Yet another tipping thread....sorry

[Thatsright]

I tired to find an old thread to post this to - but many of them are months old. I guess this is a dead subject - but what the hey - here goes:

I wrote an email to HAL to ask about their tipping policy. I wanted to know if it was true that individual cash tips are forced into a pool. I thought this practice went against the very purpose of a tip. I admit it - I have a small problem with the automated tips - especially since they are pooled and even if you wanted to lower a tip for poor service or raise it above the average level for outstanding service you simply affect the pool. I don't like it. That said - I was astonished at the email HAL send back to me noting that the policy was implemented at the request of the Mariners!

"The decision to make this change to our onboard policy came from our Mariners. While we recognize not every Mariner or new passenger is going to agree, we believe our decision will suit the majority of our guests. Holland America has designated a $10 per day charge to include the many crewmembers that work behind the scenes to make each sailing a memorable experience."

Is this true? From what I've been reading on the boards it would seem to me that many HAL Mariners would rather be the masters of their own tipping. Has anyone heard this line from HAL before? That it was at the Mariners' request? Just wondering.

[doone]

I didn't vote for that automatic tips being added. But with that said, I will not remove the automatic tips from my account on my March cruises. I will, however, give extra tips to the people who I feel deserve a little extra.

[KAKcruiser]

I think HAL made that up to justify the new policy.

[Thatsright]

I didn't vote for that automatic tips being added. But with that said, I will not remove the automatic tips from my account on my March cruises. I will, however, give extra tips to the people who I feel deserve a little extra.
Actually, it is my understanding that individual cash tips are pooled aswell. I tried to bring this up with Hal and it wasn't directly addressed. Anyone have the official word on this???

[doone]

That'sright, I heard individual tips were not pooled, they were able to keep them. I read it on these boards, but then again, who knows. I will ask the servers while I am on board.

[20165]

I just read that HAL changed their tipping policy. Its been about 4 years since we have been on HAL and I was wondering if anyone could give me some more detail on what that means. I usually just followed the other cruise line recommendations when we cruised HAL which made it easy, but it sounds like HAL just complicated this. I understand the 15% on bar tabs, that’s pretty standard across the cruise lines and something I prefer so I don’t have to carry cash to the pool, but the $10 per day is a little odd. Do people tip above this? Makes figuring out the tip at the end of the cruise somewhat confusing.

Thoughts?

[localady]

"The decision to make this change to our onboard policy came from our Mariners. While we recognize not every Mariner or new passenger is going to agree, we believe our decision will suit the majority of our guests. Holland America has designated a $10 per day charge to include the many crewmembers that work behind the scenes to make each sailing a memorable experience."

Is this true? From what I've been reading on the boards it would seem to me that many HAL Mariners would rather be the masters of their own tipping. Has anyone heard this line from HAL before? That it was at the Mariners' request? Just wondering.
That is a bunch of baloney!!!:eek: But hey the marketing department is paid big bucks to "tweak" every change and cutback and make it an "improvement":rolleyes:. To blame the new tipping scheme on the past cruisers is just plain wrong! It's a way that HAL was able to cut the pay and benefits HAL provided directly to their staff, plain and simple! The only request we did make was that tips be allowed to be put onto our onboard account at our discretion, as on a longer cruise, tips can be rather sizeable and many do not want to carry that kind of cash around!

I was told in July by the crew on the Ryndam that if you do not remove the $10 per day auto tip from your bill, that any additional tipping to your stewards can be kept by them and not turned in to the "pool". But if you remove your tip, then they have to turn the tip in.:cool:

[RuthC]

I think HAL made that up to justify the new policy.The cynic in me agrees totally.

As far as tipping in addition to the service charge, the story goes:
If you leave the service charge on your account at $10 pppd anything additional you give individuals may be kept.
If you remove the $10, or decrease it, any cash given out must be pooled.

[sail7seas]

Ruth has it correct.


IF you leave the automatic $10 pp per day tip in place on your account, anything extra you choose to tip may be kept by whoever you give it to.

IF you decrease or eliminate the $10 pp per day from your account, anything you decide to tip to anyone must be put into the pool.

[Thatsright]

I see. Well - that is better than I thought. I was led to believe that there was really no way to award excellent service. By the way - how would the individuals who were tipped cash know to pool their tip or not?
This seems like a crazy system!

[sail7seas]

...........The only request we did make was that tips be allowed to be put onto our onboard account at our discretion, as on a longer cruise, tips can be rather sizeable and many do not want to carry that kind of cash around!




