The Big Change from Mr. Meadows and HAL

[uncialman]

The real news in the article from another thread by Mr. Meadows is that on S class, R class and V class ships a lot of what traditional HAL fans have grown to love will be gone or drastically changed.

The Java Cafe's will be gone and the Wajang theatre will be replaced with a "culinary arts forum" in the spirit of Iron Chef etc. On S class ships, The Library, Card Room, and puzzle corner will be gutted for the new "Explorations Cafe" with a pay per cup fancy coffee service, fee - based instruction in arts and crafts and fee based computers. The same will be done in the R and V class ships with the gutting of the Half Moon, puzzle corner and Erasmus Library ($$).

On the back of each ship's funnel area, a kiddie water-wonderland will be added in. Teen hangout centers and kiddie areas will be beefed up. All cabins will also be fitted with DVD players, with rentals of DVD's to follow ($$).

As has been noted by Rev. Neal and others, pop-rock music will be played in all hallways and pools (at times, much too loudly) to apparently attract a 'younger' crowd (funny, when you go into a local bagel or coffee shop populated by people in their 20's, jazz and classical seems to be all the rage). It seems that instead of providing a relaxing, quiet atmosphere, HAL is intent on ramming a particular music style down everyone's throat; even though MP3's and I -pods are the way to go nowadays and people can choose their *own* taste in music.

All previous spa ammenities will now be fee based. No more free saunas and steam rooms: welcome to the Greenhouse spa ($$).

All of these changes are based in a desire to add revenue for the company and to assist the cruiser in departing from their hard earned cash. One result is that cruising will no longer be "all inclusive" and the tradition of HAL will be changed in a mere year or two. The other result, sadly, is that HAL will begin to resemble NCL and other 'contemporary' lines and will effectively ushure *itself* out of the premium cruise industry.

It is sad: I really loved the traditional HAL experience. I pray that someone at corporate will awake before HAL loses it's identity and position in the market. Celebrity is willing and waiting to take HAL's place...

[jhannah]

So, is this an effort to try to become all things to all people? It's not the best move, IMO, since they'll alienate some people in an effort to attract different people.

[uncialman]

jhannah stated:

So, is this an effort to try to become all things to all people? It's not the best move, IMO, since they'll alienate some people in an effort to attract different people.

uncialman replies:

jhannah, your understanding of the situation is right on target (and I really, really hope HAL is listening in as they usually do). Let's put it this way: I am in my mid-thirties and I prefer the old HAL. Why? because they offered exactly what my young wife and I enjoy: an un-hurried, un-crowded no-frills cruise vacation. There are tremendous amount of folks that are just like me out there that don't want a loud, pulsating atmosphere for their cruise dollar. The old HAL, Celebrity offered this type of experience (relaxation) in the premium category without paying the major dinero that it would take to cruise Crystal, Cunard, and Radisson. Celebrity, at this point and time, is trying to offer more for less and is succeeding. Also, if a money-wise person were to sit down and add up the costs on a 7 day Caribbean on Crystal as compared to HAL, they might find that after all of the extra fees that HAL is throwing in nowadays that Crystal offers a superior product for not a whole lot more.

So what would be the result of all these changes? IMHO, a diminished cruise base of loyal HAL cruisers and a diluted HAL product that her devotees will not recognize. Celebrity is just sitting back and waiting for the new HAL marketing group to 'blow it'.

Secondly, HAL is trying to lure groups on to her ships. May I ask where exactly are they going to be able to fit groups of 100 - 150 on the S, R, and Volendam class ships? If you tie-up the former wajang with cooking shows and then try to roll out the movie screen at night, and, the HMC room is now a latte bar, where will the groups go? Where will they give their presentations.

There is an extreme lack of forethought in these moves by HAL and Mr. Meadows.

[garydm]

One can just hope that someone at HAL is reading all this. You are right on. We have enjoyed HAL alot and do 3-4 cruises a year, but seeing the direction they are taking we have recently done The World, Crystal, and have Silversea set for December. And, yes, HAL in February for another try. We have found that the more inclusive lines are often not much more at all in cost if you shop for bargains. We have or are doing the other lines cited for within 110% of comparable on HAL because we are flexible with our time and itineraries.

If the approach outlined by the new marketing guy is implemented, I think we are outta here!

Gary

[uncialman]

garydm,

I think that both you and I would both state that we are two people that really love Holland America Line and hope that they can truly (without be 'nuanced') state that they are "maintaining a tradition of excellence." We want success at HAL, but not flash in the pan success - success that is tried and true. Mr. Meadows should not be looking at what Carnival and RCI are doing for their base, but instead should be looking at what Celebrity is doing right with the base that the two share and trying to either keep pace or surpass them.

Finney is alive and well; and his methods still don't work in the long run...

[Windrunner I]

The real news in the article from another thread by Mr. Meadows is that on S class, R class and V class ships a lot of what traditional HAL fans have grown to love will be gone or drastically changed.

All of these changes are based in a desire to add revenue for the company and to assist the cruiser in departing from their hard earned cash. One result is that cruising will no longer be "all inclusive" and the tradition of HAL will be changed in a mere year or two. The other result, sadly, is that HAL will begin to resemble NCL and other 'contemporary' lines and will effectively ushure *itself* out of the premium cruise industry.

It is sad: I really loved the traditional HAL experience. I pray that someone at corporate will awake before HAL loses it's identity and position in the market. Celebrity is willing and waiting to take HAL's place...

The problem is that HAL has already lost its identity and its been lost for some time. They're the Oldsmobile of the cruise industry. Bland and anonymous. If HAL is to survive, they have to keep up with the times and a lot of the components of the 'traditional' HAL experience are what makes it appealing to the wheelchair and walker set. This doesn't allow them to keep pace with the likes of Celebrity and Princess.

The challenge they are going to face is how to balance the 'new, hipp-er, enhanced HAL' with the traditional elements to keep the older pax satisfied while attracting younger ones. This means trying to be all things to all people, which in the end, has failed them in the past. If they're going to become 'young and hip', they just need to jump in with both feet and do it. Take a look at Cadillac, they've pretty much abandoned the blue-hair set and have made great strides in attracting younger customers. I'm living proof of that and they've even managed to snag my 32 year old; he drives a Cadillac too.

I am eager to see what they come up with as meadows did an incredible job with Seabourn, but unless they improve their food and service, they're just another bland, wanna-be hip cruise line.

[Krazy Kruizers]

From what I have read about Mr. Meadows and all these new "things" he wants to do for HAL, it sounds as though many of we old traditional people will soon be looking for another cruise line.

Water slides - that's carnival.

No more libraries?? - Bad news there.

Card rooms gone??? - Too many times the organized bridge players have taken over that room for hours and you can't even get a table to play your own games. So no loss there.

Loud music in the hallways - pop music - we won't like that. DH takes a nap every afternoon - now there will be loud music to keep him awake?

We have a few more cruises already booked on HAL, but as the months go by and we cruise on the various ships, we will be watching to see what changes take place and whether or not we are going to like them. Right now it sounds as though we will be looking to cruise Crystal or Cunard.

[MandyGirl]

jhannah, your understanding of the situation is right on target (and I really, really hope HAL is listening in as they usually do). Let's put it this way: I am in my mid-thirties and I prefer the old HAL. Why? because they offered exactly what my young wife and I enjoy: an un-hurried, un-crowded no-frills cruise vacation. There are tremendous amount of folks that are just like me out there that don't want a loud, pulsating atmosphere for their cruise dollar.
You're not the only 30-something that feels that way...

My husband and I are ages 30/31 and also chose HAL last year because we wanted a relaxing Caribbean vacation. I teach about 145 twelve-year-olds every day and although I love my students, I need a laid-back relaxing vacation when I'm able to take one (which is only when school is out). It is the "old HAL" that enticed us to try them initially as well as book our very next cruise with them again (upcoming in November).

The HAL described in the original post does not seem to be a cruiseline I want to "vacation" with in the future. :( Our only experiences have been with Celebrity, Norwegian, and HAL.

[Himself]

I think it would be better to try it on one of the S Class ships first and maybe on one of The Vista class and one of the Rotterdam class ships to see how these are recieved by the pax who are "HAL" regulars.
Himself

[anngie]

We sailed on the Carnival Glory this year and this sounds like Hal is making changes to be more like the Glory and other Carnival ships. I hate to hear this, especially about the library and the music. The Glory has a library but it is not as large or nice as the HAL ships that we have sailed on and is not as well tended. I had to go to the Information desk to get someone to open it. There were no regular library hours.

[uncialman]

Windrunner I stated:

The problem is that HAL has already lost its identity and its been lost for some time. They're the Oldsmobile of the cruise industry. Bland and anonymous. If HAL is to survive, they have to keep up with the times and a lot of the components of the 'traditional' HAL experience are what makes it appealing to the wheelchair and walker set. This doesn't allow them to keep pace with the likes of Celebrity and Princess.

uncialman replies:

I totally disagree on the premise of your argumentation, Windrunner. I am 35 yrs old and the overwhelming majority of my clients (who fall into the same age range) and large groups, greatly prefer what could be considered 'the old HAL' in comparison to the new. Bland? Hardly. The old HAL exudes sophistication, class, comfort, roominess and a classical ambiance that is not currently being built upon. Secondly, Celebrity is not doing these things in particular to their ships or to their services as of yet, in fact, they are making the experience more pristine. Are wine tastings and cooking classes being offered at Celebrity? Yes, but not at the expense of treasured public spaces and traditional offerings (Java Cafe).

Windjammer I asserted:

The challenge they are going to face is how to balance the 'new, hipp-er, enhanced HAL' with the traditional elements to keep the older pax satisfied while attracting younger ones. This means trying to be all things to all people, which in the end, has failed them in the past. If they're going to become 'young and hip', they just need to jump in with both feet and do it. Take a look at Cadillac, they've pretty much abandoned the blue-hair set and have made great strides in attracting younger customers. I'm living proof of that and they've even managed to snag my 32 year old; he drives a Cadillac too.

Mike replies:

With all kindness, I believe that this analogy fails. As a 35yr old active male, I drive a Buick Regal. Why? Because I like the comfort, performance, and style of the Regal. Given the choice, would I want a Camaro? No, I chose the Regal and I choose it even though it costs me more money than a Camaro. To be a Premium cruise product, however, it is not as much catering to an age as it is to a lifestyle. Many, many young folks like me prefer the quite sophistication and Classic cruise experience that HAL was offering. With this new campaign, however, Mr. Meadows is creating an overhaul to the traditional HAL product that will lead many young HAL devotees to find another product. You did correctly point out that HAL is attempting to be all things to all people. In effect, I believe that the correct analogy is that they ended up becoming more of a Dodge Caravan. Excelling and nothing and not particularly thrilling their base.

Windjammer I states:

I am eager to see what they come up with as meadows did an incredible job with Seabourn, but unless they improve their food and service, they're just another bland, wanna-be hip cruise line.

Mike replies:

The two points that you bring to the table are the two things that I think they should be spending their money on: food and service. While my back will certainly appreciate the pillow top beds, a lot of the other changes are needless and are not the reason that HAL has had a consistent cruise base for years on end. I congratuate Mr. Meadows for what he has done with Seabourn, but I think he is making some huge fundamental errors in his approach to HAL. A peson can do a great job in one capacity and then just totally misunderstand and misapply their skills in another. The most important aspect of this is what HAL execs should be asking themselves:"do we want to internally compete with our other WLC brands (Princess, Costa, Carnival) or do we want to compete with Celebrity?" By the actions that Mr. Meadows has taken thus far, it appears that he is marketing HAL right out of the premium market and is allowing Celebrity to soley occupy that category.

You are absolutely correct in this area, Windjammer: instead of improving the dining room food and service that has been needing attention, they are attempting to reposition themselves in an already crowded 'contemporary' cruise market.

Once again, sad...

[HeatherInFlorida]

uncialman, I really appreciate your insight and expertise on this thread. It is most informative and enlightening. I had so loved the HAL of old and am so disappointed to read of these changes.

When booking our October 2005 cruise through the Panama Canal I was crushed that the cost on HAL was about $3000 over Celebrity for the exact itinerary in the same category. Having been extremely happy on past cruises with Celebrity, I booked it but still felt disappointment that we were not going to have the HAL experience we have loved.

I'm now beginning to think we may have made the right choice after all! Thanks again for this information ... threads like these are one of the big reasons I keep coming back to these Boards.

[uncialman]

You're not the only 30-something that feels that way...

My husband and I are ages 30/31 and also chose HAL last year because we wanted a relaxing Caribbean vacation. I teach about 145 twelve-year-olds every day and although I love my students, I need a laid-back relaxing vacation when I'm able to take one (which is only when school is out). It is the "old HAL" that enticed us to try them initially as well as book our very next cruise with them again (upcoming in November).

The HAL described in the original post does not seem to be a cruiseline I want to "vacation" with in the future. :( Our only experiences have been with Celebrity, Norwegian, and HAL.

Mandy,

You are exactly in the same demographic that my wife and I are a part of!! We don't want hussle and bussle or a million diversions while on board a ship for our cruise vacation: we enjoy classic, traditional cruising.

Secondly, the clients that I have that have large groups previously were major HAL devotees. But after experiencing some changes that willl be occurring on their last cruises, they have asked to try Celebrity or another cruise line. Believe me, it pains me to do this. Comparing apples to apples, the groups (and me personally) preferred the old HAL over the Celebrity product (more intimate, great group meeting space, fantastic service, big cabins, quiet/laidback atmosphere, no nickle and diming) and were loyal to them for several years. This request came with no prodding on my part, but from the group leaders themselves.

What do upper middle class 30ish couples want on their much anticipated cruise vacations? Well, it differs from couple to couple. I know, however, that there are many of us that preferred the unobtrusive sophistication that HAL was none for. If folks want a 24 hour 'ocean rave' or 'family fun park', there are plenty of cruise lines that fit the bill.

Once again, sad...

[Randyk47]

This is all really disappointing news. I'm actually at a loss for words to describe how I feel. Things change and it's hard sometimes to accept those changes. If indeed HAL goes this way then trying Celebrity in March is making more and more sense as we try other lines to see where we'll find the cruise experience we grew to love on HAL. Also want to add that we had exactly the same experience as Heather in terms of finding a Panama Canal cruise. It came down to a 10 day from Ft Lauderdale on HAL or a 12 day from Galveston on Celebrity. Even without the airfare (we can drive to Galveston) there still was a significant difference between HAL and Celebrity for about the same accommodations.

[Pudgesmom]

I agree with many of these comments. My 40-something husband and I loved HAL, and so did our two children and 60-something grandparents on our Statendam Alaska cruise. In fact, we're headed to the Caribbean without the family in a couple weeks on HAL. We did Carnival once, and I'd rather stay home than be subjected to that experience again.

I, for one, would pay a little more to keep the service levels and have good food on a laid-back cruise experience that is not offered by the "contemporary" lines.

On the other hand, not all change is bad. I'm glad I don't have the job of making these decisions.

Beth

[Starr Mtn]

Agree with Krazy Kruizers -- This is disappointing news. Probably our currently booked cruise will be our last on HAL. And this is after 100 plus days of enjoying HAL cruises! They have already begun eliminating perks from the full Suites - although the price stays high.

Pop-rock music would be the last straw!

Guess we'll continue cruising with Radisson and Crystal.

[joannie]

Hate to say it, but one would believe Holland's core clients are dying off. They have a marketing issue of how to bring in new younger clients in addition to the ones they already have which are not sufficent in total to make up for the ones going to the big Holland ship in the sky.

Joannie

[CrabbyHarper]

We cruised HAL for the first time in April 2004. We chose HAL because we wanted a smaller ship, a classier ship and a less razzle-dazzle experience. We also liked the departure from Norfolk - a place we could drive to. At one point in the cruise, DH asked me: "Do you see anything about HAL that exceeds what we have experienced on our two Celebrity cruises?" I had to answer in the negative.

We are booked again on the Maasdam in Nov, giving HAL another try. I hope that the piped in music - rock or otherwise - will not occur until after the cruise. As a practicing musician I absolutely HATE all the canned music that permeates everything including the local supermarket! The thought of piped in rock music makes me really "crabby".

DH and I are just in the pre-retirement age (62 and 60), and have some discretionary time and money to vacation how we like (After a lifetime of little time and no money!) We just got back from a marvelous tour of Hawaii with Tauck - it was pricey but worth every dollar. If cruising doesn't meet our expectations there are lots of other vacation options out there.

After our working years of cruising occasionally on RCI - four to a cabin - we had hoped to become loyal HAL fans, but at this point it doesn't look good. Depending on what happens on the Maasdam in November, we may be cruising the premium lines or going on land-based tours.

DH and I produce small consumer expos for certain niche markets. One of the things that has made our events successful is that we have and hold to a particular focus. The few times we have tried to expand our focus we have gotten hit hard in the wallet. Seems to me like HAL is trying to be everything to everyone and that loses HALs special appeal to folks like us. OK- they have a right to run their company in the way they think best - but we have a right to make other vacation choices.

[Kami's pal]

From what I have read about Mr. Meadows and all these new "things" he wants to do for HAL, it sounds as though many of we old traditional people will soon be looking for another cruise line.

Water slides - that's carnival.

