such similar figure. However, it doesn't surprise me that such a tiny figure generates so much consternation ... and, of course, it doesn't help that a few people have been bitten more than once by it. I wonder what the odds are of that happening too often.

Take heart ... 97% of the sailings aren't chartered. :D

Poster "Grampy" holds the record , I think. He had 3 booking in a row cancelled due to charters on the Oosterdam. I am not certain, but I think he figured he could not beat them so he may have joined them.

(hammybee tends to remember interesting and useless information)

[twinkletoes4445]

If you look at HAL's website, there are 13 weeks (in Jan/Feb/March 2009) and of those, on the Westerdam, only 6 are available to book. That means 7 of the 13 are charters.(?)

The Eurodam looks better. Of the 13 weeks, only 3 are not available, but I'd bet that many of those later weeks end up being charters.

It looks like the Westerdam, in particular, is going to be chartered out a lot in the Caribbean. The Zuiderdam used to be in this chartered out group. When we were trying to pick a week, we found that there were charters all around our date and just by dumb luck, we ended up on a week that wasn't a charter.

It's makes it tough to plan a vacation for some, at least on a 7-day Caribbean cruise on HAL. However, at least we know it's a possibility. I knew nothing about cruise charters until I read about them here.

[hammybee]

It does not look that bad ( or good, depending upon perspective), yet.

For some reason, the HAL site is showing many of the Westerdam sails as 14 days, while the online travel agencies are showing them as two 7 days and 14 day sails. It will probably show something different tomorrow. :rolleyes:

You are right about the consentration, primarily to the Westerdam and Eurodam. The Zuiderdam sailings look reasonably intact for the season.

[Captain Canuck]

we booked air for January..had to as we use airmiles and got the last 2 seats as it is

[twinkletoes4445]

It does not look that bad ( or good, depending upon perspective), yet.

For some reason, the HAL site is showing many of the Westerdam sails as 14 days, while the online travel agencies are showing them as two 7 days and 14 day sails. It will probably show something different tomorrow. :rolleyes:

You are right about the consentration, primarily to the Westerdam and Eurodam. The Zuiderdam sailings look reasonably intact for the season.

I hadn't thought of the 14-day sails. That may be why some aren't showing up. I only checked the under 8 days sails.

I think with rising fuel costs and an uncertain economy, we're going to see more charters. As much as I hate it, I'd hate it even worse if the industry folded. These are tough times, and a business has to do what it has to do to stay afloat.

[kryos]

At least when RSVP was still chartering HAL ships in recent years, they would book the charter so far in advance that the sailing never showed up as available to the general public and HAL's regular clients would not not be inconvenienced.

And that's exactly the way it should be. This way folks don't get disappointed. They know from the get-go that the ship is chartered for that week and the only way they're getting on is if they book through the charter company.

I really can't believe that some consumer protection agency has not gotten on the cruise lines long ago about this. To sell someone a cruise, but to also sell that cruise to a chartering company who has very definite ideas about what they plan on doing with it, is very unfair. Either way, the non-charter company customer is screwed. Either their cruise gets cancelled because the chartering company gets enough bookings and goes ahead with the charter, or they get to go on their cruise, but only as a second class passenger taking a backseat to the chartering company's customers.

No fair, in my opinion. Whether I book a cruise on my own, or sign on through Olivia, my money is just as good as everyone else's and I have the right to expect a great cruise experience as well.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

The number of charters of HAL ships seem to be growing. As one of those bumped off the Eurodam (10/18) I must admit I'm taking more notice of this practice.
Since we haven't sailed anything but HAL recently, I haven't visited other boards. Are other lines being chartered as much as HAL?
I would imagine HAL sees more of this sort of thing because of the size of their ships. Let's face it, it's a heck of a lot easier to sell out a 1,200 passenger vessel for a charter than it is a 3,000 passenger ship. Since HAL has a lot of smaller ships, I think you probably see more charters on HAL ships than others. But, then again ... that wouldn't explain the Eurodam being chartered. That's a big ship ... and other lines have ships at about the same size.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

Charters and groups are different things. If Olivia charters the ship the pay for the FULL ship whether they sell it all or not. Those that were previously booked will NOT be on the charter, if they want to cruise on the charter that have to book through the charter.
Right ... I understand that. But many chartering companies won't take the plunge until they have a reasonable expectation of selling the ship, so they take an OPTION to charter. That really sucks because if they don't charter, they still usually wind up with a pretty big group on the sailing, and thus the influence to turn a publicly-sold sailing into a customized one for their group. And that, my friend, is grossly unfair.