How do you know that is the ONLY request Mariners made? Maybe a large number of people did ask for automatic tipping. I have no way of knowing if they did or did not. Many of us here on this board did not ask for automatic tipping, but we only represent a very small percentage of Mariners.



I do not like automatic tipping but we leave it in place and tip additional to those we choose to thank additionally.

[RuthC]

By the way - how would the individuals who were tipped cash know to pool their tip or not?They get a list of who did (or did not) leave the service charge on.)

This seems like a crazy system!Yes.

[localady]

S7S- With all due respect, I have never heard one Mariner suggest that they wanted to be told that they were to tip $10 per day per person!!!! Although we are just a small percentage of Mariners here, we do represent a cross section of return travellers to HAL! To blame the current tipping scheme on the Mariners, instead of take responsiblity for it at the home office in Seattle is, IMHO, inappropriate at best!:cool:

P.S. I am sorry if statement was confusing, what I meant was that "we", my DH and I, did suggest to the front office, and on our evaluation forms, that HAL allow us to charge our tips on our credit card to cut down in the amount of currency we carried to far off places like South America.

[DFD1]

I can't for the life of me understand how in heck a cabin steward who received $50 bucks IN CASH from me can be made to turn that money into any pool of any sort. These guys are crafty and smart and, unless someone convinces me differently, I do not believe they will disclose these cash tips to anyone.

What happens if some deadbeat insists that automtic tips be removed from his or her account and then leaves the ship without tipping anyone? Then the ship's "tip police" trot down to the cabin steward and say " cough up your cash tips, buddy" and the steward has no cash tips.....what do they do, put him in the clinker?

This is nuts.

Oh, and while I'm on the rant.....I believe the decline in service reported here recently, the fewer staff in the dining room, the disappearing cabin stewards, and all the other sevice complaints that have been lodged on this forum can be tied directly to the new automated tipping policy.

To me, it only makes sense that a larger pool of captured tip money distributed to a smaller number of staff amounts to an unearned pay raise.

I know that many of you feel that the staff deserves better wages and perhaps that is true, but when there are no tips - or fewer tips - to be earned by giving outstanding service, the result is poorer service.

Now, Someone set me straight on this and show me how I am wrong.

Thanks for letting me carry on like this. My wife won't let me do it......DFD

[RevNeal]

Speaking for myself, I would have liked the FREEDOM to put a tip -- for whatever amount we desired, to whomever we wished -- onto my onboard account and bar tab. I asked for this option more than once, but I was clear in those requests/suggestions that such was to increase FREEDOM and ease of tipping; I NOWHERE suggested limiting how much or to whom. Hence, I do NOT like the new tipping policy. However, I shall not remove the autotip; rather, I'll simply tip additional amounts to those whom I believe merit it.

[Jacqueline]

I can't for the life of me understand how in heck a cabin steward who received $50 bucks IN CASH from me can be made to turn that money into any pool of any sort. These guys are crafty and smart and, unless someone convinces me differently, I do not believe they will disclose these cash tips to anyone.DFD

Here is the story, as I heard it and it makes sense. When the autip is removed, they ask WHY (sometimes -at least from what I overheard). One may say that they prefer to tip in person, one may say that they were unhappy with the service or one may choose to not say anything.
It seems that performance evaluations for those who gets tips removed AND dont get tipped individually suffer as this would indicate a level of displeasure in the service received. These evaluations are important in many respects - which is why on some lines the staff all but begs to get evaluated as *excellent* on the comment cards.

What happens if some deadbeat insists that automtic tips be removed from his or her account and then leaves the ship without tipping anyone? Then the ship's "tip police" trot down to the cabin steward and say " cough up your cash tips, buddy" and the steward has no cash tips.....what do they do, put him in the clinker?
......DFD

People do ask for tips to be removed and they are. Some people refuse to tip either on their account or in person. I would imagine that mangement looks for trends with individuals. They all count on working together as a team - the shipboard environment is not for the person with a very individualist ic streak- its more like the navy or being a boarding school teacher. There is an element of institutionalism at play.

I found most of the service to be excellent despite the dire comments that one sometimes reads on the board.

[sail7seas]

I can't for the life of me understand how in heck a cabin steward who received $50 bucks IN CASH from me can be made to turn that money into any pool of any sort. These guys are crafty and smart and, unless someone convinces me differently, I do not believe they will disclose these cash tips to anyone


Because they are honest! One either is honest or one is not.....it is sort of like being a little bit pregnant. You are pregnant or you are not.