No more libraries?? - Bad news there.

Card rooms gone??? - Too many times the organized bridge players have taken over that room for hours and you can't even get a table to play your own games. So no loss there.

Loud music in the hallways - pop music - we won't like that. DH takes a nap every afternoon - now there will be loud music to keep him awake?

We have a few more cruises already booked on HAL, but as the months go by and we cruise on the various ships, we will be watching to see what changes take place and whether or not we are going to like them. Right now it sounds as though we will be looking to cruise Crystal or Cunard.





Ditto

[jan7487]

And we DITTO your DITTO!. We started with HA in 1996, have done 2 or 3 cruises a year, and until now have never seen a reason to try another cruiseline. My husband's comment after the first cruise was that it exceded his expectations and that it was a civilised but not stuffy experience. That has remained mostly true, for us, to this day.

How sad to think that this cruiseline, that has been both classic and classy, is now going to play pop-rock in the halls and turn the lovely libraries into dollar producing coffee houses.

We have a 30 day cruise in January---I hate to think that it might be our last with what has been a fine company.

Janet

[jima53]

My first Hal cruise is in two weeks. A cruise we have waited about 15 months for. We have experienced one short cruise on Carnival on the Miracle to satisfy our urge when we got antsy about the long wait. What we experience on this upcoming cruise will definitely shape our future bookings. We are mid 50's, don't care about rock music, we have ipods filled with country music.....don't need to be stimulated by rock climbing, movies on the aft pool areas, guess we just aren't really physically active people. We would like to have some nice gourmet coffee and teas with nice pastries. We didn't mind paying extra for this. We want to just relax and be pampered. After watch Hal all this time I'm wondering just how deluded the benefits of a Cat. s suite will be compared to a year ago. That Bermuda cruise in the future is looking better all the time rather than another carribbean cruise when we compare prices and services. Come on Hal don't let us down, we want to enjoy your product,,, can you deliver it to us.

Jim

[uncialman]

Hey folks,

I think that jan7487 hit it right on the head about the coffee houses. When my wife and I frist cruised HAL back 4 years ago or so, we were so impressed by what value we received for our cruise fare. We don't mind paying a bit extra during our booking phase if we aren't going to be nickle and dimed to death on the ship itself. With the elimination of the Java Cafe, HAL will be doing away with one of the major attractions that my wife and I enjoyed with our HAL voyages. Secondly, to start to charge for items on spas that were not previously charged will only succeed in alienating many folks from those services and will result in leaving them with a bad taste in their mouths.

Secondly, those that are seeking a premium cruising experience are not all "dying off." In truth, more seniors cruise Carnival than any other line. The fact of the matter is that people that want a classic cruise experience extend beyond age and financial demographics: different people like different things. With the changes that Mr. Meadows has proposed, however, we will have only one choice if we wish to find a traditional cruise experience in the premium market: Celebrity.

Once again, I want it to be known that I truly love the old HAL product; I just would like to preserve what we love so much about it!

[bepsf]

Uncialman - I'm not finding the source of that article - where was it published? I did find the HAL PR statement, and it doesn't mention some of the things you have described...

Extra charge coffees? Vista Class ships have been charging extra for premium coffee's in the Windjammer Cafe's since Zuiderdam. (for alot less than your local Starbucks, I might add) The Java Cafe still serves hot tea and regular coffees for free. Nothing new, just making the line consistent.

Pop Music in the corridors? Hmmm - I'll take that one w/ a grain of salt. As much as I love listening to Ella Fitzgerald, 7 days of her over and over and over again, 24/7 in the Lido on the Amsterdam a couple weeks ago was a bit much...

Turning the Wajang into a Culinary Arts exhibition hall? Not a bad idea if they can do it w/out losing the movie theatre/meeting room aspect, which I suspect they can because there's alot of unused space behind those moviescreen walls. The Wajang sits empty and unused for hours at a time every day & with movies 24/7 on your stateroom televisions and DVD players, why not make the space more usable?

Changing the ship's library into a computer lab? Nowadays w/ modern media the way it is, it makes sense to combine the two - having computer rooms lined w/ books and comfy chairs - they are both quiet reading-type activities, so why not? Every time I'm in the library, the attending staff person has been on their own laptop anyway - and the web-cafe users off the atrium are always inundated w/ noisy people wandering past...

The waterfall is going to be in the expanded Club HAL area - it will not be in a central/featured part of the ship and you need never see it. If it helps keep the kids happy so that they are not bored out of their minds playing on the elevators or doing cannonballs in the adult pool, don't you agree that may possibly be a good thing?

The S-Class ships have such space constraints that HAL can't possibly keep rooms that are underutilized and also keep up with amenities of newer ships. Card players can still play - but why not in public areas like the Lido or open seating areas around the Atruim? Groups can still meet in the Wajang - they may just have to schedule around other events that are open to the whole ship or choose the larger HAL ships that will still have more space available to them.

Celebrity describes culinary arts programs, extra-charge spa programs and large childrens programs for their ships - why whouldn't HAL have them too?

The line needs to keep the smaller/older ships more attractive & in demand to keep their ticket prices from falling and loosing profitability - and this is one way how. If HAL doesn't maintain profitability, people loose jobs and we loose choices like Premier, Rennaissance, Norwegian America, Sitmar and Royal Viking...

[Windrunner I]

I used to love the HAL product until the advent of the Vista Class ships. While the ships themselves are stunning (IMO), they're just too large and mass market. We always loved the S-Class, and still do, but I've found that food and service levels have deteriorated greatly. Our most recent cruise was a huge disappointment which was only made greater by our most recent (non-HAL) cruise experiences.

From my recent Celebrity experiences, they've done quite a nice job of brining the food and service back up and they now include a lot of nice, thoughtful touches and unlike HAL, the product and ships have personality. I shyed away from Celebrity after the Royal Caribbean takeover, but I'm a fan once again! And the other two cruise lines I've found I really, really enjoy much more than HAL are Crystal and Oceania. So it looks like there's no HAL for me in the future now that I've found Celebrity, Crystal and Oceania.

[RuthC]

I agree that HAL changes seem to have increased since the dawn of the Vista-class---I certainly prefer the S-class and her near-sisters.
If HAL is now trying to change the S/R/V demographic to that of the Vista passenger it will could cause her traditional passenger base to look elsewhere.

The problem with those other lines mentioned is their treatment of the solo cruiser. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears we are not courted by those other lines the way HAL does. The single-supplement on HAL is reasonable in comparison; there is a guaranteed share program on HAL; there are gentlemen hosts on cruises longer than ten days.
If the other lines want to attract the traditional HAL cruiser they have to understand that many of us are single---or (sadly) will be single before our cruising days are over.

I have the time, money and inclination to cruise. And I ain't dead yet!
I just want a cruiseline that wants me. For years now that's been HAL. I hope Mr Meadows realizes I'm not the only one.

[garydm]

We were on Crystal last month and loved it. If you want to move 180 degrees from the direction HAL is moving-i.e. complimentary specialty coffees, soft drinks, top quality entertainment, wonderful service, etc. then try Crystal. Look for the bargains, and it does not cost that much more. We still like HAL and have another cruise booked for early 2005, but for our group we are putting together for Fall 2005, it looks like Crystal.

Re: the single cruiser, it is my understanding that on some Crystal cruises, the single supplement charge is only 110%, and there were several male hosts on board.

Gary

[Cruiseoften]

Uncialman - I'm not finding the source of that article - where was it published? I did find the HAL PR statement, and it doesn't mention some of the things you have described...

Extra charge coffees? Vista Class ships have been charging extra for premium coffee's in the Windjammer Cafe's since Zuiderdam. (for alot less than your local Starbucks, I might add) The Java Cafe still serves hot tea and regular coffees for free. Nothing new, just making the line consistent.

Pop Music in the corridors? Hmmm - I'll take that one w/ a grain of salt. As much as I love listening to Ella Fitzgerald, 7 days of her over and over and over again, 24/7 in the Lido on the Amsterdam a couple weeks ago was a bit much...

Turning the Wajang into a Culinary Arts exhibition hall? Not a bad idea if they can do it w/out losing the movie theatre/meeting room aspect, which I suspect they can because there's alot of unused space behind those moviescreen walls. The Wajang sits empty and unused for hours at a time every day & with movies 24/7 on your stateroom televisions and DVD players, why not make the space more usable?

Changing the ship's library into a computer lab? Nowadays w/ modern media the way it is, it makes sense to combine the two - having computer rooms lined w/ books and comfy chairs - they are both quiet reading-type activities, so why not? Every time I'm in the library, the attending staff person has been on their own laptop anyway - and the web-cafe users off the atrium are always inundated w/ noisy people wandering past...

The waterfall is going to be in the expanded Club HAL area - it will not be in a central/featured part of the ship and you need never see it. If it helps keep the kids happy so that they are not bored out of their minds playing on the elevators or doing cannonballs in the adult pool, don't you agree that may possibly be a good thing?

The S-Class ships have such space constraints that HAL can't possibly keep rooms that are underutilized and also keep up with amenities of newer ships. Card players can still play - but why not in public areas like the Lido or open seating areas around the Atruim? Groups can still meet in the Wajang - they may just have to schedule around other events that are open to the whole ship or choose the larger HAL ships that will still have more space available to them.

Celebrity describes culinary arts programs, extra-charge spa programs and large childrens programs for their ships - why whouldn't HAL have them too?

The line needs to keep the smaller/older ships more attractive & in demand to keep their ticket prices from falling and loosing profitability - and this is one way how. If HAL doesn't maintain profitability, people loose jobs and we loose choices like Premier, Rennaissance, Norwegian America, Sitmar and Royal Viking...

Like bepsf I have to ask, where did all this come from? We can only hope much of it is supposition/speculation. So far we've avoided the Zuiderdam and her sisters preferring to travel on the 'older, more traditional' HAL ships. The thought of 2,998 other passengers on board sort of puts us off. :eek:

[uncialman]

bepsf stated:

Uncialman - I'm not finding the source of that article - where was it published? I did find the HAL PR statement, and it doesn't mention some of the things you have described...

uncialman replies:

Uh, it's called a sales meeting...

Let's leave it at that. Not one word that I have typed here is innuendo or rumor. It was announced to us a few days ago with all the hoopla and fanfare- I asked a few questions about the consequences of such moves and was hurried along.

bepsf stated:

Extra charge coffees? Vista Class ships have been charging extra for premium coffee's in the Windjammer Cafe's since Zuiderdam. (for alot less than your local Starbucks, I might add) The Java Cafe still serves hot tea and regular coffees for free. Nothing new, just making the line consistent.

uncialman replies:

I am quite aware of the changes on the Zuiderdam and am flabbergasted as to the thought behind such a venture outside of the fact that the Windstar was primarliy used by the European officers and crew on board. Also, the Java Cafe on the Zuiderdam was a non-functioning are of the Zuiderdam the two voyages that I have spent on-board her this year. No coffee, no tea, no water - nothing. The Java cafe area on the Zuiderdam was simply a space occupied by chairs that was taken over by photographers during the evening hours. As you noted, this change will be fleet wide by 2006.

Now, let's think about this for a minute; since my voyage on the Rotterdam in May 2002 (just two years ago) the following changes have been made:

*Current Charge for the specialty restaurant
*tipping and gratuities now added on to the bill
*no self-serve laundrettes on Vista class ships
*smaller portions in the dining room
*fees for specialty coffee and teas
*4 tiered dining to accommadate staff cut-backs
*pop and rock played in hallways and at pools

These along with the other soon SOE changes basically usher in a brand new line.

bepsf stated:

Pop Music in the corridors? Hmmm - I'll take that one w/ a grain of salt. As much as I love listening to Ella Fitzgerald, 7 days of her over and over and over again, 24/7 in the Lido on the Amsterdam a couple weeks ago was a bit much...

uncialman replies:

By no means am I against variety of music, but what should be established is what ambient music is appropriate for the brand and what is not. Let's see, while on the Zuiderdam we had Van Halen, Pink, Peter Gabriel, Michael Jackson, Red Hot Chili Peppers et all in the hallways and pools and still had music from the 40's and 50's in the lido deck. Why would a five-star premium product need to have acoustical wallpaper everywhere you walk anyway? As most music therapy majors would explain, the type of music we listen to effects our moods, our habits and ability to think and be at peace. The current offerings by HAL onboard do not consistently agree with the level of product that they are seeking to deliver.

bepsf stated:

Turning the Wajang into a Culinary Arts exhibition hall? Not a bad idea if they can do it w/out losing the movie theatre/meeting room aspect, which I suspect they can because there's alot of unused space behind those moviescreen walls. The Wajang sits empty and unused for hours at a time every day & with movies 24/7 on your stateroom televisions and DVD players, why not make the space more usable?

uncialman replies:

Actually, the Wajang theatre is used constantly by Ministry groups, sales training groups and the like during the hours that movies are not being shown. One of the primary problems with the current plans is that groups will be shut out of a tremendous amount of conference space. Many people like going to the movies and feeling like they are "out for a night on the town" especially on longer voyages. On the many, many voyages I have had on ships that have been equipped with theatres (HAL, Celeb, RCI), the movies always had at least 60% occupancy and at times, there was not a seat to be had (I missed Ice Age on the Mercury 2 years ago, drat). The fact that HAL has made this an incredibly romantic, special occasion by brining in fresh popped popcorn and by offering free cookies and the like at the Java cafe across the hall has made this a favorite among cruisers. Instead, we are faced with going down to a DVD outlet, 'renting' a DVD and attempting to stay awake as you watch your movie on a 17 inch screen - not exactly my idea of luxury; more like dorm life at college.

And HAL plans to fill their new cooking studios with people willing to pay to learn how to cook? I don't think so...

bepsf asserted:

Changing the ship's library into a computer lab? Nowadays w/ modern media the way it is, it makes sense to combine the two - having computer rooms lined w/ books and comfy chairs - they are both quiet reading-type activities, so why not? Every time I'm in the library, the attending staff person has been on their own laptop anyway - and the web-cafe users off the atrium are always inundated w/ noisy people wandering past...

uncialman replies:

Funny, in my experiences on HAL cruises, the Library has been a quiet area of respite for those wanting to cozy up and read a book. More computers?!? So, let me get this straight, HAL wants to attract young 30ish folks like me that work our rear-ends off all day IN FRONT OF COMPUTER SCREENS and then are going to give us the attractive option of plopping down in front of computer screens for 'classes'? I can just see it: "Come improve your skills on Excel 2004" or "Learn Microsoft Access now!" Uh, no.

A well stocked, well maintained library is part of the classic, traditional cruise experience: if they want to do away with all the amenities of classic, traditional cruise experience, then don't call it a classic, traditional cruise line.

Hey, once again, I'm 35...

bepsf stated:

The waterfall is going to be in the expanded Club HAL area - it will not be in a central/featured part of the ship and you need never see it. If it helps keep the kids happy so that they are not bored out of their minds playing on the elevators or doing cannonballs in the adult pool, don't you agree that may possibly be a good thing?

Mike replies:

No, I think what would be better is to have parents actually responsible for the actions of their children, wherever they may be. If they *ban* kids from the main pool areas, I might change my mind. :-)

bepsf stated:

The S-Class ships have such space constraints that HAL can't possibly keep rooms that are underutilized and also keep up with amenities of newer ships. Card players can still play - but why not in public areas like the Lido or open seating areas around the Atruim? Groups can still meet in the Wajang - they may just have to schedule around other events that are open to the whole ship or choose the larger HAL ships that will still have more space available to them.

uncialman replies:

The fact is, those of us (and my groups) that want to cruise HAL do not want a ton of Ice skating rinks, in-line skating, rock climbing walls, miniature golf courses, virtual reality centers, thrill rides, suspended discos etc. We want a clean ship, with good-sized cabins, good service, good food, a place to meet, and a place where we can sit in a wood deck chair and read as the world goes by...

Secondly, the "larger" Vista class ships do not have any more meeting room than the R and S class ships. Queens lounge - soon to be converted as well. Conference rooms - too small for groups in the 150 person range. The Big Show lounge - good luck booking it. Not to mention, why would I book my group on the Zuiderdam when the experience is even less of a luxury cruise than cruising on the Island Princess or RCI Radiance for $100 more per stateroom? Eh, the Zuiderdam *is* in the class of those ships...

bepsf states:

Celebrity describes culinary arts programs, extra-charge spa programs and large childrens programs for their ships - why whouldn't HAL have them too?

uncialman replies:

Celebrity does not currently charge for the use of it's thassolotherapy pool or for their sauna or steam room. Unfortunately, we will not have the luxury of having our free sauna or steam anymore - we will have to cruise carnvial for that.

to be continued...

[uncialman]

bepsf asserted:

The line needs to keep the smaller/older ships more attractive & in demand to keep their ticket prices from falling and loosing profitability - and this is one way how. If HAL doesn't maintain profitability, people loose jobs and we loose choices like Premier, Rennaissance, Norwegian America, Sitmar and Royal Viking...

uncialman replies:

Ok, think about what you have just typed: are you saying that Premier, Rennaissance etc did not succeed because they didn't add in ice skating rinks and rock climbing walls? Hardly: a lot of the problem was bad money management, bad planning as far as having all of your cruises start out of obscure foreign ports (Rennaissance), and not being able to keep up with the likes of those that distinguised themselves from the field or from those that had found their 'niche'. HAL, almost more so than any other line, has their 'niche'. That particular niche is not made up simply by those who are a certain age or a particular income, but by those who enjoy elegant surroundings, the classic cruise experience and an uncrowded, unhurried refined product. And what has been the answer from Mr. Meadows? Simple - make HAL *just like every other cruise line in the WLC fleet* and hope their 'niche' doesn't abandon ship to quickly. Meanwhile, Celebrity prospers...