Nothing against Olivia, RSVP, Christian organizations, Spring Break crowds ... whatever ... but if I wanted a cruise where the whole onboard ambience revolved around the theme, I WOULD have booked with the charter company on a sailing solely and exclusively dedicated to that. But if I book a public sailing, then I have a right to expect the normal ammenities I would come to expect on any HAL sailing.

When large groups take over the ship, but the sailing remains open to the general public too, that's when there are problems ... and as far as I'm concerned, there should be very definite limits on what a large group can do on a publicly-sold sailing. After all, the non-group passengers onboard that week have rights too ... and the cruise line should keep those rights in mind.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

Groups sometimes turn into charters. Charters don't turn into groups. Charters are sold as full ship charters and previous clients know what to expect and that's not the usual cruise experience.

IF the chartering company takes an OPTION on the charter (and, of course, this assumes the cruise line will give it to them), then yes ... charters can turn into groups. This simply happens when the chartering company cannot sell out the ship and instead sails on the cruise, but only as a large group ... not as a full ship charter. In this case, the cruise line will give the chartering company a deadline with their option ... they must make a decision by a certain date as to whether they will take over the entire ship or not. In the meantime, both the chartering company and the cruise line can sell the sailing independently to their own customers. It is legal for the chartering company to do so because they have a commitment from the cruise line ... otherwise, they could not sell a cruise they did not have ... it would be fraud.

So, while it is probably rare, especially for groups like Olivia and RSVP, charters can turn into groups ... and it happens when the potential chartering company simply can't sell enough cabins to fill the ship and thus make a full ship charter financially feasible.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[twinkletoes4445]

After all, the non-group passengers onboard that week have rights too ... and the cruise line should keep those rights in mind.

The cruise lines aren't going to do a thing until they a forced to deal with this issue. Right now, they have it both ways, but anyone who's been reading here knows that these bump & dump charters are here to stay. So when they see their individual bookings drop, they'll have to deal with this, or run the risk of losing that segment of their cruisers. Maybe they don't care. Maybe charters are the way to go. Maybe that's the direction HAL's 7-day Caribbean cruises are headed and there's nothing that can be done. However, I'd think long and hard before I'd book a 7-day Caribbean cruise on HAL at this point in time.

And you're right...it sucks.

I understand why they are doing this...but there ought to be a way to make both these sailings work. Have a date where charters have to reserve a ship and then after that date, it goes open to the general public. It doesn't seem to work that way now. When the charter companies come calling, HAL probably offers up their sailings that aren't fully booked. Many people are flexible and can make the change, but some aren't.

[kryos]

If I had known that HAL is notorious for booking so many charters and cancelling ordinary booked passengers, I never would have reserved my 1/03/09 Eurodam cruise so far in advance. I was choosing between two ships for that time frame - Celebrity's Solstice and the Eurodam. I finally picked the Eurodam because I have never cruised on a HAL ship and heard they are so wonderful. I've really been looking forward to the Eurodam experience so hope it will be a reality.
Cindy
I always say, if you want to maximize your chance of sailing, book something at the VERY LEAST ten days or more in length. Two weeks would even be better. Those sailings very rarely get chartered because chartering companies will generally steer clear of them. They are very, very hard to sell. First of all, two weeks is too long a time for a lot of people to get away (assuming the chartering company would be marketing to working class/age people), and the price on a two week or longer sailing would be much higher and would thus knock a lot of potential customers for the chartering company out of the running.

It's the seven-day or shorter cruises that are prime targets for chartering. In fact, I would imagine in actuality that HAL probably sees no more charters than other lines do because those other lines run a lot of three and four-dayers, whereas HAL does not. I would imagine those "shorty" cruises are the ones that really get chartered left and right. The chartering company can keep the cost down and thus have a very good chance of selling out all of the cabins, and most people, regardless of their station in life (working folks, families, etc.) can afford a short three-day cruise.

