Formal-Optional!

[Opinions]

On my recent 24 day cruise on the Zuiderdam one of the nights in the dining room was Formal-Optional....It appeared to me that most of the passengers in the open seating dining room elected to dress casual...Could this be the future of formal night on HAL?

[kryos]

On my recent 24 day cruise on the Zuiderdam one of the nights in the dining room was Formal-Optional....It appeared to me that most of the passengers in the open seating dining room elected to dress casual...Could this be the future of formal night on HAL?Oh, they're starting already? I didn't think it would happen that soon, but yes ... I definitely think this is the future of formal nights on HAL. And with airline baggage restrictions getting tighter and tighter, I doubt you'll find very many people even bothering to bring formal wear along on most shorter cruises.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[jhannah]

Next, two of the nights optional formal.

Then three of the nights optional formal.

Then only two nights designated as formal.

Then just one formal night scheduled for the cruise.

Finally, totally country club casual cruising.


Maybe??????

[Moriah]

I'm at the point where I just don't care anymore. I just wish they'd decide and get on with it, and whatever they DO decide I wish people would respect the dress codes. What worries me is that even when they do away with formal nights people won't be content and they'll start demanding for it to be okay to dine in flip flops and short shorts and g-d knows what else. It's not whether the code is this or that that I care about, it's that people be respectful - it's just not that hard to dress according to whatever is requested, or just eat elsewhere. I just get so weary of all of these posts about formal vs. not. I wish it could be a non-issue! I wish people could see "formal night" as an "excursion" - either you choose to participate, or you don't, but if you do, DO! See... here I go... getting all worked up when I just said I don't care! And adding to the reams and reams of cyber ink that's been wasted on this subject! :confused::o
Oh well.. it's more fun to talk about formal nights on cruises, or lack of them, than about politics or global warming.. so whatever.

[Harry1954]

I'm at the point where I just don't care anymore. I just wish they'd decide and get on with it, and whatever they DO decide I wish people would respect the dress codes. What worries me is that even when they do away with formal nights people won't be content and they'll start demanding for it to be okay to dine in flip flops and short shorts and g-d knows what else. It's not whether the code is this or that that I care about, it's that people be respectful - it's just not that hard to dress according to whatever is requested, or just eat elsewhere. I just get so weary of all of these posts about formal vs. not. I wish it could be a non-issue! I wish people could see "formal night" as an "excursion" - either you choose to participate, or you don't, but if you do, DO! See... here I go... getting all worked up when I just said I don't care! And adding to the reams and reams of cyber ink that's been wasted on this subject! :confused::o
Oh well.. it's more fun to talk about formal nights on cruises, or lack of them, than about politics or global warming.. so whatever.
We were also on the 24 day Zuiderdam trip that just ended. We were appalled at the posting in the daily activites bulletin that this evening's dress code was FORMAL Optional ... it was bad enough that someone ate dinner in Pinnacle in their t-shirt on the prior formal night, but basically they were suggesting that it really is not that big a deal if one decides to dress down on what woulda/shoulda been formal night.

HAL is suppose to be a five star line and this IMHO degrades that rating. Eating dinner in Lido or by the pool is casual dining. Eating in a formal dining facility should suggest some semblance of dress code - even smart casual. That is not what is being supported by the management on Zuiderdam.

We were very disappointed with HAL allowing this. Maybe they should give up dining room and let McDonald's or better yet Burger King (Have it your way to match their new dining plan) rule the night ...

harry

[kryos]

We were very disappointed with HAL allowing this. Maybe they should give up dining room and let McDonald's or better yet Burger King (Have it your way to match their new dining plan) rule the night ...

I agree with you.

While I have no problem with "optional" formal nights ... I do have a problem with sloppiness. An "elegant" cruise vacation does not mean one comes to dinner in shorts and a tee-shirt with flip-flops on their feet.

I have no problem with the demise of formal nights. In fact, I welcome it. I don't like playing dress up. But, by the same token, I feel there should be a certain standard of dress after dark on a cruise ship, just as there probably would be at a five-star island resort.

Many of the luxury lines that charge a lot more than HAL does for a cruise have long ago given up formal nights. They list their evening dress code as "resort casual" or "country club casual" and that's fine. But to allow people to wander the ship in all manner of "dress down" would be to relegate the ship down to the level of a "windjammer barefoot" type of cruise ... not something I'm interested in trying.

So let's hope that HAL uses this as an opportunity to relax formal dress codes, but enforce a certain standard that should become the bare minimum on such a "class" cruise line.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[GmaPajama]

Well, here I am - someone who almost never posts to controversial threads. This dress code thing is just something that can really get to me though, so I'm stepping out of my comfort zone. I just wanted to comment that we look at the dress code designation as a "minimum dress code". We look forward to doing the tux and gown thing on a cruise. It feels good to dress up - it feels good to US. We dress for special occasions at home (birthday, anniversary, whatever) and every cruise day is, to us, a special occasion.

I can wear a skirt, and DH a sports coat, on casual night and be perfectly comfortable. We're also comfortable dressing like that at the local diner if we feel like it - and we rarely notice if we're seated near someone wearing flip flops. It's about US and about the way WE feel, not about anyone else. If we want to dress up, we just do it - and if it turns out we're the best dressed folks in the room, who cares. No matter what HAL does with the dress codes, we'll be happy in our own little world. :) :)

[Krazy Kruizers]

Well we didn't see anything in our programs about "Formal - Optional" on either our 19 day or 7 day cruises on the Westerdam.

The 19 day cruise had a lot more people dressed formally than our 7 day cruise.

I really think that there should be some kind of a dress code in the Pinnacle (JMO) -- one night that we dined there a young couple (whom we saw later at the suite lunch) came in wearing t-shirts, blue jeans and ball caps -- and that is also the way they came dressed to the lunch.

JMO - I am not liking what I see on HAL for the dress code.

[sail7seas]

Well we didn't see anything in our programs about "Formal - Optional" on either our 19 day or 7 day cruises on the Westerdam.

The 19 day cruise had a lot more people dressed formally than our 7 day cruise.

I really think that there should be some kind of a dress code in the Pinnacle (JMO) -- one night that we dined there a young couple (whom we saw later at the suite lunch) came in wearing t-shirts, blue jeans and ball caps -- and that is also the way they came dressed to the lunch.

JMO - I am not liking what I see on HAL for the dress code.


It would have taken every bit of my self control to not ask the Maitre d' (Manager) of Pinnacle to ask them to return to their cabin and dress appropriately. Heck, I could have said it to them myself. :o

Some people spend the extra money to go to Pinnacle in order to be seated among people appropriately dressed. It is one place I think should never permit the sort of dress you have described.

Unacceptible!