As one poster has already stated, HAL is attempting to be all things to all people. My gosh, they already have Carnival and Princess in their family doing exactly that. Should Hyatt do everything that they can to attract the Days Inn and Holiday Inn Crowd? Should The Ritz Carlton start putting in big water slides and bring out goofy cartoon characters to breakfast to attract families? No: once you have established what your brand stands for, you improve and sustain that image. HAL was known for an intimate, classic, exceptional crusie product that would not "nickle and dime" people to death. That reputation is changing....

[localady]

As one poster has already stated, HAL is attempting to be all things to all people. My gosh, they already have Carnival and Princess in their family doing exactly that. Should Hyatt do everything that they can to attract the Days Inn and Holiday Inn Crowd? Should The Ritz Carlton start putting in big water slides and bring out goofy cartoon characters to breakfast to attract families? No: once you have established what your brand stands for, you improve and sustain that image. HAL was known for an intimate, classic, exceptional crusie product that would not "nickle and dime" people to death. That reputation is changing....

I love cruising HAL, as you can see from my signature, but unfortunately I have to agree wholeheartedly with uncialman's above statement. :o

I do think that HAL could accommodate families in a way that would still allow it to be known as as intimate, classically focused cruiseline. I am happy to hear about the kids area being added because as a parent who loves HAL I'd like my kids have a place they could go enjoy some supervised fun and not have to worry about how they are occupying their time. But as for the music/atmosphere change, even my kids can live without Pink or Van Halen at lunch!:eek: :cool:

[superstein61]

The Java Cafe's will be gone and the Wajang theatre will be replaced with a "culinary arts forum" in the spirit of Iron Chef etc. Great change !!!


On S class ships, The Library, Card Room, and puzzle corner will be gutted for the new "Explorations Cafe" with a pay per cup fancy coffee service, fee - based instruction in arts and crafts and fee based computers. The same will be done in the R and V class ships with the gutting of the Half Moon, puzzle corner and Erasmus Library ($$). I really don't care either way here. The library, card room and puzzle room are useless. Sounds like they are being replaced by something just as useless

On the back of each ship's funnel area, a kiddie water-wonderland will be added in. Teen hangout centers and kiddie areas will be beefed up. All cabins will also be fitted with DVD players, with rentals of DVD's to follow ($$). Awesome on both counts !!!!! Although the old fogies ;) won't like it

pop-rock music will be played in all hallways and pools (at times, much too loudly) to apparently attract a 'younger' crowd I like it !!!!!


For all of you who complain - there will be many more that will embrace these changes

[superstein61]

Hate to say it, but one would believe Holland's core clients are dying off. They have a marketing issue of how to bring in new younger clients in addition to the ones they already have which are not sufficent in total to make up for the ones going to the big Holland ship in the sky.

Joannie
Agreed 100%. they need to have something to attract the non-blue hair set. HAL must change with the times

[superstein61]

Uncialman - I'm not finding the source of that article - where was it published? I did find the HAL PR statement, and it doesn't mention some of the things you have described...

Extra charge coffees? Vista Class ships have been charging extra for premium coffee's in the Windjammer Cafe's since Zuiderdam. (for alot less than your local Starbucks, I might add) The Java Cafe still serves hot tea and regular coffees for free. Nothing new, just making the line consistent.

Pop Music in the corridors? Hmmm - I'll take that one w/ a grain of salt. As much as I love listening to Ella Fitzgerald, 7 days of her over and over and over again, 24/7 in the Lido on the Amsterdam a couple weeks ago was a bit much...

Turning the Wajang into a Culinary Arts exhibition hall? Not a bad idea if they can do it w/out losing the movie theatre/meeting room aspect, which I suspect they can because there's alot of unused space behind those moviescreen walls. The Wajang sits empty and unused for hours at a time every day & with movies 24/7 on your stateroom televisions and DVD players, why not make the space more usable?

Changing the ship's library into a computer lab? Nowadays w/ modern media the way it is, it makes sense to combine the two - having computer rooms lined w/ books and comfy chairs - they are both quiet reading-type activities, so why not? Every time I'm in the library, the attending staff person has been on their own laptop anyway - and the web-cafe users off the atrium are always inundated w/ noisy people wandering past...

The waterfall is going to be in the expanded Club HAL area - it will not be in a central/featured part of the ship and you need never see it. If it helps keep the kids happy so that they are not bored out of their minds playing on the elevators or doing cannonballs in the adult pool, don't you agree that may possibly be a good thing?

The S-Class ships have such space constraints that HAL can't possibly keep rooms that are underutilized and also keep up with amenities of newer ships. Card players can still play - but why not in public areas like the Lido or open seating areas around the Atruim? Groups can still meet in the Wajang - they may just have to schedule around other events that are open to the whole ship or choose the larger HAL ships that will still have more space available to them.

Celebrity describes culinary arts programs, extra-charge spa programs and large childrens programs for their ships - why whouldn't HAL have them too?

The line needs to keep the smaller/older ships more attractive & in demand to keep their ticket prices from falling and loosing profitability - and this is one way how. If HAL doesn't maintain profitability, people loose jobs and we loose choices like Premier, Rennaissance, Norwegian America, Sitmar and Royal Viking...
Nicely said Bepsf

[bepsf]

Uncialman --

Forgive me if I was under the impression that this was from a written source. However the very first line on your first post reads: "The real news in the article from another thread by Mr. Meadows..."

"Uh, it's called a sales meeting..."

I didn't think it too much to ask for the source of this information. Never occured to me that it would be something made up - but its been my experience that sometimes specific details get lost in translation.

"Actually, the Wajang theatre is used constantly by Ministry groups, sales training groups and the like during the hours that movies are not being shown."

Not in my recent experiece on Amsterdam - perhaps on other itineraries/ships.

"*Current Charge for the specialty restaurant"

Celebrity, Princess, Cunard and others charge extra (sometimes more than $20) for premium restaurants. Its a practice that goes clear back to the early 20th century on HAPAG-Lloyd, Cunard and the French Line, so it's very traditional & makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise EVERYONE would be trying to get a table at the Pinnacle every night (just like Cunard recently experienced w/ Todd English on QM2 and recently instituted a $25 extra-tariff)

"*tipping and gratuities now added on to the bill"

This has been discussed at length on other threads - too many new HAL passengers misunderstood the previous policy is to mean "Tipping not allowed"

"*no self-serve laundrettes on Vista class ships"
Personal preference here - I have no desire to spend my limited vacation time in a laundromat watching my undies go round and round or ironing my shirts for dinner.

"*smaller portions in the dining room"

Seems pretty good-sized for a 5 course meal - and never heard of any HAL waiter preventing anyone from ordering double entrees...

"*4 tiered dining to accommadate staff cut-backs"

Is this truly so? It takes just as much waitstaff to serve the two levels at separate times as at once - we don't see waiters rushing from floor to floor. (OK - we do only need one "Yum-Yum Man" instead of two...) Seems more like a way to be able to serve larger numbers of better quality/hot meals out of those small kitchen facilities - particularly on Vista Class vessels.

"...are you saying that Premier, Rennaissance etc did not succeed because they didn't add in ice skating rinks and rock climbing walls?"

I didn't suggest that in my comments, and nowhere in your comments or anything else written indicates HAL doing so either. Further, if HAL were to add such dubious "amenities", I'd cancel my future reservations so fast it would make heads spin - I don't care for that kind of atmosphere either.

"...once you have established what your brand stands for, you improve and sustain that image. HAL was known for an intimate, classic, exceptional crusie product that would not "nickle and dime" people to death."

I agree with you here - it seems that you, I and many others on the board here know exactly what the HAL brand stands for and how to profitably further that brand. In many ways HAL gets it, and in other ways HAL may be making errors, but they would be foolish to leave their collective heads in the sand and do absolutely nothing. And for as many people who want "All-Inclusive" - there are others who say "I don't use it, why do I have to pay for it?"

I sort of expected some disagreement here, but am merely putting out the notion that certain changes may not totally be a bad thing.

[dakrewser]

I used to love the HAL product until the advent of the Vista Class ships. While the ships themselves are stunning (IMO), they're just too large and mass market. We always loved the S-Class, and still do, but I've found that food and service levels have deteriorated greatly. Our most recent cruise was a huge disappointment which was only made greater by our most recent (non-HAL) cruise experiences.

THat's not a function of the ship size, though, but of staffing levels (which are going down throughout the line)....

-dave

[dakrewser]

Nicely said Bepsf
And, strangely enough, I agree with this sentiment.

There are changes occuring that will attract the marginal passenger - the one deciding between a cruise and, say, a week at an all-inclusive resort. THose changes deserve a chance (such as the library and theater).

Some changes, though, appear to be a move to decrease costs or increase 'fee-based' services. Those I'm not so sure about,

-dave

[Lefty Bob]

What did Mr. Meadows do to Seabourn?
Lefty Bob

[shipcafe]

Quote : The Java Cafe's will be gone and the Wajang theatre will be replaced with a "culinary arts forum" in the spirit of Iron Chef etc. On S class ships, The Library, Card Room, and puzzle corner will be gutted for the new "Explorations Cafe" with a pay per cup fancy coffee service, fee - based instruction in arts and crafts and fee based computers. The same will be done in the R and V class ships with the gutting of the Half Moon, puzzle corner and Erasmus Library ($$).

* The library book stock will not only still be available but very much increased as far as the number of books.

Quote : As has been noted by Rev. Neal and others, pop-rock music will be played in all hallways and pools (at times, much too loudly) to apparently attract a 'younger' crowd (funny, when you go into a local bagel or coffee shop populated by people in their 20's, jazz and classical seems to be all the rage).

* I have been on other lines & ships with "muzak" in the corridors and I was able to sleep, nap, everything just fine. It is not set at a volume level as to prevent people from sleeping!

Quote : It seems that instead of providing a relaxing, quiet atmosphere, HAL is intent on ramming a particular music style down everyone's throat; even though MP3's and I -pods are the way to go nowadays and people can choose their *own* taste in music.

* Again, see above.

Quote : All of these changes are based in a desire to add revenue for the company and to assist the cruiser in departing from their hard earned cash.

* Isn't vacationing an investment? I have never looked at any of my travel as being a "depletion of my money" but, rather, as an investment to the value of travel and increasing that worth in my own life.

[shipcafe]

From what I have read about Mr. Meadows and all these new "things" he wants to do for HAL, it sounds as though many of we old traditional people will soon be looking for another cruise line.

Water slides - that's carnival.

No more libraries?? - Bad news there.

Card rooms gone??? - Too many times the organized bridge players have taken over that room for hours and you can't even get a table to play your own games. So no loss there.

Loud music in the hallways - pop music - we won't like that. DH takes a nap every afternoon - now there will be loud music to keep him awake?

We have a few more cruises already booked on HAL, but as the months go by and we cruise on the various ships, we will be watching to see what changes take place and whether or not we are going to like them. Right now it sounds as though we will be looking to cruise Crystal or Cunard.





I didn't see "water slides" in the post ... and ... the "water wonderland" is for the youth on board in their own areas . . .

[uncialman]

Bepsf, I want to first thank you for what I believe is a profitable discussion, regardless of our differences. I appreciate the fact that you have thought through your opinions. I hope you will consider what I have to share…

I had previously stated:

"Uh, it's called a sales meeting..."

Bepsf then replied:

I didn't think it too much to ask for the source of this information. Never occured to me that it would be something made up - but its been my experience that sometimes specific details get lost in translation.

Uncialman replies:

I attempted to be as specific as possible as to what was conveyed to us. I did leave out the changes at HMC and don't consider them a necessary part of the HAL product. I actually tried to let folks know about the changes that were going to be occurring last April and folks at that time just plain didn't believe me.

Bepsf then stated:

Not in my recent experiece on Amsterdam - perhaps on other itineraries/ships..

uncialman replies:
It may not be visible to the average cruiser, but group space is at a premium on almost all HAL ships. Actually, folks usually complain loudly on this board that "a group has taken over our ship". With these new structural and usage changes, the competition for space will be absolutely ridiculous. So, those "empty" spaces that you refer to may be empty for an hour or two, but they are filled with groups on a daily basis that would not otherwise cruise with HAL (and one of the reasons that Celebrity has built in extra meeting space in their Millennium class vessels.) The Vista class ships have meeting space, but have only one dedicated space that is shared by many groups and cannot comfortably accommadate more than 100 persons.
As hotels realized about 20 years ago, groups can be a huge portion of your income, and currently groups provide a good percentage of income to HAL. Thus, at almost any large hotel you will see an enormous amount of convention space. Recently, HAL eliminated the position of on-board Group coordinator and usually give the responsibility to the Bar Manager or the Guest relations manager (something that bordered on the disasterous last year on the Zaandam). Unfortunately, with the differing applications of their public rooms and spaces, groups will be squeezed. With the case of the Volendam, Zaandam, Rotterdam and Amsterdam a good portion of group space will be out-right eliminated with the elimination of the HMC room area (one of the most functional meeting spaces of any ship that I have been on).

Bepsf stated:

Celebrity, Princess, Cunard and others charge extra (sometimes more than $20) for premium restaurants. Its a practice that goes clear back to the early 20th century on HAPAG-Lloyd, Cunard and the French Line, so it's very traditional & makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise EVERYONE would be trying to get a table at the Pinnacle every night (just like Cunard recently experienced w/ Todd English on QM2 and recently instituted a $25 extra-tariff).

Uncialman replies,

Once again, this argument fails in the line of discussion that I first presented when I began this thread. If you were to recall, I had began the thread bemoaning the changes at HAL that used to set HAL apart from other lines, not what Hapag-Lloyd, Norweigan, RCI or whomever were doing in the 20th century or beyond. What is "very traditional" for some lines has not been traditional for HAL. Let's remember, HAL began their specialty dining option aboard the Rotterdam in 1997 (the 20th century) and kept the Marco Polo free to all cruisers up until the inception of the Pinnacle grill on the Zuiderdam in 2002. So, in the tradition of HAL and not other cruise lines, we had from the inception of the alternative dining room in 1997 to 2002, 5 years of HAL tradition to not charge extra for the use of the alternative dining room. Should HAL begin charging for ice cream in the lido, charging for the nightly shows, making tips “mandatory” because other cruise lines have started to do so and that it can now be considered “tradition”? No, they shouldn’t and it would be a horrible mistake if they were to start doing so. The eventual winner in the premium cruise category over the next few years will be the line that delivers the highest quality of product and the greatest value for the cruiser; not whether or not one is considered ‘hip’ by thirty and fifty year olds.

Further more, this was one of the major attractions that ‘made HAL, HAL and in 4 cruises aboard the Volendam, Rotterdam, and Zaadam (twice) my wife and I and others in our groups never had a problem securing a table.

Uncialman had previously stated:

"*tipping and gratuities now added on to the bill*"

Bepsf then replied:

This has been discussed at length on other threads - too many new HAL passengers misunderstood the previous policy is to mean "Tipping not allowed"

uncialman replies:

This particular aspect of the cruising experience has been one of the most trumpeted features of a Holland America cruise and underscored their previous policy that “the passenger is our guest”. By being a guest, HAL formerly explained that they wanted to treat guests in such a manner to let them know that the ship and it’s services were theirs (excluding the Steiner run salons) and that tipping was not to be a set fee as it was now on other contemporary lines. This set HAL apart.

Secondly, short after the news of tipping policies were announced to the crews of HAL, the company then pleasantly informed the crew that the crew would now be responsible for paying for their uniforms and for paying for their own flight home. The crew let us know about their displeasure with the new HAL moves constantly during our three visits with them this past year. The majority of the crew stated that they would gladly take the old policy over the new.

Let me say this, if HAL wants to change their image so drastically, change what made themselves incredibly special and appreciated by their loyal fans (who usually cruise more often than the average ‘fun ship’ cruiser) then they should come straight out and change their name. In your estimation ‘doing what is needed to survive’ will only complicate HAL because she will be in competition not just with Celebrity for the premium crowd, but will now also be forced to compete with Carnival, RCI, Norweigan, Princess, Costa and MSC in the contemporary cruise market. What will HAL use as an drawing card(?), how about “Come cruise with Holland America: we are just like all the other lines but we have darker ships and bigger cabins.” You see, bepsf, it has been the ‘little things’ that HAL has done that have been of value to the customer that they are taking away (along with the classic ambiance). If you are a family where the mother and father were in their 40’s and the kids in their early teens and you wanted an ‘active contemporary experience’ what line would you choose. As the owner of an agency, I would probably steer them to Carnival, Disney or RCI. If you are parents in your forties and you want to get away from the noise, the pre-fab fun, and enjoy a quiet relaxing cruise vacation (an exact quote from HAL’s 2003 brochure)where you were treated exquisitely, can I still recommend HAL? Would I be more inclined to recommend Celebrity in this situation? One of the main problems with Mr. Meadow’s strategy is that it also takes choice away from the agent. With the new changes, HAL will be at the bottom of many folks lists for recommending any sort of cruise. They are losing their identity in the market and are positioning themselves in limbo – and this will not help the company in any way shape or form.