But for us HAL lovers, I say stay away from the seven-day or shorter cruises and you should be reasonably safe from the chartering companies.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[hammybee]

This simply happens when the chartering company cannot sell out the ship and instead sails on the cruise, but only as a large group ... not as a full ship charter.

So, while it is probably rare, especially for groups like Olivia and RSVP, charters can turn into groups ... and it happens when the potential chartering company simply can't sell enough cabins to fill the ship and thus make a full ship charter financially feasible.

Blue skies ...--rita

I am aware of groups that turned into charters but not charters turning into groups. This is not saying it's never happened - rather I have not heard of it on any of these CC boards.

People who book into the charters do so to meet like-minded people and for the big name entertainment not remotely possible on a routine cruise.

[hammybee]

I would imagine those "shorty" cruises are the ones that really get chartered left and right. The chartering company can keep the cost down and thus have a very good chance of selling out all of the cabins, and most people, regardless of their station in life (working folks, families, etc.) can afford a short three-day cruise.

Blue skies ...--rita

Actually, the cruise lines with short cruises have no problems filling the ships with people looking for a drive to party cruise.

To fill a ship with 2000 passengers, it needs to be marketed in the U.S. , Canada and Europe. I don't think traditional families and the so-called " working stiffs" are the primary target audiance for a jazz or blues or a clothing optional charter.

[hammybee]

I really can't believe that some consumer protection agency has not gotten on the cruise lines long ago about this. To sell someone a cruise, but to also sell that cruise to a chartering company who has very definite ideas about what they plan on doing with it, is very unfair.
Blue skies ...--rita

My best guess is that about 3% of all HAL 7 days sails become chartered sails. Most charters happen ten or more months into the future, an eternity as it relates to bookings for a 7 day cruise.

No way to tell how many passengers are impacted when a sailing becomes chartered ten or more months into the future. Given that 7 day sails rarely sell out before final payment date, I suspect we are not taking about a huge number of bookings, here.

The cruise contract makes it clear that the cruise line can cancel a cruise at any time, for any reason.

The cruise contract also makes it clear the consumer may cancel at any time, for any reason, up to and including final payment date. And when consumers do this, the cruise line may incur a lost opportunity cost. That cabin could have been sold to someone else at a potentially higher fare, had not the consumer tied up the inventory, sometimes with as little as $100 deposit.

It appears that about 3% of all HAL 7 days sails become chartered cruises. Shall we guess what percentage of consumer bookings get cancelled on or before final payment date?

How many times does the average cabin get sold and resold to fickle consumers, before it is finally occupied?

If down the road, gas hits $5 a gallon, as some predict, want to venture a guess how many bookings will be cancelled by consumers?

[Boytjie]

Right ... I understand that. But many chartering companies won't take the plunge until they have a reasonable expectation of selling the ship, so they take an OPTION to charter. That really sucks because if they don't charter, they still usually wind up with a pretty big group on the sailing, and thus the influence to turn a publicly-sold sailing into a customized one for their group. And that, my friend, is grossly unfair.

Nothing against Olivia, RSVP, Christian organizations, Spring Break crowds ... whatever ... but if I wanted a cruise where the whole onboard ambience revolved around the theme, I WOULD have booked with the charter company on a sailing solely and exclusively dedicated to that. But if I book a public sailing, then I have a right to expect the normal ammenities I would come to expect on any HAL sailing.

When large groups take over the ship, but the sailing remains open to the general public too, that's when there are problems ... and as far as I'm concerned, there should be very definite limits on what a large group can do on a publicly-sold sailing. After all, the non-group passengers onboard that week have rights too ... and the cruise line should keep those rights in mind.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Well, I don't know if charters-gone-flat become group cruises.

Your beef seems to be mainly with groups. No-one accidentally ends up on a charter, you have to book through the charter, not HAL

[Boytjie]

So, while it is probably rare, especially for groups like Olivia and RSVP, charters can turn into groups ... and it happens when the potential chartering company simply can't sell enough cabins to fill the ship and thus make a full ship charter financially feasible.

I have never heard of an Olivia, Atlantis, RSVP or R Family group cruise. They do charters.

