Oosterdam Spring Break Cruise Cancelled... [Archive]

want2travelbad

September 28th, 2004, 07:09 PM

svnelvn, you are the third person reporting this. Cerinda, another Cruise Critic member, and I also booked on the same ship for the sailing on the 19th. She has a post further down on this Board, titled "HAL canned our cruise".

I did not think that Princess sailed out of San Diego...I thought it sailed out of Los Angeles? Maybe I need to check into that.

Since I responded earlier today to Cerinda's post, I have been contacted by my TA. HAL has offered to switch us to a different week, matching the rate we paid, and is offering us a $50.00 pp shipboard credit. Am not sure if "different week", is limited to a Mexican itinerary. Oh, and we could go on the 10 day, leaving the 16th, but pay the price difference. My TA is countering, and I am waiting the hear, but I don't have my hopes up.

My DS is at an age where it is no longer feasible to pull him out of school, so we booked this over his spring break. Our Xmas break is booked to see relatives, so that only leaves the summertime as an alternative. Also, we had already booked our airfare for this trip, and it is nonrefundable, must be used by 9/05, and has a $100 pp reservation change fee requirement.

I will be happy if HAL would let us sail to Alaska, for 7 days, in a BD (same cabin we had booked in March), at the cost we paid for our Mexican cruise, and would give us a $300 shipboard credit to offset our airfare change fees. If we could find another cruise, with the same itinerary, leaving the same date, even with a different line, I would hop on that and ditch HAL, but I didn't think there were other ships leaving that day/that port. It would save me my airline fee hassles.

I think the pp shipboard credit they are offering is so insulting, given they routinely offer shipboard credits of this amount and more, with a code.

I can understand being bumped for a charter, but for HAL to think it is okay for pax to incur additional expenses for the pleasure of vacationing with them is beyond my comprehension. If it is HAL's position to hold firm with their initial offer, I will NEVER sail with them (this was to be our first experience), will bad mouth them every chance I get, will send a letter to HAL's president letting him know what I think about their treatment of booked passengers, and will likely contact the BBB.

I recently read, on the Cruise Critic Boards, of a member sailing on Carnival who was offered another cruise at 50% plus a $500 shipboard credit, all because her/his cruise was cancelled because of weather. Amazing to compare this story with my situation.

Sorry for the rant, but my first impressions of HAL have not been good.

shipgirl56

September 29th, 2004, 06:13 AM

Thanks to all of you for your kind thoughts. It really helps to have support!

Our travel agent called and said that the Diamond Princess has the same ports & dates for about the same price. Do any of you know anything about this ship or cruiseline? I have to know a little more before I can book. I am still so sad!!

Thanks again...I have never cruised on Princess before, but I did get to go on the Diamond Princess on 9/24. Beautiful ship and BIG! 112,000 tons. I saw every public area on the ship and one balcony stateroom. I thought the room was a little small, but there was a lot of storage space.

Can't sleep! I leave in a few hours for the Oosterdam, Panama Canal - be back 10/17.

Orcrone

September 29th, 2004, 08:27 AM

Want2travelbad,

I'm sure many on this site will tell you how wonderful HAL is, give them another chance, why don't you try this or that dam ship. However, everything you say is correct. You have non-refundable air, dates that are not flexable and are being offered a shipboard credit that most people get by calling and saying "7031". That is disgraceful (IMHO).

If I were in your shoes and didn't receive any additional consideration from HAL (upgrade to a higher category, longer cruise, larger shipboard credit, etc.) then they would lose my business forever.

Let's keep in mind. They didn't cancel the cruise because of weather or mechanical problems beyond their control. They cancelled it because of their opportunity to make more money. I realize that's why HAL (and all businesses) are in business, but they shouldn't expect their customers to incur extra costs in order for them to rake in a higher profit.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox.

Orcrone

PS Would travel insurance pay for airline change fees in this situation?

dakrewser

September 29th, 2004, 12:54 PM

PS Would travel insurance pay for airline change fees in this situation?
Yes, it would. But if I could say something in the line's defense -

This cruise is still 6 months away. The PAX can cancel their booking with no penalty. That's what the line is attempting to do also. THe $200 credit is more than they need to do. It's not great customer service, admittedly, and a first time HAL cruiser would be fully justified in using this as a reason to avoid the line. I had a bad experience with Carnival 10 years ago and have never even considered cruising with them again. There are too many lines, too many cruises to risk this kind of behavior again. It's something HAL marketing really needs to focus on.