Recently, the head of a large group that has cruised with HAL for 8 years straight now (they average 700 per group and appreciated the quiet ambiance and classic cruising style of HAL) stated to me that after their last experience on the Zuiderdam, they wanted to find another line to cruise on. Without me even mentioning a name, the group leader stated “what about Celebrity?” Bepsf, that translates to half the passengers on a Rotterdam class vessel that they are going to lose that were consistent year in and year out with Holland America Line. This year, as HAL has consistently over the past years been my favorite line for ministry groups, I brought, for the first time, a group that had previously cruised Celebrity onboard the Zaandam. When comparing Celebrity and HAL, the group leader stated that there was “no comparison” between HAL and Celebrity and that Celebrity “far exceeded HAL in almost every category.” I have to admit, the experience onboard the Zaandam left a terrible taste in my mouth as this was where we first noticed changes beginning to occur. It had been about 11 months since our last cruise with HAL (also on the Zaandam (btw, I cruise about 7 times a year, mostly with my groups)) and the change was noticeable. Not only this, but the on-board group coordination was dreadful.

To be continued…

[uncialman]

Bepsf stated:

Seems pretty good-sized for a 5 course meal - and never heard of any HAL waiter preventing anyone from ordering double entrees...

uncialman replies:

At this rate, I’m sure that is right around the corner…

Bepsf stated:

Is this truly so? It takes just as much waitstaff to serve the two levels at separate times as at once - we don't see waiters rushing from floor to floor. (OK - we do only need one "Yum-Yum Man" instead of two...) Seems more like a way to be able to serve larger numbers of better quality/hot meals out of those small kitchen facilities - particularly on Vista Class vessels.

Uncialman replies:

No, actually the line has been making each waiter and his asst. cover more tables because of cutbacks and the 4 dining times will allow waitstaff to leave their tables to asst. waiters after peak time (placing, ordering, delivering) as the second level is serviced.

I had stated previously:
"...are you saying that Premier, Rennaissance etc did not succeed because they didn't add in ice skating rinks and rock climbing walls?"

bepsf then stated:

I didn't suggest that in my comments, and nowhere in your comments or anything else written indicates HAL doing so either. Further, if HAL were to add such dubious "amenities", I'd cancel my future reservations so fast it would make heads spin - I don't care for that kind of atmosphere either.

Uncialman replies:

Bepsf, in all fairness, your statement in your first reply of “If HAL doesn't maintain profitability, people loose jobs and we loose choices like Premier, Rennaissance, Norwegian America, Sitmar and Royal Viking...” is rather open ended and seems to beg the question that HAL must somehow change by adding in all of these changes (and possibly more) or risk going into the cruise line graveyard. I’m sorry if it sounded like I was trying to put words in your mouth (and, yes, I took the argument to ad absurdam) but we obviously have a difference of opinion as to how HAL can truly ‘grow’ corporately or at least maintain their base. To maintain the position that ‘HAL must change or die’ would certainly lead us to state that there are limits to how far HAL should go. You do firmly state that rock-climbing walls and ice skating rinks would be taking thing too far; I simply state that I believe that they have already gone to far and need to work on improving the basics. Some of the SOE items are great: I appreciate the comfy beds and nice linens – those are nice touches. But let’s do a comparison and ask the question as to what you would prefer:

*Higher Quality Dining room and lido food
*Better trained staff and higher staff ratio
*Greater attention to onboard cleanliness
*Better attention and training to mechanical problems such as on-board air conditioning
*Classic ambiance and more attention to onboard entertainment
*Attentive Pursers desk and information desk staff
*Greenhouse spa but no extra charges
*No-fee specialty coffees at the Java Cafe

or

*Fruit in steel bowls
*Nice Plates (although smaller)
*Greenhouse spa (and you must pay-up to use them now)
*Pop-Rock in the promenade, lower promenade and at both pools
*Massage shower heads
*Explorations Cafe with fee based coffees

Given the choice between the two, I think I would take my own first list, and by the looks of it, so would a tremendous amount of others on this board. The first list mentioned is the primary criteria by which frequent cruisers ( and premium cruisers) judge the quality of a premium cruise product. The second is filled with nothing but items that either take value away from an inclusive cruise experience or simply are window dressing on items that currently deserve attention.

Uncialman had stated:

"...once you have established what your brand stands for, you improve and sustain that image. HAL was known for an intimate, classic, exceptional crusie product that would not "nickle and dime" people to death."

Bepsf then replied:

I agree with you here - it seems that you, I and many others on the board here know exactly what the HAL brand stands for and how to profitably further that brand. In many ways HAL gets it, and in other ways HAL may be making errors, but they would be foolish to leave their collective heads in the sand and do absolutely nothing. And for as many people who want "All-Inclusive" - there are others who say "I don't use it, why do I have to pay for it?"

Uncialman replies:

Well stated, bepsf. But I think HAL needs to listen to so many folks that are on this thread and others who are of various ages that don’t want all of these changes and hopes that HAL will return to what she was just two very short years ago. As an agent, I would like to have many different choices of style of cruising to give groups and clients that are coming to me instead of being forced to say, “If you want premium cruising, take Celebrity. If you want contemporary, pre-fab family fun you have your choice of RCI, Carnival, Princess and HAL.” On the other side of the market, I know that many loyal HAL cruisers that have the ability to pay more are opting for Crystal and Celebrity.

I really can’t believe that HAL is continuing down this road…

[uncialman]

I want to first say that I truly appreciate the work that you have done on your site. It has been valuable through the years.

I hope that my last two posts further elucidate the position that alot of the folks loyal to HAL are taking.

As far as other ships playing pop music in hallways: yes, many 'contemporary' lines do but those are in a completely different class and tradition. The fact it is being played in common areas aboard the ship is an irritant more so than anything else to those who prefer a refined ambiance. If HAL wants to go down the road of Carnival, RCI and Norweigan then she will have to sleep in the bed that she makes.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Uncialman, I really appreciate all your input as well as Brian's. I find everything you both say extremely informative.

I'm going to post similarly to my post on another thread about this subject. I don't want to seem old fashioned and not all "old fogies" have blue hair. I know we're constantly told "change is good", but I sincerely believe "if it ain't broke don't fix it". HAL had a fabulous product. I thought when Carnival took over they didn't want to play around with something they knew worked. Carnival has their "fun" market so why do we have to hack up HAL and try to create yet another "fun" market which I believe makes up the better part of the cruise industry.

It makes me terribly sad. I loved the days of 700 "guests" on a ship when you got to know everyone including the Cruise Director. But that's gone unless you want to pay an arm and a leg and we can't. So I said good bye to that. Finally I was basically narrowed down to HAL and Celebrity and now it seems I'll be narrowed to Celebrity. And maybe eventually narrowed to nothing. And I'm sorry, but I think there's a huge market in the 60 and over category, with a lot of time (finally) to travel, and most of us living to a very ripe old age. So they have us for at least 20 years and more. Why alienate us by taking away that to which we have become loyal?

And I'll say again that when they hoist that rock climbing wall up to the top deck, I'm definitely outta there:eek: .

[Peggy Sue]

I posted the original article on another thread. Reading through these posts, some of the details in that article have been changed...

Where did I get it? My TA posted it on a Yahoo group that he moderates. I have no reason to believe it's a "fabricated" article at all. He often posts information he obtains about all cruise lines on the group site.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Peggy Sue

[uncialman]

Thanks for your article on the other thread. The posting of your article inspired me to post what I had already been told in a sales meeting conducted by HAL on Friday of last week. Your article was right on the money, I simply "filled in the blanks" by offering what had been presented to us last week (and you should have heard the moans and groans during the presentation).

All the information that I had posted was straight off my notes that I took during the meeting. I also didn't include several items that maybe I should have concerning HMC:

*a jet-ski and water craft rental area is currently being installed by HAL at HMC
*a stingray experience petting are is being constructed by HAL on HMC (fee based)
* a children's water park area will also be installed on HMC as well

I really didn't think any of these items really deserved attention in the sense that these changes are occurring at a destination instead of on-board. I think some of the changes at HMC are positive and will break up some of the crowds at the near end of the beach.

Let me reiterate again that I love HAL and only want the best for those who are loyal HAL customers and for my clients who appreciated the former (I hate to say 'former') Holland America Line.

[ekerr19]

bepsf stated:

Uncialman - I'm not finding the source of that article - where was it published? I did find the HAL PR statement, and it doesn't mention some of the things you have described...

uncialman replies:

Uh, it's called a sales meeting...

Let's leave it at that. Not one word that I have typed here is innuendo or rumor. It was announced to us a few days ago with all the hoopla and fanfare- I asked a few questions about the consequences of such moves and was hurried along. Uncialman - I too, would be curious to know the source... "Uh, it's called a sales meeting..." is hardly persuasive here. Are you employed by HAL? Your thread title leads one to believe this is a news release of some sort...


uncialman replies:

Actually, the Wajang theatre is used constantly by Ministry groups, sales training groups and the like ... Sorry, I've been on just a few cruises - but, I've never seen this happen, but then I try to avoid cruising when there are large groups onboard for a purpose other than cruising. There are movie times scheduled and the schedule is adhered to. We are big movie fans and DH will often take in several movies while onboard, our kids as well. Never once has anyone come back to the cabin and reported, "oh the movie was cancelled because a ministry group is using the theater and they went over the alloted time." or some other such thing.

I have yet to understand the large groups that come aboard for one educational purpose or another - most for some type of continuing education - where they expect to have the run of the ship. In my experience, these groups are some of the worst when it comes to respecting their fellow pax.

[uncialman]

Uncialman - I too, would be curious to know the source... "Uh, it's called a sales meeting..." is hardly persuasive here. Are you employed by HAL? Your thread title leads one to believe this is a news release of some sort...


Sorry, I've been on just a few cruises - but, I've never seen this happen, but then I try to avoid cruising when there are large groups onboard for a purpose other than cruising. There are movie times scheduled and the schedule is adhered to. We are big movie fans and DH will often take in several movies while onboard, our kids as well. Never once has anyone come back to the cabin and reported, "oh the movie was cancelled because a ministry group is using the theater and they went over the alloted time." or some other such thing.

I have yet to understand the large groups that come aboard for one educational purpose or another - most for some type of continuing education - where they expect to have the run of the ship. In my experience, these groups are some of the worst when it comes to respecting their fellow pax.

Uncialman replies:

Greetings ekrr19.

My post to Peggy Sue was meant to clarify the nature of the meeting and stated:

" The posting of your article inspired me to post what I had already been told in a sales meeting conducted by HAL on Friday of last week. Your article was right on the money, I simply "filled in the blanks" by offering what had been presented to us last week (and you should have heard the moans and groans during the presentation).

All the information that I had posted was straight off my notes that I took during the meeting."

Sorry if this caused you any sort of confusion. I also stated in my last reply to bepsf that I am the owner of a Group travel company. I can't direct you to my company site or give you my name because of the fact that when I last let you folks know what I had heard would be going on with HAL, I was threatened with the removal of my current commission and structural relationship with HAL (RevNeal can back this up: while I would hope he would not tell you who I am, he was forwarded all the correspondance I had with HAL on the matter).

Secondly, to my knowledge, no movie in the Wajang has ever been cancelled due to a group unless the ship had been chartered. We have always had to fight for group space and this apparently will become even more of a challenege. Groups are never given "run of the ship" unless the ship is chartered and are usually limited to times not exceeding 1 and a half hours (Occassionally 2 hours, but very rarely). Now, there have been folks that have been on this forum who have claimed that a group cancelled a meeting, but after 28 escorted group crusies with groups that number to almost 700, this has never happened with us. Traditionally on HAL, rooms used for group space have been the Wajang, the HMC room, the Hudson room, the Crow's nest (occassionally - only when there are many groups on board), and the main show lounge (with the Vista Class ships having dedicated conference areas and the Queens Lounge).

All of my groups (save 1 insurance sales group that I would never think of putting on HAL (they were almost kicked off of an RCI ship last year, I have them on Carnival this year)) that I have had on HAL ships have been incredibly respectful of other passengers and the crew. All of our groups are fully escorted and we try to be noticed as little as possible while on board. This is the same for any hotel or resort that my clients might possibly want to use for the same purpose.

[vb,cruisers]

We have been on 21 HAL cruises in the last 8 years. Our last cruise was in Sept. We just booked our next cruise on Celebrity, because from what I hear, it is getting to be what HAL was. On our Sept. cruise we talked to some of the waiters and heard, they now have to buy their own uniforms, pay their own way home, and the at home time is now 5 months instead of the normal 3. On average in the dinning room, we waited 20-30 minutes for our desert, and NO it was not our waiter's fault. Sometimes our cabin was not made up until the afternoon, and NO it was not the room stewards fault....too few people, with too much to handle. As for the number of cruises we have taken, about all we have ever gotten was maybe invited to an extra cocktail party.

[uncialman]

Holland America Line


Holland America Line Names Richard D. Meadows, CTC Senior Vice President, Marketing and Sales


SEATTLE, July 16 -- Holland America Line has appointed Richard D. Meadows, CTC, senior vice president, marketing and sales. Meadows will report to Stein Kruse, president and chief operating officer, and will have global revenue responsibility for marketing the cruises and CruiseTours of Holland America Line as well as the products of Windstar Cruises.


In his new position, he will oversee all product pricing, yield management, sales, marketing, public relations and other related activities for the company. Meadows, a 20-year veteran of the cruise industry, most recently served as senior vice president, sales and marketing, at Seabourn Cruise Line, generally considered to be the most upscale cruise line in the world. In that position, Meadows was responsible for overall brand and product development, global strategic marketing and sales promotion. Meadows successfully re-branded the line in 2001 as The Yachts of Seabourn.

"Rick brings a wealth of industry experience, creativity, innovation and strategic thinking to this very important role," said Kruse. "His relationships with travel sellers, his experience in working with high-end cruise products and his stellar reputation in the industry will be great assets as we further differentiate Holland America Line as the undisputed premium leader."

Meadows has held positions in Carnival Corporation since 1984 including, vice president, corporate marketing, Carnival Corporation and director of sales, Carnival Cruise Lines. From 1994-2000, Meadows served as vice president, sales and marketing with Windstar Cruises, a subsidiary of Holland America Line.

"We are delighted to welcome Rick back to Seattle and the Holland America Line family," continued Kruse.

Active in the cruise and travel industry, Meadows is a frequent speaker at industry forums and has served on various cruise and travel industry advisory boards. He attended Central Missouri State University.

[superstein61]

And, strangely enough, I agree with this sentiment.

There are changes occuring that will attract the marginal passenger - the one deciding between a cruise and, say, a week at an all-inclusive resort. THose changes deserve a chance (such as the library and theater).

Some changes, though, appear to be a move to decrease costs or increase 'fee-based' services. Those I'm not so sure about,

-dave
Wow , we agree. lets not make a habit out of this :D

[superstein61]

Quote : The Java Cafe's will be gone and the Wajang theatre will be replaced with a "culinary arts forum" in the spirit of Iron Chef etc. On S class ships, The Library, Card Room, and puzzle corner will be gutted for the new "Explorations Cafe" with a pay per cup fancy coffee service, fee - based instruction in arts and crafts and fee based computers. The same will be done in the R and V class ships with the gutting of the Half Moon, puzzle corner and Erasmus Library ($$).

* The library book stock will not only still be available but very much increased as far as the number of books.

Quote : As has been noted by Rev. Neal and others, pop-rock music will be played in all hallways and pools (at times, much too loudly) to apparently attract a 'younger' crowd (funny, when you go into a local bagel or coffee shop populated by people in their 20's, jazz and classical seems to be all the rage).

* I have been on other lines & ships with "muzak" in the corridors and I was able to sleep, nap, everything just fine. It is not set at a volume level as to prevent people from sleeping!

Quote : It seems that instead of providing a relaxing, quiet atmosphere, HAL is intent on ramming a particular music style down everyone's throat; even though MP3's and I -pods are the way to go nowadays and people can choose their *own* taste in music.

* Again, see above.

Quote : All of these changes are based in a desire to add revenue for the company and to assist the cruiser in departing from their hard earned cash.

* Isn't vacationing an investment? I have never looked at any of my travel as being a "depletion of my money" but, rather, as an investment to the value of travel and increasing that worth in my own life.
Well Said Shipcafe !!!

[superstein61]

Uncialman replies:

I also stated in my last reply to bepsf that I am the owner of a Group travel company.

Ahh ha - so really what you are saying is you have a personal interest in some of these changes - such as the Wajang Theater being converted to something a group may not use.