[Northshorecruisers]

When our cruise was chartered by Olivia, we could have continued to take the cruise but needed to book through Olivia at their prices.
It was a Women in Sports cruise and Billie Jean King was going to be on board and rumor was that Melissa Etheridge would be one of the entertainers. I think it would have been a great cruise but the prices were way out of my price range.

[RevNeal]

I would imagine HAL sees more of this sort of thing because of the size of their ships. Let's face it, it's a heck of a lot easier to sell out a 1,200 passenger vessel for a charter than it is a 3,000 passenger ship. Since HAL has a lot of smaller ships, I think you probably see more charters on HAL ships than others. But, then again ... that wouldn't explain the Eurodam being chartered. That's a big ship ... and other lines have ships at about the same size.

Precisely correct. It's the Vistas (and now the Signature) that are being chartered more than any other ship of the Line. :) So ... Maybe the passenger-point of about 2000 is a good zone to shoot for in a Charter? Could be.

I've recently heard that the Noordam costs $2.8 million to charter for 7-days. YIKES! At 2000 passengers that's an average of $1400 per passenger. :)

[hammybee]

I've recently heard that the Noordam costs $2.8 million to charter for 7-days. YIKES! At 2000 passengers that's an average of $1400 per passenger. :)

I wonder how alcohol revenue is handled. By this I mean, is there a split with the organizer, or not. I guess anything is negotiable.

The crew that I have spoken with about charters generally love them because it breaks the monotony of 7 day sails, the entertainment is great, passengers board for the total experience and tend to spend. I inferred this to mean tips were better. This makes sense given the passenger base is probably more likely to be well travelled and ready for a good time, regardless of venue.

[jhannah]

I wonder how alcohol revenue is handled. I would guess the figure revneal noted would be greater if the charter specified that the bars and/or casino be closed during the sailing. Some groups do that.

[hammybee]

I would guess the figure revneal noted would be greater if the charter specified that the bars and/or casino be closed during the sailing. Some groups do that.

Most charters however, probably keep the bars open and staffed 24/7, because some of the parties never end and then it's another day and Mimosas for B-fast.

[jhannah]

Oh, no doubt. But some religious-oriented charters do have these venues closed.

[sail7seas]

Do you think such groups are paying a higher fare per person to accomodate the lack of liquor sales? ;)

[hammybee]

Premier Productions is, I think, one of the larger promoters of Christian cruises. They use Carnival. Most of their sails are large groups, although they appear to have chartered the Destiny for January, 2009. That's about 3500 passengers.

[Oslo Dutch]

Most charters however, probably keep the bars open and staffed 24/7, because some of the parties never end and then it's another day and Mimosas for B-fast.

Well, on the Eurodam RSVP gay charter it will be lot livelier than usual.
When I was on the Zuiderdam initially bars had big trouble coping with drink orders. Later during the they seem to get the hang of it. Late night parties were on the aft deck and extra bars were set up.

However RSVP is a little more quiet than Atlantis where they do go on til way after dawn

This is probably on of the main reasons they charter out the ship. First of all they can charge premium fares and the bar on board revenue is huge.

And it's real good fun too :D (if you are into it)

[jhannah]

Do you think such groups are paying a higher fare per person to accomodate the lack of liquor sales? ;) Yes, I do. That is revenue built into the ship's operational margin. If a group asks that to be taken away, I would think the ship would have to make up the difference in the overall price of the charter.

[Boytjie]

Precisely correct. It's the Vistas (and now the Signature) that are being chartered more than any other ship of the Line. :) So ... Maybe the passenger-point of about 2000 is a good zone to shoot for in a Charter? Could be.

I've recently heard that the Noordam costs $2.8 million to charter for 7-days. YIKES! At 2000 passengers that's an average of $1400 per passenger. :)

The RSVP charter to Alaska was on the Amsterdam last September.

[Boytjie]

Most charters however, probably keep the bars open and staffed 24/7, because some of the parties never end and then it's another day and Mimosas for B-fast.

The bars aren't open 24/7 on RSVP charters and from what I have heard from staff, RSVP charters would be good cnadidates! as one waiter told me on the Caribbean Princess when asked how he was experiencing the cruise: I have never worked this hard in my life... you guys can drink! But we are making a lot of money".

