art auctions-read the NY times today

[m steve]

There is an interesting article regarding Park West and anyone thinking of buying art on a cruise should read it. nytimes.com

[brucory]

We liked the art auctions, but there is no way we would have spent 70k on art without knowing the value on terra firma (Thats a lot of cruises).... :D :D :D

[Krazy Kruizers]

I think it was 60 Minutes that did a show on the Art Auctions at Sea a few months ago.

[hammybee]

This is too funny. A Regent passenger paid $73,000, non-refundable, for two pieces of art because he says Park West told him they were worth $100,000 and now he's upset. Chances are, the following week Park West is going to tell someone that the same prints are worth $73,000.

Only one reason to buy art anywhere- because you love it.

We have heard time and again that the art auction connessions onboard cruise ships consistently produce far more revenue than any other department.

There is only one reason why the art auction connessions exist on any cruise ships- because your fellow passengers cannot stop buying the stuff.

I sincerely thank all of them for subsidizing my cruise. But then again, I also thank those who buy gold by the inch and $10 watches.

[Growler]

Here's a link (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/arts/design/16crui.html?_r=1&scp=6&sq=park%20west%20galleries&st=cse&oref=slogin) to make things easier

Tim

[cruzmaven]

Here's a link to the article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/arts/design/16crui.html

I have purchased art on Princess, which does its own auctions - it doesn't use Park West. But I've only purchased originals, not prints or lithos, only by lesser known artists, for under $1,000.00, and only to hang in my home, not for "investment". Princess includes the frame when you purchase a piece. If you buy a print, the frame is usually worth more than the "art".

I was on an "art connoisseur" criuse on Princess a few years ago. They had several of their artists on board who spoke briefly about their pieces and gave demonstartions. It was interesting and entertaining. There were also dinners and parties for the artists and invited passengers. (Not me.:( ) One lady purchased what was said to be an original Rembrandt litho to "hang in her bathroom". I saw several pieces sell for $30,000.00 and up.

To me, that's crazy. But what do I know? If I bought one of those maybe I'd get invited to the parties.

[m steve]

to make his GICLEES. Thanks for putting in the link. I didn't know how. Did he have a Ticonderoga #2 pencil to sign these prints?

[kryos]

To me, that's crazy. But what do I know? If I bought one of those maybe I'd get invited to the parties.
A lot of passengers were miffed on a HAL cruise a while back when it was reported that Park West took over the Crow's Nest for private art auctions for their big spenders. Apparently they reserved it for the entire cruise, and no one else could get in there. They had invited a bunch of their big spenders on that particular cruise ... all expenses paid ... and wanted to provide a nice relaxing venue for them to part with their money.

I guess art auctions are big money, and if people didn't attend them, they wouldn't have them. So, I guess we can't blame Park West for bringing all that "art" ... I prefer to call most of it crap ... onboard the ships. But I sure don't like some of their practices, and some of what I read about them. For example, they will pit two bidders against each other ... especially if they know that these two bidders both have a lot of money and both like the same sort of pieces. I actually heard a couple of Park West employees talking about this technique in the Ocean Bar one night. The one guy was telling the other (I assume he was training him as an auctioneer) ... "make sure when you have the private showings that you invite both Joe and John to the SAME showing." Those two guys hate each other and they will not allow the other to walk away with a piece they want. They will keep trying to outbid each other until one eventually folds and the other gets the piece at a very inflated price." I was sitting in the booth to the side of these guys ... in the smoking section ... and they couldn't see me there. I think that's why they were talking so freely.

I also like how Park West will no longer let you scarf up the free champagne at their auctions anymore. Now, they want your personal info first ... you have to register and receive a bidder number ... before you can have a glass of champagne. I guess the purpose in that is probably that most people won't register (I know I wouldn't) just for a free glass of that swill they call champagne. So, this way they know they only have the more "serious" person actually going ahead and registering.