[meterman2]

Well, here I am - someone who almost never posts to controversial threads. This dress code thing is just something that can really get to me though, so I'm stepping out of my comfort zone. I just wanted to comment that we look at the dress code designation as a "minimum dress code". We look forward to doing the tux and gown thing on a cruise. It feels good to dress up - it feels good to US. We dress for special occasions at home (birthday, anniversary, whatever) and every cruise day is, to us, a special occasion.

I can wear a skirt, and DH a sports coat, on casual night and be perfectly comfortable. We're also comfortable dressing like that at the local diner if we feel like it - and we rarely notice if we're seated near someone wearing flip flops. It's about US and about the way WE feel, not about anyone else. If we want to dress up, we just do it - and if it turns out we're the best dressed folks in the room, who cares. No matter what HAL does with the dress codes, we'll be happy in our own little world. :) :)



I totally agree. How other people dress, like the weather, is out of my control.

[Roz]

I've been reading several posts where the restrictions on luggage are being mentioned as a reason to do away with formal nights.

As a veteran cruiser, I've figured out ways to pack for formal nights that don't involve a lot of heavy weight clothing. For instance, my formal wear packs flat - black stretch velvet long skirt, glitter knit top, etc.

The only things I bring extra are a pair of black heels and a black bra. :D

If I weren't wearing formal clothes on a particular night, I'd be wearing SOMETHING that I had to pack.

I love formal nights, but I see the writing on the wall. This is sad to me. :(

Roz

[Biggles1]

Well, here I am - someone who almost never posts to controversial threads. This dress code thing is just something that can really get to me though, so I'm stepping out of my comfort zone. I just wanted to comment that we look at the dress code designation as a "minimum dress code". We look forward to doing the tux and gown thing on a cruise. It feels good to dress up - it feels good to US. We dress for special occasions at home (birthday, anniversary, whatever) and every cruise day is, to us, a special occasion.

I can wear a skirt, and DH a sports coat, on casual night and be perfectly comfortable. We're also comfortable dressing like that at the local diner if we feel like it - and we rarely notice if we're seated near someone wearing flip flops. It's about US and about the way WE feel, not about anyone else. If we want to dress up, we just do it - and if it turns out we're the best dressed folks in the room, who cares. No matter what HAL does with the dress codes, we'll be happy in our own little world. :) :)



Well said.
We are taking our first cruise on May 30 and hope everyone on board shares your views. We are cruising to see Alaska, the ship simply provides our hotel and travel and if some people enjoy dressing up in a tux or gown, I am happy for them. For my part, I promise to wash my Megadeath T shirt for formal nights. ;)

[Frosty 77]

It's about US and about the way WE feel, not about anyone else. If we want to dress up, we just do it - and if it turns out we're the best dressed folks in the room, who cares. No matter what HAL does with the dress codes, we'll be happy in our own little world. :) :)



Amen, Gma!!!

[hammybee]

Well, here I am - someone who almost never posts to controversial threads.

It's about US and about the way WE feel, not about anyone else. If we want to dress up, we just do it - and if it turns out we're the best dressed folks in the room, who cares. No matter what HAL does with the dress codes, we'll be happy in our own little world. :) :)



Welcome Donna, to the "other side".;) I like and agree with your approach. It's the same approach I use when dining out, at home or in a resort area. It's always a mixed bag so why should cruising be any different than real life?

[NoNoNanette]

HAL is suppose to be a five star line and this IMHO degrades that rating.

Surely you jest?

I love Holland America, but 5-STAR? No way.:eek:

[Mary Ellen]

Surely you jest?

I love Holland America, but 5-STAR? No way.:eek:
Hey, it's how they promote themselves. Welcome aboard our five star fleet (http://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-onboard/OurShips.action)
Welcome aboard our five star fleet[/URL] From the moment you step aboard one of our mid-sized ships you will recognize the Holland America Line difference. We sail with nearly one crew member for every two guests, providing the gracious, award-winning service that defines classic cruising. Our ships feature spacious wraparound teak decks, panoramic views, abundant spacious private verandahs and large staterooms. All our ships have recently completed extensive Signature of Excellence enhancements to staterooms and public rooms. With elegant fine dining and enriching activities, welcome aboard a Holland America Line ship and discover timeless cruising, refined for a new generation.Yep, nothing says elegant or refined like t-shirts at a formal dinner. :eek:

IMHO, HAL is getting schizophrenic with their advertising and shipboard experience.

[babyher]

I agree with you.

While I have no problem with "optional" formal nights ... I do have a problem with sloppiness. An "elegant" cruise vacation does not mean one comes to dinner in shorts and a tee-shirt with flip-flops on their feet.

I have no problem with the demise of formal nights. In fact, I welcome it. I don't like playing dress up. But, by the same token, I feel there should be a certain standard of dress after dark on a cruise ship, just as there probably would be at a five-star island resort.

Many of the luxury lines that charge a lot more than HAL does for a cruise have long ago given up formal nights. They list their evening dress code as "resort casual" or "country club casual" and that's fine. But to allow people to wander the ship in all manner of "dress down" would be to relegate the ship down to the level of a "windjammer barefoot" type of cruise ... not something I'm interested in trying.

So let's hope that HAL uses this as an opportunity to relax formal dress codes, but enforce a certain standard that should become the bare minimum on such a "class" cruise line.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Rita ,

I agree wholeheartedly:)

I too am no fan of formal nights. (We do so as long as those are the rules) but would be very happy with all "elegent casual nights"

Off topic for a bit:

I read one of your posts that you haven't been feeling well. I am sorry to hear that , and wish you the best for a speedy recovery:)

[PennyAgain]

Surely you jest?

I love Holland America, but 5-STAR? No way.:eek:

Anyone who believes HAL is 5-star is dreaming!

All mass market cruise lines are descending to a price point based marketing plan.

[brucory]

On our just in Oosterdam Alaskan cruise, the majority of cruisers dressed formally for both formal nights for the AYWD. Those that didnt squirmed uncomfortably. It was a very smart bunch indeed. The doomsdayers were wrong for our wonderful cruise. Most people seemed to really enjoy dressing up. :D:D:D

[JimVrhovac]

Being the shy person that I am I would have said something to the Matri Di about their attire and if did not take any action I would have talked to the Hotel Manager and the Guest Relkations manager.

If they want to wear T-shirts and dungarees they could have eaten in the pinnacle.

My grandkids come over and try to wear their baseball hats in my house. I ask them to take them off and they tell me that their dad wears his inside all the time. I inform them that that is in his house not my house and they have two choices: Take off the hats or get out of the house.

My wife gets upset with me but we have some basic standards in the house and the grandkids will abide by them.

Ruth & Jim

[kayden]

As a person that doesn't like to dress up ever, I still think that in the dining room, people that intend to eat in there should dress as the dress code states.

I think I may enjoy one night in the dining room just to experience it, but as long as the food is free, I will dine where I feel most comfortable. :)

[twinkletoes4445]

On my recent 24 day cruise on the Zuiderdam one of the nights in the dining room was Formal-Optional....It appeared to me that most of the passengers in the open seating dining room elected to dress casual...Could this be the future of formal night on HAL?