And......I would imagine that if one of the stewards tried to withhold from putting into the pool that which they know belongs there, the pressure would be quite strenuous from others who would start to realize he was avoiding contributing what he should. There has to be
an 'average' and most of the stewards will receive similar tips over a given period of time. If one of them falls far lower than the others, he is either a very poor worker and they would know that, or he is cheating.

[DFD1]

Point well taken, Sail. The "average" business makes sense. Not so sure about the honesty thought, but I hope you're right. Best, DFD

[digby]

Actually, it is my understanding that individual cash tips are pooled aswell. I tried to bring this up with Hal and it wasn't directly addressed. Anyone have the official word on this???

That's what we were told more than once on the Westerdam in May. I like the new policy.

[peaches from georgia]

It was addressed directly on our recent Maasdam cruise and in the notice about tipping in your docs. The ONLY cash tips given to stewards (room and dining) that have to be turned in by the steward and pooled are if the pax who gave the tip had his automatic $10 per day tip taken off his ship account or reduced to less than the $10.

If you leave the $10 per day automatic tip on your account you can hand out cash to whatever steward you wish and they can keep all of it.

[ekerr19]

Peaches-

This was my understanding as well, but there seems to be quite a bit of confusion out there... :(

[dakrewser]

"The decision to make this change to our onboard policy came from our Mariners. While we recognize not every Mariner or new passenger is going to agree, we believe our decision will suit the majority of our guests. Holland America has designated a $10 per day charge to include the many crewmembers that work behind the scenes to make each sailing a memorable experience."

Nobody asked me. Nor, as we've seen, were any of the Mariners posting on ths thread asked. Now, if they'd let me designate to whom and how much I wish to tip - that would suit - I believe - the majority of their guests.

[localady]

Nobody asked me. Nor, as we've seen, were any of the Mariners posting on ths thread asked. Now, if they'd let me designate to whom and how much I wish to tip - that would suit - I believe - the majority of their guests.
Dakrewser- I agree with you wholeheartedly! Unreal that Home Office has decided to attribute this change to " the wishes of their Mariners":eek: . That being said, we left the autotip on and tipped our stewards and others a bit more for their wonderful service. My steward told me directly that since the auto-tip remained on our bill, he was allowed to keep the extra tip and not required to turn it in.:cool:

[sail7seas]

Nobody asked me. Nor, as we've seen, were any of the Mariners posting on ths thread asked. Now, if they'd let me designate to whom and how much I wish to tip - that would suit - I believe - the majority of their guests.


Isn't that what the old tipping system was? Tip who you wished the amount you wished???


Obviously it was not working out so great in recent years as a great many 'guests' were leaving the ship without leaving a penny in tips.

[JohnR49er]

Who are all the behind the scenes crew members that are now going to share in the pool?
Did they work all the previous years without being included?
The 10 dollars is way below what I would normally budget for just the cabin and dining room tips, so how is it split up? Are the cabin stewards going to get 2.00 dollars a day out of the 10.00?
I know the bartenders told me that they always pooled their tips. Maybe the others have been pooling all along also?
I'm sure we will get more inside stories of this mis-adventure as we cruise and ask some questions from the source.:rolleyes:

[dakrewser]

Isn't that what the old tipping system was? Tip who you wished the amount you wished???


Obviously it was not working out so great in recent years as a great many 'guests' were leaving the ship without leaving a penny in tips.
Isn't that what "tipping not required" means, i.e. you are not required to tip? Now if it's true that there are lot's of rude, greedy people cruising these days (and I don't disagree with that thought) then the line should raise the crew's pay and set cruise fares to match. Otherwise we come down to what NCL has instituted - mandatory tips!

-dave

[ekerr19]

dave-

Unfortunately the crew's pay has been the same or reduced (I know I'll be flamed for this comment - but I'm used to it by now...)

"Tipping not Required" goes back to the 1980's - 1990's when the price of cruising was significantly higher than it is today -

Here is my question to those of you out there who STILL have a problem with the tipping aspect...

Do you not tip at home? If you eat out, do you not leave at least 10%???

You are on a cruise ship, you are provided with a great daily service... also exceptional service in bars and restaurants... you don't have to tip, but surely why wouldn't you?

If you do it at home, why not on a cruise?

[dakrewser]

Do you not tip at home? If you eat out, do you not leave at least 10%???

I do tip both at home and on board within a range of 5-25%. I find it totally ineffective to leave no tip, but a 5% tip does get the message across that service was awful. Still, if you tell people that tipping is not required, some will take you at your word. There's less and less civility in the world every day, more's the pity.

-dave

[ekerr19]

dave-

I honestly think HAL has the right idea going to the auto tip...