I never could understand how anyone could spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on art while on a cruise. I don't know ... but if I were a serious art collector and wanted to buy a lot of pieces to grace the walls of my home, I would think the smart thing to do would be to go to a gallery at home ... or even to a prestigious art college and get the pieces there. At the gallery, they're unlikely to want to shaft you because they're thinking long-term relationship here ... not one shot on a cruise ship. And with the school, since those artists are not really well-known yet, you're almost guaranteed to get the best prices ... and then if those artists in training at the schools are good ... maybe when they die, their pieces will increase in value a hundred fold. One can always hope, right? :) ... the pieces increasing in value, I mean ... not that they die. :)

But I doubt very much anything you buy with Park West is gonna increase in value ... in fact, you'll be lucky if it's even worth what they tell you it is when you originally buy it. :(

I'd sooner go to the "gold by the inch" table. At least I won't spend as much money there. :(

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

I think it was 60 Minutes that did a show on the Art Auctions at Sea a few months ago.
Some interesting videos of the Park West auctions ... including the Dali ... can be found at this link for anyone who is interested.

http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=597450

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kakalina]

I am not an art expert but I do know that one doesn't lean expensive artwork against railings and walls where folks can kick it or brush against it. Nor do they store it all higgeldy piggeldy on huge carts meant for furniture where they rub one another and are exposed to all the elements.
I once "won" a work of art for "free"; by the time the explained framing and shipping costs, I would have spent over $500 for "free" art. I told them no thanks.

[CalGal777]

Amazing what some people will do for a free drink. I have never set foot anywhere near one of those art autions, and never will. I go on a cruise to relax, visit the ports and just enjoy the sun and fresh air. Do people really think they are getting the bargain of a life time? They are all on there to make a fast buck at our expense. I wish the cruise lines would do away with ALL that junk. What happened to the good old days when a cruise was just that?

[RedmondCruiser]

Let the BUYER BEWARE. How well this applies to Park West. Years ago there were some good deals on art that was auctioned off but those days are long gone. I have found that Park West has been over priced for years

What amazes me is that they have a high value art auction for high net worth clients ( ie - Rotterdam last summer ) and they make enough to be able to provide suites at no charge to these people. --- "theres one born every minute"

[Susie51]

Thank you for the link to the article. I've often wondered about leaning art against the rail and the possibility of it being knocked over. It didn't make sense.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Thank you for the link to the article. I've often wondered about leaning art against the rail and the possibility of it being knocked over. It didn't make sense.

DH has problems walking and one time he did trip over one of the legs of an easle which was in the walkway by the atrium -- painting fell over -- we just glared at the people in charge. They ran forward to say something. I then said that it was ridiclous to block pathways when there are handicapped people on board. The guy picked up the painting and walked away.

[Oslo Dutch]

DH has problems walking and one time he did trip over one of the legs of an easle which was in the walkway by the atrium -- painting fell over -- we just glared at the people in charge. They ran forward to say something. I then said that it was ridiclous to block pathways when there are handicapped people on board. The guy picked up the painting and walked away.

:D I can remember being on board a Princess ship where hallways and corridors were cluttered with this crap. I don't mind if there are the art auctions but I don't like it to have so in my face. Art should be discreet.......well anyway....

[m steve]

There are auctions on every sailing so about 50 a year per ship times 14 HAL ships, plus other cruise lines so each LIMITED EDITION is offered a minimum of 700 times a year on HAL alone. That is really amazing when the numbered print might be one of 100. It seems the same art is on every cruise ship I have ever been on.
And if we ever looked carefully at the sports memorabilia we we would have even more to question. Especially stuff signed by the reticent Joe Dimaggio, now deceased.

[sail7seas]

:) Kind of like the Caribbean jewelers who warn if you don't buy your tanzinite now you may miss out. There's only one mine where they have found it and limited supply,,,,,,, blah blah blah. :) I bought some because I love the color and the design of the pieces; not to fund my retirement.


If you love the piece of art and it matches your carpet, buy it. Don't plan on paying for the kid's college from the appreciation in value.

[ilovhywd]

I absolutely adore the fun stuff I have bought at these art auctions over the years (all in the $100 - $350 range). It was better than spending my money on souvenirs and T-shirts, because I enjoy the artwork in my house every single day!

But on every cruise, someone buys the Peter Max, the Picasso, the Dali, or the Erte and I wonder if they are thinking clearly or simply being carried away with the impulse of the moment!

[evilcarp]

Never buy something without researching it, should be the lesson here. I have a friend who loves bidding on art, but she always knows what her limit is, and she just buys what she likes and figures she's spending more for the experience than the value of the painting. I'm not filthy rich, so I just avoid them completely.

After reading the article, I'm reminded how they have seminars on board where they tell you how good an investment diamonds that you buy in the shops at each port are. In reality, diamonds are a very poor investment; they begin to lose value as soon as you buy them. But people eat that stuff up.

[hammybee]

I absolutely adore the fun stuff I have bought at these art auctions over the years (all in the $100 - $350 range). It was better than spending my money on souvenirs and T-shirts, because I enjoy the artwork in my house every single day!