That said, RSVP cruises are not one big drunken stupor. :)

[azkcruizers]

I had booked five cabins on the January 31 sailing of the Eurodam when I noticed Sapphire talking about the date disappearing. I was offered another sailing date at the same price, which ended up being $1000 more. Each cabin vf was also given $200 on board credit. We have booked Feb. 7. The only problem was we purposely booked early to get our five balconies in a row and I was told they weren't available on the 7th together. I did some research and found 6 VD cabins in a row but they told my TA they weren't, but when I got upset and called she told me they were being held for emergency purposes. After some discussion a supervisor said I could take them. It then took four TA phone calls to HAL to send her the faxes she needed. So my party of 15 is hoping that the 7th doesn't end up chartered too. I have cruised before but never with HAL.

[azkcruizers]

I'm sorry I just stuck my post in the middle of your conversation. I've been reading for almost a year but never have posted before. When I tried to previously it wouldn't work for me so I just rejoined with a new name. I was paying more attention to the title of the thread instead of the last posts.

[hammybee]

The bars aren't open 24/7 on RSVP charters and from what I have heard from staff, RSVP charters would be good cnadidates! as one waiter told me on the Caribbean Princess when asked how he was experiencing the cruise: I have never worked this hard in my life... you guys can drink! But we are making a lot of money".

That said, RSVP cruises are not one big drunken stupor. :)

Never suggested they were. I was referring to the other one. ;)

[hammybee]

dupe

[NoNoNanette]

dupe

And just who was THAT directed to? Who you callin' a "dupe"? ;)

[Sailor Gal]

I feel sorry for the poster who has been the object of cancelled cruises twice. I would be done with HAL! We booked HAL for the first time and then read various postings about cancellations. Don't shoot me - it's only my opinion....but this has never been such an issue with other cruise lines. We'll hopefully enjoy our Nov. 1 cruise on HAL but probably won't risk booking again due to the cancellations. We are working folks with only a certain week allotted for vacation. HAL is probably not the best choice for us as we are not retired and can't just adjust to another cruise on a whim. I think this is a terrible practice.:(

[Boytjie]

And just who was THAT directed to? Who you callin' a "dupe"? ;)

Who else? :D

[RevNeal]

I would guess the figure revneal noted would be greater if the charter specified that the bars and/or casino be closed during the sailing. Some groups do that.

The figure I gave was not inclusive of other conditions, like a closed bar or casino. Those conditions would cause the price of the charter to go up.

[RevNeal]

Oh, no doubt. But some religious-oriented charters do have these venues closed.

That is correct. I've had interesting conversations with staff members regarding those cruises where the casino and the bars are closed. The prices charged for those cruises are quite a bit more expensive, per-person, than a charter cruise where those to revenue venues remain open.

Not all Christian Charters will close the bars, however. :) I was told a story, once, by a F&B manager about a Lutheran charter in which they ran out of beer! :d

[RevNeal]

Do you think such groups are paying a higher fare per person to accomodate the lack of liquor sales? ;)

Absolutely ... on the order of an additional $250 pp, based upon the last figures I saw.

[bepsf]

I was told a story, once, by a F&B manager about a Lutheran charter in which they ran out of beer! :d

I should be a Lutheran...

(Oh Wait - I AM a Lutheran!)
:D

[sail7seas]

Rev,

I'd have thought even higher per person. Presumably, a number of guests on an average cruise would spend more than $250 on drinks and casino. Certainly not all guests will but I think there might be a decent percentage?? Then again, there are a number who drink less. I suppose it does balance out.

[Jade13]

And just who was THAT directed to? Who you callin' a "dupe"? ;)

"duplicate post"


I usually write "Double Post" when the boards act up and double post my post (they don't allow you to completely delete the post).

[NoNoNanette]

"duplicate post"


I usually write "Double Post" when the boards act up and double post my post (they don't allow you to completely delete the post).

Hi Jade-

I was playing with Hammybee. :)

[newmexicoNita]

My travel agent called me today and told me that HAL has canceled the EURODAM sailing on January 31, 2009. I was also on the Eurodam sailing on October 18, 2008 and they canceled that one to. HAL also canceled another Eurodam sailing prior to January, 2009. All of the cancellations were due to the chartering the vessel out to groups/companies.