As to the non-refundable air. Let this be a lesson to all - if you're going to book your own air, make sure its either refundable, or insured. And don't book it before you've made final payment on the cruise.

-dave

lipoppop

September 29th, 2004, 01:03 PM

I am curious as to where in their documentation does it say HAL can cancel the contract with a passenger because they want to charter the vessel. I don't see it on the HAL web site and don't have a copy of my old documentation packages.

I can understand cancellations due to conditions beyond their control but to resell a product that has already been sold is something I do not understand.

Has this happened before and has it been done after cruisers have made the final payment?

dakrewser

September 29th, 2004, 01:25 PM

I am curious as to where in their documentation does it say HAL can cancel the contract with a passenger because they want to charter the vessel.
According to the contract (http://www.hollandamerica.com/policies/cruise.do):

"In consideration of the receipt in full of the fare and subject to the terms and conditions of this contract: (a) Owner agrees to transport you on the Ship in order to enable you to take the Ship portion of the Cruise or Cruisetour..."

"5. Change in Itinerary/Cancellation: (a) Although we will use our best efforts to provide you with the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or HAL Land Trips, situations may occur which require that changes be made. By way of example only..." [lists dozens of possibilities]

"If a Cruise, Cruisetour or HAL Land Trip is cancelled before commencement, you will be entitled, as your exclusive remedy, to receive the applicable Refund Amount."

In other words, until final payment is made there is no binding contract and even after final payment the cruise could still be cancelled for any reason.

-dave

Orcrone

September 29th, 2004, 01:28 PM

Yes, it would. But if I could say something in the line's defense -

This cruise is still 6 months away. The PAX can cancel their booking with no penalty. That's what the line is attempting to do also. THe $200 credit is more than they need to do. It's not great customer service, admittedly, and a first time HAL cruiser would be fully justified in using this as a reason to avoid the line. I had a bad experience with Carnival 10 years ago and have never even considered cruising with them again. There are too many lines, too many cruises to risk this kind of behavior again. It's something HAL marketing really needs to focus on.

As to the non-refundable air. Let this be a lesson to all - if you're going to book your own air, make sure its either refundable, or insured. And don't book it before you've made final payment on the cruise.

-daveI agree with you about the poor customer service. But another thing to keep in mind. I booked my March cruise on the Zuiderdam two months ago. Since then, my category has gone up over $200 per person. I'm locked in at the lower rate, however, someone wishing to book today would have to pay the new, higher rate. This is what happened to a poster on the other thread about this. If the people affected by this choose to book another HAL cruise, they should at least offer them the lowest fare that was available at any time for the itinerary, and no more than what they paid for the cancelled cruise. However, as March is drawing nearer many fares have gone up. If those affected had booked originally with the itineraries they are being forced into, they would have paid a lower fare.

Also, I don't buy the argument of being able to cancel without penalty. There will always be a certain number of people who cancel. HAL (and all cruise lines) figure that into their business plan and overbook all sailings. There is nothing lost, except some minor administrative expenses, when people cancel. However, when a cruise line cancels an entire ship then they are causing major hardship on most people on the cruise; whether because of non-refundable airfare, vacation time that had to be approved ahead of time, kids school break schedule, etc. And let's keep in mind, the cruise line exists because it pleases customers, not the other way around.

As far as waiting to book your airfare. I purchased my tickets for my spring break cruise about a month ago. Two days later the tickets went up by $155 per person. During peak travel periods it's not feasable to wait until final payment. I have purchased insurance, so that at least wouldn't affect me.

Orcrone

September 29th, 2004, 01:30 PM

"If a Cruise, Cruisetour or HAL Land Trip is cancelled before commencement, you will be entitled, as your exclusive remedy, to receive the applicable Refund Amount."

-daveDave,

Unless I'm missing something they can cancel while you're standing on the pier. It says "cancelled before commencement", not "cancelled before final payment". Am I missing something?