Honestly, I do think formal attire is on it's way out...even on HAL. It's just a matter of time. We live in a "casual Friday" world, and the cruise lines are going to do what they can to attract that large segment of the population that has no desire to dress up for formal evenings. And the rest of us will have to adapt.

[kryos]

Honestly, I do think formal attire is on it's way out...even on HAL. It's just a matter of time. We live in a "casual Friday" world, and the cruise lines are going to do what they can to attract that large segment of the population that has no desire to dress up for formal evenings. And the rest of us will have to adapt.It's not so much that we live in a Casual Friday world ... it's more a result of the airlines tightening up baggage allowances. While many of us traveling as couples or solos may still have no problem packing and bringing formal clothes, the family traveling with several children and who have to pay even for the first checked bag, is going to find packing light is the only way to go. When you're already doing laundry every other day of your cruise, or requiring the kids to do their own, you're not about to worry about packing formal clothes ... the room they take up in the suitcase can much better be used for other things.

And, if the cruise lines push formal to the point where people are faced with a choice; either pack those extra formal clothes for everyone in the family or get stuck eating in the Lido on every formal night, and then spending the evening in the cabin ... I think families will jump ship and begin planning land vacations at the so many resort properties that don't require any formal clothes. In other words, the cruising industry will lose a lot of these families that they've worked so hard to attract ... because it's a fact of life, people will not do that which they don't want to do ... especially when they are on vacation.

So that, in my opinion, is why formal attire is on its way out ... not necessarily because people don't want to dress up.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[hobbesy]

I have a curious question. I have no problem with formal dining. When I go to a 5-star restaurant in New York, I expect everyone to be dressed appropriately. But, the people are not wearing tuxedos.

So, the question I have is what really constitutes formal attire for a cruise? I, personally, don't own a tuxedo. The only time I have had to wear a tuxedo in my life was my own wedding. I've never thought of spending the money on a tuxedo when I can spend it on Armani, Canali, etc. suits. I definitely get more use out of my traditional black Armani than I would ever a tuxedo. Would that constitute as formal on a cruise? I'm more apt to wear a tailored Armani then I am a rent-a-tux.

I bring this up because I asked my friends, not one of them owns a tux. My father owns two. I'm wondering if that part is a generational thing?

[twinkletoes4445]

I think families will jump ship and begin planning land vacations at the so many resort properties that don't require any formal clothes. In other words, the cruising industry will lose a lot of these families that they've worked so hard to attract ... because it's a fact of life, people will not do that which they don't want to do ... especially when they are on vacation.

So that, in my opinion, is why formal attire is on its way out ... not necessarily because people don't want to dress up.

Blue skies ...

--rita

It's a little of both...I think. The younger generation, at least my boys, don't want to dress up, so they're more likely to go on a vacation that doesn't require formal wear. So as our generation gets older, and we quit traveling as much, it's that younger, and more casual group that the cruise lines are going to cater to. And so formal attire will go by the wayside, IMO.

And with the airlines changing their baggage rules, that's just adds another straw to the back of the camel for some. It probably won't matter to us, but it does to some.

Hubby threw me a curve for our upcoming cruise. He doesn't want to do formal dinners in the dining room. So we're not. I love to get dressed up, but he said he's had enough of suits/tuxedos and wants to go more casual. It's really not a big deal since HAL has the dinner in your cabin option, and I'm looking forward to it. It's taken me a bit to warm up to the idea, but now I'm willing to give it a try. I did tell him he has to take a jacket/tie/slacks with him anyway, so if we decide to do a show on formal night, he'll have to put that on. He was fine with that.

What can you do? lol I was just thrilled that he agreed to do a 10-day cruise. I'm going to bend a little because my goal is to get him on a B2B in the near future...at least that's the plan. :)

[twinkletoes4445]

I've never thought of spending the money on a tuxedo when I can spend it on Armani, Canali, etc. suits. I definitely get more use out of my traditional black Armani than I would ever a tuxedo. Would that constitute as formal on a cruise? I'm more apt to wear a tailored Armani then I am a rent-a-tux.

A dark suit would be perfectly fine in the dining room. On our 7-day Caribbean cruise, there were very few tuxes. Most of the men were in suits. We even saw quite a few jackets/ties/nice slacks.

I bring this up because I asked my friends, not one of them owns a tux. My father owns two. I'm wondering if that part is a generational thing?

Hubby has a tux, and our boys have no desire to own one (they are in their mid- to-late 20's). Our daughter, on the other hand, loves formal dresses and has tons of them! When we cruised, she had trouble deciding what to take with her.

[RevNeal]

Well, here I am - someone who almost never posts to controversial threads. This dress code thing is just something that can really get to me though, so I'm stepping out of my comfort zone. I just wanted to comment that we look at the dress code designation as a "minimum dress code". We look forward to doing the tux and gown thing on a cruise. It feels good to dress up - it feels good to US. We dress for special occasions at home (birthday, anniversary, whatever) and every cruise day is, to us, a special occasion.

I can wear a skirt, and DH a sports coat, on casual night and be perfectly comfortable. We're also comfortable dressing like that at the local diner if we feel like it - and we rarely notice if we're seated near someone wearing flip flops. It's about US and about the way WE feel, not about anyone else. If we want to dress up, we just do it - and if it turns out we're the best dressed folks in the room, who cares. No matter what HAL does with the dress codes, we'll be happy in our own little world. :) :)

The attitude you express is the one that I'm trying -- hard -- to solidify within myself. It's hard to break the self-conscious awareness that was drilled into me by my parents; they taught me to be aware of what others were wearing and try to fit in with them so as to not stand out, not be a spectacle, not be the focus of anyone else's' attention. "Fly under the radar, Greg, and no one will shoot at you." That way of thinking and being is hard to shake, but if I want to keep dressing up on cruises I suppose I'm going to dump the attitude and just dress however I want, regardless of how others are dressing. RuthC has sparked the attitude within me over the past couple of years, and I pray that it continues to grow. Because, otherwise, I'm going to be either a very unhappy casually dressed person, or I'm going to be a very self-conscious, continually embarrassed at being noticed, formally dressed person.

[sapper1]

My grandkids come over and try to wear their baseball hats in my house. I ask them to take them off and they tell me that their dad wears his inside all the time. I inform them that that is in his house not my house and they have two choices: Take off the hats or get out of the house.

My wife gets upset with me but we have some basic standards in the house and the grandkids will abide by them.

Ruth & Jim

Good for you. It may be a grandparent's perogative to spoil our little darlings but it is also our responsibility to teach them as well. Hopefully some of the principles of etiquette we try to instill in them will stand them in good stead as they go out into the world.