I think you have a good handle on things. Tourists spend $billions on useless souveniers. Enjoy your purchases.

[Big Al B.]

I go, get the free drink and then sit on my free hand while treating the auction as a form of entertainment :D

[cf_chuck]

There are auctions on every sailing so about 50 a year per ship times 14 HAL ships, plus other cruise lines so each LIMITED EDITION is offered a minimum of 700 times a year on HAL alone. That is really amazing when the numbered print might be one of 100. It seems the same art is on every cruise ship I have ever been on.
And if we ever looked carefully at the sports memorabilia we we would have even more to question.

Many of the pieces offered are "examples" that are not carried off, but rather framed and shipped from Michigan when dealing with PW. When the "edition" runs out, they have to pull the offering, otherwise they are committing fraud.

I'm not a fan of buying art on cruises, nor am I a fan of what they call "auctions". I do consider charges of fraud to be serious, and your post seems to me to border on that charge.

[kryos]

I wish the cruise lines would do away with ALL that junk. What happened to the good old days when a cruise was just that?
Why should they? I wouldn't if I were HAL. After all, clearly a lot of people attend those auctions, so obviously passengers want them.

What we need to wish for is that people had more sense and avoided those onboard auctions like the plague. Believe me, if that was the case, and Park West wasn't selling anything onboard, they'd drop them. HAL wouldn't have to do a thing.

You think Park West gets passage on the ship for nothing? Believe me, that art auctioner's cabin is paid for. You think when Park West uses the Ocean Bar to peddle that crap that they don't pay a rental fee? Or, maybe in fact they don't. Maybe their contract just calls for them to give HAL a cut of everything they sell. Either way, there's big money in them art auctions and that's because we, the passengers, are idiots.

We are the ones who need to send those Park West people and their "art" overboard ... but not attending their events or buying a thing from them. That's the only way you will see the art auctions at sea become a thing of the past.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[cf_chuck]

One lady purchased what was said to be an original Rembrandt litho to "hang in her bathroom". I saw several pieces sell for $30,000.00 and up.

Most likely this was an etching, not a lithograph. If it was a lithograph, it was not done by Rembrandt as lithography wasn't yet invented.

[cf_chuck]

I am not an art expert but I do know that one doesn't lean expensive artwork against railings and walls where folks can kick it or brush against it. Nor do they store it all higgeldy piggeldy on huge carts meant for furniture where they rub one another and are exposed to all the elements.

A lot of what they offer (original graphics, reproduction cells, etc.) are "examples" and not what you actually "buy". From my observations, they treat the "one of a kind" works better, excluding your "exposed to all of the elements" since I'm not sure what you mean.

[cf_chuck]

Never buy something without researching it, should be the lesson here.

Always good advice. Unfortunately, the way things are handled aboard ship, this isn't always practical. There's no way to know, ahead of time, what will be offered and access to information once you know is sometimes difficult. Without having a good background in what is happening in the art market, heeding the advice is difficult.

I've talked with a number of people that were thrilled with what they purchased on board. While I considered the price to be somewhat high, the value to them as a memorial of the cruise was "priceless" to borrow a phrase.

[cf_chuck]

I also like how Park West will no longer let you scarf up the free champagne at their auctions anymore. Now, they want your personal info first ... you have to register and receive a bidder number ... before you can have a glass of champagne. I guess the purpose in that is probably that most people won't register (I know I wouldn't) just for a free glass of that swill they call champagne. So, this way they know they only have the more "serious" person actually going ahead and registering.

In my experience, all that was necessary was to express an interest in something with one of the "auction" people and a glas of "swill" was made available with the encouragement to register and stay.

I never could understand how anyone could spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on art while on a cruise. I don't know ... but if I were a serious art collector and wanted to buy a lot of pieces to grace the walls of my home, I would think the smart thing to do would be to go to a gallery at home ... or even to a prestigious art college and get the pieces there. At the gallery, they're unlikely to want to shaft you because they're thinking long-term relationship here ... not one shot on a cruise ship. And with the school, since those artists are not really well-known yet, you're almost guaranteed to get the best prices ... and then if those artists in training at the schools are good ... maybe when they die, their pieces will increase in value a hundred fold. One can always hope, right? :) ... the pieces increasing in value, I mean ... not that they die. :)

You must have many galleries that offer the kinds of work available at these auctions. I don't, in fact I have none. I agree with your idea about using alternative avenues to fill the walls, if that is what you want to do, and I have a good number of works that were purchased using these avenues, but my purpose wasn't to fill the walls.