LAFFNVEGAS

September 29th, 2004, 01:35 PM

Orcrone

September 29th, 2004, 01:50 PM

I am a very PRO HAL Fan but I have to admit this would upset me. I book quite a bit in advance and if I need to fly farther than the West Coast I purchase my airline tickets immediately with my United miles because they tend to sell out quickly. If HAL canceled my cruise it would cost me $200 just to get my miles back. This canceling on HAL's part really does seem unfair. Unfortuately I don't see a good way to resolve and I can see both sides.Lisa,

I can see no 'perfect' way to resolve, but I can see some good ways. They would involve:

Allow passengers to rebook on another cruise, in the same category, for no more than they paid for the cancelled cruise.
Larger shipboard credit to start with (about $200 per person). As one poster pointed out they give away $50 pp shipboard credits for calling your TA and giving them a four digit number.
Make allowances for airline change fees by increasing shipboard credit. This would only be done with proof of fee paid.
I realize there will be those who say that HAL shouldn't be involved in the airfare. However, it is HAL that is choosing to inconvenience people for profit, and this would be a good way to keep some of the customers that they will invariably lose for a lifetime.

lipoppop

September 29th, 2004, 02:11 PM

According to the contract (http://www.hollandamerica.com/policies/cruise.do):

..."

"5. Change in Itinerary/Cancellation: (a) Although we will use our best efforts to provide you with the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or HAL Land Trips, situations may occur which require that changes be made. By way of example only..." [lists dozens of possibilities]

-dave

Thanks Dave, I went to the URL you posted. I wasn't able to find the information on the HAL site beforehand.

I read the list of reasons as to cancellation and change. They all relate to situations that are beyond HAL's control or are done for safety reasons.

Nowhere can I deduce that cancellation to use the vessel for another set of customers via a charter is appropriate. Since I am not a lawyer I cannot comment on legal issues but my common sense says cancelling cruise reservations to use the vessel for other financial renumeration is questionable.

Jay aka lipoppop

ps. How did you navigate the web site to find the policy statement?

CHRIS3169

September 29th, 2004, 02:35 PM

I am new to this cruising thing!!!!!! I can't wait! I have just booked a May 7th trip and purchased airfare separately due to we are in Louisville and May 7th is the DERBY! So which insurance is good to protect our airfare reimbursement if something happens? It is my understanding that you have a week or two to add the insurance to cover pre-esixting and then you should have it by final payment. Is this correct or is there a better way?

I feel terrible for the passengers on this ship. I definitely know how difficult scheduling time is with children.

Thank you and I hope it was okay to ask this on this thread!
Christy:)

Orcrone

September 29th, 2004, 02:44 PM

Christy,

If you go to http://www.insuremytrip.com you can do comparison shopping of many companies. Most have a waiver of pre-existing conditions if you purchase within 7 - 21 days of downpayment on the cruise. Once again, the website will list that information also.

Kami's pal

September 29th, 2004, 02:56 PM

I've only travelled with HAL once, Noordam, and I liked the ship, the food, the service, the other passengers, the itinerary. I saw no remarkable differences between my previous cruises on RCCL, Celebrity, and NCL. Crystal is a little better for me.

BUT, (as Dr. Phil says, "after but, ignore all the previous words") I cruised May 17, '04, just after the new contracts with crew were implemented. The buzz on the ship was all about this new policy. I was seated with 3 couples who had 60 cruises with HAL between them. They were very loyal HAL customers. They and others that I chatted with during the 2 weeks were very concerned that since HAL had been bought by Carnival, the service and ambiance would deteriorate.

I've posted before my opinion about the new pooling policy, so won't repeat that. Now, I'm reading from other HAL cruisers that not only has service aboard ship changed, but that customer service has changed too. So, to all long time HAL customers who have had 5 months to evaluate changes since new owners, is this true? Is HAL now just another big, money grabbing, impersonal corporation?

Lefty Bob

September 29th, 2004, 03:11 PM

The key words are -"situations" and "require".

Is a charter an acceptible situation and is it a requirement? Whose requirement?

Lefty Bob

RuthC

September 29th, 2004, 03:29 PM

So, to all long time HAL customers who have had 5 months to evaluate changes since new owners, is this true? Is HAL now just another big, money grabbing, impersonal corporation?:confused: :confused: :confused:
What "new" owners? Carnival bought HAL back in 1989. That's a full fifteen years ago!

Kami's pal

September 29th, 2004, 03:37 PM

Now really puzzled. Why the new policy implemented in May, '04?

And has HAL changed since that policy was implemented?

Cruiseoften

September 29th, 2004, 04:02 PM

Like "svnelvn" I would be a very unhappy camper if my cruise had been canceled. However, it is 6 months way and as I understand it, HAL has made a reasonable offer for another cruise - Have your or your TA contacted HAL re reimbursement for changing your air? Giving you a full refund and a reasonable cruise credit seems fair to me. Please don't black list and bad mouth the Line until you've asked and been refused compensation.