[JimVrhovac]

Cruise Junky
You missed the complete point of the response. So many kids today look like slobs, dress like slobs and therefore act loke slobs and feel that it is ok to disrespected what our (older) generation called good manners.

What they do in their house is not my responsibility and I do not correct them there.

What they do in our house is a different story and they do act differently here. They no longer bring their "gameboys" in and sit on the couch and play them all day. They treat each other and all the adults with respect. We call it tough love,,,,,,

Others
That all of you for your support. So ofter the grandparents are so afraid to say anything because we don't want to hurt their feelings or make an enemy. I put up with some of their behaviors for a long time and then one day I had enough of it and put my foot down. Has been different ever since.

Just our rules.....

Ruth & Jim

[RevNeal]

Cruise Junky
You missed the complete point of the response. So many kids today look like slobs, dress like slobs and therefore act loke slobs and feel that it is ok to disrespected what our (older) generation called good manners.

What they do in their house is not my responsibility and I do not correct them there.

What they do in our house is a different story and they do act differently here. They no longer bring their "gameboys" in and sit on the couch and play them all day. They treat each other and all the adults with respect. We call it tough love,,,,,,

Jim, you remind me of how my parents raised me, my brother, and my nephews. :) It's a rare fortitude these days. Thanks for making me smile.

[ger_77]

Jim, I'm with you on the baseball cap issue - if someone had come into the Pinnacle for a lovely meal with their baseball cap on, I would have spoken to those in charge. We have a no hat rule in our house and it applies anywhere we also go for a meal whether it's a fast food place or a restaurant with cloth napkins. I really believe it is a sign of respect for others that a man or boy remove his hat inside.

We found on one of our cruises that a number of men didn't even remove their hats when they entered a church - something we just couldn't understand. It seemed those "over a certain age" removed theirs, while the others didn't know that they didn't know.:rolleyes:

Just for the record, we plan on bringing our formal wear with us and when our family travels with us, so will they. You'll probably be able to figure out who we are without even being introduced - we'll be the group from the "frozen tundra" who appear totally comfortable in their formal wear. (note to self: leave snomobile boots at home)

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

[RuthC]

The attitude you express is the one that I'm trying -- hard -- to solidify within myself. It's hard to break the self-conscious awareness that was drilled into me by my parents; they taught me to be aware of what others were wearing and try to fit in with them so as to not stand out, not be a spectacle, not be the focus of anyone else's' attention. "Fly under the radar, Greg, and no one will shoot at you." That way of thinking and being is hard to shake, but if I want to keep dressing up on cruises I suppose I'm going to dump the attitude and just dress however I want, regardless of how others are dressing. RuthC has sparked the attitude within me over the past couple of years, and I pray that it continues to grow. Because, otherwise, I'm going to be either a very unhappy casually dressed person, or I'm going to be a very self-conscious, continually embarrassed at being noticed, formally dressed person.
Stick with me, "kid". We'll get you there. ;)

[twinkletoes4445]

So many kids today look like slobs, dress like slobs and therefore act loke slobs and feel that it is ok to disrespected what our (older) generation called good manners.

What they do in their house is not my responsibility and I do not correct them there.

What they do in our house is a different story and they do act differently here. They no longer bring their "gameboys" in and sit on the couch and play them all day. They treat each other and all the adults with respect. We call it tough love,,,,,,


Ruth & Jim

Jim,

I was raised this way, and we raised our children this way. Children need boundaries, and they need to be taught right from wrong. These days I pity school teachers. What a job.

[Jen&Joe]

I can't imagine wearing jeans/t-shirts/caps to the Pinnacle or the dining room. During a Panama Canal cruise we saw someone asked to leave the dining room because he was wearing shorts on a formal night. He came back about 20 minutes later very angry but in a suit.

[vbmom87]

I am new to cruising, but aren't there some cruiselines that are considered more upscale and maintain the formal atmosphere so many of you want? Seem to me there are markets for both kinds of cruising.

[world~citizen]

I agree with you.

While I have no problem with "optional" formal nights ... I do have a problem with sloppiness. An "elegant" cruise vacation does not mean one comes to dinner in shorts and a tee-shirt with flip-flops on their feet.

I have no problem with the demise of formal nights. In fact, I welcome it. I don't like playing dress up. But, by the same token, I feel there should be a certain standard of dress after dark on a cruise ship, just as there probably would be at a five-star island resort.



Regardless of your feelings with respect to formal nights (we like them), it is a lead pipe cinch that just as some people have excortiated those who have attempted to preserve the tux and gown, if formal nights were eliminated, the next target would certainly be those people who advance the cause of restricting flip flops and baseball caps from the Pinnacle - in other words - you.

Preserving formal nights is the best way to avoid the situation deteriorating to shorts, baseball caps, flip flops and bathing suits in the main dining room - the very situation you eschew.

Smooth sailing to you.

[kryos]

Regardless of your feelings with respect to formal nights (we like them), it is a lead pipe cinch that just as some people have excortiated those who have attempted to preserve the tux and gown, if formal nights were eliminated, the next target would certainly be those people who advance the cause of restricting flip flops and baseball caps from the Pinnacle - in other words - you.

I can't say that I necessarily agree with this. To go to an all-casual dress code onboard doesn't mean flip flops and cut off jeans. Many cruise lines today have all casual dress codes and they call them resort or country club casual. Yes, the jeans and flip flops are fine during the daytime, but after dark, I don't think those more "upscale" cruise lines have a problem getting people to follow a more elegant casual dress code.

Of course, it would all depend on which way HAL chose to go on this issue. Some cruise lines have no problem with an "anything goes" dress code in the dining rooms at night ... and I've heard that on some you will find loads of flip flops, shorts, and tee-shirts at dinner time and afterwards all over the ship. But on other lines, a more structured casual is the order of the evening, and most passengers do comply.

But I guess we do have to remember that HAL is, after all, a mass market line ... and as such they are competing with other lines such as Carnival, RCI, NCL and the like for the passenger dollar. So, I guess it is very possible you may be right and once formal goes by the wayside, it will become anything goes as far as what can be worn to dinner ... both in the dining rooms and the Pinnacle Grill.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[cruznon]

Hi Jim,
Bravo to you! I admire your attitude. (As a teacher, boys must remove their hats as they enter my classroom and put them back on after they leave.)

I love formal nights--there's a special feeling on those nights. BUT it's obvious the masses of newer cruisers that HAL is targeting, have great influence with the cruise line and many prefer casual--all the time.
Optional formal?????This is the direction it's going. It is what it is...but as others have stated, we, also, will continue to dress as we prefer--if we're "overdressed" so be it!

[caviargal]

I can't say that I necessarily agree with this. To go to an all-casual dress code onboard doesn't mean flip flops and cut off jeans. Many cruise lines today have all casual dress codes and they call them resort or country club casual. Yes, the jeans and flip flops are fine during the daytime, but after dark, I don't think those more "upscale" cruise lines have a problem getting people to follow a more elegant casual dress code.