I just bought my airline tickets two days and of course they are non-refundable, $100. cancellation fee per ticket.

Does anyone know if HAL has offerred any kind of compensation for cancelling this sailing. Thanks for any help with this matter.

Catalina56
As for the cancellations, we all know all lines do this, but it seems HAL is the worst, followed by Princess. I don't know why. Now, your airline tickets, I don't blame you for being upset, but that too happens often. I would look for another sailing that will fit in with your dates. Compensation, I don't know of any and because it is more than 6 months out, my guess is there will be none or not much. I hope I am wrong about this.

Nita

[hammybee]

Hi Jade-

I was playing with Hammybee. :)

And hammybee knew it:eek:

[hammybee]

As for the cancellations, we all know all lines do this, but it seems HAL is the worst, followed by Princess. I don't know why. Now, your airline tickets, I don't blame you for being upset, but that too happens often. I would look for another sailing that will fit in with your dates. Compensation, I don't know of any and because it is more than 6 months out, my guess is there will be none or not much. I hope I am wrong about this.

Nita

I think Celebrity is #2 as it relates to charters, following HAL.

There are so many very recent posts on this board where passengers have been made whole and then some for their inconvenience. If you can prove that you purchased airline tickets, there is tremendous precedent that HAL will indeed pick up the cost of airline penalties, when you rebook another cruise. Most folk also seem to be getting a little OBC too. HAL has come a long way on this topic in the past year.

[Boytjie]

I was told a story, once, by a F&B manager about a Lutheran charter in which they ran out of beer! :d

Are you sure it wasn't an Episcopalian charter? :D Or did that one run out of wine and scotch?

[Boytjie]

Rev,

I'd have thought even higher per person. Presumably, a number of guests on an average cruise would spend more than $250 on drinks and casino. Certainly not all guests will but I think there might be a decent percentage?? Then again, there are a number who drink less. I suppose it does balance out.

Also, there is no booze being poured so less cost involved, pure profit.

[Aruba]

Sometimes it's not possible to wait until final payment date before booking airfare. We have to travel during school vacation weeks. If we're flying to a warm weather port (say Miami or Fort Laud) in February, we try to book our air 11 months in advance to have any hope of getting a decent price or decent flight times. If we waited until final payment date and are traveling during school vacations, our options are extemely limited...and expensive.

We got burned last year when our Feb cruise on the Westerdam was chartered and cancelled after we had bought the air tickets. Fortunately we were able to sail on the Zuiderdam leaving 1 day earlier, but we did have to change the flights. HAL didn't pay for the air changes but offered us a $200 onboard credit, which satisfied us.

[RevNeal]

I'd have thought even higher per person. Presumably, a number of guests on an average cruise would spend more than $250 on drinks and casino. Certainly not all guests will but I think there might be a decent percentage?? Then again, there are a number who drink less. I suppose it does balance out.

I would have thought so, too, but that was the figure I was quoted. Perhaps they figure they make up a sufficient amount in the sale of soft-drinks as an alternative? Could be, because the F&B manager did mention that they over-stocked their soft-drink stores before one of those cruises and they ended up selling out before the end. Also, they did have wine available for purchase during dinner.

[RevNeal]

Are you sure it wasn't an Episcopalian charter? :D Or did that one run out of wine and scotch?

An Episcopalian charter would have been wine, scotch, gin, and soda. :D
As we used to joke, back when I was an Episcopalian: wherever you have two or three Episcopalians gathered together, you also have a Fifth. :D

[twinkletoes4445]

An Episcopalian charter would have been wine, scotch, gin, and soda. :D
As we used to joke, back when I was an Episcopalian: wherever you have two or three Episcopalians gathered together, you also have a Fifth. :D

LOL...that's good! :)

[Boytjie]

An Episcopalian charter would have been wine, scotch, gin, and soda. :D
As we used to joke, back when I was an Episcopalian: wherever you have two or three Episcopalians gathered together, you also have a Fifth. :D

We still use that line. :D

[RevNeal]

We still use that line. :D

:D
So I had guessed ... things never change.