[ekerr19]

Ahh ha - so really what you are saying is you have a personal interest in some of these changes - such as the Wajang Theater being converted to something a group may not use.
Hello... I guess we both missed it! Personally, I don't care to be on a ship with these "large groups" - on the Veendam, a few in the the group said they were told there was no dress code (a fact that will make you happy, Superstein :) ) and they couldn't figure out why we were all dressed up. There were about 600 - 700 pax attending the seminars - so now we always ask - we will book a different ship for that reason alone. I felt like they had completely taken over the ship - the crew didn't even realize there were other pax aboard... we will avoid it in the future, whenever possible.

uncialman- Obviously, you have a vested interest in seeing HAL accomodate things in the manner that best suits your business. I am in this for my vacation. I do not care nor desire to spend my cruise with large groups who are always rushing around or asking to cut in the Lido line because they are late to the next seminar... or dressed in jeans or khakis for dinner claiming "no one told us there was a formal night!"

I still cannot comprehend why so many sales meetings, continuing education and/or other seminars are held on a cruise ship... is it just the economics?

[dakrewser]

I still cannot comprehend why so many sales meetings, continuing education and/or other seminars are held on a cruise ship... is it just the economics?
Wouldn't you like to be able to deduct the price of your cruise on your taxes?

-dave

[ekerr19]

Wouldn't you like to be able to deduct the price of your cruise on your taxes?

-dave
Duh, I had to ask the stupid question... now I really feel dumb!

Thanks for clarifying Dave - :)

[sail7seas]

Great change !!!


I really don't care either way here. The library, card room and puzzle room are useless. Sounds like they are being replaced by something just as useless

Awesome on both counts !!!!! Although the old fogies ;) won't like it

I like it !!!!!


For all of you who complain - there will be many more that will embrace these changes








And, of course, Superstein........this is merely your humble opinion. Entitled to it you certainly are but to present it in such a way as to be the "definitive word" would not be your intention, I am quite sure.

Some (many) of these new 'offerings' were presented to us at the Mariner's Party on Zuiderdam last week by the Hotel Manager, Diderik Van Regemorter. He received many rounds of applause as he described many of the 'soon to be' Signature of Excellence ?"Improvements"? Are they Improvements? Yes, IMO, some certainly are. Some do not think so.

I have no problem with a 'for charge' Windjammer Cafe replacing Java Cafe. I assuredly understand some do not like it. We have tried the Windjammer on a number of occasions and found it soooo good, it is worth it IMO

Card Room replaced. Okay by me. I have never played a board game or a round of bridge in that room during any of our many, many cruises. Will some miss it? Yes, of course.

The Library being changed will matter to me and I am sorry to see that happen.

We have just about never seen a movie in the Wajang but I always liked knowing it was there. I am sorry it will be changed but I DO LIKE THE IDEA OF THE COOKING DEMONSTRATIONS. They will be bringing aboard Celebrity Chefs and I am far more likely to enjoy seeing Emeril cook than I ever enjoyed sitting in a movie theater on a cruise. I'd far rather do any number of other things than sit in a movie when cruising. JMHO......... They will be pleasing some of the people. They will be displeasing some of the people.

You can Never please ALL of the people ALL of the time.


(BTW....to the poster(s) who say they are making these changes because HAL's loyal customer base is dying off......you are very mistaken. Have you been aboard an HAL ship lately? Go to a Mariners' Party and see a great many very loyal HAL pax who are in remarkably fit condition. They walk laps around many far younger than they. They are in the gym; they are speed walking Promenade Deck; they are scuba diving and snorkeling; AND they are also playing sedentary card games and doing puzzles. BUT they are packing their bags, boarding airplanes and they are traveling......and traveling often!!! ?How often do the 'young 'uns get to travel each year for the most part? Two weeks? Three? Folks who have more graying hair often have more time and more money.)

[HeatherInFlorida]

And, of course, Superstein........this is merely your humble opinion. )..................
:) Sail....that you should use the words "humble" and "Superstein" in the same sentence is a bit of a conundum for me;) !!!

[Krazy Kruizers]

GEE

With the Wajang theatre going and movies being shown only once in a while -- What's going to happen to all our free popcorn?

GONE AS WELL! :mad: :(

[sail7seas]

I don't think it will be movies "once in a while". I think it will be Celebrity Chef once in a while. How many times per cruise would he/she be demonstrating how they cook whatever is their speciality?

I can picture them offering sometime in the future once the program gets going cruises that will focus on cooking lessons/demonstrations. Ten day cruises while you learn to make the best pastas and sauces or French Sauces or Greek Appetizers.........I could LOVE that idea.

They are building entire kitchen setups like you see Emeril and the Chefs on Food Network use. It will be 'portable' and can be set in place and then moved at another time.

[gizmo]

GEE

With the Wajang theatre going and movies being shown only once in a while -- What's going to happen to all our free popcorn?

GONE AS WELL! :mad: :(
Maybe they will keep the popcorn and you can eat enjoy while watching the chef prepare the MEATLOAF !!! :D

[gizmo]

I am confused !!! I don't know why all this is being questioned as to where it came from. The only thing new is that waterfall and maybe the music in the hallways. Everything else has been mentioned before. :confused:

[uncialman]

Superstein stated:

Ahh ha - so really what you are saying is you have a personal interest in some of these changes - such as the Wajang Theater being converted to something a group may not use.

uncialman replies:

I must admit that I really struggled with whether or not to respond to your 'drive-by' assertions and accusations. It appears that you would prefer to take this particular thread into the realm of ad-hominem which I pray it does not descend into. These forums provide a nice opportunity, then, to ask questions, seek clarification, and interact, particularly over the only voice that really matters in these discussions - the opinion of each individual cruiser and the decision he or she will make as to where to spend their next cruise dollar. It should be noted, though, that asking questions and discussing issues with one another is not the same as basing objections on caricatures that misrepresent the position you are seeking to address.

Now, to answer your assertion:

No. That is not the main cruxt of my displeasure of the recent moves by HAL. I first approached this entire change with an attempt to clarify rumors that have been circulating about the future of HAL and whether or not they would begin 're-branding' their tried and true product. I first approach my displeasure with the measures brought by Mr. Meadows as an individual cruiser instead of from an agent or agency owner standpoint. From that perspective, as I have already stated, my wife and I have loved the Holland America Product from our very first cruise aboard the Rotterdam a few years back until now. We thought at the time that HAL was the absolute perfect fit for us and we have chosen to do our own personal cruising aboard HAL ever since. My wife and I have enjoyed some fabulous personal cruise vacations on the Zaandam, Veendam and Volendam by ourselves without bringing groups in tow (the Zuiderdam was not to my liking, however IMO).

So, to make my reply as direct as possible, I personally bemoan the eventual re-branding of HAL as a personal cruiser. The line was a perfect fit for us only a few short years ago; now she is beginning to lose her identity and resemble every other contemporary cruise experience that we are subject to yearly (I will be on the Vision of the Seas in 25 days and really can't get too excited about the pending experience). You see, superstein & others, I cruise ALOT (even as much as 8 times a year), but I still enjoy the cruise experience alone with my wife. I also cruise ALL of the current contemporary and premium cruise products with my groups. If this was all just about *group space*, then I wouldn't really care and just take all my clients to Celebrity and RCI where the group space is phenomenal. It is because of the fond memories that my wife and I have had through the years on HAL that we both will be sorry to witness this re-branding. The memories that we have of our first HAL cruise aboard the Rotterdam in NE/Can will be cherished by both of us forever.

Now, sail7seas and I don't agree on a whole lot (especially in this thread), but she did contribute a very interesting comment that I would like to build on:

"BTW....to the poster(s) who say they are making these changes because HAL's loyal customer base is dying off......you are very mistaken. Have you been aboard an HAL ship lately? Go to a Mariners' Party and see a great many very loyal HAL pax who are in remarkably fit condition. They walk laps around many far younger than they. They are in the gym; they are speed walking Promenade Deck; they are scuba diving and snorkeling; AND they are also playing sedentary card games and doing puzzles. BUT they are packing their bags, boarding airplanes and they are traveling......and traveling often!!! ?How often do the 'young 'uns get to travel each year for the most part? Two weeks? Three? Folks who have more graying hair often have more time and more money."

A truly brilliant observation by sail7seas that answers alot of the rush to change that many think is necessary at HAL. There is no reason to 're-brand' or to reshape the demographic. Did my parents at 25 want to boogie the night away(remember, I'm only 35)? Yes, but they enjoy the quiet, relaxed enviroment that HAL has offered in her long and storied history.

To be continued...

[uncialman]

Hey guys, thanks for your contribution to the thread...

krazy kruisers:

We were told that HAL will still give free popcorn at the theatre when movies are being shown (at least for now).


gizmo:

Yes. Actually all of the subjects have been mentioned previously (back as far as April) including the music etc. The only thing that is new is the news that I had not known previously about the addittional kiddie waterland additions (which I can actually see some advantage to).

[gizmo]

Hey guys, thanks for your contribution to the thread...

gizmo:

Yes. Actually all of the subjects have been mentioned previously (back as far as April) including the music etc. The only thing that is new is the news that I had not known previously about the addittional kiddie waterland additions (which I can actually see some advantage to).
The waterfall is a new one on me too. Let's see, Carnival has the slide, Princess now has that big screen TV, Hal will have a waterfall, RCL has the rock climbing wall and is adding bungee trampolines. NCL is falling behind, but they are busy handling the POA problems right now.

Advantages of the waterfall.
Maybe the waterfall waterland will keep the kids out of the aft pool.
Rev Neal can pratice his skeet shooting.:D

[uncialman]

Hello... I guess we both missed it! Personally, I don't care to be on a ship with these "large groups" - on the Veendam, a few in the the group said they were told there was no dress code (a fact that will make you happy, Superstein :) ) and they couldn't figure out why we were all dressed up. There were about 600 - 700 pax attending the seminars - so now we always ask - we will book a different ship for that reason alone. I felt like they had completely taken over the ship - the crew didn't even realize there were other pax aboard... we will avoid it in the future, whenever possible.?

ekerr19:

If a travel agent has not informed the passenger of the dress codes etc and the individual passenger has not taken the time to read their documents before cruising, then there is a problem on both ends. However, irresponsible actions like this take place with individuals apart from groups and with individual travel agents: this isn't a "group" problem. All of my clients, whether individual cruisers or groups, are fully informed about the enforced dress codes before their cruises.

Groups are not allowed to "take over" a ship by ship services or by the CD aboard the ship unless the ship is chartered. However, people sometimes get upset when they walk into a room given to a group during a "down-time" and think that they should have run of the ship as an individual. Would anyone think to do something like this at a 4 or 5 start hotel? Not likely...



uncialman- Obviously, you have a vested interest in seeing HAL accomodate things in the manner that best suits your business. I am in this for my vacation. I do not care nor desire to spend my cruise with large groups who are always rushing around or asking to cut in the Lido line because they are late to the next seminar... or dressed in jeans or khakis for dinner claiming "no one told us there was a formal night!"

Uncialman replies:

As I have already stated to superstein previously, my real loss is an individual and personal one as someone who is a ceramic-tile collecting, pin-wearing, dam-hat wearing passenger. I loved the old HAL experience and see no reason for drastic, sweeping changes to 're-brand' her. So, please erect a straw-man to attack someplace else.

Secondly, if my only concern was for group space, I would have no problem running to Celebrity or RCI for the bountiful group space and amenities that they provide for groups. That is *not* the thrust behind the thread; it is that I love the traditional HAL product and will hate to think that I will only have sentimentality and memories to bring me back to the line instead of a continued pursuit of excellence and tradition.

Thirdly, as a person who also sells individual cruises, I would like to have more than *one* experience to be able to offer to my clients. Is it just going to be the limited itineraries of Cunard and the modernity of Celebrity for the premium market? Will I just have to lump in HAL with Princess, RCI and NCL? If the re-branding takes place as planned, it will cause many travel agents to pause before reccomending HAL as a premium product.

Fourthly, I thought you had said previously "Sorry, I've been on just a few cruises - but, I've never seen this happen, but then I try to avoid cruising when there are large groups onboard for a purpose other than cruising" and I would ask if you have or have not had problems with groups on-board previously? Seems to be a conflict here for someone who has "only been on just a few cruises."

I still cannot comprehend why so many sales meetings, continuing education and/or other seminars are held on a cruise ship... is it just the economics?

Originally Posted by dakrewser
Wouldn't you like to be able to deduct the price of your cruise on your taxes?
-dave
Duh, I had to ask the stupid question... now I really feel dumb!

uncialman replies:

No, tax breaks are not the reason that the majority of my groups (Ministry groups and family reunions) cruise as they receive no tax benefit for doing so. The reasons are:

1. Cruising provides rooming, food, destinations, and entertainment for one all-inclusive price.
2. Cruising is exciting in and of itself for a lot of folks and will naturally draw more folks that just a "conference" at a hotel
3. The groups are given group space and audio/visual amenities at no cost whereas the hotels charge 'em up
4. The groups find a bond while on the voyages and are much closer to each other by the end of the cruise.
5. Group rates are phenomenal

For the businesses and sales groups, additional advantages are:

1. Tax breaks, no question - but these are the same as land-based resorts
2. They can control their group and have their undivided attention for long periods of time
3. Most sales groups have done the Las Vegas, Lake Tahoe, Atlantic City, Branson route until they puke - they want something different and accommodating
4. It is very easy to get your sales base and agent base excited about a cruise as opposed to another trip to Disney in the middle of the summer

Lastly, I do want to again reiterate that all of the groups that I deal with and those that are associated with Landry and Kling and other group specialists are managed exquisitely. All of our people are well informed of the dress codes and decorum while on-board. As for others, it varies as greatly as it does with individual passengers.

But, then again, that isn't what we were talking about, was it?

[bepsf]

Given all the discussion about this - I don't seriously think that HAL is delibrately gonna screw this one up too badly. If it really is that awful and they get complaints & lose passenger revenue, it's fairly easy to change the music-track, rip out walls again or fire the CEO - and try something else.

Let's wait and see what Steve (Shipcafe) reports back with - I think it could be very interesting...
;)

[sail7seas]

Given all the discussion about this - I don't seriously think that HAL is delibrately gonna screw this one up too badly. If it really is that awful and they get complaints & lose passenger revenue, it's fairly easy to change the music-track, rip out walls again or fire the CEO - and try something else.

Let's wait and see what Steve (Shipcafe) reports back with - I think it could be very interesting...
;)


Brian.....:)

After reading this whole thread, I'm getting a headache.

Have you found your Bartender yet? Can I borrow him for a short while? I think I need a "beverage". :)

[uncialman]

Let's wait and see what Steve (Shipcafe) reports back with - I think it could be very interesting...
;)

Bepsf,

What exactly was Steve supposed to be "reporting back with?" I must have missed that...

[CHRIS3169]

We will be going on our first HAL cruise this spring. I couldn't wait to go sit in the library. Is it not going to be there now? Maybe there never was a library on the Zuiderdam? I was sure looking to forward to a few moments to myself to sit in a library out in the middle of the ocean, just cruising along.

We are thirty somethings and chose HAL because they weren't like Carnival by reputation.

We are just looking for a relaxing, fun, and romantic week away. I would love to take a culinary class or wine tasting class on board, but do we have to pay?

I would really rather pay up front for most of these costs. Maybe we should have looked at other cruise lines. Unfortunately, our local agent wasn't helpful and just pointed us towards RCI. Which is probably fine but I can rock climb and ice skate anywhere, I am on a cruise to relax and enjoy the sights! (OCEAN!) The only other cruise lines we looked at were Cunard, and Celebrity. Celebrity seemed comparible to HAL and Cunard just out of the budget, or out classed anyway. We wanted a suite with some nice amentities but within our reality!
I guess in the end you get what you pay for!
Counting the days!
Chris:p

[shipcafe]

I'll be on the Ryndam 12-4-04 sailing so I'll do a full photologue of the ship including her new enhancements upon my return :)

Steve

[xpcdoojk]

This thread reminds me of chicken little. The sky is falling.:rolleyes:

jc

[uncialman]

This thread reminds me of chicken little. The sky is falling.:rolleyes:

jc

xpcdoojk,

Would you mind backing up your 'drive by' assertion before leaving the thread? It is one thing to disagree, it is quite another to toss blanket assertions and then depart thinking you have accomplished something...

[uncialman]

I'll be on the Ryndam 12-4-04 sailing so I'll do a full photologue of the ship including her new enhancements upon my return :)

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for clarifying. What new visits have you made this summer as the ships are now leaving the Northwest?

[ABoatNerd]

Good cruising everyone:

Up to lately, I was a Celebrity patron considering HA as I wish to purchase a classy, quiet shipboard experience. Celebrity has for the past 2 years been accepting "anyone" in order to get $. The previous Celebrity shipboard "culture" has been slipping (look at past posts and the hostility between the long time Celebrity cruisers and those that "want to do what they want")

So this thread is of interest to me.

Question: WHAT IS THE NA TARGET MARKET?

The proposed changes seem to suggest; more kids and young people. Hope not.

If that is so, I will most certainly not patronize HA - ps I am 47.

_____________

I find this interesting as demographic analysis confirms the passenger of the future is the single/couple "boomer" who has $ and time and high standards - NOT the nuclear family. So I wonder does the staff at HA have a very short time horizon to work with - ie lift passenger volumes in 1 year?

Seems HA is scrambling - too bad

ABoatNerd

[bepsf]

Brian.....:)

After reading this whole thread, I'm getting a headache.