--rita

I have seen other lines make these changes and yes, it does mean that people will show up in shorts, tees, ball caps and flip flops for dinner. People will push the envelope to ever lower standards once HAL opens this door. And there is no going back.

HAL will face these same issues as those other lines who succumbed earlier to the wishes of the vocal new cruisers (as well as those who simply ignored the dress code with no consequences) and they will lose the war, as they have apparently lost this battle. One of the differences that makes HAL "upscale" or "premium" IMO is that dress codes were basically adhered to, at least IME on HAL ships. Soon it will be a free for all and dinner in the dining room will be not much different from a chain restaurant experience on land. Apparently, this is just fine with many people.

I understand their need to compete in order to survive. While this may be a "win" for those seeking a casual cruise experience, it is a loss for those of us who enjoy a more traditional cruise vacation and who find our options more and more limited.

[Mary Ellen]

I am new to cruising, but aren't there some cruiselines that are considered more upscale and maintain the formal atmosphere so many of you want? Seem to me there are markets for both kinds of cruising.Yes there are -and HAL has been one noted for its more formal atmosphere. THAT is why many of us are sad to see HAL changing. There are other lines where those who want the more relaxed, casual cruise experience can sail. However, they like HALs wonderful service, so are wanting HAL to change to fit their desires rather than book a cruiseline that is more relaxed. :(

[Copper10-8]

I can't say that I necessarily agree with this. To go to an all-casual dress code onboard doesn't mean flip flops and cut off jeans. Many cruise lines today have all casual dress codes and they call them resort or country club casual. Yes, the jeans and flip flops are fine during the daytime, but after dark, I don't think those more "upscale" cruise lines have a problem getting people to follow a more elegant casual dress code.

Of course, it would all depend on which way HAL chose to go on this issue. Some cruise lines have no problem with an "anything goes" dress code in the dining rooms at night ... and I've heard that on some you will find loads of flip flops, shorts, and tee-shirts at dinner time and afterwards all over the ship. But on other lines, a more structured casual is the order of the evening, and most passengers do comply.

But I guess we do have to remember that HAL is, after all, a mass market line ... and as such they are competing with other lines such as Carnival, RCI, NCL and the like for the passenger dollar. So, I guess it is very possible you may be right and once formal goes by the wayside, it will become anything goes as far as what can be worn to dinner ... both in the dining rooms and the Pinnacle Grill.

Blue skies ...

--rita

The problem with this, as World Citizen so eloquently put it, is that it'll put you right smack back at square one again. In other words, that will be the start of the next "battle at the dining room door" including if/when and how to "enforce" the cut-off jeans, t-shirt, flip-flops and ball caps in the diningroom bit, pee'd-off folks who are wearing 'em, angry confrontations, marches to the front office, letters to Seattle saying "I paid for this vacation and it's mine", you name it!

Because, trust me;) , you know that there will be fine folks for whom "casual, no more formal" will mean just that: T-shirts, cut-off jeans, flip flops and ballcaps. You can't have your bread pudding (ground file formal night) and eat it too (all-casual dress code onboard doesn't mean flip flops and cut off jeans) so.........what's next?

[CDRMark]

"Black Tie-Optional" has been around forever and is one of the most confusing Dress Codes to put on an invitation. Results are a real mish-mash of styles. This is too similar.
How about:
"Business Casual-Maybe"
"Resort Informal-Possibly"
"Resort Casual-As You Wish"
"Creative Cruise Informal-As If"
Doh
Cheers
Mark

[iancal]

I often see people refer to HAL being an 'upscale' a 'premium', or a five star line. I just do not think that this is so-especially in the dining room. A close examination of their pricing and their ships indicates to me that they are a main line, mass market cruise line. Yes, they have a good product-similar in many respects to a Celebrity or a Princess. But Crystal or Oceana they are not. Maybe it's their marketing bumph at work or the brochures that they publish. We really like HAL and will take more HAL cruises but that does not mean we put on our rose colored glasses when we board one of their ships.

[kenish]

Maybe "smart" casual means baseball caps cannot be worn backwards. :D

[RevNeal]

I am new to cruising, but aren't there some cruiselines that are considered more upscale and maintain the formal atmosphere so many of you want? Seem to me there are markets for both kinds of cruising.

Welcome to the wonderful world of cruising! And, incidentally, to the perennial issue of "dress codes." It may seem ridiculous, and in the grand scheme of things that is precisely what it is, but it's a favorite topic of debate and cause for name-calling and hurt feelings around these parts, so you might as well just choose-up sides, wade in, and have fun. ;) :)

As has been already pointed out, HAL used to be a Line that provided precisely what you suggest we leave to go find: an upscale, formal atmosphere. Indeed, in their own advertising that is precisely the kind of Line they portray themselves as being even today. And, I must say, in many cases that is precisely what they are. I have been on many HAL cruises -- including a few months ago -- where the atmosphere aboard ship was upscale, formal, and even refined. Were there things that marred the "5-star" moniker they like to display? Sure. But was the echo of that elegant past still there, still appreciated, and still experienced by the vast majority aboard ship? Yes. Why should I, or anybody else, have to feel as though we must leave our long-standing Line of choice in order to get what we want when it was that very thing which drew us to the Line to begin with (in my case, 14 years ago this month)? Additionally, even if we were to go to another Line, how do we know that the down-dressing phenomenon won't follow us there, too? I'd rather stay with HAL, enjoy what degree of formality and upscale elegance I can find here, and -- if necessary -- just ignore those who don't want to play along. If that makes me rude, a stuffed shirt, arrogant, or condescending ... well, I'm sorry. I'm actually a kind, welcoming, warm-hearted fellow who enjoys casual times, too. It's just that, on a cruise vacation, I like to be a bit more formal during the evening hours. That doesn't make me the ogre that some have painted me as being.

[RuthC]

Precisely, Greg.
Or, in my case, almost precisely. For me it's coming on 30 years (30 years! :eek: ) since my first HAL cruise. I don't know why I'm now expected to look elsewhere so HAL can change to provide for others. Let them find what suits them and let me stay put.

Reminds me of a play title:
I Love you! You're perfect! Now change.

[Mary Ellen]

Precisely, Greg.
Or, in my case, almost precisely. For me it's coming on 30 years (30 years! :eek: ) since my first HAL cruise. I don't know why I'm now expected to look elsewhere so HAL can change to provide for others. Let them find what suits them and let me stay put.

Reminds me of a play title:
I Love you! You're perfect! Now change. I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. For us it will be 28 years with HAL come September (and I'm not even eligible for the senior discount at Kohl's). There is plenty of time for me to cruise with HAL, I haven't yet hit the average passenger age with HAL. I am looking at other lines though.....

[lawyerrose]

Just a way to get through to them, and show them another side of life. Somebody has to do it!