Bad as the cancelation is, have you read what Carnival did to passengers - passengers booked for over a year and, as I recall, a couple of large groups.
It was well documented and argued about on this board not too long ago Perhpas Walt or someone can put their finger on it and post a link - sorry I haven't the time to do a search right now

Fingers crossed that you and your TA can come up with an enjoyable alternative.

Kami's Pal - you're way off topic!

gizmo

September 29th, 2004, 04:12 PM

Bad as the cancelation is, have you read what Carnival did to passengers - passengers booked for over a year and, as I recall, a couple of large groups.
It was well documented and argued about on this board not too long ago Perhpas Walt or someone can put their finger on it and post a link - sorry I haven't the time to do a search right now

I believe this issue was overbooking. Seems like Carnival overbooked and there were some groups that got bumped. I think the cruise was out of Baltimore.

Cerinda

September 29th, 2004, 04:53 PM

Just off the phone with my TA; she's calling HAL back to apply more pressure.

As of right now, HAL is offering the five of us A TOTAL of $200 shipboard credit (that is, $50 each for the four full-fare pax booked in the two S cabins and nothing for the fifth) on a future cruise. They are offering NO DEAL, no discount, no upgrade, no compensation, no special consideration on either a replacement or any future cruise.

A replacement is almost beside the point: there are virtually no HAL cabins available for 3/19 - 26 or 3/20 - 27.

A future cruise on HAL? Only an extraordinary value on an extraordinary itinerary could overcome the poor impression HAL has made on us so far.

dakrewser

September 29th, 2004, 05:17 PM

Nowhere can I deduce that cancellation to use the vessel for another set of customers via a charter is appropriate. Since I am not a lawyer I cannot comment on legal issues but my common sense says cancelling cruise reservations to use the vessel for other financial renumeration is questionable.

ps. How did you navigate the web site to find the policy statement?
From the top menu, choose "For Booked Guests". Then "Planning & Advice". THen, under "Before you go", click on Cruise & Cruisetour contract.

Note that the list they give are explicitly stated as examples ("By way of example only...").

-dave

lipoppop

September 29th, 2004, 05:40 PM

From the top menu, choose "For Booked Guests". Then "Planning & Advice". THen, under "Before you go", click on Cruise & Cruisetour contract.

Note that the list they give are explicitly stated as examples ("By way of example only...").

-dave

Dave, I have inserted the totality of the paragraph below.

5. Change in Itinerary/Cancellation: (a) Although we will use our best efforts to provide you with the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or HAL Land Trips, situations may occur which require that changes be made. By way of example only, we may adjust itineraries and schedules, delay departures or arrivals, or cancel a Cruise, Cruisetour or HAL Land Trip, due to casualty, weather, labor problems, the need to render assistance to others, governmental or insurer directives, passenger or employee injury or illness, schedule delays or changes by third parties, repair and maintenance requirements, fuel or other shortages, or damage to the Ship, other means of transportation, roads, tracks, bridges, docks, equipment or machinery. Furthermore, the Master of the Ship or of any other vessel as well as the operator of any other means of transportation may, in his/her sole discretion, elect not to proceed in the ordinary course. Consequently, we cannot guarantee the itinerary of the Cruise, Cruisetour or any HAL Land Trip (including time of sailing from or arrival at any port or that all ports will, in fact, be called at, or that all places on your Cruisetour or HAL Land Trip will be visited). We reserve the right to provide you with alternative transportation whenever the Cruise, Cruisetour or HAL Land Trip is unable to proceed or be completed in the ordinary course or, in the case of hotels, to substitute facilities of similar category in cases where the planned hotel is unavailable due to overbooking or otherwise.

Please note the sentence "(a) Although we will use our best efforts to provide you with the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or HAL Land Trips, situations may occur which require that changes be made" and especially the words "we will use our best efforts" and "situations may occur which require that changes be made."

Does cancelling a cruise so that the vessel can be used for a charter fit in that context? Is a charter a "situation may occur?" And my favorite "we will use our best efforts to provide you... is an oxymoron when the best effort is to cancel your cruise.

Dave, do you personally think the cancellation is consistent with the stated policy?