BUT the "no tipping required" has been their anthem since the 1980's - 1990's, and carrying into 2000 - it is obviously a thing of the past.

If HAL were to clarify the policy - I think it would do wonders for their reputation and helpful for their pax.

We have yet to sail with the "auto-tip" in place (we just missed it last April) so I don't really know what to expect, but I will provide my observations once I return in November. :)

[Krazy Kruizers]

As Mariner's, no one asked us nor were we ever given a questionaire concerning the automatic tipping. Had HAL sent any kind of survery to us either by e-mail or regular mail service, we would not have selected the automatic tipping.

But we can understand where HAL is coming from. Over the last couple of years we saw more and more people not tipping anyone. The worst was this past Feb/Mar on the Oosterdam. When the waitstaff went to the stairs to sing their farewell song, everyone, except us, in our waiter's and assistent waiter's area got up and pratically ran out of the dining room. When they returned to our area, we were the only sitting there and the only tips they got were from us.

We were among the first to have the automatic tips added onto the account this past May on the Maasdam. We listened ver carefully to what was said knowing that we wanted to give extra tips. We weren't happy about the automatic tip but we left it on so that anything we gave extra went directly to those crew members who served us well and made our cruise an enjoyable one.

[sail7seas]

As Mariner's, no one asked us nor were we ever given a questionaire concerning the automatic tipping. Had HAL sent any kind of survery to us either by e-mail or regular mail service, we would not have selected the automatic tipping.



HAL did send an e-mail survey asking opinion about instituting tips on bar bills and (as I remember it) also automatic for dining and cabin stewards. I clearly recall getting an e-mail survey about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago. I also clearly recall that I responded I thought it a bad idea.

So much for my opinion..... :)

[TedC]

We were on the Westerdam in May when the autotip policy was being introduced. According to the CD, most of the people who elected to take the autotip off were Europeans.

There were 1806 pax on our cruise and just under 50 percent held US passports. Thirty seven other nations were represented. The largest contingent outside the US were from Canada, followed by Brits.

We left the autotip on and gave additional tips to our steward and our dinning room staff. Because we left the autotip in place they WERE able to keep the added tips.

(I had a friend, who, at a land-based restaurant, received poor service from a waiter. He left a condom as a tip, hoping the errant waiter would not reproduce.)

[cruisy]

As a party of five, auto tipping means our tips will automatically be at least $350. Let me first say we usually tip at least the standard suggested amounts.

I am annoyed, however, with the way it will seem if we don't tip our attendants extra, above their share of the pool. AND you don't even know how much they are actually getting from the pool. This reminds me of the restaurants which add an automatic gratuity of 18% to parties of eight or more, and then leave the tip line blank. What do you do? Write a big zero, add the amount that would make the tip 20%, give them $5 or $10? What ever you do, you look like a cheapskate if that extra you give them isn't a decent amount.

ALSO, how much of this $350 does the wine steward get for our group of five who exclusively drink Coke at dinner? I don't want to punish him for us not drinking, but shouldn't our tip money go to people who actually do something for us?

[ekerr19]

As Mariner's, no one asked us nor were we ever given a questionaire concerning the automatic tipping. Had HAL sent any kind of survery to us either by e-mail or regular mail service, we would not have selected the automatic tipping.



HAL did send an e-mail survey asking opinion about instituting tips on bar bills and (as I remember it) also automatic for dining and cabin stewards. I clearly recall getting an e-mail survey about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago. I also clearly recall that I responded I thought it a bad idea.

So much for my opinion..... :)



I remember this too! I filled one out - I said the only reason we continued to cruise with HAL was because of the tipping policy.

I haven't experienced the new system first hand, but I think it sounds like it works in theory - reality may be something quite different!

[Robin7]

shouldn't our tip money go to people who actually do something for us?
We were on the Star Princess last year, and that line had the auto-tip policy. We elected to remove the auto-tip from our account and tip personally. The amounts we gave were more than the 10% the cruiseline was charging.

But after reading about HAL's tipping policy here and in my cruise docs, on our 10/2 cruise on the Zuiderdam, we'll leave the auto-tip in place, and THEN give extra to the waiter, assistant waiter, and stateroom steward. At least that way they get the personalized 'thank you' from us, even if it is not as much as it would have been in the past. I really would be curious to see a breakdown of how much of that automatic 10% goes to which crew members.

Robin

[RuthC]

I really would be curious to see a breakdown of how much of that automatic 10% goes to which crew members.RobinIt isn't 10%, Robin, it's $10.00 per person, per day service charge.
A 15% service charge is added to bar bills---wine, potent potables, and soda.
The $10 is distributed: $3.00 each to your cabin steward and table steward, $4.00 distributed among assistant table steward, Pinnacle staff, assorted "behind the scenes" staff (such as laundry, rest room attendants, general cleaning staff).