You think??!!!:rolleyes: What's that "other side"? Rude-ville? We see enough of it already - you really didn't have to go to the bother.

Rose

[iancal]

HAL looks carefully at all changes in consumer demand and they listen to , and gauge their customer base. They don't want to become another Studerbaker, Hudson,,,,,or perhaps??? of the cruise industry. They are astute business people who collectively control a great deal of cabin space spanning a number of 'brands'. The market will decide what their ships will look and feel like over the next 5-10 years.

[kryos]

I have seen other lines make these changes and yes, it does mean that people will show up in shorts, tees, ball caps and flip flops for dinner. People will push the envelope to ever lower standards once HAL opens this door. And there is no going back.

Then that is an issue we will all need to take up with HAL ... via our comment cards and whatnot.

Yes, I too want a more casual dress code ... but by the same token, I don't want my experienced lessened to that of eating at the roadside truck stop diner either.

I think compromise needs to be the order of the day. Yes, we'll have a more casual onboard dress code so that people don't have to lug formalwear to their cruise, but hey ... guess what ... it doesn't take any more room in the suitcase to pack a nice pair of slacks and shirt than it does to pack jeans and tee-shirts. No reason people can't dress presentably for dinner ... casually ... but presentably ... as in resort or country club casual. Someone else on this board put it great when he said dress casual as you would on Casual Friday at the office.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

HAL looks carefully at all changes in consumer demand and they listen to , and gauge their customer base. They don't want to become another Studerbaker, Hudson,,,,,or perhaps??? of the cruise industry. They are astute business people who collectively control a great deal of cabin space spanning a number of 'brands'. The market will decide what their ships will look and feel like over the next 5-10 years.
Exactly. And sadly, if the market "demands" total casual as in flipflops, shorts and tee-shirts in the dining room, then that is what we will see there. I just honestly don't think the market will demand that.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

Additionally, even if we were to go to another Line, how do we know that the down-dressing phenomenon won't follow us there, too? I'd rather stay with HAL, enjoy what degree of formality and upscale elegance I can find here, and -- if necessary -- just ignore those who don't want to play along.
All kidding aside ... if you ever find yourself with some money to burn and some time to kill ... try a Cunard cruise. Man, those Brits sure take their formal seriously there ... way too seriously for my tastes. But the rest of the experience is very, very nice ... first rate enrichment experiences, lots of dancing opportunities ... just a very, very elegant experience all around. Not my cup 'o tea, but it certainly had a lot of appeal to others onboard that sailing I took.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[world~citizen]

I think compromise needs to be the order of the day. Yes, we'll have a more casual onboard dress code so that people don't have to lug formalwear to their cruise, but hey ... guess what ... it doesn't take any more room in the suitcase to pack a nice pair of slacks and shirt than it does to pack jeans and tee-shirts. No reason people can't dress presentably for dinner ... casually ... but presentably ... as in resort or country club casual. Someone else on this board put it great when he said dress casual as you would on Casual Friday at the office.

--rita

Compromise?

Do you compromise?

As I see it, the present situation already represents a compromise. On our next ten day cruise, I understand there will be a grand total of three - that is 3 - formal evenings. That, as we know, is three too many for some, and many will not be happy until all three of those are gone.

I see no evidence of a willingness on your part to compromise with those who enjoy those three evenings. Why would those who want to wear baseball caps and Tee's in the dining room wish to compromise with you? What right would you have to expect it?

You will have to forgive me, but realistically, compromise seems to have left the building.

Smooth sailing to you.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

We certainly enjoy traditional formal nights on cruise ships. Like an upcoming ball, wedding or any special "formal' event we fuss about that 'shinny' look that we and only we enjoy.

If the mass market cruise lines, such as HAL, find the majority of their patrons no longer wlling to adhere to the more traditional dress code(s) (on certain nights), well, that's the way it is.

We, however, will dress according to our liking if the so-called "suggested " dress codes are no longer in vogue.

When we're wearing formal wear together I could be leading my DW across a 'swamp' and I surely won't notice the alligators in the mist.

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

[Copper10-8]

..................When we're wearing formal wear together I could be leading my DW across a 'swamp' and I surely won't notice the alligators in the mist.

Bon Voyage & Good Health!
Bob:)

Bob, I think they were Gorilla's;)

[prescottbob]

...write miasma. (A mind is a terrible thing to loose me thunk)

BTW:

How do you make a Gorilla laugh?
Tell it an elephant joke!

Be Well. I owe you a Wang Wang.

Bob:)

[hammybee]

Azamara, Oceania, Regent, Sea Dream and Windstar do not have formal nights and their passengers seem to love the casual, but not sloppy enviornment. I don't see endless threads on the subject of attire on their respective message boards as I do with mass market lines.

These cruise lines sell at a premium to HAL, do not cater to the 7 day bread and butter runs, families or round trips from U.S. domestic ports. They do not have assigned fixed seating. They also do not have the variance in cabin sizes/accommodations that you will find on larger mass marketed ships, meaning it is less likely that there will be passengers paying $65 p/p, per day sailing with passengers paying $3,000 p/p, per day.

These other cruise lines do not generally attract those looking for a cheap vacation, leaving from a U.S. domestic port and so, perhaps price and choice of attire sometimes have something in common.

I do not associate people's attire with character and am not making any value judgements. I do however, try to accpet things as they are rather than wish for what they used to be. :)

[babyher]

Azamara, Oceania, Regent, Sea Dream and Windstar do not have formal nights and their passengers seem to love the casual, but not sloppy enviornment. I don't see endless threads on the subject of attire on their respective message boards as I do with mass market lines.

These cruise lines sell at a premium to HAL, do not cater to the 7 day bread and butter runs, families or round trips from U.S. domestic ports. They do not have assigned fixed seating. They also do not have the variance in cabin sizes/accommodations that you will find on larger mass marketed ships, meaning it is less likely that there will be passengers paying $65 p/p, per day sailing with passengers paying $3,000 p/p, per day.

These other cruise lines do not generally attract those looking for a cheap vacation, leaving from a U.S. domestic port and so, perhaps price and choice of attire sometimes have something in common.

I do not associate people's attire with character and am not making any value judgements. I do however, try to accpet things as they are rather than wish for what they used to be. :)


Hammy,


Very interesting post

It reminds me of something my Dad used to say ......"The bigger they are , the nicer they are.

People who have the funds for a $3000 a day cruise have nothing to prove to anyone . They know who they are , they know what they are worth and they don't need to flaunt it.

I have worked for companies where the owner/president/CEO has been the nicest most down to earth guy in the world. While some of his underlings (VPs who were mailroom boys last week), have to throw their title in your face every chance you get.

A lot of the people on those up scale lines spend every day of their lives in suits and ties making the money for that cruise. Or they were born into money and have been to more black tie affairs than they care to think about.