But I doubt very much anything you buy with Park West is gonna increase in value ... in fact, you'll be lucky if it's even worth what they tell you it is when you originally buy it. :(

Nothing is worth more (monetarily) than what you paid at the time you bought it. Whether it appreciates in value over time is a crap shoot. If someone purchases anything with the idea of investment, the cardinal rule of investing comes into play - if you can't afford to lose the money, it's a bad investment.

[m steve]

and put it on display instead of Peter Max, Erte, McKnight or Frank, Dean and Sammy on black velvet. Now the dogs playing cards will give me paws.

[MERIDIAN]

I purchased this original masterpiece for only $50,000,oddly I cannot seem to look away from it.

[evilcarp]

[quote=cf_chuck;15438140]Always good advice. Unfortunately, the way things are handled aboard ship, this isn't always practical. There's no way to know, ahead of time, what will be offered and access to information once you know is sometimes difficult. Without having a good background in what is happening in the art market, heeding the advice is difficult.
[quote]

I always thought that the art going up for auction was displayed for a while before the auction started. And we have access to the internet onboard (it's expensive, but when you're about to spend thousands of dollars on a piece, I would think it would be worth it to check the value of it first). There's always places online where you can see what other people are paying for certain art pieces and that at least can give you an idea of what a reasonable amount to pay it.

[kryos]

I once "won" a work of art for "free"; by the time the explained framing and shipping costs, I would have spent over $500 for "free" art. I told them no thanks.

There's big money in the framing too. My brother said that the majority of the money he gets for his pieces is for the framing. That's where he makes a good portion of his profit.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[KLLund]

Awwwwww come on .. the art auctions are fun .. It is a great form or entertainment on a sea day .. I wouldn't take them seriously enough to spend 100s or 1000s but I did once buy a really cute Bambi Seriograph (whatever that is.. it sure wasn't a cel) for $35 and it is really cute in my grandson's bedroom ..

[cf_chuck]

I always thought that the art going up for auction was displayed for a while before the auction started. And we have access to the internet onboard (it's expensive, but when you're about to spend thousands of dollars on a piece, I would think it would be worth it to check the value of it first). There's always places online where you can see what other people are paying for certain art pieces and that at least can give you an idea of what a reasonable amount to pay it.

True, the pieces are displayed ahead of time. True, you have access to the internet. It's also true that you are not given a description of the work. If you know what you are doing, what you say can be accomplished, but you have to know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing, you are playing into the hands of the "auctioneer".

There's also the question of which internet resources you choose to rely on. I check out ebay on occasion, and I can't make sense out of many of the works that are offered there, in terms of their descriptions.

There are also the "exclusive" deals that PW negotiates with some artists. The chances of finding the exact piece on the after market are slim, so price comparisons are difficult. You might find something similar by the same artist, but that is just fodder for the "auctioneer".

[cf_chuck]

Awwwwww come on .. the art auctions are fun .. It is a great form or entertainment on a sea day .. I wouldn't take them seriously enough to spend 100s or 1000s but I did once buy a really cute Bambi Seriograph (whatever that is.. it sure wasn't a cel) for $35 and it is really cute in my grandson's bedroom ..

I agree with you on the entertainment value. When my devil's horns push, I have fun with the "auctioneers". After a complementary "swill" or two, I'll usually vacate the premises and allow the games to proceed without my interference. I do remember the first auction I attended (not PW, not on ship) some 30+ years ago and the excitement I felt with my first purchase. I can see some of that same excitement in the buyers on ship.

What you bought for your grandson is a silkscreen print. Finding a production cell these days for the popular characters is somewhat of a challenge at a reasonable price. A number of studios, including Disney, have begun releasing "reproduction" cells in "limited editions". These are produced using the same silk screen process as the print you bought, they're just on acetate rather than on paper. When my daughter was young, I was able to get a production cell of Eeyore from one of the Pooh toons. Her favs were Eeyore and Tweety. I tried to find a Tweety, but came up short, either because the price was out of reach or the cell was a repro. I'm glad you and your grand enjoy the work.

[KLLund]

Cf chuck .. many moons ago .. I bought a series of pencil drawings from the original process of making cartoons and they were of Boo Boo Bear. These were for the grandson's mom .. so when I got that cute Bambi I knew she would love it for her sons room. Bty .. the pencil drawings were somewhat ( read a lot ) more and that same store did have the cels for sale. As I said .. Many moons ago.