Have you found your Bartender yet? Can I borrow him for a short while? I think I need a "beverage". :)
S7S--

I left him in Seattle...
:(
I too could sure use one of his Espresso Martini's right about now...
;)

[xpcdoojk]

xpcdoojk,

Would you mind backing up your 'drive by' assertion before leaving the thread? It is one thing to disagree, it is quite another to toss blanket assertions and then depart thinking you have accomplished something...
You sure seem to think everyone is talking about you on every thread. I have never been on HAL, but I have cruised several times on other lines, and I have been in the Cruise Critic membership for a long long time so I am not qualified to answer the changes that are so concerning to you. However, change is inevitable and it is hardly unique to HAL. There is a constant complaint of the changes that are occurring through out the industry as a result of the down times following 911 in all of the forums in which I read regularly. It is not unique to HAL, nor to Carnival corporation. It is industry wide. If the changes are bad ones HAL will lose money and market share and then more changes will occur. However, the management of the line is in a position of responsibility for this and not the members of this forum. We can complain all day long about the way we think the cruiseline should be operated, but at the end of the day you will find you are wishing without purpose. If your goal is to make people reconsider supporting HAL and to get them to book another line, you have that right, but I find that a dispicable waste of time yours and mine. If you think you are going to get the CEOs attention by posting anonymously in an internet forum you are deluding yourself, and again wasting time. Feel free to do whatever you want, it makes no difference to me. I will be on my first HAL cruise in about one year, and I will judge the product at that time and no matter what they do regarding elevator music, with a movie theatre or without, with a library or without etc. I will have a good time, because I will be on a great vacation visiting some wonderful ports of call. I will book with HAL again afterwards if it exceeds my previous experiences on other ships or I won't if it doesn't, but I sure am not going to let someone with an apparent axe to grind sway me because the cruise line has dissappointed their expectations.

Trust me, you want me to be a drive by, because while I really don't know you or anything about you except what you have said on this topic in two threads, and my impression may be all wet, but if you feel that you have the final answer on anything that might come up in these forums, I can assure you that you do not.

With this I am off to lunch, have a nice afternoon. Don't worry, I won't drive off, I am always around, and I will gladly discuss any topic in which you desire my opinion.

jc

[uncialman]

jc asserted:

You sure seem to think everyone is talking about you on every thread.

Uncialman replies:

Jc, you made an ad-hominem first statement on this particular thread, one which I did not take as being pointed at me personally, without any substantiation or elucidation. The statement was not a positive contribution to the general discussion even if it was coming from an opposing viewpoint and simply was just a cheap shot at those who happen to feel differently than you; that simply isn't a nice way to join the discussion on a thread.

jc stated:

I have never been on HAL, but I have cruised several times on other lines, and I have been in the Cruise Critic membership for a long long time so I am not qualified to answer the changes that are so concerning to you.

uncialman replies:

So why make a blanket ad-hominem statement as you did? If you don't feel qualified to answer questions regarding the change in a responsible, kindly manner then why make the first contribution to the thread an insult at those that do consider the tradition that HAL has established over years? Not good...

jc stated:


However, change is inevitable and it is hardly unique to HAL. There is a constant complaint of the changes that are occurring through out the industry as a result of the down times following 911 in all of the forums in which I read regularly. It is not unique to HAL, nor to Carnival corporation. It is industry wide.

uncialman replies:

We will all admit that changes will and do occur that are sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, but there are certain changes that when proposed and put into practice will completely change the 'face' of Holland America. Carnival (and I refer to her in this instance as an individual entity instead of the wider, inclusive WLC), is *not* trying to re-brand herself while undergoing change, HAL is.

jc stated:

If the changes are bad ones HAL will lose money and market share and then more changes will occur. However, the management of the line is in a position of responsibility for this and not the members of this forum.

uncialman replies:


Yes, the management of the line is *responsible* but if loyal cruisers of HAL do not speak up about changes that are occuring that will cause them to consider another line then the line will say after they have crumbled, "Well, why didn't you just tell us?" Consumer responsibility sometimes means letting the company know when you are not happy with changes that are occuring. Most folks in sales and marketing like to know what their demographics actually think of their strategies...

jc stated:

We can complain all day long about the way we think the cruiseline should be operated, but at the end of the day you will find you are wishing without purpose.

Uncialman replies:

No, actually there are many instances where enough folks have let it be known that they didn't care for changes or extra charges that directly influenced operations. A classic example is how folks responded to Celebrity Cruiselines charging extra for use of their thassalotherapy pool which had the policy quickly reversed (on this forum). Another example would be how HAL reversed some changes that they had made concerning group policies that were more restrictive than other lines after agents complained (on this forum).

jc asserted:

If your goal is to make people reconsider supporting HAL and to get them to book another line, you have that right, but I find that a dispicable waste of time yours and mine.

uncialman replies:

Thanks for building another straw-man to attack and for trying to 'read into' my motivations, jc. I have already stated what my purpose was in the thread:

I am a loyal HAL cruiser and I don't care for some of the changes that are being implemented. I hope that HAL corporate will see that others are not thrilled about these changes either.

You are a person with a completely free-will (don't quote me on the Revneal) and you can choose to do with your time whatever wish to. This is important to me, if it this subject isn't important to you, you have every right to say so - but please try to do so with substantiation.

jc asserted:

If you think you are going to get the CEOs attention by posting anonymously in an internet forum you are deluding yourself, and again wasting time.

uncialman replies:

Uh, they already have, hence why I don't use my name in here anymore...

jc asserted:

Feel free to do whatever you want, it makes no difference to me. I will be on my first HAL cruise in about one year, and I will judge the product at that time and no matter what they do regarding elevator music, with a movie theatre or without, with a library or without etc. I will have a good time, because I will be on a great vacation visiting some wonderful ports of call.

uncialman replies:

And that is completely your right. However, many folks that have cruised HAL consistently over the years also have the right to *hope* that the line does not try to completey 're-brand' itself. We all have a right to spend our money where and how we want to and we also have a responsibility to tell whatever entity that we have been cruising on what we do and don't like about proposed changes. I have absolutely nothing against Mr. Meadows personally, he might be a great guy and a wonderful human being - I personally wish him only the best. However, I don't like the 're-branding' of this incredible cruise product.

jc asserted:

I will book with HAL again afterwards if it exceeds my previous experiences on other ships or I won't if it doesn't, but I sure am not going to let someone with an apparent axe to grind sway me because the cruise line has dissappointed their expectations.

uncialman replies:

The only axe that I have to grind, as I have repeated consistently, is the 're-branding' of HAL. If you like the changes as some others do on this thread, that's fine and we can disagree. If I don't like the changes and see the re-branding as hurting the long-term success of HAL, I have every right to say so, and I have.

To be continued...

[uncialman]

jc continues:

Trust me, you want me to be a drive by,

Uncialman replies:

Say what?!?! What kind of an empty threat is that?

jc continues:

because while I really don't know you or anything about you except what you have said on this topic in two threads, and my impression may be all wet, but if you feel that you have the final answer on anything that might come up in these forums, I can assure you that you do not.

Uncialman, rather mystified, replies:

Where did I ever give the impression that "I have the final answer on anything that might come up in these forums"? 90% of the threads on this forum are based upon opinion. This particular thread is based upon my opinions of changes that are fact. That doesn't mean that my opinion is fact or that it is infallible, but the information regarding the 're-branding' are facts, whether you want them to be or not. Sorry...

jc stated:

With this I am off to lunch, have a nice afternoon. Don't worry, I won't drive off, I am always around, and I will gladly discuss any topic in which you desire my opinion.

Uncialman replies:

Opinions, wether in the affirmative or negative, are always welcome in any of the threads here. however, there is a big differnce between an opinion and an assertion and thus far you have made several personal ad-hominem statements to those of us who differ from, well, whatever your opinion is, without you ever personally cruising HAL.

That being said, I gladly welcome all *positive*contributions to the debate no matter what the opinion of the poster may be.

[michmike]

can't we all just play nice??

[uncialman]

can't we all just play nice??

I'm all for playing nice!

[Sailure]

So, is this an effort to try to become all things to all people? It's not the best move, IMO, since they'll alienate some people in an effort to attract different people.
Seems to me HAL is recognizing that they make more money from the Carnival Crowd and that the age of the crowd numbers more than the "older" more sophisticated crowd.

It's all about the money!:(

[HeatherInFlorida]

From my perspective as an unbiased outside observer (meaning I have no "inside" information), I believe that JC made some very good points. And in the beginning I found this thread informative and interesting. I applauded Uncialman's input. But now the big guns are coming out and it's not pretty; it becomes unattractive and unprofitable when it gets obnoxious.

Frankly, I'm remembering when I cruised without the benefit of this forum and I have to say I had an amazing time on several different cruiselines. Maybe one can have just a little too much information.

I'm not sure what's going on here, but it certainly doesn't serve most of us here anymore.

Uncialman, I know you most likely could care less about my observation, but your post was too long for most of us to bother reading. So if you made a good point, it was unfortunately lost in its lack of brevity.

[tjcletsgo]

Amen!

[uncialman]

[QUOTE=HeatherInFlorida]From my perspective as an unbiased outside observer (meaning I have no "inside" information), I believe that JC made some very good points. And in the beginning I found this thread informative and interesting. I applauded Uncialman's input. But now the big guns are coming out and it's not pretty; it becomes unattractive and unprofitable when it gets obnoxious.

Heather,

I posted the thread with good, honorable intentions. Some folks are wanting to make this a *personal* attack instead of sticking with the issue at hand. I'm sorry if the post was long but jc, IMHO, did nothing but just pasted a huge ad-hominem that deserved a solid, reasoned response. I respect your opinion, but I do care about this issue and don't want to be mis-characterized by someone who just pops in the thread and delivers insults and threats. I really don't see where jc made any positive contributions.

As you can see, it has worked to their advantage. We are now off topic and just talking about personal matters.

sigh...

[Orcrone]

Frankly, I'm remembering when I cruised without the benefit of this forum and I have to say I had an amazing time on several different cruiselines. Maybe one can have just a little too much information.I always enjoy reading your posts, and these are some very wise words. I can't remember whether I'm going to have the time of my life because of the wonderfully, attentive service I will receive, or if I'm going to be throwing someone overboard due to my frustration at the horrible service attributable to the cutbacks at HAL.:confused:

As it is, I'm going to head out on vacation in 2 1/2 weeks and most probably have an excellent, although not perfect (what is?) vacation.:) All my worries will be on that piece of land that occupies the space on the other side of the dock.

[xpcdoojk]

From my perspective as an unbiased outside observer (meaning I have no "inside" information), I believe that JC made some very good points. And in the beginning I found this thread informative and interesting. I applauded Uncialman's input. But now the big guns are coming out and it's not pretty; it becomes unattractive and unprofitable when it gets obnoxious.

Frankly, I'm remembering when I cruised without the benefit of this forum and I have to say I had an amazing time on several different cruiselines. Maybe one can have just a little too much information.

I'm not sure what's going on here, but it certainly doesn't serve most of us here anymore.

Uncialman, I know you most likely could care less about my observation, but your post was too long for most of us to bother reading. So if you made a good point, it was unfortunately lost in its lack of brevity.
Heather all I can say is ditto!

Even though I felt like I was in court getting a grilling cross examination by a slick trial lawyer, I glazed over after about the third jc stated or asserted or continued. I still don't know you, uncialman, although you do seem awfully familiar. Trust me you might be the final word on a lot of topics with your posting style because frankly there wasn't enough of interest in those posts to hold my attention to the end!:p :D

I can't tell you how many of these crusades I have watched over the years in these forums that I just shake my head in wonder when someone starts on another one. For how long are all of the crusaders going to throw the Celebrity pools out as their great victory. Nobody used the pools when they paid for them on the Millenium, I was on one of those ships, and the pool was almost always empty. It isn't even crowded now that it is free.

jc

[jimmy2x]

Uncialman - Just wanted to thank your for taking the time to try to be informative. I would not pretend to have any idea how much influence these boards have on management decisions, but would certainly hope that there is SOME degree. Count me as one who really enoyed the "old" HAL. Unfortunately the reviews, especially of the Vista class ships are not encouraging. If the plans that you have indicated come to pass on the "S" class ships, afraid we are gone permenently.

[superstein61]

Originally Posted by superstein61
Ahh ha - so really what you are saying is you have a personal interest in some of these changes - such as the Wajang Theater being converted to something a group may not use.

Hello... I guess we both missed it! Personally, I don't care to be on a ship with these "large groups" - on the Veendam, a few in the the group said they were told there was no dress code (a fact that will make you happy, Superstein :) ) and they couldn't figure out why we were all dressed up. There were about 600 - 700 pax attending the seminars - so now we always ask - we will book a different ship for that reason alone. I felt like they had completely taken over the ship - the crew didn't even realize there were other pax aboard... we will avoid it in the future, whenever possible.
I agree with you ekerr. I feel the same way. The ship will naturally cater to the large group and other pax will be slighted.

uncialman- Obviously, you have a vested interest in seeing HAL accomodate things in the manner that best suits your business. I am in this for my vacation. I do not care nor desire to spend my cruise with large groups who are always rushing around or asking to cut in the Lido line because they are late to the next seminar... or dressed in jeans or khakis for dinner claiming "no one told us there was a formal night!"


AGREED !!!

[superstein61]

And, of course, Superstein........this is merely your humble opinion. Entitled to it you certainly are but to present it in such a way as to be the "definitive word" would not be your intention, I am quite sure.

S7S - I don't think I presented my opinion as the definitive word. It really is just my opinion. Everyone has different likes and dislikes. I actually like many of the changes listed and don't have a feeling one way or the other on a few others.

Some (many) of these new 'offerings' were presented to us at the Mariner's Party on Zuiderdam last week by the Hotel Manager, Diderik Van Regemorter. He received many rounds of applause as he described many of the 'soon to be' Signature of Excellence ?"Improvements"? Are they Improvements? Yes, IMO, some certainly are. Some do not think so.

I have no problem with a 'for charge' Windjammer Cafe replacing Java Cafe. I assuredly understand some do not like it. We have tried the Windjammer on a number of occasions and found it soooo good, it is worth it IMO

Card Room replaced. Okay by me. I have never played a board game or a round of bridge in that room during any of our many, many cruises. Will some miss it? Yes, of course.

The Library being changed will matter to me and I am sorry to see that happen.

We have just about never seen a movie in the Wajang but I always liked knowing it was there. I am sorry it will be changed but I DO LIKE THE IDEA OF THE COOKING DEMONSTRATIONS. They will be bringing aboard Celebrity Chefs and I am far more likely to enjoy seeing Emeril cook than I ever enjoyed sitting in a movie theater on a cruise. I'd far rather do any number of other things than sit in a movie when cruising. JMHO......... They will be pleasing some of the people. They will be displeasing some of the people.

You can Never please ALL of the people ALL of the time.



Actually I think we agree on more here than we disagree on

[HeatherInFlorida]

[/i]


I agree with you ekerr. I feel the same way. The ship will naturally cater to the large group and other pax will be slighted.


AGREED !!!
Be still, my heart!!! Just before signing off to get ready to watch the debates I see the word "agree" appear twice in one Superstein post!!!:eek:

This may just be too much for this "old fogie"!!!;) If I'm not here tomorrow, you'll know why.

[superstein61]

Superstein stated:

Ahh ha - so really what you are saying is you have a personal interest in some of these changes - such as the Wajang Theater being converted to something a group may not use.

uncialman replies:

I must admit that I really struggled with whether or not to respond to your 'drive-by' assertions and accusations. It appears that you would prefer to take this particular thread into the realm of ad-hominem which I pray it does not descend into. These forums provide a nice opportunity, then, to ask questions, seek clarification, and interact, particularly over the only voice that really matters in these discussions - the opinion of each individual cruiser and the decision he or she will make as to where to spend their next cruise dollar. It should be noted, though, that asking questions and discussing issues with one another is not the same as basing objections on caricatures that misrepresent the position you are seeking to address.


Ummmm - drive by assertions and accusations ???

lets see - I make a post stating my opinion of the changes - most of which I think are for the better.

then I simply point out that you have an obvious conflict of interest as a Group travel Provider that is clouding your views on this subject. i wouldn't have said a word about that if you mentioned it in your initial post - but you didn't. 50 some posts go by before you disclose your conflist. And I point it out. Whats so drive by about that?????


Now, to answer your assertion:

No. That is not the main cruxt of my displeasure of the recent moves by HAL. I first approached this entire change with an attempt to clarify rumors that have been circulating about the future of HAL and whether or not they would begin 're-branding' their tried and true product. I first approach my displeasure with the measures brought by Mr. Meadows as an individual cruiser instead of from an agent or agency owner standpoint. From that perspective, as I have already stated, my wife and I have loved the Holland America Product from our very first cruise aboard the Rotterdam a few years back until now. We thought at the time that HAL was the absolute perfect fit for us and we have chosen to do our own personal cruising aboard HAL ever since. My wife and I have enjoyed some fabulous personal cruise vacations on the Zaandam, Veendam and Volendam by ourselves without bringing groups in tow (the Zuiderdam was not to my liking, however IMO).