For them a cruise is a time to relax, get rid of the suit and tie and just enjoy. No not be slobs , but just be casual and comfortable. A lot of them choose those long exotic cruises to places that aren't even a dot on the map, because they can truly get away from it all.

Its a matter of knowing who you are, not who you wish you were.

[RevNeal]

All kidding aside ... if you ever find yourself with some money to burn and some time to kill ... try a Cunard cruise. Man, those Brits sure take their formal seriously there ... way too seriously for my tastes. But the rest of the experience is very, very nice ... first rate enrichment experiences, lots of dancing opportunities ... just a very, very elegant experience all around. Not my cup 'o tea, but it certainly had a lot of appeal to others onboard that sailing I took.

:)
Indeed.
A crossing on the QM2 is in my future, as is a cruise on the QV and the future QE.

[Copper10-8]

Azamara, Oceania, Regent, Sea Dream and Windstar do not have formal nights and their passengers seem to love the casual, but not sloppy enviornment. I don't see endless threads on the subject of attire on their respective message boards as I do with mass market lines.

These cruise lines sell at a premium to HAL, do not cater to the 7 day bread and butter runs, families or round trips from U.S. domestic ports. They do not have assigned fixed seating. They also do not have the variance in cabin sizes/accommodations that you will find on larger mass marketed ships, meaning it is less likely that there will be passengers paying $65 p/p, per day sailing with passengers paying $3,000 p/p, per day.

These other cruise lines do not generally attract those looking for a cheap vacation, leaving from a U.S. domestic port and so, perhaps price and choice of attire sometimes have something in common.

I do not associate people's attire with character and am not making any value judgements. I do however, try to accpet things as they are rather than wish for what they used to be. :)

Hit plus Nail plus Head:)

[RevNeal]

Very interesting post

It reminds me of something my Dad used to say ......"The bigger they are , the nicer they are.

People who have the funds for a $3000 a day cruise have nothing to prove to anyone . They know who they are , they know what they are worth and they don't need to flaunt it.

I have worked for companies where the owner/president/CEO has been the nicest most down to earth guy in the world. While some of his underlings (VPs who were mailroom boys last week), have to throw their title in your face every chance you get.

A lot of the people on those up scale lines spend every day of their lives in suits and ties making the money for that cruise. Or they were born into money and have been to more black tie affairs than they care to think about.

For them a cruise is a time to relax, get rid of the suit and tie and just enjoy. No not be slobs , but just be casual and comfortable. A lot of them choose those long exotic cruises to places that aren't even a dot on the map, because they can truly get away from it all.

Its a matter of knowing who you are, not who you wish you were.

babyher, to use your own words, your post is also "very interesting" as well as being very revealing. I could ask you to amplify on several points, but I don't think that's necessary. Suffice it to say, we disagree regarding the characters and motivations behind those who enjoy formal environments aboard ship.

[mancunian]

To be honest I find myself very sorry for HAL and other cruiselines who are grappling with the formal dress, the dining and the smoking questions. If they were to take votes on this the largest number of passengers in each vote would elect for informal/smart casual, open sitting and no smoking. This is because that is the way things are today not because either way is necessarily better or worse. They ignore this at their peril because they must fill the berths and must move with the current trends.

It would in fact be much easier for them to insist on formal wear and have traditional dining but they really cannot do this with 14 large ships to fill each week. They also have to consider where the replacements for HAL cruisers no longer cruising, and people to fill the "new" berths as ships get larger are going to come from and what they will want. On the other hand they are not giving up on the people who prefer the more traditional way of cruising who have cruised - many of them with HAL - for many years. Surely this is to be commended, instead of which they are constantly criticised. Realistically trying to keep everyone happy is the only way to go. Yes it does not always work. People in the past have gone along with formal wear even though they don't particularly like or want it. There have not been many but some criticisms of open dining from those who have tried it but feel it has failed them, but in fact the traditional system has also had its critics. Fine if you get the sitting you want, but not so fine if you find yourself on late sitting wanting early or vice versa. You cannot brush these people under the carpet as if things have always been fine with everyone.

It is quite correct that many if not most of the higher class lines have given up largely on formal, have had open seating for many years in some cases, and I am sure because of the current health thoughts are as strict on smoking. I would urge those on both sides of the argument to be happy that HAL is taking a broad view and to get on with enjoying your cruises in whichever of the ways you choose. I don't think the grass is necessarily greener elsewhere. I know Cunard has been quoted and I know that P&O for example fit the bill for traditional cruising. But for how long.

[NoNoNanette]

Its a matter of knowing who you are, not who you wish you were.

BINGO, baby!

*blowing kisses* :)

[caviargal]

Azamara, Oceania, Regent, Sea Dream and Windstar do not have formal nights and their passengers seem to love the casual, but not sloppy enviornment. I don't see endless threads on the subject of attire on their respective message boards as I do with mass market lines.

:)

Actually, Regent does have formal nights, just not on every sailing.

And, IME, passengers dress very nicely on that line. They understand Country Club Casual and dress to a high standard as befits the entire experience.

Regent is my favorite line when budget permits.

[hammybee]

Actually, Regent does have formal nights, just not on every sailing.

And, IME, passengers dress very nicely on that line. They understand Country Club Casual and dress to a high standard as befits the entire experience.

Regent is my favorite line when budget permits.

Of course you are right. It varies by ship and intinerary.

[simplelife]

"Black Tie-Optional" has been around forever and is one of the most confusing Dress Codes to put on an invitation. Results are a real mish-mash of styles. This is too similar.
How about:
"Business Casual-Maybe"
"Resort Informal-Possibly"
"Resort Casual-As You Wish"
"Creative Cruise Informal-As If"
Doh
Cheers
Mark



LOL:D

"Black Tie Optional" has always been pretty clear to me - men have the option of a tuxedo or dark suit and tie and women of cocktail or long dresses or dressy evening separates. (A check on http://fashion.about.com/cs/glossary/a/partydefinition.htm confirmed this.) I'm never confused when I see the word "formal" (even with descriptors) on an invitation. It's with any form of the word "casual" that things get murky. What's the difference between "Resort" or "Country club" casual, "business "casual, and "dressy," "festive" or (the worst) "smart" casual ?

[world~citizen]

Azamara, Oceania, Regent, Sea Dream and Windstar do not have formal nights and their passengers seem to love the casual, but not sloppy enviornment. I don't see endless threads on the subject of attire on their respective message boards as I do with mass market lines.

These cruise lines sell at a premium to HAL, do not cater to the 7 day bread and butter runs, families or round trips from U.S. domestic ports. They do not have assigned fixed seating. They also do not have the variance in cabin sizes/accommodations that you will find on larger mass marketed ships, meaning it is less likely that there will be passengers paying $65 p/p, per day sailing with passengers paying $3,000 p/p, per day.