And what they called a seriograph was not on paper .. it was on some type of a plastic .. acetate whatever .. we had it framed with a shadow box effect so that bambi cast a shadow on the matting and it looked more 3 d .

[cf_chuck]

Cf chuck .. many moons ago .. I bought a series of pencil drawings from the original process of making cartoons and they were of Boo Boo Bear. These were for the grandson's mom .. so when I got that cute Bambi I knew she would love it for her sons room. Bty .. the pencil drawings were somewhat ( read a lot ) more and that same store did have the cels for sale. As I said .. Many moons ago.

And what they called a seriograph was not on paper .. it was on some type of a plastic .. acetate whatever .. we had it framed with a shadow box effect so that bambi cast a shadow on the matting and it looked more 3 d .

The print you got sounds like a cell reproduction. I'm not into the current market for toon art, but from the sounds of it, your hand drawings sound like they'd be worth a bit more today than what you paid many moons ago. Yogi and Boo Boo were quite popular and if I recall correctly, created by Hanna and Barbera, scions in the realm of toons. The pencil drawings were generally used to map out the story line and as a result, substantially rarer than the productions cells. Once the story line was mapped out by the creators, the job of translating it into the finished product was turned over to skilled animators who put the actual cells and backgrounds together. With the digital age, these types of works have gone to the dinosaur bone yard, so there won't be more of this coming to market except for repros.

[papadave]

I love the fact that cruise prices are so reasonable and I get a lot for my money. Alternative revenue streams allow some of us to cruise at fares which are much lower than the true cost of the cruise divided by all passengers. Art auctions help. So does Bingo. Ditto wine packages, internet packages, gift shop sales, spa treatments and anything else that other people are paying for when I am enjoying what comes without extra charge.

My biggest thank you is to the folks who eat in the Lido all the time, leaving more space for a relaxed breakfast, lunch or dinner in the dining room.

Also, thanks to those who are too busy to attend afternoon tea on HAL (I'm talking about the one in the Explorer's Lounge, not the dining room) where I can relax and enjoy myself.

[cf_chuck]

I love the fact that cruise prices are so reasonable and I get a lot for my money. Alternative revenue streams allow some of us to cruise at fares which are much lower than the true cost of the cruise divided by all passengers. Art auctions help. So does Bingo. Ditto wine packages, internet packages, gift shop sales, spa treatments and anything else that other people are paying for when I am enjoying what comes without extra charge.

You're welcome. It's all part of each of our personal cruise experience. Just guessing, I suspect the top three (in no particular order) additional revenue producers are the art auction, beverage sales (including sodas, beer, wine and liquor) and ship sponsored shore excursions. I do my fair share in the beverage sales area (grape juice). The casino is probably somewhere near the top of the list as well.

[mamaofami]

Someone I met through CC just was on a cruise that was paid for by Park West. She was wined and dined for several days in NYC and then spent a week going to Bermuda on an NCL ship. The auctions held for this high paying crowd were special pieces that cost way more than the ones seen at the general auction, and she spent mega dollars while on the cruise. She's also been comped by Park West to go to Vegas where she's also spent big dollars. She loves the art, has her home filled with it, and is very happy with her purchases. While the auctions aren't my cup of tea, there are those people who love them.

[RJ2002]

I go, get the free drink and then sit on my free hand while treating the auction as a form of entertainment :D

I agree with Big Al and others.... on one of the sea days during a longer cruise, if I'm not NAPPING in the afternoon, I'll swing by and have a free champagne and watch all the goings-on purely for entertainment purposes.

It really is interesting to watch the folks that are actually bidding, and the guys/gals running the 'auctions' are another story! Very entertaining 'salespeople'!

[cf_chuck]

Someone I met through CC just was on a cruise that was paid for by Park West. She was wined and dined for several days in NYC and then spent a week going to Bermuda on an NCL ship. The auctions held for this high paying crowd were special pieces that cost way more than the ones seen at the general auction, and she spent mega dollars while on the cruise. She's also been comped by Park West to go to Vegas where she's also spent big dollars. She loves the art, has her home filled with it, and is very happy with her purchases. While the auctions aren't my cup of tea, there are those people who love them.

As long as she is happy with what she purchased, there's little valid criticism that can be made, IMO. I spent many summers working the mid-west art fair circuit, and I was truly astounded at some of the reasons people bought art. It was a learning experience that I'll never forget and I do appreciate the fact that different people react differently to each work, for reasons of their own.