[elmorejj]

For the above poster who doesn`t drink and wanted to know about the wine stewards share, he/she doesn`t share in the $10pppd, he receives 15% of anything you purchase from him, eg. wine, coke, beer etc....jean :cool:

[fran2]

During the disembarkation talk given on my recent trip on the Prinsendam many of the passengers applauded when the cruise director explained the automatic tipping policy. The service we received was so good that no one could possibly complain.

[Robin7]

It isn't 10%, Robin, it's $10.00 per person, per day service charge.
A 15% service charge is added to bar bills---wine, potent potables, and soda.
The $10 is distributed: $3.00 each to your cabin steward and table stewardRuthC, thank you for correcting my mistake. I had a colonoscopy today so my brain is versed befuddled.:eek:

I have a kid because I can't add so correct me if I'm wrong again, but that would mean the cabin and table stewards only recieve $42 each for a week of serving my husband and me? That's absurd! We have always tipped far more than that. Thanks for letting me know how it works.

Robin

[Orcrone]

This reminds me of the restaurants which add an automatic gratuity of 18% to parties of eight or more, and then leave the tip line blank. What do you do? Write a big zero, add the amount that would make the tip 20%, give them $5 or $10? What ever you do, you look like a cheapskate if that extra you give them isn't a decent amount.Actually Cruisy, I write a zero in there and total it up (unless I actually want to leave more). Why would I feel uneasy leaving nothing addition when an 18% tip is included in the bill?

For my son's rehearsal dinner the restaurant automatically included the tip. When they presented the charge receipt they went out of their way to remind me that the tip was included in the bill, so that I didn't accidentally leave extra.

[the2ofus]

As far as I am concerned, the $140 auto-tip is just a $140 increase in the price of our 7 day cruise. If one of the staff we interact with gives really outstanding, beyond-the-call-of-duty service they will be rewarded with an extra tip. We will not tip extra otherwise.

If we receive terrible service we will personally report it to the hotel manager and mention it on our comment card.

We will also write personal notes to the captain commending or criticizing a particular crew member as appropriate, as we have done in the past. This only takes a minute or two and I have previously been assured these notes will be included in that person's personnel file.

[sail7seas]

As far as I am concerned, the $140 auto-tip is just a $140 increase in the price of our 7 day cruise. If one of the staff we interact with gives really outstanding, beyond-the-call-of-duty service they will be rewarded with an extra tip. We will not tip extra otherwise.

For people who did not tip in the past, I think you have a point. For people who have always tipped, it is a matter of pay it out of one pocket or pay it out of the other. Many, many folks here have said that when they tipped on their own in the past, they tipped more money for a seven day cruise than $140. I know we did (and still do). We still tip additional to crew persons who make our cruises so special.

[localady]

RuthC, thank you for correcting my mistake. I had a colonoscopy today so my brain is versed befuddled.:eek:

I have a kid because I can't add so correct me if I'm wrong again, but that would mean the cabin and table stewards only recieve $42 each for a week of serving my husband and me? That's absurd! We have always tipped far more than that. Thanks for letting me know how it works.

Robin
Robin, I hope you are feeling better real soon!:) Although I am a product of new math and a Sunshine State education, but I think you are right. The good thing about the autotip though is that although the "Base" dollar amount might be lower for some, it is a consistent sum vs. not knowing if your cabins are going to tip or not. That said, those who are so wonderful to us, deserve that additional recognition from us.

[boards]

I know the dollar devaluation to you doesn't mean much, but to other it does.
$140 US tip for a Canadian is depending on the day given could mean $182 to us. That in Canada and even I think the country the crew comes from is not a bad tip. We plan on leaving the automatic tip on and tipping extra where we feel they have earned it.

[Ziggy7]

I was told in July by the crew on the Ryndam that if you do not remove the $10 per day auto tip from your bill, that any additional tipping to your stewards can be kept by them and not turned in to the "pool". But if you remove your tip, then they have to turn the tip in.:cool: Thats what we were told in Aug by the front desk and our room stewart :)

[the2ofus]

S7S, I am not sure I understood your comment. We have always tipped in the past, using the general guidelines that other cruise lines used, so for us the new policy basically will not change anything. We just don't plan on being overgenerous for the good service HAL advertises and that we have a right to expect as HAL customers.

The only thing I do not like about the new policy is that there is no way to make a direct, personal, monetary point with someone who gives poor service.