So, to make my reply as direct as possible, I personally bemoan the eventual re-branding of HAL as a personal cruiser. The line was a perfect fit for us only a few short years ago; now she is beginning to lose her identity and resemble every other contemporary cruise experience that we are subject to yearly (I will be on the Vision of the Seas in 25 days and really can't get too excited about the pending experience). You see, superstein & others, I cruise ALOT (even as much as 8 times a year), but I still enjoy the cruise experience alone with my wife. I also cruise ALL of the current contemporary and premium cruise products with my groups. If this was all just about *group space*, then I wouldn't really care and just take all my clients to Celebrity and RCI where the group space is phenomenal. It is because of the fond memories that my wife and I have had through the years on HAL that we both will be sorry to witness this re-branding. The memories that we have of our first HAL cruise aboard the Rotterdam in NE/Can will be cherished by both of us forever.

Now, sail7seas and I don't agree on a whole lot (especially in this thread), but she did contribute a very interesting comment that I would like to build on:

"BTW....to the poster(s) who say they are making these changes because HAL's loyal customer base is dying off......you are very mistaken. Have you been aboard an HAL ship lately? Go to a Mariners' Party and see a great many very loyal HAL pax who are in remarkably fit condition. They walk laps around many far younger than they. They are in the gym; they are speed walking Promenade Deck; they are scuba diving and snorkeling; AND they are also playing sedentary card games and doing puzzles. BUT they are packing their bags, boarding airplanes and they are traveling......and traveling often!!! ?How often do the 'young 'uns get to travel each year for the most part? Two weeks? Three? Folks who have more graying hair often have more time and more money."

A truly brilliant observation by sail7seas that answers alot of the rush to change that many think is necessary at HAL. There is no reason to 're-brand' or to reshape the demographic. Did my parents at 25 want to boogie the night away(remember, I'm only 35)? Yes, but they enjoy the quiet, relaxed enviroment that HAL has offered in her long and storied history.

To be continued...
Well Uncialman - I won't go back over every post you have made in this thread and try to prove or dispell your above assertion. But i do believe - een though you state otherwise - that part of your concern is driven by your arranging group travel as a living. As you state - perhaps not all of it - but truly you can't tell me that none of your concern is based on that - especially when you bemoan the loss of the Wajang theater for use by large groups

[superstein61]

Be still, my heart!!! Just before signing off to get ready to watch the debates I see the word "agree" appear twice in one Superstein post!!!:eek:

This may just be too much for this "old fogie"!!!;) If I'm not here tomorrow, you'll know why.
Keep the Nitro pills nearby :D

[ekerr19]

Keep the Nitro pills nearby :DSuperstein-

I must admit to being shocked as well! You and I have the tendency to agree to disagree... but I respect the arguement, which at times gives me NEW food for thought, so keep them coming! :D

Since I already know who I am voting for - and have also had enough of each party line - I am tuning out the debate this evening, so I am still online.

[estj]

I agree with many of these comments. My 40-something husband and I loved HAL, and so did our two children and 60-something grandparents on our Statendam Alaska cruise. In fact, we're headed to the Caribbean without the family in a couple weeks on HAL. We did Carnival once, and I'd rather stay home than be subjected to that experience again.

I, for one, would pay a little more to keep the service levels and have good food on a laid-back cruise experience that is not offered by the "contemporary" lines.

On the other hand, not all change is bad. I'm glad I don't have the job of making these decisions.

Beth
Beth...I second your thoughts!

Love HAL...and while we have recognized some changes...still feel we are getting what we have paid for and expect. Change IS good...but we certianly don't want HAL to mirror Carnival! (ugh!). Sailing with you on the "O" in November...let's talk about our experience. Perhaps loyal HAL cruisers like us CAN have an influence!
Cass

[uncialman]

Ummmm - drive by assertions and accusations ???


lets see - I make a post stating my opinion of the changes - most of which I think are for the better.???

Uncialman replies:

Yes, Superstein, the constant 'drive-by' statements like "I agree" and "Well Said Shipcafe !!!" or the comparably novelesque (from you, that is) "Ahh ha - so really what you are saying is you have a personal interest in some of these changes - such as the Wajang Theater being converted to something a group may not use" that have no substantiation and are simply trying to read into *my* motivations do not help move the dialogue, pro or con, along in any way. It's called an "ad-hominem" superstein, or an attack against a person. The very fact that this entire thread has been reduced to those this kind of argumentation is truly regrettable.

If you had simply stayed on track in this thread with your opinions about the changes, that would have been fine. But instead, you chose to slander me in this thread by accusing me of having motivations that I have clearly stated that I do not. The Board Guidelines clearly state:

"Cruise Critic is committed to providing an online environment that is free from these types of harassing postings. Please, don't attack another poster personally."

Which you have by misrepresenting me in this thread and creating a false straw-man to attack. I regret that I have had to spend so much time responding to this kind of personal attack that you got the ball rolling on.

and...


" If you disagree with someone, respond to the subject, not the person."

And you have decided to make this personal for which really is appalling to me.



continued...

[ekerr19]

uncialman, I think you are taking this thread and Superstein far too seriously.

Superstein loves a good debate and will make quite an effort to get his point across. Initially, I've disagreed with him on many occasions - however, he has managed to persuade me to think and consider something from his point of view, which I believe is a good thing.

We all have differing opinions. The ability to step "outside the box" and consider someone's view can only be positive.

At the end of the day, you may still believe you are right - Superstein may still believe he is right, but if you both took a moment to consider the other opinion, and respect each other, regardless of differing opinions - I think each is a better person for having done so.

You should not be appalled because people on this board may disagree with you. :) It really is NOT personal...

[uncialman]

then I simply point out that you have an obvious conflict of interest as a Group travel Provider that is clouding your views on this subject. i wouldn't have said a word about that if you mentioned it in your initial post - but you didn't. 50 some posts go by before you disclose your conflist. And I point it out. Whats so drive by about that?????

Uncialman replies:

I have repeated and repeated time and time again that being the owner of a Group Travel provider was *not* my motivation in beginning this thread. As I have already stated, my wife and I personally love HAL and Holland America has been our favorite cruise line since the time that we embarked on our first cruise aboard the Rotterdam in New York City some years ago. Since then, the cruise line that I have reccomended far more than any other to single cruisers, couples and groups has been Holland America Line. If you would have checked my previous posts, you would have seen that I started a thread that was based soley on the changes in ambiance and public room and pool music. Those are the changes that truly grieve me the most (as strange as it may seem to some of you). You and I can disagree about those changes, but let's not mischaracterize one another unfairly, ok?

Superstein stated:

Well Uncialman - I won't go back over every post you have made in this thread and try to prove or dispell your above assertion. But i do believe - een though you state otherwise - that part of your concern is driven by your arranging group travel as a living. As you state - perhaps not all of it - but truly you can't tell me that none of your concern is based on that - especially when you bemoan the loss of the Wajang theater for use by large groups

Uncialman replies:

I have never said anywhere that I wasn't upset about the fact that group space on these small ships will be even more limited (which should be a concern to the individual cruiser as other space is utilized out of neccessity ( whether it's my group or someone else's, groups are not going away) than they are presently. However, as I have said, this is not and is was not my motivation in starting this thread.

My wife and I don't like to cruise Princess personally because:

a. The cabins are relatively small
b. The showers are the size of a coffe mug
c. the balconies are the size of a welcome mat
d. the constant pushing of artwork all over the stairways is irritating
e. the crowds, at times, can be absolutely overwhelming
f. they nickle and dime you to death
g. the dining room food is below Perkins quality

My wife and I don't cruise RCI personally because:

a. their cabins make Princess cabins look like enormous mansions
b. the constant, incessant, irritating pop-rock music played everywhere
c. the lines and overcrowding everywhere
d. the nickle and diming

My wife and I don't cruise NCL personally because:

a. Their fleet is sometimes less than clean and rather old
b. Their new ships have waaaay to many restaurants and bars that can be quite confusing
c. Freestyle cruising has taken the elegance out of the cruising experience
d. their accommodations are quite uneven
e. the food in the main dining room is the worst food that I have ever had on any of the big eight
f. They don't nickle and dime you to death, they Lincoln and Hamilton you to death

My wife and I didn't formerly prefer Celebrity because:

a. Their cabins are a bit smaller and their restrooms are a not quite the size of HAL's
b. I am not a big fan of ultra-modern art
c. Overcrowding in the Lido
d. We loved the free popcorn and treats at the Java Cafe on HAL and Celeb just "shows a movie" in their theatre

My wife and I preferred HAL because:

a. Their cabins were the largest of any premium market line
b. I personally prefer the decor
c. I loved the ambiance
d. We love the Crow's nest coming in and out of ports
e. the kindness and attention the staff brings
f. The lack of nickle and diming
g. the lack of pre-fab fun
h. the opportunity to sit by the pool and read in peace and quiet
I. While the food isn't as good as Celebrity, they do a nice job with their cuisine
j. the slow and easy pace of the cruise
h. honestly, the lack of kids onboard (I'm sorry to say it, but it is a factor for us)

So, let's please not continue with the ad-hominem misrepresentations; I love HAL and truly hope that she stays with the consistency that she has shown through the years. That is why I started this thread....

[uncialman]

uncialman, I think you are taking this thread and Superstein far too seriously.

Superstein loves a good debate and will make quite an effort to get his point across. Initially, I've disagreed with him on many occasions - however, he has managed to persuade me to think and consider something from his point of view, which I believe is a good thing.

We all have differing opinions. The ability to step "outside the box" and consider someone's view can only be positive.

At the end of the day, you may still believe you are right - Superstein may still believe he is right, but if you both took a moment to consider the other opinion, and respect each other, regardless of differing opinions - I think each is a better person for having done so.

You should not be appalled because people on this board may disagree with you. :) It really is NOT personal...

ekrr:

Thanks for your kind and reasonable post.

The only thing that I found appalling was the misreprentation of my motivations and the focusing of the thread on me and not the subject at hand. I am a moderator on two theological forums that are characterized by a tremendous amount of passion and heat where disagreements are the norm. However, we always draw the line at trying to misrepresent what someones motivations are. We should take eachother at our word. Next month, I am moderating another major public debate where this will be one of the ground rules for both the affirmative and the negative. Debates are a major part of my life - we just need to be fair and respect those that we engage in debate (friendly or otherwise).

I hope Superstein agrees.

[ekerr19]

ekrr:

Thanks for your kind and reasonable post.

The only thing that I found appalling was the misreprentation of my motivations and the focusing of the thread on me and not the subject at hand. I am a moderator on two theological forums that are characterized by a tremendous amount of passion and heat where disagreements are the norm. However, we always draw the line at trying to misrepresent what someones motivations are. We should take eachother at our word. Next month, I am moderating another major public debate where this will be one of the ground rules for both the affirmative and the negative. Debates are a major part of my life - we just need to be fair and respect those that we engage in debate (friendly or otherwise).

I hope Superstein agrees.
I do not feel you have mis-represented yourself. Initially, I was a bit confused, but you have taken the time to educate the board with your position.

While I cannot (nor would presume to) speak for Superstein, I have found him to be a reasonable individual in most circumstances. :)

[superstein61]

Superstein-

I must admit to being shocked as well! You and I have the tendency to agree to disagree... but I respect the arguement, which at times gives me NEW food for thought, so keep them coming! :D

Since I already know who I am voting for - and have also had enough of each party line - I am tuning out the debate this evening, so I am still online.
Sometimes surprises happen :D .

But I had to take a break for the debate. Even though I know who I am voting for, I had to watch just to see what lies the scary liberal from, ohhh never mind ;)

[superstein61]

Uncialman replies:

Yes, Superstein, the constant 'drive-by' statements like "I agree" and "Well Said Shipcafe !!!" or the comparably novelesque (from you, that is) "Ahh ha - so really what you are saying is you have a personal interest in some of these changes - such as the Wajang Theater being converted to something a group may not use" that have no substantiation and are simply trying to read into *my* motivations do not help move the dialogue, pro or con, along in any way. It's called an "ad-hominem" superstein, or an attack against a person. The very fact that this entire thread has been reduced to those this kind of argumentation is truly regrettable.

If you had simply stayed on track in this thread with your opinions about the changes, that would have been fine. But instead, you chose to slander me in this thread by accusing me of having motivations that I have clearly stated that I do not. The Board Guidelines clearly state:

"Cruise Critic is committed to providing an online environment that is free from these types of harassing postings. Please, don't attack another poster personally."

Which you have by misrepresenting me in this thread and creating a false straw-man to attack. I regret that I have had to spend so much time responding to this kind of personal attack that you got the ball rolling on.

and...


" If you disagree with someone, respond to the subject, not the person."

And you have decided to make this personal for which really is appalling to me.



continued...
You have GOT to be kidding.

Unreal, utterly unreal. What kool-aid are you drinking these days?

[superstein61]

uncialman, I think you are taking this thread and Superstein far too seriously.

Superstein loves a good debate and will make quite an effort to get his point across. Initially, I've disagreed with him on many occasions - however, he has managed to persuade me to think and consider something from his point of view, which I believe is a good thing.

We all have differing opinions. The ability to step "outside the box" and consider someone's view can only be positive.

At the end of the day, you may still believe you are right - Superstein may still believe he is right, but if you both took a moment to consider the other opinion, and respect each other, regardless of differing opinions - I think each is a better person for having done so.

You should not be appalled because people on this board may disagree with you. :) It really is NOT personal...
Thanks ekerr !!! And I agree.

oops - that statement may get me in trouble with Uncialman as a drive by-attack.

And to think I never would have thought the words "I agree" would be considered an attack.

WOW.

BTW - I have no problem with Uncialman having a different opinion - everyone is entitled to theirs. But I can't quite understand why he is so appalled that I like the changes and agree with others who also like them.

[superstein61]

Uncialman replies:


I have never said anywhere that I wasn't upset about the fact that group space on these small ships will be even more limited (which should be a concern to the individual cruiser as other space is utilized out of neccessity ( whether it's my group or someone else's, groups are not going away) than they are presently. However, as I have said, this is not and is was not my motivation in starting this thread.

Well glad to see we are back on topic. And again, like a certain politician's rhetoric, you can say one thing but your actions belie something else. Thats just my humble opinion reading this from afar. Maybe if I knew you better, I wouldn't have that impression - so please don't take this personally. But I just get the impression in reading this thread that quite honestly, your role as a group travel consultant does influence at least some (not saying all or even the majority - but some) of your concerns here. again, JMHO

[ekerr19]

Thanks ekerr !!! And I agree.

oops - that statement may get me in trouble with Uncialman as a drive by-attack.

And to think I never would have thought the words "I agree" would be considered an attack.

WOW.

BTW - I have no problem with Uncialman having a different opinion - everyone is entitled to theirs. But I can't quite understand why he is so appalled that I like the changes and agree with others who also like them.
No problem, ;) I've given you my share of grief over the past few months - I can give credit when credit is due... :D

[michmike]

Lord!! let's beat this issue to death

[uncialman]

Superstein stated:

You have GOT to be kidding.

Unreal, utterly unreal. What kool-aid are you drinking these days?

uncialman replies:

Once again, superstein, let's please try to advance the dialogue past the ad-hominem stage. As we are both apparently on the same side on political matters, wouldn't we both agree that the correct path to take in discourse and debate is to focus on the facts of the subject and our opinions thereof instead of throwing insults?


BTW - I have no problem with Uncialman having a different opinion - everyone is entitled to theirs. But I can't quite understand why he is so appalled that I like the changes and agree with others who also like them.

Uncialman replies:

If you read exegetically what I have stated in my previous post when I made the comment, I am not 'appalled' at you disagreeing with me. What I don't care for is someone misrepresenting my motivations. If we can get back on topic, I'll be glad to engage in friendly debate concerning the changes at HAL.

Well glad to see we are back on topic. And again, like a certain politician's rhetoric, you can say one thing but your actions belie something else. Thats just my humble opinion reading this from afar. Maybe if I knew you better, I wouldn't have that impression - so please don't take this personally. But I just get the impression in reading this thread that quite honestly, your role as a group travel consultant does influence at least some (not saying all or even the majority - but some) of your concerns here. again, JMHO

uncialman replies:

I think that I have been consistent in stating my motivations (which are not the subject of this thread or should they be - according to the forum rules). Once again, I own a nation-wide agency, I'm not just a travel consultant and originally came from the perspective of the individual traveller as opposed to someone who is the owner of an agency. Again, I love the old HAL; I'd hate to see her change. So, can we debate and argue over the subject matter of the changes at HAL and leave the attempt to read eachother's minds behind?

Can we start the conversation with why you personally think that HAL should advance with the plan to have pop-rock played in the common areas and the pools? Can we dialogue on this (As we have done so on other threads)?

[superstein61]

Superstein stated:



uncialman replies:

Once again, superstein, let's please try to advance the dialogue past the ad-hominem stage. As we are both apparently on the same side on political matters, wouldn't we both agree that the correct path to take in discourse and debate is to focus on the facts of the subject and our opinions thereof instead of throwing insults?