These other cruise lines do not generally attract those looking for a cheap vacation, leaving from a U.S. domestic port and so, perhaps price and choice of attire sometimes have something in common.

I do not associate people's attire with character and am not making any value judgements. I do however, try to accpet things as they are rather than wish for what they used to be. :)

Azamara is still tapping in the dark trying to figure out what kind of cruise line it wants to be, or so it seems - I note that in the reviews, yes, there are those who lament Azamara's "no formal night" policy. Celebrity faces the same issues. I know this because it is one of our favorite lines, and the matter does on occasion pop up. On the Princess board, they are discussing the issue yet again. The formal night phenomenon is not unique to HAL.

You suggest that price and choice of attire may "perhaps" have something "in common". Yes - and perhaps not. Your argument is, as I understand it, that those who pay more for their cruise don't enjoy formal nights as much as those who pay less. Well, what about Cunard? Also, we have attended formal nights enjoyed equally by long-haul airline pilots and long-haul truck drivers - at the same table on the Amsterdam. Which brings us to your final point.

I have to admit this one is a little fuzzy. You seem to be saying you do not associate people's attire with their character. Well, who would disagree? The association was not even made until you brought it up, at least on this thread.

It was an unfortunate association which led to babyher going as far as to infer that those people who prefer formal nights are in fact putting on airs, and pretending to be something they are not. (Dressing down = higher social status?) We agree with babyher that many captains of industry are the kindest people you would ever meet, and would themselves never make that kind of inference.

Hammy, the issue here is not about the nature of people - never was. It is about the nature of the cruise experience.

Here is a quote from the RCCL board:

"You can go to formal nights without a suit or tux, many do, and as long as you are dressed nicely, you wont be turned away. I have even seen guys in the dining room on formal night in jeans or bib overalls!!"

I think there are about 3 formal nights on a 10 day cruise. The formal dress code is reserved for those nights when the chef and kitchen brigade knock themselves out to present their best efforts. It is, at its lowest level, a sign of respect for the food service staff (and your fellow guests) to honor that code.

The issue need not be, and shouldn't be, who wins. Our response to the formal night question should be rooted in respect and consideration for the cruise line and our fellow passengers.

There are those that enjoy informal dining. That opportunity exists. There are those that enjoy something in between formal and informal, and that opportunity exists. The lion's share of dining falls into these two categories. For those that enjoy formal dining, that opportunity exists...about 3 nights out of ten. Bravo to HAL for being respectful of all of its guests' preferences. Why can't we as guests do the same.

[RevNeal]

Thank you, world~citizen, for taking the time to clearly articulate a point that needed to be made.

[hammybee]

You suggest that price and choice of attire may "perhaps" have something "in common". Yes - and perhaps not. Your argument is, as I understand it, that those who pay more for their cruise don't enjoy formal nights as much as those who pay less. Well, what about Cunard? Also, we have attended formal nights enjoyed equally by long-haul airline pilots and long-haul truck drivers - at the same table on the Amsterdam. Which brings us to your final point.

I have to admit this one is a little fuzzy. You seem to be saying you do not associate people's attire with their character. Well, who would disagree? The association was not even made until you brought it up, at least on this thread.

It was an unfortunate association which led to babyher going as far as to infer that those people who prefer formal nights are in fact putting on airs, and pretending to be something they are not. (Dressing down = higher social status?) We agree with babyher that many captains of industry are the kindest people you would ever meet, and would themselves never make that kind of inference.

Hammy, the issue here is not about the nature of people - never was. It is about the nature of the cruise experience.



It seems to me that the more costly the cruise, the smaller the ship, the more likely the majority of passengers are apt to have the same values as it relates to attire, regardless if it's formal or casual. One does not see the endless dress code threads on higher priced cruise lines. Why is this?

Actually, the issue here is about allowing or not, what other people wear to control your experience. When you are sailing with 2000+ other people, chances are, some of them are not going to dress or behave as you might prefer them to do.

Cunard does not appeal to the same people who typically sail on HAL's 7-10 day cruises. Cunard rarely sails from a U.S. port other than transatlantic. Cunard appeals to the UK cruiser and those who really enjoy a formal enviornment, in a big ship experience.

There is a profound cultural difference between Cunard and HAL passengers. None of this makes Cunard a better cruise line than HAL. They are simply different. Give Cunard as many berths to fill as HAL has, position them to do 7 day sails from U.S. ports and see how quickly those traditions are challenged by the masses.

A cruise line's values are nothing more than the passengers who sail with them.

[babyher]

I just want to clarify that I in no way meant to say that dressing down had anything to do with being in a higher social status.

The statements I did make were solely based on my personal experiences in addressing Hammybees post. I certainly do not aim them at anyone here in this forum. If anyone took offense to my statements , I am truly sorry.

[hylasgirl]

I am really interested to see if this continues... We are on the Westerdam in December. A bunch of my family and friends sailed on the Zuiderdam last December. I was unable to go because of an illness at home... but my father, which always dresses to a "T" does not really have a suit or tux. I told him that if he dressed in his dress shirt and tie and his slacks, he would be fine... The Maitre 'D made him put a jacket on... and gave it to him to use through dinner. It was huge on him and embarassed him infront of everyone. I have never EVER seen this before. While I always try to respect the dress code... more out of liking the dress up nights... I have never seen a problem with someone coming into the dining room on Formal night in "nice" dress and have them given a hard time. Has anyone else seen this?

[RevNeal]

I was unable to go because of an illness at home... but my father, which always dresses to a "T" does not really have a suit or tux. I told him that if he dressed in his dress shirt and tie and his slacks, he would be fine... The Maitre 'D made him put a jacket on... and gave it to him to use through dinner. It was huge on him and embarassed him infront of everyone.

This is precisely the kind of situation that I have long attempted to help people avoid through discussing the dress code on this board. No one should ever be caused to feel this kind of public embarrassment over a matter that is so simple to address. When I've seen it happen aboard ship, I often feel horrible for those who appear to have been clueless as to what to expect. Someone either didn't advise them properly, or a TA failed in doing their job. Hence, I've tried to help people on this board to not be similarly embarrassed; and, I'm so sorry it happened to your Dad.

I have never EVER seen this before. While I always try to respect the dress code... more out of liking the dress up nights... I have never seen a problem with someone coming into the dining room on Formal night in "nice" dress and have them given a hard time. Has anyone else seen this?

Yes, I have seen it before ... and on several occasions. The problem is that HAL is so inconsistent on enforcing the dress code that, had he approached the dining room at a different time or from a different entrance, it very well might not have happened to your dad.

To put it simply, HAL's dress code is very easy to follow ... for men, a jacket is required on formal nights. One doesn't have to wear a Tuxedo or a Suit ... a sport jacket is sufficient. One might get away with going to formal night without that jacket -- I've seen many get away with it -- however, I've also seen many men stopped at the entrance to the dining room and asked to return to their cabins for a jacket.