[the2ofus]

Localady, I just have to tell you that I smile every time I see your avatar. I love it!

[sail7seas]

S7S, I am not sure I understood your comment. We have always tipped in the past, using the general guidelines that other cruise lines used, so for us the new policy basically will not change anything. We just don't plan on being overgenerous for the good service HAL advertises and that we have a right to expect as HAL customers.

The only thing I do not like about the new policy is that there is no way to make a direct, personal, monetary point with someone who gives poor service.


My comment was a generalization about no one/no single person in particular but for the aggregate of ALL previous HAL cruisers who used to leave the ship without leaving any tips, or left very little. It is my opinion there were enough of them that 'stiffed the stewards' that HAL chose to change their policy.

[gliles]

It is my opinion there were enough of them that 'stiffed the stewards' that HAL chose to change their policy.
I think you are exactly right. There were also some nasty TAs that advertised that tipping was not allowed. Why else would they have changed the policy? We tipped more than we would have on any other line because we got better service than any other line but it made me sick that people ran out of the dining room the last night.

[Kami's pal]

"This seems like a crazy system!" Right you are.

I started posting here in July, not long after my first cruise in May, 2005 on HAL. I was on Noordam and, I think, the second cruise tour of the newly instituted policy.

I didn't like it. I had read my documents carefully, and had therefore found the information about the pooling of tips. That leaflet "you need to know" was included with all the other paper after I had paid for the cruise. I was concerned but, decided that all I could do at that point was to monitor the situation. It was a very hot topic among all the people on the cruise, (and some only found out after they boarded because they had overlooked the leaflet). So many people were questioning the purser that an extra "information" session was held in a large lounge. 3 men tried to explain HAL's position. Passengers were very pointed in their questions but I think we received more information by the questions the CD, bridge officer and entertainment worker declined to answer. They refused to answer "How much do you make?" "How much is a steward paid?" . However, we finally were told, the next day, that 30% of each automatic gratuity charge was divided among the " ... and cooks, laundry, night cleaners etc". I've said before, and I repeat, WHY ARE we tipping the CHEFS? The leaflet says, "HIGHLY TRAINED BEHIND THE SCENES" kitchen staff. Those are the chefs!

I'm now booked on 3 more cruises, none with HAL.

I think HAL has increased the wages of some by decreasing the revenue of others. And HAL has done it in such a way that passengers are coerced into cooperating because if we want to tip some people less (such as a maitre d' or wine steward), we have to penalize ALL the staff. So most do what I did, leave the charge on my bill, and then tip. I left my email address with all of those I tipped that way, and I did receive an email from 2 crew. Both said that they had not been required to turn in tips received from me. I know of two crew members who quit after that tour, BEFORE their contract was finished. Because, the pooling is not the only new term in the policy. They are also being dinged for laundry of uniforms and 1/12 of their fare home is deducted from the revenue of "gratuities".

I predicted last July that this policy was guaranteed to change the level of service. Many responders did not believe me. I seem to have been proved correct. I don't want to stop cruising, but I won't allow myself to be complicit in mistreating a very vulnerable group of people. They work hard. They sacrifice hugely to improve their economic situation and I think they deserve our support.

[croftonbill]

returned yesterday from 7 day alaska cruise on the Veendam.our first HAL cruise since they instituted the mandatory tip policy.frankly this policy is the 'pits'-previously,staff were enthusiastic,anxious to please-all our wait staff knew our names,and to some extent,our preferences.on this last cruise,when we left the ship,not one staff knew our names,or even cared!the attention to detail once beloved of HAL,is gone for ever-so sad.

[ssminnow]

I went on the voleendam last year with my grandmother,the service was great,I tiped the people that gave me great service,I guess grandma also did the customary tips also.
its sad to hear the service on hal went to crap...R.I.P. HAL..................

[pmolsen]

I'm from Downunder where tipping is not part of our culture. It happens in restaurants and taxis but virtually nowhere else. I'll probably get flamed for this but to me the US system is totally biased and borders on corruption.

Someone on this board was happily talking about how he secretly pays the waiter so he can get special treatment (extra lobster tails etc). Downunder we put people in jail for that. Not for tipping a waiter naturally, but what is the difference between paying a waiter for special service, and slipping the local town planner a few thousand dollars to approve your building development, or giving the ruling political party a few hundred thousand to adopt a policy favourable to your company, or paying Al Capone every week so he doesn't shoot up your joint? To me it is all just corruption getting around in various guises.