I have no problem with that - but it seems you have been the one not advancing the dialogue past the ad hominem stage. I simply posted what I liked about the changes and my agreement with a few other posts




uncialman replies:

I think that I have been consistent in stating my motivations (which are not the subject of this thread or should they be - according to the forum rules). Once again, I own a nation-wide agency, I'm not just a travel consultant and originally came from the perspective of the individual traveller as opposed to someone who is the owner of an agency. Again, I love the old HAL; I'd hate to see her change. So, can we debate and argue over the subject matter of the changes at HAL and leave the attempt to read eachother's minds behind?
And I think I have been consistent in stating my position that I find it hard to believe that your position does not influence your thinking even just a little bit in this regard. Try as we might, we are all human, and it is natural for everyone's experience, background, etc to weigh in on their opinions

Can we start the conversation with why you personally think that HAL should advance with the plan to have pop-rock played in the common areas and the pools? Can we dialogue on this (As we have done so on other threads)?
Ummm - whats to debate. I like pop rock music. You apparantly do not. Pop rock will attract a younger crowd - which I believe is good for HAL overall. I am sure HAL conducted proper market research and is making these changes geared toward what their targeted pax base likes and wants in a cruise line.

[xpcdoojk]

I think I have figured out why uncialman is so unhappy, with drive by things.

He/she wants to have a clear undisputed thread for the HAL management to read that will say that everyone here at Cruise Critic is appalled by the changes listed by uncialman. In other words he is upset that we are not helping him with his crusade. He is desiring a rollover by HAL management to the new management ala uncialman management. Gee, I wonder why when they were looking for a new CEO that they didn't go and try to recruit him?

I guess that I didn't realize that this is why we post in this forum?:confused: Sorry, I see a crusade and I just have to be on the other side when I see the customer try to tell a private company how to run its business. Especially, when they are trying to enlist my response for that purpose. In other words, please don't post to this thread unless you will agree and support my position. :D Unless you have a significant ownership in the business you don't get to dictate how it operates. HAL and CCL may or may not manage their company well, but it is theirs to manage. If you want to discuss if you like or dislike something about a cruiseline, then I am with you 100%, but I don't think this thread is about that at all. :rolleyes:

jc <----- can't figure out why I didn't get cross examined by the "celebrity success", and I will try harder in the future.:p

[HeatherInFlorida]

Ekerr and Superstein have got a "thang" goin' on ;)

But it is nice to see you two getting along so well:) ! Was it the hour, Ekerr? You find Superstein to be "reasonable"?

Ooooo I don't think I can go that far athough I will say he is absolutely right about certain things:o . And I believe he may have met his match in Uncialman. They can go at this for days and still end up back in the same place. Sure doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother them. We all pick our own poison. And JC steps in from time to time just to add a little zest. I'm staying faaaaaaaar away from it.

But I am curious, Uncialman (and I do appreciate your post to me awhile back, btw) but why do you refer to yourself by name? Is it to take the personalization out of it? The truth is that in the end everything posted here is our own personal perception of what we know, read or observe and nothing more. When you say "Uncialman replies" instead of "I think" or "I believe", it leaves me feeling a bit distant from you. Perhaps that is your goal, but I'd be curious in your reply.

[ekerr19]

Ekerr and Superstein have got a "thang" goin' on ;)

But it is nice to see you two getting along so well:) ! Was it the hour, Ekerr? You find Superstein to be "reasonable"?

[/color][/size][/font]

Heather-

I thought I went to bed last night at 10:30pm... hmmmm the gremlins must have taken over my computer!

I love Superstein, you know that! I've had some of my best arguments with him... ;)

[uncialman]

I have no problem with that - but it seems you have been the one not advancing the dialogue past the ad hominem stage. I simply posted what I liked about the changes and my agreement with a few other posts

Uncialman replies:

No, superstein, please don't try to turn the tables on the discussion at hand. I have tried to appeal to your intellect instead of going back and forth over what *my* intentions and motivations are in this thread. I have tried to be as kind and charitable as possible with you through this entire thread.

Superstein stated:


And I think I have been consistent in stating my position that I find it hard to believe that your position does not influence your thinking even just a little bit in this regard. Try as we might, we are all human, and it is natural for everyone's experience, background, etc to weigh in on their opinions

So, we continue down this road with a non sequitur...

5 months ago, I began a thread in regards to HAL's change in ambiance and public room music which was met with both concern and disagreement. You and I disagreed over what the result of such a change would mean for HAL and the benefits or negatives thereof. Was that thread motivated by my concern over losing group space? No.

7 months ago, I wrote a lengthy somewhat disgruntled review of the Zuiderdam which recieved both thanks and disagreement. Was any of my post about the Vista Class ships or my disatisfaction with the Zuiderdam any way influenced by my concern over losing group space? No.

My concern in both of my former posts was that HAL is losing it's identity that I love and cherish. The fact that I mentioned group space several posts into this thread *has absolutely nothing* to do for my reasons for beginning this thread.


Ummm - whats to debate. I like pop rock music. You apparantly do not. Pop rock will attract a younger crowd - which I believe is good for HAL overall. I am sure HAL conducted proper market research and is making these changes geared toward what their targeted pax base likes and wants in a cruise line.

Uncialman replies:

A whole bunch, actually:

1. What effects to different music styles have on the psychology of the passive listener?
2. What music styles do the current base of cruisers on HAL prefer?
3. What impact will the change in music have upon the total ambiance of the HAL product?
4. What ambiance should be synonymous with a 'premium' product?

These questions are most certainly what the marketing team at HAL have in front of them as well...

[starysacz]

How about 5 p.m. for the bartender? Miss my Stoli and 7 with lime and CC with ginger. Have to wait to May for the Maasdam and July for the Maasdam from Boston to Boston - 35 days. We will be short 5 days from our 300 by then. Have to find a 7 day somewhere in between. We usually have our beverages at the Crow's Nest before early dinner.:D

[Orcrone]

Did Superstein and Uncialman purchase unlimited passes to this Merry-Go-Round?:rolleyes:

[ekerr19]

"let's try again?"

uncialman - in all reality this thread is toast! Burnt toast for that matter - I think more than enough has been said.

You and Superstein agree to disagree - I agree with Superstein in this case and I know I won't change my mind, and I think chances of him changing his are like, slim & none. :)

Maybe it's time to move on to a fresh topic. No disrespect intended. :)

[ekerr19]

Did Superstein and Uncialman purchase unlimited passes to this Merry-Go-Round?:rolleyes:

I think Superstein got off the ride - awhile ago ;)

[xpcdoojk]

I have been driven to doing a tiny amount of research due to this thread, and therefore it must have some value.

I did a dictionary search for the word uncial (which I recognized as a word I had heard, but which I had zero clue as to its meaning).

Here is the definition used as a noun according to Merriam-Webster.

Main Entry: uncial
Function: noun
1 : a handwriting used especially in Greek and Latin manuscripts of the 4th to the 8th centuries A.D. and made with somewhat rounded separated majuscules but having cursive forms for some letters
2 : an uncial letter
3 : a manuscript written in uncial

here is an example of roman uncials

http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/uncial.gif


and then as an adjective

Main Entry: un·cial
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin unciales (litterae) uncial (letters), from Latin, plural of uncialis weighing an ounce, from uncia twelfth part, ounce -- more at OUNCE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ounce)
: written in the style or size of uncials (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=uncials)
- un·cial·ly adverb

Unfortunately, at the end of my short research studies, I am no closer than I was to understanding anything at all of, uncialman and, alas, I am quite dissappointed. :D

jc

[uncialman]

I think I have figured out why uncialman is so unhappy, with drive by things.

Uncialman replies:

There is no real way to keep an apologia like this from addressing, however obliquely, the fact that I have been stating something that I believe to be important to me personally, and that I have done so in a way that I thought would be helpful. No, I don't believe that you have figured it out yet, and you probably won't, unless you can cast aside whatever bias you have to those who prefer a product that they care deeply about to remain consistent.


He/she wants to have a clear undisputed thread for the HAL management to read that will say that everyone here at Cruise Critic is appalled by the changes listed by uncialman. .

Uncialman replies:

No, once again, please don't try to put motivations into my posts that don't exist. I was 'appalled' because someone was attempting to erect a straw-man to attack instead of engaging in *honest* debate about the issues set forth in this thread. If someone chooses to disagree with my take *on the issues at hand*, that's fine. I honestly expected and wanted that sort of dialogue to take place. But personal attacks....no.


In other words he is upset that we are not helping him with his crusade. He is desiring a rollover by HAL management to the new management ala uncialman management. Gee, I wonder why when they were looking for a new CEO that they didn't go and try to recruit him?

Uncialman replies:

Wrong again, jc. I am hoping that current management will not change the heart of the cruise product that has been supported and loved by thousands of loyal Mariner society fans for years on end. Secondly, Mr. Meadows is the new VP of sales and marketing and Mr. Lanterman still continues to be the CEO and Mr. Kruse (great name) continues in his position as CFO. For that matter, many DSM's and RSM's are not thrilled about the current marketing strategy either. Why you choose to end your paragraph with another ad hominem inductive fallacy is beyond me.


I guess that I didn't realize that this is why we post in this forum?:confused: Sorry, I see a crusade and I just have to be on the other side when I see the customer try to tell a private company how to run its business. Especially, when they are trying to enlist my response for that purpose. In other words, please don't post to this thread unless you will agree and support my position. :D Unless you have a significant ownership in the business you don't get to dictate how it operates. HAL and CCL may or may not manage their company well, but it is theirs to manage. If you want to discuss if you like or dislike something about a cruiseline, then I am with you 100%, but I don't think this thread is about that at all. :rolleyes:

Uncialman replies:

I guess you would have told Coca Cola corp. to keep on making "new Coke" and would have told everyone to keep quiet about their displeasure?

JC, this thread is about things that I currently do not like (HAL instituting pop-rock music in the public rooms, charging extra for services that were previously gratis) and about their plans to carry on even further with measures that will take them out of a premium market. When I first came to the HAL forum some 5 years ago, it was for the purposes of encouraging others to sail HAL and to experience what my wife and I considered the best cruise product, dollar for dollar, that was in the marketplace. Sadly, as I have now posted in 2 'negative' threads out of 173, folks are questioning my motives because I have some critical words to say about the changes? Isn't this website called 'Cruise Critic'?

jc <----- can't figure out why I didn't get cross examined by the "celebrity success", and I will try harder in the future.:p

Uncialman replies:

Well, cross examination or whatever you want to refer to my responding you as, was not necessary as it would have just turned into a 'he said - he said' about another line. In the 4 cruises that I have had with Celebrity, the thassolotherapy pools were in constant use whenever we were in the gym/spa area. Whenever I walked past the T. pool on the Zuiderdam, 90% of the time it was empty (I can remember on two occassions there being someone in the T. pool out of 14 days). I still compete in amateur body-building competitions and still play a few open tennis tournaments a year, so I work-out twice a day to try and keep myself in shape. Thus, I am walking in our near those areas on a consistent basis.

[uncialman]

Unfortunately, at the end of my short research studies, I am no closer than I was to understanding anything at all of, uncialman and, alas, I am quite dissappointed. :D

jc

Uncialman (lol) replies:

Well, I never said that all I did was cruise travel :o)

I am pretty well known on discussion boards and mIRC chat channels that are concerned with papyrology, ancient manuscript origins, furthering the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae, Early Patristic Theology etc as 'uncialman.' I am also known by my given name in scholastic theological debate circles, but alas, I received a slap on the wrist from HAL after posting my Zuiderdam review last spring.

So, sorry. :o)

[dakrewser]

Did Superstein and Uncialman purchase unlimited passes to this Merry-Go-Round?:rolleyes:
No, I paid for them. It's my secret plan to keep SS quiet about dress codes!

:rolleyes: -dave

[xpcdoojk]

Uncialman (lol) replies:

Well, I never said that all I did was cruise travel :o)

I am pretty well known on discussion boards and mIRC chat channels that are concerned with papyrology, ancient manuscript origins, furthering the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae, Early Patristic Theology etc as 'uncialman.' I am also known by my given name in scholastic theological debate circles, but alas, I received a slap on the wrist from HAL after posting my Zuiderdam review last spring.

So, sorry. :o)I am not meaning to stir up any stuff, honest, but if you were banned from cruise critic you shouldn't be posting under a new name. You need to ask for Laura's forgiveness and then you can post under whatever name you would like. If you are still banned you are technically in violation of the rules. I won't say a word, but you keep dropping a hint about something. I apologize if my guess on what the hint means is wrong. Anyone having theological debates would not want to be in violation of membership rules, would they?:D HAL doesn't slap anyone on the wrist in Cruise Critic that I am aware of. However the management of this website might.:D

jc

PS I agree that people get in the pool now that it is free, but when it was a pay pool they were mostly completely empty.

PPS body building, tennis, and ancient languages, you don't play Dr. Daniel Jackson on Stargate do you?:eek:

[Orcrone]

No, I paid for them. It's my secret plan to keep SS quiet about dress codes!

:rolleyes: -daveSo much for your secret plan.;)

[Orcrone]

I am not meaning to stir up any stuff, honest, but if you were banned from cruise critic you shouldn't be posting under a new name. You need to ask for Laura's forgiveness and then you can post under whatever name you would like. If you are still banned you are technically in violation of the rules. I won't say a word, but you keep dropping a hint about something. I apologize if my guess on what the hint means is wrong. Anyone having theological debates would not want to be in violation of membership rules, would they?:D HAL doesn't slap anyone on the wrist in Cruise Critic that I am aware of. However the management of this website might.:D

jcUncialman did not say he was banned from CC. He said that he received a slap on the wrist from the cruiseline, hence the name change.

[xpcdoojk]

Ah... professionally... they read his negative stuff here and punished his business.:confused: I am sure they will never figure out who he is now.:confused:

That is good, I will feel much better if I get into a theological debate with anyone in the future! :D

jc

[uncialman]

I am not meaning to stir up any stuff, honest, but if you were banned from cruise critic you shouldn't be posting under a new name. You need to ask for Laura's forgiveness and then you can post under whatever name you would like. If you are still banned you are technically in violation of the rules. I won't say a word, but you keep dropping a hint about something. I apologize if my guess on what the hint means is wrong. Anyone having theological debates would not want to be in violation of membership rules, would they?:D HAL doesn't slap anyone on the wrist in Cruise Critic that I am aware of. However the management of this website might.:D


jc,

I wasn't banned from the website, as I have stated in previous posts on this thread (I know, it's been a long one so no harm, no foul), I was called by HAL and was basically threatened to loose my status as a preferred group provider if I continued while using my full name (my nick used to be my full name). I'm not in violation of any rules, and at this point, I have probably given too much info. for my own good.

[uncialman]

Ah... professionally... they read his negative stuff here and punished his business.:confused:

Yeah, well, Revneal has some of the correspondence that went back and forth between HAL and me.

That is good, I will feel much better if I get into a theological debate with anyone in the future! :D

?

[superstein61]

Ekerr and Superstein have got a "thang" goin' on ;)

But it is nice to see you two getting along so well:) ! Was it the hour, Ekerr? You find Superstein to be "reasonable"?

Ooooo I don't think I can go that far athough I will say he is absolutely right about certain things:o . And I believe he may have met his match in Uncialman.
A Thang goin on ? :D LOL - I enjoy ekerr, she is willing to debate with an open mind.

And me reasonable. Dear Heather, you know I am always reasonable ;)

As far as meeting my match in uncialman - I really don't think so. He does have that certain dog with a bone characteristic - but that doesn't always lead to cogent arguments

[superstein61]

Heather-

I thought I went to bed last night at 10:30pm... hmmmm the gremlins must have taken over my computer!

I love Superstein, you know that! I've had some of my best arguments with him... ;)
:D :D :D Thanks

[superstein61]

I think Superstein got off the ride - awhile ago ;)
yep, I did. I think the horse is not only dead, but at the glue factory right now

[superstein61]

No, I paid for them. It's my secret plan to keep SS quiet about dress codes!

:rolleyes: -dave
We aren't due for another dress code thread for another week or two :D

[uncialman]

As far as meeting my match in uncialman - I really don't think so. He does have that certain dog with a bone characteristic - but that doesn't always lead to cogent arguments

LOL!!! Superstein, you obviously have a very distorted view of your ability to defend *any* position on this particular thread without having to resort to appealing to motives in place of support, fallicies of distraction, non sequitur inconsistencies, and, lest I leave the big one out, the old ad-hominem!

LOL! you are a character...

[superstein61]

LOL!!! Superstein, you obviously have a very distorted view of your ability to defend *any* position on this particular thread without having to resort to appealing to motives in place of support, fallicies of distraction, non sequitur inconsistencies, and, lest I leave the big one out, the old ad-hominem!

LOL! you are a character...
Whats that I hear - WOOF, WOOF, WOOF - bad doggy ;)

[uncialman]

Whats that I hear - WOOF, WOOF, WOOF - bad doggy ;)

*sigh*

So much for cogent argumentation and intelligent discourse...

[michmike]

jc,

I wasn't banned from the website, as I have stated in previous posts on this thread (I know, it's been a long one so no harm, no foul), I was called by HAL and was basically threatened to loose my status as a preferred group provider if I continued while using my full name (my nick used to be my full name). I'm not in violation of any rules, and at this point, I have probably given too much info. for my own good.


Read that last sentence .....and then give it a rest..

[uncialman]

Read that last sentence .....and then give it a rest..

Gee, michmike, I was going to and then you posted to throw your two cents in...

*sigh*

[Pudgesmom]

yep, I did. I think the horse is not only dead, but at the glue factory right now
OH, no! Not another large dead mammal!:D

Beth