Have a good day, Jay

svnelvn

September 29th, 2004, 05:48 PM

We were only offered a $50 per person credit if we booked another cruise for the same time. The airfare isn't an issue because our online agency booked it through HAL. The issue is courtesy~my dh was not given an explanation or an apology~the only other cruise to the Mexican Rivera was 10 days and I only have a 7 day break from work~so that was not an option, but I feel sure we would have had to pay the price difference. I'm still disappointed & despressed, but~life's too short to give myself a ulcer over this! Right now I'm researching other trips!

dakrewser

September 29th, 2004, 06:14 PM

Dave, do you personally think the cancellation is consistent with the stated policy?

Yeah. Someone willing to pony up the cash to rent out the entire ship is certainly a "situation". This far out, it's unlikely that more than a few (if any) passengers have paid in full. To the bean counters, that's a situation that requires the cancellation!

Note that this is not a defense of bean counters (who rank just ahead of marketing people in my estimation), but an explanation of The Way They Think. :rolleyes:

Orcrone

September 30th, 2004, 08:07 AM

Yeah. Someone willing to pony up the cash to rent out the entire ship is certainly a "situation". This far out, it's unlikely that more than a few (if any) passengers have paid in full. To the bean counters, that's a situation that requires the cancellation!

Note that this is not a defense of bean counters (who rank just ahead of marketing people in my estimation), but an explanation of The Way They Think. :rolleyes:Unfortunately Dave, that is the way they think. And I can certainly understand if Cerinda and all the others involved never booked with HAL again.

Here's an idea. They should all get together and select a cruise that is still a long time away so that the ship is empty. Then they should book as many cabins as possible on the ship, starting with the penthouse and working their way down in price. Book directly with HAL as the prices are higher and we wouldn't want to make extra work for the TAs. Then two days before final payment is due everyone should inform HAL that they wish to cancel their cruise. Let them be stuck with a mainly empty ship with all the expensive rooms available 76 days before sailing.:eek:

Oh well, the PAX gave them plenty of notice.:D

Krazy Kruizers

September 30th, 2004, 08:16 AM

Only problem is, if we all start to plot which cruise we all want to book and then cancel, HAL will know about it since HAL does read these boards.

peaches from georgia

September 30th, 2004, 08:38 AM

Only problem is, if we all start to plot which cruise we all want to book and then cancel, HAL will know about it since HAL does read these boards.

So what if they do read these boards? HAL can hardly refuse every early booking that is made for that cruise and then couldn't refuse to cancel w/ deposit refund before final payment. :D

Orcrone

September 30th, 2004, 08:57 AM

Only problem is, if we all start to plot which cruise we all want to book and then cancel, HAL will know about it since HAL does read these boards.
We do the planning via e-mail and schedule when everyone books. This way we don't have a run on rooms all at once.:D

sail7seas

September 30th, 2004, 10:11 AM

Orcrone

September 30th, 2004, 10:38 AM

How many folks will want to tie up deposit funds on a cruise they know they will not be taking? Won't they want to use that money for everything/anything else includ9ing a "REAL" booking??

HAL will have the use of ALOT of our money for alot of months under that 'scheme'. :eek: But it's good you are thinking about sending a message.I obviously doubt anyone is going to start a grass roots movement to do this, but it's fun thinking about it.:D

Of course maybe I'm just saying this to throw HAL off our tracks.:p

If they really read these boards I think I can forget about any upgrades in the future.:(

luv2cruise99

September 30th, 2004, 10:58 AM

Cancelling a cruise so that they can charter the ship does not sound like they are using their "best efforts to provide you with the Cruise" as stated in their contract (relative paragraph quoted below). Also, their long list of example reasons for cancelling include only things that are totally out of their control (weather, labor problems, illness, etc.). Wouldn't it be more honest of them to include in their contract "so that we can charter the ship and make more money" as a cancellation reason?

Change in Itinerary/Cancellation: (a) Although we will use our best efforts to provide you with the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or HAL Land Trips, situations may occur which require that changes be made. By way of example only, we may adjust itineraries and schedules, delay departures or arrivals, or cancel a Cruise, Cruisetour or HAL Land Trip, due to casualty, weather, labor problems, the need to render assistance to others, governmental or insurer directives, passenger or employee injury or illness, schedule delays or changes by third parties, repair and maintenance requirements, fuel or other shortages, or damage to the Ship, other means of transportation, roads, tracks, bridges, docks, equipment or machinery...