If you get a job in the service industry in Oz then you are expected to provide excellent service. That is what you get paid for and if you don't, you get the sack. Simple. Not only that, you provide the same excellent service to the unemployed man with 5 kids who cannot afford to tip, as you provide to the snobbish socialite who you know will tip big. If you don't like providing excellent service then you get a job in the local factory rather than in the service industry. By contrast in the US it seems that in the service industry wages are just the reward for turning up to work. You have to be bribed to actually do anything.

I see it as a sliding scale of corruption. In Australia you generally get the same level service regardless of bribes. In the US you have to pay bribes to get many standard services. In other countries (no names mentioned) the whole of society runs on rampant corruption and you can't exist without paying bribes for everything.

As for bias, everyone talks about how they happily tip the waiter and the room maid. Why do you single just those two out for special payment? They represent about one thousandth of one percent of the number of people who had to provide excellent service in order for you to enjoy your cruise. What about the truck driver who drove your lobsters to the wharf, or the fork-lift driver who unloaded them, or the wharf labourer who carried them onto the ship? What about the man in the factory who made the fancy plates you ate the lobsters off, or the one who made the silver-plated cutlery you used? If any of them had failed to provide excellent service then your "attentive" waiter wouldn't have had any lobsters to serve you. How much of a tip would you have given him then?

But why stop there? What about the tugboat driver who pushed your ship out of the dock without ramming it into the seawall? Or the navigator who came onboard to make sure you didn't run aground? Or the tens of thousands of workers who built the ship and made sure it wouldn't sink? If any of them had failed to provide excellent service you wouldn't just be complaining because the waiter wasn't at your elbow the moment you snapped your fingers, as though calling a dog - you'd be dead. So where are your priorities?

It is obviously that imbalance that HAL is trying to address. I'll happily pay the $AUD200 extra for my wife and myself for the 7 day cruise we're planning, not as a "tip" but simply as an extra part of the fare. And most certainly not because some people on here see it as "stiffing" the staff to not pay tips. It is not my job to compensate the staff for the poor pay they receive, and nor am I about to support what I see as basically soft corruption.

[dakrewser]

A "bribe" is paid before any service is rendered simply to get the (usually government) official's attention. A "tip" is given after the fact t osomeone who has gone 'above and beyond' to serve you. While tips are generally given to service personel, they are also given as "presents" to people in all walks of life.

As for tipping not being "a part of the culture" down under, wait staff & cabbies in Sydnet not only didn't refuse tips last spring but all but came out and asked for them. Evidently that's to counter those who tell us that tipping just doesn't happen in Australia.

[pmolsen]

The person who talked about lobster tails under his tuxedo said he pays in advance. That's a bribe.

Another person spoke about how those who "stiff" the staff would likely be treated the next time they take a cruise. That's what Al Capone did. "You pays up or you suffer later." And it usually doesn't take that long. If you don't pay up the negative reaction usually is usually immediate. That completely negates the "reward" argument and makes it obvious that it is a mandatory "bribe" you have to pay. No different from in Russia where my nephew failed to get his passport correctly stamped when he entered the country on a recent trip. In Moscow he was escorted to a deep, dark prison area by a policeman who threatened to lock him up if he didn't pay a suitable "tip" for the official to provide the required stamp. Needless to say he paid up. "Corruption" or "reward"? You tell me.
The other area of soft corruption in relation to receiving part of your wage "under the table" is what happens when it comes time for Uncle Sam to get his cut. Or does the IRS automatically assume that everyone who works in the service industry earns 15% more than his payslips show? It is obviously also a big benefit to the employers, who thereby get to pay less payroll tax (if you have that over there.)

As for wait staff and taxis expecting tips in Sydney, that is exactly what I said. But nowhere else. (I'll qualify that. We can spot a sucker a mile off!)

But hey, in spite of appearances I'm not trying to put you guys down. I love your country and your people and we're coming back for a visit again next year. I realise that we have to tip so we do (grudgingly, even though I incorrectly said "happily" above).

The point I'm trying to make is that cultures are different. What may seem natural to you may seem strange or even slightly offensive to others. The reason many visitors choose not to tip over there is not because they are vultures but because it is alien to their culture. Do you wear a caftan and head scarf and does your wife wear a veil if/when you visit Muslim countries? Of course not. Just because you know something is the local custom does not mean you automatically go along with it.

Heck, what does it all matter as long as it doesn't spoil your trips. My nephew thought it was a great adventure in Moscow - it was the highlight of his trip.

[Globaliser]

....

[dakrewser]

The person who talked about lobster tails under his tuxedo said he pays in advance. That's a bribe.

I'm the one who said that. It was sarcasm, i.e., a joke. That is, a fib. A tale. Not true. Sorry you didn't get it, perhaps the disclaimer was in type too small for you to read. So here it is again:

Do note that this is what is referred to as satire. It is not true, and does not remotely resemble my actions on a cruise. There is no "Notredam" in the HAL fleet. Ramelan and Dian are Indonesian names, but the characters I mentioned are not based on any actual stewards. Your mileage may vary. Void in Jakarta. Flame me and I'll tell you to Get a Life - or worse! :rolleyes:

[dakrewser]

I'll try to put it less unkindly: Certain service sectors can spot an American coming a mile off, and can foresee easy extra money coming their way. If you know what you're about, it's easy to tell them where to shove their emotional blackmail.
Oh please. Most Aussie can't tell the difference between an American and a Canadian any easier than most Americans can distinguish a Tazzie from a Kiwi.

But, tell me, do the Australian restaurants keep special receipt printers just for the Americans customers? So that the credit card receipts can be printed with a seperate line for tips?

-dave

[Globaliser]

Oh please. Most Aussie can't tell the difference between an American and a Canadian any easier than most Americans can distinguish a Tazzie from a Kiwi.

But, tell me, do the Australian restaurants keep special receipt printers just for the Americans customers? So that the credit card receipts can be printed with a seperate line for tips?Well, if we're going to enter into a debate about it, I think you'll find that this is actually a common phenomenon all over the world; they might just get less far, or less out of, a Canadian. :)

As for the tip line, most Aussies that I know ignore it. If you enter something because you think it's expected, that's your own choice.

[pmolsen]

To clarify Aussies tipping in Australia. If someone goes to an average restaurant they will generally give a small tip. Often just to bring the total up to the next $1 or $5 and often just because it is more convenient for them not to have to worry about the change. If they choose not to tip, the waiter would not dare raise his eyebrows or show displeasure in any way. If he did he would never see that customer again.

In more expensive restaurants tipping is more common, perhaps up to 10%, but again no displeasure would be shown if the person chooses not to and they would certainly not be treated any differently the next time they visit.
The tips just get added to the total. Tipping individuals separately (eg. drinks waiters) doesn't happen.

If you are just buying drinks and not a meal, and are required to pay when the drinks are delivered, it is not uncommon to leave a few cents. Normally just to make up to the next 50c or one dollar. And again it is just as normal and equally acceptable to expect to receive the exact change. The waiter will usually assume the latter unless you indicate otherwise. If you buy drinks over the counter you might leave 5c lying on the bar after you get the change. 95% of people don't.

In taxis a similar situation applies. For a short trip you might make it up to the next dollar, purely for convenience. For a longer trip maybe up to the next $5. But the driver will normally assume that you require the exact change and will certainly not show displeasure if you don't tip and will not refuse your booking the next time just because you don't.

(As the previous poster noted, everyone is happy to make Americans feel like they are at home...)

As with the UK, all prices quoted include all taxes, except in wholesale or trade places. We like to know up front exactly what the price is for everything and hate "hidden" fees and charges. So much so that there are very stringent laws requiring full disclosure of all hidden charges in everything (insurance, mobile phones etc.)

More than anything though we hate someone assuming we will give them more than what is quoted up front. If we do tip then it is totally voluntary. They get paid by their employer to provide excellent service, not by the customer. If the service is poor we don't return. That is what ensures the staff do a good job, not our tips. But that is just our culture. There are no absolute rights or wrongs in one culture vs another.

[Whiskeyman]

I read on here somewhere that out of the $10 pdpp the steward gets 3 dollars per day pp the waiter gets 3 dollars per day pp, and the other 4 dollars I don't remember. Maybe that goes into a pool for people like bartenders or service people behind the scenes, Like I said I dunno for sure , But thats my 2 cents.:o

[HeatherInFlorida]

Whether or not the new tipping policy is a result of Mariner's opinions could be debated forever.

But even if the majority did "vote" for automatic tipping, HAL could then interpret that any way they wished.

Celebrity got it right ... HAL got it wrong. Upon request Celebrity will place an autotip on your bill. But if you choose to tip on your own, that's fine, too, and the staff keeps all tips given directly to them.

I highly doubt that in HAL's questionnaire they asked how the Mariner's would feel about "pooling tips". It's nonsense, doesn't go to the individual you intended and completely ignores the very definition of a "tip".

So it all comes down to this ... be very careful when voting for anything. "Life is like a box of chocolates ... you never know what you're gonna get";)

[pmolsen]

Sorry, I forgot my signature credentials...